ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Greyscale Kings Under Winterfell - Part VI: Stone Men
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- This video is part 6 of a series containing my theory for the upcoming book in the A Song of Ice and Fire series, The Winds of Winter, surrounding the secret of Winterfell crypts, and ultimately, the key to defending humanity against the coming onslaught of the Others.
I believe that Azor Ahai, the hero of the first long night was the male progenitor of House Stark, who was sacrificed, turned to stone with greyscale to become a statue and then resurrected through the weirwood by the white haired woman we see in Brans vision at the origin of the Winterfell heart tree.
This Grey King then established the line of House Stark, who after the long night built Winterfell to protect this sacred weirwood, while he and his warriors descended beneath the surface to sit a throne, becoming human statues to preserve their bodies for eternity, so they can wake again, thousands of years in the future when the Others return.
And it just so happens there is one more myth about statues returning to life in the series that I think George is using to foreshadow these stone kings of winter returning to life, seemingly with the help of a magical woman…
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• The Greyscale Kings Be...
Part I 💀 Stone Starks - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
Part II 💀 Stone Watchers - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
Part III 💀 Stone Heroes - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
Part IV 💀 Stone Gods - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
Part V 💀 Stone Blessed - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
Part VI 💀 Stone Men - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
Part VII 💀 Stone Knight - • ASOIAF Theory 💀 The Gr...
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Lord Stoneskin you never disappoint. Wow. I love everything about this stone kings theory. Do we know if Rickard’s, Brandon’s or Lyanna’s bones ever made it back to the crypts? IF they didn’t, could their empty tombs be what broke a pact or other magical binding?? The Others didn’t start amassing at the start of the series it had to have been some years before …
Thanks very much! Glad you’re enjoying the theory, It’s a good question, I think their bones were all returned to Winterfell all but I could be wrong? But I think your right that the others started returning around the events of Roberts rebellion, personally I think it was the birth of Jon Snow, the crossing of the fire and ice bloodlines that triggered not only the Others to return but also the dragons
Another piece of symbolism is the name of the weirdwood itself. A weir is a net-based trap meant to catch fish by blocking a stream. They catch the souls of mortals swimming through the river of time.
Yes very true, I have heard that in David Lightbringers theorising too
"Like a moth to a flame." I like the moth metaphor for the Stonemen. The idea of radical transformation via an intermediary stage, like a chrysalis, is in keeping with many classical notions of "re-birth"/"transformation". The "Cocoon as Tomb/Womb" is used in many other stories, as well, even Frodo gets wrapped up in one by Shelob.
I can't help but wonder if being a Stoneman also conveys some sort of flame-resistance, as a "beneficial side-effect"/underlying narrative purpose. It could be seen as a sort of natural armor against the elements/weapons, not unlike a turtle's shell for that matter.
Cheers!
Hey Karl! Yeah the Moth symbolism is very interesting, and the fact that moths fly towards flames reminds me of Icarus, who flew too close to the sun, plunged into the sea and drowned
This story is also meant to warn against hubris and pride as well, which is interesting as the stone men are said to be proud with the shrouded lord being proudest of them all
And I think your right, becoming a stone man would protect you from the deepest of winters, allow you to wield a burning sword and protect you from the army of wights as they wouldn’t be able to tear a stone man apart as they do normal humans
Thanks for the support mate! 🍻
Gregor Clegane the stone giant “roars like an animal” too just like the Titan of Braavos and the old man of the river
Great observation! I did notice this too, I think the whole roaring line of symbolism is very interesting, I need to look more into this, tried not to venture into a tangent haha
And Argoth Stoneskin, an actual stone giant, is said to be roaring outside the walls of old town as well I just remembered
Between this theory and Lightbringer making the comet impact theory pretty convincing I have a feeling very few people are living through the end of this and I predict a cataclysm that forces the survivors into caves.
Yeah I agree, it’s definitely a possibility, maybe that’s why they had to become stone as well, just to survive the end times and reawaken to rebuild the world?
@@eldric.stoneskin it's more that I'm getting the vibe of "all this has happened before and will happen again."
The magic only works when the stars are right but the stars being right brings global cataclysm kind of thing. There will be survivors but so few and scattered they only have vague legends a thousand years later when the magic meteors come again.
@@eldric.stoneskini assume the two of you communicate but he's doing a video on the Ironborn right now.
The legend of the river flooding and giving grayscale to the valarean army lead into the iron born believing they come from dead men sleeping below the sea.
@@eldric.stoneskin have you considered that the comet brought the greyscale in some kind of Lovecraftian panspermia event and that the black blood of the stone giants and oily black stone are the same substance.
It's like a cosmic grey goop infesting living things.
@@Loreweavver yeah that could be a possibility for sure!
Always a good day when i can start it with a calming accent telling me about a book ive read 10 times😂
😂😂
I'm really enjoying this theory, thanks for creating/uploading these videos ;-) Liked (obviously) and shared.
Your very welcome! Glad your enjoying it! Thanks for the support 🍻
Sacrifice for the algorithm gods, may they favour you sir
Thank you kind sir
Dude i love your analysis...you and Michael talks about stuff have made me think so much more deeply about a story I've already read 6 times...GRRM is truly a genius to make something that has endless new discoveries with every reread.
Thanks! Glad your enjoying the channel!
An interesting thread in this video is about how the Stone lord archetype is related to 'laughing' or being made to laugh. Here you suggest that Azor Ahai was the original Stoneman. Therefore that implies he was humourless, or didnt laugh. Let me offer that this provides an interesting contrast to the 'Fool' archetype. Theres a great video (cant remember by whom but it had a female narrator) that outlined the association of the 'Fool' archetype with Azor Ahai. It had something to do with Florian the Fool, being a fool, and him being an AA parallell. Hugor is another form of 'Azor' and when Tyrion takes the name Hugor, he is dressed in mismatched clothes like a fools motley. The word 'motley' references fools, and the word 'mottled' is often used on these undead characters. The theory goes on to state that the Fool archetype is foolish because he knows no fear - foolishly hubristic, to challenege the gods, or to steal magic from the gods in some way. This is Azor Ahai desiring the Weirnet, or the Comet, or various versions of the magic of the gods. That theory outlines Azor Ahai as a version of the Fool archetype - this greyscale theory outlines him, and his kind, as 'humourless'. Could this be a relevant parallell? Could it be that the Azor Ahai figure was originally a 'Fool' in that he desired too much, and make a grave error, resulting in the Long Night, or another apocalypse - and after that he sacrificed himself to the Weirwoods, and rose as a stoneman, now 'humouless' - to contrast his previous self. Maybe stonewights have a reduced capacity to feel antyhing - so they would crave someone to make them laugh, something that can tragically never be achieved again.
The video is by the disputed lands, it’s an amazing video, and she came to the conclusion that the drowned fool is an Azor Ahai archetpye too, and all the motley references and the grey transformations are referring to greyscale as well, it’s fascinating, because if the person who makes the shrouded lord laugh gets a boon, which is being chosen to receive his grey kiss and ornament his stoney court, the fool is the perfect person to do such a thing, and effectively be turned to stone
Another interesting point is that Florian the Fool is said to have had armour made of motley, and a special sword fit for a hero, who is associated with jonquil who he found bathing in water, giving us another female water deity associated with this hero
It also turns out the fool character in our real world was potentially based on ancient kings from the Merovingian dynasty who had a disease called “harlequin Icthyosis” which made their sling resemble stone, just like greyscale
Great comment by the way!
@@eldric.stoneskin Oh! Its come back to me now. Its also to do with the fact that the Harlequin character (the classic fool) is based on King Harle, who was a leader of the wildhunt, a procession of the dead, and thus he is based on Odin. So the Fool = Odin
@@umwha exactly and is also based on the Hellequin of the French wild hunt, who was a giant
And just for interests sake Harlequins love interest is Columbine, which in Italian means “little dove”
Reminding us of Dontos the fool, and his love interest Sansa who is also known as “little bird”
Been following this theory, and I'm riveted. ❤❤ You put so much work and research and thought into the videos...
Thank you! Glad your enjoying the series!
When eldric stoneskin drops I watch simple as that
It is known
Haha thanks very much! Hope you enjoyed!
@@eldric.stoneskin absolutely great theory and well presented
The Corpse Queen is tied to moons through her moon pale skin, just like the bronze sickle, a moon shaped blade the weirwood woman in brans vision uses, you think this could be the nights queen? Ps sick video bro, keep that shit up!
Yep that’s exactly right, great pick up, I’ve got this already noted for my next series, in addition to this the moon symbolism is really being suggested by George in the bran chapter where we see this weirwood woman with the constant references to the phases of the moon meant to indicate the passage of time
Heres an idea about the origin of greyscale. Your theory is that contraction of greyscale has the effect of giving the person the potential to be a super-wight. What if that is the original purpsoe of greyscale. In the Ancient era, humanity (and CotF) had men sacrificed to become wights, to do battle with the Others. Perhaps at that time, a human/CotF realised that normal wights were not enough - they decided to cast the ultimate blessing of stone. This enchantment empowered the ancient wights, making them able to fight the Others easily. Soon though, the enchantment showed that it had unintended consequences. The calcification was progressive, and soon hindered the wights. It also spread like a disease and began to leap onto the living. Humanities weapon turned against its creator once again.
So what I'm saying is that instead of a disease with unintended magical benefits, it was originally a magical benefit that unintentionally became a disease. It's wight-buff was its original form and purpose, the disease was a derangement of that uncontrollable magic.
That would be very George to do that yeah, magic always has a cost in his stories!
Man, this entire theory is so good, I feel like the book has been spoiled for me xD very well done
Haha cheers!
Many fascinating questions remain:
1. What is the Origin of greyscale? Does it function differently today than in the past?
2. Who was the original magical woman, and what magic did she do in the past?
3. Who will take the role of the magical woman in the present story?
4. If the last hero was AA, and is now a stoneman, how does this greyscale theory relate to his killing of Nissa Nissa?
5. Is this theory compatible with the 'Moon Meteors' theory ?
Great questions
1. It seems to be associated with water magic, and might have origin from the old gods, who are said to be gods of Forrest, stream (water) and stone
2. Following all the women opposite Azor ahai figures they all show us associations with water or ice, which is what my next series will be about
3. I’m unsure, but the closest parallel character to the white haired woman in the series is Lady Stoneheart
4. This is all speculation at this stage but he might have killed her in the process of gaining this magic, and if she was a water deity when alive, perhaps her ressurection made her the first female other? Frozen water being ice?
5. Definitely, and I think if the world did become an apocalyptic wasteland being undead and made of stone would let you walk amongst the carnage and maybe even allow him to approach the comet to make his special sword?
Loving this series, I'm going to be sad when it's done.
Being a Stone Man would likely have a few benefits. 1) Near immortality 2) Resistance to Fire and Cold 3) likely takes away the need to feed. But it does come at a cost: 1) Eternal Servitude to the cause 2) You xan no longer live a normal life and 3) you can bo longer pass on your family line (which is huge for the peoples of Westeros). So you have to be a tough soul to accept the tradeoffs. One may say, stone cold certain. And if there isba single family in Westeros that embody that, it's the Starks.
I honestly despise Catelyn. She got her family killed, as well as a bunch of others. But ehen she became Lady Stoneheart , she actually improved in my eyes; Also, her sense of justice is a firm as stone. I can respect that in someone who died
Yeah your right about the benefits of becoming stone to become the ideal warrior to battle the others and withstand winter, and I think the nights watch vows that these stone warriors swore to the Weirwoods when becoming a king nights watchman embody it perfectly, I will take no wife, father no children, hold no lands, I shall live and die at my post ect
@@eldric.stoneskin that is true. The Night's Watch and their oaths fit perfectly for those who would become Stonemen to face off against the Others. And if the Night's Watch brother who breaks those oaths are unworthy of the Stone Man "gift", so it makes sense to me that they get the ultimate punishment (death).
Excellent video my man 😊 my thoughts on the undying long life's is similar if not the same as the magic melissandre uses to prolong her life
Thanks very much! Yeah I think you might be right, do you think they’re using ice magic (hence the blue skin, blue heart in the table ect.) to prolong life in the same way Melisandre uses fire?
No I still think its fire magic cause they wanted to keep dany and her dragons unless the they where working with/for the great other
It will all come down to whether Sam Tally finds the information that he needs to know about "the horn of winter" in his possession considering Jon gave the horn to him. Also i am not jiving with the dragon at the sorrows having anything to do with winterfell, i think it was drogon, it would make more sense considering the shy maid was a way to get to Danny and Tyrion tricked young griff to head east and not west, danny's dreams with Quaithe warn her about that, "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east." i think there may be a land bridge between Esos and Westeros.
Yeah I don’t think Drogon flying over the Sorrows had anything to do with the Winterfell dragon, it’s just a parallel between the two locations meant to hint that the scenes are symbolically connected in some way
@@eldric.stoneskin Got you
RE the stoney-ness of the weirwoods and them sitting across the river of time: I'm pretty convinced that George is also playing with the idea of causality or fate. This is why Bloodraven tells Bran that he can't use the weirwoods to change the past. Its not that you *can't* intervene, but if you do thats what was always supposed to happen. Weirwoods, like stone men, are watchers.
I very much agree, if he affects anything in the past it’s already played out in the present, much like the Hodor incident
These videos are awesome!!!Thank you!
Glad you like them!
Awesome video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
"Heimdall kept the “ringing” horn, Gjallarhorn, which could be heard throughout heaven, earth, and the lower world; it was believed that he would sound the horn to summon the gods when their enemies, the giants, drew near at the Ragnarök, the end of the world of gods and men." if we follow parts of the norse thematic influences
Well done mate!
Thanks very much!
Maybe, the wolves will be the eyes of these blind stony men! That's why the Last Hero too had a dog! That's why all the Stark kings have their own personal direwolves!
I love these. I'm not always seeing exactly the same conclusion, but they really do emphasize connections I've missed.
Ok. So the Old Man of the River. It's a Weirwood, basically. The old man of the river of time. You could use Arya's crossing on the Two Headed Waterhorse for more support. I think you might also include the Lord of the Crossing with the Grey King/Old Man/Shrouded comparisons. All of these ideas seem to have ground in the idea of a Bridge of Dream over a River of Time, and a guard or psycopomp.
In the context of this video I'm seeing a potential link between your theory and that of Michael Talks. The Weirwood face under the Nightfort that "bridges" the frozen "river" of the Wall. It's basically an Old Man of that Wall Crossing. The Wall is a Shroud. It's beneath the watery Wall and in a Well making it sort of a Drowned Lord too.
I don't know yet if these are explicitly or thematically connected. But yes, the Undying both Glorious and Rotting play through the same theme. An odd and different element to that story that Dany plays through is in Vaes Dothrak. Where old and dead gods have been moved or imprisoned. Arya plays through the theme in Braavos with the Sealord statues and the separate structures of the HoBW and the island of forgotten gods. Beyond the Wall these locations I believe are the Fist and the Cave of the CotF.
There's something about this I know is right in front of me but I can't see it. I need to listen to this a few more times.
Yeah the black gate is interesting as it’s said this is what a man would look like if he lived 1000 years and never died, just like the shrouded lord ruled for a thousand years, and the grey king ruled for 1000 years and seven
@@eldric.stoneskin A thought I wouldn't mind your view on. An old idea I'm not sure exactly what to do with.
Mance travels down along the Milkwater after uniting the Wildlings. This seems to be a reflection of Garin the Great having united the Rhoynar to attack Valyria. The Watch seems to reflect the losses many cities suffered as they went. We have the note of a turtle in the attack on the Wall which seems to underline the connection between Rhoynar and Wildlings.
Stannis' arrival appears to reflect the dragons suddenly showing up and soundly defeating the Rhoynar resulting in Mance being burned in a cage in call back as well.
What I'm trying to figure out is who the "bad" guys are supposed to be here. The Rhoynar seem to be a clear defender/good guys. We're seeing stone trapped in water. The Wall falling might even serve as a flooding out of season. Is this attempting to tell us the Rhoynar was a negative force or the Valyrians? Mance is given the crow/raven visual which appears to draw lines between Garin, Mance, and perhaps the 3EC. Should we expect good/bad guys to be consistent or does it switch for each cycle?
Edit: adding Mother Mole's escape to Hardhome reflects Nymeria's escape and arrival in Sothoryos.
Wow! Yeah there are some very clear parallels here between the turtle, and dragon figure defeating the wildings, mance being in a cage while he watches his people become “enslaved” in a way, these are definitely not coincidence either but I’m not sure what to make of it yet tbh, I’ll have to have a think…
I also need to get back to you on discord too sorry, I’ve been very busy of late
To the algorithm gods
You are very close to convincing me. The only thing that makes me not believe it is the narrative place of these stonemen. Lets say the long night falls, and all our POV characters have to survive for a while. I can imagine many interesting ways the narrative can transpire. When do the stonemen and Azor Ahai wake up and start fighting? It cant be at the beginning of the Long Night .. if they just popped up in the middle it wouldnt be very interesting either. One of our POVs could blow a horn to actively wake them - but how would our characters know about all this ? They would be awoken by accident surely. Then theyd act as an army - possibly lead by azor ahai - and just come in and do all the work for our characters. The only way I can see this working is that we get like multiple years of our POVs surviviing the long night, and humanity is losing. When humanity is reduced to 1% of its former size, some characters such as Bran or Sam would drip feed us info to foreshadow the revelation about the ancient uses of Greyscale. Before the final climax, when the Others are at the gates, the stonemen can be woken then, as the Ace in the hole of humanity. Popping up to save the day at the last moment. Thoughts?
Yeah I’m not entirely sure how it will play out in the narrative but I think they’ll awake at a crucial point in battle for Winterfell, my thoughts at this stage and the subject of my next video is that Bran Stark is going to be the one that is controlling these giants in the battle, seated beneath the heart tree, his body protected by Theon (much like the HBO show) while he skinchanges the stone giants and becomes the knight he always dreamt of being, foreshadowed by the fact he has been skinchanging hodor and fighting wights beyond the wall. And maybe the three eyed crow is the original Azor ahai needing Bran to return to his original body hidden beneath Winterfell? Theres a lot more to this but it’s very interesting
@@eldric.stoneskin Yes, the Stonemen being directed by the Weirnet ( or the avatar of the weirnet, Bran) makes sense, since they did sacrifice themsleves to the weirwood trees. However, does this mean they are just bodies? Does nothing of their original mind remain? Or are their minds merged in the weirnet. Let me also question the use of the word 'giant'. I know 'stone giant' is a phrase that comes up alot. But these stonemen will be normal sized, no? They arent really even metaphorically giant.
@@eldric.stoneskin I wonder what the symbolism or message of the Stonemen is narratively? I agree that they are probably going to be the secret ace of humanity, being awoken at the last second in the Long Night, when all hope is lost. The collection of calcified heroic bodies, of men who gave their lives ... It reminds me of the Weirnet - a shared consciousness that posesses invisible but immense power. The Weirnet is a natural super-entity, seated within nature itself ... The Stonemen are an immortal collective created by humanity. They are pieces of human history. They must represent the human ability to collect our culure, our memories, and to make lasting contrubutions to our culture, our descendants. Accumulated bodies of self-sacrificed men, preserved as a power source. The Weirnet is immaterial, and the stonemen are solely material. So, in summary, the stonemen are the physical, human, counterpart or opposite to the Weirnet. Symbolically, the Weirnet represents the hippie idea of being one with nature, liberation from inculturation, rules, duty ... The stonemen, however, represent the glory of human culture, of conserving history, they represent the timeless commitment of oaths, rules, order, duty.
@@umwha I think they are giants in the same way hodor is a giant, just very tall people, as we hear from Aeron Greyjoy that “men used to be mighty” but “they have grown smaller now”
Martin is practical in his writing. Yes there is magic and yes there are Dragons but when there is an obvious answer; that tends to ring true. I really like this theory but greyscale is both a curse and disease regardless of origin. How this magically turns beneficial doesn't make sense to me. Does this happen instantly or is it a process as we currently understand it? Also, if Azor Ahai is "The" King of Winter under Winterfell with all his army of Stonemen then what exactly is the point of Jon Snow and the struggles of the men of Westros if all they need to do is blow a horn?
Yeah I think it is a magical disease that was weaponised essentially, if the Others started raising dead greyscale stine bodies as wights they’d be indestructible, might aswell do it before they do
And I think Jon Snow and the nights watch are one head of the dragon, Dany and her dragons are another and Azor Ahai and the stone kings are the third head of the dragon
And this my friends is why GRRM will never finish the story, he's too clever by far and written himself into knots of never ending self reference.
He’ll get there, with anything this large in scope, complex and well written it takes time
What are your thoughts about how age and immunisation work, and what the point is? Get greyscale as a child, and you survive, but get it as an adult and you go crazy and die. And with your addition - get it after death (?) and somehow the disease fully developes but you get no neagative symptom whatsoeevr (?). Whats the purpose? Like, it seems a bit convenient that the only purpsoe of greyscale is that it can super-power wights. I dont understand how a dieseae can progress in a dead body anyway - wights cant get other diseases, otherwise they should all have the flu and never heal. It must have been that in the ancient past, all children who were chosen to be raised as warriors were given greyscale (perhaps that is the reason that special warriors had to be chosen as children). This marks them, and immunises them. Those kids would grow up to be men who then sacrificed themsleves. Their dead bodies were already years satured with greyscale, so when wighted, the desired effects could emerge. (??). The stonewights must have had to keep seperate from ordinary people.
Yeah that a good question, and I potentially think the reason the bottom level of the crypts has been collapsed was to not only hide their existence but to isolated the Stone men on their thrones as well