High Vanadium / High End Steel vs Ceramic Sharpeners?
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- Опубліковано 6 лют 2025
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Just saying that Ol’ Uncle Randy could show us a thing or two with the Buck 110 on the back of his coffee cup.
A good habit to get into (once you're comfortable enough with the basics that you don't have to think about them) is to use the underused parts of the stone for concentrated work (heel, tip, etc). You get more fresh stone surface and wear the stone more evenly.
Ceramic stones don't exactly wear out. It's the type of sharpener that gets clogged rather than abraded
@@OwieczkinThey don't dish out but the surface texture gets worn out over time and they lose speed. From time to time they need surface re conditioning.
He is already using most of the stone. It's not a good idea to leave the stone with the knife to use every bit of surface because that increases pressure and cause metal fatigue.
Shapton Glass for me, works as well as diamond resin stones on most steels, although more of a mess, when sharpening with water..
Mixture of Kuromaku and Glass for me. I'd try some of the big Venev stones if I could get them here in the UK.
Perfectly functional edge. Most knives sharpened to mirror polish are going to lose a lot of that very fine edge quickly and drop back down to about where you have this knife now. Getting mirror polished sharp is fun, but almost not worth the time outside of social media glamour shots.
It took me a very long time to learn this lesson.
i've recently reprofiled my penguin, it was almost a polish, 20+ degree edge from factory
now, it looks fucking ugly, 300 grit diamond scratch marks, a big ass smile, mile wide edge bevel, my technique is ass pretty sure it's a slight convex
but damn does it cut like a fucking dream now. mirror polish sure looks nice, but it's pretty useless if you ask me, outside of straight razors of course
While it may be functional, what you said is not completely true and mirror polished doesn't equal sharp. So I do agree in a sense that mirror polishes are a waste of time. A lot of times steels actually start to get duller from polishing. They just can't take a polish. But with that being said, the sharper the knife is the longer it will hold its edge. There's plenty of testing videos on this channel and countless others that demonstrate and explain it. Let's say we score sharpness 0 to 100. 100 being sharp and 0 being a butter knife. Let's say his knife here is at 50 and another is at 100. Then Let's say each cut dulls it 10 points. The knife at 50 would be completely dull after 5 cuts and the knife at 100 would be at the sharpness of the knife that started at 50. Essentially cutting twice as much. Again mirror polish doesnt equal sharp. A knife with a 600 grit finish can be sharper then a knife with a 60k grit finish. Your statement is a bit confusing in the sense it sounds like your saying the sharper the knife the faster it dulls so spending time on a mirror polish isn't worth it. But the first isn't true and mirror doesnt equal sharp
@@Trolldaddy5 of course a sharper knife last longer but your assumption of a linear drop off in sharpness is faulty. That really fine edge will dull down to the functional edge sharpness much much faster. So if you were to plot a curve of sharpness with percent sharp on the y-axis and number of cuts on the c axis, the curve would have a steep slope for say the first 2 cuts (using your example of 10 above) and then decrease in the steepness of the negative slope as you proceed along the x-axis. This isDue to the apex becoming slightly thicker with use.
@@colossusX1 I was just trying to give an example that was understandable. And that's not even true. The fine edge is usually 40ish percent of the life in cardboard testing. Of course, it's gonna depend on geometry and material being cut. Also, I'm not sure fine edge and working edge is a real thing. There's only one edge that's starts to dull as soon as used. I think people only use those terms as an example, or a way to describe sharpness and feeling of the knife during cutting so people can understand. I guess it could start fine and then start to become rough as the teeth start to bend and fold or abrade away. It still is all dependent on the steel, geometry, and material being cut.
I have a couple of fixed angle sharpeners, but too many bits and pieces to fidget with! One is still unopened in it's packaging. I have been bench stone sharpening due to laziness of just thinking about setting up jigs and all the pieces for the more complicated sharpeners and the bonus benefit is bench sharpening is somewhat therapeutic, maybe that's why i have a toolbox full of bench stones.
Great stuff Pete. Have you ever taken much of a dive into different stropping products like stroppy stuff? Or stropping on different medias, like bass wood? Would be interested to see your take on those adventures
Thanks for the great video! I love watching your skills grow as we watch along with you!
Good to know that you can do it that way. Still, going to stick with my KME diamond setup, per your prior recommendations, even though the KME has paled over the last year with the TSProf stuff. I'm too lazy and arthritic to go back to stones these days. Keep up the good work you reprobate.
2:00 i might be the only one, but i start with the tip instead of the end of the blade.
At least if the knife has a decent belly. Only with knives that don't "belly up" towards the tip much, but seem the same curve from tip to end or that are completely straight i tend to go from end to tip like everybody on YT seems to do.
I did me a 'Pete' challenge with my k390 delica yesterday.8 minutes free hand from dmt xc to dmt xxf.i love how easy k390 is to sharpen from dead blunt to silly sharp
One thing I've learned about these stones is that they load quickly...even when you cannot see it...the eraser or mineral oil constantly will keep it cutting better
Yep, seems like half the steel they remove, is stuck in the surface. IMO, all Spyderco ceramics are finishing or touch-up stones. You don't want to use them for any amount of work on the edge. As soon as I got some decent water stones, I forgot I had two Spyderco stones. Just to slow, too slick.
Pete... try a sticky lint roller(for for removing pet hair ect..)Pulls the steel off the stones completely...!
Also.... I'm really enjoying these sharpening videos lately. Ty
Hi Pete. Just ordered one of those Worksharp 3 sided Benchstones today entirely because of your videos on it. It was on sale on Amazon, then grabbed a set of extra angle guides for it direct from Worksharp. Still wish they made an upgraded model with like Venev stones on it.
PS: I miss seeing Mrs Pete in videos. Hope you're both doing well. Also, my Mrs loved watching your video of updates about what you thought about products with the dogs. She loves dogs.
I could sharpen my s110v manix on med ceramic, a great edge for cardboard but it took a while. When I sharpen my maxemet native I use my dmt fine and a strop, quick and easy.
Just confirming what many of us suspected, that the higher wear resistant steels will require more aggressive abrasives to not be a total chore. That said, BBB has an interesting video where he sharpens using only a medium waterstone... I can't say his starting point was quite as dull as that Police 4, but by the end e was able to make S-cuts in paper towel, which I can't do with my full compliment of stones & strops! One thing I picked up though was his initial strokes, in the point-lengthwise fashion, which seems to afford more edge contact and, for me at least, more precise control freehanding the angle. After this, a few lighter strokes before switching to the widthwise strokes Pete uses, first edge-leading, then a few edge trailing (the trailing strokes seem to be ineffective with finer ceramics, however). While I'm STILL not slicing S's in paper towel, it seems to be improving the time spent on, and consistency of, my sharpening.
Solid ceramic with surface conditioning like Spyderco stones leave good results but tend to be slower than stones with ceramic aluminum oxide as particles. The name is similar but their structure is completely different. I bet Shapton 320 would work quite nice for these high carbide steels.
Diamond cuts fast but they may cause carbide rupture. That doesn't always happen but its a common issue that may cause low edge durability. If you choose diamonds its best to use it to grind steel and create the apex then switch for Al. Ox. or SiC stones to clean the burr and do finishing touches.
I would say thay the medium and fine Spyderco sharpen higher vanadium steels. The medium loads up so much its not worth it. It also seems to birnish more than it cuts. 3 to 4% vanadium is the highest id go. I use the fine more for burr removal if its needed.
On your stropping stoke going away from you, looks like you're lifting your angle towards the finish. Back towards you looks more consistent.
A little sharpening choil advice to every freehander, dont dremel it, buy a set of diamond files those tiny ones are sold almost in ever hardware store, they come in pouches and theres like 5 different shapes... that us a small vice you can attach on the side of your table will take care of all your choil needs
You can do it. But the end results even if you do it completely perfect on ceramics just won't give the performance diamonds do on these high vanadium carbide steels.
Oh. I'll ad for s45vn, at least according to crucible. It's formulated to completely or almost completely for only vanadium enriched chromium carbide. Rather than vanadium carbide.
So that's the explanation on why there is a pretty big difference sharpening that on ceramic. If you didn't know already.
My guy is trying to turn into Michael Christy lol
Great video, I was wondering if I should get the exact stone you used and the conclusion is no. I have my Diamond stone which is great, no need for this.
I swear S90V is easier to sharpen on ceramic than 20CV is. I have sharpened a handful of both dozens of times. Their micrograph differences are crazy. S90V is visually similar to S30V and its derivatives. M390 and its proprietaries look all webby in comparison. Chromium carbides are softer but add some property to high surface contact abrasion behavior in comparison to vanadium. Diamonds have them behave more similarly. Fixed angle systems also mask this. Your freehand journey is amazing as I followed you with a work sharp bench stone and field sharpener that I trust to this day. Ive actually progressed to 300-1000 grit ceramic and diamond rods to get that perfect edge at the grit and angle on any knife. Especially for weird geometry.
The only reason s90v would be easier is if it were heat treated to a lower HRc. Ceramic cannot abrade or sharpen the Vanadium Carbides in either steel. Period. Impossible!!!!
@@michaell397 you are wrong. It will pull the carbides off the soft matrix. The blade is bot made of carbide. This is why most stainless steel is only 61 hrc overall. Caramic is much harder than that.
@@quickslashgib5800 Sorry but this has been disproven. The carbides do not get pulled out. However this myth still persist. Even if it were true, the very carbides being pulled out would again, so away with the very reason to use them in what we call super steels. Either way, ceramic cannot sharpen them.
KnifeMaker retired after over 47+ years in the Craft, (Did I mention many years in Metallurgy studies)? (I put my stainless and semi stainless into service at 62-63 HRc by the way. M390 at 63-64 Magnacut soes best at 63-64 HRc)
Perhaps you should bread closer Dr. Laren Thomas's work in this field.
ive been pretty surprised by how much easier of a time I have had sharpening K390 than I expected. That said I think geometry must have something to do with it. It would make sense to me that a knife that is thicker just behind the edge (especially when reprofiling) would be harder to sharpen than one that is thinner regardless of steel composition. so s35vn with a fat hard use edge geometry would be harder to sharpen than K390 with a slicing performance geometry.
The edge seems a bit convex, witch is to be expected when freehand sharpening.
CArBIdE TeAr OuT
Now thats a kniof!
From what I understand, instead of sharpening you are removing carbide, carbide rip! You have to use diamonds so the carbide stays and you sharpen the steel altogether.
scienceofsharp "carbides in k390"
@@MB-jg4tr Yes! Good post. Much prefer dispelling the myths and rampant misinformation from people just repeating what they hear. We still have lots to learn there but the results with the soft Arkansas stone were especially surprising!
G'day Pete, I'm really enjoying this sharpening series mate. Yeah, I know; 40000 comedians out of work .... and I'm try'n to be funny; ............ but gotta say; ...you've left ........ no stone un-turned ; )
There's been something for everyone, beginner, novice, middle of the road and even the more experienced, I reckon.
You're quite right, by the contemporary book; in that, stopping mid stone is the way to go, to negate the chance of a "funky" tip. I will say though, it certainly can be done just as well, and even better, with a "follow through" off the edge. I'm sure you can imagine, it's a matter of easing up at the precise moment.
Also, totally agree, less reliance on stropping, .... sure you can load up on course sticks/paste, but really, all things considered, that last little bit, shouldn't take more than say 10 stokes a side ...... ISH !!!!!
Cheers Duke.
I think what you are proving with this whole sharpening series is that with patience you can sharpen any steel with any stone or system- AS LONG AS Y9OU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING
I like high strokes per minute, but really don't like any tip damage 😏
I very much enjoy your vid's Pete, buo you're barking up the wrong tree this time. Yes, it will become sharp on the ceramic, but and this is a huge but, it will not hold well. Why, Because the Vanadium carbides are more than twice as hard as the ceramic stone. You might as well be sharpening on a piece of glass.
While the ceramic can sharpen the steel matrix and will slice paper, it cannot sharpen the vanadium. You end up with none of the properties that the Vanadium gives. Waste of high tech steel, waste of time.
Take a look at the Poltava Metal Matrix CBN Stones I sent you info about. World's different than the rather poorly made Spiderco CBN Stones!
KnifeMaker/retired after over 47+ Years in the Craft
scienceofsharp "carbides in k390" is a great read which explains this with detailed microscopic images
Just get a diamond stone is pretty much all you need to take away from this video.
1200 grit
imo , for the type of steel you`re sharpening ( in this case K390) you should start off with a 325/400 diamond stone . But if youi`re going to use the spyderco med. stone (as in the video ) you (I`ve heard) you need to use more pressure . I`m not sure about that ,but the sorsce is very good.
I just did a touch up (first) on a Manix 2 light weight and got a razors edge from this stone(the spyderco med (the same you used in this video.) It has BD!1N steel . Works great ,imo.
I think using a combonation of the 2 stones will work great and get you done faster .
I bought a K390 along with my Manix 2 ,but have not sharpoened yet . I just stropped it and it`s crazy sharp , right now ...
Thanks for the nice videos .
Have you ever watched men behaving badly lol Martin clines and Neil from the young ones lol
introduced an unknown varible....should of checked the edge after the stone before the strop..now you dont know if it was a good toothy edge and you made it worse or better with stropping
…should *have* checked… 🤦♂️
Stop fussing with erasers and get some Bar Keeper’s friend. It’s the most effective way to unload these ceramic stones.
It might be more effective, but the eraser gets 90 percent of the steel loading in about 10 seconds, so it’s convenient mid sharpening
@@deathbyastonishment7930 Mid sharpening?
Lol. Come , now… if you’ve loaded up the stone so much during a sharpening session that you need to use an eraser midway - you might as well use different stones.
Bar Keepers Friend smells terrible.
Better than anything is a sticky lint roller... it pulls the steel off the stones completely
@@helterskelter156 my favourite way to sharpen is freehanding on small stones while I hold them in my offhand, so loading can happen fairly quickly on ceramics especially. If I’m sharpening two or more knives I will more than likely need to clean the stone during the sharpening.
Totally overstropped