Honda Element Stalling Part 2 Ivan to the Rescue!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- So before recording part 1 I had been talking to Ivan about my issues with this Element and this is what he suggested to do.
Amazon Store Goodies
www.amazon.com...
Topdon Phoenix Smart
www.topdon.us/...
#topdon #diagnostics #Picoscope #autorepair
You forgot to say "No Parts Required"! Ivans favorite fix right here.
Except a valve cover gasket, tube seals and a couple dabs of rtv.
Excellent job! It looks like you are on the right track. I would try a PCM reset I find on Honda's that clears all the fuel trim memory. I would also check the oil and make sure it's not full of fuel. Thanks for another great video!
Lol 😂 this is your best friend!
I really like Ivan. Probably my top UA-cam channel ever, follow him from the begging..
From couple months also following you too. And I find your videos very interesting and educational also.
Keep the good work and thank you.
Was an Acura dealer tech. Exhaust valves always get tight on these higher mileage Hondas. I use to run through them by feel and only adjust the ones with zero lash. The rule of thumb I’ve always used for Hondas is to look at my map voltage to be under 1 volt. Anytime I would have right valves I would see map voltages over a volt that would bounce around pretty rapidly.
@dxxxm231 just for my understanding, with the correct valve adjustment MAP voltages should be over a volt a volt? If you don't mind can you clarify it? Confused on the last part "voltage that would bounce around pretty rapidly".
Ha nice work on the valve adjustment Jake! NPR repair 😎
I'm wondering if the engine oil got diluted with gas when it was flooding itself out before the valve adjustment? I would change the oil and see if the fuel trims get back closer to 0% 🙂
I was going to suggest that too but ol' Ivan is on his toes as per usual. Lol
I said the same thing on his last vid.. It could be sucking fumes from the crankcase.
he wasnt getting a vacuum dip on the cylinder scope tests..... @@johnz8210
That’s what I said first video.
One or more exhaust valves are burned due to incorrect valve lash and uncombusted gas is leaking into the exhaust, it needs a valve job.
Hello Jake this is rmechanico I want to tell you your videos are great and I can honestly say that there are a few cars that can humble you I'm a retired technician and I think it was a great idea to get a second opinion these cars can humble you do not let it get to you if you need help ask for it sometimes two heads are better than one Don't let it get to you bro You're a wonderful technician I have watched you do amazing work cheer up bro
One thing you also gotta consider when watching fuel trims is your evap system. A leaky evap solenoid or during purge your trims can be off a bit either way, positive or negative depending how much vapor is in the canister.
I said the same thing.. but you would think it would throw a code for that
@@calholliI think only if it has a fuel tank pressure sensor the computer can detect the issue to raise code.
This is why I didn't like the MAP reading. Less vacuum means more airflow to the computer which translates to more fuel. The A/F sensor is seeing a rich condition, telling the computer to cut back...
Excellent work! An oil change will probably normalize your total trim. Pinch pcv hose and see if trims change
The initial start up, was all it took to convince me that the valves, nailed it.
A little too much clearance is better than not enough!
In hindsight... never assume it's just one problem!
At this stage i think you are on right track... probably from long time they worked out of specks, and damage itself and seats plus more heating because are exhaust valves...so, leak test and boroscope to check that.
Great collab. Ivan is such a humble, intelligent human. Super pumped for this.
Those exhaust valves were pretty tight.! They are prone to sink in the valve seat with the heat, however the intakes don't seem to have that problem. I really think
you fixed it! Put some miles on it, and I think those fuel trims will stabilize . Blessings.
Wassup Jake! The “I need Caleb” got me bro! 😂😂 Trust me I know the feeling! On these engines only the exhaust are normally tight whenever you have to adjust the valve clearances. I check both to be safe but I normally only end up doing the exhaust. The map sensor voltage normally gives it away. Anything above 800mV is usually an indicator of tight valves. You’ll more than likely see random misfire codes as well. They’re super solid engines aside from that though. Glad you got it figured out!
Hey man! How was your ASTE experience?
@@autodiagyt I enjoyed it bro! I really enjoyed meeting some of you guys that I’ve ran across on UA-cam! I need more programming experience tho! I suck at that! 😂
Gotta say I struggled watching you adjust valves. You're brilliant with diag. but... Bend the feeler gauges as needed. They are inexpensive and a few sets are nice to have on hand. drove me nuts you didn't take the tiny bit of time to line up the timing marks on the cam gears. maybe you did. I've been at this for 40 years. Learned a lot from you. Think I might have hooked up a fuel gauge from the start to check for a fuel pressure drop when cold and a scope on the coils to see if there was an ignition drop out. Haven't watched part three yet and I'm often wrong on these videos because sometimes you guys have already done tests I suggest.Still learning over here and looking forward to part 3. Thanks for all the videos. I am learning so much.
A five gas would be great right now. is it possible that the downstream is playing a part in the fuel trims on this model.shes a tricky one 👍👍
Ivan is extremely important talented, plus kieth DeFazio, Eric O too
Great video, thank you, you can check the spark plugs and cylinders to see if they are leaking
Seems you got the stall problem fixed, Jake! Seems you're getting gas fumes from somewhere. Like Ivan said below, you probably should change the engine oil (IIRC, he had a similar problem a while back, that cleared after the oil change).
Look for stuck pcv valve (behind ps pump), dirty throttle body and/or dirty IAC sweeper. Hugely common on Elements. Up to you. Scan tools are great but basic maintenance is always needed.
yep, sometimes techs get so caught up in the scan tool data, they forget to check basic things . tunnel vision on the scan tool. sometimes you have to put the scan tools down, and put your hands on things, and the problem shows itself.
as far as the valves, they are a maintenance check with that many miles, so checking the lash on the valves early on may have eliminated some issues early on. also 70 psi on the in cylinder pressure transducer,? that isnt right.,.
Check the oil to see if it has gas in it. That can cause the fuel trims to stay lean.
The exhaust valves on Hondas get tight. They get hot and actually suck up causing a tight valve, intake will be fine or slightly loose. Valves should be somewhat ticky. Hondas with over 200,000 miles we often see it. Start up cold you will see random misses also rich trims
Only part of the problem, Good call Ivan. I agree, the long term shouldn't be more than 7% rich or lean. Diag needs to focus on fuel trims now.
I saw a few comments, introduce a vac leak and see if system responds - good idea, but also have a look at EVAP system for fuel vapours as possible reason why fuel has to be cut back. Is the oil contaminated from fuel in there?
I wish you had taken an Intake Vacuum Waveform before you did the valve adjustment, you would have seen the problem at the top of each wave since the exhaust valves were out of time, meaning closing late and allowing more pressure into the intake before the intake valve opened, which in turn would have robbed some vacuum at the bottom of the wave showing a problem at both ends, although we may not see a problem at the bottom if they are all about the same, weakness that is. The accuracy of this effect also depends on the setup of the vacuum transducer assy. Thanks for all your videos.
How do valves become too tight when the adjuster does not move, the valve beats its way into the valve seat and becomes a tighter fit to the rocker arm, so you should look closer to see if the valves are sunk a bit with your boroscope and compare the very tight to the not as tight to see how far they stick out away from the head chamber? Also another post valve adjustment intake vacuum waveform ought to be captured.
You may still have map sensor issues they alot better but I seen it jump to little bit over 4psi..small deviations will affect fueling if it's speed density ..unplug Pcv to see if any changes is fuel trims and evap purge for leaking valve ...Pcv may be better disconnecting hose from manifold and plugging manifold hole
Fuel trim was still varying as you drove down the road, intake manifold gasket might fix it the rest of the way.
I saw on your scanner that Your idle learn is not completed. Clean your throttle/iac and try to relearn it for your stalling issue. I know that doesn’t help the fuel correction while driving but if you have no other issues and you just don’t like the number, you need to consider the evap system playing a role in trimming during the purge process of course when it’s warmed up. Block the purge line from intake to see if it changes. An oil change would be on my list after all. Good luck
Holy $#!T Ivan!! You changed your look, and your accent!
🤷🏻♂️
I have seen where someone installed cheap ebay injectors. The injectors have a different flow rate then oem (spray more fuel). So when you start the car it is in open loop and spraying too much fuel, but once it goes into fuel control the ecm reduces injector on time to compensate for the rich condition.
While sitting in drivers seat at operating temperature viewing fuel trims note where their at then pump the brake pedal like 15 times and observe fuel trims. Should go lean as vacuum is introduced,then a short time the trims go back to normal...hope you understand!
Worried about the intake manifold pressure, look into it some more.
I can't believe you're adjusting valves as if it's a lawn mower . That's crazy
Well mister jake Ivan sometime give up as well ( Land Rover)
So don’t fell bad .
Not of your guys are so persistent that why I watch your all videos .
I know the comments were lit up with the valves, but I don't see how valves can be an issue when cold. If anything, that would cause a problem when hot, since the lash goes away when it heats up. They don't get looser with heat, so if no lash cold, there is more chance to hang open when hot. So what am I missing?
I was expecting an OEM O2 sensor to fix it. Not valve lash, but, not 100% confirmed fix yet either.
For some reason valve lash on this engine are tighter when cold. The reduced lash on the K24 is a well known problem.
@@scrappy7571 Seems it by the comments, but not something normal. Unless the cam supports grow and cause more last when hot? Weird... but sure someone has an answer.
I would guess the alloy head expands when hot and the valves move away from the cams. Definitely odd, and the old push rod engines the lash was set hot. The slant 6 we would do running.@@inothome
It seems on these engines from what I have seen most of the time it’s always the exhaust valves that get valve seat wear. It should be #1 compression stroke you adjust all of #1, intakes valves on #2 exhaust valves #3 then rotate the motor to #4 compression stroke you adjust all of #4 intake valves on #3 exhaust valves on #2.
Also looking at the video longer the threshold is positive or negative 15 percent so if gets that high for a period of time it will set fuel trim codes. Check the basics; exhaust restriction, purge valve, egr valve etc. Curious to know what you find.
@ 19:06 observe your Calc LD and you Manifold pressure. Both incorrect for that rpm and throttle angle. This is why the trim's are negative. You should not have almost 50 percent load at 11 percent throttle angle with zero vehicle speed. Way to keep to it. Great work Jake!!! Time to test what is causing the high intake pressure.
The ac compressor is on.
Yes dirty throttle body👍🏿
One more thing forgot to mention can cause fueling issues Is power steering pressure switch.. may not be that common fail but worth checking
yes my friend not to sure there like you say if you had days it was good may not have been a fix or there are 2 issues cold start and over fuelling one you may have fixed but still those fuel trims look wonky
Funny intro!
upstream 02 sensor, do not use a none OEM sensor , these cars can be finicky about certain non-OEM parts and O2 sensors are one of them, the upstream do affect open loop. test with a used known good sensor if you have one.
It was replaced with a denso which is oem I believe.
My daughter's '07 CR-V had 327k before she sold it and as far as I know, it never had a valve clearance check/adjustment.
Yeah a lot of people never have it done.
Typically intake gets loose and exhaust gets tighter. Even I adjust hondas I go high on exhaust and low on intake
why does intake get loose? weakened springs?
@randy1ization not sure on the intake but I was "told" by a machinist exhaust valve seats wear causing that but I'm no machinist
Just bend the feeler gauge in this instance to do it right.
just bend the feeler at 90 degrees.
Grasias
I'm curious to know what the thread pitch is on the valve adjustment screws. Was wondering if you could add a visual element to adjusting the valves, or even do it purely visual. If the pitch is .75mm, (a likely guess?) then that is .030in per turn. For .010 that would be 120 degrees, .012 is 144 degrees. Turn screw in till it touches, then back off 120 degrees? Tighten the nut, and double check with the feeler gauge.
Maybe if you did enough of them you could do it that way pretty easy but I’ve not done it since I was 17 lol
At a minimum, it would be useful to visually check the screw position to see how much you moved it. If the math above held up, then .001 is 12 degrees turn on the screw. That would be fairly easy to judge, I suspect. Your video is great. Before messing with the math, I was comparing video frames of the first exhaust valve before and after adjustment to see how much the screw turned! I think the last valves I played with was on an old worn out snowblower, where I ground about .010 off the back end of an exhaust valve that wasn't fully closing anymore. @@autodiagyt
it went into closed loop at 113f.. seems odd.
Not for a wide band. The heaters get them up to temp fast and then they can start controlling.
Try introducing a vacuum leak and see if the long term trim even responds then you can go back to where the extra fuel is coming from 🤔
This is a map engine. It will compensate for the leak unlike a maf
possible gas in oil ? since been running rich for awhile comming through pcv system
Hey great video I really enjoy watching and learning from your channel. I just have a question how do the valve lash get tighter instead of looser with mileage. I would think that a higher mileage engine would exhibit looser components from the metal wear as opposed to the valve lash getting tighter. Just a bit confused as to why the exhaust valve lash was tighter?
Overtime the valve face wears into the seat reducing the stem to rocker clearance.
Hey thank you for the response and detailed explanation, makes sense now.
I'm still thinking that the Lambda sensor is lying and the car is suffering a lean condition, not rich as indicated by the lying sensor. The only way to verify this is by taking an independent tailpipe measurment using a 5-gas analyzer. Hope you can borrow one to do the measurement.
I’m not in an emissions state so it’s extremely rare for someone to buy a 5gas just for diagnostics. I don’t personally know anyone with one.
I'd try unplugging the second o2 after the converter. Maybe it's reading slightly to rich and the car tries to conserve the catalyst material by not flooding it with gas?
I thought he already replaced the sensor in the last vid, what are the chances of getting 2 bad sensor in the same way? Close to zero. Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I remember
@@hhn2002 Usually the downstream sensor (the one that was changed) is for monitoring the CAT efficiency, even though it reacts to wide open throttle and deceleration events. Upstream sensor, on the other hand, is for monitoring oxygen concentration and adjusting fuel trims accordingly. That's why we need an independent measurement to verify its integrity.
I must be missing something.. traditionally adjusting valves involves rotating the engine so certain cylinders are in the proper synch to have the valves closed..
Yes you have to rotate the engine for the different cylinders
Wondering if injectors where changed, wrong size ? What was visual? I'm sure you checked o2 sensor already .
They look original or have at least been in there a long time.
i think that the valve seat are very dirty from not closing could be very pitted now and the fuel is to old in the tank ,
Pine hollow !
DID HE SAY PINE HOLLOW DIAGNOSTICS.!.?> lmao
😂😂😂
Don't most cars need a few driver cycles to sort out/learn changes to the car? You might need to dive it every day for a week to get it to finally settle into it's own rhythm.
Jake, did you adjust all of them on No1 TDC. Because that is not how you do it. You only adjust the ones that are on the low points, then turn it until No2 is on TDC and adjust the rest.
No I rotated it. The procedure tells to to rotate and which cylinder to do next. All of the intakes was 0.010 clearance and all of the exhaust had at least 1 really tight valve.
You don't have to put it at tdc to adjust valves on a Honda. You can put the cam on base circle for the cylinder you're adjusting and go in a line instead of jumping around following the firing order
That's just the complete dummy proof way of doing it, for noobs who don't know what they are doing. You can just do like he was showing and just make sure the cam lobes are nowhere near the rocker. The reason for putting each cylinder at TDC is just so you can do both intake and exhaust at the same time-- but you don't have to do it that way. granted-- it's the fail safe way to do it if you have any confusion about it.
Trims going so far negative it's starving it for fuel. Honda's have so many different engines if someone installs the wrong O2 sensor ( wrong engine code ) they will do that. Been there done that.
Wonder what fuel smells , dont know if it had alcohol , pcm strategy mode . Does pcm have fuel trim reset? All pids was normal as you could sees except trims, pcm?
Yes I reset the trims and the pull back down
@@autodiagyt best video yet, ect,baro / map ,o2 ,mas, is all good has me Sherlock on this one. I did see when in burn line on scope turbines come and go from valve not sealing, but that's done, did you scope it again to see burn line. I had exhaust valve not sealing burn cat out from raw fuel out. This is a the best yet video.
@@overload3996 oh man I forgot to scope the ignition waveforms again.
I watch your O2 S2 Downstream sensor and compared to what you were seeing with your short term fuel trim. They are inversely corrolated. When downstream O2 goes up toward 0.9volts, the ST fuel trim goes negative. When downstream O2 goes down toward 0.1 volts, your ST fuel trim goes positive. There are 2 problems. 1. You said you have WIDE BAND O2 sensors. But the voltage output for the downstream is identical to the range for a narrow band sensor, .1 to .9volts.
2. I always thought the upstream O2 was the primary input for the PCM to determine fuel trim. In the numbers in your video it does not appear that way. Your upstream numbers are measured in milliamps. There is very little change in the milliamps. Typical wide band millamps vary from negative 200mamps to positive 200mamps. Your numbers are much smaller than this . In addition the lambda number also does not change up or down very much.
Is there anyway you got either the wrong sensor for the downstream, or it is the right sensor, a narrow band, and the ST trim is acting correctly, or is it possible the wiring for uptream and downstream sensors is switched.. Maybe the ST trim for a Honda is supposed to work based on the downstream O2. Something here needs investigated further. See the video for yourself.
Downstream is a narrow band.
@@autodiagyt i wonder what your ST fuel trim would be ,just for a test, if you disconnected the downstream O2. Would it default to 0.45 V and stay steady.
the low vacuum concerns me. did you look for dirty throttle body? also yes fuel saturated oil. its speed density so low vacuum itll command more fuel then have to correct by pulling fuel to achieve lambda.
you can try to substitute a known good map value and see what happens to the fuel trims
BEST OPENING EVER!!!
Lol it was approved by the man himself before filming it.
wild-ass guess.... #4 injector is leaky? but I guess when you did the on car flow test, it would have shown up as a pressure drop when the fuel pump shut off. so maybe not.....
Can anyone tell if Alldata supports Japanese vehicles.....or where can I get service information
I always just put the Vin number in and if alldata has that vehicle listed then it covers it.
Jake i live in centreville alabama and work in alabaster where you at in bama
Guntersville
Update?
Part 3
Is that low vacuum normal for that engine 🤔?
also 70 psi on the in cylinder pressure transducer?
I think you have a fuel pressure fluctuation.
Steady pressure while running.
ya gotta remove the shirt and put a head lamp on. then it might be more realistic lol. tight valves change valve timing just a wee bit and add in phasers it will increase the egr effect. egr leans it out fuel increases to compensate. add in engine wear and well used sensors this may be the best it gets
its rich in.closed trottle. and normal.under accelaration
dirty throttle
Where is your Caleb 😂
intro needs to be done shirtless
Put some fresh gas in and see what happens.