Hi Chris, I have randomly watched your output over the last couple of months and I have come to realise that your information and advice is very considered and informed. You certainly leave no stones unturned as you calculate your needs from the boat you have built and the home you are building. I have plans of living on the cut myself and will certainly be incorporating many of the excellent problem avoiding solutions you have used, as I create and personalise my new home and I'm sure many others will also benefit from your research into cost, value and returns from virtually all aspects of your build and your considerations on future add-ons or replacements. Many thanks
One of my early vids Alex so not one of my best. The thought process is there for batteries and I'm pleased you found it useful. A dry subject but the homework is there. Thanks for the comment and have a great week.
Thanks very much. That’s praise indeed considering those you’ve discussed it on the Tube. I plan to do another one about the whole battery setup when the battery system, solar and all that electric stuff is finally decided. Thanks for watching.
@@chrismears-inslowtime The results of your research is in line with my own research w.r.t. an off gritt system at home. The basics remains the same. Regards.
Hi Chris. Thanks for such an interesting and informative vlog on the batteries. Never found these kinds of comparisons so well presented before - learned a lot about not only the "technicalities" but also the need to cost the initial decision over time and the likely power demands they'll need to meet. Some good info which has implications for even our own leisure battery decisions. Thanks for an excellent vid. George and Trish -- CaravanningMacs.
Thanks Trish and George. I’ve learnt a lot researching and doing the vlog. I had a meeting last week about the whole battery system. I’ve got some more thinking to do, but the wiring starts this week, so I can’t hold out to much. I’ll extract the useful information from the meeting which was very useful for me and I’m sure those who watch. Thanks again.
Thanks very much. I’ll be adding to this content when I’ve finally decided on the setup, brand and solar stuff. Hopefully, it won’t be long. Thanks for watching.
They or it is going in the electric cupboard. At least that's what I think. One battery! I'm going to do a vlog on it as this set up is something that could help others. I certainly learnt a lot researching it. Thanks Rob.
Very nice overview! One thing that you left out is that there are a few different lithium battery chemistries, with quite different behavior characteristics - Lithium NMC (lithium nickel manganese cobalt), LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate), and LTO (lithium titanium oxide). NMC has been the traditional chemistry used in most batteries, including (up until very recently) almost all electric vehicles, and this chemistry seems to be what you were describing as far as (paraphrase) "if you discharge it deeply and repeatedly, you will materially reduce the life and capacity of the battery". However, LiFePO4 batteries are now coming on quite strong, and they have a couple of key advantages over NMC batteries, especially for RV and narrowboat folks. 1) They retain more of their capacity over a much longer period of time, even with fairly deep discharging, and 2) They are MUCH safer in the event of an accident/fire/electrical malfunction - Lithium NMC batteries tend to misbehave in spectacular ways if badly damaged or severely abused, which can ruin a boater's day.
Thanks for the additional info. At the time, I was getting lead acid batteries, I think without looking back. I ended up with Lithium LiFePO4 from mastervolt. Exactly the reasons you stated. Never revisited it as such, although that video is coming in the near future. Thanks for the comment and have a great week.
🔋 Hi Chris. I can’t say I’m normally interested in batteries but I just love the way you explain things with added information e.g. countries where lithium is mined etc. They say you learn something everyday…… and I have …. you had my attention to the end of your vlog. Cheers for these vlogs, look forward to next weeks 😊
Thanks Jackie. Was expecting to take a hit this week as it is a dry subject and everyone has their viewpoint on what is right. Hopefully, more boaty next week.
I agree Chris. I have gone for lithium as part of my build. Cycle numbers alone swayed it for me. A solid solar system will also benefit. I do acknowledge expense though.
I really like your vlogs. As a person with an analytical head, I enjoy following your logic and assessments. We are in a position to place an order for our sailaway this year. We have been discussing battery options and, looking at total cost of ownership, lithium is the way to go. My logic, a bit like yours, is that we have created a budget and cost expectations (with a suitable float) and if we build the cost of lithium to that, it’s then covered in the initial build cost whammy. This is more palatable than a retro fit when we come to replace batteries later. I can ensure the ‘electrical cupboard’ is properly configured (batteries inside boat etc). Ok, a bit of fuzzy logic but we can afford the hit now and may not be able to afford the hit later. I’m sure though when we get to the actual purchase stage, I’ll be engulfed in doubt again due to the expense 😀
Thanks for the comment. It’s the future cost that will concern me. My plan is to put money aside each month for that rainy day when I need to buy batteries again. It’s going to be a strict regime that I will only delve into in absolute emergencies. I think on limited money, that will be a starter for 10. Review in a few years time. Thanks for watching
Great exposition on a relatively complex issue. One thing I notice , is that you are having a boat built , so you can ensure to have installed the complex management system required for lithium , special charger etc. This would not necessarily be the choice for an existing boater who would have to contend not only with the extra cost of lithium batteries but a charger and management systems because the charger for lead acid cannot cope with charging lithiums.
I agree Glenn. I didn’t touch on the management system as I would assume that people, if wanting to go down that route would conduct their own research. Assumption is the mother of all **ck ups as we say and that is true. Perhaps, in hindsight, if I was doing this video again, I would mention it. Some I know have got around the issue somehow using a joint system. Don’t ask, I’m too thick!
One thing that has not been mentioned is hot water and electric cooking. In the summer with lithium you can run a 1kw immersion heater and when the sun does eventually come out the solar will replenish it. You can not really run 1Kw devices on AGM batteries for very long as they run down super fast when you do this, maybe if there wasn't a cloud in the sky and you had enough solar you could chance it. I think that is the big difference. Lithium will get you through the cloudy days a lot better than AGM.
Thanks for the comment Ian. In short, No. BUT, I did find out that a hybrid marine engine, add £30k to the price when you buy the batteries set up. That price can be adjusted dependant on the batteries. Also, to have that amount of batteries takes up space. If they are lithium, that space is inside. Lead acid - a lot of room in the engine bay. Also that would mean the gas locker at the front would need to be used as a gas locker instead of where mine is, near the galley. If you consider the price and that is within your pocket's reach, the design of the boat would need to match. I would imaging, to retro fit a hybrid engine for me now, I might as well buy a new, but cheaper boat. I hope that answers the question?
Very interesting to see the thought process Chris. I think Lithium will be the standard for quite some time to come. The current nervousness of its future reminds me very much of the 'peak oil' stories of the 1990s which havent really been borne out. Forecasts are very much built on current (pardon the pun) reserves and dont allow for future discoveries. For example, while drilling a geothermal well in Cornwall recently, they discovered the water extracted commercial levels of lithium. A lot can happen in battery chemistry or extraction technology in 20 or 30 years especially if its driven by necessity as demand for lithium grows. I reckon your big initial sting is worth it in the long term.
I’m just reading about the ‘Peak Oil’ stories as it happens. Lithium is new and I’ve gathered there still isn’t much science in the academic study. It’s a bit of guess work and people trying to manipulate the commodities market. It’s all interesting stuff. Thanks for the comment Rob.
Sadly in Aus, we don’t have canal boats, so we’ve had to settle for the caravan instead. We have a small teardrop variety and happily paid to have a lithium battery to afford us a degree of freedom. A key point that you didn’t mention that was part of our consideration is that 1x120 Ah lithium battery = 2x 100 Ah AGM.
Another great and well thought out video. I am thinking of doing the lead carbon and see how they pan out. I think most electrical usage is at night time with lights being on or TV being on etc. In the day time the kids will be too busy running about the boat and looking at the nature passing by. Phones and laptops will be charging while the boat is moving and I think the main issue to be looked at is how much drain there will be in the night time with lights etc and fridge going, maybe a water heating pump. I have also been looking at making some low profile wind generators to fit atop the boat to get limited power in the night time.
Thanks for the comment. The wind generator: there was a company at Crick a few years ago. I looked at them as a possible option for the winter. Solar, principle recharge capability in the summer and wind in the winter. For me, there was only so much I could research and prepared to invest. It might be something for the future. You’re right about night time usage. I’ll have a fridge and separate freezer. Tele, rarely on when I’m on my own, nor lights as I’m a tight……individual. Carbon would have been a choice, had I not agreed financial settlement. Let’s see in a year or two, what works and how I’ve had to change the way I live in order to get the best living setup.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Question, is the battery management and inverter system different for both lithium and lead batteries or could someone just swap out the batteries with little problems?
@@DEmma1972 not sure about inverter but simple logic would suggest it just deals with electrical power so regardless it just upgrades 12v into 24v. I do know the management system for lead acid and lithium is different. From what I read, Gel is different to AGM and flooded lead acid and lithium needs it’s own system. I’m not an authority on anything to do with boats although 80%+ sure on what I’ve stated. Carbon, Cruising the Cut did a vid on it as he has Carbon: Again 80% as I don’t keep up to date on his channel.
@@DEmma1972 Tom Dunn in the comments, states the inverter needs to be able to match the power you need or it’ll kill your batteries. I think I knew that but he makes a good point.
I bought 4 x 310 grade A cells - put on a 120amp blue tooth BMS and it all fitted in a 130a lead acid caravan polypropylene box I lined with dense neoprene foam - I put a thin insulator between each cell and a 18mm ply on each end then strapped the cells together with massive cable ties- the buss bars are from Aliexpress rated at 300a and the 1.5 full sine wave inverter is connected via 25mm square copper cable and a 120 heavy duty relay and fuse. Its been running over a year flawless
I think, if I had taken notice at school or even had a small amount of interest in batteries, until now I might add, I may have done something similar. I know enough of the basics and I’m continuing to pick stuff up. Funny how your interests change when elements of your life changes. Good to see innovators like you doing it different to succeed. What do you use the power in?
@@chrismears-inslowtime I use the battery in my 3 ton Autostratus 75 Camper - Its fed by a 280watt solar panel and a 20a DC to DC Renogy charger from the alternator and on hook up a 30amp charger - it lets me use things like a toaster/kettle/coffeemakers & hairdryer as well as the usual stuff. I have made quite a few batteries for one man vehicles and ebikes with both Lifepo4 and Li-ion - I taught myself as needs arose and kind of grew with the technology - I recommend a blog by Will Prowse who does some great posts on here - I got a Battery Management System that talks to my phone which is kinda fun - Of cause you can get a 100ah lithium battery for about the same price - if you don't go lithium I understand Lead carbon batteries are good.
I’ve heard of Will Prowse. He does interesting stuff. Your set won’t work for me as I don’t need a hair dryer!!!! All that solar is yet to come as is the battery management system. Just waiting for the battery to arrive before I create a light hearted look at the electric stuff. Not sure how to make it light hearted though. Thanks Trev.
@@chrismears-inslowtime I use an EpEver MPPT charge controller - I've used several on a number of projects like an off grid workshop - was astonished it was used to mix the cement and cut the wood for a near by house build and brew tea for the workforce!
Hi Chris seems like you have a goood start on solar system,only thing i would share is that with lithium, you have to keep them warm in winter when charging and that would mean insulating the battery room more and also the floor as the hull is going to be a big heat sink into the water which surrounds it, its an old wives tale that you can only use lead acid batteries down to 50% the modern lead acids are built a lot betterthan they use to be if you can charge fully while drawing power you can be okay my 12 volt system is 9 years old and i can still get 80 % from the batteries of course i have a 300 amp/hr 24 volt sysyem as well ,apower station might be a usefull addition,i binge watched your whole build and it looks llike you have a goo builder well done very enjoyable .
Thanks Roy. The battery is in the kitchen in a cupboard so it’s alway warm (ish). I’m pleased I got lithium and I am considering a power station thing. They do cost a bit but I can see the benefits of it. Maybe next years home improvement. Thanks for the comment mate and sticking it out. Yes: it’s been a great build. Worth the extra £.
Maybe "Dry" but valuable knowledge and a great insight into the homework. Just check timestamp 11:06 cost slide, 106AH looks expensive. or individuals would just purchase the 108AH
I think a lot of the prices are aligned to brands and deals at the time. I think the important point is, to do the homework at the time of purchase when you know which system you want. There will be some deals at this time of year I’m sure. I did check the slides were correct at the point of edit. My voice, though wasn’t as I get number mixed upness. I know there’s no such word, you get the point….. thanks for the comment though. Always good to be kept on your toes.
Very informative so thank you. Lithium has a limited supply in the world and if the car manufactures really gear up on EV's which is now in the very low single digits then the world supply will deplete or prices will be way high within 15 years. I believe the technology has a long way to go and the next 10 years is a real question mark as to what the "clean ' energy source will be. Perhaps the modern diesel engine is still best value for the next 10 years after which a more viable cost effective power source might be available.
They are looking at a solid state battery which is 10 years still in R&D. Challenging times ahead. My Diesel engine on the car does 850 miles per tank. I have to drive it and not thrash it. Maybe, teaching people to drive economically. I remember petrol coupons when I was serving in Germany. Recycling lithium, if you can. There are a lot of options, all have an impact and need a change of thinking about how we must live. I just want to do my little bit. Diesel engine on the boat will be treated with care to make that last too! Thanks for watching.
I wonder if anyone has ever considered bringing lithium ion cells on board, and charging with solar / charging when connected to mains power instead of relying solely on lead acid. With the energy density and the potential to near fully discharge the battery, if you have a good cooling system i would imagine its a worthwhile endeavor.
I think at the time of making that vid, I was getting lead acid, not sure. But shortly after I reworked my finances which allowed lithium. The majority of boats have lead acid as it’s cheaper. Some have a lithium power battery system as a back up. I’m going to discuss this in a near future vlog. I’m still learning about the boat, it’s power and how to get the most of its potential. Thanks for the comment
@@chrismears-inslowtime thanks for your reply, I realize that I asked this question in two of your videos, and you replied to them both! Anyway, great channel and thanks for the responses :).
Chris, excellent lesson plan and well presented....... In terms of priorities for power I think this will be decided by available finances. Lithium (Lifpo4) is definitely at this time, the way to go, but as you so elegantly put it, they will hurt your pocket, so buy the best you can afford, and if that is a good quality AGM, so be it, use your power accordingly. Solar is also a must, despite a lot of the canal system being partially shaded, there is still a good amount of "rays" to be had. There is again the financial investment, but good solar will save your bacon if the primary supply fails. For my sins I am into field portable amateur radio and power has always been the main issue, I use a portable solar system and Lithium battery which has a fantastic delivery, a total game changer. To summarise, a couple of good solar panels and the best battery you can afford 👍👍. Take care......
Agreed 100%. Lithium can be cheaper than I thought but….. will it last as long as a brand battery. In my experience, no. It might mean to suck up the cost. As you say, get the best system you can afford. Interested in radio myself as a signals person in the mob. Antenna theory was always interesting.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Not wishing to change the subject, but I have a PRC320 which I operate and also enjoy building antennas, the easy ones anyway haha. Ex mob myself.... Keep safe
Another one of your vlogs Chris I really enjoyed and you're out loud thinking of how you came to the decision. I don't think you will go far wrong with Mark on your side and with his experience. But you didn't mention if you will be going 12 volt or 240 volt through a inverter on your boat. Another thing to bear in mind is that any battery is only as good as the equipment that looks after it.
You're right Nigel. This vlog was purely about batteries and recognise there is a requirement for additional equipment. When we have selected the right battery brand, I will discuss all the other bits and bobs that goes with it to make up the electrical system. Thanks for the comment.
You need to look into the charging system more than the batteries. Consider lead acid for your starting battery and Gel for daily use, then get a solar system for charging the daily use and use the engine for charging the starting battery.
You’re right Robert. That is all in hand. This vlog was about batteries itself. I’ve yet to select the brand and system to go along with it. When I do, I’ll do a vlog on the reason why I choose that system along with the solar. I’m sure/hope it won’t be too long.
I know nothing of electrical stuff, at work we leave all this for the sparkies (elec. engineers). I do know my sister used to have a Toyota Prius which she had bought new back in 2008. She drove mostly to and from work approx 70 miles every day, I suppose this would be high use. The battery pack lasted about 10 years before it started showing it's age. At the time, to replace the battery pack with a new pack from Toyota would cost $6,400, while a certified used battery also from Toyota would cost $3,200. In the end she went the other route of trading her Prius in for a new Hyundai hybrid SUV. Since then the prices have come down on the battery packs for the Prius and you can bravely change them out yourself like my friend/neighbor did. Yeah he saved some money but he got more headache than he bargained for. I will say, buy name brand. At my favorite hobby shop in Hemet there was a guy running an RC car out front who crashed his car into the curb. It had a few broken parts but otherwise looked okay, that is until it burst into flames. The lithium polymer (LIPO) battery aggressively burst into flames and destroyed the entire car, there was quite literally nothing left of it. The owner attributed the firework show to the cheap no-name battery he had bought on Amazon. Hard to say if that was it or not, but it seems to run true with other lithium powered devices.
Good to hear from you Paul. Excellent point about branded batteries. I think we/I underestimate the value of branded batteries and the amount of R&D that goes into a battery attached to a brand. It is about a brand name attached to a product whose reputation could be in tatters if a principle component fails. I think I’ve made sense as I’ve accused of waffling on this video but may be guilty here!
Hi Chris Okay Lithium Batteries would be the best, but they are very expensive. An example, my two 100Ah Carbon lead acid batteries take one hour to fully recharge.
Good point Ken. My decision was based upon lithium being able to handle a constant amount of power despite the charge left in the battery. I think, for my lifestyle with the children on board, lithium fits the bill; although the bill will be expensive.
All the sailing boat channels are going lithium. Supper lightweight, last a hell of a lot longer than lead acid and for the price, they are less expensive than than lead acid when you compare the length of time they last. You can also build your own. Sailing Life on Jupiter has one of these batteries but he hasn't shown a video on building it yet. Look up how to build your own.
Victron are one of the systems I asked Mark to price up. I’ll keep the audience informed of the set-up as soon as I’ve got the facts and made a decision. Thanks for watching.
It was largely down to cost that I was against it. There are a few boats I have found on the circuit that are electric (more than I thought there would) but nit many with Lithium. I assume cost was the major factor. You can get cheaper lithium - I suppose the lithium is the same but the tech inside the battery hopefully is the difference. It has given me confidence of being able to run the boat on 24V without fear of damaging the battery. When the sun is out together with solar, it's been great. The fella on the next boat has lead acid and he copes well but then doesn't have his freezer switched on nor does UA-cam so doesn't edit which takes up a lot of battery power. I still don't put the tele on each night as it drains the battery. Horses for courses I suppose. I hope this rambling makes a bit of sense Serena. Thanks for the comment.
@@chrismears-inslowtime yes it does,I run a 12volt fridge freezer as well and to be honest , in the winter it is all I can run, that and the little fan on my separating toilet, I use little lamps which I charge up in my car as well as my iPad, phone etc. i don’t have a TV as I know they are power hungry. I have invested in a Jackery this year and that has made my life much easier, it is like you say, to live like this there has to be comprise, but I love every minute :)
@@serenadm6619 you’re living a very hard lifestyle Serena. Not many will be prepared to sacrifice luxuries of life. It does make me think that we are so used to the easy life, when it gets difficult, so many have forgotten how to compromise in living standards. I could go on but…….Hats off to you.
I do think u r right with lithium battery set up is needed for some things like washer,pc,,, a few things. They can take the hit of power when needed and recharge a lot of times. Im thinking to get a bigger amount of amp hr's and not needing the BIG power hit all the time then a small ish lithium battery set up and a BIGGER amp hr setup with Lead is they way to go for me bud. I just dont like having all my eggs in 1 basket and u know my thoughts on 2 heads r better then 1 from your other Vid lol
This is an area I need to discuss with Mark at The Fit Out Pontoon. I get the principle of usage of power with Lead Acid. I just need to make sure the principle still stands with Lithium or if its different, which will determine how many Amp hr I need. A previous comment discusses Amp Hr of lithium is lasts longer than Lead Acid. Thanks for the comment.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Np all good here to try and help if pos. It will be down to math on amps , recharge and size of set up needed and how much the spend.
@@chrismears-inslowtime The size of your inverter and batteries will be determined by your peak consumption. No use your system generally works well and it bombs out when you switch on the kettle. It is very important that you cater for those spikes in consumption.
@@tomdunn1254 good point well made Tom. I think I knew that, although never spoke about it directly. Not that confident in all areas electric. Just the basics.
I know. If I hadn’t saved hard I wouldn’t have been able to buy them. I think it’s the right decision though, simply because of the flexibility of how they can be used. Consistency in power and quick to charge. It’s the next time I need to replace them is my only concern. Drip feed saving I think but that’s £1k a year saving for batteries. Hmmm….it becomes more scary the more I consider it.
@@nickevans1698 so…..if I buy lithium and look after them, they could last 25 yrs. By the time I need to change them, well, I might not be around to do it. I could be in my 80s. Enough time to save at least.
Hi Chris. Thanks for yet another informative and well explained video. I think that by the time you come to replace the lithium batteries, lithium will be 'old hat' and probably be viewed in the same way that NiMh batteries are today. The global effort and investment to produce portable high power modules for transport is massive. The two largest LifeP04 battery manufacturers on the planet , CATL and BYD are pouring billions $$ into R&D. With already promising results. I certainly believe you have made the correct decision Chris. I'm Looking forward to your next vid
I have polynovel Bluetooth batteries lithium I am a liverboard continuous cruiser well atm I'm on winter mooring but I have been of the grid with lithium completly of solar... I have bi focal panels from LG I also spent the money for victron yes you can buy cheap but you will pay more and more and more with lead acid I used to use 6 leasure a year... What people don't talk about is when a lead acid gets cold they damage when charging.... Yes lithium same issue but it has a bms and protects them my lithium batteries in 2 years have cycled 50 times little food for thought 3000 cycle min
That’s a great recycle stat. I know about batteries and the cold as my car battery always struggles in the winter as I don’t use it often. It drains if I don’t use it for 2 weeks. I have an electrical issue as somewhere in the car, it’s drawing power. Don’t know where. I’m starting to understand battery power a little more and no doubt will become more engrossed as I use them for real. Victron is one of the brands I’m looking in to.
Viewer #1 this evening! I agree, it's a real struggle to understand the pros and cons. I personally apply the 5 km rule when it comes to the use of my gasoline (petrol) powered older (low mileage) car. That is, if it's less than a 5 km trip, I walk, or take transit. This represents a huge saving in fuel and maintenance, and makes buying an electric car a poor economic choice. Add to that the issue of offsets: while I could enjoy zero emissions, there is a footprint to mining, and to the manufacture of batteries. One point you make very well is that there isn't just one correct answer. Like a lot of things in life, there are a myriad shades of grey. Technology isn't good or bad, it's a matter of appropriate application. I'd say the choice of lithium, given your intended use, is probably the optimal choice available.
I believe your values are very similar to mine. Would rather walk to do the weekly shop. 2.5 miles each way with rucksack and two carry bags. It’s a pain at times especially in the winter when raining but, it gives me time to think; some ‘me’ time. Thanks for watching. I know it wasn’t easy.
Hi Chris, I have randomly watched your output over the last couple of months and I have come to realise that your information and advice is very considered and informed. You certainly leave no stones unturned as you calculate your needs from the boat you have built and the home you are building. I have plans of living on the cut myself and will certainly be incorporating many of the excellent problem avoiding solutions you have used, as I create and personalise my new home and I'm sure many others will also benefit from your research into cost, value and returns from virtually all aspects of your build and your considerations on future add-ons or replacements. Many thanks
Thanks for the comment and recognition of the considered homework. I’m pleased it’s been of value. Have a great week.
Fabulous overview Chris…your thought process narrative on all your vids are extremely helpful. Thanks for all the effort - keep it up please!
One of my early vids Alex so not one of my best. The thought process is there for batteries and I'm pleased you found it useful. A dry subject but the homework is there. Thanks for the comment and have a great week.
SQEP ! Marvellous. Great vid - keep 'em coming.
I’m sure there’ll be more TLAs in this case FLA. 3/4 letter abbreviation. Something different next week.
Very interesting….thank you for the vlog
Thanks for watching Michael. I’ll be discussing the whole setup in due course.
You have provided the best explanation of batteries I've ever heard. I enjoy the behind the boat talks you're doing.
Thanks very much. That’s praise indeed considering those you’ve discussed it on the Tube. I plan to do another one about the whole battery setup when the battery system, solar and all that electric stuff is finally decided. Thanks for watching.
Lithium is an excelent choice. Well done!!
Thanks Tom. It has been a bit of a squeeze financially but I’m sure the stable power and ease of recharging, I won’t regret it.
@@chrismears-inslowtime The results of your research is in line with my own research w.r.t. an off gritt system at home. The basics remains the same. Regards.
Hi Chris. Thanks for such an interesting and informative vlog on the batteries. Never found these kinds of comparisons so well presented before - learned a lot about not only the "technicalities" but also the need to cost the initial decision over time and the likely power demands they'll need to meet. Some good info which has implications for even our own leisure battery decisions. Thanks for an excellent vid. George and Trish -- CaravanningMacs.
Thanks Trish and George. I’ve learnt a lot researching and doing the vlog. I had a meeting last week about the whole battery system. I’ve got some more thinking to do, but the wiring starts this week, so I can’t hold out to much. I’ll extract the useful information from the meeting which was very useful for me and I’m sure those who watch. Thanks again.
Excellent talk I have been looking forward to this one. Well done . Cheers
Thanks very much. I’ll be adding to this content when I’ve finally decided on the setup, brand and solar stuff. Hopefully, it won’t be long. Thanks for watching.
Good vlog Chris. I think you made the right choice given its all new, you can easily put them inside in a purpose built area - under lock and key!
They or it is going in the electric cupboard. At least that's what I think. One battery! I'm going to do a vlog on it as this set up is something that could help others. I certainly learnt a lot researching it. Thanks Rob.
Very nice overview! One thing that you left out is that there are a few different lithium battery chemistries, with quite different behavior characteristics - Lithium NMC (lithium nickel manganese cobalt), LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate), and LTO (lithium titanium oxide). NMC has been the traditional chemistry used in most batteries, including (up until very recently) almost all electric vehicles, and this chemistry seems to be what you were describing as far as (paraphrase) "if you discharge it deeply and repeatedly, you will materially reduce the life and capacity of the battery". However, LiFePO4 batteries are now coming on quite strong, and they have a couple of key advantages over NMC batteries, especially for RV and narrowboat folks. 1) They retain more of their capacity over a much longer period of time, even with fairly deep discharging, and 2) They are MUCH safer in the event of an accident/fire/electrical malfunction - Lithium NMC batteries tend to misbehave in spectacular ways if badly damaged or severely abused, which can ruin a boater's day.
Thanks for the additional info. At the time, I was getting lead acid batteries, I think without looking back. I ended up with Lithium LiFePO4 from mastervolt. Exactly the reasons you stated. Never revisited it as such, although that video is coming in the near future. Thanks for the comment and have a great week.
👍👍👍👍thumbs up to this vlog very informative good luck with the build, 🍀🍀🍀lots of love from Louisiana ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Thanks Susan. Appreciate the support.
Very interesting mate.
Thanks Andy. Hope life is treating you well.
@@chrismears-inslowtime It's a lot better than it has been in the past, Finally found the right partner and life is very good.
🔋 Hi Chris. I can’t say I’m normally interested in batteries but I just love the way you explain things with added information e.g. countries where lithium is mined etc. They say you learn something everyday…… and I have …. you had my attention to the end of your vlog.
Cheers for these vlogs, look forward to next weeks 😊
Thanks Jackie. Was expecting to take a hit this week as it is a dry subject and everyone has their viewpoint on what is right. Hopefully, more boaty next week.
I agree Chris. I have gone for lithium as part of my build. Cycle numbers alone swayed it for me. A solid solar system will also benefit. I do acknowledge expense though.
It’s given me plenty of worry beads. The extra funds make all the difference. I’ll keep you informed about the set up.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Great! Looking forward to seeing your progress Chris.
Enjoyed the vlog. Well explained Chris. 👍
Have you chosen your batteries yet? I’ve not seen anything on it on your channel. Thanks for watching.
I really like your vlogs. As a person with an analytical head, I enjoy following your logic and assessments.
We are in a position to place an order for our sailaway this year. We have been discussing battery options and, looking at total cost of ownership, lithium is the way to go. My logic, a bit like yours, is that we have created a budget and cost expectations (with a suitable float) and if we build the cost of lithium to that, it’s then covered in the initial build cost whammy. This is more palatable than a retro fit when we come to replace batteries later. I can ensure the ‘electrical cupboard’ is properly configured (batteries inside boat etc). Ok, a bit of fuzzy logic but we can afford the hit now and may not be able to afford the hit later. I’m sure though when we get to the actual purchase stage, I’ll be engulfed in doubt again due to the expense 😀
Thanks for the comment. It’s the future cost that will concern me. My plan is to put money aside each month for that rainy day when I need to buy batteries again. It’s going to be a strict regime that I will only delve into in absolute emergencies. I think on limited money, that will be a starter for 10. Review in a few years time. Thanks for watching
Great exposition on a relatively complex issue. One thing I notice , is that you are having a boat built , so you can ensure to have installed the complex management system required for lithium , special charger etc. This would not necessarily be the choice for an existing boater who would have to contend not only with the extra cost of lithium batteries but a charger and management systems because the charger for lead acid cannot cope with charging lithiums.
I agree Glenn. I didn’t touch on the management system as I would assume that people, if wanting to go down that route would conduct their own research. Assumption is the mother of all **ck ups as we say and that is true. Perhaps, in hindsight, if I was doing this video again, I would mention it. Some I know have got around the issue somehow using a joint system. Don’t ask, I’m too thick!
Useful and informative - Thanks
Thanks for watching. I’ll do another vlog on the complete electrical system once I have identified it.
One thing that has not been mentioned is hot water and electric cooking. In the summer with lithium you can run a 1kw immersion heater and when the sun does eventually come out the solar will replenish it. You can not really run 1Kw devices on AGM batteries for very long as they run down super fast when you do this, maybe if there wasn't a cloud in the sky and you had enough solar you could chance it. I think that is the big difference. Lithium will get you through the cloudy days a lot better than AGM.
Chris Have you looked at the hybrid marine site with the idea of large battery banks?
Thanks for the comment Ian. In short, No. BUT, I did find out that a hybrid marine engine, add £30k to the price when you buy the batteries set up. That price can be adjusted dependant on the batteries. Also, to have that amount of batteries takes up space. If they are lithium, that space is inside. Lead acid - a lot of room in the engine bay. Also that would mean the gas locker at the front would need to be used as a gas locker instead of where mine is, near the galley. If you consider the price and that is within your pocket's reach, the design of the boat would need to match. I would imaging, to retro fit a hybrid engine for me now, I might as well buy a new, but cheaper boat.
I hope that answers the question?
Very interesting to see the thought process Chris. I think Lithium will be the standard for quite some time to come. The current nervousness of its future reminds me very much of the 'peak oil' stories of the 1990s which havent really been borne out. Forecasts are very much built on current (pardon the pun) reserves and dont allow for future discoveries. For example, while drilling a geothermal well in Cornwall recently, they discovered the water extracted commercial levels of lithium. A lot can happen in battery chemistry or extraction technology in 20 or 30 years especially if its driven by necessity as demand for lithium grows. I reckon your big initial sting is worth it in the long term.
I’m just reading about the ‘Peak Oil’ stories as it happens. Lithium is new and I’ve gathered there still isn’t much science in the academic study. It’s a bit of guess work and people trying to manipulate the commodities market. It’s all interesting stuff. Thanks for the comment Rob.
Sadly in Aus, we don’t have canal boats, so we’ve had to settle for the caravan instead. We have a small teardrop variety and happily paid to have a lithium battery to afford us a degree of freedom.
A key point that you didn’t mention that was part of our consideration is that 1x120 Ah lithium battery = 2x 100 Ah AGM.
Helen. Thanks. Didn’t know that. That will make all the difference. Thanks for commenting.
Another great and well thought out video.
I am thinking of doing the lead carbon and see how they pan out.
I think most electrical usage is at night time with lights being on or TV being on etc. In the day time the kids will be too busy running about the boat and looking at the nature passing by. Phones and laptops will be charging while the boat is moving and I think the main issue to be looked at is how much drain there will be in the night time with lights etc and fridge going, maybe a water heating pump. I have also been looking at making some low profile wind generators to fit atop the boat to get limited power in the night time.
Thanks for the comment. The wind generator: there was a company at Crick a few years ago. I looked at them as a possible option for the winter. Solar, principle recharge capability in the summer and wind in the winter. For me, there was only so much I could research and prepared to invest. It might be something for the future. You’re right about night time usage. I’ll have a fridge and separate freezer. Tele, rarely on when I’m on my own, nor lights as I’m a tight……individual. Carbon would have been a choice, had I not agreed financial settlement. Let’s see in a year or two, what works and how I’ve had to change the way I live in order to get the best living setup.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Question, is the battery management and inverter system different for both lithium and lead batteries or could someone just swap out the batteries with little problems?
@@DEmma1972 not sure about inverter but simple logic would suggest it just deals with electrical power so regardless it just upgrades 12v into 24v. I do know the management system for lead acid and lithium is different. From what I read, Gel is different to AGM and flooded lead acid and lithium needs it’s own system. I’m not an authority on anything to do with boats although 80%+ sure on what I’ve stated. Carbon, Cruising the Cut did a vid on it as he has Carbon: Again 80% as I don’t keep up to date on his channel.
@@DEmma1972 Tom Dunn in the comments, states the inverter needs to be able to match the power you need or it’ll kill your batteries. I think I knew that but he makes a good point.
Good morning chris. If i were in your situation i would most certainly tune into
Whoops. Cruising the cut vlog 178 might interest you. Sorry about cock up. John
I’ll look into it. Thanks John.
I bought 4 x 310 grade A cells - put on a 120amp blue tooth BMS and it all fitted in a 130a lead acid caravan polypropylene box I lined with dense neoprene foam - I put a thin insulator between each cell and a 18mm ply on each end then strapped the cells together with massive cable ties- the buss bars are from Aliexpress rated at 300a and the 1.5 full sine wave inverter is connected via 25mm square copper cable and a 120 heavy duty relay and fuse. Its been running over a year flawless
I think, if I had taken notice at school or even had a small amount of interest in batteries, until now I might add, I may have done something similar. I know enough of the basics and I’m continuing to pick stuff up. Funny how your interests change when elements of your life changes. Good to see innovators like you doing it different to succeed. What do you use the power in?
@@chrismears-inslowtime I use the battery in my 3 ton Autostratus 75 Camper - Its fed by a 280watt solar panel and a 20a DC to DC Renogy charger from the alternator and on hook up a 30amp charger - it lets me use things like a toaster/kettle/coffeemakers & hairdryer as well as the usual stuff. I have made quite a few batteries for one man vehicles and ebikes with both Lifepo4 and Li-ion - I taught myself as needs arose and kind of grew with the technology - I recommend a blog by Will Prowse who does some great posts on here - I got a Battery Management System that talks to my phone which is kinda fun - Of cause you can get a 100ah lithium battery for about the same price - if you don't go lithium I understand Lead carbon batteries are good.
I’ve heard of Will Prowse. He does interesting stuff. Your set won’t work for me as I don’t need a hair dryer!!!! All that solar is yet to come as is the battery management system. Just waiting for the battery to arrive before I create a light hearted look at the electric stuff. Not sure how to make it light hearted though. Thanks Trev.
@@chrismears-inslowtime I use an EpEver MPPT charge controller - I've used several on a number of projects like an off grid workshop - was astonished it was used to mix the cement and cut the wood for a near by house build and brew tea for the workforce!
Hi Chris seems like you have a goood start on solar system,only thing i would share is that with lithium, you have to keep them warm in winter when charging and that would mean insulating the battery room more and also the floor as the hull is going to be a big heat sink into the water which surrounds it, its an old wives tale that you can only use lead acid batteries down to 50% the modern lead acids are built a lot betterthan they use to be if you can charge fully while drawing power you can be okay my 12 volt system is 9 years old and i can still get 80 % from the batteries of course i have a 300 amp/hr 24 volt sysyem as well ,apower station might be a usefull addition,i binge watched your whole build and it looks llike you have a goo builder well done very enjoyable .
Thanks Roy. The battery is in the kitchen in a cupboard so it’s alway warm (ish). I’m pleased I got lithium and I am considering a power station thing. They do cost a bit but I can see the benefits of it. Maybe next years home improvement. Thanks for the comment mate and sticking it out.
Yes: it’s been a great build. Worth the extra £.
@@chrismears-inslowtime
@@chrismears-inslowtime hi chris i tried this email a number of times but cantget it totake
@@roydredge1273 have you tried the other one I sent.
@@chrismears-inslowtime i did not get another one?
Maybe "Dry" but valuable knowledge and a great insight into the homework. Just check timestamp 11:06 cost slide, 106AH looks expensive. or individuals would just purchase the 108AH
I think a lot of the prices are aligned to brands and deals at the time. I think the important point is, to do the homework at the time of purchase when you know which system you want. There will be some deals at this time of year I’m sure. I did check the slides were correct at the point of edit. My voice, though wasn’t as I get number mixed upness. I know there’s no such word, you get the point….. thanks for the comment though. Always good to be kept on your toes.
@@chrismears-inslowtime good content and great research. Looking forward to the rest of the journey.
Very informative so thank you. Lithium has a limited supply in the world and if the car manufactures really gear up on EV's which is now in the very low single digits then the world supply will deplete or prices will be way high within 15 years. I believe the technology has a long way to go and the next 10 years is a real question mark as to what the "clean ' energy source will be. Perhaps the modern diesel engine is still best value for the next 10 years after which a more viable cost effective power source might be available.
They are looking at a solid state battery which is 10 years still in R&D. Challenging times ahead. My Diesel engine on the car does 850 miles per tank. I have to drive it and not thrash it. Maybe, teaching people to drive economically. I remember petrol coupons when I was serving in Germany. Recycling lithium, if you can. There are a lot of options, all have an impact and need a change of thinking about how we must live. I just want to do my little bit. Diesel engine on the boat will be treated with care to make that last too! Thanks for watching.
Lithium is not a rare metal
The Combat Estimate wasn’t wasted……I think Lithium is a good choice 👍
It’s surprising how often I use it. Next week. Boat naming! Hmm…..opportunity to give a suggestion.
@@chrismears-inslowtime The name ‘Quest’ springs to mind or Cathartic , as your on one, or keep it personal and name it something or someone you love.
I wonder if anyone has ever considered bringing lithium ion cells on board, and charging with solar / charging when connected to mains power instead of relying solely on lead acid. With the energy density and the potential to near fully discharge the battery, if you have a good cooling system i would imagine its a worthwhile endeavor.
I think at the time of making that vid, I was getting lead acid, not sure. But shortly after I reworked my finances which allowed lithium. The majority of boats have lead acid as it’s cheaper. Some have a lithium power battery system as a back up. I’m going to discuss this in a near future vlog. I’m still learning about the boat, it’s power and how to get the most of its potential. Thanks for the comment
@@chrismears-inslowtime thanks for your reply, I realize that I asked this question in two of your videos, and you replied to them both! Anyway, great channel and thanks for the responses :).
Chris, excellent lesson plan and well presented....... In terms of priorities for power I think this will be decided by available finances. Lithium (Lifpo4) is definitely at this time, the way to go, but as you so elegantly put it, they will hurt your pocket, so buy the best you can afford, and if that is a good quality AGM, so be it, use your power accordingly. Solar is also a must, despite a lot of the canal system being partially shaded, there is still a good amount of "rays" to be had. There is again the financial investment, but good solar will save your bacon if the primary supply fails. For my sins I am into field portable amateur radio and power has always been the main issue, I use a portable solar system and Lithium battery which has a fantastic delivery, a total game changer. To summarise, a couple of good solar panels and the best battery you can afford 👍👍. Take care......
Agreed 100%. Lithium can be cheaper than I thought but….. will it last as long as a brand battery. In my experience, no. It might mean to suck up the cost. As you say, get the best system you can afford. Interested in radio myself as a signals person in the mob. Antenna theory was always interesting.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Not wishing to change the subject, but I have a PRC320 which I operate and also enjoy building antennas, the easy ones anyway haha. Ex mob myself.... Keep safe
@@theoldhobbit3640 HF was a black art. Loved it.
Another one of your vlogs Chris I really enjoyed and you're out loud thinking of how you came to the decision. I don't think you will go far wrong with Mark on your side and with his experience. But you didn't mention if you will be going 12 volt or 240 volt through a inverter on your boat.
Another thing to bear in mind is that any battery is only as good as the equipment that looks after it.
You're right Nigel. This vlog was purely about batteries and recognise there is a requirement for additional equipment. When we have selected the right battery brand, I will discuss all the other bits and bobs that goes with it to make up the electrical system. Thanks for the comment.
You need to look into the charging system more than the batteries. Consider lead acid for your starting battery and Gel for daily use, then get a solar system for charging the daily use and use the engine for charging the starting battery.
You’re right Robert. That is all in hand. This vlog was about batteries itself. I’ve yet to select the brand and system to go along with it. When I do, I’ll do a vlog on the reason why I choose that system along with the solar. I’m sure/hope it won’t be too long.
I know nothing of electrical stuff, at work we leave all this for the sparkies (elec. engineers). I do know my sister used to have a Toyota Prius which she had bought new back in 2008. She drove mostly to and from work approx 70 miles every day, I suppose this would be high use. The battery pack lasted about 10 years before it started showing it's age. At the time, to replace the battery pack with a new pack from Toyota would cost $6,400, while a certified used battery also from Toyota would cost $3,200. In the end she went the other route of trading her Prius in for a new Hyundai hybrid SUV. Since then the prices have come down on the battery packs for the Prius and you can bravely change them out yourself like my friend/neighbor did. Yeah he saved some money but he got more headache than he bargained for. I will say, buy name brand. At my favorite hobby shop in Hemet there was a guy running an RC car out front who crashed his car into the curb. It had a few broken parts but otherwise looked okay, that is until it burst into flames. The lithium polymer (LIPO) battery aggressively burst into flames and destroyed the entire car, there was quite literally nothing left of it. The owner attributed the firework show to the cheap no-name battery he had bought on Amazon. Hard to say if that was it or not, but it seems to run true with other lithium powered devices.
Good to hear from you Paul. Excellent point about branded batteries. I think we/I underestimate the value of branded batteries and the amount of R&D that goes into a battery attached to a brand. It is about a brand name attached to a product whose reputation could be in tatters if a principle component fails. I think I’ve made sense as I’ve accused of waffling on this video but may be guilty here!
Hi Chris Okay Lithium Batteries would be the best, but they are very expensive. An example, my two 100Ah Carbon lead acid batteries take one hour to fully recharge.
Good point Ken. My decision was based upon lithium being able to handle a constant amount of power despite the charge left in the battery. I think, for my lifestyle with the children on board, lithium fits the bill; although the bill will be expensive.
All the sailing boat channels are going lithium. Supper lightweight, last a hell of a lot longer than lead acid and for the price, they are less expensive than than lead acid when you compare the length of time they last. You can also build your own. Sailing Life on Jupiter has one of these batteries but he hasn't shown a video on building it yet. Look up how to build your own.
That vid was made before I opted for lithium. When building a boat, price is important. I saved harder and had £15k extra. I spent it on lithium.
Victron batteries? Good but expensive.
Victron are one of the systems I asked Mark to price up. I’ll keep the audience informed of the set-up as soon as I’ve got the facts and made a decision. Thanks for watching.
I wish I had chosen lithium for my tiny house, especially in the winter
It was largely down to cost that I was against it. There are a few boats I have found on the circuit that are electric (more than I thought there would) but nit many with Lithium. I assume cost was the major factor. You can get cheaper lithium - I suppose the lithium is the same but the tech inside the battery hopefully is the difference. It has given me confidence of being able to run the boat on 24V without fear of damaging the battery. When the sun is out together with solar, it's been great. The fella on the next boat has lead acid and he copes well but then doesn't have his freezer switched on nor does UA-cam so doesn't edit which takes up a lot of battery power. I still don't put the tele on each night as it drains the battery. Horses for courses I suppose. I hope this rambling makes a bit of sense Serena. Thanks for the comment.
@@chrismears-inslowtime yes it does,I run a 12volt fridge freezer as well and to be honest , in the winter it is all I can run, that and the little fan on my separating toilet, I use little lamps which I charge up in my car as well as my iPad, phone etc. i don’t have a TV as I know they are power hungry. I have invested in a Jackery this year and that has made my life much easier, it is like you say, to live like this there has to be comprise, but I love every minute :)
@@serenadm6619 you’re living a very hard lifestyle Serena. Not many will be prepared to sacrifice luxuries of life. It does make me think that we are so used to the easy life, when it gets difficult, so many have forgotten how to compromise in living standards. I could go on but…….Hats off to you.
@@chrismears-inslowtime I love the challenge :)
I do think u r right with lithium battery set up is needed for some things like washer,pc,,, a few things. They can take the hit of power when needed and recharge a lot of times.
Im thinking to get a bigger amount of amp hr's and not needing the BIG power hit all the time then a small ish lithium battery set up and a BIGGER amp hr setup with Lead is they way to go for me bud.
I just dont like having all my eggs in 1 basket and u know my thoughts on 2 heads r better then 1 from your other Vid lol
This is an area I need to discuss with Mark at The Fit Out Pontoon. I get the principle of usage of power with Lead Acid. I just need to make sure the principle still stands with Lithium or if its different, which will determine how many Amp hr I need. A previous comment discusses Amp Hr of lithium is lasts longer than Lead Acid. Thanks for the comment.
@@chrismears-inslowtime Np all good here to try and help if pos. It will be down to math on amps , recharge and size of set up needed and how much the spend.
@@chrismears-inslowtime The size of your inverter and batteries will be determined by your peak consumption. No use your system generally works well and it bombs out when you switch on the kettle. It is very important that you cater for those spikes in consumption.
@@tomdunn1254 good point well made Tom. I think I knew that, although never spoke about it directly. Not that confident in all areas electric. Just the basics.
before u ask about solar i think bifacial solar for me , not as good looking as thin film but a lot better
Lithium are pricey, for my boat its Lifepod4 600AH inc install £13500
I know. If I hadn’t saved hard I wouldn’t have been able to buy them. I think it’s the right decision though, simply because of the flexibility of how they can be used. Consistency in power and quick to charge. It’s the next time I need to replace them is my only concern. Drip feed saving I think but that’s £1k a year saving for batteries. Hmmm….it becomes more scary the more I consider it.
@@chrismears-inslowtime they say 25 years Chris 🤔 what do you think?
@@nickevans1698 so…..if I buy lithium and look after them, they could last 25 yrs. By the time I need to change them, well, I might not be around to do it. I could be in my 80s. Enough time to save at least.
@@chrismears-inslowtime that was also part of my decision processing 😎
Hi Chris. Thanks for yet another informative and well explained video. I think that by the time you come to replace the lithium batteries, lithium will be 'old hat' and probably be viewed in the same way that NiMh batteries are today. The global effort and investment to produce portable high power modules for transport is massive. The two largest LifeP04 battery manufacturers on the planet , CATL and BYD are pouring billions $$ into R&D. With already promising results. I certainly believe you have made the correct decision Chris. I'm Looking forward to your next vid
I have polynovel Bluetooth batteries lithium I am a liverboard continuous cruiser well atm I'm on winter mooring but I have been of the grid with lithium completly of solar... I have bi focal panels from LG I also spent the money for victron yes you can buy cheap but you will pay more and more and more with lead acid I used to use 6 leasure a year... What people don't talk about is when a lead acid gets cold they damage when charging.... Yes lithium same issue but it has a bms and protects them my lithium batteries in 2 years have cycled 50 times little food for thought 3000 cycle min
That’s a great recycle stat. I know about batteries and the cold as my car battery always struggles in the winter as I don’t use it often. It drains if I don’t use it for 2 weeks. I have an electrical issue as somewhere in the car, it’s drawing power. Don’t know where. I’m starting to understand battery power a little more and no doubt will become more engrossed as I use them for real. Victron is one of the brands I’m looking in to.
Viewer #1 this evening!
I agree, it's a real struggle to understand the pros and cons.
I personally apply the 5 km rule when it comes to the use of my gasoline (petrol) powered older (low mileage) car. That is, if it's less than a 5 km trip, I walk, or take transit. This represents a huge saving in fuel and maintenance, and makes buying an electric car a poor economic choice. Add to that the issue of offsets: while I could enjoy zero emissions, there is a footprint to mining, and to the manufacture of batteries.
One point you make very well is that there isn't just one correct answer. Like a lot of things in life, there are a myriad shades of grey. Technology isn't good or bad, it's a matter of appropriate application. I'd say the choice of lithium, given your intended use, is probably the optimal choice available.
I believe your values are very similar to mine. Would rather walk to do the weekly shop. 2.5 miles each way with rucksack and two carry bags. It’s a pain at times especially in the winter when raining but, it gives me time to think; some ‘me’ time. Thanks for watching. I know it wasn’t easy.
Re lithium futures, see Simon-Ehrlich wager
Thanks for the comment Stephen. Now doing more research on the subject. I’ll do an update when I decide on the battery setup.