Great episode guys. I honestly think this all sounds really terrible. I feel like this the last thing Alexander would've wanted. What made Dumble amps special is Dumble himself. Everyone who builds amps has to know that it's the builder who makes the amp special and not just the quality of parts or the design of the amp. The man was a genius. It just sounds like some business men getting together to try and profit off the hard work of Dumble and his legacy. Sounds like old fashioned human greed to me. I am all for keeping his name alive but not so that a small number of people can profit off his work. I think getting some of the best amp techs in the world together to recreate a few models would be really cool, but not in the spirit of trying to make money. Very off putting for me, and why would anyone want one? it wasn't built by the man himself, the legend!
@@jamesemerson4102 Stop gate-keeping bro. More people deserve to have the dumble sound if they want it. It shouldnt be reserved for rich collectors. Dumble stood on the shoulders of Leo Fender designs, lets not forget that
@@Starch1b2c3d4a Mate, if they're going to charge $50k for an amp then obviously it will still be only rich people who can buy them, right? Also, they're not getting a dumble anyway they're just getting another clone, and these are already being made. You can already get an amp that sounds pretty close to a dumble and there is nothing wrong with that. Putting the name Dumble on it is not going to make it a better amp and certainly not what he himself would've built for you using his decades of expertise and his ears. Robben Ford has said that Dumble did not pass along the technology and he didn't train any apprentice. Dumble didn't care about money and what he built was art, and you will never have a real Dumble amp without Dumble himself. The man lived his craft and was a one man operation. To use the name and then charge $20-50k for an amp, as if it was made by the man himself? just seems wrong to me. He was a one man operation not a big corporate company. I have a Dumble clone myself, and so it has nothing to do with people deserving or not deserving of anything. I love dumble style pedals and amps.
@@jamesemerson4102 They can definitely mass produce his designs for 3-4 grand a amp. Thats the best way to do it. The guy was a hermit and did not know how to scale the operation anyway. Plenty of people can do what he couldnt. I'd say start the mass production and clones of his designs. Put the Dumble name on them. Its only a matter of time, so start early
@@Starch1b2c3d4a They could do that but will they sell them for that price? I'm talking more about if they're trying to make a fortune off them at like $50k. I think THAT is really off. Also though, Dumble was indeed an especially talented amp builder. It just seems weird and very off to take a name that was a 1 man operation and build amps in his name after he's gone, unless he passed on the knowledge and wanted it. The magic of a brilliant amp is not just a circuit or even quality parts. It's got to be tuned at the end with someone who has VERY good ears. Tubes need to be rolled etc to find the best sounding tubes for the amp and any other tweaking. I would be highly speculative of who the builder is but like I said if they got a bunch of the worlds best techs together to try and recreate some models I think that's cool, however there is no way it will come close to the level of his amps with the quality of parts used etc. even Two-rocks don't use the absolute highest quality parts available and their amps can cost upto $10k. With Dumble, it was no expense spared with parts.
Seems to me that there is a consistency within the Dumble design no matter the model like the cleans and the touch sensitive dynamics and sustain to my ears atleast wether it’s SRV’s Steel String Stringers or Robin Ford’s ODS etc.. And I think that’s a baseline to do a mass produced amplifier if they do.. there’s many companies out there making clones that are pretty close and they would have to compete price point wise also.. just my thoughts
I think there are overarching things, yes. I think at that point, however, they're not unique enough from a Two Rock or any other Dumble style brand that is interpreting generalized Dumble designs as so much of the magic of a Dumble was his sensibilities. It would be difficult to interpret that outside of the man himself.
I didn't use that work as there is no single Overdrive Special, or Steel String Singer, etc. circuit. It's a little different when it's a Deluxe Reverb - an amp that was made to be mass produced off of a standardized design that didn't change (other than the component tolerances). This isn't that. It's more of a tribute than a reissue.
A bit of more evidence of Dumble defending their trademark on amps. Amplified Nation makes Dumble clones and had two models that were named the same as actual Dumbles. I believe they were the Steel String Singer and Overdrive Reverb? Back in May, they announced via Instagram that they would change the names to "Six String Sustain" and "Phoenix Fury". My guess is this was probably due to a cease and desist request rather than an impromptu rebranding. This has been going on behind the scenes for several months.
I remember when the dumble trademark was filed (2020 iirc). It looked like it was a trademark troll. I don’t see Howard ever letting the brand go on. Someone taking the dumble name and designs, and trying to make money off of it… reminds me of something a certain “pedal builder” named mason would do.
If they have Dumble schematics of Santana's amplifier, or SRV'S, or whomerver, they sell that version of the Dumble amplifier. People are paying huge amounts to buy Dumble amps not customized for them, so if a player can buy an exact copy of an original Dumble at a resonable price, they will.
The problem is, it will be far more expensive than say a Ceriatone or even a Two-Rock if they use parts to the quality that Dumble would've used, and it's really the tuning at the end of the build that is the most important thing about making an amp brilliant. We do already have schematics and we can already buy clones like the Ceriatone OTS, Welagan ODS, Bludotone, etc. They're already brilliant clones. This would be another clone and no different. I think you're right, someone would buy them, but personally I think that's highly disrespectful to the guy and his legacy considering he definitely would not have wanted this. The amps won't really be Dumbles because they weren't built by him. He put far too much energy and gave too much attention to each individual amp for them to simply be cloned. I think if Dumble had an apprentice or passed along knowledge, that might be different.
I really enjoyed the discussion. At the same time, may I suggest that the discussion seemed rather off topic for the Chairmen series. It also ended up being a pretty one-sided discussion, so perhaps this would be better fitting just as a Vertex video, I don't know. I really love the show and have watched every episode, many several times, so I don't mean to be critical at all. Appreciate you guys big time! Just thought it may be helpful feedback.
Dumble amps were 2-5 grand in the 80’s before customizations. That’s 7,652-19,132 NOW. Two rock is cheap in comparison. You can get 4 two rock 100 watt heads and 212 cabs used for less than 19 grand.
That is true, and your "today" dollar estimate is probably close enough for argument sake. BUT, .... my take on it is that you can't really compare having two-rock make you an amp, with having Howard Dumble making you an amp....... Forget about all the Dumble mystique, over hype or over price that might exist..... the fact remains that two rock is a "production" amp builder..... albeit maybe "low" production? I don't know, but for certain, ordering a Dumble was a FAR more custom, individualized process, which admittedly doesn't necessarily equal better or worse sound, but it for sure equals more exclusive, ie pricey. So yeah you could buy 4 two rocks or whatever you said, for the cost of one dumble in equalized inflation dollars, but I just think it's hard to compare..... again, forget about the sound, or "perceived" value etc...... The exclusivity and "one off" nature of the dumbles makes it very hard to compare the "value" between the two. Just my worthless 2 cents, lol ......
@@SAIBOT64 The other consideration is that if you're are having Dumble make it, it's considerably cheaper than buying it on the second hand market. Most of the prices we hear are resold Dumble's from the 70s, 80s, and 90s. As I said in the video, I think they were around $50K 10 years ago (but I could be misremembering). I've heard of guys paying $20K in the early 2000's. Again, I'm only repeating what I've heard from other owners. Not sure how valid those numbers are.
There is no way a mass manufactured Dumble should command $50K. I mean their are idiots out there that have more money than sense, but it should be no more than any other boutique amp manufacturer, $3500 to $4500 USD. Look you can get the best Plexi ever made from George Metropolis and thats for $3500 for a 50 watt version and $4500 for the 100 Watt. These amps are superb in build quality and sound amazing as good as you can get for a Plexi.
The $50K was my number (guess) not theirs, so I wouldn’t critique it yet as gospel. Also, as great as George’s amps are, you can get a real vintage Plexi for about that same price.
@@VertexEffectsInc But you won't get a master volume and you won't get two amps in one like the Metropolos MKII which has Georges amp and then be able to also get EVH amp which was yea almost stock but had the 50K stock pot and a fat cap.
@@Cpt_Adama I'm not making that argument. All I'm saying is it's not comparable because there is much more supply of even vintage Plexi's than Dumble amps that they can't be compared on price. Should Jim Marshall have only made 200 Plexi's in his life, I suspect we'd be having a similar conversation about Marshall amps.
I don’t think anyone is a bigger Metropoulos fan than me (not only is he a dear friend but I have 9 of his amps). I wouldn’t pretend to speak for George but it doesn’t take too much imagination to consider the very best Metropoulos as a once in a lifetime piece of equipment however a Dumble even in name only is more like once a century not unlike a 1959 Gibson Les Paul going for a half $1 million and a perfect reproduction going for $35,000 where there’s no individual Marshall/Metropoulos relationship that would compare (although for George’s sake I wish he was selling his masterpieces for $35k!) the sun would definitely be shining in Michigan
Each Dumble amp was different.It’s not like churning out a Fender reverb reissue from the 60s to modern day(I have both).I’m very dubious plus I have bills to pay.
Pretty sure the exact same thing is said here - more than once. Nevertheless, they have a trademark to protect, so I think that forces their hand a bit.
![Victory Amps MK Clean & OD [With Martin Kidd & Lee Anderton]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/PgKHBpHKQ-g/mqdefault.jpg)
Robben’s Dumble od channel works fine now, check That Pedal Show episode where they play it.
Great episode guys. I honestly think this all sounds really terrible. I feel like this the last thing Alexander would've wanted. What made Dumble amps special is Dumble himself. Everyone who builds amps has to know that it's the builder who makes the amp special and not just the quality of parts or the design of the amp. The man was a genius. It just sounds like some business men getting together to try and profit off the hard work of Dumble and his legacy. Sounds like old fashioned human greed to me. I am all for keeping his name alive but not so that a small number of people can profit off his work. I think getting some of the best amp techs in the world together to recreate a few models would be really cool, but not in the spirit of trying to make money. Very off putting for me, and why would anyone want one? it wasn't built by the man himself, the legend!
@@jamesemerson4102 Stop gate-keeping bro. More people deserve to have the dumble sound if they want it. It shouldnt be reserved for rich collectors. Dumble stood on the shoulders of Leo Fender designs, lets not forget that
@@Starch1b2c3d4a Mate, if they're going to charge $50k for an amp then obviously it will still be only rich people who can buy them, right? Also, they're not getting a dumble anyway they're just getting another clone, and these are already being made. You can already get an amp that sounds pretty close to a dumble and there is nothing wrong with that. Putting the name Dumble on it is not going to make it a better amp and certainly not what he himself would've built for you using his decades of expertise and his ears. Robben Ford has said that Dumble did not pass along the technology and he didn't train any apprentice. Dumble didn't care about money and what he built was art, and you will never have a real Dumble amp without Dumble himself. The man lived his craft and was a one man operation. To use the name and then charge $20-50k for an amp, as if it was made by the man himself? just seems wrong to me. He was a one man operation not a big corporate company. I have a Dumble clone myself, and so it has nothing to do with people deserving or not deserving of anything. I love dumble style pedals and amps.
@@jamesemerson4102 They can definitely mass produce his designs for 3-4 grand a amp. Thats the best way to do it. The guy was a hermit and did not know how to scale the operation anyway. Plenty of people can do what he couldnt. I'd say start the mass production and clones of his designs. Put the Dumble name on them. Its only a matter of time, so start early
@@Starch1b2c3d4a They could do that but will they sell them for that price? I'm talking more about if they're trying to make a fortune off them at like $50k. I think THAT is really off. Also though, Dumble was indeed an especially talented amp builder. It just seems weird and very off to take a name that was a 1 man operation and build amps in his name after he's gone, unless he passed on the knowledge and wanted it. The magic of a brilliant amp is not just a circuit or even quality parts. It's got to be tuned at the end with someone who has VERY good ears. Tubes need to be rolled etc to find the best sounding tubes for the amp and any other tweaking. I would be highly speculative of who the builder is but like I said if they got a bunch of the worlds best techs together to try and recreate some models I think that's cool, however there is no way it will come close to the level of his amps with the quality of parts used etc. even Two-rocks don't use the absolute highest quality parts available and their amps can cost upto $10k. With Dumble, it was no expense spared with parts.
People will find/hype someone that made even less amps if 'Dumble' is on new amps. The cleans are ok but the drive just doesn't sound good.
Seems to me that there is a consistency within the Dumble design no matter the model like the cleans and the touch sensitive dynamics and sustain to my ears atleast wether it’s SRV’s Steel String Stringers or Robin Ford’s ODS etc.. And I think that’s a baseline to do a mass produced amplifier if they do.. there’s many companies out there making clones that are pretty close and they would have to compete price point wise also.. just my thoughts
I think there are overarching things, yes. I think at that point, however, they're not unique enough from a Two Rock or any other Dumble style brand that is interpreting generalized Dumble designs as so much of the magic of a Dumble was his sensibilities. It would be difficult to interpret that outside of the man himself.
AI can only repeat something- not create- The Human Brain can be remarkable
I think the word you were looking for is “reissue”. The new Dumbles will be reissues of his original designs.
I didn't use that work as there is no single Overdrive Special, or Steel String Singer, etc. circuit. It's a little different when it's a Deluxe Reverb - an amp that was made to be mass produced off of a standardized design that didn't change (other than the component tolerances). This isn't that. It's more of a tribute than a reissue.
@@VertexEffectsInc homage
A bit of more evidence of Dumble defending their trademark on amps. Amplified Nation makes Dumble clones and had two models that were named the same as actual Dumbles. I believe they were the Steel String Singer and Overdrive Reverb? Back in May, they announced via Instagram that they would change the names to "Six String Sustain" and "Phoenix Fury". My guess is this was probably due to a cease and desist request rather than an impromptu rebranding. This has been going on behind the scenes for several months.
I remember when the dumble trademark was filed (2020 iirc). It looked like it was a trademark troll. I don’t see Howard ever letting the brand go on.
Someone taking the dumble name and designs, and trying to make money off of it… reminds me of something a certain “pedal builder” named mason would do.
If they have Dumble schematics of Santana's amplifier, or SRV'S, or whomerver, they sell that version of the Dumble amplifier. People are paying huge amounts to buy Dumble amps not customized for them, so if a player can buy an exact copy of an original Dumble at a resonable price, they will.
The problem is, it will be far more expensive than say a Ceriatone or even a Two-Rock if they use parts to the quality that Dumble would've used, and it's really the tuning at the end of the build that is the most important thing about making an amp brilliant. We do already have schematics and we can already buy clones like the Ceriatone OTS, Welagan ODS, Bludotone, etc. They're already brilliant clones. This would be another clone and no different. I think you're right, someone would buy them, but personally I think that's highly disrespectful to the guy and his legacy considering he definitely would not have wanted this. The amps won't really be Dumbles because they weren't built by him. He put far too much energy and gave too much attention to each individual amp for them to simply be cloned. I think if Dumble had an apprentice or passed along knowledge, that might be different.
Whats the point of a Dumble amp that Alexander did not build himself. He obviously had some sort of mojo in his finger tips.
I think this will be the hard part of selling the amps. How do you spin that?
Robben said on that pedal show tat Dumble had no aprentice, never seen a schematic and died in poverty. How can someone have the IP after his death?
I really enjoyed the discussion. At the same time, may I suggest that the discussion seemed rather off topic for the Chairmen series. It also ended up being a pretty one-sided discussion, so perhaps this would be better fitting just as a Vertex video, I don't know. I really love the show and have watched every episode, many several times, so I don't mean to be critical at all. Appreciate you guys big time! Just thought it may be helpful feedback.
"DUMBLE By JM". The only way.
Brian needs a SM7b
Normally he does. I think his interface went down before the podcast.
Everyone needs an SM7b
Yeah I have one my interface is just being repaired
Dumble amps were 2-5 grand in the 80’s before customizations. That’s 7,652-19,132 NOW. Two rock is cheap in comparison. You can get 4 two rock 100 watt heads and 212 cabs used for less than 19 grand.
That is true, and your "today" dollar estimate is probably close enough for argument sake. BUT, .... my take on it is that you can't really compare having two-rock make you an amp, with having Howard Dumble making you an amp....... Forget about all the Dumble mystique, over hype or over price that might exist..... the fact remains that two rock is a "production" amp builder..... albeit maybe "low" production? I don't know, but for certain, ordering a Dumble was a FAR more custom, individualized process, which admittedly doesn't necessarily equal better or worse sound, but it for sure equals more exclusive, ie pricey. So yeah you could buy 4 two rocks or whatever you said, for the cost of one dumble in equalized inflation dollars, but I just think it's hard to compare..... again, forget about the sound, or "perceived" value etc...... The exclusivity and "one off" nature of the dumbles makes it very hard to compare the "value" between the two. Just my worthless 2 cents, lol ......
@ I get that dumble customized the amp to the person. However two is being compared because they are the most successful modern equivalent .
@@SAIBOT64 The other consideration is that if you're are having Dumble make it, it's considerably cheaper than buying it on the second hand market. Most of the prices we hear are resold Dumble's from the 70s, 80s, and 90s. As I said in the video, I think they were around $50K 10 years ago (but I could be misremembering). I've heard of guys paying $20K in the early 2000's. Again, I'm only repeating what I've heard from other owners. Not sure how valid those numbers are.
There is no way a mass manufactured Dumble should command $50K. I mean their are idiots out there that have more money than sense, but it should be no more than any other boutique amp manufacturer, $3500 to $4500 USD. Look you can get the best Plexi ever made from George Metropolis and thats for $3500 for a 50 watt version and $4500 for the 100 Watt. These amps are superb in build quality and sound amazing as good as you can get for a Plexi.
The $50K was my number (guess) not theirs, so I wouldn’t critique it yet as gospel. Also, as great as George’s amps are, you can get a real vintage Plexi for about that same price.
@@VertexEffectsInc But you won't get a master volume and you won't get two amps in one like the Metropolos MKII which has Georges amp and then be able to also get EVH amp which was yea almost stock but had the 50K stock pot and a fat cap.
@@Cpt_Adama I'm not making that argument. All I'm saying is it's not comparable because there is much more supply of even vintage Plexi's than Dumble amps that they can't be compared on price. Should Jim Marshall have only made 200 Plexi's in his life, I suspect we'd be having a similar conversation about Marshall amps.
I don’t think anyone is a bigger Metropoulos fan than me (not only is he a dear friend but I have 9 of his amps). I wouldn’t pretend to speak for George but it doesn’t take too much imagination to consider the very best Metropoulos as a once in a lifetime piece of equipment however a Dumble even in name only is more like once a century not unlike a 1959 Gibson Les Paul going for a half $1 million and a perfect reproduction going for $35,000 where there’s no individual Marshall/Metropoulos relationship that would compare (although for George’s sake I wish he was selling his masterpieces for $35k!) the sun would definitely be shining in Michigan
Each Dumble amp was different.It’s not like churning out a Fender reverb reissue from the 60s to modern day(I have both).I’m very dubious plus I have bills to pay.
Pretty sure the exact same thing is said here - more than once. Nevertheless, they have a trademark to protect, so I think that forces their hand a bit.
If Alexander did not build it, it is not a Dumble. This is a bad endeavor in so many ways. I hate when companies recycle iconic brand names!
Of course they will be made again. Too much money on the table
Separately from that, they need to make them to protect the name.