I actually disagree about bringing back Emerl. I consider the GBA Sonic games to be their own continuity, so I think Tails restoring his AI, if that's how we're perceiving the ending, works pretty well because it neatly wraps up the conflict of those games, Eggman. At the end of Sonic Battle Tails has a monologue about how once people stop fighting each other maybe they could play with Emerl again, and then at the end of SA3 Sonic and Eggman set aside their differences to stop a greater threat. I kind of think this works to show that Eggman would see the greater consequences of his actions since they've now gone straight in his face (within the context that these games are separate from the main series). I like to think that this would make Eggman stop trying to conquer the world, especially because Emerl already tried talking to Eggman about using his wits for something better. Kind of planting the seeds for this idea. And now with that context out of the way, I think Tails restoring Emerl's AI could work in this context as a way of showing how great things would be without war, instead of showing how bad things are because of it because in my opinion Tails restoring Emerl's AI suggests that Eggman has stopped trying to take over the world. Of course, that is reading into things too much. I like to think SEGA is tying into Tails' monologue about once war is gone they'll be able to play with Emerl again, but I know they're not. As you've said they don't care. But, thinking of things this way allows the GBA games to be a short, sweet little alternate universe that has a compelling story and heartwarming ending. If only SEGA would just give up on trying to convince everyone all the games have a shared canon.
I love this way of looking at things. I already see many Sonic game subseries as their own separate continuities. So making the GBA games all separated from most other things to make the ending of Battle get some nice payoff for the series finale? Sign me up.
I disagree on the grounds that Sonic is a character-driven franchise that is very much founded in its own history, and a world of mystery. While seeing each subseries as its own continuity can certainly wrap up plot holes, I think what it removes from the franchise far outweighs whatever quality can be gained from a consistent lore. The series stands to gain more from trying to loosely unify its history, than it does from trying to ignore large swathes of it just to pretend it never had any plot holes. While it's clear a lot of the games aren't created with continuity expressly in mind, a lot of them rely on the player's investment with the franchise and knowledge of past events in mind. Battle relies on the player knowing the events of Adventure (even though it seems to contradict it), and also sets up character dynamics for Heroes (even though it seems to contradict it). Sonic Forces relies on your investment in Adventure 1/2 and Generations (even though it seems to contradict it). Generations relies on you being invested in the entire Sonic franchise as a whole (even though it seems to contradict in). This creates a franchise that attempts to link into itself, but when examined closely, doesn't do so neatly. This can lead people to believe that none of it should correlate. However, that runs contrary to the obvious spirit of these games -- Sonic going across many strange portions of one world and carrying across the history of all of the friends and memories he's made across the years. The contradictions and plot holes come from writers who are not capable or communicative enough to properly link them together. _Not_ a lack of intention for everything to link together. As a result, I believe the solution of, "everything should be separate," is a flawed one that sacrifices too much. The proper solution is, "Get a writer onboard who can actually piece together past material into one coherent lore, for once." And that's exactly what Ian Flynn is doing during his tenure with the company -- applying a light coating of retcon paste to past games to _finally_ make these games (relatively) seamless as was intended, so that they can _finally_ go forward with a unified, solidified idea of what the Sonic world _is._ The IDW comics and the Tailstube series are a great example of this, right down to including Gemerl within the new continuity. I'd recommend giving them a perusal if you're curious. And if you're already not a fan of them, then... Sorry for the inconvenience. In short: The series stands to benefit much more from attempting a unified world than it does from separating itself into much smaller ones. The solution is to hire writers who can do this better, not to cut the idea off at its heels.
@@mythosinfinite6736 fair point, but with the games we have there are a lot of contradictions and I think it's quite frustrating to try and peice together a puzzle with peices that just don't fit together. Therefore I find it nicer to treat subseries' as separate stories wherein character details remain the same unless stated otherwise. Of course, if SEGA solved these consistency issues and provided engaging stories at the same time, I do think it'd be cool for Sonic to have sort of a MCU through Infinity War sort of thing going on where everything connects together in a satisfying way. But the games we have don't do that, and I highly doubt story is ever going to be a high enough priority to SEGA for SonicTeam to have the resources to ensure a connected continuity.
@@mythosinfinite6736 I'm not trying to undermine Ian Flynn either. I think his stuff is good and he has me hopeful for the future of Sonic stories, but I just don't think he'll be payed properly for his work if he does accomplish that. I think it'd be the culmination of a lot of work of passion. But I just can't see SEGA allowing SonicTeam to pay someone appropriately for that work since it's been made pretty clear in the past that they're totally fine with it being half-assed.
@@mythosinfinite6736 I would also add that it's not always the case that games are meant to tie together. Unleashed for example, makes a clear effort to distance itself from everything the series had been doing for the past several years. That game could take place after 3K with no other games occurring and nothing would contradict that. And while it's probably true that they want this to all be one coherent thing, they also make little effort to actually make it one coherent thing. When one is so willing to throw away previous events, change characters entirely game to game, and contradict established things, it tells me they don't actually care. Where are the humans in Forces? They're not part of that game's story, so they don't exist. No more thought was put into it than that. That is not one coherent universe.
16:37 In Chronicles Tails asks Nestor the Wise (echidna historian) whether it was Emerl who destroyed their civilization or not, and he answers that it's kinda true, cause Emerl was too dangerous to the world and their civilization had to be exiled
Chronicles fans do exist, what with me being one of them. I know the game isn’t great, but it had promise and I wish it did better because I genuinely like the game.
Sonic Chronicles has a special place in my heart. It was so hard being echidna lore fan. I really wanted more of them since the Adventure and Sonic X, but, like, you know, without Archie convoluted story - it was just... boring. How did you manage to make ancient civilization with shiny rocks boring??
@@joinme5560 Facts, there's so much cool Sonic lore even beyond these hidden gems. This is a side of the fandom that I wish was more known instead the weird fetishes and creepy pastas
Something random I always liked in Sonic Chronicles Codex, is that it acknowledges the events from the Shadow The Hedgehog game directly in one of its entries describing past events. (Even directly references the Black Arms if I recall.) It's like the only Sonic game that directly references that game and that was something I always thought was cool.
I think you can justify Emerl's (probable) revival in Sonic Advance 3 by thinking of how the conflict of Sonic and co. VS Eggman was what ended up killing him in the first place, but Sonic and Eggman actually come together to try to reverse the effects of that conflict in Advance 3, which can kinda make Tails' last line in Battle feel a little more sweet because Emerl's revival was sort of a glimpse at a world like one he described, a world where they would be able to see Emerl again. That's just a thought I had.
I could go either way on which way works better from a story perspective (I get way too attached to characters sometimes so I prefer Emerl's revival because it makes me feel good), but I would say that in a way, Advance 3 doesn't undermine, but rather compliments those ideas from Battle.
Personally, I interpret Emerl is "living on" in "spirit" of Gemerl. Emerl was their first attempt at bringing this robot over to a side of compassion, and relationships, and etc. A first attempt that tragically failed. Gemerl is the second attempt, therefore, giving leeway to the idea that the hope the Sonic cast had for Emerl lives on through Gemerl, with him successfully leading a life where he wishes to protect Cream. Emerl is dead, but what he represented and wanted lives on through Gemerl.
Considering how much Sonic Chronicles took inspiration from the comics you have to wonder if the comics were originally going to have a Sonic Chronicles tie in arc similar to the Sonic Adventure Arc and the Shattered Worlds Arc(which was the Sonic Unleashed arc)
Actually iirc, it's explained in dialogue with NPCs in SA1 that Pachamac and crew becoming warmongers was itself him committing necessary evils because the Knuckles tribe was starving. Tikal's Grandma was against it, but once Pachacamac took over, he pushed on ahead with it, and eventually going as far as to use the Emeralds for more and more power. The idea of the Nocturnus clan then being an overwhelming force they needed the emeralds for doesn't *really betray* the original game's themes then, because yes while the warmongering ways were originally presented as an escalation of greed, the reason they even did that in the first place was itself out of desperation. I actually very much liked the idea of the Gizoids being made by the Nocturnus clan, it really tied things together in a very neat way. It's a shame this is axed and off the table now because reasons. That's actually a really good point about Gemerl. yea, why wasn't he here? I can only guess the devs didn't know about him or maybe SEGA didn't let them tap him? They referenced Amy's tarot cards for pete's sake so that would be strange. They certainly did a fair deal of homework however about they did it. 19:51 Silly Bioware. You think this is a *competent* corporation? Surely you jest. :P
@@Pariah6950 Yea it's easy to miss. The themes of SA1 also touch on war being bad in this respect, but also on the idea that the desperate situation of the knuckles clan pushed them to commit said atrocities, so even they for as bad as they were, were victims as well. Part of the series' overall theming is that humanity is not inherently bad because people ultimately just want to live better lives. Which of course ties back into Sonic himself. -cleaned up my initial post btw-
I feel like Chronicles has a lot of cool ideas that ends up being pretty much wasted. I think Shade is a pretty cool character and the extra lore about the ancient Echidna civilizations and the Gizoids are also something I really appreciate but all this cool stuff is not just attached to a game that isn't really that good at all but also the fact that a lot of this stuff didn't really return afterwards thanks to the gigantic elephant in the room but regardless, I am glad you did this video as this is sort of the aspect of the lore I was very interested in, even if the canonicity is dubious at best.
OMG, imagine that: the Knuckles Clan and the Marauders starting out as enemies, then a descendant from each faction comes together as friends. That would've been perfect.
Good to see i'm not the only one that has this special felling when beating Sonic Advance 3, unlike the others in the trilogy, this one is so much more happier and nicer, thanks to actually being something that all characters share unlike the other ones, since even in Advance 2 true ending, we end with Sonic running to the sunset alone, what is a very cool ending, but doesn't match the charm of a group picture or seeing Gemerl getting their happy ending, by the way, i'm on the team that sees Gemerl as in a similiar situation as Shadow, as in the original 100% died but this one is like a complete new person in the body of the original, in this case a better body even, since they have the power to transform in diferent things, (something that i think they should use in the IDW comics more) but in the end they are a new individual with no memories from Emerl itself for example, so it could be seen as Gemerl is a Emerl from zero or something similiar, since they still has aspects like going bersek when seeing extreme power, in Advance 3 case i believe it was being near the Master Emerald alongside the seven Chaos Emeralds.
Chronicles does explain how Emerl “destroyed” the 4th Great Civilization. It’s when you run into Nestor the old Echidna in the latter half of the game. Apparently due to how powerful the Gizoids were in battle it led to the Nocturnus conquering everything. Their success led to them being ripped away by Argus. It’s not a total retcon just a bit of a technicality. Really it’s just an ass pull. But the fact they noticed the contradiction and tried to make an excuse is better than the vast majority of the series.
The fact that developers state that Gemerl was created by Eggman makes it seem like Eggman didn't even care if Emerl died, he made this and put it against us, he's literally the worst for doing this.
I highly doubt Gemerl recalls anything Emerl lived through. If that were the case, given how strict Sega seems to be with IDW, Gemerl would likely just act like Emerl in those comics.
This review took me by surprise. Not because of Advance 3, I thought it would be an epilogue of Battle, but because of Chronicles. Gemerl only appeared in Advance 3, and was completely ignored by the franchise. Only Archie comics brought him back briefly as a copy of Emerl in personality, but then IDW came and turned him into a stoic robot character whose personality is to be Cream's caretaker. When asked on the Bumblekast, I remember Flynn stated he had very little notes regarding Gemerl and even he ain't sure what is he supposed to be. Emerl revived? Emerl reborn? Emerl's "brother"? Gemerl is something of an enigma, but thanks to IDW he caught a lot of more interest. Regarding Chronicles: I'm shocked. I never thought I would see you talk about it because t's American made, since you tend to focus in the Japanese original. I was wondering if you were ever gonna review Lost World English dub first since it's the original. I don't blame you, I've been trying to replay Chronicles to help a group but it's just very dull, and while I like elements of the story, it's not exactly great. The characterization of the characters is over the place, which is a shame as I like the Nocturnus Clan.
I've actually been thinking of doing a video on the American and European classic stories. And I do plan to cover the cartoons, comics, movies, etc a little. For games written in English, I will cover them in English, but also talk about the Japanese changes.
@@Pariah6950 Good! Can't wait! I'm especially interested in hearing your thoughts on Sonic X and how it adapted the stories, since that caught my interest! I've seen the Japanese versions of Colors, Rise of Lyric and Lost World. Rise of Lyric had the most changes as it practically rewrote the characters to be more similar to their original counterparts...which kinda kills the purpose of an Alternate Universe, but who cares, Boom was a mess with too many people putting the hands on it. Makes me wonder if you will skip Boom entirely.
@@tonycorona8501 I will talk about the Boom show a bit. But I don't know about the games. They're not really Sonic games, if you know what I mean. They're really licensed games based on a cartoon that just so happens to be based on a game series.
5:27 - 5:43 Like Metal Sonic. 18:02 - 18:48 Also I doubt they WANT to consider Chronicles non-canon, but it's more that it's in a position of "they HAVE to" because of the legal nightmare a certain someone caused and won't be quiet about or just reopens the wound of that dispute. Plus the game didn't really sell well so it's a double whammy of "this game got the extremely short end of the stick". It's why we haven't really seen ANYTHING relating to the Gizoids or the Nocturnus Clan. Gemerl they can get away with because there isn't anything outright stating if it's Emerl or if he's connected to the Nocturnus Clan.
Playing this right after Battle really makes sonic once again fighting (G)emerl even more tragic. Losing him the first time was crushing to everyone and Sonic realizes he has to fight and destroy his son a second time.
"They assumed Sega got its shit together" Rookie mistake, we've all been there. For all its flaws, I really like the Echidna stuff in Chronicles. I wish Sega had picked up the idea again, it's too good to pass up. Also, I really like the aesthetic of the game. I know the graphics look horrible and completely fucked up, but the artstyle is very reminiscent of the Advance games, it's so "Sonic", and I'm glad they at least got that right considering they referenced the Advance games and Battle.
I'm pretty sure the reason Argus (The Tentacle Like being) sealed away the nocturnus was because of the creation of Emerl. This is actually a valid reason for Ix and his clan being sealed to the Twilight Cage, Considering how powerful Emerl is when absorbing the chaos emeralds It would be easy for ix to take over the world. Eventually while Gerald Robotnik was researching for a way to make shadow, he stumbled upon emerl. Being sealed away by argus made ix go mad because he was so close to his goal. after the Knuckles clan got wiped out by Perfect chaos the Emeralds were just sitting there after they tried to steal it. Also, there was going to be a sequel to Sonic Chronicles probably with sonic having to fight argus, but for obvious reasons (Ken Penders) that didn't happen.
Probably. But the implication in Battle is that Emerl himself went on a rampage on destroyed the civilization. It works, but is altered from the original intent for him. I would certainly like to see Argus expanded upon one day. But we all know that's never going to happen.
@@Pariah6950 True. Ix is actually one of my favorite sonic characters because of the potential lore he could have made and how his existence in cannon could develop knuckles further as a character. Truly sad that the story will never be developed further.
Most of the Codex contradictions are in Amy's profile. They call her "Amy Rose the Hedgehog" and say that she formed "Team Amy" with Cream and Big. The profiles for the Knuckles Clan and the Nocturnus Clan say that they battled 4,000 years ago, and that after Perfect Chaos nearly destroyed the Knuckles Clan, the Nocturnus Clan disappreared; the Sonic Adventure: Navigation Guide in Japan, however, says that this took place 3,000 years ago. Shadow's profile says that Sonic and Shadow teamed up to defeat Eggman and then disappeared when Shadow only fought the Biolizard and teamed up with Super Sonic to fight him as the Final Hazard. Tails's profile itself is fine, but it's titled "Tails the Fox" like that's the entirety of his nickname. So yeah, not as many goofs/errors as the Encyclo-speed-ia, but still bothersome. That's without getting into the actual game, of course.
7:23 The reason for that has to do with how ST and Sega is structured, while yes ST did work on these hand held games. The specific people working on those games compared to the mainline ones are pretty different, most notably with the directors and writers. Who decide to overarching plot of the games. The change in directors and writers that is common with Sonic Team is likely the reason for this phenomenon as different people likely aren't always aware of what other directors have done in terms of the story and sorta just end up doing their own thing
IDW, while not canon, gives us insight into what Sega's direction for Gemerl is. He doesn't act like Emerl, so Gemerl is supposed to be his own guy, his own character. He is just Emerl's spiritual successor. This doesn't fix the story not being more clear, but it does fix your issue about how reviving Emerl would be bad, since it's not really him. I hypothesize that "Emerl's data" mainly referred to his ability to "learn" and "grow". He calls himself a "learning robot" in IDW, so his combat ability in Advance 3 getting better is him "learning". I don't think he has Emerl's copy, but it's not really clear I guess. Stuff like the missiles or his red shield are original attacks, so I'd place my bets on no. A bit disappointing that Chronicles doesn't get full proper coverage, but I guess it doesn't matter since it's not really canon. Chronicles was a neat effort but got some lore stuff wrong. I like Shade, and the Nocturnus making the Gizoid(s) is a fun idea. I also think she had potential for future stuff, but we know how that goes. Either way, I think watching a playthrough and covering the story in-depth would've been better than this frankly half-hearted coverage of it.
It wasn't just not wanting to play through the game or watch a 9 hour playthrough (Though that was the largest part of it), but I also don't love the idea of using other people's footage. I'd rather use all my own recordings. So if I'm not going to play the game, I've got nothing to use. Sorry. Like I said, I figured this would be better than nothing. Which is what I did for things like Shuffle because who cares.
I would like to point a few things you may be missed as you didn't play the game fully. Chronicles does actually pay homage to Gerald in Battle theorizing that it was Emerl to have nuked the 4th civilization by having the Character Nestor claim that their banishment to the Twilight cage happened pretty much right after finishing their Ultimate Gizoid which he would later come to know as Emerl so in a way did Emerl still destroy that civilization. (Also given how Chronicles ends on a cliff hanger it's not unlikely that they did plan to bring Gemerl in for the sequel given that Shade stayed with the Heroes) Chronicles also has quite a few noticeable continuity hiccups in in its Codex (a in game Sonic encyclopedia) Also, Chronicles is placed 2 years in the future from pretty much everything else in the franchise as its manual points out. On the Advance 3 front can't the Cream and Gemerl ending be taken from Sonic X. Advance 3 launched before the first airing of Sonic X Emerl arc in Japan by quite a few months actually. If anything, its X which paired Cream with Emerl because of Advance 3. And as you pointed out Advance 3's story beats are all super wholesome so what could be more wholesome and the cute bunny redeeming the clone of a friend she lost? And while Nonaggression is a remix of Emerl's them so was the same theme also in a remixed way used by Battle itself for fights against the E-121 Phi's. Also, a nice detail Gemerl's stand is Sonic's from Sonic battle.
I didn't realize X was after Advance 3. Shoulda looked up the timeframe. Maybe it is just trying to be wholesome there then. Thanks for sharing all this info.
@@Pariah6950 Yes Sonic X Sonic Battle adaptation (or to be more precise the first episode with Emerl in it) released January 2005 while Advance 3 game out June 2004.
It's a shame Sonic Chronicles has to be non-canon, because I love so much of its expanded lore and character interactions. I kinda just wish it being canon or non-canon wasn't stated one way or another and were simply left to interpretation, like it could just be a "something that happens after all the games" type of thing. Or you could do what that one fan theory suggested and make it so the beginning of Unleashed is the eventual conclusion to Chronicles' cliffhanger. Anyways, I feel that way about a lot of Sonic things, actually; I dislike how Ian Flynn outright confirmed the Japanese manuals for the Genesis Sonic games are non-canon now, that bugged me too. I get wanting to streamline the franchise for newcomers to the "lore" (for lack of a better term), but you also run the risk of alienating certain fans in the process.
@@Pariah6950 The cutscenes in Sonic Origins now replace the original Japanese manuals. This was a Sonic Team decision in order to streamline and clarify continuity (this seems to be something they're pushing lately, as made further evident by TailsTube, possibly because of the success of the Sonic movie-- but that's just speculation on my part). Check out 48:10 of BumbleKast July 6th, 2022, 5:24 of BumbleKast September 19th, 2022, and 47:33 of BumbleKast August 29th, 2022 (that last one being the most important, since Ian confirms this is a Sonic Team decision and not just something that's coming from him).
@@LupinticDream Not too surprising. I'd actually be okay with a superhero style history rewrite for Sonic to clean everything up. But it'd have to cover everything up to now.
Haven't watched the video yet but the fact that the video talking about the story of the silly little episodic fighting game is almost an hour longer than the one talking about the story of an actual rpg (which said video is also split with another game's story) is just... so funny and yet so depressing for Chronicles specifically.
I honestly feel like Gemerl should go through a story of being his own robot. If Sonic Chronicles is ever made canon, he could go through a self search mission and find out more about his Gizoid Past… only to realize that he shouldn’t focus on the family he used to have… but the family he has now. (Aka Cream, Cheese, Vanilla, and Chocola) This is honestly my take on how Gemerl’s story should be. Aka its my opinion.
5:55 This would be Shadow 2 instead of the preferred, Gamma and Omega 2. Gemrel is like Omega, being based on another robot, but is their own separate character.
the only problem with chronicles really is that it ends on a cliff-hanger of eggman conquering the world which isn't followed up on, quite a few years before forces even which is amusing. in my headcanon all the nocturnus-gizoid thing is part of the lore, but not the events of the game itself. as far as im concerned, emerl killed every single one of the nocturnus clan instead of them being swallowed to the phantom zone by cthulhu.
Yeah and in terms of headcanons, mine about the cliffhanger is that it leads to Sonic Unleashed. Where Sonic inevitably just destroys everything Eggman’s built and he uses his contingency with Dark Gaia to maintain at least part of his rule in Eggmanland.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 Considering the legal issues that was started due to the very existence of Sonic Chronicles? I don’t think we’re ever going to get a follow up of the game.
People thinking Gemerl = Emerl never sat well with me in general (or in gemerl lol) Like the whole idea of Gemerl being just a reprogrammed Emerl is just lame and honestly Gemerl in general is kinda lame imo. I know IDW does stuff with him that is cool but even then he’s not even that much interesting stuff going on himself to warrant coming back
I doubt Emerl and Gemerl are the same character by the end of Advance 3. I think he just had the data Emerl had. Since Eggman wouldn't want to risk the whole betraying him cos someone showed more power thing.
Gemearl to me is kind of like while they restored his AI they did not restore his link with sonic So that Emearls memories aren’t a part of Gemearl, making him a separate character as he is a gizoid with all tails could do is bring the regular functions of him back while also removing some negatives
You said you don’t find Battle to be in the same continuity for shadow and other stuff, that would also put both advance 3 and chronicles on this timeline in theory if we were to dismiss battle? I don’t think that it’s possible for chronicles to be canon though. I read that there are a lot of contradictions in that game to established canon. Granted, there are contradictions in most Sonic games.
By "canon" I mean throw it in the same giant pile of nonsense as everything else. Nothing in it is much worse than what you see in many other Sonic games.
The potential that the sonic the hedgehog franchise has for its story, world building and lore is insane, there is so much Sonic team could do but instead we get lacklustre games with stories that a limited by mandates and terrible writers (yes i know Ian Flynn is writing frontiers but with the mandates still up based off what he's said and has had to do in the comics, he's still limited) because Sega and sonic team always take the wrong lessons from issues they create. the cast of sonic 06 controlled poorly? they only make sonic playable for the foreseeable future. Sonic generations did well? well that's clearly because of the reuse of older levels and classic sonic. there's so much more examples i could list. Also I'm sure someone else has brought it up but gemerl is actually heavily featured in the IDW comics but he seems to have lost his copy ability, or at least he hasn't used it from what i can remember. I would love to see the story of sonic chronicles be adapted and rewritten to make the main villain a bit more interesting for the main games. Maybe make it a spin-off that becomes canon to the main timeline (whatever that is anymore)
I always took Gemerl as Emerl coming back, and I kinda agree I dislike that as Emerl’s death was a big emotional moment. But I cannot lie I love Gemerl’s design and it does make me sad that he has joined the cast of the most underutilized characters in the series. Like, there is something to be said about the Sonic games always over using the cast because Sonic’s character is supposed to be running around the world exploring all the time, but they could have used Gemerl ONCE at least after Advance 3. At least he is in the IDW comic :)
15:30 I don’t think that’s what they were going for. Maybe he used the emeralds too much prior to SA1’s backstory and got corrupted with the want for power, kinda like the Sonic 2 manual’s backstory. I just feel like it’s a little weird to think that Chaos was freed before The Nocturnas Clan was sealed, and it would make more sense why Pachacamac acted the way he did back then. It’s not like it can’t work like that, I just feel weird about the inconsistency in Pachacamac’s character. Also this and Shade is giving me major Archie Dark Legion vibes. No wonder why Ken, the person he is, did what he did.
No, it's not, just the thing is around that time the writers of Sonic X were also messing with games, so stuff has leaked from the show into them, like Amy's personality Sonic Battle and further, or this Cream caring the most about Emerl
I still don’t understand what you mean when you keep saying that reviving someone “undermines” the character. Maybe I just don’t understand the usage of the terminology? I googled it and “undermine” seems to be a common synonym for “weaken,” so you’re saying that reviving someone “weakens” their character? How? How does reviving Gemerl, Gamma, or Shadow “weaken” their character? How exactly does reviving them lessen their values, morals, pathos, etc? I said this before for the StH video, but a character that sacrifices themself, only to be brought back shortly after doesn’t change that person’s character. The *choice* to die for someone else is what holds significance, not the *act* of dying. (example: Jesus Christ) So I can’t agree with the above usage… Or… Do you actually mean that reviving someone weaken’s the *agency* of death, or the *urgency of the consequences* of death? Well, I can certainly agree with that.
By undermine the character, I mean that character's function as a storytelling device. Emerl as a character was created to die, for the purpose of conveying the theme that conflict causes suffering and loss. By bringing him back, if that's what's happening, it says that the losses can be undone. Which directly goes against what his character's purpose was supposed to be.
That’s interesting that chronicles is the one that crosses the line for you. Considering you went through all the old games even the Game Gear ones. I don’t think the graphics and sound would be huge issues. Calling it boring is a weird criticism. The the OSU like rhythm mechanics the combat from getting mindless. It adds some difficulty if you try to go for perfect scores. Plus it’s way shorter than most rpgs, at only 15 hours. With most of the filler content being skip able side quest. You said you’ve given it a shot so I guess you’ve seen what I’m talking about. But I’m really curious why you think it’s unplayably boring.
Like I said, I'm just not an RPG person. I get bored with them very easily. I've bounced off every Mother game, Golden Sun, Fire Emblem, Skies of Arcadia, etc. There are extremely few RPGs I've enjoyed. It's just not my genre.
It makes me sad that Chronicles gameplay and...well almost everything else sucked, cause the story is awesome. So many characters returning and things like that. There really needs to be a "reimagined" version of the game, so that it can be fixed where it needs to be (basically redo everything except most of the story)
I enjoy both Shadow the Hedgehog and Final Fantasy 13. I can find fun in both "bad" Sonic games and "bad" RPGs. But a bad Sonic RPG broke me, I couldn't even get 3 hours into Chronicles. If it's story was actually worthy and not just a mediocre narrative sweetened by some nice worldbuilding, I could totally grit my teeth through the repetitive battles and awful compressed-to-shit music. As for Gemerl, looking up the actual Japanese pronunciation, while Emerl sounds how you think it would based on the English name, eh-meh-ru, Gemerl is actually jii-meh-ru, which is why he's also apparently known as G-merl according to his page on Sonic Retro. And for his lore, IDW did it best I think- Emerl is dead for good, Gemerl is just a super advanced Phi unit made based on Emerl's data when Eggman had Emerl right at the start of Sonic Battle, before Emerl began growing. So in IDW, he speaks and acts more robotically, but still has a heart, like how Gamma was. I've heard Frontiers will be sort of a "reset" to the series lore, and god I hope that's true. Ian Flynn did a fantastic job with the IDW comics laying out what is canon and what may not be canon, the very first page of the first issue shows stuff from Adventure and Heroes and Unleashed and Forces, it's great. But, with concepts that previously conflicted in the lore, IDW either explains how both concepts are canon, or chooses one over the other. If Frontiers continues from this type of soft reset, maybe with a history section in the menus like the Metal Gear Solid games, explicitly laying out what is and isn't a part of main canonicity, I would be over the moon. Sonic lore has been a mess since his inception, with all the spinoffs and various universes and SEGA's *brilliant* idea to let each market come up with it's own lore so in Japan it's like the manga and Eggman and South Island and in the US it was Archie and Robotnik and Mobius and in the UK it was like Fleetway and Robotnik literally being part egg but not being called Eggman... a reset has been needed for literal decades. Story of Frontiers could still rock my balls off if it just doesn't explain anything from the past like 90% of the other Sonic stories, but god it would be nice to have a concise, clear timeline of games and events.
How are you doing this? It's like the opposite of "post-Popularity Creator burnout." It's like you just keep getting more adept at pumping out more content, speeding up the process, and... ... accelerating. Oh my god.
I can see where you're coming from with playing Chronicles dude. But, unfortunately, if you want to actually SEE these characters interacting with each other and having them all be playable, you may have to suck it up and deal. Yes, as a game, it sucks. Hard. I hate those touch screen controls with all my heart. However, this was maybe the very last time these characters were written well. It may NEVER go back to being that good again. Something to consider.
He who must not be named ruined my dreams of a totally feasible and probable cronicals remake that would nake it the best rpg ever and do all the cool ideas i have for a sonic trust me bro. Nah but for real the ken stuff makes me realy sad
@@Pariah6950 gmerl appears in IDW and fights omega, is that good enough for you ? Also fleetway uses many game canon elements, so you'd probabbly enjoy it.
Gemerl appears in the IDW comics Tangle (from the IDW comics) is referenced in Sonic Frontiers therefore the IDW comics are canon That means Gemerl is canon If Gemerl is canon then Emerl is canon, if Emerl is canon then the gizoids are canon, and since the Nocturnus clan created the gizoids they should be canon as well
I actually heavily disagree with Chronicles's retcons being for the better. In your own words it undermines the central conflict of SA1 by portraying Pachacamac as justified instead of driven by greed, but it also undermines Sonic Battle itself by denying Emerl's original destructive origin, an important piece to indicate how its usage for war is always inevitably going to lead to loss and suffering. But also... Sonic Chronicles's actual story is just not good. The entire cast are various degrees out OoC, most notably Sonic who acts extremely rude, distrusting, and selfish, but there's also Amy, Rouge, Shadow, Cream, and especially Big and Omega. And what the story's going for with the Nocturnus conflict undermines Knuckles's character, given his status as guardian was essentially the end-product of generational punishment for greed way back when, and that Knuckles just cannot retire because he's the only one left, he has a duty that directly contrasts with Sonic's freedom. Having Shade appear and join the crew does mean Knuckles is free from his duty. Plus, Shade isn't a very interesting character, and Ix isn't a very interesting villain, plus the entire crew trust Eggman for no real reason.
Sonic is only a jerk if you make him respond that way to the dialogue choices. The only character I could really consider OoC is Amy, since she's the clingiest there than she's ever been and it's not treated as a joke, so it's really painful to read her lines of dialogue. The other character are fine. You could say Shadow is a bit too overly pent up and agressive towards the group, but apart from him, I don't really see what flaws the other characters have. It's not like Big was anything but stupid, so...
@@quasar4780 "Sonic is only a jerk if you make him respond that way to the dialogue choices" Sonic being OoC due to dialogue options is STILL Sonic being OoC, and being a jerk is far from the only OoC thing he does, including stuff that happens without giving you a dialogue option (like when he sees Knuckles in breathing distance of Ix and instantly assumes that Knuckles turned traitor). Rouge is OoC for being a walking, talking sarcasm dispenser, Shadow is OoC for his sheer obsession with revenge and destruction, Cream is treated as someone who the crew don't want tagging along but who really wants to join herself. Big was never *stupid*, he was simple. SA1 Big was never so dumb that he couldn't figure out that his eyes were fucking closed. Omega doesn't even act like Omega, when has he ever treated other organic beings with such derision, and when has he ever called them "meatbags". It's like they read his motivation and then made a new character out of that.
Very good points here. Though, while Chronicles does kinda undermine the themes of previous games, Shadow also does that to SA2 but I still absolutely find that to be a great addition to the story. It's unfortunately inevitable with a series like this (especially with how little they care) to ignore the intentions and themes of previous entries. Battle itself ends on a hope that once conflict is over, they'll get to see Emerl again. Which we know will never happen because Eggman's always going to do something bad next game. There is no hope. The conflict will never end. So that's pretty depressing if you think about it. And in the case of Knuckles, they already ignore the duty he's supposed to be bound by. It's all fucked up already. Since I haven't played the game for myself, I don't know about the characterizations. But I'd certainly believe it. Not that inconsistent characterization is anything new for this series either... God, this series...
You know given chronicals has been brought up I do wanna ask given how tied it is to archie, do you think you'll ever talk about the comics? Like in general not archie specifically, be it archie, fleetway, the manga, idw, or so on. Be it like just talking about them as you do the story videos for the games or maybe like a video about their historical contexts in relation to the games as just an off the top of my head example.That and other media of sonic in general like the cartoons too like how much sonic x has had an influence on the game series. Apologies the word pasta btw. Also personally I never saw gemerl as a revival of emerl. I always sorta saw him more as the omega to gamma. We barely have anything to go off though in game canon and maybe Im just reading too much of his game characterization from supplementary material which itself isnt consistant between works. Generally though in those works he acts very different from how emerl did in game so I get the impression he's practically a different person at that point for all intensive purposes at least in those alternate canons. I do like IDWs take though of this defensive older brother type for cream, its really cute.
I actually disagree about bringing back Emerl. I consider the GBA Sonic games to be their own continuity, so I think Tails restoring his AI, if that's how we're perceiving the ending, works pretty well because it neatly wraps up the conflict of those games, Eggman. At the end of Sonic Battle Tails has a monologue about how once people stop fighting each other maybe they could play with Emerl again, and then at the end of SA3 Sonic and Eggman set aside their differences to stop a greater threat. I kind of think this works to show that Eggman would see the greater consequences of his actions since they've now gone straight in his face (within the context that these games are separate from the main series). I like to think that this would make Eggman stop trying to conquer the world, especially because Emerl already tried talking to Eggman about using his wits for something better. Kind of planting the seeds for this idea. And now with that context out of the way, I think Tails restoring Emerl's AI could work in this context as a way of showing how great things would be without war, instead of showing how bad things are because of it because in my opinion Tails restoring Emerl's AI suggests that Eggman has stopped trying to take over the world. Of course, that is reading into things too much. I like to think SEGA is tying into Tails' monologue about once war is gone they'll be able to play with Emerl again, but I know they're not. As you've said they don't care. But, thinking of things this way allows the GBA games to be a short, sweet little alternate universe that has a compelling story and heartwarming ending. If only SEGA would just give up on trying to convince everyone all the games have a shared canon.
I love this way of looking at things. I already see many Sonic game subseries as their own separate continuities. So making the GBA games all separated from most other things to make the ending of Battle get some nice payoff for the series finale? Sign me up.
I disagree on the grounds that Sonic is a character-driven franchise that is very much founded in its own history, and a world of mystery. While seeing each subseries as its own continuity can certainly wrap up plot holes, I think what it removes from the franchise far outweighs whatever quality can be gained from a consistent lore.
The series stands to gain more from trying to loosely unify its history, than it does from trying to ignore large swathes of it just to pretend it never had any plot holes.
While it's clear a lot of the games aren't created with continuity expressly in mind, a lot of them rely on the player's investment with the franchise and knowledge of past events in mind. Battle relies on the player knowing the events of Adventure (even though it seems to contradict it), and also sets up character dynamics for Heroes (even though it seems to contradict it). Sonic Forces relies on your investment in Adventure 1/2 and Generations (even though it seems to contradict it). Generations relies on you being invested in the entire Sonic franchise as a whole (even though it seems to contradict in).
This creates a franchise that attempts to link into itself, but when examined closely, doesn't do so neatly. This can lead people to believe that none of it should correlate. However, that runs contrary to the obvious spirit of these games -- Sonic going across many strange portions of one world and carrying across the history of all of the friends and memories he's made across the years.
The contradictions and plot holes come from writers who are not capable or communicative enough to properly link them together. _Not_ a lack of intention for everything to link together.
As a result, I believe the solution of, "everything should be separate," is a flawed one that sacrifices too much.
The proper solution is, "Get a writer onboard who can actually piece together past material into one coherent lore, for once." And that's exactly what Ian Flynn is doing during his tenure with the company -- applying a light coating of retcon paste to past games to _finally_ make these games (relatively) seamless as was intended, so that they can _finally_ go forward with a unified, solidified idea of what the Sonic world _is._
The IDW comics and the Tailstube series are a great example of this, right down to including Gemerl within the new continuity. I'd recommend giving them a perusal if you're curious. And if you're already not a fan of them, then... Sorry for the inconvenience.
In short: The series stands to benefit much more from attempting a unified world than it does from separating itself into much smaller ones. The solution is to hire writers who can do this better, not to cut the idea off at its heels.
@@mythosinfinite6736 fair point, but with the games we have there are a lot of contradictions and I think it's quite frustrating to try and peice together a puzzle with peices that just don't fit together. Therefore I find it nicer to treat subseries' as separate stories wherein character details remain the same unless stated otherwise. Of course, if SEGA solved these consistency issues and provided engaging stories at the same time, I do think it'd be cool for Sonic to have sort of a MCU through Infinity War sort of thing going on where everything connects together in a satisfying way. But the games we have don't do that, and I highly doubt story is ever going to be a high enough priority to SEGA for SonicTeam to have the resources to ensure a connected continuity.
@@mythosinfinite6736 I'm not trying to undermine Ian Flynn either. I think his stuff is good and he has me hopeful for the future of Sonic stories, but I just don't think he'll be payed properly for his work if he does accomplish that. I think it'd be the culmination of a lot of work of passion. But I just can't see SEGA allowing SonicTeam to pay someone appropriately for that work since it's been made pretty clear in the past that they're totally fine with it being half-assed.
@@mythosinfinite6736 I would also add that it's not always the case that games are meant to tie together. Unleashed for example, makes a clear effort to distance itself from everything the series had been doing for the past several years. That game could take place after 3K with no other games occurring and nothing would contradict that.
And while it's probably true that they want this to all be one coherent thing, they also make little effort to actually make it one coherent thing. When one is so willing to throw away previous events, change characters entirely game to game, and contradict established things, it tells me they don't actually care. Where are the humans in Forces? They're not part of that game's story, so they don't exist. No more thought was put into it than that. That is not one coherent universe.
16:37 In Chronicles Tails asks Nestor the Wise (echidna historian) whether it was Emerl who destroyed their civilization or not, and he answers that it's kinda true, cause Emerl was too dangerous to the world and their civilization had to be exiled
The fact that someone else cares about the story of Sonic Chronicles almost brings a tear to my eye
Chronicles fans do exist, what with me being one of them. I know the game isn’t great, but it had promise and I wish it did better because I genuinely like the game.
Sonic Chronicles has a special place in my heart. It was so hard being echidna lore fan. I really wanted more of them since the Adventure and Sonic X, but, like, you know, without Archie convoluted story - it was just... boring. How did you manage to make ancient civilization with shiny rocks boring??
@@joinme5560 Facts, there's so much cool Sonic lore even beyond these hidden gems. This is a side of the fandom that I wish was more known instead the weird fetishes and creepy pastas
It's unfortunate he didn't care as much as other poeple since chronicles is just an 11 minute segment here...
Right? Justice for Shade
Something random I always liked in Sonic Chronicles Codex, is that it acknowledges the events from the Shadow The Hedgehog game directly in one of its entries describing past events. (Even directly references the Black Arms if I recall.) It's like the only Sonic game that directly references that game and that was something I always thought was cool.
I think you can justify Emerl's (probable) revival in Sonic Advance 3 by thinking of how the conflict of Sonic and co. VS Eggman was what ended up killing him in the first place, but Sonic and Eggman actually come together to try to reverse the effects of that conflict in Advance 3, which can kinda make Tails' last line in Battle feel a little more sweet because Emerl's revival was sort of a glimpse at a world like one he described, a world where they would be able to see Emerl again. That's just a thought I had.
I could go either way on which way works better from a story perspective (I get way too attached to characters sometimes so I prefer Emerl's revival because it makes me feel good), but I would say that in a way, Advance 3 doesn't undermine, but rather compliments those ideas from Battle.
Personally, I interpret Emerl is "living on" in "spirit" of Gemerl. Emerl was their first attempt at bringing this robot over to a side of compassion, and relationships, and etc. A first attempt that tragically failed. Gemerl is the second attempt, therefore, giving leeway to the idea that the hope the Sonic cast had for Emerl lives on through Gemerl, with him successfully leading a life where he wishes to protect Cream. Emerl is dead, but what he represented and wanted lives on through Gemerl.
I kinda wish Gemerl appeared in Sonic Chronicles because they could have done something with that
I dont see why he couldnt have been a playable character tbh
Considering how much Sonic Chronicles took inspiration from the comics you have to wonder if the comics were originally going to have a Sonic Chronicles tie in arc similar to the Sonic Adventure Arc and the Shattered Worlds Arc(which was the Sonic Unleashed arc)
The comics did have a mini story that shows how the Marauders captured Knuckles but it never went further that this
Actually iirc, it's explained in dialogue with NPCs in SA1 that Pachamac and crew becoming warmongers was itself him committing necessary evils because the Knuckles tribe was starving. Tikal's Grandma was against it, but once Pachacamac took over, he pushed on ahead with it, and eventually going as far as to use the Emeralds for more and more power.
The idea of the Nocturnus clan then being an overwhelming force they needed the emeralds for doesn't *really betray* the original game's themes then, because yes while the warmongering ways were originally presented as an escalation of greed, the reason they even did that in the first place was itself out of desperation.
I actually very much liked the idea of the Gizoids being made by the Nocturnus clan, it really tied things together in a very neat way. It's a shame this is axed and off the table now because reasons.
That's actually a really good point about Gemerl. yea, why wasn't he here? I can only guess the devs didn't know about him or maybe SEGA didn't let them tap him? They referenced Amy's tarot cards for pete's sake so that would be strange. They certainly did a fair deal of homework however about they did it.
19:51 Silly Bioware. You think this is a *competent* corporation? Surely you jest. :P
Damn. Shoulda talked to those Echidnas more. Cool to see that was always what was going on.
@@Pariah6950 Yea it's easy to miss. The themes of SA1 also touch on war being bad in this respect, but also on the idea that the desperate situation of the knuckles clan pushed them to commit said atrocities, so even they for as bad as they were, were victims as well. Part of the series' overall theming is that humanity is not inherently bad because people ultimately just want to live better lives. Which of course ties back into Sonic himself.
-cleaned up my initial post btw-
Rip Chronicles, one of the coolest games with an interesting concept
This is all Ken Penders fault 😡
I feel like Chronicles has a lot of cool ideas that ends up being pretty much wasted. I think Shade is a pretty cool character and the extra lore about the ancient Echidna civilizations and the Gizoids are also something I really appreciate but all this cool stuff is not just attached to a game that isn't really that good at all but also the fact that a lot of this stuff didn't really return afterwards thanks to the gigantic elephant in the room but regardless, I am glad you did this video as this is sort of the aspect of the lore I was very interested in, even if the canonicity is dubious at best.
OMG, imagine that: the Knuckles Clan and the Marauders starting out as enemies, then a descendant from each faction comes together as friends. That would've been perfect.
That’s kinda what happened in Sonic Movie 2 now that I think about it
Good to see i'm not the only one that has this special felling when beating Sonic Advance 3, unlike the others in the trilogy, this one is so much more happier and nicer, thanks to actually being something that all characters share unlike the other ones, since even in Advance 2 true ending, we end with Sonic running to the sunset alone, what is a very cool ending, but doesn't match the charm of a group picture or seeing Gemerl getting their happy ending, by the way, i'm on the team that sees Gemerl as in a similiar situation as Shadow, as in the original 100% died but this one is like a complete new person in the body of the original, in this case a better body even, since they have the power to transform in diferent things, (something that i think they should use in the IDW comics more) but in the end they are a new individual with no memories from Emerl itself for example, so it could be seen as Gemerl is a Emerl from zero or something similiar, since they still has aspects like going bersek when seeing extreme power, in Advance 3 case i believe it was being near the Master Emerald alongside the seven Chaos Emeralds.
Chronicles does explain how Emerl “destroyed” the 4th Great Civilization. It’s when you run into Nestor the old Echidna in the latter half of the game.
Apparently due to how powerful the Gizoids were in battle it led to the Nocturnus conquering everything. Their success led to them being ripped away by Argus.
It’s not a total retcon just a bit of a technicality. Really it’s just an ass pull. But the fact they noticed the contradiction and tried to make an excuse is better than the vast majority of the series.
The thing is with Gemerl he got more of a spotlight in the Comics specifically the IDW comics which is sort of canon from what I heard
IDW is confirmed to take place in the game continuity m
@@1Hol1Tiger I know this was made before it was confirmed
I remember hearing that Sonic Chronicles take place in the future like 2 years after the events of every current Sonic game
I think that was Ian Flynn statement. More like, his guess based on the evidence.
Really appreciating these two in One videos lately lol.
Wouldn’t call Gemerl “mindless” seeing how it always shakes its head when Eggman does something stupid.
Not Bad that Eggman programs his robots to be capable of silent snark.
The fact that developers state that Gemerl was created by Eggman makes it seem like Eggman didn't even care if Emerl died, he made this and put it against us, he's literally the worst for doing this.
The Gizoids are such a under appreciated concept, glad to see lore talk about it.
I highly doubt Gemerl recalls anything Emerl lived through.
If that were the case, given how strict Sega seems to be with IDW, Gemerl would likely just act like Emerl in those comics.
Double uploads? Week to week??? The absolute MADLAD!
This review took me by surprise. Not because of Advance 3, I thought it would be an epilogue of Battle, but because of Chronicles.
Gemerl only appeared in Advance 3, and was completely ignored by the franchise. Only Archie comics brought him back briefly as a copy of Emerl in personality, but then IDW came and turned him into a stoic robot character whose personality is to be Cream's caretaker. When asked on the Bumblekast, I remember Flynn stated he had very little notes regarding Gemerl and even he ain't sure what is he supposed to be. Emerl revived? Emerl reborn? Emerl's "brother"? Gemerl is something of an enigma, but thanks to IDW he caught a lot of more interest.
Regarding Chronicles: I'm shocked. I never thought I would see you talk about it because t's American made, since you tend to focus in the Japanese original. I was wondering if you were ever gonna review Lost World English dub first since it's the original.
I don't blame you, I've been trying to replay Chronicles to help a group but it's just very dull, and while I like elements of the story, it's not exactly great. The characterization of the characters is over the place, which is a shame as I like the Nocturnus Clan.
I've actually been thinking of doing a video on the American and European classic stories. And I do plan to cover the cartoons, comics, movies, etc a little. For games written in English, I will cover them in English, but also talk about the Japanese changes.
@@Pariah6950 Good! Can't wait! I'm especially interested in hearing your thoughts on Sonic X and how it adapted the stories, since that caught my interest!
I've seen the Japanese versions of Colors, Rise of Lyric and Lost World. Rise of Lyric had the most changes as it practically rewrote the characters to be more similar to their original counterparts...which kinda kills the purpose of an Alternate Universe, but who cares, Boom was a mess with too many people putting the hands on it. Makes me wonder if you will skip Boom entirely.
Sonic Chronicles is Canadian made.
@@EWOODJ Western Made then, my bad.
@@tonycorona8501 I will talk about the Boom show a bit. But I don't know about the games. They're not really Sonic games, if you know what I mean. They're really licensed games based on a cartoon that just so happens to be based on a game series.
5:27 - 5:43
Like Metal Sonic.
18:02 - 18:48
Also I doubt they WANT to consider Chronicles non-canon, but it's more that it's in a position of "they HAVE to" because of the legal nightmare a certain someone caused and won't be quiet about or just reopens the wound of that dispute. Plus the game didn't really sell well so it's a double whammy of "this game got the extremely short end of the stick". It's why we haven't really seen ANYTHING relating to the Gizoids or the Nocturnus Clan. Gemerl they can get away with because there isn't anything outright stating if it's Emerl or if he's connected to the Nocturnus Clan.
Alright
2 games one video
2 videos one day
2 of those this week
Let's goooooo
Playing this right after Battle really makes sonic once again fighting (G)emerl even more tragic. Losing him the first time was crushing to everyone and Sonic realizes he has to fight and destroy his son a second time.
really disappointed Chronicles didn't get its own video, the story there is really good, but oh well...
"They assumed Sega got its shit together"
Rookie mistake, we've all been there.
For all its flaws, I really like the Echidna stuff in Chronicles. I wish Sega had picked up the idea again, it's too good to pass up.
Also, I really like the aesthetic of the game. I know the graphics look horrible and completely fucked up, but the artstyle is very reminiscent of the Advance games, it's so "Sonic", and I'm glad they at least got that right considering they referenced the Advance games and Battle.
Talk about a short wait! Thanks for all the hard work you put into these videos!
I'm pretty sure the reason Argus (The Tentacle Like being) sealed away the nocturnus was because of the creation of Emerl. This is actually a valid reason for Ix and his clan being sealed to the Twilight Cage, Considering how powerful Emerl is when absorbing the chaos emeralds It would be easy for ix to take over the world. Eventually while Gerald Robotnik was researching for a way to make shadow, he stumbled upon emerl.
Being sealed away by argus made ix go mad because he was so close to his goal. after the Knuckles clan got wiped out by Perfect chaos the Emeralds were just sitting there after they tried to steal it. Also, there was going to be a sequel to Sonic Chronicles probably with sonic having to fight argus, but for obvious reasons (Ken Penders) that didn't happen.
Probably. But the implication in Battle is that Emerl himself went on a rampage on destroyed the civilization. It works, but is altered from the original intent for him.
I would certainly like to see Argus expanded upon one day. But we all know that's never going to happen.
@@Pariah6950 True. Ix is actually one of my favorite sonic characters because of the potential lore he could have made and how his existence in cannon could develop knuckles further as a character. Truly sad that the story will never be developed further.
Most of the Codex contradictions are in Amy's profile. They call her "Amy Rose the Hedgehog" and say that she formed "Team Amy" with Cream and Big. The profiles for the Knuckles Clan and the Nocturnus Clan say that they battled 4,000 years ago, and that after Perfect Chaos nearly destroyed the Knuckles Clan, the Nocturnus Clan disappreared; the Sonic Adventure: Navigation Guide in Japan, however, says that this took place 3,000 years ago.
Shadow's profile says that Sonic and Shadow teamed up to defeat Eggman and then disappeared when Shadow only fought the Biolizard and teamed up with Super Sonic to fight him as the Final Hazard. Tails's profile itself is fine, but it's titled "Tails the Fox" like that's the entirety of his nickname.
So yeah, not as many goofs/errors as the Encyclo-speed-ia, but still bothersome. That's without getting into the actual game, of course.
Is the Encyclo-speed-ia messed up? I didn't buy it. Weird. I'd expect better from Ian. He knows his stuff.
@@Pariah6950 Yes, a lot of Encyclo-speed-ia is wrong, including basic game stuff.
@@talesxavier5752 Big oof.
7:23
The reason for that has to do with how ST and Sega is structured, while yes ST did work on these hand held games. The specific people working on those games compared to the mainline ones are pretty different, most notably with the directors and writers. Who decide to overarching plot of the games. The change in directors and writers that is common with Sonic Team is likely the reason for this phenomenon as different people likely aren't always aware of what other directors have done in terms of the story and sorta just end up doing their own thing
Even then, Rush was the next game by this same team. Yet no Gemerl despite even going to Cream's house.
I like to think of gemerl as his own character
IDW, while not canon, gives us insight into what Sega's direction for Gemerl is. He doesn't act like Emerl, so Gemerl is supposed to be his own guy, his own character. He is just Emerl's spiritual successor. This doesn't fix the story not being more clear, but it does fix your issue about how reviving Emerl would be bad, since it's not really him. I hypothesize that "Emerl's data" mainly referred to his ability to "learn" and "grow". He calls himself a "learning robot" in IDW, so his combat ability in Advance 3 getting better is him "learning". I don't think he has Emerl's copy, but it's not really clear I guess. Stuff like the missiles or his red shield are original attacks, so I'd place my bets on no.
A bit disappointing that Chronicles doesn't get full proper coverage, but I guess it doesn't matter since it's not really canon. Chronicles was a neat effort but got some lore stuff wrong. I like Shade, and the Nocturnus making the Gizoid(s) is a fun idea. I also think she had potential for future stuff, but we know how that goes. Either way, I think watching a playthrough and covering the story in-depth would've been better than this frankly half-hearted coverage of it.
It wasn't just not wanting to play through the game or watch a 9 hour playthrough (Though that was the largest part of it), but I also don't love the idea of using other people's footage. I'd rather use all my own recordings. So if I'm not going to play the game, I've got nothing to use. Sorry. Like I said, I figured this would be better than nothing. Which is what I did for things like Shuffle because who cares.
It is canon now lol
@bluebellsforever What do you mean?
I would like to point a few things you may be missed as you didn't play the game fully.
Chronicles does actually pay homage to Gerald in Battle theorizing that it was Emerl to have nuked the 4th civilization by having the Character Nestor claim that their banishment to the Twilight cage happened pretty much right after finishing their Ultimate Gizoid which he would later come to know as Emerl so in a way did Emerl still destroy that civilization.
(Also given how Chronicles ends on a cliff hanger it's not unlikely that they did plan to bring Gemerl in for the sequel given that Shade stayed with the Heroes)
Chronicles also has quite a few noticeable continuity hiccups in in its Codex (a in game Sonic encyclopedia)
Also, Chronicles is placed 2 years in the future from pretty much everything else in the franchise as its manual points out.
On the Advance 3 front can't the Cream and Gemerl ending be taken from Sonic X. Advance 3 launched before the first airing of Sonic X Emerl arc in Japan by quite a few months actually. If anything, its X which paired Cream with Emerl because of Advance 3.
And as you pointed out Advance 3's story beats are all super wholesome so what could be more wholesome and the cute bunny redeeming the clone of a friend she lost?
And while Nonaggression is a remix of Emerl's them so was the same theme also in a remixed way used by Battle itself for fights against the E-121 Phi's.
Also, a nice detail Gemerl's stand is Sonic's from Sonic battle.
I didn't realize X was after Advance 3. Shoulda looked up the timeframe. Maybe it is just trying to be wholesome there then. Thanks for sharing all this info.
@@Pariah6950 Yes Sonic X Sonic Battle adaptation (or to be more precise the first episode with Emerl in it) released January 2005 while Advance 3 game out June 2004.
Was wondering when we’d get battle and chronicles!
Love the channel!❤
Great content! I did notice a little goof at 4:50.
I think you meant to say “Restore Emeral’s AI back into Gemeral.”
It's a shame Sonic Chronicles has to be non-canon, because I love so much of its expanded lore and character interactions. I kinda just wish it being canon or non-canon wasn't stated one way or another and were simply left to interpretation, like it could just be a "something that happens after all the games" type of thing. Or you could do what that one fan theory suggested and make it so the beginning of Unleashed is the eventual conclusion to Chronicles' cliffhanger.
Anyways, I feel that way about a lot of Sonic things, actually; I dislike how Ian Flynn outright confirmed the Japanese manuals for the Genesis Sonic games are non-canon now, that bugged me too. I get wanting to streamline the franchise for newcomers to the "lore" (for lack of a better term), but you also run the risk of alienating certain fans in the process.
Did he say that about the Genesis manuals? Then what happened during those games?
Ian Flynn is not the word of God.
@@Pariah6950 The cutscenes in Sonic Origins now replace the original Japanese manuals. This was a Sonic Team decision in order to streamline and clarify continuity (this seems to be something they're pushing lately, as made further evident by TailsTube, possibly because of the success of the Sonic movie-- but that's just speculation on my part).
Check out 48:10 of BumbleKast July 6th, 2022, 5:24 of BumbleKast September 19th, 2022, and 47:33 of BumbleKast August 29th, 2022 (that last one being the most important, since Ian confirms this is a Sonic Team decision and not just something that's coming from him).
@@talesxavier5752 Flynn stated this was a Sonic Team decision (read my previous reply). I see no reason to doubt him on this.
@@LupinticDream Not too surprising. I'd actually be okay with a superhero style history rewrite for Sonic to clean everything up. But it'd have to cover everything up to now.
Haven't watched the video yet but the fact that the video talking about the story of the silly little episodic fighting game is almost an hour longer than the one talking about the story of an actual rpg (which said video is also split with another game's story) is just... so funny and yet so depressing for Chronicles specifically.
I honestly feel like Gemerl should go through a story of being his own robot.
If Sonic Chronicles is ever made canon, he could go through a self search mission and find out more about his Gizoid Past… only to realize that he shouldn’t focus on the family he used to have… but the family he has now. (Aka Cream, Cheese, Vanilla, and Chocola)
This is honestly my take on how Gemerl’s story should be.
Aka its my opinion.
Yeah. Makes sense Chronicles isn't getting a full in depth video because the Encyclo-Speed-Ia has confirmed that Chronicles is non canon
Yep
They removed it as stated in there
If all the sonic games had just 40% better continuity between all the titles it would be so satisfying
Someone’s currently making a fan remake of Sonic Chronicles that actually looks better then the original. They even fixed the dammed music
But the music was perfect
@@themissingbits6375 No it wasn’t they somehow fucked up the big arms theme
@@hattoripool1533 You have no sense of humor. It was a joke
@@themissingbits6375 It’s hard to tell what’s a joke nowadays
Source?
5:55
This would be Shadow 2 instead of the preferred, Gamma and Omega 2. Gemrel is like Omega, being based on another robot, but is their own separate character.
Apparently there was a shadow the hedgehog mod that tries to fix some of the games problems, shadow the hedgehog reloaded, just got in my recommended
the only problem with chronicles really is that it ends on a cliff-hanger of eggman conquering the world which isn't followed up on, quite a few years before forces even which is amusing.
in my headcanon all the nocturnus-gizoid thing is part of the lore, but not the events of the game itself. as far as im concerned, emerl killed every single one of the nocturnus clan instead of them being swallowed to the phantom zone by cthulhu.
Yeah and in terms of headcanons, mine about the cliffhanger is that it leads to Sonic Unleashed. Where Sonic inevitably just destroys everything Eggman’s built and he uses his contingency with Dark Gaia to maintain at least part of his rule in Eggmanland.
@@jasonnguyen1072 oh yeah, i think i've heard that one before...
Forces was a lost opportunity to continue Chronicles' plot.
@@jasonnguyen1072 That doesn't explain what happened to Shade, though.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 Considering the legal issues that was started due to the very existence of Sonic Chronicles? I don’t think we’re ever going to get a follow up of the game.
19:51 this had me rolling XD
How are you doing this. Two videos in one day? Are you the ultimate life form?
People thinking Gemerl = Emerl never sat well with me in general (or in gemerl lol)
Like the whole idea of Gemerl being just a reprogrammed Emerl is just lame and honestly Gemerl in general is kinda lame imo. I know IDW does stuff with him that is cool but even then he’s not even that much interesting stuff going on himself to warrant coming back
I just finished watching the other video lol.
I think that they should remake Chronicles and a bit of it’s story. Like including Gemrel.
I like how you had to cover the story of Sonic Battle before you could loop back around to Advance 3 lol
I doubt Emerl and Gemerl are the same character by the end of Advance 3. I think he just had the data Emerl had. Since Eggman wouldn't want to risk the whole betraying him cos someone showed more power thing.
Bruh I just finished watching the Sonic Battle story video you can’t keep spoiling me like this
6:15 I don’t think thats true. Both Sonic Advance 3 and Sonic Battle’s endings made me cry, they are both potent.
I swear I know that Mighty is in Chronicles.
Gemearl to me is kind of like while they restored his AI they did not restore his link with sonic
So that Emearls memories aren’t a part of Gemearl, making him a separate character as he is a gizoid with all tails could do is bring the regular functions of him back while also removing some negatives
You said you don’t find Battle to be in the same continuity for shadow and other stuff, that would also put both advance 3 and chronicles on this timeline in theory if we were to dismiss battle?
I don’t think that it’s possible for chronicles to be canon though. I read that there are a lot of contradictions in that game to established canon. Granted, there are contradictions in most Sonic games.
By "canon" I mean throw it in the same giant pile of nonsense as everything else. Nothing in it is much worse than what you see in many other Sonic games.
Canon is always gonna get screwed up regardless
Next video I'm guessing is Sonic Rush or Spinball party.
Not doing pinball party. Rush is next.
@@Pariah6950 But Pinball Party is a masterpiece.
The potential that the sonic the hedgehog franchise has for its story, world building and lore is insane, there is so much Sonic team could do but instead we get lacklustre games with stories that a limited by mandates and terrible writers (yes i know Ian Flynn is writing frontiers but with the mandates still up based off what he's said and has had to do in the comics, he's still limited) because Sega and sonic team always take the wrong lessons from issues they create. the cast of sonic 06 controlled poorly? they only make sonic playable for the foreseeable future. Sonic generations did well? well that's clearly because of the reuse of older levels and classic sonic. there's so much more examples i could list. Also I'm sure someone else has brought it up but gemerl is actually heavily featured in the IDW comics but he seems to have lost his copy ability, or at least he hasn't used it from what i can remember. I would love to see the story of sonic chronicles be adapted and rewritten to make the main villain a bit more interesting for the main games. Maybe make it a spin-off that becomes canon to the main timeline (whatever that is anymore)
I always took Gemerl as Emerl coming back, and I kinda agree I dislike that as Emerl’s death was a big emotional moment. But I cannot lie I love Gemerl’s design and it does make me sad that he has joined the cast of the most underutilized characters in the series. Like, there is something to be said about the Sonic games always over using the cast because Sonic’s character is supposed to be running around the world exploring all the time, but they could have used Gemerl ONCE at least after Advance 3.
At least he is in the IDW comic :)
mans on boost mode w the uploads rn 😮💨
I think gemerl is suppose to be a different character from emerl and not just a reason for emerl to come back
15:30
I don’t think that’s what they were going for. Maybe he used the emeralds too much prior to SA1’s backstory and got corrupted with the want for power, kinda like the Sonic 2 manual’s backstory. I just feel like it’s a little weird to think that Chaos was freed before The Nocturnas Clan was sealed, and it would make more sense why Pachacamac acted the way he did back then. It’s not like it can’t work like that, I just feel weird about the inconsistency in Pachacamac’s character.
Also this and Shade is giving me major Archie Dark Legion vibes. No wonder why Ken, the person he is, did what he did.
wait wait wait
is Sonic Advance in the Sonic X timeline?
No, it's not, just the thing is around that time the writers of Sonic X were also messing with games, so stuff has leaked from the show into them, like Amy's personality Sonic Battle and further, or this Cream caring the most about Emerl
@@SwampKryakwa oh alright
Oh a double whammy?
so why won't they ever use shad again ?
I still don’t understand what you mean when you keep saying that reviving someone “undermines” the character.
Maybe I just don’t understand the usage of the terminology?
I googled it and “undermine” seems to be a common synonym for “weaken,” so you’re saying that reviving someone “weakens” their character?
How?
How does reviving Gemerl, Gamma, or Shadow “weaken” their character?
How exactly does reviving them lessen their values, morals, pathos, etc?
I said this before for the StH video, but a character that sacrifices themself, only to be brought back shortly after doesn’t change that person’s character.
The *choice* to die for someone else is what holds significance, not the *act* of dying. (example: Jesus Christ)
So I can’t agree with the above usage…
Or…
Do you actually mean that reviving someone weaken’s the *agency* of death, or the *urgency of the consequences* of death?
Well, I can certainly agree with that.
By undermine the character, I mean that character's function as a storytelling device. Emerl as a character was created to die, for the purpose of conveying the theme that conflict causes suffering and loss. By bringing him back, if that's what's happening, it says that the losses can be undone. Which directly goes against what his character's purpose was supposed to be.
Oh yeah
I really hate Ken penders and it's stans who ruined these stories
Sonic Chronicles not cannon? Bologna. How & when do you think he was able to build Eggmanland then?
Knew it.
That’s interesting that chronicles is the one that crosses the line for you. Considering you went through all the old games even the Game Gear ones. I don’t think the graphics and sound would be huge issues.
Calling it boring is a weird criticism. The the OSU like rhythm mechanics the combat from getting mindless. It adds some difficulty if you try to go for perfect scores. Plus it’s way shorter than most rpgs, at only 15 hours. With most of the filler content being skip able side quest.
You said you’ve given it a shot so I guess you’ve seen what I’m talking about. But I’m really curious why you think it’s unplayably boring.
Like I said, I'm just not an RPG person. I get bored with them very easily. I've bounced off every Mother game, Golden Sun, Fire Emblem, Skies of Arcadia, etc. There are extremely few RPGs I've enjoyed. It's just not my genre.
Chronicles???
Gemerl is in IDW
Which is not cannon
@@themissingbits6375 Somewhat.
@@themissingbits6375it is now
It makes me sad that Chronicles gameplay and...well almost everything else sucked, cause the story is awesome. So many characters returning and things like that. There really needs to be a "reimagined" version of the game, so that it can be fixed where it needs to be (basically redo everything except most of the story)
I enjoy both Shadow the Hedgehog and Final Fantasy 13. I can find fun in both "bad" Sonic games and "bad" RPGs. But a bad Sonic RPG broke me, I couldn't even get 3 hours into Chronicles. If it's story was actually worthy and not just a mediocre narrative sweetened by some nice worldbuilding, I could totally grit my teeth through the repetitive battles and awful compressed-to-shit music.
As for Gemerl, looking up the actual Japanese pronunciation, while Emerl sounds how you think it would based on the English name, eh-meh-ru, Gemerl is actually jii-meh-ru, which is why he's also apparently known as G-merl according to his page on Sonic Retro. And for his lore, IDW did it best I think- Emerl is dead for good, Gemerl is just a super advanced Phi unit made based on Emerl's data when Eggman had Emerl right at the start of Sonic Battle, before Emerl began growing. So in IDW, he speaks and acts more robotically, but still has a heart, like how Gamma was.
I've heard Frontiers will be sort of a "reset" to the series lore, and god I hope that's true. Ian Flynn did a fantastic job with the IDW comics laying out what is canon and what may not be canon, the very first page of the first issue shows stuff from Adventure and Heroes and Unleashed and Forces, it's great. But, with concepts that previously conflicted in the lore, IDW either explains how both concepts are canon, or chooses one over the other. If Frontiers continues from this type of soft reset, maybe with a history section in the menus like the Metal Gear Solid games, explicitly laying out what is and isn't a part of main canonicity, I would be over the moon. Sonic lore has been a mess since his inception, with all the spinoffs and various universes and SEGA's *brilliant* idea to let each market come up with it's own lore so in Japan it's like the manga and Eggman and South Island and in the US it was Archie and Robotnik and Mobius and in the UK it was like Fleetway and Robotnik literally being part egg but not being called Eggman... a reset has been needed for literal decades. Story of Frontiers could still rock my balls off if it just doesn't explain anything from the past like 90% of the other Sonic stories, but god it would be nice to have a concise, clear timeline of games and events.
How are you doing this? It's like the opposite of "post-Popularity Creator burnout."
It's like you just keep getting more adept at pumping out more content, speeding up the process, and...
... accelerating.
Oh my god.
I can see where you're coming from with playing Chronicles dude. But, unfortunately, if you want to actually SEE these characters interacting with each other and having them all be playable, you may have to suck it up and deal.
Yes, as a game, it sucks. Hard. I hate those touch screen controls with all my heart.
However, this was maybe the very last time these characters were written well. It may NEVER go back to being that good again. Something to consider.
note to self: chronicles is not canon
Chronicles is no longer canon because of Ken Penders
Huh? Emerl was in Sonic X?! I'm certain he wasn't. Right?
What the fuck?! He was?!?
Yep
He who must not be named ruined my dreams of a totally feasible and probable cronicals remake that would nake it the best rpg ever and do all the cool ideas i have for a sonic trust me bro. Nah but for real the ken stuff makes me realy sad
For Advance 3 and Cream and Gmerl’s bond, dude I think you’re thinking way too hard about it all. Just take it at face value
P
You should make story videos about the sonic comics, oh wait, i forgot, you don't like them... for some reason...
I will talk about the comics eventually. I have my reasons for disliking them.
@@Pariah6950 yes, i know, ken penders and all that garbage, but fleetway is good and IDW is amazing
@@sandudelcea6707 Never read Fleetway. But I have not liked what I've read of IDW either.
@@Pariah6950 gmerl appears in IDW and fights omega, is that good enough for you ? Also fleetway uses many game canon elements, so you'd probabbly enjoy it.
@@sandudelcea6707 I am not shallow enough to care that "character does thing". My issue is with the writing and the stories.
Gemerl appears in the IDW comics
Tangle (from the IDW comics) is referenced in Sonic Frontiers therefore the IDW comics are canon
That means Gemerl is canon
If Gemerl is canon then Emerl is canon, if Emerl is canon then the gizoids are canon, and since the Nocturnus clan created the gizoids they should be canon as well
I actually heavily disagree with Chronicles's retcons being for the better. In your own words it undermines the central conflict of SA1 by portraying Pachacamac as justified instead of driven by greed, but it also undermines Sonic Battle itself by denying Emerl's original destructive origin, an important piece to indicate how its usage for war is always inevitably going to lead to loss and suffering.
But also... Sonic Chronicles's actual story is just not good. The entire cast are various degrees out OoC, most notably Sonic who acts extremely rude, distrusting, and selfish, but there's also Amy, Rouge, Shadow, Cream, and especially Big and Omega.
And what the story's going for with the Nocturnus conflict undermines Knuckles's character, given his status as guardian was essentially the end-product of generational punishment for greed way back when, and that Knuckles just cannot retire because he's the only one left, he has a duty that directly contrasts with Sonic's freedom. Having Shade appear and join the crew does mean Knuckles is free from his duty.
Plus, Shade isn't a very interesting character, and Ix isn't a very interesting villain, plus the entire crew trust Eggman for no real reason.
Sonic is only a jerk if you make him respond that way to the dialogue choices. The only character I could really consider OoC is Amy, since she's the clingiest there than she's ever been and it's not treated as a joke, so it's really painful to read her lines of dialogue. The other character are fine. You could say Shadow is a bit too overly pent up and agressive towards the group, but apart from him, I don't really see what flaws the other characters have. It's not like Big was anything but stupid, so...
@@quasar4780 "Sonic is only a jerk if you make him respond that way to the dialogue choices"
Sonic being OoC due to dialogue options is STILL Sonic being OoC, and being a jerk is far from the only OoC thing he does, including stuff that happens without giving you a dialogue option (like when he sees Knuckles in breathing distance of Ix and instantly assumes that Knuckles turned traitor).
Rouge is OoC for being a walking, talking sarcasm dispenser, Shadow is OoC for his sheer obsession with revenge and destruction, Cream is treated as someone who the crew don't want tagging along but who really wants to join herself.
Big was never *stupid*, he was simple. SA1 Big was never so dumb that he couldn't figure out that his eyes were fucking closed.
Omega doesn't even act like Omega, when has he ever treated other organic beings with such derision, and when has he ever called them "meatbags". It's like they read his motivation and then made a new character out of that.
Very good points here. Though, while Chronicles does kinda undermine the themes of previous games, Shadow also does that to SA2 but I still absolutely find that to be a great addition to the story. It's unfortunately inevitable with a series like this (especially with how little they care) to ignore the intentions and themes of previous entries. Battle itself ends on a hope that once conflict is over, they'll get to see Emerl again. Which we know will never happen because Eggman's always going to do something bad next game. There is no hope. The conflict will never end. So that's pretty depressing if you think about it. And in the case of Knuckles, they already ignore the duty he's supposed to be bound by. It's all fucked up already.
Since I haven't played the game for myself, I don't know about the characterizations. But I'd certainly believe it. Not that inconsistent characterization is anything new for this series either... God, this series...
@@Pariah6950 Yeah, only in this franchise...
Not consistent enough if you choose the option to make him like that
Wow, you wont review Sonic Chronicles? Lol
First of all, fake fan
Secondly, You should re-name your entire series. Sonic isn’t always good after all.
Chronicles was removed from the canon confirmed by Bumblecast and Encyclospeedia
You know given chronicals has been brought up I do wanna ask given how tied it is to archie, do you think you'll ever talk about the comics? Like in general not archie specifically, be it archie, fleetway, the manga, idw, or so on. Be it like just talking about them as you do the story videos for the games or maybe like a video about their historical contexts in relation to the games as just an off the top of my head example.That and other media of sonic in general like the cartoons too like how much sonic x has had an influence on the game series. Apologies the word pasta btw.
Also personally I never saw gemerl as a revival of emerl. I always sorta saw him more as the omega to gamma. We barely have anything to go off though in game canon and maybe Im just reading too much of his game characterization from supplementary material which itself isnt consistant between works. Generally though in those works he acts very different from how emerl did in game so I get the impression he's practically a different person at that point for all intensive purposes at least in those alternate canons. I do like IDWs take though of this defensive older brother type for cream, its really cute.