Modern Paper Mario is Insulting
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- Опубліковано 6 чер 2024
- I take way too long to talk about why modern Paper Mario rubs me the wrong way and get very tired doing so.
Follow me on Twitter: / doggifu
MUSIC USED:
“Chestnut Valley” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Petalburg” from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
“Opening” from Super Smash Bros.
“Menu” from SNES Classic Edition
“The Sword Descends and The Stars Scatter” from Super Mario RPG
“Battle 2” from Final Fantasy IV
“Fight Against an Armed Boss” from Super Mario RPG
“Hello, Happy Kingdom” from Super Mario RPG
“Goomba Village” from Paper Mario
“Main Title” from Paper Mario
“Rogueport” from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
“Flipside” from Super Paper Mario
“Airship (Super Mario World)” from Super Mario Maker
“Title Theme” from Paper Mario: Sticker Star
“Detective Mario” from Paper Mario: Sticker Star
“Port Prisma” from Paper Mario: Color Splash
“Main Theme” from The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
“One Winged Angel” from Final Fantasy VII
“Title Screen” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Deadbird Studio Reception” from A Hat in Time
“Peach’s Castle (Underground)” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Vellumental Battle” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Missile Maestro” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Monty Mole’s Shop” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Detective Mario” from Paper Mario
“Autumn Mountain” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Paper Macho Soccer” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Event Battle” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Merlee’s Mansion” from Super Paper Mario
“Opening” from Unsolved Mysteries
“Castle Bleck” from Super Paper Mario
“Memory 1” from Super Paper Mario
“House of Tricky Ninjas” from Paper Mario: The Origami King
“Bowser Jr. Battle” from Paper Mario: Sticker Star
“Tokens, Please!” from Super Paper Mario
“FIGHT!” from Bug Fables
“Hooktail’s Castle” from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
“Farewell Rogueport” from Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
“Junk Shop” from Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne
Stock footage provided by Videvo, downloaded from www.videvo.net
CHAPTERS:
0:00 Introduction
1:06 History: The Good Times
10:25 History: The Bad Times
14:40 The Origami King
16:33 Gameplay
25:36 Writing
34:23 Rapidfire Talking Points
37:35 Conclusion - Ігри
I can't wait for Paper Mario: Cardboard Comrade as you suit up and save allies from the Gluelag.
As much as i hate obvious "communism bad" jokes (due to being russian), this pun more than overrides that hatred. Well done, sir, i would rase my Vodka glass, if i wouldn`t be an anti-alcoholic.^^
@@aureliodeprimus8018
This was a joke delivery for the motherland!
:-D
Oh boy the game where you collect cardboard, which the game liters the entire overworld with, and use it in another arena battle system where the goal is to take out cardboard cutout goombas, koopas and shyguys by using cardboard to build giant boots and hammers, which you use to take out the entire hoard of enemies and win. Earning coins and more cardboard. That’s it. And one of the bosses you fight a box. Just a sentient box. But the box has witty things to say, so it’s a great game!
@@ryancomix4643 I would actually play that ngl
ngl, people hate it for whatever reason, but I think the single best thing about modern Paper Mario is how much they went all in with the paper aesthetic. I think it's charming
"If we used the same gameplay system wanted by fans again and again, we wouldn't be able to surprise them"
Kensuke, at this point, nothing would surprise me MORE than you giving me what I want...
Edit: wow, this comment blew up! Thanks for all the upvotes, guys :)
That's always the funniest retort I see tbh, it's in the same vein as "you just want ttyd copy/pasted". Like, nah dude, use ttyd as a base and add onto it just like ttyd did with paper Mario 64. It's not that hard, if something isn't broke, dont fix it
The game shutting off and making the Switch explode would certainly be _VERY_ surprising.
Doesn't mean that would be good in the slightest.
@@rosel2452 Those people act like a ttyd clone wouldn't be a 10/10 masterpiece.
"which is why to really surprise our fans, Mario is now a fps/management game hybrid"
IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT
@@undyingrevenant2734 Nintendo - "what was that? You were saying you want a paper mario farming game? INTRODUCING 'PAPER MARIO F****D FARM'. There'll be lots of """"witty""" writing so that makes it good!! $70 please!!"
The irony of “wanting to innovate” from just being a regular turn-based RPG, but inadvertently making the overall experience play things safe and feel more like bog-standard Mario will never be lost on me
But Paper Mario was sooo safe....
omg it's lanz xenoblade
Not having characterization means they cannot engage in character humor, which bottlenecks comedy into gags. They can have the best gags in the world, but it will always feel like something is missing.
I think the gag type of writing is why I don't buy the "better writing" statements as much - many jokes seem one-shots from characters that are just vessel for these gags but aren't like comedies where their constant situations is why it's funny.
The new Paper Mario games' comedy feels the same as Family Guy, more or less. Mostly unfunny shit that gets stretched to the point of being *paper-thin.*
See, it's easy to write shit jokes
@@zjzr08 yeah its default humour that could fit anywhere and into anything. It's not unique or situational to the games story or characters itself. It's like a general knock knock joke that could be placed anywhere and it'll be funny but not that funny most times because it's not making a clever joke out of something that happened in the game.
Yeah, Super Paper Mario really dropped the ball there.
Nah the gag writing is hilarious in the new Paper Mario. It’s better than the shitty jokes you guys could make.
What's even funnier is that the OTHER niche RPG Mario Spin off, Mario & Luigi, CAN and did create original species AND original characters within the already established ones. Since the beginning all the way to the end, well, Paper Jam is the exception fittingly enough, every entry has had, at least, one new species introduced and explored. The OCs that are based on old races that come to mind for me the most is that trio of a Koopa, a Goomba and a Shy Guy, because their designs and personalities feels very Paper Mario-esque
The reason behind paper jam not having unique races, was due to Alphadream money problems
They didn’t make enough money off of Dream Team, which cost a lot of money to make
So they couldn’t make a lot of unique sprites for Paper Jam
And then we got the remakes, which they do to try and make money
The Mario & Luigi remakes after Paper Jam did restrict original designs, Toads and Koopas were all generic without their differing designs and clothing.
@@LumaMars That's a theory, but some of the sprites like the Koopas in the remakes of SS and BIS were made anew from the ground up to look generic, not reused from PJ.
If Mario and Luigi kept making original entries after Paper Jam, it would've definitely continued being new Super Mario Bros, just with action commands.
The devs of the games literally talked about why it turned out the way it did in interviews
Saying it’s not cause of Miyamoto, or mandates
And that Miyamoto largely only was involved in the development of Superstar saga for the gba, and largely left them alone after
And the sprites are very similar between all the 3ds games (aside from dream team) with very minor details
None large enough to have to remake a whole sprite, and if they did remake the sprite each game, they’re just wasting money, with how minor the changes are
And the remakes didn’t even restrict designs majorly, they still have the original toads, and characters
It’s just the nameless npcs that had their designs taken away, with the generic ones, which once again can just be summarized to time, and money restraints
Also yes the series artstyle did get more bland over the years
Though the devs confirmed in interviews it’s not mandates, they just wanted it to be more detailed and realistic, and therefore generic
Also the koopa, and toad designs being generic once again come with the art style
But there’s still original toads in the remakes, like the ones from the opening cutscene of bis, or the fortune teller in toad town, or the nurse toads, or the toads in the council
Also bis never had original enemies, only ss did in the opening, for the first 5 minutes, which considering how hard it was to make sprites for those games (and them largely being slightly remodeled versions of paper jams sprites) the cost, and time to make the sprites wouldn’t be worth it
Hearing that consequences of Squenix owning Mario RPG line with the remake on the horizon is really funny.
Only after 27 years.
Square has become a lot less strict in recent years, allowing characters like Cloud, Sephiroth, and Sora to be in Smash. Letting Sakurai at the very least make a Mii costume of Geno. And of course, this-
@@darkeneddaylight5422maybe there is a chance for a Xenogears to finally have a remake in the future? I doubt Bandai would ever allow Xenosaga to have a remake because of ‘reasons’
@@darkeneddaylight5422 Disney owns sora.
Squeenix and it's consequences have been a disaster for paper mario
That ending hits hard. Paper Mario fans are slowly realizing that the opposite of love isn’t hate; it’s apathy
Absolutely, I feel nothing anymore for this franchise. And taking a break for many months after the arguments of this game has been a relief for me. I felt and still feel peace. I feel sorry for this franchise but at least I have my indie games
Whats apathy
@@Yeloman7you don't give a fuck but it's the soulless type of not giving a fuck if that makes sense
@@Yeloman7why, Apathy is death of course! in all seriousness (provided you arent joking) its the feeling of not giving a toss.
oh ok ty@@darthgamer9861
I have genuinely never understood how this supposedly makes paper mario more accessible. Like as long as mario is on the cover and there are some familiar elements it doesnt matter. Why would basic grasslands interest a casual player more than a seedy port city? Why would Bob Omb #12 interest them more than a sailor Bob Omb? I just don't get it
That what i've been saying for years. Really don't get why Nintendo needs to play it so safe with the Mario brand, reusing the same level themes and characters over and over again.
Seriously! It’s hurting the series so much!
Thousand Year Door is literally the first Mario game I ever played and it's the only reason I even care about this dogshit company lmao.
One of the reasons even the mainline platform mario games were so successful was for how weird they were. No one is going to play a new mario game and think "wait.... that's not a goomba what is that? something I haven't seen before? this is horrible I hate seeing something new, only the same thing forever please 0/10"
They do allow new sorts of enemies, characters and locations in the new mainline games. But their refusal to ever put in a new main villain in their games makes me think their order on making the Paper Mario games bland might be true. It makes no sense, the creators of what was once an imaginative world has become anti-imagination. Honestly whoever is making that a thing need to go to get their brains checked, no joke - it's not just stupid it's actually a sign of something severely wrong with their brains.
> Why would Bob Omb #12 interest them more than a sailor Bob Omb?
God damn that's such a succint way of putting it. Like, I'm not even a big Paper Mario fan, haven't even played TTyD, only 64 (which I never finished, despite giving it a go multiple times) and Super, but… alright what's more interesting between a goomba and a goomba with a hat? Or goomba girl who's an archeologist. Or one of those Yoshi's Island mice versus one of those Yoshi's Island mice but she's a hooker. Or a turtle and a blue turtle with a bandanna. Or a winged turtle versus a winged turtle who is a postman
It really doesn't take you going off the rails and making stuff like Mallow, Vivian or Tippi to make interesting characters for the Mario universe. Look how much Kirby fans adore a Waddle Dee who happens to have a bandanna-turns out that a regular mook with a sense of fashion to make it distinguishable from all the other mooks has a lot of appeal and goes a long way in making something unique out of the mundane
You can have bosses INSPIRED by school/office supplies, but when the bosses ARE literal school supplies- I was like "bruh"
Yes give em some perspnality
I like how they're a style clash, as dull as it makes their designs. Makes them easier to hate, more satisfying to kill.
I would have loved it if the Legion of Stationary were like the Smithy Gang: weird mechanical/origami guys with office supplies incorporated into their designs. For example, we had Mack who was a weird Shy Guy-looking thing riding on a giant knife with eyes. I could totally see Colored Pencils working as a tiny little robot/alien guy riding a big Metal Gear-looking mech that fires colored pencils like missiles, while the missile launchers themselves look like pencil cases.
@@Bunny5-0-1I could totally get behind that! I loved the Smithy Gangs whole weapon motif
@@turtleanton6539they weirdly enough shve a lot of it
I found this video thanks to a tweet hating and minimizing it as "whinny classic paper Mario supremacist whining without an actual argument" while stating they didn't watch a single second of it lol 🙃. I'm thankful tho, I found a cool new channel to sub to 👌🏻
That's extremely funny lmaoooo
Business as usual on the funny bird app.
That's why I'm here too. Absolutely infuriating to me how so many people have that view point, with what they're saying being debunked at some point in this Paper Mario critique videos. It's always the "Paper Mario boomers just want a Thousand Year Door Rip off," but I'll be frank, every one of these videos I've watched clarify that no, they don't even have to use the old style. But if they want to do something new, then why the hell are they seemingly half-sticking to the old format and just doing everything about it worse?
Don’t you love it when people shat on people for having an opinion without actually hearing them out.😅
The fact those people use Twitter should make them feel ashamed of themselves. Imagine unironcally being a smelly twitter/reddit user.
The modern paper marios sell well thanks to marketing and the mario brand being so strong. Even the terrible live service sports games still do well and sell millions. The main games and movie and just so high quality that the brand is strong enough to get away with pure shit like origami king and mario striker battle league.
Paper Mario falling off so badly that the long dead SMRPG had to return from the grave to teach them how to make a rpg
I would not put it past them being honestly confused with what people liked about SMRPG. I can't wait to see whether people are gonna tear apart the remake or whether any updates they make will be appreciated
@@pointillism252 You probably haven’t even played it
@@pointillism252If it's so shite then how come it gave Nintendo enough confidence to let it spawn two successful subseries lol
Contrarian drone
@@kirbyofthestarsfan Thousand-Year Door is back!!!!!!
Paper mario ttyd remake broskis
Sucks what happened to alphadream, would have been cool to have a mario & luigi rpg with the subtitle double date had peach and daisy along for the ride
Genius.
Man I wish they would explore the relationships of Mario and peach and Luigi and daisy. They don't even have to be lovers I just want to see them experience the mushroom kingdom together and have something to say about it
Intelligent Systems: We don't want to make Thousand Year Door twice as that would be too repetitive
Also Intelligent Systems: **makes the most hated Nintendo game three times in a row without batting an eye**
Edit: well I guess they don't mean it anymore because they're remaking Thousand Year Door for Switch as of today lol
And then on the other side of nintendo, the team behind New Super Mario Bros. is making the same game for the 5th time
But at least NSMB is consistently a good game. Even if it’s just the same thing over and over.
rip new super Mario bros series (2006-2023) you were good but bland. Anyways WOOOOOOO SUPER MARIO BROS WONDER LOOKS REALLY GOOD AND CREATIVE YAY!!!!!
@@ahmedhasan4966 I really hope we don't get a NEW series game ever again.
@@victorford5047 agreed.
to me, origami king feels like the series accidentally backed itself into a corner in many different ways
the fact that the main plot beat in the game is a mean-spirited jab at the older fans just sort of solidified that feeling to me.
like, it's stuff that should stay on internet forums and NOT be the most important plot point in your big budget AAA nintendo game
BACKUP JOKE: tfw the fucking sports spinoffs have more rpg mechanics than modern paper mario
Just look at the mainline Inazuma Eleven games.
Can't wait for Paper Mario Tennis to bring back Badges and Star Points!
Well they are made by Camelot Inc. Which is technically known for many fun RPG titles in the past. Not that surprising really.
Didn’t Super Paper Mario also do the “throwing jabs at the fanbase” thing much better too, with the “I go on the internet and complain about games I’ve never played” line?
@@jomaq9233 note how francis' internet ramblings weren't the driving force behind the central antagonist in super paper mario
The best way to counter the nostalgia point is to just turn it around and say "you must just have recency bias for the new games," showing how dumb of an argument point it really is.
Could you technically make the same argument for the perceived toxicity of the Sonic fanbase, or even Intelligent Systems’ own Fire Emblem series?
Nostalgia seems to be a bigger thing than recency bias though. I will admit the argument is dumb but nostalgia for a lot of people overpasses recency bias.
Point remains that some people are too overconfident on relying on bringing up people wanting nostalgia as an excuse to deter anyone with dissenting opinions, because some companies made games with too much emphasis on it back the like Sonic 4 and other games that went back to some degree and how they did it, they didn't find much success. Things have gotten mixed up and the arrogance about it doesn't help things either.
Recency bias seems to be a bigger thing than nostalgia though. I will admit the argument is dumb but recency bias for a lot of people overpasses nostalgia.
(Edit: Just to clarify, I'm just teasing😂
I wanted to show that when the roles are flipped, it's still the same exact argument with the same flaws. The crux of the nostalgia argument boils down to "I don't feel the same way subjectively as you do, so therefore you must have some sort of bias that's preventing you from seeing things the way that I do. Oh, I heard nostalgia is a thing that exists, and your game is old, why don't I just blame it on that?"
"Recency Bias" is really witty commentary on that - the exact same argument, equally as valid/invalid, just with newer games instead of older. The only reason the argument feels different is because the finger of blame for who carries the "bias" is now pointing in the opposite direction. Even though, in reality, the disagreement about "what is fun?" isn't even caused by bias, it's caused by the subjective nature of the question. Ironic, isn't it?)
@@scrapbotcommander from what I see I guess it just really depends on what elements of the argument there is. But I totally get what you mean.
Thank you for addressing the whole leaning too hard into the paper thing. The series was never supposed to be literal paper beings in a paper world winking at the camera every five seconds to remind you they are made of paper. Even if there are fans nowadays that have been gaslit by Nintendo into thinking that has always been the case. Hell, in TTYD, the paper gimmicks were presented as "curses" that were unnatural to the world which was funny because it fit with the style of the game while giving you a helpful ability that acted like it was a burden. That, to me, is a lot more clever than a group of Goombas making three literal references to being paper within two text boxes.
I also *tried* to like The Origami King. I really did. I even got pretty far, right up to where Kamek joins you. But I just couldn't with that drag of a battle system that would cause me to groan every time a new wave of enemies would come in. I wish Paper Mario would just stop with it's identity crisis and do away with anything resembling the RPGs whatsoever and go for a point and click adventure style game because I feel that would benefit it way more.
But I've kind of just accepted that Paper Mario is never going back to the way it was at this point. I think the most we can hope for is maybe HD remasters of the first three games and even that seems unlikely. However, with Super Mario RPG coming back (which I still can't believe) maybe it can get the proper sequel it never got and we can have a real Mario RPG franchise again. If that's the case, Paper Mario can go on and make Paper Mario: Stamp Collector where a literal tear opens a portal to a stamp dimension or something.
Super Mario RPG2 would be dope. If that happens then I don't care about paper mario being so bad anymore. Tanabe can continue running the series into the ground, and mario rpg fans can get new, much more original and creative games.
I completely agree with you here. I think the biggest reason why the battle system is so bad is that there isn't any incentive to do the battles. The battles don't have to give experience, but they do need to have a reward that is able to function in a way that progresses growth of a character as you play. Speaking of RPGs it also needs actual unique characters to strategize with, a huge flaw of the series these days is the assumption that 1 character makes it eligible to be an RGP. (You need 3 at the minimum : around 6-8 at the maximum).
(Note: I'm aware there are some games that have less characters than 3, like Undertale, that are great. Those games usually have some twist concept or are MMO RPGs which have different templates to follow than a traditional RPG).
Another huge error within Paper Mario of late is that the world the game takes place in doesn't have a culture of its own. The reason this keeps happening is because they push the idea of paper too far to the point that the paper characters in the world are aware that they are paper.
Realistically, if the entire world that we live in was just made of clay and we were born always being just clay we wouldn't know that we were clay. The reason we wouldn't know is because to our knowledge being made of clay would be how things had always been, so there would be no one different to tell us otherwise. This is the exact same thing with paper mario.
Since everyone is made of paper no one in the world should have any knowledge of beings not being paper.
Origami is a flawed concept due to this because you need a 3D perspective to make origami which the world of origami king should not have. If something requires the world of the videogame designer's perspective to be true within a videogame world then commonly knowing that information is a flaw.
Breakers of this rule: Origami King, Color Splash, Sticker Star. (The first 4 games do not break this rule, the last one to follow this being Super Paper Mario)
"The series was never supposed to be literal paper beings in a paper world winking at the camera every five seconds to remind you they are made of paper"
I mean... The art style, even in the earliest games, shows it was meant to be a paper sort of game at least...
@@cantin8697 Doesn't make it any less obnoxious that they constantly lean into it though. A few subtle jokes are fine,but the nonstop over the top jokes about paper aren't. Not to mention,the Japanese name for the series is Mario Story,so I can safely assume that the paper aspect wasn't meant to be at the forefront.
@@cantin8697 That was simply the art style/aesthetic. The older games even make reference to previous Mario titles as if they were events that occurred (as well as upcoming, with Paper Mario 1 having a reference to lead into Luigi's Mansion). There was no reason to assume the games took place in some alternate paper dimension and not in the Mario one we already knew, the paper style was simply the look it went for. You don't watch a film done in stop motion and assume it takes place in a world of living puppets/clay. A video game example would be Kirby and the Rainbow Curse. That game clearly has a claymation style to it and plays with that style quite charmingly but at no point are we led to believe it's taking place in some alternate clay world separate from the rest of the Kirby titles.
Now that we have the Mario RPG remake on the way, Tanabe is backed into a corner.
I love that they announced it on a Direct that *had Tanabe as the co-host* and also showed that Nintendo is learning from its mistakes in sanitizing the Mario brand. It's like Tanabe is admitting that *he* is one of those mistakes.
@@Rot8erConeX I'll believe it when I see it. Actually listen to the criticisms and give people what they want; exp back, original characters, story, setting, etc....all back.
It feels like he's become the Tetsuya Nomura of Nintendo.
@iamlonely5276 yeah except actually harmful
@@captainmega6310 I mean, looking at games like Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep, Dream Drop Distance, and Kingdom Hearts 3, it's blatantly Nomura needs to leave.
After playing Bug Fables it's a good example of what I'd like to see in a new Paper Mario game.
Honestly at this point I'd be more excited for a Bug Fables sequel than I would for an actually authentic new Paper Mario game. Bug Fables really delivers on the Paper Mario experience. I loved every minute of it.
@@platyhelminthes2877 What turns me off is that it's limited to bugs instead of making their own unique creatures. and are they actually as small as real bugs? so that even an average human is like a colossal threat? Makes things pretty lame if that's true.
Same. Bug Fables 2 would legitimately be hype. Far more exciting than 'Paper Mario Sticker Stupidity 4'
@@Vaquix000I mean it’s a bug story, and yes they are that small, even so they are very well characterized
@@Vaquix000 Buddy, I think you've actually never seen bug fables.
Spoilers:
Yes, they are that small. Yes, the average human would be a colossal threat. But their not, because they're gone. The final boss legit happens in a kitchen table, and the diversity of bugs and the originality of the characters makes it so they don't NEED to event new species, and unless you've played the game you'd know they DO have unique species, in the form of some enemies and bosses.
I like how you touched on the paper referencing. Because naturally a paper world with paper characters really wouldn't constantly talk about how the whole world is paper, they would realistically just accept the world as it is just like we accept our world as it is for the most part.
The Thousand Year Door really nailed that part, especially when it came to Mario's paper abilities, which were actually "curses" which was a lot more fun.
Dang, this is such a nice 3-dimensional day in our 3-dimensional world? I just got off of my 3-dimensional job, man, my 3-dimensional coworkers are so annoying. Now I’m gonna lie down 3-dimensionally in my 3-dimensional bed and have 3-dimensional dreams about 3-dimensional things and tomorrow I’ll get out of my 3-dimensional bed 3-dimensionally and go to 3-dimensional church next 3-Dimensionalsday. How is your 3-dimensional day going, fellow 3-dimensional UA-cam3D user?
I always saw the curses in TTYD as basically opening Mario’s mind. Allowing him to do things no one would normally do.
Isn't that more or less disliking TTYD's and even moreso SPM's use of 4th wall humour? It's essentially the same thing.
@@Lukandonits not the same thing. 4th wall breaks are a writing tool like any other, used in moderation they are great, used in every other line is poison.
Think of it like salt and spices when cooking. You will notice the difference between complete absence, just a "dash", and the lid falling off dumping half a shaker of salt into your soup.
@@jasonreed7522 But isn't the modern PM games use of paper jokes kind of breaking the 4th wall? They're both forms of being self aware - they know they're fiction.
It always strikes me that including Peach as a significant story element beyond "kidnapped" seems to make or break the rpgs. Like obviously it's a correlation and not a causation, but I think it speaks to design and characterization principles.
Also, crazy thing about Super Paper Mario... it had NO PAPER IN IT!
It did, but it's definitely the most understated. The "flipping" could kind of count, there was also a partner like one of the paper-y curses in TTYD (you get them in 2-2 if i remember correctly). It's actually the one that looks the most like a computer program, so basically the furthest opposite from the current direction.
@@somethingAccurate Almost everything in SPM has a much more computery aesthetic than usual. The cursors, characters, pixls, even the stages had a lot of odd computer gimmicks.
@@Fungo4 Have you not seen the title for the game? It’s literally made of cardboard.
@@MySnugglePuppy Uh, no it isn't? We're talking about Super here.
@@Fungo4Woops, I meant logo. It is made of cardboard though, look it up.
Until Paper Mario can have character design that matches Admiral Bobbery, I want no part of it.
Turning every race into a cloned army was so depressing.
We will be getting a character design that looks so much like Admiral Bobbery because it is Admiral Bobbery, so it looks like you’re back on the PM train, too.
@@MySnugglePuppy Yeah pretty much. Once I came down from realizing that the trailer was actually real I laughed a little thinking about this comment I made XD
Why Bobbery specifically?
fellas, we got a remake
I’m so glad he was straightforward at the beginning, giving his honest opinion on the game. It feels like whenever people discuss the new paper Mario games, they’re afraid of hurting Nintendo’s feelings lol
I wonder how that would compare to, say, the reception to Sonic games in the fanbase
what kind of videos do you watch? O.o
you clearly have not been on the internet much then
@@prosylan6368
And you must be on it too much 👺
@@jackatk no you don't really need to be on it too much really just search up a modern paper mario video or even a video on origami king
28:14 That is the biggest problem I have with the newer Paper Mario games.
When I played Paper Mario 64 and TTYD as a kid, my imagination was sparked every time. I'd get home from school and read the strategy guides, staring at the different partners and imagining all sorts of cool battles and abilities I was gonna see when I met them in the game. It made me excited to reach each new place and discover new interesting looking Mario characters that I could imagine being my partner in a future title!
Sadly, they removed all of those wonderful things and Modern Paper Mario has always felt like nothing more than a hollow shell of its former self.
TTYD created all these new, interesting characters (not you, Flurrie) that I wanted to see appear in other Mario titles. But they just threw them all away and will never touch the likes of Goombella, Vivian, Rawk Hawk, etc ever again.
@@jonahdewitt2158 you know there releasing a remaster on switch right?
I honestly remember doing something similar myself, I think I even drew up a bunch of ideas for new forms for Jr. Troopa.
This is pretty much everything I wanted to say about the new Paper Mario games, ESPECIALLY the focus on paper aesthetic. Origami King just straight up doesn't feel like it takes place in the same universe as the original games. Those races and original characters are all poof, gone, only to be relegated to small references in collectible cards. There's no proper life in the games anymore, which is absolutely awful for an action adventure or an RPG.
After reading your comment, I just envisioned an animation in my head of Goombella saying "Mario, I don't feel so good" and fading away, while Mario is reaching out, then after she disappears, his memory is wiped and he doesn't remember anyone from 64 or TTYD and what he was just doing.
Nah. There’s a lot of life in the new games. Just as much as other Mario RPG games.
Paper Mario aside, Bug Fables is a good game in its own right. It shouldn't be used as an excuse though... if you need to play a different game to get your Paper Mario RPG feel then Nintendo isn't doing something right.
That's because indie company's can only due what is capable. Triple A companies can sometime go too far with ambition, to the point of hurting gameplay.
I seriously loved Bug Fables! I think they did a fantastic job considering it’s an indie game and they really hit the three points talked about in this video: Story, Characterization, and World Building. They also did enough unique things so that they weren’t simply a clone of old school Paper Mario, so they could be a spiritual successor but still have its own identity
Bug Fables fucking ROCKS dude!
i agree with you i boycotted origomi king for bug fables because at least it still has what made me fall in love with paper mario aka the awesome rpg mechanics and battle system it’s a shame that i have to play a completely different series to get the style of paper mario game that i loved back 😢
@@Kurumithespiritnightmare Nintendo only cares about making games that take advantage of advancing hardware. In the game cube era you couldn’t afford to put in gimmicks due to some hardware limitation. Nowadays, there are no limitations and a Nintendo wants to take advantage of it by any means necessary.
It works in Splatoon because the game was made with modern hardware in mind, not show much with paper, Mario.
That’s why indie games are so great. They focus on making games, not taking advantage of powerful hardware.
GUESS WHO’S BACK
BACK AGAIN
TTYD IS BACK
It's ironic how modern Paper Mario despises its roots, considering how influencial Mario RPG and Paper Mario is to the brand in general. The games established and iterated a lot of general traits that the entire Mario series retains to this day. The RPGs basically created modern Bowser's whole personality.
And while they weren't the first pieces of Mario media to show Mario within a world among a plot, it was the first video games to do so. Which is a huge deal, because it canonized the whole concept of cohesive characters, settings, and characters within Mario's official franchise. It was accepted, canonized events and places and characters.
Whoever decided Paper Mario should dial back on depth seem to think it never really mattered that much, and don't seem to realize how much it directly and indirectly influenced the evolution of the whole brand and how it is percieved even by those who never played any of the RPGs.
The biggest issue with Origami King is that, even if you like it, what's the chance that they will keep that format going forward? In six games, the Paper Mario series has gone through four different gameplay styles. Intelligent Systems has not provided any reasons for fans to trust them on this series.
Well, on the bright side, it'll be a unique battle system that's exclusive to that game alone.
The only problem is that the next game will abandon this system its instead of improving on it and fleshing it out to be better, like the battle system transition from Paper Mario to TTYD was.
Not really- Paper Mario 64 and TTYD are pretty similar with their format, and the same can be said for Sticker Star and Color Splash. But you are definitely right on Super and Origami King shaking things up.
@@nekonomicon2983 The reason could be the hardware. With the gamecube, the technology could improve of what was done. Now a days the hardware can do so much more like add really gimmicky ideas. Miyamoto focus's way too much of taking advantage of the capabilities of the hardware first, then make a game.
For example F-zero was made to take advantage of Mode 7. Luigi's Mansion was made to take advantage of the Gamecube's impressive lighting. Starfox Zero was only made to take advantage of the gamepad. However now a days it's much harder to maintain a balance hardware advancements and core gameplay.
Just cause you can, doesn't mean you should.
@@orangeslash1667 this argument makes no sense. I can already think of plenty of ideas that they could do for a proper Paper Mario sequel that takes advantage of new hardware:
A bigger world that's more detailed, more everything.
Special mechanics and attacks involving Gyro and motion controls
Hd rumble during mario and enemy movements that helps players time attacks and blocking, which in turn would allow them to add more creative enemies, attacks and moves as they don't have to be limited by the players ability to react as much.
More Voice acting (Personally, I'd only like this if they did it well, but they can do it now due to storage space increases)
Online: they could make a co-op campaign with luigi; if they were ambitious enough they could totally do a full second campaign for this separate from the single player one because of the lack of serious storage space limitations.
Also "Miyamoto focus's way too much of taking advantage of the capabilities of the hardware first, then make a game" sounds like pure speculation. I don't doubt he optimizes his games to take the best advantage of it's native hardware, like, uh- all devs do; but that doesn't mean it's his design philosophy. Like new super for example wasn't made to flex hardware, it was made to be the first new 2d mario game for console since super mario world. They could've done it just as well on Gamecube. It'd be far less speculative to say he just wants to help produce games that best serve the audience he's trying to make them for, for the hardware of that time. Because you know that's basically his job.
@@uponeric36 Bug Fable shows what Paper Mario could have been. It captures the Paper Mario look and there are no gimmicks. Why because Moonsprout Games is an indie company, meaning that even if they wanted to use gimmicks they can't.
Also it's confirmed that the motion controls of Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword and Starfox Zero was completely Miyamoto's idea ua-cam.com/video/YwshYBmHlN0/v-deo.html.
I'm glad someone else feels this way about Origami King and isn't afraid to say it. I liked Origami King. In its own right, it was a fine experience, besides the tedious puzzle battles I just got sick of by the end. But there were indeed a few shining moments and memorable set pieces! But everything you said in this video just.. rings absolutely true to me. It's a joke that Paper Mario is like this, an absolute joke, and now with Super Mario Bros Wonder and the Super Mario RPG remake there's NO excuse. I hope its a sign of things to come.
But. You know what REALLY gets me..? Even if the devs really truly were limited to only using existing Mario characters.. there are so, so, so many interesting characters and enemies from Mario's past, even from past mainline 2D and 3D platformers, that could have been used to tell and interesting story or make an interesting world. The Sprixie princesses, Isle Delfino and all its inhabitants, bosses, and enemies, Rosalina, Daisy, Sarsasaland and everything that comes with THAT.. even the NSMB series introduced some new enemies here and there you could give a chance to shine. But no! They went the most dreadfully creatively bankrupt route and stuck to TOADS and the most milk toast mario series enemies.
You know what's worse? This might just be a rumor but- I heard that they AREN'T limited to the standard Mario cast, they just refuse to make new characters.
@@darkeneddaylight5422 I really wouldn't be surprised. Mario Odyssey got away with making tons of new, original characters and locations. And guess what? Now even Super Mario Bros. Wonder is. A 2D MAINLINE GAME! The very same series that NSMB spawned from and subjugated the mario franchise to all this nonsense. There's literally a new Toad-like NPC race and that little caterpillar wiggler companion with the unique outfit and everything- you're telling me 2D Mario can do THAT but the series that was originally conceptualized as an RPG cant?? I don't have faith in Tanabe's word and I think the guy just totally missed the point of Paper Mario and is being a stubborn hack about it.
I hate to be so harsh towards him but this is the third game in a row and now, Mario RPG is coming back, and 2D Mario is giving me more creative satisfaction than the series conceptualized as MARIO STORY! These are ridiculous times for the franchise.
@@orbic521 Yeah, and don't even get me started on AlphaDream going bankrupt. Because you know what that means, no AlphaDream means no Mario & Luigi. Which means no Mario RPG series. MAYBE Nintendo will do something about it, but the fact they announced a remake of Legend Of The Seven Stars makes me worried that.. it might be the last RPG we're gonna get from Mario.
@@darkeneddaylight5422 Miyamoto suggested not having new stuff, but he only suggested it, and because the Studio has him in such a high esteem, they took that statement and followed it to death.
They are allowed to make original characters. Dream Team came out after Miyamoto said that suggestion, and that game literally introduces a new species and it’s lore.
Funny since Miyamoto also told them that Sticker Star was “boring”.
@Gabi-dd7bq Trust me, I know. And I'm not saying Miyamoto is fully to blame for this, but if he didn't say that and just kept quiet then maybe none of this would've happened to Paper Mario.
I'm with you, I can't stand for the "canonization" of the arts& crafts crap. When Nintendo decided that visual themes should be taken literally and just destroy the illusion of any sort of cohesive world. They started doing the same crap with the Yoshi games, too.
What's weird to me is that there's a series that also does this: Kirby. On multiple occasions Kirby and his world have been reduced to some various form of arts and crafts, such as yarn or paintings. But in those games there's usually an explanation as to why the art style looks the way it does. It's taken literally too but it's not at the _expense_ of the world the series exists in.
The original Japanese name was Mario Story and when you look at the first 3 games, you realize the paper elements of the first two (arguably even the third) are more akin to either storybook effects, pop-up book effects, or displays. They focus more on storybook themes than paper themes with very few paper physics. Even the paper abilities from TTYD are explicitly rare and unnatural curses distorting Mario's body (although meant to help him and there's a member's game for one for laughs). The new change also makes physics far less consistent, appearing and vanishing for the current gag.
Also agree about Kirby either making the more important unique games have a reason that often extends all the way to the control mechanics working the way they do, or the earlier spin-offs having it justified as more of a side activity in Dream Land. I'd argue Sticker Star onward should've been a spinoff or more likely reboot from the start so the RPG fans wouldn't be suckered in and disappointed.
@@meloelebi1996 "They focus more on storybook themes than paper themes with very few paper physics."
Yeah, exactly. To the point where both the original and TTYD open with an actual book. And sometimes there are little page-turns to represent something materializing into the world, indeed very much like a pop-up book. And yeah the curses are _meant_ to be curses, even though they're helpful. Still they _play_ with the paper/page aesthetic, but they don't shatter the world in doing so (again, much like Kirby). You can still accept that it's just regular Mario in his normal world.
The arts and crafts Yoshi games are great and I always believed those and the Paper Mario games were completely separate from the other games so I never really had a problem with cohesion being destroyed.
That sounds like a “I like to crap on new stuff because it’s different problem. ” Maybe just get over it?
There is a canonical explanation for Yoshi's Wooly & Crafted world, the producer said: "There in the same universe, infact It's the same place." It's just that, In Mario. Several elements can effect everything. the difference between Crafted & Wooly World is that It's only used too make the game look good, which it does succeed in doing.
What so many people fail to realize is simply that "a step in the right direction" might not be enough to be good enough to be good. Like being in front of an oncoming train. That sidestep might help you if you were already only on the edge of the tracks, but if you're stuck in the center you better hope thats a BIG step.
okay but that's a completly different situation that's something that can have serious long term consequences this is just a video game series it's not as serious as the example you gave
@@prosylan6368 This should NEVER be the standard for business. I don't care if its a game or a bridge. Both are downright stupid.
@@sutoriimmortal2177 okay you're right it shouldn't be a standard but at least they're kinda changing it I don't care if it's not fully right it's better then nothing
I'm actually curious as to how Tanabe got his position with this lackluster attitude of his.
Tanabe has been with Nintendo as early as the Super Mario Bros 2 days (and I think was a big contributor there hence why there's a lot of Shy Guys and Birdo appearances in the recent Paper Mario games) so he probably has big favor from Nintendo and seems heavy handed towards I.S..
@@zjzr08 Ah, thank you.
Let’s hope the thousand year door remake sells well and pray Nintendo wake up and goes back to the original formula
Given it got sold out of pre-orders alone, I'd say it did.
My only problem is when you complimented Super Mario Party. That game is honestly Atrocious
I think everyone who likes the older Paper Mario games needs to buy the Super Mario RPG remake, send Nintendo a clear message, also tell a friend too. If this does well we could get good Super Mario RPGs again
I've moved in from Nintendo though, don't even have a switch now, have it up after trying to enjoy BOTW
We don’t NEED the chucklefucks at nintendo to make a good Paper Mario anymore.
We have *Bug Fables the Everlasting Sapling* now.
@@MrSpartan993 I'd still take classic Paper Mario, nice to have a massive studio to produce a game of that style but at a much larger scale. Thousand Year Door I think is the best of that type of game, I want more. Also, the Mario & Luigi series is also good, scratches a different type of RPG itch
@@reeseseater12 well yeah, the optimal outcome would be for ALL these series to continue and actually be GOOD. But Nintendo is a giant company that has been very anti-consumer and player for many years now and they’ve demonstrated they don’t really give a shit all those RPG’s. So I’ll gladly take something FRESH that is at least as good as the original Paper Mario. Bug Fables in this case.
@@MrSpartan993 yeah, and I’m saying the consumers should speak with their wallets, let them know this is what we want
Here's the thing about the mandates-- they're 100% real..... but they've almost always been real.
You listen to interviews by the Mario + Rabbids team and AlphaDream, and you find out there was stuff that they weren't able to do... So they changed the idea a bit and came back, and then they were approved. The mandates aren't this extremely strict bunch of guidelines that prevent you from doing anything creative or interesting. They're in place for a loose sense of brand consistency to make sure things don't get too out of hand. And after Super Paper Mario had barely anything to do with _actual_ Mario, it makes sense when Miyamoto asked Tanabe to dial things back for Sticker Star.
But of course the dev team took it way too far. I definitely don't think it's really a conspiracy to say that we can basically blame the dev team for all this weirdness. Especially when freaking Camelot is able to make brand new boss characters and stuff for their freaking SPORTS GAMES when the Paper Mario team apparently can't.
--------
Outside of the characters and stuff, there really seems to be something wrong with the PM dev team's mindset.
I'd honestly say that paper gimmicks are not even part of the problem-- but that the execution of the paper gimmicks _makes_ them bad. We're looking at a version of Mario's world that is literally identical to the normal world, aside from the fact it's made of paper. So it makes perfect sense to utilize that. The whole reason TTYD added curses in the first place was to utilize the unique artstyle.
If there's no paper element, what's the point of making a Paper Mario game instead of... a brand new Mario RPG?
Origami King 100% feels like a plotline that could happen in the real world. A guy folds sentient origami that goes rogue and uses magic to turn people flat & into origami (kinda like the TTYD curses). The sentient Origami uses his magic to turn origami tools into sentient creatures as well, which take over several lands of the kingdom and terrorize the locals-- punching holes in their faces and literally cutting them into pieces. It's something that can work in the real Mario world, but would obviously feel very dark. _THIS_ is a perfect way to go about it.
Stuff like the Paper Macho soldiers, 1000 fold arms, and confetti wouldn't work in the real world very well, but the plot? Absolutely it could. And it helps justify the PM series. We know that all the mainline and spin-off games still happen in the paper world, as they're referenced quite a bit. So why not show us the adventures that Mario has that end up being enhanced by seeing the Paper World versions of the events? Origami King definitely didn't execute it the best, but it at least showed that you can create a paper story that works. If only the writing would get better to match. I think them being self-aware post Paper Jam makes sense thematically. But it definitely _is_ a bit much sometimes. I think Origami King did better than Color Splash and Sticker Star at least, in that regard.
----------
Anyway, I loved Origami King, and I definitely do think it's a significant step in the right direction--- but with the mindset of the PM team, it's a baby step. And until they change their mindset, we're gonna continue to get baby steps.
Really my main hope for the series right now is that they'll remake PM64 and/or TTYD, and that will show the team what was so good about the originals. I think if they really tried, we could end up with a game that's even better than the classics. The newly announced Super Mario RPG showed yet another piece of evidence--- a MASSIVE one--- that the "mandates" aren't what they seem to be. And hopefully all these creative stuff inspires the PM Team to actually try for once.
I 100% agree with your first paragraph. As for the rest though, the problem with Origami King is that it shouldn't have been a baby step in the right direction, it should have been the whole running course in the right direction, especially because they got it right the first time, they improved on the second, they deviated a bit but still managed to get it right on the third try, but on the 4th try onwards they purposefully broke their own legs and threw themselves off a cliff expecting players to like the end result for no viable reason.
Sure, Origami King is an improvement over the last few installments, but they have to climb up the cliff with their broken bones nonetheless, and a small baby step is virtually nothing.
Why start from where Color Splash left off instead of starting off from where TTYD left off? If you can start the race, not with a broken leg from the base of the cliff, but from the point where you were at your best during the race ahead of everyone, why would you choose the former? Why refuse to give Paper Mario fans what they want, instead focusing on taking baby steps toward progress one at a time?
@@TwilightWolf032 No, I agree. Being a baby step is not a good thing. A step in the right direction is positive nonetheless, but the point was that we're not in a very good spot rn. Because if we keep getting baby steps, it'll be forever before we're back to a gold spot.
That's why I want remakes of PM64 and/or TTYD. Cause that might bypass those baby steps and mean the next game will go back to the classics.
Fun facts: its "Paper Mario Team Has "Almost Complete" Creative Control Over Franchise"
Found out about tanabe was lying for reason and the new peach game has new enemies and characters?
You got Paper Mario lore wrong again. The fact there's a painting of 3D Bowser in TOK proves that what we play is the real world displayed in another style and not the random one off self contained book containing a Sticker Star copy in Paper Jam.
All my thoughts exactly. I also just cannot stand Tanabe, his obsession with new just for the sake of new is so frustrating. Sometimes, people just want the same sort of gameplay with a new splash of (say it with me folks) plot, characterization, and worldbuilding.
Tanabe is extremely arrogant, doesn't listen to fans and should be fired from nintendo.
Luigi's Mansion 3 was the last new Nintendo release I particularly enjoyed (and paid for), but one of my few annoyances with it was the slamming mechanic and how it was meant to be so important for fighting ghosts.
Betcha'll never guess whose idea THAT was.
Who’s here after The Thousand Year Door got announced for Switch?
Me
I've been here before the announcement and I'm certain he's just as excited as everyone else
He's not
…why didn’t they ever consider a paper Wario / Waluigi title if they were so focused on not ruining Mario brand but keeping to the old Mario fan base?
Hell they could make millions off of a TTYD2 where Wario or Waluigi are YEARS behind Mario but find out years after the events of the first game that there’s treasure…coincidentally the shadow queen took hold of a new vessel like Grodus’ body from the neck down, and now Wario/Waluigi and a band of misfit partners have to stop the shadow queen while Rogueport is under attack.
There, it’s that flipping simple to get the roots growing all over again…just at bare minimum give the bread crumbs to the older audiences “hey thanks for supporting us all these years” while still being a new venture for newer audiences who enjoyed the other paper Mario games.
It could be that someone like Miyamoto told the Paper Mario producer that he preferred gameplay over story and perhaps due to Japanese culture the producer took it as gospel for the rest of the series to come, even though there should be more of a balance, and that you shouldn't just go one way or the other, though gameplay always has to be good to compliment a good story. Funny because the gameplay isn't really changing much anyways except for some stupid gimmik every game
Now that Koizumi is starting to take over, Xenomario is gonna be lit.
I just wish they'd take out the RPG elements if they don't want to make an RPG
@@ForrestFox626 True, could be a pride thing, even though they want to do something else they just keep to what they made because no one else "can do better than them"
@@dezmas9332 The reason could be the hardware. With the gamecube, the technology could only improve of what was done. Now a days the hardware can do so much more like add really gimmicky ideas. Miyamoto focus's way too much of taking advantage of the capabilities of the hardware first, then make a game.
For example F-zero was made to take advantage of Mode 7. Luigi's Mansion was made to take advantage of the Gamecube's impressive lighting. Starfox Zero was only made to take advantage of the gamepad. However now a days it's much harder to maintain a balance hardware advancements and core gameplay.
Just cause you can doesn't mean you should.
@@orangeslash1667 what are you on about (you're so damn lucky I don't want to get banned)
WE EATING GOOD TONIGHT BOYS!!!
also the lack of consistency:
Bobby dies
Mario & Bowser: "well lets use Bob-Ombs, we have enough of them"
That’s not inconsistency. That’s called kamikazes.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 this makes it just extremely dark
When we lose characters like Doopliss, O' Chunks, Francis, or many other wacky faces in favor of literal copy paste Mario Characters it's definitely a bad issue. Those older characters were almost all wacky or goofy in their own way and it showed how much charm they had.
If you don’t think Hole Punch is a charming boss then you need to rethink your opinions.
I left a comment on that subspace video like 3 years ago offering a little bit of critique, but mostly being genuinely impressed at the quality of that video.
Really glad to see that you found your “voice” in your content. Outstanding video essay. Really good script, editing, and pacing.
Sticker Star still boils me more. I played it over a weekend and was unbelievably furious by the end of it. I skipped Color Splash, having already been burned by Sticker Star and immediately recognizing it as more of the same. I wanted to give Origami King a chance, but I waited for reviews and was glad I did, because, yeah, I had to skip it too. At this point I'm too disappointed to be angry.
I really wish Super Mario RPG remake blows Origami King out of the water to send a *very* clear message. I loved Thousand Year Door and Super's stories and I would love things to go back that way.
I agree with you, and I really hope we can get a positive wind blowing here.
IS really fumbled the ball back in 2012 when they went to change directions from one franchise to another. Fire Emblem was also part of IS property and older than PM and then they revived the series to where we at today. We are gonna see another PM game next year since it’s every four years and probably gonna be better than Orgami King.
F# CK YOU FOR SKIPPING COLOR SPLASH ITS AN AMAZING GAME
COLOR SPLASH SWEEP COLOR SPLASH SWEEP COLOR SPLASH SWEEP
@@hoohoo431my man is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
I tried to play through Sticker Star twice. Both times I got bored and played something else when I got to the ice world (World 4). Wasn't a good introduction to Paper Mario coming from Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time (which me loved). Playing Thousand Year Door then Paper Mario 64 changed that big time. But then... those kind of Paper Mario games don't exist these days. Shame.
I played sticker star when it came out and i had a blast with it since i was a bit younger. I hate it now since i see the potential it had with the more paper focused features and a lot of cool one off things that just kinda were there.
I think it's really funny that they didn't include exp because they felt like it would alienate casual audiences when their literal best selling franchise(and the best selling period) is pokemon. Which is a turn-based rpg with exp
2 months later and look at where we at now
The thing about taking a step in the right direction is; you need to keep walking in that same direction, not spin back around after two steps in the opposite way of where you were heading.
I'm so grateful I grew up with The Thousand Year Door and Super Paper Mario.
my least favorite design decision in the new paper mario games is when they remove all elements of strategy from battles in favor of just giving you an instant win if you solve the puzzle, and either making the fight hell or outright killing you if you don't solve it. this was bad with sticker star's bosses, and at its worst with color splash's bosses (the steak and the lemmy fight were unforgivable), but in origami king, that awful "battle" structure managed to spread to EVERY FIGHT IN THE GAME
Making every Toad, Goomba and Koopa into the same exact things is what sucked any heart and soul out of this franchise that it had.
It's true that Origami King is the closest we've gotten to capturing the feeling of the original 3 games, but it still feels like Nintendo is hellbent on limiting the potential of the franchise by making it align with Miyamoto's "perfect vision" of Mario's world and cast. Honestly, I'm thankful for the Super Mario RPG remake we're getting because with the Mario & Luigi series put on the backburner after Alphadream's shutdown, I was going to lose faith in the future of traditional turn-based games in the franchise.
Origami King is nowhere near close the first three, still really far. This game still suffers exactly the same length as Color Splash and Sticker Star.
Miyamoto has had no major involvement in Paper Mario since sticker star
All the restrictions there is in the game, is self done, by intelligent systems
@@LumaMars Miyamoto probably was pissed by Sticker's outcome and didn't want to come back.
@@rattlemespoons577 Miyamoto is the fall guy for their fucking bullshit. His suggestions make way more sense in regards to Paper Mario 1-3 in how they reuse and apply the original Mario races into the games.
What he actually doesn't want is another Super Paper Mario because it diverges too much from Mario exclusive content. Unique content that can instead be replaced by unique adaptations of Gombas, Boos, Bomb-Bombs, and etc. to keep the Mario spirit intact.
@@justice8718 But even that is nonsense. Mario Odyssey can have new races but paper mario is only allowed to have unique characters if they are part of an already existing mario race? Doesn't make sense at all.
Not so much paper mario, but Mario RPG and thousand year door had a bunch of new races that still looked like they fit in with Mario's world. Super Paper Mario's problem was that most of the characters looked like strange shape people - but the point wasn't to be familiar, they were in another dimension. One town of them I'd be fine with but after a while it got repetitive and wanted to see some creatures that looked more like the art style of a mario game. (keep in mind I said style, not the same creatures - you can make new creatures while still fitting in with the mario world as done with mario rpg and thousand year door)
As repetitive as the weird shaped folks got in super paper mario it's NO way near as bad as their use of toads now,. THREE games of this toad insanity, like they're trying to make people hate toads.
I also want to say that the newer artstyle blows.
I hate the white outline around the characters. They look like stickers and don't fit into the world at all.
Another taint Sticker Star left on the franchise. The pop-up storybook aesthetic was peak.
@@plasticold2167 Sticker Star didn't have the white outlines though. They originated in Color Splash
@@gamesandluigifan7152originated from Peak Paper Mario
@@motivatedman9730 totally agreed, Color Splash is severely underrated
Yeah, the white outline looks garbage and annoying.
I don't mean to be pedantic, but...
Watt is a Lil Sparky, not an Angry Sun
Another point about the no EXP gain from battles, is that it doesn't incentivize the player to engage in combat as there are essentially no rewards for doing so. Then eventually it comes to avoiding battles altogether, whenever you can. And when avoiding battles in a RPG is the best option, something is fundamentally wrong with your game.
I played through Origami Kong giving it a fair chance, I played up until the second chapter, then I stopped playing for a while because other games caught my interest at the time, I then returned to it after a while yeah, that’s when it hit me, the combat is too much of a brain twister for me and as stated, it’s just the typical RPG formula but with more tedious cumbersome steps added to it and there isn’t no sense of growth or satisfaction. You don’t level up and get stronger. I’m so glad the game that started it all, Super Mario RPG is getting a Remake🌟💙
I liked the combat for being a little puzzle but not for being combat. If they'd actually made it more challenging as the game went on (it seems to peak in chapter 3), I probably would have picked more fights.
As for the leveling up, you don't do it through XP (baffling decision). Instead, you have to explore the world and find big cardboard hearts. This increases Mario's HP and attack power at the same time.
@@Twentydragon Are you forgetting how FP was gained in Mario RPG?
You said it. The 'Paper' bit about Paper Mario was meant to be a tiny laugh at how every character is a 2D image, thin as paper. At least it was starting from TTYD.
But now that paper bit is being taken far too literally. Too often are we shown cardboard, scissors, coloring pencils and _P A P E R_ to remind you that you are, in fact, playing a _P A P E R_ Mario game.
Bug Fables > Origami King.
THIS👆
Idk i couldnt get into bug fables, the gameplay is definitely what i want from the paper mario series but i just didn't care for the bug aesthetic, i played chapter one and haven't played past that.
@@JerginBootwyler you didn’t like the main 3 characters? They DO get character development constantly as the story goes much like Midna from Zelda Twilight Princess for example. The bugs are all still people as much as the roads and gombas of Paper Mario’s past.
@MrSpartan993 i liked the bee character vi, i didnt care for kabbu, and leif i didnt get much of since he came in around the end of chapter one. Its not that the characters are bad, its just the designs aren't that appealing to me personally. Like i said the bug concept just isnt my thing. I'm looking out for the release of that that seahorse saga game though cause that one i do like.
@@JerginBootwyler so it’s more of a visual thing? It’s that you find the LOOKS of the game ugly and unappealing then? If that’s the issue then I can respect that, even if I think it looks as nice as any other paper Mario game.
Also what seahorse game?
This year, Nintendo seems absolutely determined to age this video into oblivion.
They haven't made a new game yet, it's just a remake, just like AlphaDream made those two remakes after Paper Jam, This video's point are still valid.
@@lilythebluespheresfan2897 This video’s point is that paper Mario should just die and we should move on, which has been kind of completely outdated by the announcement of TTYD Remade, which if it sells well, could mean the true return to form that everyone wants. This video is just really badly aged, even in just 2 and a half months.
@@MySnugglePuppyPaper Mario shouldn’t ever die but the old fans should just move on already and stop complaining.
@blizzardwizard6067 no. Paper Mario became objectively worse after sticker star. Sticker star was the first paper mario I ever played and it is also one of the worst games I have ever played. Gave the older games a chance and they are better in every single way.
@@MySnugglePuppyI get were your coming from, but there remaking a good game with a COMPLETELY different director, that doesn't validate anything lmao. If they DO make a good game after it, color me surprised.
I'm from the future.
I bring a message of a hope.
It’s also a message of doom.
You'll change your mind when you see the latest direct!😄
Literally the only priase I've heard for modern Paper Mario is some tweets going "lOoK aT hOw qUiRkY tHiS gAmE iS" and it's basic comedic writing a novice gag writer can make. Nothing about the gameplay being fun, nothing about the characters being well written, just Paper Mario fans trying to convince you the game is good like that meme of Will Smith holding a cup and trying not to look grossed out. You know the one.
False. Bobby and Olivia were nailed in execution as characters to the point where you actually feel something when they’re gone. And if you didn’t then you are a soulless monster. Also I know I’m not alone in thinking Origami Kings combat was good enough to not skip enemy encounters.
@@MySnugglePuppy the only thing i felt with bobby's death was confusion and then anger in disbelief of continuity. they retconned how bob ombs in universe work to have that sad tearjerk that an experienced mario fan could call out. common counter-arguments from a past debate with a pmtok fan was:
"factory bob ombs explode 1 time and die while born bob ombs live"
-ive researched this and it seems like its headcanon made up by the fans
"the black bob ombs are factory made ones which is why the unique ones live"
"bob ombs die if they make an explosion too big"
-the cutscene in ttyd shows a large amount of black bob ombs enter a canon, make an explosion powerful enough to launch mario & co to the moon, and they come parachuting down saying how fun it was and that they should do it again
when i brought these points up they just said i was overthinking and dipped out, which baffles me because i dont think wanting consistency in a series and things changing on a dime to suit drama shouldnt be considered "overthinking", and when you point out how the bob ombs are treated in Mario Kart and Mario Party, that doesn't put a good light over mario and the gang.
Olivia on the other hand, had me not bawling over her, but instead pissed off harder than a weeaboo getting his waifu called cringe on a fnaf discord from how contrived it was. more points were brought up such as:
"she had to sacrifice herself because the wish only allows one thing!"
-that is never brought up at all and she couldve added "except me" at the end of it if she wasn't given the Idiot Ball at the moment to add in another pointless tearjerker and to reset the status-quo for the next game.
"she wanted to be with her brother"
-Olly was willing to crush her under a boulder, even before that he trapped her behind a wall, leaving her alone and most likely never release her, alas, being poorly written, he suddenly becomes sympathetic after telling his silly motivation over trying to commit GENOCIDE over a passive species over the actions of ONE INDIVIDUAL, and i find it silly she would off herself over her c*@t of a brother, considering she already has people who care for her.
besides that the whole folding shit is contrived. how did olly know someone written on him if it was written inside of him. he couldn't have known that unless he was unfolded, written on, then refolded back while still being alive to notice it, which brings up more questions, and how the enemies wouldnt look like their regular forms if you unfolded the origami form's textures found in-game.
her death was offscreen so for all i know she actually did survive but was dragged off to the writers room and they went to fucking town on her before being selling her to a 4channer to have her as a personal maid slave, but hey, what do i know for a game that retcons and changes stuff on the fly, guh-huh!
p.s. sorry for the walls of text, i kind of went on a rant at the end, but i gotta point out things when i see them.
@@HoshiKebabsRetcons are normal experiences in any story. Remember that in the actual platformer games, Bob-ombs die when they explode.
@@blazechaos212yea but a retcon shouldn't make a crucial plot point happen because a character's ability changes. imagine if the Rabbids from rayman suddenly retconned to shart themselves to death after screaming when they lived before that and that becomes a major plot point in a story
theres also gameplay and story segregation. in the nsmb games, bob ombs dont pop back in after blowing up because they've been "defeated", including the bosses like the koopalings, who after being killed, pop back at the end cutscenes. if the koopalings can come back like nothing happened, than what says so otherwise for goomba #129 or any other mook?
@@HoshiKebabs There are retcons that become plot points in media though
Mario RPG is proof that tanabe lied about the mandate to a very big extent, and this blunder is definitely on him
I mean, it is an already existing game, so it’s not like all the unique characters can just be taken away, and it was really more of a Square game than a Nintendo one
I think we already had plenty proof of that when other thirdparty-handled spinoffs like Luigi's Mansion and ALL THREE sports titles (Tennis Aces, Golf Super Rush, Strikers Battle League) were able to bring back fully original character and change the appearance of "iconic" characters respectively
If not a lie, then it still most likely falls on Tanabe as I doubt Nintendo would specifically STILL target Paper Mario, and only Paper Mario.
It's more likely that Tanabe still thinks what he first directed, Sticker Star, is the way to go, despite billions of people still disliking that game to this day (regardless of the opinion on the two that came after).
I came back to this after the direct. And you know why! Boy howdy I got some good news!
Super Paper Mario was my introduction to the Paper Mario series, and In my opinion, it made a pretty good case for being an alternate artstyle for Mario Platformers. the dimension swapping especially seems like something that would have been super at home with the 3ds.
Sticker Star made all my Mario RPG goodwill fly out the window. Color Splash came and went without me even noticing. I saw the trailer for Origami King, saw the combat, and immediately moved on, with a small pang of sadness in my heart.
Nintendo fears The Thousand-Year Door.
Lucky us, then
The fact that there is a hidden ending to Origami King for not equipping a single accessory, which the game doesn’t even allude to, is pretty bad game design.
LATE EDIT: The info featured in this comment is actually incorrect. A friend of mine who has actually played and beaten Origami King has informed me that the hidden ending is for 100% completion. Apologies to all I have misinformed
It really isn’t. Just look it up before playing.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 Not everyone likes to spoil themselves ahead of time you know.
The bosses in origami king are some of the most uncreative bosses i ever seen.
Oh yeah, fucking scissors is gonna be the next memorable paper mario boss after doopliss
I don’t know about you, but fighting a giant pair of scissors is pretty memorable regardless of whether you dislike the design. Not even necessarily a defense of scissors, despite my personal love for him. It’s just really hard to forget fighting a giant pair of scissors in general.
@@oksure9261The rest of the bosses are still forgettable, though.
@@oksure9261is this supposed to be sarcastic?
@@twincherries6698 No. "Giant Pair of Scissors" is just too unique as an idea for a boss battle for it to be forgotten. It could easily be argued that the design is lazy (literally just scissors), but still, how often do you fight scissors in video games? Not very often, I can assume for most people.
Classic Paper Mario: Whimsical, intriguing, world building Mario universe
Modern Paper Mario: LMAO PAPER
Do you have play paper mario the origami king ?
@@leoah-yane1770Obviously not
Pulling the trigger on the Super Mario RPG remake definitely makes me think that Nintendo gave up on Paper Mario and FINALLY understood that the classics did it best (RPG, PM 1 and 2). Here's hoping Square makes Super Mario RPG 2 to finally put things back on track.
I would be down and some of the older people who worked at intelligent systems to help out with the writing and even battle system would be cool, I believe lots of people left Intelligent systems after the Wii game I believe.
They didn’t give up on Paper Mario at all. It’s just a remake of Super Mario RPG. (Which wasn’t even made by Nintendo) Nintendo hasn’t learned anything, and don’t believe in going back to the classics for anything besides the remake. . The fact that people think they have is truly baffling.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 I understand that just thinking something may have happened doesn't make it true. I honestly do think that some developers at Nintendo understand the situation with Paper Mario. Whether or not said developers have any sway is another story. I'm also aware that Nintendo didn't make Super Mario RPG. Paper Mario was a follow-up, though. Not story-wise but in the sense that it was another Mario RPG. You wouldn't have it without the original.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 if it’s not broke don’t fix it. I personally like the writing and world building in the Paper Mario games better and yes I’m a believer that older games are better.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 also that art style in super Mario rpg looks like garbage nowZ
Oragami king is a great game that feels like its sabotaging itself for no good reason
Bobby getting killed off and then shoving a Toad as the next partner was when I decided to stop caring about this series tbh.
i've said it 50 times at this point, if they wanted to remove the RPG factor and make an action puzzle game, they could have just stuck with super paper mario's gameplay.
boy, do I got good news for you. Today's Nintendo Direct
can’t wait for Paper Mario: Crayon Calamity where little timmy fricking ruins everything with his crayons of doom 💀
Basically the plot of lego movie 2:
I've argued so many times that the Paper Mario series wasn't its own separate thing, but rather a extension of the Mario universe, that they didn't put much emphasis on the Paper aspect of it as its setting.
Don't remember _WHY_ I was arguing this though, but I thank you for making this video.
At this point is pretty clear that pretty much every Mario game takes places in seemingly their own universe, including spinoffs. Nintendo seems to not want to build any kind of consistent characterization for their Mario series characters because they're scared it will alienate people who are (somehow) not familiar with Mario.
@@elllieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee bruh that's so dumb to even think as a concept especially when we have saw multiple times mario games having continuities and continuely referencing each other
@@mynameisntimportant1374 Gonna agree with this.
@@elllieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Honestly my friend, I think you're reaching.
There's a clear plan to make the franchise _Generic_ as possible, probably to keep it in a more marketable sense like how Mickey Mouse ended up, so the franchise's characters and setting can be applied to just about anything/everything.
But to go off and claim that Nintendo sees each and every single game taking place in its own separate universe?
@@KahunaLagoona How else would explain Mario Party and Mario Kart, or the fact that not only once did Princess Peach's castle get cut and lifted out of the ground but TWICE. you'd think they would have bolted that mfer down or something after the first time
Are you acoustic perchance
I think something that gets missed in the world-building and immersion department is that the first two/three Paper Mario's didn't really make a big deal out of the world being... paper. I dont think it's ever even mentioned that they're made of paper, the curses in TTYD are supposed to be painful and cruel because they contort and fold Mario's body; the joke obviously being that paper is meant to fold.
Origami King calls DIRECT attention to it in its very premise. Imagine having a Festival of the Flesh King, or celebrating the element Carbon. It would be super weird and in any universe that would be, in a sense, breaking the 4th wall.
Is it weird that I low-key want to see that in a non-paper series Mario RPG? Just have the story weirdly fixated on the fact that everyone’s an organic 3D creature?
16:35 This combat is not fine. It's not combat, it's solving the same riddles over and over again. If I want to play riddle games, I install puzzles and play loopy.
And solving a puzzle never felt rewarding. Instead not being able to solve the puzzle felt like a punishment.
I think it would already have been better if there wasn't a perfect solution the devs intended. But they should just randomize where the enemies are placed, and I can decide how to rotate everything. That would already have fixed most issues I had with it, I guess. Instead of being sad of not finding the perfect solution, I would be happy for finding an acceptable solution.
And besides that, I would like to know how much damage I'm currently making.
Thank you for being willing to call this game: bad.
Waiting for Paper Mario: The Ruler Ruler.
Stop giving them ideas!!!
I just want the old solid & practical battle mechanics from the classic games back. having no party members is something I could eventually get used to, but good lord the battles in "modern paper mario" just aren't fun anymore!
i know you already mentioned it in your video, and it's okay for it to not "fill the void" or anything lmao, but bug fables is still definitely worth a shot for anyone missing the series! it isn't mario, but it's still really special. i played it over 3 years ago at this point and i still adore the game and think about it constantly.
You know, I could not agree more. At this point I've been waiting almost 20 years for a real, honest sequel to PM and TTYD. If Bug Fables has to be the one to step in and fill that void, then so be it. I, for one, intend to welcome our new bug overlords with open arms.
@@platyhelminthes2877i agree with you i’ve been waiting for over a decade for a true sequel to ttyd and 64 and boycotted origomi king for bug fables because at least it’s still paper mario and gives me a true sequel to ttyd’s battle style that i loved
ya, this aged well
Dude, I’m like almost 19 and I grew up with thousand year door. My dad had a GameCube and an N64 and my favorite games were thousand year door and ocarina of time. These games made me fall in love with rpgs and open world games before I even knew what those meant. It saddens me greatly knowing that most of my favorite dev teams are just either giving up or getting corporatized.
They said they didn't want two mario rpg series, mario and luigi the only other mario rpg is gone and they still have yet to release a new original mario rpg after 5+ years.
And then they let Mario + Rabbids be a thing. And now SMRPG got a remake on the way.
Yeah I never understood why everyone thought this was such a good entry in the series.
As far as I'm concerned, if your game has a combat system and the game has no reason to participate in the combat...it shouldn't have a combat system.
And everything outside of the combat system isn't enough to match up to the good entries in the series.
EDIT: Funnily enough, you mentioned Odyssey as an example of the Mario series having unique characters when you could've used the even more insane example of Mario and Rabbids. A game developed by Ubisoft. A game whose art is managed by UBISOFT.
I enjoyed origami king because it was MORE engaging than the previous subpar paper marios. I could see its drawbacks from the start but it was still a genuinely enjoyable game and i think they did really well with the limitations they had. Olivia might even be one of my all time favorite Mario characters
@@ember4303 I'm glad you enjoyed the game, but that doesn't change the fact that I can't understand WHY.
I tried it and I didn't find it engaging. Was it more engaging than Sticker Star? Yes. Does that mean anything? No. Much like Color Splash being 'slightly better' than Sticker Star means nothing, Origami King being 'more engaging' than Sticker Star means nothing.
When not compared to terrible products Origami King is not engaging or fun. It fails to build a world I should care about, barely even tries to make any character I should care about (and fails the few it tries), and is fundamentally boring.
Similarly, while I'm glad you found Olivia likeable - I didn't. I don't care about Olivia. The game utterly fails to make me care about her in anyway. Not only does she not compare to my favorite characters from past Paper Mario games, she doesn't even compare to my favorite character from the mainline Mario games in Rosalina. And that is a problem when Rosalina isn't given nearly as much time to develop as Olivia - yet I still cared more about her than Olivia.
I can acknowledge that someone else enjoys it, but as someone that critically analyzes literature and characterization, I fundamentally cannot understand what they enjoy about it.
@rhettrayos4685 I can't explain it either haha. Admittedly it's pretty easy for me to be engaged with a subpar story because I'm easily immersed. I tend to dislike things after the fact once ive thought about what i just experience, but I can't really complain too much about origami king. I won't even try to act like it holds a candle to thousand year door or super though.
"Yeah I never understood why everyone thought this was such a good entry in the series" Where are you getting this from? A lot of people since the game's release didn't like it.
@@Leee275 me lol
Super Paper Mario is the easiest defense against the "you hate change" argument. That game rules, and a lot of PM fans agree. It's not an aversion to change. It's an aversion to the SPECIFIC changes they chose to make with the last 3 games.
Honestly, returning to the TTYD style would be a big change. There are more PM games that aren't like it than are.
to be fair, SOME older fans dislike Super Paper Mario, but not nearly as many as with Sticker Star or Color-Splash.
They have returned to the TTYD style now.
As someone who skipped Sticker Star and Color Splash, I could not bring myself to finish Origami King. Disappointing, but expected.
Bobby's story would have honestly been alright.. IF Mario didn't previously have Bob-omb companions whose field abilities were to blow up obstacles. For what reason does Bobby die forever? Makes no sense.
Yeah I don't get it either.
People have a good theroy for why,Bobby was a manufactured artificial bob-omb made in mass for bowsers army to explode then cease to exist while the other party members had been natural bob-ombs that were created through reproduction.
@@powerfullpummel6417
That is a neat theory. I appreciate it greatly.
@@powerfullpummel6417
But that's just a theory... A GAAAAAME THEORY!
Jokes aside, if you have to resort to theory crafting to headcanon some bullshit that isn't addressed in the writing, it just shows how bad the writing is.
@@espurrseyes42 Not really? TOK is a well written game hell we see bobombs die in previous games that are manufactured.
And now they're announcing a TTYD remake. Wonder what that means. Are they trying to get our hopes up again, or is this the sign that they're actually planning on listening?
We can only pray to the paper gods that we get a new mainline traditional game or a straight up sequel to this. I miss the partners 😢
OK, between this, the remake of Super Mario RPG, and Wonder being a totally original platformer with fresh ideas, I do feel there is genuine precedence to believe that Nintendo is turning around.
OK, between this, the remake of Super Mario RPG, and Wonder being a totally original platformer with fresh ideas, I do feel there is genuine precedence to believe that Nintendo is turning around.
They’re not listening it’s just a remake to celebrate the game’s anniversary.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 so why didn't 64 get one then?
Paper Mario & Pokemon both have this same issue. They've become... corporate. Soulless. There isn't much there to show love was put into the games. If anything at all. It feels like it's a game made to simply make a game. Not to tell a story, create an experience, or build upon an established world. They get very bland very fast, and never seem to grasp a player the way previous entries did. As a long-time fan of both I've seen the glory days and I've seen the dark ages we're in now. How games can go from such fantastic experiences like the original Paper Mario trilogy and the first 5 gens of Pokemon to... "Yeah uuh... here is this new flashy thing? Oh the story? The gameplay? Don't worry about that look at this new flashy thing!" is just tragic. I skipped Paper Mario CS and OK but from what I've seen they don't do anything but repeat Shitter Star 2 more times. Next year is a new Paper Mario game, and our best bet is to make sure SMRPG Remake SELLS LIKE MAD and send a very clear, loud message to Nintendo that "YES, WE WANT MORE OF THIS! TURN THE SHIP AROUND WE JUST SAILED AWAY FROM PURE GOLD!"
Couldn't agree more with you. I always enjoy these video essay-types and find them really enjoyable. I appreciate the work you put in man.
hard agree on nearly every point you made here. it's baffling that we've been dealing with the exact same problems for over a decade now, and nintendo and / or intelligent systems REFUSE to budge
Nintendo/ Intelligent systems has no reason to listen to your complaints. As long as the games still sell, they don’t care about any of your problems.
Man Bug Tales was such a wake up call for me. I had played Paper Mario 1 but never any other entry in the series and suddenly I'm confronted with Origami King.
It was like going from Pikmin 1 to 3, so many new systems and baby level puzzles. What happened to my demonic grass children management strategy game adventure?
Or even Star Fox. The snes game was groundbreaking but a bit bland by today's standards. Lylat Wars gave us stages with multiple completion states and different routes, hidden objectives, paths and then they can all that goodness in favour of ground battles and a linear story.
Like why is nintendo so allergic to doing the same thing? with this mentality no wonder we're never getting a new F-zero, they'd probably tell us to learn how an engine works at an engineer level just to get our car running because the lubricating the pistons minigame is such a joy to play.
Modern Paper Mario so bad the old one had to return from the ashes to teach them about an actual RPG
Nintendo are really going down the cod/sport game rout of pumping out a new bland Paper Mario game with a "new" paper themed gimmick every few years or so, it's honestly saddening...
I just wish nintendo should make the games less "gimmicky",honestly.
I like how educated and updated you are on the information surrounding the Paper Mario series and the executives behind it's creation going foward. I hope you'll share your thoughts on the TTYD Remake on a future video.