Also like I predicted early on in the video someone saw R6 in the list on Reddit and said they immediately stopped watching and that I'm a joke, when I explain why/what it means. Some people are very impatient which is why I try to get straight to the point lol.
Really solid takes all around and I'm glad you mentioned other elements that impact the skill ceiling, other than TTK. I will have to say though, the vast majority of the CoD comp community considers MW2019 to be in the top 3 most casual/least comp CoDs of all time. With that said, I agree with all your takes expect your take regarding matchmaking. XD's system (does not use strict SBMM/EOMM) is not sweaty at all - compared to modern day SBMM/EOMM (like Apex and CoD).
Yes MW2019 isn't comp for other reasons outside of this. R6 and MW2 share the same TTK mobility combo but R6 is 10x more competitive than that game. Map design, game design, all play an important part of this. And XD doesn't have SBMM I know, but I've had my two friends who suck at shooters who are really competitive play a plethora of games with me and they cant handle or like XD because it's too hard, and a reason for that is because of the strong air strafing paired with long TTK. For someone like you and me the game might be easy, but the average COD player has a 0.7 KD and isn't good and from a normal persons perspective the game is not at all casual.
This is a pretty decent take, I pretty much agree overall. At first, I thought it was strange you included Siege on the list, but now I think about looking at the later part of the video, I definitely agree that Siege’s competitiveness isn’t in the gunplay, but everything surrounding the gunplay, which is the main thing MW2 lacks, making it make less sense than Siege to have such a TTK mobility combination. I would say another game that shows the need for a balance between mobility and TTK is Titanfall 2. The developers at Respawn played around with raising the TTK during the game’s lifecycle and found that it lead to interactions being less fun because people would just end up running away from gunfights.
A thing that helps Siege's skill gap gunplay wise is despite the fast TTK headshots are one shot, which means people with more accurate aim can still win gunfights even if they get shot at first by hitting a smaller target. It also has no aim assist on console, and extremely high recoil on PC which makes aiming in the game something you have to learn compared to others. So if were just talking gunplay, theirs some things that help make it more competitive/creates a skill gap, but strategy is the most important.
I'm not sure how this exactly fits into the topic, but I've played fps games since 90s, everything from unreal, cs, quake, cods, bf, overwarch, etc. And the game that I really like recently is the finals. Its really novel, mobile, feels fun and tactical. Now don't get me wrong, I'd still play quake if they made a new one (maybe this time don't outsource to some Russian studio that has no clue how to fix netcode and other bs), or even unreal tournament if epic bothered stopping their infinite money glitch speedrun, but yeah so far the finals is very fresh and I really like the way destruction adds a whole dimension to the gameplay.
Where do you put Doom: Eternal's multiplayer? How about Quake Champions? What do you think of the TTK changes in Apex over the years? I believe that "battle royals" (Apex, Warzone, Fortnite, etc.) should never have short TTK, because you get to: wait in queue, loot, get killed fast, exit, wait in queue, loot, get killed, etc. Short TTK, for me, is only tolerable in deathmatch multiplayer modes. Depending on queue length, short TTK (or what you call fast TTK) can be very frustrating. In a game where you spend 10 minutes looting, the best is to make the TTK as slow as possible to give you as long of a fight as possible. The fight is what you look for, that adrenaline and everything. In a deathmatch casual play, the adrenaline comes with how close your fights/deaths/resurrections are from one another.
I play MW2 love it with the fast TTK it is slow mobility but i do things on there that counteracts it as much as possible, but its still low mobility. I tried MW3 i feel like there is way too many hit markers or as you say bullet sponges 🧽 which i like that i think I'll use it from now 🤝🏽 but yeah MW3 fast movement horrible TTK. I actually played BO6 with the beta and tbh its horrible with the TTK HORRIBLE, yes they got omnimovement but thats it 😔.. i feel like the game i grew up loving and playing is long gone now 😮💨... Also thank you for the explanations I came across your page from another page and love it especially for a guy who don't know much about this sort of stuff. 😊
In my opinion, I think games should strive for a more medium ttk, high mobility type of system. I think health steal (quake style) or siphon ( either per shot or after kill) would heavily alleviate, alot of the common issues found in fast ttk games (make them much much more enjoyable), I do enjoy high ttk games personally because of the feeling that I can properly fight back (often times in low ttk games it really feels as if you instadie no matter what you do, just an unavoidable thing, and when it happens once its fine, but if its a common occurance [game servers/netcode of modern games don't help with this at all] then it makes the game frustrating to any level of player), although it does come with the downsides aformentioned in this video,That is why i think striving for something medium ttk with high mobility would allow for these fights and gameplay loops to be diverse, concise, and dynamic, (implementing health steal or siphon to these low ttk games would do a very simliar thing).I also feel that the lack of consistency in mobility and gunplay heavily effects how the ttk is read and feels throughout the game often leading to it feeling inconsistent. The focus should definitely be put to better servers/netcode and less random variables that can effect gunplay and mobility drastically (gunsway,reticle bobbing, muzzle flash, gun punch/flinch, and heavy visual recoil) these are often used to artifically increase or make the ttk feel longer than it is, rather than providing a concise way to have a consistent basis in which you play, which will often times lead players to feeling as if there was nothing they could possibly do (so many variable out of their control). Regarding mobility, the uptime and downtime of said mobility is a key factor that can influence the whole feel of the ttk and flow of the game, the way it is done in cod can feel clunky and out of place, especially when the servers are 20hz it just leads to massive inconsistency in how you can move and what that movement does. From the games I have played Fast TTK and high mobility is extremely good, i instantly think of bf4 (with all the movement tech) and how that makes a fast ttk feel way longer. It also heavily depends on what you consider mobility, I feel as if xdefiant, and cod have never had high mobility, always closer to medium or low, something akin to titanfall, gunz,quake,ut,ratz,fortnite(ton of mobility items that cycle that change the mobility but at base is fairly fast),overwatch (certain characters), and team fortess (class dependent) are all games that i would say have high mobility. Obviouly, they all range in ttk and game direction. But for mobility consideration I feel as if cod and xdefiant they are closer to medium mobility/kinda slow mobility. I would put something like tarkov on the slow mobility metric. There's a ton of things that effect the skill celling, but something I learned that I think is super important for design, is welcoming skill floor and high skill celling, or another way to put it is easy to learn, hard to master. Arena fps games would often fall into not being welcoming at the skill floor which made them completely unapproachable even in the most noob friendly modes (instagib), and that + having a super high celling makes the game feel like an insurmountable task (which most people don't see the use in doing because its more long term). As of late most games have instead went for a more Low skill celling, welcoming skill floor type of deal which just feels very very unsatisfactory, because it feels as if there isn't really anything to improve at and theres very minor differences in skill levels between a player ( almost feels homogenized like every player is the same, sbmm, eomm, and mmr don't help this feeling). Something fortnite did great was have the ability and appeal of a low skill floor game, but have a extremely high celling, but also then cater to the low skill floor with various modes, and items (this would sometimes effect the celling for that duration of time) the idea of no-builds was genius in that, because it allowed all the people to enjoy a low skill floor, medium to high skill celling mode that is extremely welcoming, and only slightly punishing (in the ranked mode mostly).
A lot of tactical shooter games, since they aim to be somewhat realistic. But it's why tactical games aren't known for who's the best aimer or having super satisfying gunplay. It's about the thrill, the immersion, the atmosphere or other features that sells the game and keeps you coming back.
i see , i wanted to play some games in these categories to see for myself as iam new to gaming in general. Would like to play something thats like halo, slow ttk an low mobility . So far enjoying splitgate 1 with my friends@@Hybred
i think currently my favorite system is a higher ttk, but my favorite games dont have that. my favorite fps at the moment is The Finals, which has a pretty low ttk.
sadly I haven't played any of these games, [and they aren't popular in my region, eastern europe], and I feel like they're relatively simillar to one another simillar and comparison may be unfair. I have played valve games and I feel like this just doesn't apply here. Just like another person mentioned, would be interesting to hear how that all applies to games like quake or doom eternal. For the games that I've played, there's tf2 [12v12 class shooter] which is extremely casual, even though everyone knows how easy it is for 2 players to cooperate for a second and quickly win. Most people just play to run around and kill the enemies for themselves. at the same time we have counter strike, you can instakill with a headshot, esp with a sniper, and without it no engagement takes more than 2-3 seconds, most defuse bomb rounds don't last 5 minutes. And notoriously cs community is extremely sweaty and competitive, there is an individual name for every single spot on the map (i counted like 60 names for dust 2, worlds tiniest map). Oh also, in cs:go the in the main gamemode you don't respawn untill the round is finished. I tried quake 3 and it feels like the most individualist and the least coordinated game I've played, partially because ttk is somewhat low, at the same time everyone is super fast so idk what would coordination even look like there [it almost definitely exists in the pro scene but I don't know much about it]. either way interesting thoughts. Also, besides movement we should consider off time, if you double size of any map your dodging abilities stay the same, yet time it takes to find an enemy only increases, and if you double the player count it would change the other way, and 1v2 would happen more often.
call of series when they added the strafe shit it's unplayable : MW3 and black ops 6 Same on BF1 but less faster and not so long in distance I have 1000h on bf1 and when someone is lagging you can't hit, even worse when he is sliding/strafing
how tf is xDefiant slow TTK? games with slow ttk: Quake, Apex Legends, Overwatch, Fortnite, Halo etc. I would class xDefiant and pretty much all of the CoD games as fast TTK
Also like I predicted early on in the video someone saw R6 in the list on Reddit and said they immediately stopped watching and that I'm a joke, when I explain why/what it means.
Some people are very impatient which is why I try to get straight to the point lol.
Really solid takes all around and I'm glad you mentioned other elements that impact the skill ceiling, other than TTK. I will have to say though, the vast majority of the CoD comp community considers MW2019 to be in the top 3 most casual/least comp CoDs of all time.
With that said, I agree with all your takes expect your take regarding matchmaking. XD's system (does not use strict SBMM/EOMM) is not sweaty at all - compared to modern day SBMM/EOMM (like Apex and CoD).
Yes MW2019 isn't comp for other reasons outside of this.
R6 and MW2 share the same TTK mobility combo but R6 is 10x more competitive than that game.
Map design, game design, all play an important part of this.
And XD doesn't have SBMM I know, but I've had my two friends who suck at shooters who are really competitive play a plethora of games with me and they cant handle or like XD because it's too hard, and a reason for that is because of the strong air strafing paired with long TTK. For someone like you and me the game might be easy, but the average COD player has a 0.7 KD and isn't good and from a normal persons perspective the game is not at all casual.
This is a pretty decent take, I pretty much agree overall.
At first, I thought it was strange you included Siege on the list, but now I think about looking at the later part of the video, I definitely agree that Siege’s competitiveness isn’t in the gunplay, but everything surrounding the gunplay, which is the main thing MW2 lacks, making it make less sense than Siege to have such a TTK mobility combination.
I would say another game that shows the need for a balance between mobility and TTK is Titanfall 2. The developers at Respawn played around with raising the TTK during the game’s lifecycle and found that it lead to interactions being less fun because people would just end up running away from gunfights.
A thing that helps Siege's skill gap gunplay wise is despite the fast TTK headshots are one shot, which means people with more accurate aim can still win gunfights even if they get shot at first by hitting a smaller target.
It also has no aim assist on console, and extremely high recoil on PC which makes aiming in the game something you have to learn compared to others.
So if were just talking gunplay, theirs some things that help make it more competitive/creates a skill gap, but strategy is the most important.
Ain’t no way siege is the most casual, I was typing this as you called me out wtf
I'm not sure how this exactly fits into the topic, but I've played fps games since 90s, everything from unreal, cs, quake, cods, bf, overwarch, etc. And the game that I really like recently is the finals. Its really novel, mobile, feels fun and tactical. Now don't get me wrong, I'd still play quake if they made a new one (maybe this time don't outsource to some Russian studio that has no clue how to fix netcode and other bs), or even unreal tournament if epic bothered stopping their infinite money glitch speedrun, but yeah so far the finals is very fresh and I really like the way destruction adds a whole dimension to the gameplay.
Where do you put Doom: Eternal's multiplayer? How about Quake Champions?
What do you think of the TTK changes in Apex over the years?
I believe that "battle royals" (Apex, Warzone, Fortnite, etc.) should never have short TTK, because you get to: wait in queue, loot, get killed fast, exit, wait in queue, loot, get killed, etc. Short TTK, for me, is only tolerable in deathmatch multiplayer modes. Depending on queue length, short TTK (or what you call fast TTK) can be very frustrating.
In a game where you spend 10 minutes looting, the best is to make the TTK as slow as possible to give you as long of a fight as possible. The fight is what you look for, that adrenaline and everything. In a deathmatch casual play, the adrenaline comes with how close your fights/deaths/resurrections are from one another.
I play MW2 love it with the fast TTK it is slow mobility but i do things on there that counteracts it as much as possible, but its still low mobility. I tried MW3 i feel like there is way too many hit markers or as you say bullet sponges 🧽 which i like that i think I'll use it from now 🤝🏽 but yeah MW3 fast movement horrible TTK. I actually played BO6 with the beta and tbh its horrible with the TTK HORRIBLE, yes they got omnimovement but thats it 😔.. i feel like the game i grew up loving and playing is long gone now 😮💨... Also thank you for the explanations I came across your page from another page and love it especially for a guy who don't know much about this sort of stuff. 😊
In my opinion, I think games should strive for a more medium ttk, high mobility type of system. I think health steal (quake style) or siphon ( either per shot or after kill) would heavily alleviate, alot of the common issues found in fast ttk games (make them much much more enjoyable), I do enjoy high ttk games personally because of the feeling that I can properly fight back (often times in low ttk games it really feels as if you instadie no matter what you do, just an unavoidable thing, and when it happens once its fine, but if its a common occurance [game servers/netcode of modern games don't help with this at all] then it makes the game frustrating to any level of player), although it does come with the downsides aformentioned in this video,That is why i think striving for something medium ttk with high mobility would allow for these fights and gameplay loops to be diverse, concise, and dynamic, (implementing health steal or siphon to these low ttk games would do a very simliar thing).I also feel that the lack of consistency in mobility and gunplay heavily effects how the ttk is read and feels throughout the game often leading to it feeling inconsistent.
The focus should definitely be put to better servers/netcode and less random variables that can effect gunplay and mobility drastically (gunsway,reticle bobbing, muzzle flash, gun punch/flinch, and heavy visual recoil) these are often used to artifically increase or make the ttk feel longer than it is, rather than providing a concise way to have a consistent basis in which you play, which will often times lead players to feeling as if there was nothing they could possibly do (so many variable out of their control). Regarding mobility, the uptime and downtime of said mobility is a key factor that can influence the whole feel of the ttk and flow of the game, the way it is done in cod can feel clunky and out of place, especially when the servers are 20hz it just leads to massive inconsistency in how you can move and what that movement does.
From the games I have played Fast TTK and high mobility is extremely good, i instantly think of bf4 (with all the movement tech) and how that makes a fast ttk feel way longer. It also heavily depends on what you consider mobility, I feel as if xdefiant, and cod have never had high mobility, always closer to medium or low, something akin to titanfall, gunz,quake,ut,ratz,fortnite(ton of mobility items that cycle that change the mobility but at base is fairly fast),overwatch (certain characters), and team fortess (class dependent) are all games that i would say have high mobility. Obviouly, they all range in ttk and game direction. But for mobility consideration I feel as if cod and xdefiant they are closer to medium mobility/kinda slow mobility. I would put something like tarkov on the slow mobility metric.
There's a ton of things that effect the skill celling, but something I learned that I think is super important for design, is welcoming skill floor and high skill celling, or another way to put it is easy to learn, hard to master. Arena fps games would often fall into not being welcoming at the skill floor which made them completely unapproachable even in the most noob friendly modes (instagib), and that + having a super high celling makes the game feel like an insurmountable task (which most people don't see the use in doing because its more long term). As of late most games have instead went for a more Low skill celling, welcoming skill floor type of deal which just feels very very unsatisfactory, because it feels as if there isn't really anything to improve at and theres very minor differences in skill levels between a player ( almost feels homogenized like every player is the same, sbmm, eomm, and mmr don't help this feeling). Something fortnite did great was have the ability and appeal of a low skill floor game, but have a extremely high celling, but also then cater to the low skill floor with various modes, and items (this would sometimes effect the celling for that duration of time) the idea of no-builds was genius in that, because it allowed all the people to enjoy a low skill floor, medium to high skill celling mode that is extremely welcoming, and only slightly punishing (in the ranked mode mostly).
Any other examples of fast ttk low mobility games?
A lot of tactical shooter games, since they aim to be somewhat realistic.
But it's why tactical games aren't known for who's the best aimer or having super satisfying gunplay. It's about the thrill, the immersion, the atmosphere or other features that sells the game and keeps you coming back.
i see , i wanted to play some games in these categories to see for myself as iam new to gaming in general. Would like to play something thats like halo, slow ttk an low mobility . So far enjoying splitgate 1 with my friends@@Hybred
Hey hybrid. What did you get suspended on reddit for?
i think currently my favorite system is a higher ttk, but my favorite games dont have that. my favorite fps at the moment is The Finals, which has a pretty low ttk.
Not if you're a heavy ofc, but then they balance it by reducing mobility so it's fine. That's the point of the video
sadly I haven't played any of these games, [and they aren't popular in my region, eastern europe], and I feel like they're relatively simillar to one another simillar and comparison may be unfair.
I have played valve games and I feel like this just doesn't apply here. Just like another person mentioned, would be interesting to hear how that all applies to games like quake or doom eternal.
For the games that I've played, there's tf2 [12v12 class shooter] which is extremely casual, even though everyone knows how easy it is for 2 players to cooperate for a second and quickly win. Most people just play to run around and kill the enemies for themselves.
at the same time we have counter strike, you can instakill with a headshot, esp with a sniper, and without it no engagement takes more than 2-3 seconds, most defuse bomb rounds don't last 5 minutes.
And notoriously cs community is extremely sweaty and competitive, there is an individual name for every single spot on the map (i counted like 60 names for dust 2, worlds tiniest map). Oh also, in cs:go the in the main gamemode you don't respawn untill the round is finished.
I tried quake 3 and it feels like the most individualist and the least coordinated game I've played, partially because ttk is somewhat low, at the same time everyone is super fast so idk what would coordination even look like there [it almost definitely exists in the pro scene but I don't know much about it].
either way interesting thoughts. Also, besides movement we should consider off time, if you double size of any map your dodging abilities stay the same, yet time it takes to find an enemy only increases, and if you double the player count it would change the other way, and 1v2 would happen more often.
call of series when they added the strafe shit it's unplayable : MW3 and black ops 6
Same on BF1 but less faster and not so long in distance
I have 1000h on bf1 and when someone is lagging you can't hit, even worse when he is sliding/strafing
how tf is xDefiant slow TTK? games with slow ttk: Quake, Apex Legends, Overwatch, Fortnite, Halo etc. I would class xDefiant and pretty much all of the CoD games as fast TTK