Because I think this is relevant-Eugenics: "The study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable."
Frank didn't wrote Messiah because people misunderstood Paul. The first three of the books were already written as one, and it was due to editorial request that he went back and rewrote them as three separate pieces. See: his interview at UCLA in 1985. There was never this hurried "Oh no, people don't get my book" that's just condescending, as Paul - based on his Greek predecessors - is designed to be a DOOMED hero, not what people perceive as hero, today.
I liked the idea of zendaya's character having more agency and that she was pissed off at Paul marrying the princes but zendaya never seemed mature enough to sell me on the fact that she's grown up in the desert and isn’t stuck in a perpetual state of being an American gamer girl.
I didn't mind the agency. I absolutely detested the fact that she was anti prophecy. It just makes no sense that Paul would fulfill every single prophecised thing. In fact they changed the story so that Chani is now part of the prophecy through "Siyaha" (Paul's petname for Chani. In the movie it's her actual name and it's tied to the prophecy). Doing the "tears of the desert flower" thing during Paul's water of life coma. But she STILL doesn't believe? Bro Richard Dawkins would be on his hands and knees crying "Lisan Al Gaib!!" at that point lol. It's also tarded that she already knows that the prophecy is from offworld and not native to Arrakis.
My impression from the books (didn't see the films) was that Chani understood his marriage to the Princess was political, for the control of Dune and the preservation of her people, but *she* was his wife, the woman he loved, who would bear his children. Her being angry doesn't really make sense to me. She won.
@@TheAdarkerglow Agree. It seems it would be more a Fremen take to be practical about it and not 'romantic' instead. Paul and the Fremen need the marriage to survive, both literally and as a movement, and no slight inconvenience of a hollow title while she held the actual intimacy would get in the way.
I've only seen the movie but in pt 1 Jessica played the mentor to Paul, which could have been a feminist lens because how often do we see boys being trained by wise old women instead of wise old men? But then we lost that in pt 2 when Jessica's job turned into "Speaker of the Fetus"
Jessica mentored her son because her order purposefully historically put themselves in that role, so that they can manipulate the empire and its houses from the shadows.
13:37 If Paul went off into the deep desert with Chani to ‘just live his life,’ he’d be looking over his shoulder constantly because it would be a matter of time before he was found out as Paul Atreides and killed. With Rabban gone and Feyd in control of Arrakis, it would be a matter of time before the Fremen were hunted to extinction. The Harkonnens would find out that the last Atreides were alive in the desert, and Paul would be hunted for the rest of his days. If Paul just stayed with the Fremen, there’s only one option: keep fighting, which would continue to radicalize the Fremen and bring more followers to Muad’Dib’s side. He can’t just lay low with the Fremen because he is a Fremen now, and Fremen men are supposed to provide for themselves and their families. Anyone who can’t do that is killed or thrown into the desert (like in Dune Messiah). The whole point of Paul fantasizing about running away is to show the reader that it’s not a possibility. Even if there’s a slight chance it’d work, and he and his family could live to a ripe old age, he’s still an Atreides like his father and (more importantly) grandfather; they would rather face down a charging bull than run for safety. Through Paul’s internal dialogue and prescient visions, we know that Paul wants to stay alive first and foremost, but a close second is revenge on the Harkonnens for killing his father. The surefire way to prevent jihad from happening is if Paul had accepted death at the hands of Jamis. After that, though, the Fremen prophecy has already been fulfilled-at least to modern Fremen specifications. The Fremen are a major cause of the jihad that wasn’t touched on at all in the film. They’ve been pilgrims, prisoners, and prey throughout the galaxy for thousands of years. They’re looking for someone that will lead them to salvation. Once that person comes, they want to share the good word Muad’Dib with everyone, and anyone against that is an enemy fit for death. The Jihad wasn’t a war against noble houses fighting back the rightful Atreides heir who survived a secret massacre orchestrated by the Emperor (it makes no sense that the noble houses don’t honor his claim in the movie); it was a holy war that’s purpose was to spread the new religion of the Lisan al Gaib across the galaxy. Kind of like what the first Islamic jihad was about.
I just started to listen to this Podcast. I respect the opinions and the views of the hosts of the show. I bought Dune the book I think a tear or so before the first movie was released. Beautiful book cover and everything. Besides that… I for the life of me could not get into this book. I would read a few pages and fall asleep nearly instantly. So I listened to the Aubile book. And could not begin to tell you what I had listened to. My mind could not concentrate on the story at all. There could be a few factors to this. I was born in 1975. Dune was published in 1965. It is quite possible that it may not transfer to other generations. It is possible that it is more of a metaphoric story. Writers in the 60’s and 70’s had written a lot in code form. Music is a big outlet for symbolic meanings. And there are stories that will be timeless no matter what. Dune is a timeless book for millions. I get that and understand that. I'm one who could not care less for political struggles in other worlds, or on Earth. So why would I want to read a sci-fi story of political upheaval? So, I of course bought the movie. Fell asleep watching the first movie. Dune reminds me of “ Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?” in so many ways. Dry and boring. There isn't anything insightful to any of these books. I am a writer myself. I am not in any way saying that Frank Hubert is a fraud. It's not for me. I do love the discussions and use what I hear on this Podcast on my first novel “Iron Badger.”
This was such a fantastic discussion and I have sooooooo many thoughts but I don't have the time to write my essay (non-dune-bro essay I promise!) right now 😭 I will be back for a second viewing and a proper comment. In the meantime, I make this humble offering to the ever mysterious algorithm.
I am team Florence Pugh's outfits (Especially the worm mask). I think her costuming suffered from a lack of obvious trend/consistency in silhouette/material that might be explained through her being very upper class and having more money/freedom to experiment, but I loved it. I'm sure the details contain more storyline hints than I'm picking up and wish I could go further in-depth
The second movie could have been enjoyable for someone who had never read the book. Visually it's stunning, it has a lot more action than the first but for me, it was too blatant in the way it threw in your face the things that were subtly done in the book. I disliked the way they mocked the fremens' religious fervor and Stilgar became an absolute parody. And if that wasn't enough, they added all the other Chani & co. conversations about how they're smarter and can see that those are only legends. FFS, the whole book was about how knowledge was the most powerful tool and how that could be translated into using religion to manipulate entire civilizations. In the movie, it came off like the fremen were simple-minded people although in reality they had a deep culture and enough wherewithal to survive in brutal conditions, under countless bloody regimes that would have gladly wiped them out. As far as the characters go, I think the movie tried to humanize Paul by showing him wrestle with what he had to do, which is kind of understandable since he came off as arrogant in the book. But at the same time, I don't think he was meant to be likeable on a deep level and he definitely wasn't meant to be relatable. He's supposed to be one of a kind, not only through his prescience, but also his Bene Gesserit and mentat training, so basically a walking computer that can see the future and use his voice to control others. I can't say I liked the movie version of Chani. I appreciated that they showed more of her competence as a fighter, but she was too modern to fit into the story. It's like her own fremen culture had no hold on her and there's no reason for it aside from them wanting to girlboss her. I was glad they didn't try to have Alia kill the Barron. The idea of a 3-year-old fighting is visually hilarious and I can't see a way where that would work. But at the same time I hated how they made Jessica almost insane with her muttering. She was made to look unhinged and I don't see how that added anything to the plot. The Bene Gesserit were a good mix of amazing and scary. Personally, I didn't see it as sexist and I think when judging a piece of writing from the 60s, you can't expect it to abide by modern sensibilities. Of course, I understand why it wouldn't be to everyone's taste but I thought Herbert gave them agency in the story by having them be the masterminds behind everything. In my opinion, he was trying to make a point about the power of knowing one's history because that was their most powerful tool beyond the Voice and control of bodily functions. The fact that they can look back in time and KNOW history, not just what was recorded, but have first hand memories of it was what allowed them to strategize and see patterns. And their breeding program in a way took back control for women in a world where they weren't afforded power (but also manipulated them, so it's a mixed bag that can be discussed at length). About the reason Paul didn't step back to prevent the holy war, to my understanding it was past the point where that could happen. After he drinks the water of life he can finally see all the possibilities in front of them and he also sees that humanity is heading for its demise. More of that gets explored in Children of Dune and God-Emperor of Dune, but there's also something about how having prescient abilities locks the future in, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't know if this long-ass comment makes me a "Dune bro" who's trying to be sophisticated, I just had a bunch of thoughts. Your conversation over it was very interesting and Maria was right in your first Dune video that the prose is lacking. I recently re-read the series in English and I can see her point.
As Will mentioned, the obesity in the book is used as a sign of moral depravity, that the Baron is indulgent to his passions, same as his sexual behaviour is a sign of indulgence and also his corrupt power. It comes from a moral standpoint, maybe even a protestant ethic, where the good guys are upstanding, honest, spartan, frugal and the bad guys are corrupt, indulgent, slaves of their passions. Of course, this is not necessarily an ethical framework that is considered valid anymore. In addition, one can view this as orientalist, in the way some westerners viewed the eastern dynast, effete, fat, overdressed, having his harem of girls and boys etc, while the moral westerner is a stern, frugal, hardened, etc. You can add this to a potential problematic of this visualisation. Therefore, is this problematic? Yes, I think it is, it is probably representative of the author's biases but also of societal biases when it was written, while a lot of these biases have been challenged in the years since then. However, I think it was used in order to simplify the moral coding of the novel a bit for the average reader. And don't forget that there is a counterpoint to the Baron, with young Feyd-Rautha being slim and fit but equally vile in his own psychopathic way.
I actually devoted a section of my review/analysis of the Chronicles of Dune to the 'feminism/sexism' question... Eh, so, I definitely don't think the series is feminist (which I've seen some readers argue online lmao). But I don't think it's misogynistic either. Sexist? Eh, yes and no. More no before God Emperor of Dune, more yes from the point of and after God Emperor of Dune - I mean the schtick with the Honoured Matres was, quite frankly, cringe as fuck. And God Emperor of Dune itself... hoooo boy there are very weird/questionable bits in there with regards to gender essentialism and homosexuality, eek. And like... it would be incredibly reductive to say the Bene Gesserit are blanket statement 'evil' (most of Dune's characters are varying shades of grey, morally speaking, tbh), but they're not exactly 'good' either, lmao, especially once again if taking all 6 Frank Herbert books into account. They are, however, incredibly, but subtly powerful; I mean them bishes not only survive/last throughout the entire series, over thousands upon thousands of years, they basically carry out a MASSIVE eugenics programme over those same thousands upon thousands of years (though that gets into the fucked genetics of the series, which is a whole other kettle of fish lol). The thing is: I don't really know how much one can ultimately pull from the Bene Gesserit in terms of 'female representation', because they eventually kinda start to cease to be human? I mean that's what some Bene Gesserit characters state, themselves, in the series' later books. They're also strongly encouraged to NOT feel love or attachment (in no small part because of Jessica's fuck-up), of any kind, which further cuts them off from the rest of female humanity.
Yeah. The BGs are stereotypically *male* even within their own ranks, leading to the questioning of how well they represent the *female*. They are authoritarian. They isolate knowledge and use it as power currency. They don't even compartmentalize their emotions; they eschew them. They strategize from the head vs the heart. In some sense the HMs are *more* feminine, although they're presented as more masculine (because they're more direct). They use what they have: while interactions are basically sexual they are guided by intelligence; the former is all the male-dominated feudal society will grant them, while the latter is forgotten by the same culture. Notice how the intelligence struggles to poke through the blatant sexuality in the HMs actions much as each HM (and woman) must struggle to remember they are more than their bodies in cultures such as this.
The thing I really enjoy about this channel is that you all have a variety of takes and I agree with each of you to varying degrees. I never thought of the Benne Gesserat(?) as sexist depictions of women because, unlike ASOIAF there is no Winterfell standin, in Dune everyone kinda sucks, but I would agree that Hubert's portrayal of women as either mothers, lovers, or witches combined with the fact that there's only one avenue of female power (the ultimate power except if any random male by-blow gets their power) and it's a soft power was sexist. I do hope that in the third movie Chani confronts Paul over choosing a jihad for his vanity/glory instead of giving the Fremen the option to choose their watery paradise. I think Feyd Rautha was created as a skewed mirror for Paul. They're both these manufactured idols, we learn that Feyd only fights drugged prisoners in the arenas, guaranteeing defeat, and Paul isn't, or shouldn't be, the ultimate badass everyone hypes him up to be. Both Duncan Idaho and Gurney were better fighters and Stilgar's faith blinds him to any faults he might have. My major problem with the movie, and the book to an extent, is the portrayal of white people being better at [thing] than the people who have been studying said thing for their entire lives, a la The Last Samurai. In the books Duncan highly respects the Fremen for their fighting prowess yet Paul was able to easily kill Jaimais. We really should've seen Paul struggle/fail to do things the Freeman way instead of being the best boi at every new task. And sidenote: Lovecraft wasn't weird about race, he was an outright white supremacist/racist. He had a massive inferiority complex regarding Black people, and denegrated us at every turn.
I think im unfamiliar with the term soft power, but maybe youre talking about in the movie specifically, because the movies didn't depict the bene gesserit as badass as they really were. But they dont just have the voice, which basically is able to influence people to practically a mind control effect. But they also have such a complete control over their bodies they can manipulate every bodily process, and they can fight at supernatural levels. Like, in a shielded fight, duncan or gurney might beat jessica. But in a fight like on arrakis, where shields arent usable jessica could absolutely DESTROY people without bene Gesserit training. Shes basically supernaturally fast, strong, accurate, with mental powers almost as effective as a mentat in terms of analyzing people and getting insight to them. This seems very much a "hard power" to me
Paul was trained by a Mentat, a Swordmaster AND a Bene Gesserit from just about when he could walk. Is it really that difficult to believe that he is better trained than a random Fremen?
@@nathangriswold6999 Soft power is using relationships and positions of some kind and influence to influence events. Like the bene gesserits marrying into royal families to manipulate not that visible but really influencal due, yeah wives wiould have a power in royal families as wife and mother. Or like idols or influencer would use soft power with relationships over fans, using perceptions, pr is often using soft power parasocial. I think its using too emotionality and connections, an obvious would be a first lady like michelle obama or any influencer, Dunno wil maria and kady have probably soft power to a degree. i guess in a niche? Which they use to promote indie authors? And authors they like?! The voice is i think in the movie just magic symbolizing the power of words. Hardpower would be any form of violence even the treat of it , i think.
I found it a pitty that the sharing of the Water of Life was not shown in the movie, because it makes so much clear that the Fremen religion is much deeper than a believe in some prophesies, but there is kind of sharing which kind of similar to a mixture of pentacostal church service and a music concert where people are using psichadelic drugs. I understand that it does not fit in the narrative of there being division among the (southern and northern) Fremen.
Bro I can't believe I was excited for Walken to be the emperor ... it was the absolute worst lol. The Emperor came straight outta New Yawk. I thought Irulan was poorly cast as well tbh. The best casting of Irulan ever was the girl in the 1984 movie. The blonde hair, tall, regal posture, the bright green eyes. She was perfect. And I'm not the biggest fan of Zendaya's acting in this one. Much, much less with what they've done to her character. But, I feel like appearance wise, she's a really good casting. Frank describes Chani as "elven faced" multiple times. Which I feel like fits pretty well with her face and slender figure. But I intenensely disliked the scene where she's all girlbossing with her other girlboss' and the black bro's who have 2024 hollywood haircuts, screaming "The prophecy is a lie!!" while Stilgar and his middle eastern looking bearded bro's were yelling "Paul is the Lisan Al-Gaib!!". It felt like a scene that a nepo baby sociology student would write "Only these cis, straight, brown men believe in this prophecy bs. The hip and cool girlbosses and people of *more* color, are too cool for it!" I hated the whole divide between north and south because it makes no sense in so many ways. Esp after they also tied the water basins into the prophecy and removed Liet Kynes' role in the terraforming dream. At that point why would the young people stand for some religious zealot from the south to rule them? Obviously there are non believers and doubters among the Fremen. But divided by geography? LOL .. come on now
My man called cyberpunk / vaporwave lighting "bi-sexual" .. if I was a bit more insecure I'd have to change my colors up lol. Homie made up for it by saying "justice for Joy" and putting his fist up.
I guess the bene gesserit could be eased more in and first shown as a shadowy powerful group, and ease in the eugenics,, but its cool, its nice to have often crowns and women seen as witchy , and the soft power giving them a lot influence, and their flaws as organoisation, are great. Its great women are shown as schemer that use soft power, well. Through showing them as people too , might be, good for dune And yeah irulan could have other interests, her using her position to do what she wants as laverage, cool, but yeah, just have women other interest too?
To me the two movies are so meh , I don't say they are completely trash but a lot of things in the movie piss me of, but i fell so rushed, the filling of "wow this movie should be longer" make it fell more real like this people are really living it, cut some things and put this in a nother movie
"Marvelization" absolutely perfectly way to describe it Part 2. This was the most mainstream, sold out thing I've ever seen Villeneuve do and it actually really disappointed me lmao. He's great visually as a director, 100% 10/10 Visuals... but 4/10 Story for me. Part 3 sadly I think is gonna be even worse and honestly... an evil retarded part of me wants it to fail to teach Villeneuve a lesson for what he did with part 2.
"you have to kill your god to get your paradise" HEY ARE WE KIDDING??????? gonna be thinking about this one
Because I think this is relevant-Eugenics: "The study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable."
Yeah I face these concepts a lot in my daily life as a disabled person in the form of ableism , eugenics isn’t only about race thank you
CHOAM is a trading company, Spacing Guild is separate although they rely upon each other
Frank didn't wrote Messiah because people misunderstood Paul. The first three of the books were already written as one, and it was due to editorial request that he went back and rewrote them as three separate pieces. See: his interview at UCLA in 1985. There was never this hurried "Oh no, people don't get my book" that's just condescending, as Paul - based on his Greek predecessors - is designed to be a DOOMED hero, not what people perceive as hero, today.
Have I watched or read dune? No. But I'll watch the shit out of this.
I liked the idea of zendaya's character having more agency and that she was pissed off at Paul marrying the princes but zendaya never seemed mature enough to sell me on the fact that she's grown up in the desert and isn’t stuck in a perpetual state of being an American gamer girl.
I think this felling come from they not using her much in the first movie
Comments like this are why everyone collectively hates your generation. What a stupid take.
I didn't mind the agency. I absolutely detested the fact that she was anti prophecy. It just makes no sense that Paul would fulfill every single prophecised thing. In fact they changed the story so that Chani is now part of the prophecy through "Siyaha" (Paul's petname for Chani. In the movie it's her actual name and it's tied to the prophecy). Doing the "tears of the desert flower" thing during Paul's water of life coma. But she STILL doesn't believe? Bro Richard Dawkins would be on his hands and knees crying "Lisan Al Gaib!!" at that point lol. It's also tarded that she already knows that the prophecy is from offworld and not native to Arrakis.
My impression from the books (didn't see the films) was that Chani understood his marriage to the Princess was political, for the control of Dune and the preservation of her people, but *she* was his wife, the woman he loved, who would bear his children. Her being angry doesn't really make sense to me. She won.
@@TheAdarkerglow Agree. It seems it would be more a Fremen take to be practical about it and not 'romantic' instead. Paul and the Fremen need the marriage to survive, both literally and as a movement, and no slight inconvenience of a hollow title while she held the actual intimacy would get in the way.
I've only seen the movie but in pt 1 Jessica played the mentor to Paul, which could have been a feminist lens because how often do we see boys being trained by wise old women instead of wise old men? But then we lost that in pt 2 when Jessica's job turned into "Speaker of the Fetus"
Jessica mentored her son because her order purposefully historically put themselves in that role, so that they can manipulate the empire and its houses from the shadows.
13:37
If Paul went off into the deep desert with Chani to ‘just live his life,’ he’d be looking over his shoulder constantly because it would be a matter of time before he was found out as Paul Atreides and killed. With Rabban gone and Feyd in control of Arrakis, it would be a matter of time before the Fremen were hunted to extinction. The Harkonnens would find out that the last Atreides were alive in the desert, and Paul would be hunted for the rest of his days.
If Paul just stayed with the Fremen, there’s only one option: keep fighting, which would continue to radicalize the Fremen and bring more followers to Muad’Dib’s side. He can’t just lay low with the Fremen because he is a Fremen now, and Fremen men are supposed to provide for themselves and their families. Anyone who can’t do that is killed or thrown into the desert (like in Dune Messiah).
The whole point of Paul fantasizing about running away is to show the reader that it’s not a possibility. Even if there’s a slight chance it’d work, and he and his family could live to a ripe old age, he’s still an Atreides like his father and (more importantly) grandfather; they would rather face down a charging bull than run for safety.
Through Paul’s internal dialogue and prescient visions, we know that Paul wants to stay alive first and foremost, but a close second is revenge on the Harkonnens for killing his father. The surefire way to prevent jihad from happening is if Paul had accepted death at the hands of Jamis. After that, though, the Fremen prophecy has already been fulfilled-at least to modern Fremen specifications.
The Fremen are a major cause of the jihad that wasn’t touched on at all in the film. They’ve been pilgrims, prisoners, and prey throughout the galaxy for thousands of years. They’re looking for someone that will lead them to salvation. Once that person comes, they want to share the good word Muad’Dib with everyone, and anyone against that is an enemy fit for death.
The Jihad wasn’t a war against noble houses fighting back the rightful Atreides heir who survived a secret massacre orchestrated by the Emperor (it makes no sense that the noble houses don’t honor his claim in the movie); it was a holy war that’s purpose was to spread the new religion of the Lisan al Gaib across the galaxy. Kind of like what the first Islamic jihad was about.
Me watching this without watching any of the movies or reading any of the books 😣 but still enjoying your analysis 😂
blue screen reflecting on glasses , spooky.
I just started to listen to this Podcast. I respect the opinions and the views of the hosts of the show.
I bought Dune the book I think a tear or so before the first movie was released. Beautiful book cover and everything. Besides that… I for the life of me could not get into this book. I would read a few pages and fall asleep nearly instantly. So I listened to the Aubile book. And could not begin to tell you what I had listened to. My mind could not concentrate on the story at all.
There could be a few factors to this. I was born in 1975. Dune was published in 1965. It is quite possible that it may not transfer to other generations. It is possible that it is more of a metaphoric story.
Writers in the 60’s and 70’s had written a lot in code form. Music is a big outlet for symbolic meanings. And there are stories that will be timeless no matter what.
Dune is a timeless book for millions. I get that and understand that. I'm one who could not care less for political struggles in other worlds, or on Earth. So why would I want to read a sci-fi story of political upheaval?
So, I of course bought the movie. Fell asleep watching the first movie.
Dune reminds me of “ Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?” in so many ways. Dry and boring. There isn't anything insightful to any of these books.
I am a writer myself. I am not in any way saying that Frank Hubert is a fraud. It's not for me.
I do love the discussions and use what I hear on this Podcast on my first novel “Iron Badger.”
This was such a fantastic discussion and I have sooooooo many thoughts but I don't have the time to write my essay (non-dune-bro essay I promise!) right now 😭 I will be back for a second viewing and a proper comment. In the meantime, I make this humble offering to the ever mysterious algorithm.
I am team Florence Pugh's outfits (Especially the worm mask). I think her costuming suffered from a lack of obvious trend/consistency in silhouette/material that might be explained through her being very upper class and having more money/freedom to experiment, but I loved it. I'm sure the details contain more storyline hints than I'm picking up and wish I could go further in-depth
Really great discussion, I especially liked the deep dive into feminism
The second movie could have been enjoyable for someone who had never read the book. Visually it's stunning, it has a lot more action than the first but for me, it was too blatant in the way it threw in your face the things that were subtly done in the book. I disliked the way they mocked the fremens' religious fervor and Stilgar became an absolute parody. And if that wasn't enough, they added all the other Chani & co. conversations about how they're smarter and can see that those are only legends. FFS, the whole book was about how knowledge was the most powerful tool and how that could be translated into using religion to manipulate entire civilizations. In the movie, it came off like the fremen were simple-minded people although in reality they had a deep culture and enough wherewithal to survive in brutal conditions, under countless bloody regimes that would have gladly wiped them out.
As far as the characters go, I think the movie tried to humanize Paul by showing him wrestle with what he had to do, which is kind of understandable since he came off as arrogant in the book. But at the same time, I don't think he was meant to be likeable on a deep level and he definitely wasn't meant to be relatable. He's supposed to be one of a kind, not only through his prescience, but also his Bene Gesserit and mentat training, so basically a walking computer that can see the future and use his voice to control others.
I can't say I liked the movie version of Chani. I appreciated that they showed more of her competence as a fighter, but she was too modern to fit into the story. It's like her own fremen culture had no hold on her and there's no reason for it aside from them wanting to girlboss her.
I was glad they didn't try to have Alia kill the Barron. The idea of a 3-year-old fighting is visually hilarious and I can't see a way where that would work. But at the same time I hated how they made Jessica almost insane with her muttering. She was made to look unhinged and I don't see how that added anything to the plot.
The Bene Gesserit were a good mix of amazing and scary. Personally, I didn't see it as sexist and I think when judging a piece of writing from the 60s, you can't expect it to abide by modern sensibilities. Of course, I understand why it wouldn't be to everyone's taste but I thought Herbert gave them agency in the story by having them be the masterminds behind everything. In my opinion, he was trying to make a point about the power of knowing one's history because that was their most powerful tool beyond the Voice and control of bodily functions. The fact that they can look back in time and KNOW history, not just what was recorded, but have first hand memories of it was what allowed them to strategize and see patterns. And their breeding program in a way took back control for women in a world where they weren't afforded power (but also manipulated them, so it's a mixed bag that can be discussed at length).
About the reason Paul didn't step back to prevent the holy war, to my understanding it was past the point where that could happen. After he drinks the water of life he can finally see all the possibilities in front of them and he also sees that humanity is heading for its demise. More of that gets explored in Children of Dune and God-Emperor of Dune, but there's also something about how having prescient abilities locks the future in, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I don't know if this long-ass comment makes me a "Dune bro" who's trying to be sophisticated, I just had a bunch of thoughts. Your conversation over it was very interesting and Maria was right in your first Dune video that the prose is lacking. I recently re-read the series in English and I can see her point.
No thoughts, only Maria's Bob™.
As Will mentioned, the obesity in the book is used as a sign of moral depravity, that the Baron is indulgent to his passions, same as his sexual behaviour is a sign of indulgence and also his corrupt power. It comes from a moral standpoint, maybe even a protestant ethic, where the good guys are upstanding, honest, spartan, frugal and the bad guys are corrupt, indulgent, slaves of their passions. Of course, this is not necessarily an ethical framework that is considered valid anymore. In addition, one can view this as orientalist, in the way some westerners viewed the eastern dynast, effete, fat, overdressed, having his harem of girls and boys etc, while the moral westerner is a stern, frugal, hardened, etc. You can add this to a potential problematic of this visualisation.
Therefore, is this problematic? Yes, I think it is, it is probably representative of the author's biases but also of societal biases when it was written, while a lot of these biases have been challenged in the years since then. However, I think it was used in order to simplify the moral coding of the novel a bit for the average reader. And don't forget that there is a counterpoint to the Baron, with young Feyd-Rautha being slim and fit but equally vile in his own psychopathic way.
"I Stan the baron," lmao. I feel so validated, I felt like I was the only person who didn't like this movie :(.
I actually devoted a section of my review/analysis of the Chronicles of Dune to the 'feminism/sexism' question... Eh, so, I definitely don't think the series is feminist (which I've seen some readers argue online lmao). But I don't think it's misogynistic either. Sexist? Eh, yes and no. More no before God Emperor of Dune, more yes from the point of and after God Emperor of Dune - I mean the schtick with the Honoured Matres was, quite frankly, cringe as fuck. And God Emperor of Dune itself... hoooo boy there are very weird/questionable bits in there with regards to gender essentialism and homosexuality, eek.
And like... it would be incredibly reductive to say the Bene Gesserit are blanket statement 'evil' (most of Dune's characters are varying shades of grey, morally speaking, tbh), but they're not exactly 'good' either, lmao, especially once again if taking all 6 Frank Herbert books into account. They are, however, incredibly, but subtly powerful; I mean them bishes not only survive/last throughout the entire series, over thousands upon thousands of years, they basically carry out a MASSIVE eugenics programme over those same thousands upon thousands of years (though that gets into the fucked genetics of the series, which is a whole other kettle of fish lol).
The thing is: I don't really know how much one can ultimately pull from the Bene Gesserit in terms of 'female representation', because they eventually kinda start to cease to be human? I mean that's what some Bene Gesserit characters state, themselves, in the series' later books. They're also strongly encouraged to NOT feel love or attachment (in no small part because of Jessica's fuck-up), of any kind, which further cuts them off from the rest of female humanity.
Yeah. The BGs are stereotypically *male* even within their own ranks, leading to the questioning of how well they represent the *female*. They are authoritarian. They isolate knowledge and use it as power currency. They don't even compartmentalize their emotions; they eschew them. They strategize from the head vs the heart.
In some sense the HMs are *more* feminine, although they're presented as more masculine (because they're more direct). They use what they have: while interactions are basically sexual they are guided by intelligence; the former is all the male-dominated feudal society will grant them, while the latter is forgotten by the same culture. Notice how the intelligence struggles to poke through the blatant sexuality in the HMs actions much as each HM (and woman) must struggle to remember they are more than their bodies in cultures such as this.
the children of dune movies are pretty good, perfect leto, james mcavoywould have made a good god emporer
The thing I really enjoy about this channel is that you all have a variety of takes and I agree with each of you to varying degrees. I never thought of the Benne Gesserat(?) as sexist depictions of women because, unlike ASOIAF there is no Winterfell standin, in Dune everyone kinda sucks, but I would agree that Hubert's portrayal of women as either mothers, lovers, or witches combined with the fact that there's only one avenue of female power (the ultimate power except if any random male by-blow gets their power) and it's a soft power was sexist. I do hope that in the third movie Chani confronts Paul over choosing a jihad for his vanity/glory instead of giving the Fremen the option to choose their watery paradise.
I think Feyd Rautha was created as a skewed mirror for Paul. They're both these manufactured idols, we learn that Feyd only fights drugged prisoners in the arenas, guaranteeing defeat, and Paul isn't, or shouldn't be, the ultimate badass everyone hypes him up to be. Both Duncan Idaho and Gurney were better fighters and Stilgar's faith blinds him to any faults he might have.
My major problem with the movie, and the book to an extent, is the portrayal of white people being better at [thing] than the people who have been studying said thing for their entire lives, a la The Last Samurai. In the books Duncan highly respects the Fremen for their fighting prowess yet Paul was able to easily kill Jaimais. We really should've seen Paul struggle/fail to do things the Freeman way instead of being the best boi at every new task.
And sidenote: Lovecraft wasn't weird about race, he was an outright white supremacist/racist. He had a massive inferiority complex regarding Black people, and denegrated us at every turn.
I think im unfamiliar with the term soft power, but maybe youre talking about in the movie specifically, because the movies didn't depict the bene gesserit as badass as they really were.
But they dont just have the voice, which basically is able to influence people to practically a mind control effect.
But they also have such a complete control over their bodies they can manipulate every bodily process, and they can fight at supernatural levels. Like, in a shielded fight, duncan or gurney might beat jessica. But in a fight like on arrakis, where shields arent usable jessica could absolutely DESTROY people without bene Gesserit training. Shes basically supernaturally fast, strong, accurate, with mental powers almost as effective as a mentat in terms of analyzing people and getting insight to them.
This seems very much a "hard power" to me
Oh, he he was a raging racist shit -kt
Paul was trained by a Mentat, a Swordmaster AND a Bene Gesserit from just about when he could walk. Is it really that difficult to believe that he is better trained than a random Fremen?
weird fits him way better, i mean good he channeled his phobias into art at least?!
@@nathangriswold6999 Soft power is using relationships and positions of some kind and influence to influence events.
Like the bene gesserits marrying into royal families to manipulate not that visible but really influencal due, yeah wives wiould have a power in royal families as wife and mother.
Or like idols or influencer would use soft power with relationships over fans, using perceptions, pr is often using soft power parasocial.
I think its using too emotionality and connections, an obvious would be a first lady like michelle obama or any influencer,
Dunno wil maria and kady have probably soft power to a degree. i guess in a niche? Which they use to promote indie authors? And authors they like?!
The voice is i think in the movie just magic symbolizing the power of words.
Hardpower would be any form of violence even the treat of it , i think.
I found it a pitty that the sharing of the Water of Life was not shown in the movie, because it makes so much clear that the Fremen religion is much deeper than a believe in some prophesies, but there is kind of sharing which kind of similar to a mixture of pentacostal church service and a music concert where people are using psichadelic drugs.
I understand that it does not fit in the narrative of there being division among the (southern and northern) Fremen.
Bro I can't believe I was excited for Walken to be the emperor ... it was the absolute worst lol. The Emperor came straight outta New Yawk. I thought Irulan was poorly cast as well tbh. The best casting of Irulan ever was the girl in the 1984 movie. The blonde hair, tall, regal posture, the bright green eyes. She was perfect. And I'm not the biggest fan of Zendaya's acting in this one. Much, much less with what they've done to her character. But, I feel like appearance wise, she's a really good casting. Frank describes Chani as "elven faced" multiple times. Which I feel like fits pretty well with her face and slender figure. But I intenensely disliked the scene where she's all girlbossing with her other girlboss' and the black bro's who have 2024 hollywood haircuts, screaming "The prophecy is a lie!!" while Stilgar and his middle eastern looking bearded bro's were yelling "Paul is the Lisan Al-Gaib!!". It felt like a scene that a nepo baby sociology student would write "Only these cis, straight, brown men believe in this prophecy bs. The hip and cool girlbosses and people of *more* color, are too cool for it!" I hated the whole divide between north and south because it makes no sense in so many ways. Esp after they also tied the water basins into the prophecy and removed Liet Kynes' role in the terraforming dream. At that point why would the young people stand for some religious zealot from the south to rule them? Obviously there are non believers and doubters among the Fremen. But divided by geography? LOL .. come on now
My man called cyberpunk / vaporwave lighting "bi-sexual" .. if I was a bit more insecure I'd have to change my colors up lol. Homie made up for it by saying "justice for Joy" and putting his fist up.
I guess the bene gesserit could be eased more in and first shown as a shadowy powerful group, and ease in the eugenics,,
but its cool, its nice to have often crowns and women seen as witchy , and the soft power giving them a lot influence, and their flaws as organoisation, are great. Its great women are shown as schemer that use soft power, well. Through showing them as people too , might be, good for dune
And yeah irulan could have other interests, her using her position to do what she wants as laverage, cool, but yeah, just have women other interest too?
To me the two movies are so meh , I don't say they are completely trash but a lot of things in the movie piss me of, but i fell so rushed, the filling of "wow this movie should be longer" make it fell more real like this people are really living it, cut some things and put this in a nother movie
"Marvelization" absolutely perfectly way to describe it Part 2. This was the most mainstream, sold out thing I've ever seen Villeneuve do and it actually really disappointed me lmao. He's great visually as a director, 100% 10/10 Visuals... but 4/10 Story for me. Part 3 sadly I think is gonna be even worse and honestly... an evil retarded part of me wants it to fail to teach Villeneuve a lesson for what he did with part 2.