Thanks so much. This poem really is a journey that we all can take, sometimes maybe by yourself, but always great having others with you. Everyone can point out things in the landscape that you hadn’t noticed before.
Good day, Tom. This morning I read Guillem March's "Karmen." Spanish graphic novel (I'd ordered it weeks ago and it finally arrived). There were moments that made me think about Francesca and Paolo and how the lustful were punished in Inferno, but also about Purgatory and the role of repentance. Listening to your discussion this evening reminded me of it. Karmen a beautiful story with an equally beautiful ending. Canto 3 and 4 are rather difficult, yet life affirming canto's (which Catalina in "Karmen," if she read them, would understand). Dante makes us feel for Virgil and the others in limbo, who through no fault of their own, "failed to see all" and can never join Dante in his final ascent. Masterfully rendered. I was surprised by how much Canto 4 in my copy was underlined. It's been years since I looked at it. "When Any of our faculties retains a strong impression of delight or pain, the soul will wholly concentrate on that, neglecting any other power it has...and thus when something seen or heard secures the soul in stringent grip, time moves and ye we do not notice it. The power that perceives the course of time is not the power that captures all the mind; the former has no force-the latter binds." Is there no better truth expressed than that? Dante is gripped by his love for Beatrice, blinding him to anything else, and worse, possibly loving her more than God, preventing him to move on with his life. There are many passages like this in Purgatory. I've often wondered if there isn't some kind of clinical therapy based on the Divine Comedy. Dante's first smile...now there would be a great way to begin a therapy session. "What led to it? Let's us begin at the beginning." Did you ever read Alejo Carpentier's "The Lost Steps?" I had noted it in my copy. Chapter 4 is both an odyssey through the Inferno and Purgatory. I think it was intentional. If you're not familiar with it, it's about a writer/musician and his singer wife traveling into the deep recess of the a South American river searching for the original instrument or source of music. There are parts in the book that easily could be from Purgatory or the Inferno: "I fled from the horror, seeking the protection of my lover (his wife, Rosario; which here could be Virgil or possibly Beatrice), I was afraid. The shadows were closing about us in a premature twilight, and we had no sooner prpeared a hasty camp than it was night." Or, "...Rosario, who was cleaning my breakfast utensils with sand, it seemed to me that I was sharing with the thousands of men who lived in the unexplored headwaters of the Great Rivers the primordial sense of beauty, of beauty physically perceived, equal shared by body and spirit, reborn with each rising of the sun. Beauty thus perceived, in such remoteness, brings man the pride of feeling himself the master of the world, the supreme heir of creation." Or, "Alongside the tree ran an overarched channel, so narrow, so low, that it seemed impossible to me that the canoe could enter it. And yet our boat managed to make its way through this tunnel, with so little room to spare its sides grated against the gnarled roots. " And finally, back to T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland, where the narrator of that apocalyptic poem says, "Unreal City...I had not thought death had undone so many." Although it was originally referenced in Inferno, this variation in Purgatory, " Siena made-Maremma unmade-me" yet against confirms the influence The Divine Comedy had on Eliot.
I really do feel like we should sit down one day with a couple of good cigars and your drink of choice, and have an endless chat about Dante, comics, books, literature, and anything else! Just let me know whenever you happen to travel to L.A. In any case, these are very thoughtful comments. Thank you for all the references, that I will find the time to check out. As for a psychoanalytical approach to Dante (or the Divine Comedy AS psychoanalysis), that’s such an interesting angle and if you look on youtube for the comedy videos by Mark Vernon, I think he is a psychiatrist and he brings that approach to each of his canto-by-canto comments. Dante’s love for Beatrice remains a mystery to me, because even if he DID love her, and even if she DID trigger his first experience of love, by the time of his journey Dante has technically “moved on” from her to other women (them also with their symbolic meanings, like Lady Philosophy). He writes all about this in his Convivio, and that’s why in the final cantos of Purgatorio he gets The Scolding Of A Lifetime by Beatrice. I look forward to those cantos!
I found the sense of physical struggle particularly powerful and appropriate in this canto. As a hillwalking enthusiast I recognised the relief of a pause to rest and the cheering impact of looking back at how far you have come. On the other hand the bits about the sun and hemispheres always confuse me.
You and me both! Dante’s geography is fascinating and one can dig deep into it, as we do have all the information we need to understand his contemporary astronomy, but it’s just not the most interesting part of his poem for me.
It has been the same with me, as I made progress in the spiritual life, my smile progressed too. I could say that I am learning to smile in a new way. :D
I'm really enjoying Purgatory...that sounds odd doesn't it.... but the emergence of Dante's smile symbolises the joy and hope that seems to be running in seams through the rock of this mountain .. and the humour is affectionate ....the opening lines of this canto are so profound too, I am definitely able to loose time like that, to the frustration of those around me ...!
Bitte sehr! If you are interested, I’m also doing a series about the Comedy in Italian, you can find it in my playlists. So far I’ve uploaded only the first 7 cantos of Inferno, but youtube automatically provides English cc’s and it might be useful.
@@tomlabooks3263 I will definitely check that out! This kind of content is really helpful to everyone who's studying Italian or literature in general. I will recommend your videos for sure :)
Do you know who did that painting of Dante smiling? I have never seen that before. Really great remarks on topic four. I really need to remember to take a rest every now and then. These last two weeks have been nothing but constant work, and feeling the burnout now. Dante firing back at Aristotle and Belacqua at the same time! haha. I can see Dante being quick on his feet. 🤣
Same here, my friend (about constant work in the last weeks). I guess some of that urgency transpired in my video! But I have a lovely break coming up soon, and it’s gonna be awesome 😎 No phone, only 5 books 📚. I hope you can get some rest soon, too. Edit: the artist who drew that smiling Dante is Gabriele dell’Otto. He is phenomenal.
@@tomlabooks3263 that is great to hear, five books and no phone is a need sometimes. I decided to take the next two days off, just not doing anything. That is why it took me so long to finally get to these last two Cantos, I need to actually sit down and pay attention to them and not just have them run in the background like so many other videos on this platform 😅 but it is always good to finally do so. I will look up Dell'Otto now! Thanks! 😊
@@attention5638 Dell’Otto has published all of his Comedy paintings for Inferno and Purgatorio on his personal website. Cheers 🥂 to our days of vital rest and imprescindibile relaxation.
Thanks for another great episode! Just one thought about the astronomy and sun going the "wrong way", it struck me as interesting in the sense of "massaging" in the idea of full re-orientation, and "metanoia"/repentance. One might need to re-construct the entire outlook, perhaps at a very big scale, as part of the process of learning. And it has a little bit of the confusing feeling after climbing up/down on Lucifer in Inferno 34. Kind of an "echo".
That’s a really excellent point. I love that term “metanoia”. The sense of a full revolution of your heart that’s typically involved in a conversion. That sense of “are we going up or down? Left or right?” is perfect to symbolize the scale of a full re-orientation of your life.
It is something very noticeable the disposition of these souls, absolutely and naturally different from those in Inferno. They recognise their sins and the necessity of purging them. They’re also very charitable.
Perfect, as usual, Tom. Thank you! Also wanted to share with you that I have just finished a biography of Dorothy L. Sayers (by Dr. Barbara Reynolds who was her BFF!) The last chapter is titled Gaudium which covers the last 14 years of her life that she devoted to Dante. Dr. Reynolds wrote a complete book (which I have ordered) on this subject called The Passionate Intellect: Dorothy L. Sayers' Encounter with Dante. So many changes occurred after she wrote for the BBC regarding how Dante was presented. So interesting how a man from 1307 changed the thoughts and writings in 1943 and forward. I was very interested in her thoughts that eventually went into the forward of the Penguin series. If you would like to have my book will be happy to send it to you. It also covers her time inventing Lord Peter Wimsey. Thanks again for todays thoughts, much appreciated!!
Wow first of all thank you for your very kind offer! I would love to read The Passionate Intellect, sounds like a book that I would enjoy very much. I need to be pragmatic and realize that I have so many books to read this year (!) but that’s a title that I will look out for. Thanks for your thoughts, great to see your passion for Dante AND for people who have a passion for Dante : )
@@tomlabooks3263 Oh My !! I just found something else of interest. The Figure Of Beatrice by Charles Williams. Evidentially Dorothy stumbled upon this book and things went on from there between herself, Williams and Oxford. Very good and complete review on Amazon. (and yes, I ordered it, couldn't help myself ! LOL)
_First!_ First "smile" 😁 of Dante's 🤓 "In life he (I e., Belacqua) made God wait Now God makes him wait . . ." -- Ciardi Beatrice is here in this, too: she shall be the final guide. Lots of tarot and astrological stuff: 7/The Chariot, #10/Wheel of Fortune, the Zodiac entirely! The Celestial Equator is an entirely other video. Thanks, Tom!
thank-you tom...youtube's very own virgil to our dante's.
Thanks so much. This poem really is a journey that we all can take, sometimes maybe by yourself, but always great having others with you. Everyone can point out things in the landscape that you hadn’t noticed before.
@@tomlabooks3263 true..
Good day, Tom. This morning I read Guillem March's "Karmen." Spanish graphic novel (I'd ordered it weeks ago and it finally arrived). There were moments that made me think about Francesca and Paolo and how the lustful were punished in Inferno, but also about Purgatory and the role of repentance. Listening to your discussion this evening reminded me of it. Karmen a beautiful story with an equally beautiful ending.
Canto 3 and 4 are rather difficult, yet life affirming canto's (which Catalina in "Karmen," if she read them, would understand). Dante makes us feel for Virgil and the others in limbo, who through no fault of their own, "failed to see all" and can never join Dante in his final ascent. Masterfully rendered.
I was surprised by how much Canto 4 in my copy was underlined. It's been years since I looked at it. "When Any of our faculties retains a strong impression of delight or pain, the soul will wholly concentrate on that, neglecting any other power it has...and thus when something seen or heard secures the soul in stringent grip, time moves and ye we do not notice it. The power that perceives the course of time is not the power that captures all the mind; the former has no force-the latter binds."
Is there no better truth expressed than that? Dante is gripped by his love for Beatrice, blinding him to anything else, and worse, possibly loving her more than God, preventing him to move on with his life. There are many passages like this in Purgatory. I've often wondered if there isn't some kind of clinical therapy based on the Divine Comedy. Dante's first smile...now there would be a great way to begin a therapy session. "What led to it? Let's us begin at the beginning."
Did you ever read Alejo Carpentier's "The Lost Steps?" I had noted it in my copy. Chapter 4 is both an odyssey through the Inferno and Purgatory. I think it was intentional. If you're not familiar with it, it's about a writer/musician and his singer wife traveling into the deep recess of the a South American river searching for the original instrument or source of music. There are parts in the book that easily could be from Purgatory or the Inferno:
"I fled from the horror, seeking the protection of my lover (his wife, Rosario; which here could be Virgil or possibly Beatrice), I was afraid. The shadows were closing about us in a premature twilight, and we had no sooner prpeared a hasty camp than it was night."
Or,
"...Rosario, who was cleaning my breakfast utensils with sand, it seemed to me that I was sharing with the thousands of men who lived in the unexplored headwaters of the Great Rivers the primordial sense of beauty, of beauty physically perceived, equal shared by body and spirit, reborn with each rising of the sun. Beauty thus perceived, in such remoteness, brings man the pride of feeling himself the master of the world, the supreme heir of creation."
Or,
"Alongside the tree ran an overarched channel, so narrow, so low, that it seemed impossible to me that the canoe could enter it. And yet our boat managed to make its way through this tunnel, with so little room to spare its sides grated against the gnarled roots. "
And finally, back to T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland, where the narrator of that apocalyptic poem says, "Unreal City...I had not thought death had undone so many." Although it was originally referenced in Inferno, this variation in Purgatory, " Siena made-Maremma unmade-me" yet against confirms the influence The Divine Comedy had on Eliot.
I really do feel like we should sit down one day with a couple of good cigars and your drink of choice, and have an endless chat about Dante, comics, books, literature, and anything else! Just let me know whenever you happen to travel to L.A. In any case, these are very thoughtful comments. Thank you for all the references, that I will find the time to check out. As for a psychoanalytical approach to Dante (or the Divine Comedy AS psychoanalysis), that’s such an interesting angle and if you look on youtube for the comedy videos by Mark Vernon, I think he is a psychiatrist and he brings that approach to each of his canto-by-canto comments.
Dante’s love for Beatrice remains a mystery to me, because even if he DID love her, and even if she DID trigger his first experience of love, by the time of his journey Dante has technically “moved on” from her to other women (them also with their symbolic meanings, like Lady Philosophy). He writes all about this in his Convivio, and that’s why in the final cantos of Purgatorio he gets The Scolding Of A Lifetime by Beatrice. I look forward to those cantos!
I found the sense of physical struggle particularly powerful and appropriate in this canto. As a hillwalking enthusiast I recognised the relief of a pause to rest and the cheering impact of looking back at how far you have come.
On the other hand the bits about the sun and hemispheres always confuse me.
You and me both! Dante’s geography is fascinating and one can dig deep into it, as we do have all the information we need to understand his contemporary astronomy, but it’s just not the most interesting part of his poem for me.
@@tomlabooks3263 I'm glad you said that.
It has been the same with me, as I made progress in the spiritual life, my smile progressed too. I could say that I am learning to smile in a new way. :D
A timely meditation on distraction and the balance between work and rest! I'm feeling it.
Oh me too! This canto is overflowing with wisdom.
I'm really enjoying Purgatory...that sounds odd doesn't it.... but the emergence of Dante's smile symbolises the joy and hope that seems to be running in seams through the rock of this mountain .. and the humour is affectionate ....the opening lines of this canto are so profound too, I am definitely able to loose time like that, to the frustration of those around me ...!
Me too! More often that I would like 😂 Of course, I blame my phone, when the responsibility is only mine!
Another great discussion. Longfellow translates line 122 as "A little unto laughter moved my lips;". Some beautiful language in this canto.
Grazie per la spiegazione! Sono tedesco e sto studiando l'italiano. Questo video mi ha aiuto molto in un seminario sulla Commedia.
Cari saluti!
Bitte sehr! If you are interested, I’m also doing a series about the Comedy in Italian, you can find it in my playlists. So far I’ve uploaded only the first 7 cantos of Inferno, but youtube automatically provides English cc’s and it might be useful.
@@tomlabooks3263 I will definitely check that out! This kind of content is really helpful to everyone who's studying Italian or literature in general. I will recommend your videos for sure :)
Do you know who did that painting of Dante smiling? I have never seen that before. Really great remarks on topic four. I really need to remember to take a rest every now and then. These last two weeks have been nothing but constant work, and feeling the burnout now. Dante firing back at Aristotle and Belacqua at the same time! haha. I can see Dante being quick on his feet. 🤣
Same here, my friend (about constant work in the last weeks). I guess some of that urgency transpired in my video! But I have a lovely break coming up soon, and it’s gonna be awesome 😎 No phone, only 5 books 📚. I hope you can get some rest soon, too. Edit: the artist who drew that smiling Dante is Gabriele dell’Otto. He is phenomenal.
@@tomlabooks3263 that is great to hear, five books and no phone is a need sometimes. I decided to take the next two days off, just not doing anything. That is why it took me so long to finally get to these last two Cantos, I need to actually sit down and pay attention to them and not just have them run in the background like so many other videos on this platform 😅 but it is always good to finally do so. I will look up Dell'Otto now! Thanks! 😊
@@attention5638 Dell’Otto has published all of his Comedy paintings for Inferno and Purgatorio on his personal website. Cheers 🥂 to our days of vital rest and imprescindibile relaxation.
Thanks for another great episode! Just one thought about the astronomy and sun going the "wrong way", it struck me as interesting in the sense of "massaging" in the idea of full re-orientation, and "metanoia"/repentance. One might need to re-construct the entire outlook, perhaps at a very big scale, as part of the process of learning. And it has a little bit of the confusing feeling after climbing up/down on Lucifer in Inferno 34. Kind of an "echo".
That’s a really excellent point. I love that term “metanoia”. The sense of a full revolution of your heart that’s typically involved in a conversion. That sense of “are we going up or down? Left or right?” is perfect to symbolize the scale of a full re-orientation of your life.
It is something very noticeable the disposition of these souls, absolutely and naturally different from those in Inferno. They recognise their sins and the necessity of purging them. They’re also very charitable.
It’s even more striking if you read Purgatorio right after having read all Inferno, right?
@@tomlabooks3263 Yes. Inferno is very fresh in my mind, gloomy and heavy, contrasting with the lightness of P.
Perfect, as usual, Tom. Thank you! Also wanted to share with you that I have just finished a biography of Dorothy L. Sayers (by Dr. Barbara Reynolds who was her BFF!) The last chapter is titled Gaudium which covers the last 14 years of her life that she devoted to Dante. Dr. Reynolds wrote a complete book (which I have ordered) on this subject called The Passionate Intellect: Dorothy L. Sayers' Encounter with Dante. So many changes occurred after she wrote for the BBC regarding how Dante was presented. So interesting how a man from 1307 changed the thoughts and writings in 1943 and forward. I was very interested in her thoughts that eventually went into the forward of the Penguin series. If you would like to have my book will be happy to send it to you. It also covers her time inventing Lord Peter Wimsey. Thanks again for todays thoughts, much appreciated!!
Wow first of all thank you for your very kind offer! I would love to read The Passionate Intellect, sounds like a book that I would enjoy very much. I need to be pragmatic and realize that I have so many books to read this year (!) but that’s a title that I will look out for. Thanks for your thoughts, great to see your passion for Dante AND for people who have a passion for Dante : )
@@tomlabooks3263 Oh My !! I just found something else of interest. The Figure Of Beatrice by Charles Williams. Evidentially Dorothy stumbled upon this book and things went on from there between herself, Williams and Oxford. Very good and complete review on Amazon. (and yes, I ordered it, couldn't help myself ! LOL)
@@Leebearify Completely understand! 😄
_First!_ First "smile" 😁 of Dante's 🤓 "In life he (I e., Belacqua) made God wait Now God makes him wait . . ." -- Ciardi
Beatrice is here in this, too: she shall be the final guide. Lots of tarot and astrological stuff: 7/The Chariot, #10/Wheel of Fortune, the Zodiac entirely! The Celestial Equator is an entirely other video. Thanks, Tom!
That’s absolutely right, Allen. Have you read “The new life” (La vita nuova) where Dante talks about Beatrice?
@@tomlabooks3263 I know off it but have not read it, yet.