An additional note: I actually believe that Dante got to a point where he considered the facts he described in the Comedy as real and true as the physical reality around himself, if not even more. That’s the only way I can make sense of the power of his psychological insights and of how the main characters vibrate with a life of their own. Literally “a life of their own”, meaning that some of the psychological subtleties might have sprung from Dante’s subconscious as he was writing, rather than having been fully rationalized by him before he put them on paper.
Very interesting thought.. the "Life is Smoke" idea of Ecclesiastes comes to mind.The ephemeral nature of the material "now", vs. the timeless reality of the immaterial and spiritual. Maybe he wanted to hint to this transition at this point, that we are moving into a spiritual world symbolized through the story, but more real than his passing days in the 13 hundreds. It's a brilliant observation btw., one of many movements from the Earthly to the Heavenly - in Purgatorio.
Maestro! Another great episode - and I love the image of "fresh emerald the instant it is split" from the Musa version. Breath-taking imagery. And as you pointed out, the ability of Dante to create a whole new world of visual experiences and feelings, and transforming the narrative in a few lines of verse, might be unparalleled. Have a great weekend!
That’s really interesting - Mandelbaum translates as “emerald when it’s dampened”, which is a completely different concept, but I think Musa got it right …. “ne l’ora che si fiacca” means “in the moment when it weakened” or broken. Thank you for watching!
@@tomlabooks3263 Very nice, I'll remember the word 'fiaccia' now! One more thing; I wonder if the six lines you referred to also might hint to Exodus and the tabernacle.. just from the evocation of materials etc: "3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, 4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, 5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood" - as somewhat similar to Dante's "Think of fine silver, gold, cochineal, white lead, Indian wood, glowing and deeply clear, fresh emerald the instant it is split." Dante is about to show us something deeper.
@@richardemerson549 Wow, that passage is definitely very similar! It wouldn’t be surprising if Dante took it from there - I will look into it. It NEVER ends with this book! : )
@@tomlabooks3263 Esatto! The feeling "wow, did he think of THAT too?!??!" comes back again and again countless times.. and the Exodus story (and concept) from Egypt to Israel lies underneath all along, and this is right before things get more spiritually allegorical. But very curious what you might find out about this! :)
I really like how Dante draws Dante in the first part of this Canto ..I think your right , he puffs himself up and edits his story , putting himself at the centre of the quest ...very realistic ...and makes him so human ...love the description of the garden but it's interesting that the metaphors are full of the sort of precious goods that the prosperous would have covered ....so much bling !!
Yes, the colors are SO vivid here. Especially if you think for a second about all of Inferno before you start reading this canto! Thank you for following these video, Hester, I hope you're well.
The detail in sculpture Monument to Dante showing Virgil talking to the shades with Dante peeping over Virgil’s shoulder captures the moment, I think . Virgil being the centre of attention and Dante taking a secondary position behind Virgil. Poor Virgil. Such a genius but still so very human and ending up in Limbo. After 700 years he can break free and meet up with the souls of Purgatory as Ratzinger abolished Limbo. 😉
Great points about Virgil ignoring Dante, being rude to the pilgrim, etc. Faith, Hope & Charity ... Justice, Temperature (i.e., Prudence) & Strength are major arcana tarot keys 🧙♂️🔮🃏"And what I say goes for that bignosed one"! Ha!
I have studied tarot and still wonder, what happened to Prudence? Why is that virtue not called out like the others? (All rhetorical questions.) I’ve read several ideas which suggest Prudence is ‘hidden’ or incorporated into the archetypes of The Hermit and/or The High Priestess. The structure of tarot is a grand and intriguing mystery to be contemplated just as is La Commedia. Happy contemplating!!
@@bighardbooks770 interesting that you should bring up The Star 🙂. I purposely excluded it because I have not been able to reconcile fully how the archetype of The Star represents Prudence. If it’s the birdie you’re pointing me toward, perhaps I’ve missed it because the symbolism is more metaphorical. The Hermit and The High Priestess can be viewed as more literal manifestations of Prudence, IMO. I’ll give the bird some thought 🙂 Thank you.
The theologic basis here for Virgil still never being able to attain heaven is that he knew Christ too late, but if God is all-forgiving, this act of Virgil leading Dante through Hell and Purgatory toward Heaven shows that Virgil is aware of god and is working for the "cause." Maybe it will become more clear later on why Dante (the poet) chose to give his Pilgrim a guide that loses out so sorely in the end after so much work. What would be/is Virgil's motivation for helping Dante? Also, I don't think Virgil's focus on himself is egoism, he's simply being asked a question and he answers it--just as Dante fell into his own thoughts in his earlier diatribe of the last canto. In a way, it feels like Virgil's discussion with Sordello is a counterbalance to Dante's diatribe--both stop action, but also deepens their respective characters. And I know Augustine didn't "invent" Limbo, even though his thoughts were the basis of later theologians about Limbo, but I still find Limbo the silliest concept in the world. I almost wish Dante would have done more to flesh out Limbo.
VERY crucial point, this one, my friend. With my usual caveat “I’m just a fan”, the reason why Virgil has to go back is that he is, after all, too tied up with earthly goods for Dante: Virgil was chosen as a guide because Dante wanted to be like him as a poet, so Dante as a lost soul in the beginning would more easily listen to his idol, but Dante has to get rid of that idolatry if he wants to complete his journey. On the other hand, I think as readers we are supposed to feel the unfairness of this whole system. We want Virgil to be saved! He deserves it! And Dante feels this too, to the point that in the scene where Virgil departs, Dante will cry like a baby. And his crying for Virgil redarkens Dante’s cheeks, undoing the cleansing that Virgil had done for him with the dew in Canto 1 - which is another symbol for how difficult it is for Dante to depart from Virgil. Of course there can be many more readings and interpretations! Someone brings up all the other philosophies and religions that existed before Jesus to contrast the validity of christianity. Dante doesn’t deny the influence of those doctrines on judaism. However, christianity sees Jesus as taking all those influential doctrines to completion - in a way that was never done before. But having said all this…. yes, the Limbo idea is quite hard to digest : )
I was just trying to look up if Dante accepted the notion of "The Divine Right of Kings." Do you by chance know? Knowing how often he challenges accepted operations of the Church during his time, I can't tell if he is challenging the idea of Devine Right of Kings with "the Valley of Rulers" or not. There seems to be a problem no matter which way Dante is presenting this. I am more than certain something just went over my head, or I am adding something that is simply not there and over thinking it. But I am a bit lost here, haha. 😅
For the emperor, yes. For the various kings, not really, as in his ideal political world they would need to be seen as simple emissaries of the emperor, who is the only one having a divine right over the people. This is the jist of what I understand from his De Monarchia.
I found Virgil's explanation of his fate rather poignant. There's a vulnerability in the way he talks about himself. The flowery meadow is glorious. I got a bit bogged down amongst all the rulers though.
Same with me - it’s difficult to find the closing tercets particularly inspiring when they basically list a bunch of 13th century kings. I guess we could imagine our contemporary “kings” and rulers in their place, although I’m not sure how many of them would actually make it even to the first rungs of hell : - )
@@tomlabooks3263 none at all. He felt there were good commentaries a reader could use. He was a poet although his wife was a Dante scholar. Instead it sets out to be as comprehensible as possible. He uses quatrains rather than terza rima which he reckons doesn't work so well with English. And he occasionally allows himself to add a word to convey something that might have been in a footnote into his verse if it fits and reflects consensus of interpretation. I'll see how that works in practice.
The detail in sculpture Monument to Dante showing Virgil talking to the shades with Dante peeping over Virgil’s shoulder captures the moment, I think . Virgil being the centre of attention and Dante taking a secondary position behind Virgil. Poor Virgil. Such a genius but still so very human and ending up in Limbo. After 700 years he can break free and meet up with the souls of Purgatory as Ratzinger abolished Limbo. 😉
An additional note: I actually believe that Dante got to a point where he considered the facts he described in the Comedy as real and true as the physical reality around himself, if not even more. That’s the only way I can make sense of the power of his psychological insights and of how the main characters vibrate with a life of their own. Literally “a life of their own”, meaning that some of the psychological subtleties might have sprung from Dante’s subconscious as he was writing, rather than having been fully rationalized by him before he put them on paper.
Very interesting thought.. the "Life is Smoke" idea of Ecclesiastes comes to mind.The ephemeral nature of the material "now", vs. the timeless reality of the immaterial and spiritual. Maybe he wanted to hint to this transition at this point, that we are moving into a spiritual world symbolized through the story, but more real than his passing days in the 13 hundreds.
It's a brilliant observation btw., one of many movements from the Earthly to the Heavenly - in Purgatorio.
Great discussion!
Thanks so much 🙏🏻
Maestro! Another great episode - and I love the image of "fresh emerald the instant it is split" from the Musa version. Breath-taking imagery. And as you pointed out, the ability of Dante to create a whole new world of visual experiences and feelings, and transforming the narrative in a few lines of verse, might be unparalleled. Have a great weekend!
That’s really interesting - Mandelbaum translates as “emerald when it’s dampened”, which is a completely different concept, but I think Musa got it right …. “ne l’ora che si fiacca” means “in the moment when it weakened” or broken. Thank you for watching!
@@tomlabooks3263 Very nice, I'll remember the word 'fiaccia' now!
One more thing; I wonder if the six lines you referred to also might hint to Exodus and the tabernacle.. just from the evocation of materials etc: "3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, 4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, 5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood" - as somewhat similar to Dante's "Think of fine silver, gold, cochineal, white lead, Indian wood, glowing and deeply clear, fresh emerald the instant it is split." Dante is about to show us something deeper.
@@richardemerson549 Wow, that passage is definitely very similar! It wouldn’t be surprising if Dante took it from there - I will look into it. It NEVER ends with this book! : )
@@tomlabooks3263 Esatto! The feeling "wow, did he think of THAT too?!??!" comes back again and again countless times.. and the Exodus story (and concept) from Egypt to Israel lies underneath all along, and this is right before things get more spiritually allegorical. But very curious what you might find out about this! :)
I really like how Dante draws Dante in the first part of this Canto ..I think your right , he puffs himself up and edits his story , putting himself at the centre of the quest ...very realistic ...and makes him so human ...love the description of the garden but it's interesting that the metaphors are full of the sort of precious goods that the prosperous would have covered ....so much bling !!
Yes, the colors are SO vivid here. Especially if you think for a second about all of Inferno before you start reading this canto! Thank you for following these video, Hester, I hope you're well.
The detail in sculpture Monument to Dante showing Virgil talking to the shades with Dante peeping over Virgil’s shoulder captures the moment, I think . Virgil being the centre of attention and Dante taking a secondary position behind Virgil. Poor Virgil. Such a genius but still so very human and ending up in Limbo. After 700 years he can break free and meet up with the souls of Purgatory as Ratzinger abolished Limbo. 😉
Welcome back Tom: we are waiting you
Thank you!
Great points about Virgil ignoring Dante, being rude to the pilgrim, etc. Faith, Hope & Charity ... Justice, Temperature (i.e., Prudence) & Strength are major arcana tarot keys 🧙♂️🔮🃏"And what I say goes for that bignosed one"! Ha!
One day I’ll ask you to read the cards for me my friend! : ) Thanks for watching.
I have studied tarot and still wonder, what happened to Prudence? Why is that virtue not called out like the others? (All rhetorical questions.) I’ve read several ideas which suggest Prudence is ‘hidden’ or incorporated into the archetypes of The Hermit and/or The High Priestess.
The structure of tarot is a grand and intriguing mystery to be contemplated just as is La Commedia. Happy contemplating!!
@@sabrinaimbrogno7932 #17/The Star is also related to Prudence (see that "little bird" on the card?)
@@bighardbooks770 interesting that you should bring up The Star 🙂. I purposely excluded it because I have not been able to reconcile fully how the archetype of The Star represents Prudence.
If it’s the birdie you’re pointing me toward, perhaps I’ve missed it because the symbolism is more metaphorical.
The Hermit and The High Priestess can be viewed as more literal manifestations of Prudence, IMO. I’ll give the bird some thought 🙂 Thank you.
i felt i was reading contemporary fiction with the description of the noses.
That is one of the smallest and yet most memorable of his touches of genius.
The theologic basis here for Virgil still never being able to attain heaven is that he knew Christ too late, but if God is all-forgiving, this act of Virgil leading Dante through Hell and Purgatory toward Heaven shows that Virgil is aware of god and is working for the "cause." Maybe it will become more clear later on why Dante (the poet) chose to give his Pilgrim a guide that loses out so sorely in the end after so much work. What would be/is Virgil's motivation for helping Dante? Also, I don't think Virgil's focus on himself is egoism, he's simply being asked a question and he answers it--just as Dante fell into his own thoughts in his earlier diatribe of the last canto. In a way, it feels like Virgil's discussion with Sordello is a counterbalance to Dante's diatribe--both stop action, but also deepens their respective characters. And I know Augustine didn't "invent" Limbo, even though his thoughts were the basis of later theologians about Limbo, but I still find Limbo the silliest concept in the world. I almost wish Dante would have done more to flesh out Limbo.
VERY crucial point, this one, my friend. With my usual caveat “I’m just a fan”, the reason why Virgil has to go back is that he is, after all, too tied up with earthly goods for Dante: Virgil was chosen as a guide because Dante wanted to be like him as a poet, so Dante as a lost soul in the beginning would more easily listen to his idol, but Dante has to get rid of that idolatry if he wants to complete his journey. On the other hand, I think as readers we are supposed to feel the unfairness of this whole system. We want Virgil to be saved! He deserves it! And Dante feels this too, to the point that in the scene where Virgil departs, Dante will cry like a baby. And his crying for Virgil redarkens Dante’s cheeks, undoing the cleansing that Virgil had done for him with the dew in Canto 1 - which is another symbol for how difficult it is for Dante to depart from Virgil. Of course there can be many more readings and interpretations!
Someone brings up all the other philosophies and religions that existed before Jesus to contrast the validity of christianity. Dante doesn’t deny the influence of those doctrines on judaism. However, christianity sees Jesus as taking all those influential doctrines to completion - in a way that was never done before.
But having said all this…. yes, the Limbo idea is quite hard to digest : )
I was just trying to look up if Dante accepted the notion of "The Divine Right of Kings." Do you by chance know? Knowing how often he challenges accepted operations of the Church during his time, I can't tell if he is challenging the idea of Devine Right of Kings with "the Valley of Rulers" or not. There seems to be a problem no matter which way Dante is presenting this. I am more than certain something just went over my head, or I am adding something that is simply not there and over thinking it. But I am a bit lost here, haha. 😅
For the emperor, yes. For the various kings, not really, as in his ideal political world they would need to be seen as simple emissaries of the emperor, who is the only one having a divine right over the people. This is the jist of what I understand from his De Monarchia.
I found Virgil's explanation of his fate rather poignant. There's a vulnerability in the way he talks about himself.
The flowery meadow is glorious. I got a bit bogged down amongst all the rulers though.
Same with me - it’s difficult to find the closing tercets particularly inspiring when they basically list a bunch of 13th century kings. I guess we could imagine our contemporary “kings” and rulers in their place, although I’m not sure how many of them would actually make it even to the first rungs of hell : - )
@@tomlabooks3263 I have a new edition now, the Clive James translation from 2013. I enjoyed having two to compare for Inferno.
@@scallydandlingaboutthebook2711 I heard that is a wonderful one. Does it come with good notes? Pinsky for example doesn’t have a lot of commentary.
@@tomlabooks3263 none at all. He felt there were good commentaries a reader could use. He was a poet although his wife was a Dante scholar. Instead it sets out to be as comprehensible as possible. He uses quatrains rather than terza rima which he reckons doesn't work so well with English. And he occasionally allows himself to add a word to convey something that might have been in a footnote into his verse if it fits and reflects consensus of interpretation. I'll see how that works in practice.
The detail in sculpture Monument to Dante showing Virgil talking to the shades with Dante peeping over Virgil’s shoulder captures the moment, I think . Virgil being the centre of attention and Dante taking a secondary position behind Virgil. Poor Virgil. Such a genius but still so very human and ending up in Limbo. After 700 years he can break free and meet up with the souls of Purgatory as Ratzinger abolished Limbo. 😉
That’s a great point, Marie. As a curiosity, that sculpture is actually a beautiful monument dedicated to Dante in my native town of Trento in Italy.