@@gabrielbovolonrodriguez8931 Urza's Saga dies to Blood Sun because a saga with no abilities is technically past its final chapter and is sacrificed as a state-based action. even if sagas got their first counter through an enters-the-battlefield triggered ability, Blood Sun would still force the controller of Urza's Saga to sacrifice it.
It is a trigger though. It's just that the event that did the triggering was the counter going on the saga. The lore token not being doubled is because that's not a trigger but a replacement effect.
Triggered abilities always use the words “if” “when” or “whenever” if it doesn’t have any of those 3 words then it’s not a trigger. Unless anyone knows any examples that don’t use those words.
For anyone that doesn't know - the counter getting put on a saga as it enters the battlefield is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability (similar to a Clone copying a creature) - as it's not a triggered ability, that doesn't get doubled. Now, chapter one going off is a triggered ability - but it's not caused by the permanent entering the battlefield; it's caused by the saga having its first counter put on it. While you could make the argument that "it gets the counter put on it as a result of it entering the battlefield, so it's an enters the battlefield ability", it's actually getting the counter put on it as part of a replacement effect, then when the spell finishes resolving and its on the battlefield, its first chapter triggers not because it entered the battlefield, but because it has a lore counter on it. That specific cause of the trigger - the lore counter, not entering the battlefield - is key, and why it doesn't get doubled.
@William Drum its to balance for competitive and consistancy reasons, if replacement effects were to be counted as enter the battlefield triggers, clone effects would be able to target two creatures when they enter the battlefield, so does it make a token? Does it have the abilities of both? Instead, its a replacement effect, and since sagas have the same wording, they are replacement effects as well It really doesn't make much sense unless you know the rules, and even then, they can be weird, but with how much money was on the line in tournaments, it was better to be rigerous than to do things the most "logical way"
L1 Judge here! The rule of importance here is this: 715.3a: As a Saga without the read ahead ability enters the battlefield, its controller puts a lore counter on it. (See rule 702.155, "Read Ahead.") This does not use the words "when," "whenever," or "at," which are words that call out a triggered ability. This is instead a replacement effect. Norn doubles triggers, and a trigger this is not. 😊
Yes I get what you mean, but I've seen too many misconceptions come from stating "its not a trigger". Lets outline it all more clearly to avoid potential misconceptions and confusion. Firstly, yes, the saga entering with a lore counter is a replacement effect and not a triggered ability thus Norn does not care for that. Crucially however, the goblin shaman is created by a triggered ability inherent to the functionality of sagas which is not conditional of it entering the battlefield (which is what Norn looks for). This is defined by: 715.2b “{rN}-[Effect]” means “When one or more lore counters are put onto this Saga, if the number of lore counters on it was less than N and became at least N, [effect].” For the overthinkers out there or those still confused, think of it this way: 1) the chapter 1 trigger is conditional of gaining the first counter thus Norn does not duplicate it as it is not ETB related. 2) Gaining the first counter is a replacement effect defined by saga rules based on the [non-read ahead] saga entering the battlefield. As it is not a trigger, Norn has no effect on it. Even though its ETB is the reason for the counter, this subtle separation is the reason for Norn's non-doubling.
While this definitely gets a lot of its DNA from Spike's Jeskai/Boros Lotus Field control decks, I think we can fairly call this a new deck. Spike was using this core to ramp into planeswalkers, big draw spells and Golos, while this deck has a midrange creature-based game plan.
Whenever I feel like getting back to modern, I only need to watch Harry's lists of modern brews and I instantly remember why I left the format to begin with. Thanks man!
Ok, so I'm odly surprised by Harry's thoughs at 8:25 I'm no judge, and I don't understand every single mechanics in mtg. If I'm wrong, I'd be very happy to know the details. Here's what I understand on the topic: - Chapters have nothing to do with etb, they are triggered abilities related to the number of lore counters on the saga. - When sagas are played, the "action" of setting the amount of lore counter isn't cathegorized as an etb, just like planeswalkers with loyalty counters. That's why Norn doesn't double lore counters and loyalty counters. **If** sagas' lore counters were etb, what would happen is both chapter 1 and 2 would resolve after casting fable (since norn would've doubled the etb of putting a lore counter on the saga). Both chapter's triggered abilities would only trigger once, because they are abilities triggered by lore counters. Lore counters aren't permanents, so chapters wouldn't trigger twice.
I'm not a judge but an episode of Dave's Daily Rulings talked about the Elesh Norn n Sagas interaction so this answer is on good authority. It is a replacement effect n thus happens before the saga enters the battlefield the same way a 0/0 entering with five +1/+1 counters on him won't give u the chance to pay 1 mana to draw a card with Mentor of the Meek. Hopefully my example is a more intuitive example of this rule for replacement effects
“As” it enters is a replacement effect, as it enters, not when it enters. Elesh Norn only affects permanents entering the battlefield triggered effects. Typically associated with “when X enters the battlefield do Y.”
Cards that enter with counters come onto the table with the counter, as if it is a part of the card. There is no effect, no triggers. So when Fable ETBS its just a saga chapter going off. Not an ETB trigger
Saga counters aren't a trigger. It's no different from a creature that says "~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it" Elesh Norn is clearly not seeing that as a trigger because it isn't one. Then it's like the same creature also containing some text that says "Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on ~, ..." Elesh Norn isn't interacting with that portion of it either.
With the Norn + Fable interaction, I'm no judge but you are correct - sagas enter with a Lore counter, get one Lore counter at the beginning of each of your main phases, and the trigger comes from gaining the Lore counter. Hence, no double trigger.
The lore counter on a saga never interacts with the stack, and elesh norn only cares about enter the battlefield abilities that hit the stack. Not a judge, but thought I could give a bit of the reason behind Elesh Norn not working with Sagas.
Harry check out inspiring statuary with chalice of the Void ensnaring bridge and Trinisphere in legacy I've been using karn living legacy and both other 4 drop karns. Worth noting that can use powerstone mana to pay for saga tokens misusing on karn that makes tokens. Consider urza the creature urzas saga and karn all make the same tokens
works with city of traitors and lets any of your spell lands enter untaped. I run them when I go heavy on prison and light on aggro like magus of moon and pick your "rabblemaster"
It's not an "ETB" trigger 😅. It's in the same space as a permanent into the battlefield with a counter on it. Then it goes into it's abilities. El Norn doesn't care about counters on permanent.
As a broke college student, I will be exploring this in Pioneer but on a major budget. Anyone wanna help me brainstorm how to make this work? I'm wondering if Primal Wellspring will keep the copy spell ability that's embedded within the mana ability clause. Any ideas, y'all?
Too dangerous in pioneer because lotus field combo is a pretty common deck and you're basically giving them the combo for free. This deck is all about leveraging the sheer value of MH and MH2 cards while staxing commonly played lands in modern that aren't legal in pioneer.
Could someone explain the blood sun and urzas saga interaction to me. I don't understand why it sacks. Should it just sit in the battlefield as a useless unusable land? Of its because it's a saga, doesn't the wording of saga say "sacrifice after lore 3" but it doesn't get to lore 3.
Yea it's because it's a saga with lore counters greater than or equal to the number of chapters it has which is the condition for a saga to be sent to the graveyard
As an American who loves to visit Japan it’s sad to see the country in such a bad spot. Nobody in the developed world seems to have figured out a solution to this problem.
copied from a quick google search concerning blood moon but also applies to blood sun: Blood Moon causes Urza's Saga to become a Mountain; this is setting a land's subtype to a basic land type, so is covered by Comprehensive Rule 305.7: If an effect sets a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copy effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. [...] Setting a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. This means that Urza Saga loses all its chapter abilities, but notably does not lose the Enchantment type and Saga subtype. CR 714.2d now applies: A Saga’s final chapter number is the greatest value among chapter abilities it has. If a Saga somehow has no chapter abilities, its final chapter number is 0. and now the state-based action from 714.4 applies: If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack. tldr: it's still a saga and a saga without abilities is considered to have "0" as it's max chapters and therefore dies due to a state based action due to reaching/being at max.
Howadays modern deckbuilding: hey i found nice two-card combo, lets just fill all the other slots with MH cards and go sorry for mh shitposting but i mean bruh
As a french, linguistically I don't see the diference between the 2 spellings. However I know the nuance looking at the mechanics : "When X enters the battlefield, do Y" triggers an ability that goes on top of the stack. "Comes into play with X" doesn't (sagas with lore counters, planeswalkers with loyalty counters, etc.).
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sagas get their first counter "as" they enter the battlefield not "when" so it's not a trigger and doesn't interact with norn
That's why Urza Saga get insta destroyed when ETB with Blood Sun too
@@gabrielbovolonrodriguez8931 Urza's Saga dies to Blood Sun because a saga with no abilities is technically past its final chapter and is sacrificed as a state-based action. even if sagas got their first counter through an enters-the-battlefield triggered ability, Blood Sun would still force the controller of Urza's Saga to sacrifice it.
It is a trigger though. It's just that the event that did the triggering was the counter going on the saga. The lore token not being doubled is because that's not a trigger but a replacement effect.
Triggered abilities always use the words “if” “when” or “whenever” if it doesn’t have any of those 3 words then it’s not a trigger. Unless anyone knows any examples that don’t use those words.
@@doopness785don’t forget “at” as well, that also signifies a triggered ability
For anyone that doesn't know - the counter getting put on a saga as it enters the battlefield is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability (similar to a Clone copying a creature) - as it's not a triggered ability, that doesn't get doubled. Now, chapter one going off is a triggered ability - but it's not caused by the permanent entering the battlefield; it's caused by the saga having its first counter put on it.
While you could make the argument that "it gets the counter put on it as a result of it entering the battlefield, so it's an enters the battlefield ability", it's actually getting the counter put on it as part of a replacement effect, then when the spell finishes resolving and its on the battlefield, its first chapter triggers not because it entered the battlefield, but because it has a lore counter on it. That specific cause of the trigger - the lore counter, not entering the battlefield - is key, and why it doesn't get doubled.
I was just about to comment this, but you said it better than I could have.
Why does this game have to be so weird
@William Drum its to balance for competitive and consistancy reasons, if replacement effects were to be counted as enter the battlefield triggers, clone effects would be able to target two creatures when they enter the battlefield, so does it make a token? Does it have the abilities of both? Instead, its a replacement effect, and since sagas have the same wording, they are replacement effects as well
It really doesn't make much sense unless you know the rules, and even then, they can be weird, but with how much money was on the line in tournaments, it was better to be rigerous than to do things the most "logical way"
@@connorhawkins315 Clones would also just die if they were triggered abilities since they are 0/0's.
L1 Judge here!
The rule of importance here is this:
715.3a: As a Saga without the read ahead ability enters the battlefield, its controller puts a lore counter on it. (See rule 702.155, "Read Ahead.")
This does not use the words "when," "whenever," or "at," which are words that call out a triggered ability. This is instead a replacement effect.
Norn doubles triggers, and a trigger this is not. 😊
It doesn't even enters with 2 counters?
@@Zosh_ Correct; the Saga enters with one lore counter.
Yes I get what you mean, but I've seen too many misconceptions come from stating "its not a trigger". Lets outline it all more clearly to avoid potential misconceptions and confusion.
Firstly, yes, the saga entering with a lore counter is a replacement effect and not a triggered ability thus Norn does not care for that.
Crucially however, the goblin shaman is created by a triggered ability inherent to the functionality of sagas which is not conditional of it entering the battlefield (which is what Norn looks for). This is defined by:
715.2b “{rN}-[Effect]” means “When one or more lore counters are put onto this Saga, if the number of lore counters on it was less than N and became at least N, [effect].”
For the overthinkers out there or those still confused, think of it this way:
1) the chapter 1 trigger is conditional of gaining the first counter thus Norn does not duplicate it as it is not ETB related.
2) Gaining the first counter is a replacement effect defined by saga rules based on the [non-read ahead] saga entering the battlefield. As it is not a trigger, Norn has no effect on it.
Even though its ETB is the reason for the counter, this subtle separation is the reason for Norn's non-doubling.
Hardly new combo, but still my favourite in modern. Spike played it pre mh2 and this combo won the Swedish modern Championship in 2022.
While this definitely gets a lot of its DNA from Spike's Jeskai/Boros Lotus Field control decks, I think we can fairly call this a new deck. Spike was using this core to ramp into planeswalkers, big draw spells and Golos, while this deck has a midrange creature-based game plan.
The Saga interaction is because sagas getting lore counters on etb is a replacement effect but Elesh Norn only cares about triggers
Whenever I feel like getting back to modern, I only need to watch Harry's lists of modern brews and I instantly remember why I left the format to begin with. Thanks man!
Most of his come from spike, so if you really want to leave check out some of spikes
"We don't care about Blood Moon because every card in our deck is red"
*immediately top decks Solitude mid sentence*
😂
Lmao, real.
Ok, so I'm odly surprised by Harry's thoughs at
8:25
I'm no judge, and I don't understand every single mechanics in mtg. If I'm wrong, I'd be very happy to know the details. Here's what I understand on the topic:
- Chapters have nothing to do with etb, they are triggered abilities related to the number of lore counters on the saga.
- When sagas are played, the "action" of setting the amount of lore counter isn't cathegorized as an etb, just like planeswalkers with loyalty counters. That's why Norn doesn't double lore counters and loyalty counters.
**If** sagas' lore counters were etb, what would happen is both chapter 1 and 2 would resolve after casting fable (since norn would've doubled the etb of putting a lore counter on the saga). Both chapter's triggered abilities would only trigger once, because they are abilities triggered by lore counters. Lore counters aren't permanents, so chapters wouldn't trigger twice.
sagas are similar to shock lands, its not an ETB, its "as" it enters/"enters with", different to "when" triggers
That predator ooze from the packs just hit me with a wave of nostalgia lol
I'm not a judge but an episode of Dave's Daily Rulings talked about the Elesh Norn n Sagas interaction so this answer is on good authority. It is a replacement effect n thus happens before the saga enters the battlefield the same way a 0/0 entering with five +1/+1 counters on him won't give u the chance to pay 1 mana to draw a card with Mentor of the Meek. Hopefully my example is a more intuitive example of this rule for replacement effects
Last game - and like an absolute beast we pull it back because we don’t concede.
lotus field trigger twice with elesh norn if you dont have blood sun
True. But then just don't play it.
This is not a new combo but man it has been my favourite for a long time now and doesn’t get old to me.
“As” it enters is a replacement effect, as it enters, not when it enters.
Elesh Norn only affects permanents entering the battlefield triggered effects. Typically associated with “when X enters the battlefield do Y.”
Good to see Thraban Inspector seeing some much deserved Modern play!
Dude. Beautiful editing!
Loved the deck. I guess I'll be trying it in a league.
Cards that enter with counters come onto the table with the counter, as if it is a part of the card. There is no effect, no triggers. So when Fable ETBS its just a saga chapter going off. Not an ETB trigger
Saga counters aren't a trigger. It's no different from a creature that says "~ enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it"
Elesh Norn is clearly not seeing that as a trigger because it isn't one.
Then it's like the same creature also containing some text that says "Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on ~, ..."
Elesh Norn isn't interacting with that portion of it either.
Blood sun work very well with bounce lands in edh as well
Keep to the great work.
Really cool combo with the lotus field
Like an absolute beast! Awesome video Harry!
Sometimes it makes me sad how every deck - even when built around a creative idea - still has to run 10-12 Modern Horizons cards just to keep up
The podcast has so much empty space and no transitions now without harry, he really was the mvp of it.
With the Norn + Fable interaction, I'm no judge but you are correct - sagas enter with a Lore counter, get one Lore counter at the beginning of each of your main phases, and the trigger comes from gaining the Lore counter. Hence, no double trigger.
The lore counter on a saga never interacts with the stack, and elesh norn only cares about enter the battlefield abilities that hit the stack. Not a judge, but thought I could give a bit of the reason behind Elesh Norn not working with Sagas.
Harry check out inspiring statuary with chalice of the Void ensnaring bridge and Trinisphere in legacy I've been using karn living legacy and both other 4 drop karns. Worth noting that can use powerstone mana to pay for saga tokens misusing on karn that makes tokens. Consider urza the creature urzas saga and karn all make the same tokens
Would blood sun be worth playing in legacy? Maybe in a Red Prison shell, as a duplicate (though worse) blood moon?
works with city of traitors and lets any of your spell lands enter untaped. I run them when I go heavy on prison and light on aggro like magus of moon and pick your "rabblemaster"
So if that lotus fields abilites get blocked, its just a tap add 3 mana???
It's not an "ETB" trigger 😅. It's in the same space as a permanent into the battlefield with a counter on it. Then it goes into it's abilities. El Norn doesn't care about counters on permanent.
As a broke college student, I will be exploring this in Pioneer but on a major budget. Anyone wanna help me brainstorm how to make this work? I'm wondering if Primal Wellspring will keep the copy spell ability that's embedded within the mana ability clause. Any ideas, y'all?
Too dangerous in pioneer because lotus field combo is a pretty common deck and you're basically giving them the combo for free. This deck is all about leveraging the sheer value of MH and MH2 cards while staxing commonly played lands in modern that aren't legal in pioneer.
@@yujiro424 I really appreciate you explaining it to me. Thanks for your input, it makes a lot of sense.
@@Reaper8989 No problem, I was just trying to save you from trying to buy into something that almost certainly won't work.
Could someone explain the blood sun and urzas saga interaction to me. I don't understand why it sacks. Should it just sit in the battlefield as a useless unusable land? Of its because it's a saga, doesn't the wording of saga say "sacrifice after lore 3" but it doesn't get to lore 3.
Yea it's because it's a saga with lore counters greater than or equal to the number of chapters it has which is the condition for a saga to be sent to the graveyard
Wouldn't Elesh Norn force your Sagas to start on the second verse?
Worth running Boros Garrison at all? Since it's 2 mana that also synergizes with blood sun
I get anxious with the sounds effects of these videos
Kind of reminds me of the trick with Mirran Safehouse and Lotus Vale
I think this will break Lotus Field Combo for Pioneer.
So if a land says it enters the battlefield tapped, that's an ability? So what about bounce lands then? Do they lose the bounce ability?
Yes.
is this a new MTG app or something to play modern ? how is it called?
As an American who loves to visit Japan it’s sad to see the country in such a bad spot. Nobody in the developed world seems to have figured out a solution to this problem.
Can't wait for the trio to be back on Midweek Meta Game 😭
what is the app your playing in?
Honestly the first thing that stood out to me when I saw this deck was "wow, I can't believe ragavan is still legal in modern"
10:24 really dude?
nonmbo warning - double trigger Lotus field - Sac 4 lands!!!!
Is this combo Pioneer legal?
Seems like more fun red prison trek
I remember this combo in standard
If blood sun removes all abilities, why does urzas saga go to the graveyard?
copied from a quick google search concerning blood moon but also applies to blood sun:
Blood Moon causes Urza's Saga to become a Mountain; this is setting a land's subtype to a basic land type, so is covered by Comprehensive Rule 305.7:
If an effect sets a land’s subtype to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text, its old land types, and any copy effects affecting that land, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. [...] Setting a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any card types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have.
This means that Urza Saga loses all its chapter abilities, but notably does not lose the Enchantment type and Saga subtype.
CR 714.2d now applies:
A Saga’s final chapter number is the greatest value among chapter abilities it has. If a Saga somehow has no chapter abilities, its final chapter number is 0.
and now the state-based action from 714.4 applies:
If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack.
tldr: it's still a saga and a saga without abilities is considered to have "0" as it's max chapters and therefore dies due to a state based action due to reaching/being at max.
harry enters as a is not etb trigger
Try going 5-0 with twiddle storm
Howadays modern deckbuilding: hey i found nice two-card combo, lets just fill all the other slots with MH cards and go
sorry for mh shitposting but i mean bruh
yeah, kinda true. Also fable is an honorary mh card.
Modern was like that long before MH
That’s amazing
These obvious combos are the reason why im not in daimond anymore.
Algorithm boosting comment for my boy HarryMTG
i miss Jund.
"Enters the battlefield" isn't the same as "comes into play with".
I thought it was
As a french, linguistically I don't see the diference between the 2 spellings.
However I know the nuance looking at the mechanics : "When X enters the battlefield, do Y" triggers an ability that goes on top of the stack. "Comes into play with X" doesn't (sagas with lore counters, planeswalkers with loyalty counters, etc.).
"this combo but with evoke elementals and ragavan"
-Modern
Gotta love how Ragavan is so busted that it gets played in stuff it has no real business being in. Another MH2 pile, isn't modern fun weeeeeeeeeee
I watch your videos for the game play, but I feel like you’ve been showing us less and less of that.