The reason clerics turn undead is that they were never supposed to be a priestly healer class. They were originally meant to be specialized vampire hunters. Because in 1e D&D, undead were _terrifying_ unstoppable abominations that drained character levels from you. The cleric wasn't supposed to be your friendly local priest, he was supposed to be Van Helsing.
In 3rd edition, only good aligned clerics got turn undead automatically, evil clerics instead got rebuke undead, which was basically charm/control undead, and neutral aligned clerics could choose either option.
There are really two explanations as to why Clerics still get Turn Undead. First is an in universe reason and second is an out of universe reason. First explanation, undeath goes against the natural cycle of souls through the multiverse. As undeath prevents a soul from going to its allotted outer plane. Second explanation, Turn Undead has been a feature since OD&D and is therefore a Golden Calf and can't be removed because "This is D&D and it's always been there."
The reason is actually very simple! Gods in dnd, even the evil ones (even Orcus god of undeath), HATE UNDEAD (though Orcus hates everything so that's not too surprising). The reason they hate undead has to do with how gods in dnd not only sustain themselves but grow. See, when you die, your soul tends to find its way to your god of choice or, failing that, the one your soul most aligns with (failing even that is the wall of the faithless or genies but that's a whole other story). When your soul arrives it becomes what are known as petitioners, beings who are wiped clean of their past life's memories and now work towards becoming one with the plane and their god. The closer one becomes, the more of their old self is lost and the more the void is filled with that realm's vibes. Eventually, those that complete this change become an actual part of their deity. This is why liches and the like are HIGHLY discouraged by the gods and mummies are even rarer. Gods almost NEVER want to keep their most devout stuck on the prime for some task like guarding a tomb. They want you coming to their plane to join up and make them a greater and greater deity. Now you might be wondering "what if a god doesn't want to join the rat race to become the biggest bestest god?" Well Ao, the Overgod, removes them from godhood and finds someone that does. Though they have never gone into detail as to why. 😅
More than likely because Ao is doing similar. The stronger gods get the more intune/one with the universe they become leading to Ao increasing in power also. Or it could be a decree fromt the shining being, aka the DM lol
3rd edition had a different method of this that made more sense for undead. Evil clerics didn't turn undead; they rebuked them. The undead became paralyzed with awe; and where good clerics could destroy undead, evil clerics could control them. Pathfinder also did something similar where good clerics healed the living and harmed undead, but evil clerics did the opposite. Pathfinder also included the feat Elemental Channel, which did the same thing for elementals, as well as a more general Alignment Channel for extraplanar creatures of particular alignments
Ahhh, so that's what you meant! This is a point we do agree on, and I feel like the same courtesy should be extended to the paladin. Basically I think more options is pretty universally better in almost every case
Other comment: for people saying that necromancers must help civilization using undead and so on, remember that zumbi and the like are slavery of the soul after the death (this is the origin of zombies in real world - and is this that make necromancers some of the most evil spellcasters)
The reasoning behind it being undead is clerics deal with the line between life and death, the undead being neither alive nor dead are an offence to the very idea of what a cleric is at root, hence why it is specifically undead their skills work on.
It's a holdover from back in the days where clerics were all servants of GOOD or NEUTRAL gods that would never consider undead to be useful. All the good gods in the first couple of editions HATED undead. Even the gods of death hated undead. Modern sensibilities aside, the idea that players would want to play servants of EVIL gods and use that unholy art of necromancy to raise or control undead was unheard of. Even in 2014, the DEATH domain, the evil domain was only in the DMG. But I know how you roll (and role) here. So flavor away. But I wonder if you consider why it is that every warlock patron gives their warlocks eldritch blast? Genies, Archfiends, Archfey, even Chuthulu and Angels give all their servants a ranged force spell that can target more people the more powerful the warlock becomes. We as players know why. Warlocks are a class in a RPG. Despite the differences in their patrons, each warlock is basically making the same choices. I like to think that the devils started the warlock craze. They formed the contracts, power for your immortal soul, and thus why the class has a very dark feel to it. But powerful extraplanar entities are jealous beaches, and once the Archfey and GOOs learned of this arrangement, they wanted in. (Well, we aren't sure if the GOOs even know they're being used, but whatever) So they took the devils' contract and edited to better suit their goals and abilities. So they removed absorbing your enemies lifeforce and added thing like teleportation and charm stuff for fey and mental powers and making thralls for the GOO and healing for the celestials. But this at will force beam power didn't have the taint of evil or hell about it, so they kept it in. Either because patrons are naturally lazy or it was such a good idea everybody wanted to copy it. As more warlocks were made, the Archdevils had to sweeten the deal and lower the cost. So not necessarily your soul anymore, but servitude anyway. Supply and demand. But yeah, Clerics turn undead in D&D. Even the evil ones. For simplicity mostly. Previously, in more complicated versions of this game (*cough, 3.5, cough*), clerics either channelled radiant energy or necrotic energy. Cure wounds or inflict wounds. 5e simplified it to two different uses, turn undead and something more thematic for that domain. Now they've streamlined it even more for 5.24. With everything the clerics get in 5.24 including an effective divine intervention, you won't miss it.
This is more or less it, but there's the added bit that the gods want something from mortals. Their souls. That's why Kelemvor is dividing them among the gods in the first place. Being undead keeps your soul away from the gods, which is why a lich locks up their soul in a phylactery. In short, the gods get pissed when they don't get their souls so they send in the clerics to give them their "eternal rest".
Dungeon Crawl Classics use something like that. The god the cleric worships has a list of profane creatures and most if not all of them retain undead (either to turn or control) because of the inspiration from older editions of dnd where undead were very scary with level drain and such. There's also that origin story of the class that the cleric is supposed to be a monster (undead) hunter and etc
I have always thought the whole "turn undead / command undead" has always seemed weird as a base class feature. Having gods that gave you different abilities did not exist until AD&D 2e in a Forgotten Realms hardcover book. But even that did not change the turn/command undead ability. It would be best if it were a spell they can prepare.
The problem started with everything all the time against everything. Ie all your powers have to work all the time. A ranger's enemy should be a specifc enemy tied to the background, etc.
For me all clerics must turn undead (and maybe other thing), because all gods are responsible for the "way the things are in the universe" and undead are always a subversion of this "way the things are"
I think. For a LOT of gods. Or clerics. Because most undead are created against the will of the undead creature. That’s an aversion. Undead also can’t worship. Or like how fairies hate undead because they are a perversion of life, nature gods would probably feel the same. But everything else I agree with
@@emissara6512 is the soul undead? Or just animated by undeath? Or are you just animating an object? Maybe less so for a vampire, but for a skeleton? Is the soul ripped from their afterlife they've been in for 1000 years? It's been very clear in many zombie media that the soul has nothing to do with it
@@TheClericCorner God's in DnD get their power from worship. They value the Souls of the living for this very reason. An undead creature's Soul is a perversion of the natural ordered twisted to make unlife in most cases. Their twisted Souls if it cam provide worship is probably less appealing if appealing at all to a God. So what else to do but end it? And return the Soul to its natural Cy le. Ifģb Though this could ha
I'm gonna say there's a reason they're playing dnd and not pathfinder. I like the side quests in elder scrolls better than zelda, but everything else different in zelda works better
@@LP-tf7cy way too much people stick to dnd for convenience, but pf2 is not only free, but really easy to learn and intuitive and I really think it could benefit him trying it. Bear in mind, I'm not even saying this to shill MY favorite system, or I'd be recommending Vagabond, Draw Steel and Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard. I'm recommending something that does what he wants. Also, I'm not saying "drop 5e". Im saying "check Pathfinder". It's a great source if inspiration even if you just wanna homebrew.
The reason clerics turn undead is that they were never supposed to be a priestly healer class. They were originally meant to be specialized vampire hunters. Because in 1e D&D, undead were _terrifying_ unstoppable abominations that drained character levels from you.
The cleric wasn't supposed to be your friendly local priest, he was supposed to be Van Helsing.
Last I checked, vampires weren't the only thing he hunted! And clerics have been described as priests since first edition lol
In 3rd edition, only good aligned clerics got turn undead automatically, evil clerics instead got rebuke undead, which was basically charm/control undead, and neutral aligned clerics could choose either option.
Except irl priests dealt with undead, too. Holy symbols and pictures of saints were supposed to ward off evil
@@TheClericCorner"Vampires weren't the only thing he hunted"
....You didn't actually read Dracula, did you?
your audio seems to be a scooch off
I did exactly that for my current campaign. Funnily enough, our cleric chose Undead because it makes the most sense to her domain and backstory haha
There are really two explanations as to why Clerics still get Turn Undead. First is an in universe reason and second is an out of universe reason.
First explanation, undeath goes against the natural cycle of souls through the multiverse. As undeath prevents a soul from going to its allotted outer plane.
Second explanation, Turn Undead has been a feature since OD&D and is therefore a Golden Calf and can't be removed because "This is D&D and it's always been there."
The reason is actually very simple! Gods in dnd, even the evil ones (even Orcus god of undeath), HATE UNDEAD (though Orcus hates everything so that's not too surprising). The reason they hate undead has to do with how gods in dnd not only sustain themselves but grow. See, when you die, your soul tends to find its way to your god of choice or, failing that, the one your soul most aligns with (failing even that is the wall of the faithless or genies but that's a whole other story). When your soul arrives it becomes what are known as petitioners, beings who are wiped clean of their past life's memories and now work towards becoming one with the plane and their god. The closer one becomes, the more of their old self is lost and the more the void is filled with that realm's vibes. Eventually, those that complete this change become an actual part of their deity.
This is why liches and the like are HIGHLY discouraged by the gods and mummies are even rarer. Gods almost NEVER want to keep their most devout stuck on the prime for some task like guarding a tomb. They want you coming to their plane to join up and make them a greater and greater deity.
Now you might be wondering "what if a god doesn't want to join the rat race to become the biggest bestest god?" Well Ao, the Overgod, removes them from godhood and finds someone that does. Though they have never gone into detail as to why. 😅
More than likely because Ao is doing similar. The stronger gods get the more intune/one with the universe they become leading to Ao increasing in power also. Or it could be a decree fromt the shining being, aka the DM lol
@jdizzy192 that actually makes a lot of sense!
Orcus is not a god, he is a demon lord.
Very well said
3rd edition had a different method of this that made more sense for undead. Evil clerics didn't turn undead; they rebuked them. The undead became paralyzed with awe; and where good clerics could destroy undead, evil clerics could control them.
Pathfinder also did something similar where good clerics healed the living and harmed undead, but evil clerics did the opposite. Pathfinder also included the feat Elemental Channel, which did the same thing for elementals, as well as a more general Alignment Channel for extraplanar creatures of particular alignments
Don't forgot DND 3 also have domain powers that you could turn elementals and so on
@@RicardoSR That's right, I forgot about that
The many domains from 3.5 did exactly that, as well as one alignment determining whether a cleric turns and destroys or rebukes and commands.
Ahhh, so that's what you meant! This is a point we do agree on, and I feel like the same courtesy should be extended to the paladin. Basically I think more options is pretty universally better in almost every case
AGREED!! I would change the smite damage types to being custom
Other comment: for people saying that necromancers must help civilization using undead and so on, remember that zumbi and the like are slavery of the soul after the death (this is the origin of zombies in real world - and is this that make necromancers some of the most evil spellcasters)
The reasoning behind it being undead is clerics deal with the line between life and death, the undead being neither alive nor dead are an offence to the very idea of what a cleric is at root, hence why it is specifically undead their skills work on.
Tempest domains deal with life and death?? 🤔
It's a holdover from back in the days where clerics were all servants of GOOD or NEUTRAL gods that would never consider undead to be useful. All the good gods in the first couple of editions HATED undead. Even the gods of death hated undead. Modern sensibilities aside, the idea that players would want to play servants of EVIL gods and use that unholy art of necromancy to raise or control undead was unheard of. Even in 2014, the DEATH domain, the evil domain was only in the DMG. But I know how you roll (and role) here. So flavor away. But I wonder if you consider why it is that every warlock patron gives their warlocks eldritch blast? Genies, Archfiends, Archfey, even Chuthulu and Angels give all their servants a ranged force spell that can target more people the more powerful the warlock becomes. We as players know why. Warlocks are a class in a RPG. Despite the differences in their patrons, each warlock is basically making the same choices. I like to think that the devils started the warlock craze. They formed the contracts, power for your immortal soul, and thus why the class has a very dark feel to it. But powerful extraplanar entities are jealous beaches, and once the Archfey and GOOs learned of this arrangement, they wanted in. (Well, we aren't sure if the GOOs even know they're being used, but whatever) So they took the devils' contract and edited to better suit their goals and abilities. So they removed absorbing your enemies lifeforce and added thing like teleportation and charm stuff for fey and mental powers and making thralls for the GOO and healing for the celestials. But this at will force beam power didn't have the taint of evil or hell about it, so they kept it in. Either because patrons are naturally lazy or it was such a good idea everybody wanted to copy it. As more warlocks were made, the Archdevils had to sweeten the deal and lower the cost. So not necessarily your soul anymore, but servitude anyway. Supply and demand. But yeah, Clerics turn undead in D&D. Even the evil ones. For simplicity mostly. Previously, in more complicated versions of this game (*cough, 3.5, cough*), clerics either channelled radiant energy or necrotic energy. Cure wounds or inflict wounds. 5e simplified it to two different uses, turn undead and something more thematic for that domain. Now they've streamlined it even more for 5.24. With everything the clerics get in 5.24 including an effective divine intervention, you won't miss it.
This is more or less it, but there's the added bit that the gods want something from mortals. Their souls. That's why Kelemvor is dividing them among the gods in the first place. Being undead keeps your soul away from the gods, which is why a lich locks up their soul in a phylactery. In short, the gods get pissed when they don't get their souls so they send in the clerics to give them their "eternal rest".
yes! thank you! This should also be extended to Druid’s, who have the ability to turn plants, Faye, elemental, etc.
I like this idea. Very cool. 👍
Dungeon Crawl Classics use something like that. The god the cleric worships has a list of profane creatures and most if not all of them retain undead (either to turn or control) because of the inspiration from older editions of dnd where undead were very scary with level drain and such. There's also that origin story of the class that the cleric is supposed to be a monster (undead) hunter and etc
Thanks for saying it out loud. I'm on the same page.
Dude, the Turn Undead has been a crux for me (HA just realized what I did there) in regards to Clerics.
love the points at @3:08 ! keep it up !
I have always thought the whole "turn undead / command undead" has always seemed weird as a base class feature. Having gods that gave you different abilities did not exist until AD&D 2e in a Forgotten Realms hardcover book. But even that did not change the turn/command undead ability. It would be best if it were a spell they can prepare.
@@grr-OUCH THANK YOU. that's actually a good alternative!
The problem started with everything all the time against everything. Ie all your powers have to work all the time. A ranger's enemy should be a specifc enemy tied to the background, etc.
Honestly that's fair enough opinion but I don't really care either way
6:45-I think he was talking about Divine Spark.
I never thought about it..... like that..... huh....
For me all clerics must turn undead (and maybe other thing), because all gods are responsible for the "way the things are in the universe" and undead are always a subversion of this "way the things are"
I'd argue that's subjective! And undead are one of many 'ways that things are'.
Heh, just let my Cleric Player pick what he turns, and now I see this vid. Yep. Turn Aberrations all the way!
I think. For a LOT of gods. Or clerics. Because most undead are created against the will of the undead creature. That’s an aversion. Undead also can’t worship. Or like how fairies hate undead because they are a perversion of life, nature gods would probably feel the same. But everything else I agree with
This is probably the coldest hot take
You act like there is no D&D before 5th edition
Why give them the 5e Ranger version of Favoured Enemy when the 5e Favoured Enemy was terrible?
Because they always have.
Undead soul's are of no value to gods
@@emissara6512 is the soul undead? Or just animated by undeath? Or are you just animating an object? Maybe less so for a vampire, but for a skeleton? Is the soul ripped from their afterlife they've been in for 1000 years? It's been very clear in many zombie media that the soul has nothing to do with it
@@TheClericCorner God's in DnD get their power from worship. They value the Souls of the living for this very reason. An undead creature's Soul is a perversion of the natural ordered twisted to make unlife in most cases. Their twisted Souls if it cam provide worship is probably less appealing if appealing at all to a God. So what else to do but end it? And return the Soul to its natural Cy le. Ifģb
Though this could ha
Pathfinder. You want Pathfinder 2e. It does exactly what you want and more.
I'm gonna say there's a reason they're playing dnd and not pathfinder. I like the side quests in elder scrolls better than zelda, but everything else different in zelda works better
@@LP-tf7cy way too much people stick to dnd for convenience, but pf2 is not only free, but really easy to learn and intuitive and I really think it could benefit him trying it. Bear in mind, I'm not even saying this to shill MY favorite system, or I'd be recommending Vagabond, Draw Steel and Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard. I'm recommending something that does what he wants.
Also, I'm not saying "drop 5e". Im saying "check Pathfinder". It's a great source if inspiration even if you just wanna homebrew.