FS7 RAW vs. XAVC vs. ProRes for Digital Content | Tips & Tutorials
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2016
- Vistek Video Producer Dale Sood, discusses FS7 RAW, XAVC and ProRes codecs and how they compare for digital content creation. Shop for the Sony FS7 & XDAC Extention unit at Vistek - www.vistek.ca/search/-Sony/So...
UPDATED: After posting a lot of great shooters have come forward with their thoughts. A big shout out to Anthony Brown from the UK who contributed a great deal to this discussion. A few observations worth sharing:
8-bit style banding likely comes from the "use maximum bit depth" automatically not being clicked under Premiere's Sequence Settings. Clicking this will slow down the CPU, but may help for previews. It greatly reduced the XAVC banding, but did not eliminate it in the way that ProRes seems to have.
The 7Q+ maps FS7 Raw with S-Log2, hence the 32 IRE grey reading. Profile mapping may be different from recorder to recorder.
The Atomos Shogun is now capable of recording 12 bit RAW (newest firmware release). And the 7Q+ has been updated with some additional FS7 functionality.
Thank you to everyone who commented and shared their experience. - Наука та технологія
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Thank you for the very informative video. It's amazing what the XAVC can do, if you are willing to put in the effort.
Thanks Bradford!
ProRes which was "invented" by Apple quite some time ago was exclusively designed to make editing in FCP pre X an easy experience simply because the codec is fully baked... you are not live decoding like you would with XAVC. The editing system is simply "playing" the material rather than live decoding. This is the same thing AVID did in late 80s when they released the software... you had to transcode any footage and "digitze" to work in the software. AVID invented something called AMA which is essentially the process of being to play back whatever is on the camera thus not having to transcode to a DNX codec. Most people do not use that because they found it unreliable and fussy. In Premiere they kinda got it figured out but If you have ever edited a long project over one hour using the native codecs you will see most systems chug or maybe even choke. Arri started using both ProRes and DNX Avid codecs in it's Alexa back in 2010. It was exclusively designed to appeal to us post people. Just like the film days, just because you shot in film does not mean you are going to edit in film. If you have ever edited a multi camera project recording to ProRes using external recorders with proxies does make the whole editing process relatively painless even in 4K ProRes and DNX are really built to make things easy on most systems but they are generally not going to be the most colour accurate or rich in colour codecs even at higher bit rates and colour space. ProRes is supposed to offer a balance but if fidelity is what you need then you'll need to go with RAW for sure. Maybe ProRes Raw will do as well.
There is a ton of processing going on in most cameras at this level .. just look at all the picture profiles etc... so not surprising there is banding and fringing especially Sony. But honestly today most people are GAGA over the A7 III even at 8 bit 4 2 0
so not even sure quality is a huge issue anymore... just two years later and the landscape has really changed. It's a UA-cam/Hulu/Amazon/Netflix world. In truth Netflix has some pretty strict guidelines .
very nicely explained. appreciate the efforts taken for this video.Love from INDIA.
Thank you Vishal!
Would be interesting to see how this same test works out after YT has implemented HDR. Maybe it will show some nicer gradations in those files and make a difference.
do you know if premiere cc 2020 improved this color issue?
Would love if you could post up sample clips/frames for us to download for test purposes. Mainly to compare raw grading to xavc.
Hi MAC Motions! Thanks for the comment - I totally agree, it would have been a great idea had I thought of that before deleting all the footage. Once the videos go up, all the project files get deleted as we have limited space for media storage. I'll definitely do that next time we do any videos about footage quality or grading. Thanks for the suggestion! - Dale
Interesting tests. Thanks for posting. Did you bring the original 4K into each of those NLE's or transcode downwards beforehand in another program?
Hi Leonard. No transcoding was done. All files were worked on in their native recorded codec. This is true in both Premiere and Resolve. Resolve grade was exported as ProRes 422 HQ.
How to convert xdroot folder clip to apple prores 422 hq
You should check out a program called slim raw, its about 30 or so bucks but it will compress the raw footage from 1:1 to 3:1-5:1. saving a whole lot of hard drive space.
Nice tests. Do you use Aces color space in Resolve? or just the default Davinci Color Space?
Hi there - at the time I did not use ACES. I do now for my projects, but I'm also not convinced that it makes a noticeable difference when displaying the project on the web only.
Which codec you think will help me reduce noise? I have been using the ProRes the XACV I XACV L the RAW files and still the camera gives me this noise problem. For INternal I use the native ISO 2000, Cine IE, Slog3.CIne...Balance well my Camera with the middle gray and I still have the Noise problem, So I bought the Atomos and the adapter to work with Raw files...and I still I have the same issue. !
Hi Sergio, sorry for the delayed reply - just saw the comment now. Noise has little to nothing to do with codec, and everything to do with signal to noise ratio. I could go on about this but I would consult Alister Chapman of XD-CAMUSER.com. He is the foremost (somewhat) independent expert on Sony cameras.
I think the test is partially flaw - you have FS7 PRORES from HDMI ? or through XDCA - if it is through HDMI - it is only 10bit - while through XDCA is 12bit. It would be nice if you could capture PRORES on the O7Q+ via XDCA raw - which is 12bit compress down to PRORES 10bit.
Hi John, thanks for your comment. All data was through the XDCA and with SDI cables.
Question, so the best codec to edit with is proress?
Hi Dance Battles, yes currently ProRes or DNxHD (avid) are still the most preferred codecs.
1. Do I need to XDAC extension for the FS7 to send RAW 4k to a Shogun Inferno, or can the FS7 alone send the RAW 4k to the Shogun.
2. Do I need the extension for the FS7 to recording on the Shogun Inferno in 240fps in HD?
1. Yes, you will need the extension
2. No, but you will only be sending out a compressed XAVC signal, not a raw signal.
so without the XDCA unit, the shogun unit is basically only adding 60fps (180fps internal to 240fps) in Hd? since the camera itself can do 4k 60p internal.... no much bonus, unless you drop $2k on the XDCA and another $2k on the Shogun, just for RAW capabilities... thoughts?
What are you using to grade in Premiere? In my tests, the banding doesn't happen with some stock effects but it falls apart when using Lumetri. I stopped using Lumetri for this reason. The banding isn't there when you use, say, RBG curves and RGB Color Corrector.
Hi CPF - As a whole I haven't had very much luck with grading in Premiere either. There are many factors for this, but I think in most cases Davinci Resolve is the best choice. Also, if you do choose to stay within Premiere, then make sure you have "use maximum bit depth" selected in your sequence settings - otherwise you'll be only working in 8 bit. As for the difference between Lumetri and standard curve selector - I can't comment on that - but again, as a whole, grading in Premiere is best avoided if you really care about the image. That said, 90% of the videos on our channel is graded in Premiere, and often in 8-bit, simply because of the short turn around times. So it's up to the induvidual to determine when is the right, and wrong time to use Adobe.
Yes my settings are correct. I'll fill you in on a workaround that I found. Before editing, re-encode all clips to MXF op1a. That right, pull them all into AME and export right back to Xavc. Send those clips to your clients. The files will be the same size. Pull it into Premiere and the banding is gone. My guess is Adobe isn't reading the xml data in the file folders correctly and this process corrects that. You'll get a levels shift so you'll need to throw on levels effect with output set to 16-235 to compensate.
CAN I USE IT raw recored for my 5d mark iv ?
its work or no
and result is good ?
No hahah
Thanks for this useful test. Though it is not included, have you had any experience comparing ProRes HQ material from the Sony XDCA Extension Unit , vs. the Atoms Shogun Recorder (downscaling from DCI 4K) in ProRes HQ?
Hi Matthew - are you talking about ProRes internal with the XDCA? If so, I did do a test, and I saw no perceivable difference in quality between PR internal vs external. Also, I believe you are limited to 1920x1080 with internal Prores, where you can get 4K prores with a recorder.
Yes, I should have clarified internal with the XDCA. Thanks.
Hi Matthew, no I was only able to compare internal ProRes with the Odyssey 7Q+ ProRes from raw. Results were similar if not identical.
Question: is the XVAC internal footage that you show the same footage you could get without the extension unit?
Hi Jon. Yep, it is!
My take on banding with XAVC vs Prores HQ is just the opposite. I shot both internal and to my Shogun recorder with the FS7 and on shots with the out of focus bokeh of the lake behind my subject, I noticed banding on the Prores footage, but smoother gradients on the XAVC internal recording. Again, with a 600mm lens shooting the moon, I noticed false color bands on regions of the lunar surface that were not present in the XAVC version. To it's credit, the Prores didn't exhibit macroblocking on the moon shot, where XAVC looked pretty bad in that respect.
Thanks @basspig for your insights. It just goes to show there are so many variables in the process that it's hard to know anything conclusively. In reality, we'd probably need highly controlled conditions and full service post house to supervise the process to get consistent & conclusive results. Your experiences are interesting especially around macro-blocking, as this wasn't one of the areas I looked at in my tests (but is quite important). Thanks for sharing!
Try using FCPX or Resolve ... You'll discover zero banding. For some odd reason Adobe Premier just doesn't deliver. Its not the codec here but post processing 😉
can you still record with the normal batteries using the raw recorder ?
Hi Mattes. No, when using the XDCA unit, you have to use V-mount Batteries.
I wonder how much uncompressed raw would take up lol. Like 1tb for 30 minutes. I love that h.265 even at 480p 15mbs second it holds colors so well. 4k is incredible at h.265. I would compare it to raw dng. Lol! I know it sounds surprising I know but I think that's the future. P.s. xavc is just h.264.
4096*2160*12/8*24 = 318 MB/s. So 30 mins is 572 GB.
It's not even funny to compare ProRes to RAW, honestly. If you can't shoot uncompressed RAW do yourself a favor and at least shoot compressed RAW. Like 3:1, 5:1, 8:1, heck 12:1.
Did you test RAW 3:1 and 4:1 ?
-_-
Did you try shooting in various FPS, apertures and ISO ? Any differences?
Hi George. Unfortunately I did not. I had to just pump this one out and didn't have time to do that. Given more time, it would have been great to do though. Next time!
Vistek | Your Visual Imaging Experts I understand you completely. Thanks for your reply.
S-log 3 has a middle grey of 41%. S-log-2 is 32%. Other than that great tutorial.
Year 2020, has Premiere "Resolved" this problem with XAVC codec?
Hi Andres. No idea! But XAVC plays great in Premiere for me.
@@vistek Thanks, I'll have to make some tests. I have a couple of FS7s and absolutely love them but I had noticed banding and pixels on dark areas. Did a Firmware update and all seems good. Great video thanks!
Hello !! Iwluld like to buy a FS7 and a Inferno Shogun! I f I want to do ProRes
Do I need a XDA-FS7 EXTENTION ????
Hi Mathias. Yes, you will need the extension.
What color profile do you record in?
Hi WojtriX, I record in different picture profiles all the time. Different profiles for different reasons!
Vistek | Your Visual Imaging Experts and during this test?
I honestly can't remember what camera I shot this video with. I think it may have been the FS5s? If it was I likely used the CINE profile - which is a nice medium between S-log and Rec.709. But that's just a guess - it was a while ago.
Banding!! I shoot with two FS7 IIs internally and I've never seen banding on my 10bit, calibrated SDI monitor. I fact, I shot 8bit for 10 years and never saw banding. Banding is more likely a function of a poor workflow and/or no Decklink card.
In Premiere you created a 8 bit project :)
also - which lens did you use?
Hello Simon - I used Canon EF L-series glass for this project. I cannot recall specifically what focal lengths were used.
thank you !!!
The youtube compressor output is 8 bit, that's why there is clear banding in all the footage, even 12 bit. The 12 bit obviously less noticeable.
Hi Havbro Media. Thanks for commenting. Perhaps you are correct - but the banding was present in the file before uploading to UA-cam. I can tell you that what you are seeing on your computer/tablet/phone is very similar to the file before UA-cam compression. The differences would be negligible
Doesn't matter when and where you present it. The youtube compressor will convert the files to a 8 bit signal. Have worked with 8, 10 and 12 bit myself, but have never experience banding at 12 bit and some times 10 bit with similar tests. The only reason i can come up with is that i shot on log every time, but even then it shouldn't make a difference in Rec.709.
Havbro, your answer doesn't really make sense. If the UA-cam compressor converts to 8 bit (and doesn't dither properly) then all the files in the test would show banding.
That’s one thing that Apple did well - Prores
Main thing to learn from all of this? Premier is not a good NLE XAVC uses the h.264 level 5.2 which has been around since 2011 so it really isn't that new
Thanks for the insight Martyn! There has been some great discussion on the topic on the FS7 Facebook page that discusses the issue. Some of it around making sure all the "high quality" boxes are checked, and ensuring that your processor is powerful enough. While I did at least a few of those things, it's quite surprising that you have to follow through on a multitude of steps to render the codec properly - when PR seems to just automatically give you the best quality out the gate with no back door tinkering. Here's the FB Page link if you're interested. facebook.com/groups/SonyFS7/1316790895007390/?notif_t=like¬if_id=1476229424186030
Americans are always childish about there references “gremlins” “peanut butter & jelly” “apple pie” lol 😂
Educate yourself. Watch "Gremlins", the movie.
that's 12 bit linear. sucks
If you have nearly zero motion you can use almost any codec 😂😂😂
Is a video camera not a still camera. Complitely useless test.
You're not wrong, but also not completely correct either. Even with a still frame, users will achieve greater image latitude and flexibility with a raw "codec." Similar to the reasons that most big network shows shoot ProRes 4444 (and not, say Arri raw - because 4444 is very close to raw anyways), and not ProRes 422. Is it worth it to shoot raw? Well, that's for each person to decide based on their media storage & post workflow. But to say it doesn't make a difference at all, kind of hedges against the image science.
This woman single or what?