@@prodig3yx When these lists come out it's emphasized it's for top players. It's also frequently mentioned that following top lists and players is not always the best for new players. I would like a tier list of army's controlled by new and casual players with an explanation of why they are ranked there as in what tricks or play styles just work easier and why or why not they translate to high level play.
So good to see Deathwatch actually strong in a way that's not just stupid like anti-infantry 2+ desolators. Fingers crossed GW doesn't nerf them into the dirt again
@ I sure hope so. Got the full 18 living on my shelf! Don't wanna run em because there's a lot of d3 that threatens them for much cheaper than they are.
@@johnkevill470 Aggressors are paying for the sins of Calgar and Storm of Fire. It's the classic GW "unit is good with thing, nerf unit then nerf thing and now unit is bad". Deathwatch is mostly unique datasheets that are good with a unique detachment, it should at least be more balanceable.
I actually really like generic unit Angelic Inheritors. It's so satisfying to play and meld a list around. Two units of Eradicators with Biologis being unable to be pinned down is just awesome.
Yeah clearly these guys haven't got a clue about Sisters play. I also find it so frustrating you have guys like this repeat the nonsense that MD are a problem because they give you the ability to have anything you want when you want it (you still have to roll the dice and when you spend them they're gone). Then in the next breath talk about a faction that gets full hit and wound rerolls like its fine, but that warps the probabilities way more than MD ever did.
@@WeirdWizardDave I would happily give up MD or fate dice as an army mechanic in exchange for army wide rerolls to hit and to wound. Even on single unit, rerolling to hit and to wound is going to do WAY more for you than putting in a single miracle die.
What i took from this video: Special Marine codexes need the Monogod Marine treatment. They keep some SM datasheets (like, just primaris, and maybe even remove some of those). They only use detachments in their codex. Rip the bandaid off already. It won't even hurt those with the collections. They'll still be able to play all 4 codexes with the same collection. This just helps balance.
I think that they just need to tie more rules to the Special Characters. Do something like "Mounted units get the battle-line keyword" for the White Scars named character as an example. It lets the army still have all the same generic stuff if you want it, but if you actually lock in to the other chapters you get something thematic for them. It might not be enough, but at least it would FEEL more like that army.
@@Speeds_Gaming_Corner And what are people doing that wanna play white scars but don't wanna take the named character cause god forbid they play stuff like Crusade etc? This whole focus and fixation on some armies only working with specifically named characters is fucking bullshit.
Thousand Sons really need some kind of command point generation (a pseudo captain), some points drops, and another unit or four (some pseudo-devastators, some jump-pack melee troops, and some infiltrators?). There's plenty else wrong with the list such as DPs not having deepstrike, the daemon rules being stupid (the one battleline per other unit thing should only apply to Epic characters, anything else should be fair game). Then you might see more varied lists. But right now, it's mostly the points values. You just can't get enough on the board easily enough to have any amount of sustain or durability or even reliability. "Having everything go right" applies to every army, just the top two tiers also have "some things can go wrong and I'll still be fine". Thousand Sons doesn't really have that. Only having one detachment (and one "does the same but worse and harder to do" detachment, so like 1.2 detachments) doesn't help either.
Honestly, if we want more variance then our codex needs to either do away with Cabal Points entirely or provide ways for more of our datasheets to interact with them. The changes to things like Mutaliths and Helbrutes with 10th was a decent start, but it's Cabal Point generation that really needs to be more varied. It's the same issue Cabal Points caused us for practically the entirety of 9th edition. Obviously new units would help too. We have to be one of the worst treated factions when it comes to new units - we've only received the Infernal Master since our launch in ~2017.
@DefinitelyAhriman yeah. I tend to agree. I don't mind the concept of base+ sorcs, with 5+sorcs cabal points in 1000pt, 7+sorcs in 2000pt, and 8+sorcs in 3000pt. Maybe give Ahriman 2, Daemon Princes and Termie Sorcs 2, and Magnus 3, but everyone else 1 (including Rubrics and Scarabs). It would have to be play tested, but removing some of the cabal point character tax would probably improve the faction immensely, even if each lesser Sorcerer doesn't do as much. Might be up for a points drop in that case :)
Drukhari are probably the army most desperately in need of a way to generate CP in the entire game. They have no refund mechanics, no free strats, and no CP generation, anywhere in the faction, but they're extremely fragile and have an amazing suite of stratagems they... Can't afford to use...
@@AllThingsCubey True. For TSons it'll just be the joy of the odd extra overwatch or reroll or HI, and we get magic (that we did pay for), so at least we're doing something cool each turn usually (although our strats are pretty bad). I always had it in my mind that Archons did free command, but they do the reverse of that (add cost to enemy strats). So they could definitely use some sort of generator.
In regards to Sisters... they performed worse than Agents this last weekend. I think that's an 'any given weekend' result but it's also a big red flag to me. They actually had *zero* X-1 results in a weekend with a lot of events. That's pretty bad. Perhaps the only army in the game to have none this weekend, actually.
AoW has severely overestimated the power of SoB every single time since codex release. They claimed Sororitas are a S tier faction even though they had a 47-50% win rate last dataslate. Axing the Miracle Dice mechanic was a huge mistake
Yeah honestly the debate about Sisters in the video is genuinely funny to me. The army is in a shocking place, 41% win rate post nerf. Only the Agents of the Imperium are worse. Yes Hallow Martyrs isn't as badly affected as all the other detachments but its still weak and super dependant on the few MD you roll now actually giving good results. I get they're talking about if you take the best meta choices for the army so the weakness of so much of the roster and basically all the detachments except HM is irrelevant to them (which is crazy, but that's what they're talking about). But even so, HM is holding the win rate above utterly atrocious, but its not solid by any definition. Its so frustrating to watch.
@Krachbumm-Ente watching them talk about how the Sisters Grotmas detachment was actually good was pretty wild. I'm really not sure why they thought OC2 Sacresants was such a game changer when OC2 doesn't address the core issues that Sacresants have. I regularly play against a Sisters player and have no issue deleting Sacresants. I don't know what that unit is supposed to do or what role it's supposed to fill. They can be OC2, but they're still T3 infantry with 1W.
Also, Vahl+Paragons and Castigators is maybe a third of your list, and none of them are the sort of “stick around and fight” units. Castigator is iffy, but there’s only so much a tank can do, especially since it’s not insane, and Vahlgons kill maybe two units then die, which is good, but it’s not 400+ points good. Sisters need either a points reduction, or, IMO, a reversion of the Miracle Dice rules. Like, they get less fixed dice than Eldar on worse units.
Sisters turned in the worst performance of any army in the game this past week of events. They were the ONLY faction with no players at X/0 or X/1. Not a single faction had a lower win rate (even agents were better) I don't think sisters are literally the worst army in the game atm (that would still be agents) but they are in dire, dire straights. All the nerfs to BoF ought to be reverted. If the new MD economy is what GW wants, that's fine, but a whole lot of units need to be reduced in price and some things (like righteous rage, or the champions detachment) just need to be flat out rewritten. No one is going to have enough miracle dice to discard three of them to do anything.
I’m not sure about some of the comments regarding Necrons and SSA. Not every star shatter list is running 3 DDAs. I’ve seen a lot of the top Necron players preparing lists with just the one and running flayed ones, tomb blades, stalkers, lokhusts etc. They all significantly benefit from the detachment and can screen/scout/shoot&scoot/deep strike etc. support TSK and DDA shooting.
Yep. The bad starshatter lists play 3 dda and sk. Good ones usually choose sk and one dda and a bunch of melee and supporting units. Maybe one more tanky unit but that's it.
I still think once the meta develops further we'll see DA and Admech drop a rank and Necrons and GK rise a rank. But we'll see. God I hope they give DA a way to build a strong list in their own detachments
Riptides need to go to 200-210 and gain solid toughness/weapon strength buffs to give Tau something that can stand on objectives and be threatening. Some datasheets could stand to go to BS 3, it's crazy we have to pay 60-90 points tags to gain the same shooting consistency other factions get natively....when we're the shooting faction.
I 100% disagree that votann have "solid" datasheets. They are all slightly overcosted because of a very powerful detachment rule where it's assumed that every target is judged at least once. The lack of tokens in the grotmas detachment shows just how bad they are when they don't have access to the tokens, as does the poor performance at the beginning of the edition when only one enemy unit was marked. The most egregious examples; T5/T6 is not "solid" in a meta full of lethal hits, sustained hits, and devastating wounds. M5" is not solid in a meta full of advance + charge, assault weapons, and surge moves. BS/WS 4+ is not solid 2W and no invuln is not solid on TEQs that cost 30/32 pts per model and require a character to unlock -1 to wound. No rerolls to hit anywhere is not solid No smoke for vehicles or inate invulnerable saves on non characters is not solid. No inate reliable ways of generating CP or getting free stratagems is not solid. Transports that can't fit characters attached to models is not solid What we have is a bunch of meh, not terrible units coupled with an amazing detachment rule that evens things out into a difficult but usable faction. They are indeed the poster child of fair solid 40k, but it's in spite of lukewarm datasheets, not because of them.
@stalordinator287 i would agree with you. Mechanicus also struggled horribly in the early edition because the datasheets just flat out didn't cut it compared to others for their price. Mech now has some very good detachment rules to help, but without those rules your skittles just get eaten
Which platform did you subscribe/join as a paid member on? If here on UA-cam, simply login to discord, go to user settings, the connection tab, and click the UA-cam icon and follow the steps to sync your accounts and join the discord!
So no rating for regular chaos daemons?... I guess its probably true that daemons being able to mix together is going the way of Forgeworld and disappearing soon
When you livestream, you dont magically pre-generate timestamps. The community member who usually works on making a set of them has just commented the list of them, and AoW will hopefully be able to update them at some point soon
As Sean said the video cannot be time stamped when the video is live due to the way that youtube shows time. When a video is live it shows time as negative time from the current live moment where as a fully released video shows time since the video started. Additionally, I have a day job and try to get to this ASAP, but I have to go through 2+ hours of footage while also working. If you want to watch with Time stamps come back a little later in the day and you'll likely see them either in the comments or (if Siegs/Jack are free shortly after I finish the time stamps) on the video itself.
They need to reduce every GK unit by 25%. Thats the main issue. When you put them vs other units in other armies they just aren't worth the massive hike in points.
0:00 Sponsors
0:48 Intro
5:35 Adeptus Custodes
8:40 Adepus Mechanicus
13:29 Aeldari
17:17 Astra Militarum
23:25 Black Templars
27:05 Blood Angels
35:34 Chaos Knights
41:28 Chaos Space Marines
45:55 Dark Angels
49:45 Death Guard
54:48 Deathwatch
1:00:10 Drukhari
1:04:29 Grey Knights
1:10:59 Genestealer Cults
1:16:24 Imperial Agents
1:19:13 Imperial Knights
1:21:57 Khorne Demons
1:26:21 Leagues of Votann
1:29:49 Necrons
1:37:19 Nurgle Demons
1:42:43 Orks
1:49:53 Sisters of Battle
1:54:18 Slaanesh Demons
2:00:46 Space Marines
2:04:30 Space Wolves
2:06:56 T'au
2:11:43 Thousand Sons
2:14:20 Tyranids
2:16:59 Tzeentch
2:22:32 World Eaters
2:25:15 Reorganizing Tier List
2:30:40 Superchats
Thank you!
I think a beginner/casual tier list explaining why it's different compared to this elite player list would be super informative.
Agreed!
I don’t even know what your asking for
@@prodig3yx When these lists come out it's emphasized it's for top players. It's also frequently mentioned that following top lists and players is not always the best for new players. I would like a tier list of army's controlled by new and casual players with an explanation of why they are ranked there as in what tricks or play styles just work easier and why or why not they translate to high level play.
This is a channel for competitive players tho thats their niche as some of the best players on the world
@@DrawkD2 i think this isn't the channel for it. There are plenty of channels which do casual content.
Wow Jack taking Blood Angels to LVO with a new list architype that he created.. feels like the good old days.. Lest go Jack. Time for the 2nd LVO win.
So good to see Deathwatch actually strong in a way that's not just stupid like anti-infantry 2+ desolators.
Fingers crossed GW doesn't nerf them into the dirt again
Makes me kinda sad that 6 aggressors are 240 while indomitor kill team is 270. That’s more aggressors being overcosted than anything though
@johnkevill470 they can go down now storm of fire is less op now though
@ I sure hope so. Got the full 18 living on my shelf! Don't wanna run em because there's a lot of d3 that threatens them for much cheaper than they are.
@@johnkevill470 Aggressors are paying for the sins of Calgar and Storm of Fire. It's the classic GW "unit is good with thing, nerf unit then nerf thing and now unit is bad". Deathwatch is mostly unique datasheets that are good with a unique detachment, it should at least be more balanceable.
I actually really like generic unit Angelic Inheritors. It's so satisfying to play and meld a list around. Two units of Eradicators with Biologis being unable to be pinned down is just awesome.
"I think Bringers of Flame is still the way to go"
> bringers of flame win rate this weekend: 20%
> bringers of flame win rate last weekend: 0%
Bruh
Yeah clearly these guys haven't got a clue about Sisters play. I also find it so frustrating you have guys like this repeat the nonsense that MD are a problem because they give you the ability to have anything you want when you want it (you still have to roll the dice and when you spend them they're gone). Then in the next breath talk about a faction that gets full hit and wound rerolls like its fine, but that warps the probabilities way more than MD ever did.
@@WeirdWizardDave I would happily give up MD or fate dice as an army mechanic in exchange for army wide rerolls to hit and to wound.
Even on single unit, rerolling to hit and to wound is going to do WAY more for you than putting in a single miracle die.
What i took from this video: Special Marine codexes need the Monogod Marine treatment. They keep some SM datasheets (like, just primaris, and maybe even remove some of those). They only use detachments in their codex. Rip the bandaid off already. It won't even hurt those with the collections. They'll still be able to play all 4 codexes with the same collection. This just helps balance.
I think that they just need to tie more rules to the Special Characters. Do something like "Mounted units get the battle-line keyword" for the White Scars named character as an example. It lets the army still have all the same generic stuff if you want it, but if you actually lock in to the other chapters you get something thematic for them. It might not be enough, but at least it would FEEL more like that army.
@@Speeds_Gaming_Corner And what are people doing that wanna play white scars but don't wanna take the named character cause god forbid they play stuff like Crusade etc?
This whole focus and fixation on some armies only working with specifically named characters is fucking bullshit.
Thousand Sons really need some kind of command point generation (a pseudo captain), some points drops, and another unit or four (some pseudo-devastators, some jump-pack melee troops, and some infiltrators?). There's plenty else wrong with the list such as DPs not having deepstrike, the daemon rules being stupid (the one battleline per other unit thing should only apply to Epic characters, anything else should be fair game). Then you might see more varied lists. But right now, it's mostly the points values. You just can't get enough on the board easily enough to have any amount of sustain or durability or even reliability. "Having everything go right" applies to every army, just the top two tiers also have "some things can go wrong and I'll still be fine". Thousand Sons doesn't really have that.
Only having one detachment (and one "does the same but worse and harder to do" detachment, so like 1.2 detachments) doesn't help either.
Honestly, if we want more variance then our codex needs to either do away with Cabal Points entirely or provide ways for more of our datasheets to interact with them.
The changes to things like Mutaliths and Helbrutes with 10th was a decent start, but it's Cabal Point generation that really needs to be more varied.
It's the same issue Cabal Points caused us for practically the entirety of 9th edition.
Obviously new units would help too. We have to be one of the worst treated factions when it comes to new units - we've only received the Infernal Master since our launch in ~2017.
@DefinitelyAhriman yeah. I tend to agree. I don't mind the concept of base+ sorcs, with 5+sorcs cabal points in 1000pt, 7+sorcs in 2000pt, and 8+sorcs in 3000pt. Maybe give Ahriman 2, Daemon Princes and Termie Sorcs 2, and Magnus 3, but everyone else 1 (including Rubrics and Scarabs). It would have to be play tested, but removing some of the cabal point character tax would probably improve the faction immensely, even if each lesser Sorcerer doesn't do as much. Might be up for a points drop in that case :)
Drukhari are probably the army most desperately in need of a way to generate CP in the entire game. They have no refund mechanics, no free strats, and no CP generation, anywhere in the faction, but they're extremely fragile and have an amazing suite of stratagems they... Can't afford to use...
@@AllThingsCubey True. For TSons it'll just be the joy of the odd extra overwatch or reroll or HI, and we get magic (that we did pay for), so at least we're doing something cool each turn usually (although our strats are pretty bad).
I always had it in my mind that Archons did free command, but they do the reverse of that (add cost to enemy strats). So they could definitely use some sort of generator.
In regards to Sisters... they performed worse than Agents this last weekend.
I think that's an 'any given weekend' result but it's also a big red flag to me. They actually had *zero* X-1 results in a weekend with a lot of events. That's pretty bad.
Perhaps the only army in the game to have none this weekend, actually.
AoW has severely overestimated the power of SoB every single time since codex release. They claimed Sororitas are a S tier faction even though they had a 47-50% win rate last dataslate. Axing the Miracle Dice mechanic was a huge mistake
Yeah honestly the debate about Sisters in the video is genuinely funny to me. The army is in a shocking place, 41% win rate post nerf. Only the Agents of the Imperium are worse. Yes Hallow Martyrs isn't as badly affected as all the other detachments but its still weak and super dependant on the few MD you roll now actually giving good results. I get they're talking about if you take the best meta choices for the army so the weakness of so much of the roster and basically all the detachments except HM is irrelevant to them (which is crazy, but that's what they're talking about). But even so, HM is holding the win rate above utterly atrocious, but its not solid by any definition. Its so frustrating to watch.
@Krachbumm-Ente watching them talk about how the Sisters Grotmas detachment was actually good was pretty wild.
I'm really not sure why they thought OC2 Sacresants was such a game changer when OC2 doesn't address the core issues that Sacresants have.
I regularly play against a Sisters player and have no issue deleting Sacresants. I don't know what that unit is supposed to do or what role it's supposed to fill. They can be OC2, but they're still T3 infantry with 1W.
Also, Vahl+Paragons and Castigators is maybe a third of your list, and none of them are the sort of “stick around and fight” units. Castigator is iffy, but there’s only so much a tank can do, especially since it’s not insane, and Vahlgons kill maybe two units then die, which is good, but it’s not 400+ points good. Sisters need either a points reduction, or, IMO, a reversion of the Miracle Dice rules. Like, they get less fixed dice than Eldar on worse units.
Sisters turned in the worst performance of any army in the game this past week of events.
They were the ONLY faction with no players at X/0 or X/1.
Not a single faction had a lower win rate (even agents were better)
I don't think sisters are literally the worst army in the game atm (that would still be agents) but they are in dire, dire straights. All the nerfs to BoF ought to be reverted.
If the new MD economy is what GW wants, that's fine, but a whole lot of units need to be reduced in price and some things (like righteous rage, or the champions detachment) just need to be flat out rewritten. No one is going to have enough miracle dice to discard three of them to do anything.
I’m not sure about some of the comments regarding Necrons and SSA. Not every star shatter list is running 3 DDAs. I’ve seen a lot of the top Necron players preparing lists with just the one and running flayed ones, tomb blades, stalkers, lokhusts etc. They all significantly benefit from the detachment and can screen/scout/shoot&scoot/deep strike etc. support TSK and DDA shooting.
Yep. The bad starshatter lists play 3 dda and sk. Good ones usually choose sk and one dda and a bunch of melee and supporting units. Maybe one more tanky unit but that's it.
I still think once the meta develops further we'll see DA and Admech drop a rank and Necrons and GK rise a rank. But we'll see.
God I hope they give DA a way to build a strong list in their own detachments
They need to give the lion ravenwing/deathwing. Give the army a commander that matters and interacts
@noahlockard7101 amen. I love none of the DA detahcments benefitting lion as much as the codex marines detachments
Finally someone understood that necron SSA is so mediocre
When Richard Siegler says T'au are too hard to play 💀
Well, Orks won 5! Events this weekend with 3 different detachments. Or was it 4? I’d probably put them in top tier
Custodes have a few different kinds of play, Solar is solid, talons also solid
so 4 of the top 6 are just different coloured space marines?
Excellent info and tier list guys 🙌🙌
Thanks Jack and Seigs
Bridgehead with indirect has to be the most unfun looking archetype since eldar.
You show up tailored for the matchup or get sent home
Step one. Don't play white scars. We stopped existing.
Riptides need to go to 200-210 and gain solid toughness/weapon strength buffs to give Tau something that can stand on objectives and be threatening. Some datasheets could stand to go to BS 3, it's crazy we have to pay 60-90 points tags to gain the same shooting consistency other factions get natively....when we're the shooting faction.
GW giving the rest of the community what they want for Tau, unfortunately: underpowered so that we don't take their precious bonk-stick toys away.
I 100% disagree that votann have "solid" datasheets. They are all slightly overcosted because of a very powerful detachment rule where it's assumed that every target is judged at least once. The lack of tokens in the grotmas detachment shows just how bad they are when they don't have access to the tokens, as does the poor performance at the beginning of the edition when only one enemy unit was marked. The most egregious examples;
T5/T6 is not "solid" in a meta full of lethal hits, sustained hits, and devastating wounds.
M5" is not solid in a meta full of advance + charge, assault weapons, and surge moves.
BS/WS 4+ is not solid
2W and no invuln is not solid on TEQs that cost 30/32 pts per model and require a character to unlock -1 to wound.
No rerolls to hit anywhere is not solid
No smoke for vehicles or inate invulnerable saves on non characters is not solid.
No inate reliable ways of generating CP or getting free stratagems is not solid.
Transports that can't fit characters attached to models is not solid
What we have is a bunch of meh, not terrible units coupled with an amazing detachment rule that evens things out into a difficult but usable faction. They are indeed the poster child of fair solid 40k, but it's in spite of lukewarm datasheets, not because of them.
I feel like what you said can totally apply to my mechanicus
@stalordinator287 i would agree with you. Mechanicus also struggled horribly in the early edition because the datasheets just flat out didn't cut it compared to others for their price. Mech now has some very good detachment rules to help, but without those rules your skittles just get eaten
Where do you place demons as chaos undivided?
I agree, anyone can beat anyone. This has been a meta that focus alot more on personal skills as oppose to list building, which is a great thing.
Any idea if War Room subscribers have access to the Discord? Subbed a few days ago and would love to take a look at that BA list from Jack.
If you are a paid subscriber you get access to the discord. Regular subscribers do not get the benefit.
Which platform did you subscribe/join as a paid member on? If here on UA-cam, simply login to discord, go to user settings, the connection tab, and click the UA-cam icon and follow the steps to sync your accounts and join the discord!
cool discussion!
"votaan mining the gold in germany" lol
Noo my Nurgle Daemons 😢
So no rating for regular chaos daemons?... I guess its probably true that daemons being able to mix together is going the way of Forgeworld and disappearing soon
New oath is dumb, but Guilliman handing it out twice makes it stupid. Oath needs a change or Guilliman needs a change
Timestamps where.....?
When you livestream, you dont magically pre-generate timestamps. The community member who usually works on making a set of them has just commented the list of them, and AoW will hopefully be able to update them at some point soon
As Sean said the video cannot be time stamped when the video is live due to the way that youtube shows time. When a video is live it shows time as negative time from the current live moment where as a fully released video shows time since the video started.
Additionally, I have a day job and try to get to this ASAP, but I have to go through 2+ hours of footage while also working. If you want to watch with Time stamps come back a little later in the day and you'll likely see them either in the comments or (if Siegs/Jack are free shortly after I finish the time stamps) on the video itself.
1st
They need to reduce every GK unit by 25%. Thats the main issue. When you put them vs other units in other armies they just aren't worth the massive hike in points.
DBones comments best part