the chart for calcharo is slightly wrong ;-; I was using jinshi's base atk(413) instead of calcharo(438) which is 25 lower. It actually changes the results into the atk%'s favor. my bad
@@rudranathchakraborty5665 so this was my particular case for Calcharo, but my newest vid goes over this and 44111 again. for a jinshi. But my results were Low Invest lvl 90 "Jinshi" + "Age of Harvest DMG % DMG 43311(Atk 4 Cost) 131986 119.94% 43311(2x Spectro 3 Cost) 127289 115.67% 44111- 110044 100%
I'm pretty sure one of the biggest reason is the somewhat low crit all across this game compared to other games. The crit rolls on echoes is pretty low and also in weapons stat. In genshin for example, we have higher crit rolls on the artifacts, weapons and even character ascension. That makes crit has a higher value than atk, meanwhile the low value of crit on wuwa made it so atk can somewhat compete. And it's very good, especially with the struggle of leveling up echo plus actually hit the good stats.
yup. "high" crit rate in wuw is around 60%. In genshin and other games you can reach 100%. i think an interesting test would be to try and compare 44111 echo set up with double crit.
Changli's high base Atk is why running Fusion/Atk% in 43311 is so cracked for her if you don't have a lot of Atk% substat rolls and on top of that she already carries up to 40% fusion dmg bonus in her kit as well as having highest base Atk in the game.
Yeah, this is why I'm considering Attack set on her and likely if I keep her on Fusion doing ATK% ER instead. She's got basically every stat she needs inbuilt. As long as you can ult every rotation you not only get 40% Fusion but also a huge ATK% buff. It also makes her insanely flexible as you can roll any 3 cost you find to try for crit (not recommended but you get the point).
@@sayurisakiEN Performance wise, you still want to run her with Fusion/Atk%, in fact it's her best dmg set given equal substats. If you are thinking about Atk%/ER, then better to then simply run her on Moonlit for Encore or Geshu Lin/Camellya when they come out, since ER main stat echo is too big of a dps loss to keep running her as clapper of cheeks. Unless it's somehow has cracked sub stats to be better than Fusion piece.
man i don't know... My changli with decent buff from teammate , can hit as much as 120k with her burst. Is it even possible to hit 120 without crit at all? with a full attack build? there are people crazy enough to test this?XD
@@WastedTalent83 Do you know what Early/mid-game means? Proper crit build will always be better late game when you have full set of 5 star echoes with good stats, but around level 60, crit build vs atk build legit doesn't make big difference.
yinlin's weapons rn is def the best general rectifier as there's not too much competition. We do gotta remember it does have a lower base atk being at 500 rather than 588, which means you are getting slightly lower benifits from atk%
So glad to see you also do withering wuthering waves content? I got into it for changli and was in love and overwhelmed with the amount of combat mechanics and the echoes confused me. Love the videos, keep going! :D
If u got any questions, feel free to ask in any of the vids comments and I'll do my best to answer. Just make a new comment though cuz the way that the sorting work on comments kinda sucks and I may miss it if it is like a reply, but also may not :)
I've been noticing this as well and seeing that there are break points essentially. I was super slow in leveling stuff and trying to see how far Echoes could go for cheap and noticed that every crit breakpoint also had an equivalent attack breakpoint. In Genshin terms this would be the same as their 2CR : 3ATK% : 4CD ratio. On top of this you could get drastically higher ATK% with Support Sets that gave you an insane boost to all damage unless you were super end game crit. Since Crit and Tuner rolls are so sparse its a lot harder to guarantee a good crit and there are so many other stats to roll. ATK can always be useful paired with the other Deepens and stat boosts giving you a lot more flexibility. Been meaning to make a video on it but this is also why I recommend main stats on the 3 costs. You already get 5pc set bonus and likely Echo boost, you can just go double ATK% or one ATK and one ER for more damage or consistency. Guarantees you stats and much easier to gradually raise your stats.
@@AXLDark To be fair even with double crit on 4 and 5 that piece would only be decent due to what first 3 rolls were, excluding ER since it's the most goated stat until you hit the rotation breakpoint.
crit is still better because of all the atk buffs the game has, there isnt buffs to crit damage or crit rate, unless its a constelation or passive exclusive to the character you are playing, but still, pure atk on this game is better than on genshin for example, but still not optimal, since the more atk you have, the less you gain on actual damage potential vs a crit build. since the crit builds will scale exponentially the more atk you have, and atk builds wont scale that much.
Attack is your base damage and crit damage is your multiplier on your attack by the percentage of your crit damage. So basically crit is a boost for your attack but you have to have a high percentage of rate like 70 or above in order for you to utilize the crit damge.
yep pretty much, though i find it difficult to get a descent ratio without a cr/cdmg weapon and a cr/dmg echo rough. generally speaking, ur only getting like - 60/120 with a 2x crit everything and only one of the above.
Thank you for this. I’ve been wanting to build my changli off atk% instead of pure crit (cuz it’s unreliable unless at 100% CR). I’ve seen and heard of various tests where atk% wasn’t much worse than crit.
Atk% Changli is amazing to get yourself of the ground, but CDmg Changli is a different breed for late game scaling. Played both builds and Atk% is quite good up to ~lv80 (for lv90 ToA bosses), but there is much lower ceiling for it. Best of luck, building the Queen.
@@FutayuriShironekoThis is pretty much always the case. Atk% builds vs Crit is basically comparable until you’ve got quality echos, at which point crit usually pulls away.
@@nfrance999 That's generally true, but in Changli's case, it's even more so, since she has Highest base atk in the game, meaning she has the best atk% scaling in the game.
Thank you for the video. What I took from this video is not to worry about getting ATK rolls on your gears because ATK is a great *substitute* for Crit stats; feel free to correct me on this, English isn't my first language, so I might be misinterpreting 😅 I hope you can get back to this video with better gears and levels so the results can be more consistent 👍
u got it exactly right👍 so getting like a echo with CR+CDMG substats is generally around equal to one thats CR+ atk% substat for our 5* characters. and if u got one that has CR + Atk% + flat atk, its actually rly gud
Typically in any of these games with stats like this it’s best to not invest heavily into one stat only because there’s multiple modifiers. For example if you already have buffs elsewhere for atk % it will have diminishing returns eventually compared to other stats. So going for .. atk % Crit damage crit chance glacial dmg /havoc damage etc Resonance atk It will multiply on top of eachother. Overall with how many sub stats there are you’ll be pretty evened out no matter what you run. The modifiers are important though if this game multipliers each of them. Would recommend just using chat gpt to calculate everything because it streamlines the process. Base atk or atk % will be best usually because it’s at the start of the multiplier chain. It just depends how much you’re getting relative to what your other options are out there.
yep a good balance is the way to go. I use chat gpt for a lot of stuff but like does it actually work well with doing this type of math cuz if so, that's pretty funny/cool
I saw other people saying that atk is not as bad as we think. Even flat atk has good values when rolling for substats. That being said, I used this info to build my Changli with Lingering Tunes. Turns out that Changli gets a lot of values with the set because of her S5.
@@yun3_ Maygi also said that flat atk is better compared to other substats like reso skill%, basic atk%, etc. because those percentages gets diluted in the formula. So, most likely, our best options for substats are: E.R, crit%, cdmg, atk%, flat atk. most likely, a perfect echo should contain these 5 substats (4 if we already have enough E.R)
@@MikuscarShiro yeah thats 5 best stat to always look for, its also swappable different char(resonance on jinhsi i.e will be shit in spectro rover, while being only a bit better or equal to atk%)
In fact, I didn't consider weapons with crit damage to be better, unlike crit rate. This game already has a base crit damage value of 150. But the crit rate is only 5. It is especially important to raise the crit rate for some characters like Jinhsi. The lack of crit on one of her full forte attacks in the Tower of adversity cannot be replaced by any attack.
this games crit is a multiplicative value unlike hoyo games where they are additive. but if u did come from hoyo games, that 150cdmg is = 50cdmg in hoyo games. but i def agree with u how raising crit is important
@@yun3_ Wow, this important. So crit rate/dmg (1/2) is not calculated exactly like in hoyo. Is this crit rate/(dmg - 100) for optimal build or something else?
Nice vid.. I was planning on pulling for Zhezhi weapon but I got the cosmic ripples early in standard at 20 pulls and thought it looks nice enough for her. Imma start saving for Camellya instead
I dunno, I have differing experiences. Perhaps I played Calcharo too much but for example Jhinsi's super elongated attack animations and the stance change always throw me off guard. Besides that Calcharos counter hit after perfect dodge is very snappy with good range, where as most other characters lack in that department. (Sometimes severely, like Rover or Jhinsi or changli if you want to get the stack)
i actually freaking love calcharos normal dodge counter. the i frames are actually long af and ur right, the range is super dang high. ik ppl be complaining about how dodge counter= dmg loss bc u dont do big slam at the end, but like me personally, i do the counter like 6 times in a row
okay this is fine and all but how do you know you have a good attack piece? the answer is you don't because you have to spend the exp and tuners to unlock substats. in what scenario is it advisable for people still working on their account investment to put their faith into a non optimal stat. you yourself just stated that you spent everything trying to get a matching atk% piece. Now you don't have any more resources and can't keep rolling other pieces for other units because you decided to get a decent atk% piece when it could have a crit piece that could be easily universal everywhere. Crit is a another part of the damage formula, and working towards unlocking that will help players in the long run, because the attack pieces will be phased out by better crit pieces, so why waste the already minimal echo resources we have?
the thing is, its just like an cdmg echo. we wont know until we roll. when farming 4* cost echos, many ppl rn are looking for either cr or cdmg. this means that hp, def, healing, atk, is useless for them. so a 2/6 chance to get something nice. But, if u were to add atk% now its a 3/6 chance to get something useable. yes, i spent ngl like 300ish tuners preparing for xiangli yao, and was rolling both cdmg and and atk 4 cost. so rather than a 1/6 chance, i effectively got a 2/6 chance to get a nice echo for him. while ur 100% right crit being better in end game, thats only after u get literally perfect everything. even then, atk is still just as good, being only a percent or so off. so imo u dont really waste resources as both crit and atk are rly gud in regard to echos, but u save a lot of time bc u have a higher chance of getting what u need. for weapons, i believe my point still stands that future atk% will still go hard
Yeah like the guy said. Atk is just anpther option. People have gotten a lot of atk pieces on their 4 cost and just dont roll them thinking its trash. This just gives them more options
Again, not really. It's easy for echo availability to outpace resource availability. Echo levels/tunings are waveplate gated and are generally obtained in ways that also farm more echoes. Meanwhile you can get new echoes without spending plates. It's been my experience so far that my echoes with correct main stats are in excess, while my level up materials are the limiting factor. I might choose to level an atk% piece, after I run through the resources to level the three crit pieces I have waiting on standby. Not to mention all the on-set dmg% pieces also waiting to be leveled, and the on-set atk 1 costs waiting to be leveled. There's no reason given current resource availability in my opinion to be leveling some suboptimal main stat piece. You have to gacha the stats anyway, so why start behind?
@@undeniablySomeGuy yah good point. I have loads of unupgraded echos cuz the lack of tuners. If i were to say compare dmg% and atk% for the 3 costs which is also similar, im telling rn I have rolled everything for havoc and lightning(3 costs matching the element+ atk). I'm leveling anything I can get cuz they are again very similar in performance. I just have more opportunities to get something gud 👍
I'm planning to make a video on it but one thing to note is that you're never wasting an ATK% piece. You ARE wasting an elemental damage piece if it rolls poorly. For example, If I roll an Attack Percent Spectro for Spectro Rover early it can just go straight onto Jinshi after she's out and potentially be used as a crutch for other sets if they don't have good rolls. In my testing you really only need about 50-60 Elemental Damage before you shift focusses. Conveniently you get this purely from 5pc DPS set. After that you should go for 44111 with both support sets OR 43311 with either double Main Stat or Main Stat + ER. The damage difference is massive and ATK% really doesn't ever become bad so it can sit in your inventory forever. Sadly my Danjin hasn't found a single Attack% 3 cost yet 😭 Most characters have certain buffs in their kits as well that informs what stats you want and don't want. Lion Boy for example gets 50 Glacio on burst and likes Attack Set so you can have an ER 3 cost without losing anything and then whatever you find for the other. Conversely, this is why ATK set is NUTS on top of being the most flexible set in the game. The sheer amount of attack from 5pc + Abomination Echo is insane. On top of that any ATK carry can use it rendering any Tuners used valuable on more than one char. In this case you *would* want elemental damage to make up for not having it in set however the flexibility of it makes it reasonable. This game is ALL about Balance and making your Tuners and Rolls count for more than just one character so utilizing the three generalist sets and more general stats is ESSENTIAL. Worst case you can move the Attack% onto another character with a 2:2 setup while you upgrade the rest. You can't for elemental and 3s are notoriously hard to farm and upgrade anyways. Also why 44111 is much stronger end game as most of your needed stats are guaranteed! Finally I don't get the argument being made here because you're saying you could have gotten a decent crit piece but this slot has no crit main stat so regardless you're rolling something, its the same tuners regardless. EDIT: Upon rereading I think its being referred to about the 4c. While yes Crit can be better theres an argument to be made that ATK will always add power while the amount of power that'll be added by a crit piece not only relies on the Tuner rolls but also the stats multiplied. No attack with 100% crit is pretty bad and you NEED a certain amount of ATK per threshold. If you max out a crit rate one and have 30% crit in your build you're effectively only profiting from it 30% of the time while ATK has 100% uptime. Like said in the video Crit is ONLY the best at HIGH investment in ALL your pieces. Its the cherry ontop. That being said I also value Crit more than ATK% for one reason and thats the support sets. They're insanely good and having both on your team nets you 40% Attack. So with that you can kinda get the best of both worlds without any investment. So I can agree to some extent on the OP. I will say tho you get quite a lot back for putting it into another echo so long as you don't go all the way to 25. 5-15 is salvageable and worth seeing what it rolls.
so in wuwa u actually multiply ur dmg by 150% so say 10000x150%=15000. this is actually only a 50% dmg increase. while in genshin and hsr, u actually add the crit damage. so 10000+50% so a 150% in hoyo games is a 2.5x damage increase while u need to have 250% for that in wuwa
@@yun3_to be simplified, the character has a 50cd and 150 cd in GI n WW and attk 2000. Then DMG calculated in GI is (2000*(1+(50cd/100))) and in WW it's (2000*(150cd/100)), both gives same DMG output.
@@doedoel035 yeh took me a while to realize until i actually sat and did the calcs myself and found out my atk% stacking had a bad return on invest, my philosophy for basic dps calcs so far has been atk stack > elemental% > atk%
Interesting video and it definitely made me see atk percent in a new light, however with how little resource we have at the moment especially f2p, I'll keep sticking to the tried and true method of crit 4 piece, maybe you can supplement the video with a side by side run on tower of adversity (with exact combo if possible) to really hammer down the comparison, because all of this is great on paper but i really wanna see some field testing
yah sure np. i’m gonna hit lvl 60 soon and may make a video then to comparing what u had this video and 44111, cuz even rn perform better with that set up. my only issue rn is my cr cdmg echoes are 2x crit, er, flat atk, and just juiced out. while i cant get a decent atk echo for the life of me
A significant problem with this analysis is that there are easy ways of getting multiple ATK% buffs (Rejuvenating/Moonlit/Verina/Baizhi), there are NO ways of getting Crit buffs (at least currently). This decreases the value of having ATK% buffs vs. CR buffs. I agree in general that ATK% is more valuable in this game than other games comparatively to Crit due to the low amounts of CR and CD you can get in the game (as there's no way to overstack on CR and CD and you get a max of 5 bonuses each in CR/CD plus ascension and weapon values). With the overall, significantly lower CR and CD values (e.g., 22 vs. 31.1 CR for the artifact/echo, 8 vs 19.2 CR for ascension stats), and overall, crit is not as valuable in WuWa compared to ATK% as it is in Genshin.
@@yun3_ Well assuming Verina and Rejuv buff, the % difference between generic CR/CD weapon becomes about 2-3%. And if you add in Moonlit, I think it becomes about 4%. The real difference maker for the exclusive weapons for non-signature weapons are the 12% generic DMG buff.
I really hope u enjoy the game :) my advice is to not rly upgrade blue or purple echos. u can def get by using the bare minimum all the way to lvl 40. after lvl 40, where u get gold echos, is where the grind begins 👍
yah. It would be gud option AS LONG as they got a nice base atk like 800-900+ imo. you still need a decent amt tho and can’t just fully ignore crit👍 also for it to be “optimal” the 3 costs should be dmg%
Some questions from my smol brain 1. Is this also good for substats or only main stats? or depend? 2. Is that mean best sub stats will be atk, atk%, crit dmg, crit rate, energy regen? 3. How about dmg bonus substats like "basic atk", "heavy atk", "liberation", "skill"?
1. this is for both main and substats with it really depending on ur base stats or not. (if 5* char and 5* weapon, atk rly gud) 2/3. yep. according to ua-cam.com/video/Tj-fpSd22vk/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Maygi , even flat atk is better than the dmg%. :)
Just wanted to add, I noticed you used an "L" as a separator for your title. There is a key directly next to your closed bracket ']' if you hold 'Shift + \', you'll make the actual divider you were looking for '|'. A small tidbit but that was irking me in the title lol.
@@yun3_ Well im a programmer by trade and that key when used twice '||' is used to represent what we call a "logical or". In code it basically is a way to tell a computer to check values of X or Y based on the conditions given. Example Below: # if the number is bigger than 10 or less than 20, print the number if number > 10 || number < 20 print(Number)
I literally have been so frustrated with my echo farm, substats roll and how costly the leveling up process to the point that i ignored the fact that i could alternatively run a full atk set on my dps. Do you think it is better for Encore (basic atk dps) or Cal (pretty much bust dps) to run full atk set ? Thank for the video. This is like exactly what i need to remedy the pain i feel after investing this much time in gacha games.
I want to say there's 3 routes to go. Currently for me, I've actually found 44111 to be best for Calcharo, which I make a vid about. So rather than farming 3 cost echos which are a pain, i personally think this is a rly gud alternative But if u plan on sticking with 43311(which ik u need to with encore) If u are going a cr weapon, U can run 4atk,3dmg%,dmg% or 4 cr/cdmg, and ur 3 costs can be atk or dmg% if u do/dont have a 5* weapon. i can claify more if u need :)
Yeah, i chose the 5* standard sword for danjin (i feel like she can unga bunga all content even with mid build). So i dont have 5* weap for Encore. Cal i have the battle pass sword tho.
Also how much each stat would it be for a well-built character ? I saw a lot of showcases with 2k+ atk with a decent CV but i dont think i can possibly build like that.
@@nguyenngoi793 our 4 star characters do have pretty low base atk genshin.gg/wuthering-waves/character-stats/ and as such, I would recommend crit more for ur danjin, but the 5* weapon is kinda balancing it out. either way, just go by roll value imo if u don't want to mald :) same thing for calcharo bc his 4* weapon
@@nguyenngoi793 I have 2x crit for my dps' now and think have a pretty solid idea of echo progression. imma just use calcharo cuz i also used him with the 4* bp at one point.so with ur crit weapon and just dookie relics. so with only the weapon and calcharo, ur cr/cdmg ratio will be sitting at 25cr/66cdmg with the 4 cdmg traces unlocked. so next u choose ur 4 cost echo, and either u go cer echo with 49cdmg/66 or 25cr/100cdmg. so itll be better to go with the cr echo. now ur sitting at 49 66. After that, what u can do is simply roll echos and keep the ones that have cdmg. If they roll cr and other nice substats like atk or dmg%, keep it. If not, keep rolling till u got all 5 echos with just cdmg. (this is excluding if u got any 2x crit which is gud). So now that u have a 5 cdmg rolls, ur build at a baseline will be 49cr/(66+40.5(5cdmg rolls)). Thats a good 1/2 ratio. After that, u can slowly start replacing ur echos if they got say 2x crit or like 5 usefull substats ex.(cdmg, atk%,atk, er, lib dmg%). hope that helps :)
It seems like in this game you don't get very much ATK% stats from base echo stats, compared to genshin or honkai, where usually a DPS would have an ATK% piece and a flat ATK piece. Here you just have two 1 cost ATK% pieces.
the chart about unbalanced crits wasn't clear; is there a "cutoff" for when atk% > crit? for instance, some math guys from genshin back in the day said basically if you can't hit that 40:80 at least with rate:dmg, atk% is the better bet.
I dont know the exact cut off or have like this “golden rule”, but we know that for calcharo and his high base atk and my chart later in the video that a 1/3ish ratio and 1/2ish ratio are pretty neck and neck. but we can see with an unoptimized build that has a 50/100 with high atk is > the build with 50/150ish. my personal belief is always measure a build in the amount of good rolls it gets, regardless the rolls. So in genshin/hsr terms, ur RV(roll value)
@@yun3_ The 5 set bonus is lower than % bonus of just one gold tier 3 cost echo(no drop off and no requirement for this buff)it also offsets the missing 1 cost echo try it yourself.
@@datuputi777 from my personal tests, I used calcharo again with his skill, this time with 2 lightning and 2 attack 3 cost echos. We get 574220. That being compared to the crit echo, its around 11.6% less dmg. If I had 2 pc lingering thunes and 2 lightning, it may be like 10.5 dmg difference
@@yun3_ I'm trying really hard to raise It as well, I can't get consistent crits even at 76 with my Changliand Jihnsi at 74 (tbf I could get close to 80 with the weapons maxxed out as I still have Union lvl at 53), I have yet to touch my Rover 😭
@@yun3_ I got lucky with some godsent 3 point pieces for both, I'm absolutely unlucky with the 4 and 1 pieces (the only low crit one Is probably the Heron on Jihnsi but It has ER, RES SKILL DMG and ATK% with 6,3 cr 12,6 cd)
You can't really just examine this in a "solo", aka vacuum, environment. The reason is because crits amplify any gains. When your "gains" are small, you won't see a big improvement, but when your "gains" are large, you see a sizable improvement. I used lvl 90 Calcharo and lvl 90 ages of harvest, with Verina atk buff, rejuv set atk buff, moonlight set atk buff, ages of harvest dmg bonus, electro set dmg bonus, Calcharo ascension stats, double crit rolls and 1 atk% roll all at the median value you mentioned and normalized dmg. Using a CD 4 cost like you, the base dmg comes out to be 10815.4 with 69.8 CR and 291 CD. Now using a CR 4 cost instead, the base dmg comes out to be 13829.3 with 91.8 CR and 247 CD. This is a whooping 27.9% increase, not the less than 1% difference that you saw. All I did was add in the missing buffs that should have been included and actually optimized the crit values by switching over to a CR 4 cost. Ok maybe not moonlight atk buff, which would drop the difference down to 17.2%. Which is about a 10% drop and this very roughly corresponds to the drop in total atk% buff from 136.5% to 114% As for the reddit post about the dmg loss because you aren't doing 1:2. The entire argument is hinged on one core underlying assumption, and that is your CR and CD values ALWAYS comes in a 1:2 ratio, which is simply not true, because the substat values comes in a range. There is no guarantee that when you roll an 8.1 CR substat, that your CD substat is automatically 16.2, it could be 12.6 or it could be 21. Out of the 8 possibilities that CD can roll, there is only 1 case where it will be in a 1:2 ratio to your already rolled CR substat. Essentially, the 1:2 crit ratio is just a logic fallacy that the mass majority of the people have, and this is because the early genshin theory crafters popularized this when they were calculating the theoretical maximum, which only happens in the very extreme rare chance that you rolled max on every substat, which does indeed form a 1:2 ratio, but it's false outside of that very narrow situation.
hello. what ur saying is true but when ur base number that is being multiplied is low, multiplying it by a lot wont help much more. I appreciate the detailed comment but am concerned about if u watched the video? It was about ATK vs CDMG? not cdmg vs cr? Regardless, The reason why the builds were 1% off is because I balanced the builds as mentioned in the video? I wouldnt be comparing a (ex 5 200 vs a 30 150 build as the 30 150 would easily win) also, i apologize but dont believe that the damage difference is that wide and that ur math may be wrong somewhere. this goes to that reddit post saying differing from not using a 1/2 ratio won't completely change ur damage and will only be a few percent off. here's my genshin acc and u can see how even without a 1/2 ratio for some of my characters, I can still place super well, besides the build being gud ofc. akasha.cv/profile/857573471 For the reddit post, it is not only focused on the 1/2 ratios as u can move around in the parabola if u so wished ex having 1/1.6ratio. It's simply stating the theoretical builds and how differing from 1/2 will affect that damage, aka not a lot. A perfectly balanced build(1/2) is the most mathematically optimal build and shouldn't be disputed? here is a simple example. 5x5= 25 . adding 2 numbers, we can do either 7x5= 35, 5x7=35. or 6x6=36. As u can see, it is an increase but very slight I also don't understand where ur saying a 1/2 ratio is hard to get? I already got it in this game for multiple characters and they def arent maxed rolls crit rolls, just 7.5 avg on all 5 pieces which is below avg? the only reason why it doesnt stay that way is bc my cr weapons. but without that. like 65/130? I dont mind discussing more if u need clarification👍
@@yun3_ Alright here's a wall of text attack. But the TL:DR is you missed the main points of what I'm getting at. Let me reiterate. 1.) If you do not include all the buffs and just examine stats in a vacuum, you "can" arrive at the wrong conclusion. 2.) There is no "golden / perfectly balanced / most optimized" ratio, there is only maximize the product of CR times CD. You are only seeing a very small increase, less than 1%, because you disregarded alot of ATK% buffs from other sources, namely, rejuv set provides 15% and moonlight provides 22.5%. You are right that the numbers are off in the CR and CD comparison I had before, the difference isn't that high, I read off the wrong column, my bad! That said, the underlying concept remains the same. Let's look at the example you want, ATK vs Crit. I'll layout the numbers using the same parameters outlined previously. With a ATK% 4cost char base atk: 438, wpn base atk: 588, total atk%: 169.5%, flat atk: 350, total atk: 3115.07, total dmg%: 112%, base dmg 6603.95, CR: 69.8%, CD : 247%, avg normalized dmg: 13380. Now change to a CR 4 cost, char base atk: 438, wpn base atk: 588, ATK%: 136.5%, flat atk: 350, total atk%: 2776.49, total dmg%: 112%, base dmg: 5886.16, CR: 91.8%, CD: 247%, avg normalized dmg: 13829.3. 13829.3 / 13380 = 3.4% increase, not the less than 1% increase. Is it significant though? That's up to you. I'm not saying you calling this 3.4% difference insignificant is wrong, but it certainly wasn't the less than 1% difference, as that's almost 4 times less than what it would have been. Let's go further on and say one of your 3 cost is using ATK% instead of DMG%, while still using ATK% 4cost, your avg normalized dmg becomes 12621.6. Comparing this to CR 4cost with dmg%, 13829.3 / 12621.6 = 9.6% difference. I'd say that's significant, but again you might say it's not and that's totally fine, but it certainly wouldn't be 4 times less like 2.45% or something. Anyways, the actual number is just for illustration purpose, the main point is that you can't just disregard external buffs and examine things in a vacuum. Because you get more sources of ATK% buffs much easier, you should include them, and not just throw them away, because every stat except for cool reduction and CR (up to 100%) has diminishing returns. So stacking more of the same stat is not as effective. As for the 1/2 ratio, you also missed my point. My point is that there isn't a "golden" ratio you use, you simply multiply CR and CD together, whichever is higher gives you better output. You even showed this in your own example, 5x7 is not higher than 6x6, and look, this is not in your 1:2 ratio, it's a 1:1 ratio. If it's your 1:2 ratio, it should have been 4x8=32 which is not higher than 6x6=36. Your own example refutes the "golden" 1:2 ratio that you are claiming. There is no "balanced" ratio, there is only maximized product / area of CR and CD. I think you understand the optimization problem, you are just too hung up on the "CR and CD comes in a 1:2 ratio", when in reality they rarely do. I'm not saying making your final CR and CD numbers to show as 1:2 ratio is hard to get. What I'm saying is to get 1:2 ratio on your INDIVIDUAL echoes / artifact is hard to get. Because you only have a 1/8 chance on each piece, and you need to repeat that on your 5 pieces. You need to realize that when you swap pieces, your total amount of stats is also changing, you can't directly compare two configurations because they can have different amount of total stats. In order to figure out which configuration is better, you multiply CR and CD together, whichever one is higher is better. If it turns out that it's a 1:2 ratio, cool. If it's not a 1:2 ratio, why does it matter? It's got a higher number / product / area. Lastly, the ranking on akasha needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Take your Xiangling for example, ranked 10, that's pretty awesome actually. But the leaderboard shows her only doing 44545 pyronado vape. But then someone else's Xiangling that's ranked at 262 has a higher vape dmg at 50037. But anyways, it's not about 1:2 ratio, 1:3 ratio or 1:5 ratio, ratio does not matter. The only thing that matters is multiply CR and CD together, whichever one gives higher number is better (everything else equal that is).
fuk. i def slightly fuked up too, i think i was using the calculator it very wrong or b. the calc is wrong in itself. regardless, i took it away from the desc just in case using my same numbers and doing the math, At the solo scenario, the damage difference is a between cdmg and atk was .002% 6680x67.5)+(2260x33.5)=526610 cdmg 6481x67.5) +(2624x33.5)=525362 atk now adding 350 atk with verina + glow 2610x33.5) + 7715.15x67.5=608207 cdmg 2974x33.5)+(7345x67.5)=595416 atk its now a 2.14% in favor of crit this checks out now ur math also looks about right at a glance. again, the issue is that ur not balancing out the stats. if u go to my video, u can see all the different stats with an (atk, cr, cdmg weapon)are within the same ratio all sround 67.5 cr. when u messes with that, yes, it will deviate to CR’s favor. im faily certain if u were, again, not test atk vs crit RATE, but rather atk vs cdmg, im sure you find that it will be again around 2% with full buffs so yes ur absolutely right that in a vacuum can change the results, BUT, the idea still stands that atk% rivals crit. again, the assumption is that we have is that we got 5cr,5cdmg,5 atk% rolls. the more you miss of any of these substats, it will start rolling closer to atk% and in a raw situation, would actually win. but yes, ur point is correct on not disregarding external buffs. which is why i showed a verina and moonglow test in the vid itself ;-; for ppl who wanted to see how atk% buffs could impact our results. what that example means in game terms means this say we start at 60 120 ratio. if we were to add 40 Crit value somewhere, how would we do it. though u can add it however u want for this case ill just use the 3 exaggerated scenarios we can go to 70 140 or a 80 120 or a 60 160. regardless, the 70 140 would win, though not by a lot. when u say “there is only maximized product of cr x cdmg” that is exactly what the balanced ratio is ;-; so while we cant compare it usually in game, we can do it with math yes. thankfully i actually did have the necessary pieces to do it in game tho. the point is getting slightly less or more CV wont gut ur build or change the outcome too much, unless u LITERALLY GET all min roll cdmg and max roll cr then maybe. for my xiangling, u gotta compare her to other xianglings ranking at 240 er. its like why fighters have different weight classes, as having er means less dmg (not in practice cuz er super important again, ratio does matter. like mathematically speaking. i do not understand exactly what u mean by just multiply cr x cdmg? do u mean the raw number itself? if so, u are literally missing the other half of the equation. again i appreciate the time u took to test and write this cuz this has taken me like 40 minuites. im willing to discuss more if ud like though i dont know how exactly u would refute what i said
@@yun3_ Here’s another wall of text attack. But I just want to say, good on you for the discussion, most on youtube these days can’t hold one. First of all we all make mistakes, I did too and I’ll probably make more so it’s always good to have someone else to double check. As long as we recognize the mistake and understand why, it's all good. But anyways, all I’m saying is that you can’t just examine stats in a vacuum, because even if the results are correct, it can lead to incorrect conclusions from being drawn. Yes you did include Verina’s atk buff and rejuv set buff, but didn’t include the moonlight set buff, which is an extra 22.5% ATK. I don’t understand your fixation about ratios or must compare to CD and not CR. The question is simple, given the parameters that are set, what is the difference between using a CR 4 cost, CD 4 cost, ATK 4 cost. I’m assuming this is the question you were setting out to answer in the first place? And if that is the case, then you will need to keep every other variable the same, and only change 1 variable to see what the difference is, in this case, switching the main stat of the 4 cost echo. The reason why I compared to CR and not CD is because CR gives 13829.3 normalized dmg and CD gives 13733.5 normalized dmg. Because both CR and CD increases crit dmg, you get to choose. I choose the higher one because that’s the most optimized configuration. You can’t say I’m only going to look at CD because it has the smaller difference compared to ATK%. This is what is called cherry picking, in where you choose results that are favorable to the hypothesis you are trying to prove. Again, I’m not saying your results are wrong, or your conclusion is wrong. What I’m saying is that your methodology is not being holistic enough, and that can lead you to the wrong conclusion, and you should be aware of them. The crit values you are listing, why are they always in a 1:2 ratio? It’s because you are using the badly understood CV system, where you multiply CR by 2 and add to CD. But look, the fact that you are multiplying CR by 2 is introducing this 1:2 ratio into your system. You’ve made sure that you are now ALWAYS adding CR and CD in a 1:2 ratio, when you convert from CV back into CR and CD. It would be fine if all your CR and CD rolls always comes in a 1:2 ratio, but they don’t. So you can’t just go “I’m going to add 40 CV and I’m going to divvy it into a 1:2 ratio”, because this rarely happens. Go look at your individual echo / artifact, the majority of them will NOT have a 1:2 CR and CD ratio. As an example I look at my fusion set, they have. 4 cost - 9.3 CR, 17.4 CD - not 1:2 ratio 3 cost - 6.9 CR, 15 CD - not 1:2 ratio 3 cost - 7.5 CR, 16.2 CD - not 1:2 ratio 1 cost - 7.5 CR, 19.8 CD - not 1:2 ratio 1 cost - 8.7 CR, 17.4 CD - 1:2 ratio When you take a CV number and then divvy it in a 1:2 ratio, you are working with the very special case of where all your echoes are like my last 1 cost echo, they DO come in 1:2 ratio. But the general case is that they do NOT come in a 1:2 ratio, as is the case with the other 4 echoes. Now this does not mean it is always the case that a configuration closer to being 1:2 is always going to be worst. In fact, because you are averaging over a range of 5 plus other sources, your final sum of CR and CD does actually tend towards a 1:2 ratio. This contributes to what gives people the illusion that 1:2 is the end all and be all, when that’s not the case at all. If you want to say “there is only maximized product of CR and CD” is the balanced ratio, ok sure. Given two configuration of numbers, CR1 and CD1 vs CR2 and CD2. How can you figure out which one is better? Apply some sort of ratio to them? No, you simply multiply the two sets of numbers together and whichever one is higher is better. There isn’t a ratio you apply here, you do not need a ratio. As for the akasha thing. Like lots of people will say oh look my char is ranked top 1%, it must be a good build! But then it actually doesn’t do more dmg. Like you are top 1% yes, but top 1% of what? It’s not top 1% dmg output, top 1% dmg output where you have 240% ER? But why do you need 240% ER when in rational team? And if you aren’t running it in a rational team so you need higher ER, is the leaderboard even accurate then? This is what I mean, the leaderboard of akasha is a “dumb” system. It doesn’t take into account alot of these considerations. When I say multiply CR by CD, you take the face value of CR you see in the character sheet and the value of CD minus 100 (because the way WUWA presents it) and you multiply them together. This is not disregarding the other half of the equation, because you are keeping them the same, so you can use the normalization technique. Essentially, all the ATK%, DMG% and flat ATK values, I am going to roll them into a single normalized value, and I’m going to represent it by A. Because A is the same in both cases (because you are keeping everything else the same, that’s how you compare the delta between changing from 1 stat to another), they cancel each other out and you are only left with a number that tells you which CR and CD configuration is better (whichever one is highest). It doesn’t tell you by how much, just that one is better than the other. Ratio does not come into play, it does not matter. It only manifest itself as important because at theoretical maximum (when ALL of your rolls are MAX rolls), all your CR and CD substat rolls become 1:2. But theoretical maximum is, for all intends and purposes due the amount of RNG required, not very useful.
Appreciate the detailed responses and discussion I must say again. If I make some mistakes, feel free to correct ofc :) Yes, that is very true. I did not include rejuv because I personally dont use it and know that duo dps’ dont use it either and would prefer verina and the rejuv as the support So the statement that I made in the vid/title was that “atk rivals crit”. Depending on the scenario and investment, it would favor either side. Which is why I do believe it rivals crit, especially if u need every atk% buff and substats to be able to start reaching these “diminish returns” Yes, what ur saying is true on only changing 1 variable to see the difference. The issue is that depending on the scenarios, each other the echos can potentially win. If a random new build has say little cr, then cr would always win. If the build has really high cr substats and no cdmg, then we’d want the cdmg echo. And if both stats are high and we dont have atk, then we’d want the atk echo. So to keep it fair, we ideally have to match the scenarios and change not just 1 variable. Sry didnt want to come off as chery picking. The first response with the cr/cdmg number seemed off. And I as such used the numbers provided in ur second response which compared cr and atk. I do appreciate u now giving the other numbers now tho. I will say again, the reason why it needs to compare cmdg and atk is because it changing the cr variable can really change the results. With the atk/cdmg echo. We only trade those 2 stats. With cr, we’ll have to do some more converting and as such end with an unfair result as the ratio does matter www.hoyolab.com/article/308585 . again, i understand it’s not much but it does matter. Regardless, your math looks right and I cant disagree with you there. I will say you saying my methodology may not be holistic enough is 100% fair. My results I did was again, my in game test and then the different scenarios at an endgame build and a mid game build. I did not include the external buffers with the end game build. My 2 reasons is 1. Most endgame builds wont have 5cr/cdmg 5 atk. I assume most will def have the cr/cdmg but maybe not atk. And vice versa, who know depending on the person. Ex. my calcharo build is 5x crit all and 2 flat atk. No atk%. If i did have verina + rejuv + the other one, it would equal right around to if I had 5 attack % rolls. I understand what you are saying which is why I had to add a few disclaimers in the video stating the stiations and team buffs and etc could really impact the results. But at a base line/raw, it gives us a really good idea. I try not to spread misinfo the best I can and will change things as to prevent this So the cv system is just a way to better understand your crit. For ex. Is 23 cr better than 23 cdmg? Without using the cv system, we’d think “well the numbers are the same, so clearly they are equal”. But that just simply is not the case. So again, the main issue isnt it needing to be in a ½ ratio, but rather understanding what the numbers mean/how it’ll affect ur dmg. Again, u can look at my akasha system stats and the dmg increase per substat for any of my characters. It is based on getting an averaged roll and seeing the % dmg increase. The reason why is to have a set standard to rate a build. That is why we use averaged stats when we do things in theory. So I understand why ur saying just multiply the cr x cdmg. The big issue is that u then miss out on the non crit damage and other factors which are really important. The non crit hit matters, which ur current method does not apply to. The thing is for akasha, it does do more damage. A 1% build will do more than a 2% build. The reason why is shown for “some” characters tier lists bc investing in er directly means less damage if not emblem. Again, just like my comparison with weight classes in fighter. Rational honestly is pretty weak so I use XL elsewhere, raiden my hyperbloom trigger lol. Akasha sets the parameters for many different scenarios taking into account different team comps and weapons depending on the character. It is really really well made. Unfortunately the creator hasnt been updating for a while smh. Again, I understand the logic but your ratio is important www.hoyolab.com/article/308585 which is why i dont believe ur math in this aspect would be correct.. I hope this chart helps :)
06:12 your tl;dr wrong it's not that you go atk% just because high BASE atk (mainly cost3) since they both still within same scope of calculation (only Real difference is how same value FLAT Atk is better on lower Base hero than higher one and it's outside of the calculation) it SHOULD be wether on the trace tree or Sequence has some change to Damage(ele), atk buff, or crit value . First example is how Jihnsi and Changli losing minimal damage amount using 1 ATK% C3 is due to her tree gain Element damage but the Real example in this case is because Calcharo tree has CDMG instead CR this makes CritRates rolls more value to him than CDMG compared to other 5*. try on your sheets with calcharo using CR wep + CR echo it will be having gap since the differentiator is Chalcharo CDmg ascension also verina(&heal set ) is works much more on higher true Crit value since won't be diminshed as much . even more if you were utilizing some S6 4* 2nd TL;DR simplest calculation between build you can do is = "atk * crit damage * (1-critrate) " to compare build. higher cdmg lower crit looks better at DPS(damage per screenshot) vs high crit med cdmg but in actuality its same. real example 88.8/125.5 vs 64.5/174.1 on your video. both at 111% and 112% true crit dmg. the cdmg win by 0.7% this true crit value throw the RNG out of the calculations hence the "cdmg not value if it doesnt crit" out of the windows 07:21 it's not going poop. it looks like bad to each other but both has same crit value if you just cdmg*critrate it. i'm not saying atk% bad , you can go for it. i'm just correcting you about crit value works
lets use the highest atk% and flat atk substat roll for this, so 11.6% atk vs 70 atk say you had an abysmally low base atk bc 4* weapon and being a 4* character with 500 base atk. 11.6% x 500= 58 atk, which would be lower than the flat atk. so flat atk would be better here. but now lets go to around the average atk of 5* and a 5* weapon, around 1000. doing the same thing again, its 116atk vs 70 atk. as such, we are getting more value from the atk% here than the flat substat. we then can use this logic to atk weapons and echoes youre right on how self traces can impact the results for my results. but as we can see in my graph, it’s already depicted how calcharo would do better with more cr in the situation than cdmg though it was very slight. the reason why it is so close is bc i compensated build using the weapon. i wasnt going to compare a cdmg+ cdmg vs cr + cr yes. external buffs could change the results such as verina diminishing atk, albeit it is not by too much i’ve seen that formula a few times but don’t believe dmg should be calculated in that manner bc it’s like multiple like a weird average and isn’t his it would work in the actual game. thankfully chat gpt can explain this better “The formula you provided, ATK * CDMG * (1 - Crit Rate), does not represent a standard calculation in most games or systems that use Crit Rate and Crit Damage mechanics. When you multiply these together, the formula seems to calculate some form of "non-critical damage expectation," but it's mixed with critical damage in a non-standard way.” asking, “is this formula better “ (cdmg hit * crit rate) + (non cdmg hit * non crit rate)?” “Yes, the formula: is a standard and correct way to calculate the expected average damage per hit, taking into account both the chances of landing a critical hit and a non-critical hit.” i also made a calculator in my 44111 video if u wanna use it. lastly, so they should provide around the dame damage bc, we can simply convert the crit stats. what im talking about is that it just doesnt look pretty visually. that 1/2 ratio is just nice to look at. in genshin terms , that 70 140 and 90 180 just look nice. 70 220 is just eh in my eyes. hope i explained my pov well
meanwhile my jinhsi with 36% cr and 303% cd using 4 cost with 1 high cd roll along E and Ult dmg bonus +atk% did better than the echo with double crit (high cr, low cd) tested in floor 4 for multiple run, it's just more easier to 3star floor 4 with the higher cd one compare to double crit
@@R1L1. It would've been fix if the double crit echo had higher roll and other useful stat instead of HP and def. The fact that my high CD roll echo had resonance skill and liberation smg bonus plus atk% as sub stat actually makes it harder to replace Still I do still had to do like 3-5 rerun just to get 3 star on floor 4
People really be worrying themselves over 1% or 2%?!? Also does Zhezhi's ult snapshot when casted? Cause Cosmic Ripples buff only lasts a few seconds, so if it doesn't snapshot, I don't think it's that great tbh.
it really just depends on the situation but yah, everything is generally within a few % of each other lol. I dont exactly know if Cosmic Ripples works off field, but even assuming it doesnt, it is still a great ftp alternative for Zhezhi due to it just being a stat stack 👍
Yinlin's Stringmaster does refresh it's buff when Yinlin is off-field, so it's not impossible that Cosmic Ripples would as well. Obviously can't test it until Zhezhi is out.
i sheeted this calcs with jiyan and jinhsi with their weapon but with cost4 atk% and the difference was more or less 6% dps loss, its pretty high 😅 i don't think is worth wasting resources on Cost4 ATK%, better to chill and wait till you drop a good CR or CD.
@@Nameless_TV ooh. U got a REALLY optimized set up. the closest I have to ur set up was my calcharo with 2 flat atk, so basically 1 atk% roll, and verina with rejuv. No moonlit and missing out on 4 atk% subs which the result had 2.5% less dmg. I still feel like being 3-5% less with a lot of atk% sounds about right :)
@@yun3_ i did the calcs with a calcharo with Verdant with CR cost4 vs Verdant with ATK% cost4, with same substat that i used for jiyan and jinhsi and same buff, the result was even bigger like 9% dps loss.. if i remove all atk% substats its 7,23% dps loss, if i remove moonlit too its 5,76%.. but generally almost every dps like encore, jinhsi, jiyan, calcharo like to be played with a moonlit user in teams and for endgame you want atleast 1 atk% or atk flat on every piece.. So... its not worth.. its a huge dps loss for endgame and a waste of resources.. ps: i think the calculator in your video description is not working correctly, you should consider to use the formula in spreadsheet or another calculator (the maygi one is really good and its free and constatly updated)
wait that sounds about right. if ur using verdant with calcharo and a cr echo, even with 5 cr substats, i believe ur cr is 45. this is even worse bc calcharo has a cdmg ascension while jiyan and jinshi have cr. with an ATK echo, u will need a cr weapon. For the tests, if possible, ull need to have everyone near the same cr cdmg ratio as it can skew the results a lot. i appreciate the feedback and may use the calc u mentioned if it’s not too complicated for my tiny brain
yep and same for future characters with unique scaling. i honestly don’t know the exact scaling but heard that yuan wu actually has really gud def scaling(idk if it’s true or not)
not at all bro. Crit rate and crit dmg plays a big role for dps characters. I already tried it to Jiyan . ATK stats vs crit. Crit stats deals twice to trice the damage than ATK stats
@@yun3_ so true, i have jiyan's signature on him and my ult never crits with 65% crit rate, it deals so little dmg when nin crit Unironically considering 44111 to get 90 cr lol
@@yun3_ oh nice, I'm honestly scared I'll brick my account with how many echo mats I've spent on her lol. My standard is way too high after getting awesome rolls on my havoc rover set XD
My account is bugged i cant level up my calcharo it the sense of when i fighr thundering menthis i gain the materials but i cant use it to level calcharo up it says 0 out of the number i need when i have 10 of them
@@yun3_ yes thats whats the problem i have got the materials for thundering memthis but they dont show up on my calcharo upgrade screen and says 0/4 i think
@@gockartzz8272 I just upgraded my calcharo yesterday from killing the guy in the plains in the desert. UNLESS, they changed the upgrade material. Make sure to go to calcharos ascension screen and click on the ascension material. It will guide you on where to go on the map. also are u sure it's called "thundering tacit core"
@@gockartzz8272 I have not heard of that before then. The best thing to do is probably contact customer service in the feedback section. I don't know how long it takes but is ur best bet imo
To sum it up, attack is still not as strong as crit build, but it's cheaper and more reliable. If you can do crit build absolutely do it, but if you can't then it's fine
you just have low crit, you should try doing those calcs on encore. and this thing "high base atk means atk% has more value", it also means the crit has more value, crit also scales from base atk, i did not dive into your math but you are clearly doing something wrong, people are calcualting those crit rolls and they have value like 6% more dmg and atk rols have like 3%, so if you compare rectifiers then cosmic ripple gives like 50% more atk than yinlin weapon gives crit, while the rolls on atk can be about 15% higher then on crit, so its just not enough.
i had double crit everything ;-; so ig like technically cuz like everything scales on each other, but atk% is directly proportional to ur base atk. you can see my newer vid where i did the math in game at lvl 90 and my pinned comment which has the correct results.
@@yun3_ "atk% is directly proportional to ur base atk" the dmg gain from crit is also directly proportional to ur base atk beacuse the crit is the base atk but with crit dmg value instead. the way i see this is those atk% weapons means you will get lower crits, so the crit rolls are like less valueble, but that means that there are more valueble on crit weapons, so atk% weapons can be good if you dont have good echos, but the better the echos the better crit dmg weapon and actually the rolls on atk are about the same as on crit rate, but atk% weapons are still not strong enough
@@koks49045 so what im actually doing is more so accounting the opportunity cost that going atk would have. so seeing which next substat would be better for us. so ex. say we had a 600 base atk which is rly low. a high attack% roll (11.6%) would give us 69.6 atk while a high flat atk gives us 70. so flat atk here gives more dmg than atk%. but then we need to see how much 1 atk% roll would give vs a crit roll. and depending on where ur build is and what substats u have, it will depend on but yes to ur last point but also depending again on the build. if u got a lot of crit but no atk, u may be better off going some atk%
@@yun3_ you will always have atk% like atleast 50% and at that point the crit rolls are better, value of crit rolls does not decrease, if you have 100/50 cr/cd then addtional 10% crit dmg gives you 3.3% more dmg, when you have 180/90 cr/cd then additonal 10% crit dmg gives you 3.4% more dmg. but overall im not struggling with dmg anyway dont want to read calcs
man... sorry but, numbers mean crap in this game :D It all comes down to what echo you find and what stats roll. SO if you want to make a fair video showing the difference between attack and crit. You should be able to farm 2 whole different set on the same character, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT XD One set, full crit/crit damage build And one set, FULL attack i mean, all echoes from 1 to 5 attack main stat and only crit/damage on the sub stats. i see way too many criticals so math aside is very confusing to say the least. Not saying you're not right, im just saying the test i see in this video don't look very "fair" and easy to understand, even tho you show the math behind it.
so the thing is, the best way to increase damage as i and some other ppl have noted is to increase all your stats in a relatively equal distribution. by full stacking a particular stat, you are missing out on the potential gains that you would get by going say another stat. going say in theory all crit vs all atk, crit would win, as you will have at least some attack to work with cuz ur base atk and weapon. so if your damage was simply say atk x crit. full attack could look like 10atk x (1+0crit) vs 4 atk x (1+3)crit or whatever the combination is. some other comment explained this much better than i can but it was like “investing in a whole new bucket increases ur dmg a lot more…”
For aalto, bc he is a 4*, he’ll have 4 star base stats which is generally a bit lower than 5*. Bc of that, that means crit would be better for him, though atk% is still pretty gud.
2:50 huh iirc having higher base atk doesn't favor atk%, base atk is just the base number of ur formula and having it higher just equally advantage any multiplier, if you had 0% bonus atk and 0% cd with 100%cr, 1%cd and 1% bonus atk would have the same value. whatever is your base atk. what only really do higher base atk (beside increasing your total damage overall) is that it nerf flat atk value considering the same number of flat atk would be equal to a tinier amount of atk%. it's a common bait tho so i forgive u. baited a lot of people on the release of dr.ratio by exemple aha.
so basically, when it comes to the base of stats which i will use atk. base atk is pretty important. the reason why is bc the atk% stat is directly calculated by ur multiplying that % by ur base atk. so a character with a base of 500atk will only get 50 atk from 10% atk while a character with with a high base gets 100 atk from 10%. hope thats clears up some stuff
@@yun3_ and that doesn't advantage atk% over any other multiplier because both benefit as much from it. i.e : Y x 2 x 2 than Y = 13, 780 or 1000, it doesn't advantage any multiplier. if you add more to any of those "2" MV it will have the same value.
@@kirby9427 its more so the opportunity cost that is present. u will ex. be choosing 50 or 100atk vs 16.2 cdmg. if i it was 50 vs the crit, id just go crit, bit if it was 100 vs crit, id honestly prefer atk
@@yun3_ it's because you translate it in flat atk, but it's %. meaning 16% bonus atk = 16% cd if you crit. having 500 base atk or 1000 will not change anything. your %atk multiply an higher base atk but your crit too. only the multiplier distribution decide what is worth or not at the end. (and special interaction)
@@kirby9427 im probably misinterpreting what ur saying so here is a vid kinda explaining the diff of ark% and flat atk. ua-cam.com/video/Tj-fpSd22vk/v-deo.htmlsi=RNJ9kc_KgPDC-E21 we can see the comparison with havoc rover and danjin with atk% and flat atk which differs due to the base atk stat
2:15 I can’t understand what any one of those numbers mean. Also isn’t crit rate echo still better than cd% echo when with a crit rate weapon cuz 1:2 isn’t reached?
sry, this is using genshin/honkai numbers, where the crit starts at 50. Wuwa writes it a bit differently and starts at 150 instead, but both effectively do the same things.
@@arunjosephshadrach9539 so essentially the crit rate can go to 100. So u can think of crit rate like this. In 100 attacks, how many would crit. With my CR in the video being 64. that means in theory, 64 of those hits would crit and 36 would not. as such, by adding the total damage of all the attacks, we can see which one is better With a crit rate or crit damage echo, if u have a crit rate weapon and decent artifacts, U generally will not be able to reach 1:2 as u will overshoot one of the stats. But if ur build is not that good, getting CR echo and CR weapon can def help a lot (ex. if u have cdmg substat rolls)
That's my main issue with WUWA. With everyone relying one crit and crit rate, it's basically whomever has the highest dmg multiplier or highest base dmg can be meta.... which... makes it redundant to have multiple characters. Hence why Jinshi, Jiyan, are on demand because their multipliers are so good.
@@yun3_ Crit rate and crit damage is a monkey brain food. You roll a dice with every attack: when you win, monkey brain goes "Woho!", when you loose monkey brain goes "brrrr". You can even gamble with stats more crit rate or bigger crit damge. Perfect mechanic for gacha, that's why it's often monetized.
i think if u got enough crit from substats, u may want to switch to crit cr/dmg echo. my math was using 2 lightning dmg bonuses 3 cost, but if ur also running atk% 4 cost with atk 3 codt echos, u may be losing out some dmg not going crit bc of being unbalanced
@@rckyrick7425this is more dependent on the character and how much dmg% or atk they get from their kit. for most 5* units and their high base atk, its near equal, with dmg% usually winning by like 1/2 a percent. i believe i saw that someone like changli does best with 1 atk and 1 fire
Ieven if you have a bad ratio like 30:270 it’s still more dps than stacking atk bc diminishing returns sadly I e extensively tested it on all characters and have data if anyone wants it crit sadly is the best way to get more dps
I do not know at what point cr will start getting better than atk but know at the RLY low investment lvls, atk will be better. Using a super super exaggerated case, say a 5 250 ratio, u basically will never crit. So buffing ur atk/dmg bonus would obviously win. But once u start getting more crit, thats where it would change.
gotchu. I would say the soft cap shouldnt be an issue in wuwa just bc how scarce the stats are ex. going from 1600 > 2000 atk is a 25% increase while 2000 > 2400 atk is a 20% increase for the same value. and most characters will not be reaching absurd points of say atk. like 5k plus
But we all can agree that after 4 years of 100% RNG gearing progression, we know it's a scam and you just grind whatever you get until you win and then stop right? We all know that RIGHT? 🤣
Great video btw, I was aware of this from years of MMOs where it always takes a lot longer than you expect for CDMG to outpace ATK considerably, but it's always good to see the math.
@@yun3_ Agree, the excitement in the RNG, just a backup pity system helps long term value. What are your thoughts? Do you prefer it being completely random? Genuinely asking because I'll stop suggesting it if it actually ruins the game for some people, I'll just play different games. 🤣
@@nottyseel949I wish pulling new characters was less rng/ or just a lower soft pity to allow more ftp/low spender players to have access to more characters. in regards to echos and artifacts/relics(genshin/hsr). though i know many hate the system (i totally get if they get shafted often), i personally like it. When i finally get that goated piece, im like yummy, what a sight to behold. I personally think u can say what u want right, if u like that rngness, but know u may get some not nice comments lol
6:29 “crit only gets good at high investment”. I disagree At low investment you have such a big base crit dmg that crit rate rolls increase average dmg significantly. I agree atk>crit dmg when crit rate is low.
@@arunjosephshadrach9539 Ah i see what's wrong. In wuwa, at 150 crit damage it's not a 2.5x multiplier like genshin or honkai star rail. It's actually multiplying ur entire thing by 150%. so esentially if u did 10,000 dmg with youd do 10,000x150%=15000, which is actually only a 1.5 damage increase. While hsr would've been 10000x2.5=25000. So you actually dont have a big base crit damage in wuwa, with it only being actually 50%. Hope that helps :)
@@yun3_ so the ADDITIONAL damage you get from the whole critting business (on average) is cr%*(cd% - 100%). The 1:2 ratio to look for is then cr/(cd-100) = 1/2. I've been hit with enlightenment. ThANKS a lot o7
@@arunjosephshadrach9539yep. This messed me up too but then i saw somwone talking about it. It should be spread more tbh cus most players ar gonna think that 150 crit dmg is rhe same as in the hoyo games
Base attack is completely irrelevant why do you keep harping on about it? Atk% and crit chance % give the same bonus if it's 5 atk or 5000, base atk matters for flat attack rolls only But yes, generally atk% is close or even better than crit rolls when your build is not min-maxed or you're running solo with 0 buffs (Also cosmic ripple is just complete trash compared to stringmaster, just based on the effect alone. Extra 36% attribute/atk bonus completely blows any calculations out of the water)
it would actually be the other way around. say u had a 3 cost atk echo providing 30% atk. with a 5 star char with 5* weapon, itd be 300 atk with 1000 base atk. but with 4 star characters and a 4 star weapon with maybe 750 atk, they same 30% only gets us 225 atk all limited 5* weapons are sizably better than out standard weapons, with some being more/less depending on who. with zhezhi having most her damage coming from basic attack, itll br a rly good weapon for her, same way the lustrious razor is good for calcharo 👍
@yun3_ The relative damage increase remains the same regardless of the base attack. For example, increasing from 750 to 925 is a 1.3x increase, and increasing from 1000 to 1300 is also a 1.3x increase. The base attack itself doesn't affect this ratio. Similarly, with critical chance and damage, a 30% crit rate and 200% crit damage result in a 30% increase in damage, whether your attack is 750 increasing to 925 (1.3x increase) or 1000 increasing to 1300 (1.3x increase). The reason attack percentage (atk%) is less effective is because it adds to all other forms of damage increase, such as skill%, atk%, elemental damage%, etc. Only the Deepen effect is unique because it multiplies at the end, making it OP Also Zhezhi for sure is going to have a broken signature weapon, just like every other release so far, making standard 5* average af 💀
@@omegand. so while what ur saying is true, that is only in a vacuum. we are comparing an atk stat to a cdmg/cr stat. So, its actually more like is 10%atk (danjin (263 )+ 4* (387)= 551 x 10%= 51 atk, being as much as a flat atk. this would be compared to say calcharo with the 5* weapon where with 1000% base atk, he gets 100atk. so 51atk vs 100atk vs 16.2 cdmg. ur second point also applies to crit :) while zhezhi will ofc get a great weapon tailored for her, ftps will have a great option in cosmic ripples. And the gain will be more so like changli and EoG > sig rather than like jinshi > her sig. hope that clarified some things👍
@@omegand. On you first part the maths is wrong, 750 * 1.3 = 975, increase of 225, idk what was the point on this but the underlying math is wrong. "Standard weapon is trash" cool? Its easy to get and the video says in this specific case you can make do with cosmic ripples. There is no cope or lie its just facts no on said its better than string master.(i say this cuz you pulled the 36% better which is generally).
@@yun3_yah i seen that link and its just that the math stuff u did is kinda questionable to me and not really explained? thats why id like to go on disc for some clarification so when u make an account send a request @ sweatdropss
ill try my best to explain it here if u dont mind. the top left shows calcharos base stats as well as the substat rolls i will be using. to the right of that, will be the base stats for our 5* weapons. the left just shows the different stats we get from echos that do not include the substats now the colored box where it says “2x crit avg all subs… is just the total of the substats”. after which, i total all the different stats that we get into the different boxes, yellow, red, and green. with these numbers, we then just simply plug it into a calculator which is in the description👍 u can put the different numbers in the calc if u’d like. i didnt do any of the math calcs but the calc did instead
the chart for calcharo is slightly wrong ;-; I was using jinshi's base atk(413) instead of calcharo(438) which is 25 lower. It actually changes the results into the atk%'s favor. my bad
Is it true for jinshi too?
@@rudranathchakraborty5665 so this was my particular case for Calcharo, but my newest vid goes over this and 44111 again. for a jinshi.
But my results were
Low Invest lvl 90 "Jinshi" + "Age of Harvest DMG % DMG
43311(Atk 4 Cost) 131986 119.94%
43311(2x Spectro 3 Cost) 127289 115.67%
44111- 110044 100%
Mid Invest lvl 90 "Jinshi" + "Age of Harvest DMG % DMG
43311(Atk 4 Cost) 183451 114.94%
43311(2x Spectro 3 Cost) 181761 113.88%
44111- 159607 100%
High Invest lvl 90 "Jinshi" + "Age of Harvest DMG % DMG
43311(Atk 4 Cost) 252927 112.88%
43311(2x Spectro 3 Cost) 253947 113.34%
44111- 224059 100%
God Invest lvl 90 "Jinshi" + "Age of Harvest DMG % DMG
43311(Atk 4 Cost) 327234 105.79%
43311(2x Spectro 3 Cost) 333948 107.96%
44111- 309319 100%
I'm pretty sure one of the biggest reason is the somewhat low crit all across this game compared to other games. The crit rolls on echoes is pretty low and also in weapons stat. In genshin for example, we have higher crit rolls on the artifacts, weapons and even character ascension. That makes crit has a higher value than atk, meanwhile the low value of crit on wuwa made it so atk can somewhat compete. And it's very good, especially with the struggle of leveling up echo plus actually hit the good stats.
good points. there’s also no bennet which really warped how atk was seen in genshin
@@yun3_ oh yeah the amount of atk buff genshin has really drag the value of atk% down
yup. "high" crit rate in wuw is around 60%. In genshin and other games you can reach 100%.
i think an interesting test would be to try and compare 44111 echo set up with double crit.
@@3XZDgg i got the echoes for it and can test it rq
@@3XZDgg wow, actually I do more dmg. the numbers look like this (87x7313)+(13x2581) 1942 atk, 87.2/ 283. honestly may make a video on this too maybe
Changli's high base Atk is why running Fusion/Atk% in 43311 is so cracked for her if you don't have a lot of Atk% substat rolls and on top of that she already carries up to 40% fusion dmg bonus in her kit as well as having highest base Atk in the game.
Yeah, this is why I'm considering Attack set on her and likely if I keep her on Fusion doing ATK% ER instead. She's got basically every stat she needs inbuilt. As long as you can ult every rotation you not only get 40% Fusion but also a huge ATK% buff. It also makes her insanely flexible as you can roll any 3 cost you find to try for crit (not recommended but you get the point).
@@sayurisakiEN Performance wise, you still want to run her with Fusion/Atk%, in fact it's her best dmg set given equal substats.
If you are thinking about Atk%/ER, then better to then simply run her on Moonlit for Encore or Geshu Lin/Camellya when they come out, since ER main stat echo is too big of a dps loss to keep running her as clapper of cheeks. Unless it's somehow has cracked sub stats to be better than Fusion piece.
man i don't know...
My changli with decent buff from teammate , can hit as much as 120k with her burst.
Is it even possible to hit 120 without crit at all? with a full attack build? there are people crazy enough to test this?XD
@@WastedTalent83 Do you know what Early/mid-game means?
Proper crit build will always be better late game when you have full set of 5 star echoes with good stats, but around level 60, crit build vs atk build legit doesn't make big difference.
Carlos clone just standing there T posing. menacingly
carlos' half brother was cheering me on the whole fight
in short, Yinlin's weapon is the best weapon in the game because it gives an absurdly large amount of both ATK% and crit rate.
yinlin's weapons rn is def the best general rectifier as there's not too much competition. We do gotta remember it does have a lower base atk being at 500 rather than 588, which means you are getting slightly lower benifits from atk%
i didnt expect to watch such a good video tbh
hehe ty :) I'm not the best with thumbnails but workin on it. glad u enjoyed
Carlcheero: 🎵standing here I realize that he was standing there🎵
🎵 You are just like me, Trying to make history🎵
But who's to judge, the right from wrong?
@@4g3nt06 when our guard is down, I think we'll both agree
So glad to see you also do withering wuthering waves content? I got into it for changli and was in love and overwhelmed with the amount of combat mechanics and the echoes confused me. Love the videos, keep going! :D
If u got any questions, feel free to ask in any of the vids comments and I'll do my best to answer. Just make a new comment though cuz the way that the sorting work on comments kinda sucks and I may miss it if it is like a reply, but also may not :)
@@yun3_ Good to know, thanks so much! :D
I've been noticing this as well and seeing that there are break points essentially. I was super slow in leveling stuff and trying to see how far Echoes could go for cheap and noticed that every crit breakpoint also had an equivalent attack breakpoint. In Genshin terms this would be the same as their 2CR : 3ATK% : 4CD ratio. On top of this you could get drastically higher ATK% with Support Sets that gave you an insane boost to all damage unless you were super end game crit. Since Crit and Tuner rolls are so sparse its a lot harder to guarantee a good crit and there are so many other stats to roll. ATK can always be useful paired with the other Deepens and stat boosts giving you a lot more flexibility. Been meaning to make a video on it but this is also why I recommend main stats on the 3 costs. You already get 5pc set bonus and likely Echo boost, you can just go double ATK% or one ATK and one ER for more damage or consistency. Guarantees you stats and much easier to gradually raise your stats.
Those 2 echo rolls at the end were painful to see.
IT COULDVE BEEN THE ONE
@@yun3_ why did you continue rolling past +3 if there's no crit rolls in the first 3?
@@ayylmao633i’ve had a few miracle echoes come in cluch with the last two rolls.🎰
@@ayylmao633 99% of gamblers quit before they hit big
@@AXLDark To be fair even with double crit on 4 and 5 that piece would only be decent due to what first 3 rolls were, excluding ER since it's the most goated stat until you hit the rotation breakpoint.
Thank you for the information. My carlito's crit stats could make a grown man cry. But atleast the atk is high enough to clear ToA
:) 2x crit + atk on ur next tempest memphis, i can feel it
crit is still better because of all the atk buffs the game has, there isnt buffs to crit damage or crit rate, unless its a constelation or passive exclusive to the character you are playing, but still, pure atk on this game is better than on genshin for example, but still not optimal, since the more atk you have, the less you gain on actual damage potential vs a crit build. since the crit builds will scale exponentially the more atk you have, and atk builds wont scale that much.
just gotta have a good balance of both :) a 300x multiplier x 1 dmg is still smol pp dmg. (greatly exaggerated ik but just an example)
Speaking of a Crit buffer...
:p
Attack is your base damage and crit damage is your multiplier on your attack by the percentage of your crit damage.
So basically crit is a boost for your attack but you have to have a high percentage of rate like 70 or above in order for you to utilize the crit damge.
yep pretty much, though i find it difficult to get a descent ratio without a cr/cdmg weapon and a cr/dmg echo rough. generally speaking, ur only getting like - 60/120 with a 2x crit everything and only one of the above.
You can put it into the formula ATK*(CR*CD+(1-CR))
Thank you for this. I’ve been wanting to build my changli off atk% instead of pure crit (cuz it’s unreliable unless at 100% CR). I’ve seen and heard of various tests where atk% wasn’t much worse than crit.
Atk% Changli is amazing to get yourself of the ground, but CDmg Changli is a different breed for late game scaling. Played both builds and Atk% is quite good up to ~lv80 (for lv90 ToA bosses), but there is much lower ceiling for it.
Best of luck, building the Queen.
@@FutayuriShironekoThis is pretty much always the case. Atk% builds vs Crit is basically comparable until you’ve got quality echos, at which point crit usually pulls away.
@@nfrance999 That's generally true, but in Changli's case, it's even more so, since she has Highest base atk in the game, meaning she has the best atk% scaling in the game.
Thank you for the video. What I took from this video is not to worry about getting ATK rolls on your gears because ATK is a great *substitute* for Crit stats; feel free to correct me on this, English isn't my first language, so I might be misinterpreting 😅
I hope you can get back to this video with better gears and levels so the results can be more consistent 👍
u got it exactly right👍 so getting like a echo with CR+CDMG substats is generally around equal to one thats CR+ atk% substat for our 5* characters. and if u got one that has CR + Atk% + flat atk, its actually rly gud
@@yun3_ much appreciated for the reply!
@@doedoel035 npnp
Typically in any of these games with stats like this it’s best to not invest heavily into one stat only because there’s multiple modifiers.
For example if you already have buffs elsewhere for atk % it will have diminishing returns eventually compared to other stats.
So going for ..
atk %
Crit damage crit chance
glacial dmg /havoc damage etc
Resonance atk
It will multiply on top of eachother.
Overall with how many sub stats there are you’ll be pretty evened out no matter what you run. The modifiers are important though if this game multipliers each of them.
Would recommend just using chat gpt to calculate everything because it streamlines the process.
Base atk or atk % will be best usually because it’s at the start of the multiplier chain. It just depends how much you’re getting relative to what your other options are out there.
yep a good balance is the way to go. I use chat gpt for a lot of stuff but like does it actually work well with doing this type of math cuz if so, that's pretty funny/cool
@@yun3_ it does. I use it all the time with video game math questions now haha just have to be very specific with chatgpt and it does it’s job
I saw other people saying that atk is not as bad as we think. Even flat atk has good values when rolling for substats.
That being said, I used this info to build my Changli with Lingering Tunes. Turns out that Changli gets a lot of values with the set because of her S5.
i watched a vid from a CC called Maygi saying that :)
@@yun3_ Maygi also said that flat atk is better compared to other substats like reso skill%, basic atk%, etc. because those percentages gets diluted in the formula. So, most likely, our best options for substats are:
E.R, crit%, cdmg, atk%, flat atk.
most likely, a perfect echo should contain these 5 substats (4 if we already have enough E.R)
@@MikuscarShiro yeah thats 5 best stat to always look for, its also swappable different char(resonance on jinhsi i.e will be shit in spectro rover, while being only a bit better or equal to atk%)
@@Neretzes yep... aside from being the better substats, they're also ironically generally good for everyone. It's just a win-win situation
As somebody who is a Calcharo main I am happy to hear that he is actually better with attack sets. Easier building for me.
He does well with atk% but make sure u got a good balance of crit and dmg% too :)
It's not, building either crit or atk is equally hard cuz the prob % is the same for both
In fact, I didn't consider weapons with crit damage to be better, unlike crit rate. This game already has a base crit damage value of 150. But the crit rate is only 5. It is especially important to raise the crit rate for some characters like Jinhsi. The lack of crit on one of her full forte attacks in the Tower of adversity cannot be replaced by any attack.
this games crit is a multiplicative value unlike hoyo games where they are additive. but if u did come from hoyo games, that 150cdmg is = 50cdmg in hoyo games. but i def agree with u how raising crit is important
@@yun3_ Wow, this important. So crit rate/dmg (1/2) is not calculated exactly like in hoyo. Is this crit rate/(dmg - 100) for optimal build or something else?
@@tenielhut4587 yep :) exactly right
Great video dude, but still cr > cd > atk, this is absolute
yeah generally true. but ofc it also looks like this cr=cdmg=atk with a balanced build usually winning out
Nice vid.. I was planning on pulling for Zhezhi weapon but I got the cosmic ripples early in standard at 20 pulls and thought it looks nice enough for her.
Imma start saving for Camellya instead
gud luck saving, but yah, cosmic ripples is a great weapon for her
verina attack buffs even work on defense scaling damage lol, so it definitely uses some separate multiplier
the outro dmg buff should apply to everyone but i dunno about that atk passive tho
@@yun3_ im pretty sure it was both from when i tested
when i use calcharo, i always die so quickly. it looks like i'm not alone.
i always gotta reminds myself to not get greedy for the big hits. Cuz dead = 0 dmg
I dunno, I have differing experiences. Perhaps I played Calcharo too much but for example Jhinsi's super elongated attack animations and the stance change always throw me off guard.
Besides that Calcharos counter hit after perfect dodge is very snappy with good range, where as most other characters lack in that department. (Sometimes severely, like Rover or Jhinsi or changli if you want to get the stack)
i actually freaking love calcharos normal dodge counter. the i frames are actually long af and ur right, the range is super dang high. ik ppl be complaining about how dodge counter= dmg loss bc u dont do big slam at the end, but like me personally, i do the counter like 6 times in a row
This is obvious, attack effects your base damage, crit is an amplification modifier.
i most made it cuz of how many CCs really undervalue atk, especially those who come from genshin
okay this is fine and all but how do you know you have a good attack piece? the answer is you don't because you have to spend the exp and tuners to unlock substats. in what scenario is it advisable for people still working on their account investment to put their faith into a non optimal stat. you yourself just stated that you spent everything trying to get a matching atk% piece. Now you don't have any more resources and can't keep rolling other pieces for other units because you decided to get a decent atk% piece when it could have a crit piece that could be easily universal everywhere. Crit is a another part of the damage formula, and working towards unlocking that will help players in the long run, because the attack pieces will be phased out by better crit pieces, so why waste the already minimal echo resources we have?
the thing is, its just like an cdmg echo. we wont know until we roll. when farming 4* cost echos, many ppl rn are looking for either cr or cdmg. this means that hp, def, healing, atk, is useless for them. so a 2/6 chance to get something nice. But, if u were to add atk% now its a 3/6 chance to get something useable.
yes, i spent ngl like 300ish tuners preparing for xiangli yao, and was rolling both cdmg and and atk 4 cost. so rather than a 1/6 chance, i effectively got a 2/6 chance to get a nice echo for him.
while ur 100% right crit being better in end game, thats only after u get literally perfect everything. even then, atk is still just as good, being only a percent or so off.
so imo u dont really waste resources as both crit and atk are rly gud in regard to echos, but u save a lot of time bc u have a higher chance of getting what u need.
for weapons, i believe my point still stands that future atk% will still go hard
Yeah like the guy said. Atk is just anpther option. People have gotten a lot of atk pieces on their 4 cost and just dont roll them thinking its trash. This just gives them more options
Again, not really. It's easy for echo availability to outpace resource availability. Echo levels/tunings are waveplate gated and are generally obtained in ways that also farm more echoes. Meanwhile you can get new echoes without spending plates. It's been my experience so far that my echoes with correct main stats are in excess, while my level up materials are the limiting factor. I might choose to level an atk% piece, after I run through the resources to level the three crit pieces I have waiting on standby. Not to mention all the on-set dmg% pieces also waiting to be leveled, and the on-set atk 1 costs waiting to be leveled. There's no reason given current resource availability in my opinion to be leveling some suboptimal main stat piece. You have to gacha the stats anyway, so why start behind?
@@undeniablySomeGuy yah good point. I have loads of unupgraded echos cuz the lack of tuners. If i were to say compare dmg% and atk% for the 3 costs which is also similar, im telling rn I have rolled everything for havoc and lightning(3 costs matching the element+ atk). I'm leveling anything I can get cuz they are again very similar in performance. I just have more opportunities to get something gud 👍
I'm planning to make a video on it but one thing to note is that you're never wasting an ATK% piece. You ARE wasting an elemental damage piece if it rolls poorly. For example, If I roll an Attack Percent Spectro for Spectro Rover early it can just go straight onto Jinshi after she's out and potentially be used as a crutch for other sets if they don't have good rolls. In my testing you really only need about 50-60 Elemental Damage before you shift focusses. Conveniently you get this purely from 5pc DPS set. After that you should go for 44111 with both support sets OR 43311 with either double Main Stat or Main Stat + ER. The damage difference is massive and ATK% really doesn't ever become bad so it can sit in your inventory forever. Sadly my Danjin hasn't found a single Attack% 3 cost yet 😭 Most characters have certain buffs in their kits as well that informs what stats you want and don't want. Lion Boy for example gets 50 Glacio on burst and likes Attack Set so you can have an ER 3 cost without losing anything and then whatever you find for the other.
Conversely, this is why ATK set is NUTS on top of being the most flexible set in the game. The sheer amount of attack from 5pc + Abomination Echo is insane. On top of that any ATK carry can use it rendering any Tuners used valuable on more than one char. In this case you *would* want elemental damage to make up for not having it in set however the flexibility of it makes it reasonable. This game is ALL about Balance and making your Tuners and Rolls count for more than just one character so utilizing the three generalist sets and more general stats is ESSENTIAL. Worst case you can move the Attack% onto another character with a 2:2 setup while you upgrade the rest. You can't for elemental and 3s are notoriously hard to farm and upgrade anyways. Also why 44111 is much stronger end game as most of your needed stats are guaranteed!
Finally I don't get the argument being made here because you're saying you could have gotten a decent crit piece but this slot has no crit main stat so regardless you're rolling something, its the same tuners regardless.
EDIT: Upon rereading I think its being referred to about the 4c. While yes Crit can be better theres an argument to be made that ATK will always add power while the amount of power that'll be added by a crit piece not only relies on the Tuner rolls but also the stats multiplied. No attack with 100% crit is pretty bad and you NEED a certain amount of ATK per threshold. If you max out a crit rate one and have 30% crit in your build you're effectively only profiting from it 30% of the time while ATK has 100% uptime. Like said in the video Crit is ONLY the best at HIGH investment in ALL your pieces. Its the cherry ontop. That being said I also value Crit more than ATK% for one reason and thats the support sets. They're insanely good and having both on your team nets you 40% Attack. So with that you can kinda get the best of both worlds without any investment. So I can agree to some extent on the OP. I will say tho you get quite a lot back for putting it into another echo so long as you don't go all the way to 25. 5-15 is salvageable and worth seeing what it rolls.
I Always Believed That "Atk" Weapons Have A Great Potential
But What Make Crit Great Is That 150% Base Crit Dmg
so in wuwa u actually multiply ur dmg by 150% so say 10000x150%=15000. this is actually only a 50% dmg increase. while in genshin and hsr, u actually add the crit damage. so 10000+50%
so a 150% in hoyo games is a 2.5x damage increase while u need to have 250% for that in wuwa
@@yun3_ Aah, additive percentages (Hoyo Games) vs multiplicative percentages (Kuro Games), I see...
@@yun3_to be simplified, the character has a 50cd and 150 cd in GI n WW and attk 2000. Then DMG calculated in GI is (2000*(1+(50cd/100))) and in WW it's (2000*(150cd/100)), both gives same DMG output.
To simplify what this guys said if you have played genshin then think its not 150 but 50
@@doedoel035 yeh took me a while to realize until i actually sat and did the calcs myself and found out my atk% stacking had a bad return on invest, my philosophy for basic dps calcs so far has been atk stack > elemental% > atk%
Interesting video and it definitely made me see atk percent in a new light, however with how little resource we have at the moment especially f2p, I'll keep sticking to the tried and true method of crit 4 piece, maybe you can supplement the video with a side by side run on tower of adversity (with exact combo if possible) to really hammer down the comparison, because all of this is great on paper but i really wanna see some field testing
yah sure np. i’m gonna hit lvl 60 soon and may make a video then to comparing what u had this video and 44111, cuz even rn perform better with that set up.
my only issue rn is my cr cdmg echoes are 2x crit, er, flat atk, and just juiced out. while i cant get a decent atk echo for the life of me
@@yun3_ Great, looking forward to it, and yeah substat rolling is a pain, good luck on your rolls
A significant problem with this analysis is that there are easy ways of getting multiple ATK% buffs (Rejuvenating/Moonlit/Verina/Baizhi), there are NO ways of getting Crit buffs (at least currently). This decreases the value of having ATK% buffs vs. CR buffs.
I agree in general that ATK% is more valuable in this game than other games comparatively to Crit due to the low amounts of CR and CD you can get in the game (as there's no way to overstack on CR and CD and you get a max of 5 bonuses each in CR/CD plus ascension and weapon values). With the overall, significantly lower CR and CD values (e.g., 22 vs. 31.1 CR for the artifact/echo, 8 vs 19.2 CR for ascension stats), and overall, crit is not as valuable in WuWa compared to ATK% as it is in Genshin.
yah 100%. I did add the verina buff just to show how even with external buffs, the results were still very very close :)
@@yun3_ Well assuming Verina and Rejuv buff, the % difference between generic CR/CD weapon becomes about 2-3%. And if you add in Moonlit, I think it becomes about 4%. The real difference maker for the exclusive weapons for non-signature weapons are the 12% generic DMG buff.
I believe there is a crit buff; With Sanhua on Resonance Chain 1, Her 5th basic attack can increase Crit Rate by 15%
@@doedoel035that’s for herself
@@doedoel035 I'm talking about giving buffs to teammates, not self-buffs, as those will be resonator-specific.
crit RATE or crit DMG? Cause that would be nice to clear... you mixing both in the equasion...
Oh, just a good amount of both. The reason why the math in the end has me switching the 4 costs around too was to balance the crit ratios.
My 2400 att 232cdmg Jinhsi hits harder than many 2k 270cdmg jinhsies. Attack really goes hard in this game.
double atk 3 cost? My hvc rover has the same amount of atk
The k you so much for this,, I just started the game a few days ago so this will be helpful when I get to the serious character building part:)
I really hope u enjoy the game :) my advice is to not rly upgrade blue or purple echos. u can def get by using the bare minimum all the way to lvl 40. after lvl 40, where u get gold echos, is where the grind begins 👍
so does that mean i can do 43311 with the cost 4 being ATK% on characters that i dont want to build crit?
yah. It would be gud option AS LONG as they got a nice base atk like 800-900+ imo. you still need a decent amt tho and can’t just fully ignore crit👍
also for it to be “optimal” the 3 costs should be dmg%
Some questions from my smol brain
1. Is this also good for substats or only main stats? or depend?
2. Is that mean best sub stats will be atk, atk%, crit dmg, crit rate, energy regen?
3. How about dmg bonus substats like "basic atk", "heavy atk", "liberation", "skill"?
1. this is for both main and substats with it really depending on ur base stats or not. (if 5* char and 5* weapon, atk rly gud)
2/3. yep. according to ua-cam.com/video/Tj-fpSd22vk/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Maygi , even flat atk is better than the dmg%. :)
@@yun3_ thanks a lot, bless your days
Just wanted to add, I noticed you used an "L" as a separator for your title. There is a key directly next to your closed bracket ']' if you hold 'Shift + \', you'll make the actual divider you were looking for '|'.
A small tidbit but that was irking me in the title lol.
will be doing that from now on. HOW THE HECK DID U EVEN KNOW THO????
@@yun3_ Well im a programmer by trade and that key when used twice '||' is used to represent what we call a "logical or". In code it basically is a way to tell a computer to check values of X or Y based on the conditions given. Example Below:
# if the number is bigger than 10 or less than 20, print the number
if number > 10 || number < 20
print(Number)
so basically all you need is to balance attack and crit
yep. balanced builds ftw
I literally have been so frustrated with my echo farm, substats roll and how costly the leveling up process to the point that i ignored the fact that i could alternatively run a full atk set on my dps. Do you think it is better for Encore (basic atk dps) or Cal (pretty much bust dps) to run full atk set ?
Thank for the video. This is like exactly what i need to remedy the pain i feel after investing this much time in gacha games.
I want to say there's 3 routes to go.
Currently for me, I've actually found 44111 to be best for Calcharo, which I make a vid about. So rather than farming 3 cost echos which are a pain, i personally think this is a rly gud alternative
But if u plan on sticking with 43311(which ik u need to with encore) If u are going a cr weapon, U can run 4atk,3dmg%,dmg%
or
4 cr/cdmg, and ur 3 costs can be atk or dmg%
if u do/dont have a 5* weapon.
i can claify more if u need :)
Yeah, i chose the 5* standard sword for danjin (i feel like she can unga bunga all content even with mid build). So i dont have 5* weap for Encore. Cal i have the battle pass sword tho.
Also how much each stat would it be for a well-built character ? I saw a lot of showcases with 2k+ atk with a decent CV but i dont think i can possibly build like that.
@@nguyenngoi793 our 4 star characters do have pretty low base atk genshin.gg/wuthering-waves/character-stats/
and as such, I would recommend crit more for ur danjin, but the 5* weapon is kinda balancing it out. either way, just go by roll value imo if u don't want to mald :)
same thing for calcharo bc his 4* weapon
@@nguyenngoi793 I have 2x crit for my dps' now and think have a pretty solid idea of echo progression.
imma just use calcharo cuz i also used him with the 4* bp at one point.so with ur crit weapon and just dookie relics. so with only the weapon and calcharo, ur cr/cdmg ratio will be sitting at 25cr/66cdmg with the 4 cdmg traces unlocked. so next u choose ur 4 cost echo, and either u go cer echo with 49cdmg/66 or 25cr/100cdmg. so itll be better to go with the cr echo. now ur sitting at 49 66. After that, what u can do is simply roll echos and keep the ones that have cdmg. If they roll cr and other nice substats like atk or dmg%, keep it. If not, keep rolling till u got all 5 echos with just cdmg. (this is excluding if u got any 2x crit which is gud). So now that u have a 5 cdmg rolls, ur build at a baseline will be 49cr/(66+40.5(5cdmg rolls)). Thats a good 1/2 ratio. After that, u can slowly start replacing ur echos if they got say 2x crit or like 5 usefull substats ex.(cdmg, atk%,atk, er, lib dmg%).
hope that helps :)
For the sake of science i will minmax on only atk and some crut substats on ChangLi on my second account. :3
Im very curious on the results do let us know 🫡
It seems like in this game you don't get very much ATK% stats from base echo stats, compared to genshin or honkai, where usually a DPS would have an ATK% piece and a flat ATK piece. Here you just have two 1 cost ATK% pieces.
i think its actually right around the same as genshin cuz i think most dps’ in that game sit around 1600-2400ish. but like hsr, its like 2600-3400
the chart about unbalanced crits wasn't clear; is there a "cutoff" for when atk% > crit? for instance, some math guys from genshin back in the day said basically if you can't hit that 40:80 at least with rate:dmg, atk% is the better bet.
I dont know the exact cut off or have like this “golden rule”, but we know that for calcharo and his high base atk and my chart later in the video that a 1/3ish ratio and 1/2ish ratio are pretty neck and neck. but we can see with an unoptimized build that has a 50/100 with high atk is > the build with 50/150ish.
my personal belief is always measure a build in the amount of good rolls it gets, regardless the rolls. So in genshin/hsr terms, ur RV(roll value)
Element of your resonator %+ is best 4 3cost echo is best raw damage.
losing out on the 5pc set bonus wouldnt make this the case no?
@@yun3_
The 5 set bonus is lower than % bonus of just one gold tier 3 cost echo(no drop off and no requirement for this buff)it also offsets the missing 1 cost echo try it yourself.
@@datuputi777 no way. i'll do just that then
@@datuputi777 from my personal tests, I used calcharo again with his skill, this time with 2 lightning and 2 attack 3 cost echos. We get 574220. That being compared to the crit echo, its around 11.6% less dmg. If I had 2 pc lingering thunes and 2 lightning, it may be like 10.5 dmg difference
holy molly your Rover slaps tho
if only she would crit ;-; 65 ain’t enough
@@yun3_ I'm trying really hard to raise It as well, I can't get consistent crits even at 76 with my Changliand Jihnsi at 74 (tbf I could get close to 80 with the weapons maxxed out as I still have Union lvl at 53), I have yet to touch my Rover 😭
@@Hunter_17825 44111 the way to go if u dont wanna miss crits. cuz sitting at 65 cr 270 or a 90 230 ratio hurts me inside -_-
@@yun3_ I got lucky with some godsent 3 point pieces for both, I'm absolutely unlucky with the 4 and 1 pieces (the only low crit one Is probably the Heron on Jihnsi but It has ER, RES SKILL DMG and ATK% with 6,3 cr 12,6 cd)
its nice u got the hard ones outta the way for the 43311. getting good 4 costs is probs the easier thing to do next cuz u can just farm em at least
I KNEW IT
atk, crit, dmg% go brrrrrrrr
You can't really just examine this in a "solo", aka vacuum, environment. The reason is because crits amplify any gains. When your "gains" are small, you won't see a big improvement, but when your "gains" are large, you see a sizable improvement.
I used lvl 90 Calcharo and lvl 90 ages of harvest, with Verina atk buff, rejuv set atk buff, moonlight set atk buff, ages of harvest dmg bonus, electro set dmg bonus, Calcharo ascension stats, double crit rolls and 1 atk% roll all at the median value you mentioned and normalized dmg.
Using a CD 4 cost like you, the base dmg comes out to be 10815.4 with 69.8 CR and 291 CD. Now using a CR 4 cost instead, the base dmg comes out to be 13829.3 with 91.8 CR and 247 CD. This is a whooping 27.9% increase, not the less than 1% difference that you saw. All I did was add in the missing buffs that should have been included and actually optimized the crit values by switching over to a CR 4 cost. Ok maybe not moonlight atk buff, which would drop the difference down to 17.2%. Which is about a 10% drop and this very roughly corresponds to the drop in total atk% buff from 136.5% to 114%
As for the reddit post about the dmg loss because you aren't doing 1:2. The entire argument is hinged on one core underlying assumption, and that is your CR and CD values ALWAYS comes in a 1:2 ratio, which is simply not true, because the substat values comes in a range. There is no guarantee that when you roll an 8.1 CR substat, that your CD substat is automatically 16.2, it could be 12.6 or it could be 21. Out of the 8 possibilities that CD can roll, there is only 1 case where it will be in a 1:2 ratio to your already rolled CR substat. Essentially, the 1:2 crit ratio is just a logic fallacy that the mass majority of the people have, and this is because the early genshin theory crafters popularized this when they were calculating the theoretical maximum, which only happens in the very extreme rare chance that you rolled max on every substat, which does indeed form a 1:2 ratio, but it's false outside of that very narrow situation.
hello. what ur saying is true but when ur base number that is being multiplied is low, multiplying it by a lot wont help much more.
I appreciate the detailed comment but am concerned about if u watched the video? It was about ATK vs CDMG? not cdmg vs cr? Regardless, The reason why the builds were 1% off is because I balanced the builds as mentioned in the video? I wouldnt be comparing a (ex 5 200 vs a 30 150 build as the 30 150 would easily win)
also, i apologize but dont believe that the damage difference is that wide and that ur math may be wrong somewhere. this goes to that reddit post saying differing from not using a 1/2 ratio won't completely change ur damage and will only be a few percent off. here's my genshin acc and u can see how even without a 1/2 ratio for some of my characters, I can still place super well, besides the build being gud ofc. akasha.cv/profile/857573471
For the reddit post, it is not only focused on the 1/2 ratios as u can move around in the parabola if u so wished ex having 1/1.6ratio. It's simply stating the theoretical builds and how differing from 1/2 will affect that damage, aka not a lot. A perfectly balanced build(1/2) is the most mathematically optimal build and shouldn't be disputed? here is a simple example. 5x5= 25 . adding 2 numbers, we can do either 7x5= 35, 5x7=35. or 6x6=36. As u can see, it is an increase but very slight
I also don't understand where ur saying a 1/2 ratio is hard to get? I already got it in this game for multiple characters and they def arent maxed rolls crit rolls, just 7.5 avg on all 5 pieces which is below avg? the only reason why it doesnt stay that way is bc my cr weapons. but without that. like 65/130?
I dont mind discussing more if u need clarification👍
@@yun3_ Alright here's a wall of text attack. But the TL:DR is you missed the main points of what I'm getting at. Let me reiterate.
1.) If you do not include all the buffs and just examine stats in a vacuum, you "can" arrive at the wrong conclusion.
2.) There is no "golden / perfectly balanced / most optimized" ratio, there is only maximize the product of CR times CD.
You are only seeing a very small increase, less than 1%, because you disregarded alot of ATK% buffs from other sources, namely, rejuv set provides 15% and moonlight provides 22.5%. You are right that the numbers are off in the CR and CD comparison I had before, the difference isn't that high, I read off the wrong column, my bad! That said, the underlying concept remains the same.
Let's look at the example you want, ATK vs Crit. I'll layout the numbers using the same parameters outlined previously. With a ATK% 4cost char base atk: 438, wpn base atk: 588, total atk%: 169.5%, flat atk: 350, total atk: 3115.07, total dmg%: 112%, base dmg 6603.95, CR: 69.8%, CD : 247%, avg normalized dmg: 13380.
Now change to a CR 4 cost, char base atk: 438, wpn base atk: 588, ATK%: 136.5%, flat atk: 350, total atk%: 2776.49, total dmg%: 112%, base dmg: 5886.16, CR: 91.8%, CD: 247%, avg normalized dmg: 13829.3.
13829.3 / 13380 = 3.4% increase, not the less than 1% increase. Is it significant though? That's up to you. I'm not saying you calling this 3.4% difference insignificant is wrong, but it certainly wasn't the less than 1% difference, as that's almost 4 times less than what it would have been.
Let's go further on and say one of your 3 cost is using ATK% instead of DMG%, while still using ATK% 4cost, your avg normalized dmg becomes 12621.6. Comparing this to CR 4cost with dmg%, 13829.3 / 12621.6 = 9.6% difference. I'd say that's significant, but again you might say it's not and that's totally fine, but it certainly wouldn't be 4 times less like 2.45% or something.
Anyways, the actual number is just for illustration purpose, the main point is that you can't just disregard external buffs and examine things in a vacuum. Because you get more sources of ATK% buffs much easier, you should include them, and not just throw them away, because every stat except for cool reduction and CR (up to 100%) has diminishing returns. So stacking more of the same stat is not as effective.
As for the 1/2 ratio, you also missed my point. My point is that there isn't a "golden" ratio you use, you simply multiply CR and CD together, whichever is higher gives you better output. You even showed this in your own example, 5x7 is not higher than 6x6, and look, this is not in your 1:2 ratio, it's a 1:1 ratio. If it's your 1:2 ratio, it should have been 4x8=32 which is not higher than 6x6=36. Your own example refutes the "golden" 1:2 ratio that you are claiming. There is no "balanced" ratio, there is only maximized product / area of CR and CD. I think you understand the optimization problem, you are just too hung up on the "CR and CD comes in a 1:2 ratio", when in reality they rarely do.
I'm not saying making your final CR and CD numbers to show as 1:2 ratio is hard to get. What I'm saying is to get 1:2 ratio on your INDIVIDUAL echoes / artifact is hard to get. Because you only have a 1/8 chance on each piece, and you need to repeat that on your 5 pieces. You need to realize that when you swap pieces, your total amount of stats is also changing, you can't directly compare two configurations because they can have different amount of total stats. In order to figure out which configuration is better, you multiply CR and CD together, whichever one is higher is better. If it turns out that it's a 1:2 ratio, cool. If it's not a 1:2 ratio, why does it matter? It's got a higher number / product / area.
Lastly, the ranking on akasha needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Take your Xiangling for example, ranked 10, that's pretty awesome actually. But the leaderboard shows her only doing 44545 pyronado vape. But then someone else's Xiangling that's ranked at 262 has a higher vape dmg at 50037. But anyways, it's not about 1:2 ratio, 1:3 ratio or 1:5 ratio, ratio does not matter. The only thing that matters is multiply CR and CD together, whichever one gives higher number is better (everything else equal that is).
fuk. i def slightly fuked up too, i think i was using the calculator it very wrong or b. the calc is wrong in itself. regardless, i took it away from the desc just in case
using my same numbers and doing the math,
At the solo scenario, the damage difference is a between cdmg and atk was .002%
6680x67.5)+(2260x33.5)=526610 cdmg
6481x67.5) +(2624x33.5)=525362 atk
now adding 350 atk with verina + glow
2610x33.5) + 7715.15x67.5=608207 cdmg
2974x33.5)+(7345x67.5)=595416 atk
its now a 2.14% in favor of crit
this checks out
now ur math also looks about right at a glance. again, the issue is that ur not balancing out the stats. if u go to my video, u can see all the different stats with an (atk, cr, cdmg weapon)are within the same ratio all sround 67.5 cr. when u messes with that, yes, it will deviate to CR’s favor. im faily certain if u were, again, not test atk vs crit RATE, but rather atk vs cdmg, im sure you find that it will be again around 2% with full buffs
so yes ur absolutely right that in a vacuum can change the results, BUT, the idea still stands that atk% rivals crit. again, the assumption is that we have is that we got 5cr,5cdmg,5 atk% rolls. the more you miss of any of these substats, it will start rolling closer to atk% and in a raw situation, would actually win.
but yes, ur point is correct on not disregarding external buffs. which is why i showed a verina and moonglow test in the vid itself ;-; for ppl who wanted to see how atk% buffs could impact our results.
what that example means in game terms means this
say we start at 60 120 ratio. if we were to add 40 Crit value somewhere, how would we do it.
though u can add it however u want
for this case ill just use the 3 exaggerated scenarios we can go to 70 140 or a 80 120 or a 60 160. regardless, the 70 140 would win, though not by a lot.
when u say “there is only maximized product of cr x cdmg” that is exactly what the balanced ratio is ;-;
so while we cant compare it usually in game, we can do it with math yes. thankfully i actually did have the necessary pieces to do it in game tho. the point is getting slightly less or more CV wont gut ur build or change the outcome too much, unless u LITERALLY GET all min roll cdmg and max roll cr then maybe.
for my xiangling, u gotta compare her to other xianglings ranking at 240 er. its like why fighters have different weight classes, as having er means less dmg (not in practice cuz er super important
again, ratio does matter. like mathematically speaking.
i do not understand exactly what u mean by just multiply cr x cdmg? do u mean the raw number itself? if so, u are literally missing the other half of the equation.
again i appreciate the time u took to test and write this cuz this has taken me like 40 minuites. im willing to discuss more if ud like though i dont know how exactly u would refute what i said
@@yun3_ Here’s another wall of text attack. But I just want to say, good on you for the discussion, most on youtube these days can’t hold one.
First of all we all make mistakes, I did too and I’ll probably make more so it’s always good to have someone else to double check. As long as we recognize the mistake and understand why, it's all good.
But anyways, all I’m saying is that you can’t just examine stats in a vacuum, because even if the results are correct, it can lead to incorrect conclusions from being drawn. Yes you did include Verina’s atk buff and rejuv set buff, but didn’t include the moonlight set buff, which is an extra 22.5% ATK.
I don’t understand your fixation about ratios or must compare to CD and not CR. The question is simple, given the parameters that are set, what is the difference between using a CR 4 cost, CD 4 cost, ATK 4 cost. I’m assuming this is the question you were setting out to answer in the first place? And if that is the case, then you will need to keep every other variable the same, and only change 1 variable to see what the difference is, in this case, switching the main stat of the 4 cost echo. The reason why I compared to CR and not CD is because CR gives 13829.3 normalized dmg and CD gives 13733.5 normalized dmg. Because both CR and CD increases crit dmg, you get to choose. I choose the higher one because that’s the most optimized configuration. You can’t say I’m only going to look at CD because it has the smaller difference compared to ATK%. This is what is called cherry picking, in where you choose results that are favorable to the hypothesis you are trying to prove.
Again, I’m not saying your results are wrong, or your conclusion is wrong. What I’m saying is that your methodology is not being holistic enough, and that can lead you to the wrong conclusion, and you should be aware of them.
The crit values you are listing, why are they always in a 1:2 ratio? It’s because you are using the badly understood CV system, where you multiply CR by 2 and add to CD. But look, the fact that you are multiplying CR by 2 is introducing this 1:2 ratio into your system. You’ve made sure that you are now ALWAYS adding CR and CD in a 1:2 ratio, when you convert from CV back into CR and CD. It would be fine if all your CR and CD rolls always comes in a 1:2 ratio, but they don’t. So you can’t just go “I’m going to add 40 CV and I’m going to divvy it into a 1:2 ratio”, because this rarely happens. Go look at your individual echo / artifact, the majority of them will NOT have a 1:2 CR and CD ratio. As an example I look at my fusion set, they have.
4 cost - 9.3 CR, 17.4 CD - not 1:2 ratio
3 cost - 6.9 CR, 15 CD - not 1:2 ratio
3 cost - 7.5 CR, 16.2 CD - not 1:2 ratio
1 cost - 7.5 CR, 19.8 CD - not 1:2 ratio
1 cost - 8.7 CR, 17.4 CD - 1:2 ratio
When you take a CV number and then divvy it in a 1:2 ratio, you are working with the very special case of where all your echoes are like my last 1 cost echo, they DO come in 1:2 ratio. But the general case is that they do NOT come in a 1:2 ratio, as is the case with the other 4 echoes. Now this does not mean it is always the case that a configuration closer to being 1:2 is always going to be worst. In fact, because you are averaging over a range of 5 plus other sources, your final sum of CR and CD does actually tend towards a 1:2 ratio. This contributes to what gives people the illusion that 1:2 is the end all and be all, when that’s not the case at all.
If you want to say “there is only maximized product of CR and CD” is the balanced ratio, ok sure. Given two configuration of numbers, CR1 and CD1 vs CR2 and CD2. How can you figure out which one is better? Apply some sort of ratio to them? No, you simply multiply the two sets of numbers together and whichever one is higher is better. There isn’t a ratio you apply here, you do not need a ratio.
As for the akasha thing. Like lots of people will say oh look my char is ranked top 1%, it must be a good build! But then it actually doesn’t do more dmg. Like you are top 1% yes, but top 1% of what? It’s not top 1% dmg output, top 1% dmg output where you have 240% ER? But why do you need 240% ER when in rational team? And if you aren’t running it in a rational team so you need higher ER, is the leaderboard even accurate then? This is what I mean, the leaderboard of akasha is a “dumb” system. It doesn’t take into account alot of these considerations.
When I say multiply CR by CD, you take the face value of CR you see in the character sheet and the value of CD minus 100 (because the way WUWA presents it) and you multiply them together. This is not disregarding the other half of the equation, because you are keeping them the same, so you can use the normalization technique. Essentially, all the ATK%, DMG% and flat ATK values, I am going to roll them into a single normalized value, and I’m going to represent it by A. Because A is the same in both cases (because you are keeping everything else the same, that’s how you compare the delta between changing from 1 stat to another), they cancel each other out and you are only left with a number that tells you which CR and CD configuration is better (whichever one is highest). It doesn’t tell you by how much, just that one is better than the other. Ratio does not come into play, it does not matter. It only manifest itself as important because at theoretical maximum (when ALL of your rolls are MAX rolls), all your CR and CD substat rolls become 1:2. But theoretical maximum is, for all intends and purposes due the amount of RNG required, not very useful.
Appreciate the detailed responses and discussion I must say again.
If I make some mistakes, feel free to correct ofc :)
Yes, that is very true. I did not include rejuv because I personally dont use it and know that duo dps’ dont use it either and would prefer verina and the rejuv as the support
So the statement that I made in the vid/title was that “atk rivals crit”. Depending on the scenario and investment, it would favor either side. Which is why I do believe it rivals crit, especially if u need every atk% buff and substats to be able to start reaching these “diminish returns”
Yes, what ur saying is true on only changing 1 variable to see the difference. The issue is that depending on the scenarios, each other the echos can potentially win. If a random new build has say little cr, then cr would always win. If the build has really high cr substats and no cdmg, then we’d want the cdmg echo. And if both stats are high and we dont have atk, then we’d want the atk echo. So to keep it fair, we ideally have to match the scenarios and change not just 1 variable.
Sry didnt want to come off as chery picking. The first response with the cr/cdmg number seemed off. And I as such used the numbers provided in ur second response which compared cr and atk. I do appreciate u now giving the other numbers now tho. I will say again, the reason why it needs to compare cmdg and atk is because it changing the cr variable can really change the results. With the atk/cdmg echo. We only trade those 2 stats. With cr, we’ll have to do some more converting and as such end with an unfair result as the ratio does matter www.hoyolab.com/article/308585 . again, i understand it’s not much but it does matter. Regardless, your math looks right and I cant disagree with you there.
I will say you saying my methodology may not be holistic enough is 100% fair. My results I did was again, my in game test and then the different scenarios at an endgame build and a mid game build. I did not include the external buffers with the end game build.
My 2 reasons is 1. Most endgame builds wont have 5cr/cdmg 5 atk. I assume most will def have the cr/cdmg but maybe not atk. And vice versa, who know depending on the person. Ex. my calcharo build is 5x crit all and 2 flat atk. No atk%. If i did have verina + rejuv + the other one, it would equal right around to if I had 5 attack % rolls.
I understand what you are saying which is why I had to add a few disclaimers in the video stating the stiations and team buffs and etc could really impact the results. But at a base line/raw, it gives us a really good idea. I try not to spread misinfo the best I can and will change things as to prevent this
So the cv system is just a way to better understand your crit. For ex. Is 23 cr better than 23 cdmg? Without using the cv system, we’d think “well the numbers are the same, so clearly they are equal”. But that just simply is not the case. So again, the main issue isnt it needing to be in a ½ ratio, but rather understanding what the numbers mean/how it’ll affect ur dmg.
Again, u can look at my akasha system stats and the dmg increase per substat for any of my characters. It is based on getting an averaged roll and seeing the % dmg increase. The reason why is to have a set standard to rate a build. That is why we use averaged stats when we do things in theory.
So I understand why ur saying just multiply the cr x cdmg. The big issue is that u then miss out on the non crit damage and other factors which are really important. The non crit hit matters, which ur current method does not apply to.
The thing is for akasha, it does do more damage. A 1% build will do more than a 2% build.
The reason why is shown for “some” characters tier lists bc investing in er directly means less damage if not emblem. Again, just like my comparison with weight classes in fighter. Rational honestly is pretty weak so I use XL elsewhere, raiden my hyperbloom trigger lol.
Akasha sets the parameters for many different scenarios taking into account different team comps and weapons depending on the character. It is really really well made. Unfortunately the creator hasnt been updating for a while smh.
Again, I understand the logic but your ratio is important www.hoyolab.com/article/308585 which is why i dont believe ur math in this aspect would be correct.. I hope this chart helps :)
06:12 your tl;dr wrong
it's not that you go atk% just because high BASE atk (mainly cost3) since they both still within same scope of calculation (only Real difference is how same value FLAT Atk is better on lower Base hero than higher one and it's outside of the calculation)
it SHOULD be wether on the trace tree or Sequence has some change to Damage(ele), atk buff, or crit value .
First example is how Jihnsi and Changli losing minimal damage amount using 1 ATK% C3 is due to her tree gain Element damage but the
Real example in this case is because Calcharo tree has CDMG instead CR this makes CritRates rolls more value to him than CDMG compared to other 5*. try on your sheets with calcharo using CR wep + CR echo it will be having gap since the differentiator is Chalcharo CDmg ascension
also verina(&heal set ) is works much more on higher true Crit value since won't be diminshed as much . even more if you were utilizing some S6 4*
2nd TL;DR simplest calculation between build you can do is = "atk * crit damage * (1-critrate) " to compare build. higher cdmg lower crit looks better at DPS(damage per screenshot) vs high crit med cdmg but in actuality its same. real example 88.8/125.5 vs 64.5/174.1 on your video. both at 111% and 112% true crit dmg. the cdmg win by 0.7%
this true crit value throw the RNG out of the calculations hence the "cdmg not value if it doesnt crit" out of the windows
07:21 it's not going poop. it looks like bad to each other but both has same crit value if you just cdmg*critrate it.
i'm not saying atk% bad , you can go for it. i'm just correcting you about crit value works
lets use the highest atk% and flat atk substat roll for this, so 11.6% atk vs 70 atk
say you had an abysmally low base atk bc 4* weapon and being a 4* character with 500 base atk. 11.6% x 500= 58 atk, which would be lower than the flat atk. so flat atk would be better here. but now lets go to around the average atk of 5* and a 5* weapon, around 1000. doing the same thing again, its 116atk vs 70 atk. as such, we are getting more value from the atk% here than the flat substat. we then can use this logic to atk weapons and echoes
youre right on how self traces can impact the results for my results. but as we can see in my graph, it’s already depicted how calcharo would do better with more cr in the situation than cdmg though it was very slight. the reason why it is so close is bc i compensated build using the weapon.
i wasnt going to compare a cdmg+ cdmg vs cr + cr
yes. external buffs could change the results such as verina diminishing atk, albeit it is not by too much
i’ve seen that formula a few times but don’t believe dmg should be calculated in that manner bc it’s like multiple like a weird average and isn’t his it would work in the actual game. thankfully chat gpt can explain this better “The formula you provided, ATK * CDMG * (1 - Crit Rate), does not represent a standard calculation in most games or systems that use Crit Rate and Crit Damage mechanics. When you multiply these together, the formula seems to calculate some form of "non-critical damage expectation," but it's mixed with critical damage in a non-standard way.”
asking, “is this formula better “ (cdmg hit * crit rate) + (non cdmg hit * non crit rate)?”
“Yes, the formula: is a standard and correct way to calculate the expected average damage per hit, taking into account both the chances of landing a critical hit and a non-critical hit.”
i also made a calculator in my 44111 video if u wanna use it.
lastly, so they should provide around the dame damage bc, we can simply convert the crit stats. what im talking about is that it just doesnt look pretty visually. that 1/2 ratio is just nice to look at. in genshin terms , that 70 140 and 90 180 just look nice. 70 220 is just eh in my eyes.
hope i explained my pov well
meanwhile my jinhsi with 36% cr and 303% cd using 4 cost with 1 high cd roll along E and Ult dmg bonus +atk% did better than the echo with double crit (high cr, low cd)
tested in floor 4 for multiple run, it's just more easier to 3star floor 4 with the higher cd one compare to double crit
if you are able to use a CR echo with nice substats, that may greatly help your damage bc not critting sucks
@@yun3_ if only rngesus is on my side 😔
Even with 50% cr I don't crit so many times its noticeable. How tf you crit with 36, you know ignoring your problems won't make them disappear.
@@R1L1. It would've been fix if the double crit echo had higher roll and other useful stat instead of HP and def.
The fact that my high CD roll echo had resonance skill and liberation smg bonus plus atk% as sub stat actually makes it harder to replace
Still I do still had to do like 3-5 rerun just to get 3 star on floor 4
People really be worrying themselves over 1% or 2%?!?
Also does Zhezhi's ult snapshot when casted? Cause Cosmic Ripples buff only lasts a few seconds, so if it doesn't snapshot, I don't think it's that great tbh.
it really just depends on the situation but yah, everything is generally within a few % of each other lol.
I dont exactly know if Cosmic Ripples works off field, but even assuming it doesnt, it is still a great ftp alternative for Zhezhi due to it just being a stat stack 👍
@@yun3_ If her ult snapshots, then I agree, that's a great weapon.
I got her using the 3* basic atk buff and it works just fine imo.
@@Mr.Despair. upgrading from a 3 > 5 star honestly would be rly good for u, seeing how the stats alone would be a big upgrade
@@yun3_ I've been pulling on the standard weapon banner for her, but doubt I'll get it.
I appreciate your insight though!
@@Mr.Despair. ur bound to eventually get it :) hopefully early tho
Why not just level 5 echoes to 25 for each build and don't roll substats on it
you could if you wanted, but it's not realistic for most people as they will have some variety of substats.
Good Video ❤
👨🍳
How'd you get 4 characters in one team?
ah my companion carlos bugged himself into the gam lol
Can you trigger cosmic ripple's effect while being off-field?
I honestly do not know but assume it may not, just bc it doesnt say off field in the description. Though I 100% can be wrong
Yinlin's Stringmaster does refresh it's buff when Yinlin is off-field, so it's not impossible that Cosmic Ripples would as well. Obviously can't test it until Zhezhi is out.
@@FutayuriShironeko ik genshin be real stingy about the wording but who knows in this game.
i sheeted this calcs with jiyan and jinhsi with their weapon but with cost4 atk% and the difference was more or less 6% dps loss, its pretty high 😅 i don't think is worth wasting resources on Cost4 ATK%, better to chill and wait till you drop a good CR or CD.
im really curious why that would be the case
@@yun3_ did you counted moonlit buff, verina buff and rejuv buff? atk% x5 substats and cost1 atk%s ?
@@Nameless_TV ooh. U got a REALLY optimized set up. the closest I have to ur set up was my calcharo with 2 flat atk, so basically 1 atk% roll, and verina with rejuv. No moonlit and missing out on 4 atk% subs which the result had 2.5% less dmg. I still feel like being 3-5% less with a lot of atk% sounds about right :)
@@yun3_ i did the calcs with a calcharo with Verdant with CR cost4 vs Verdant with ATK% cost4, with same substat that i used for jiyan and jinhsi and same buff, the result was even bigger like 9% dps loss.. if i remove all atk% substats its 7,23% dps loss, if i remove moonlit too its 5,76%.. but generally almost every dps like encore, jinhsi, jiyan, calcharo like to be played with a moonlit user in teams and for endgame you want atleast 1 atk% or atk flat on every piece..
So... its not worth.. its a huge dps loss for endgame and a waste of resources..
ps: i think the calculator in your video description is not working correctly, you should consider to use the formula in spreadsheet or another calculator (the maygi one is really good and its free and constatly updated)
wait that sounds about right. if ur using verdant with calcharo and a cr echo, even with 5 cr substats, i believe ur cr is 45. this is even worse bc calcharo has a cdmg ascension while jiyan and jinshi have cr. with an ATK echo, u will need a cr weapon. For the tests, if possible, ull need to have everyone near the same cr cdmg ratio as it can skew the results a lot.
i appreciate the feedback and may use the calc u mentioned if it’s not too complicated for my tiny brain
I've been wondering. Does this also applies to those who scales off DEF, like Taoqi and Yuanwu?
yep and same for future characters with unique scaling. i honestly don’t know the exact scaling but heard that yuan wu actually has really gud def scaling(idk if it’s true or not)
@@yun3_ as long as the theory is same, I'm satisfied. Once again appreciate the response 👋
Because no bennet?
@@itsame7491 a lil bit yah. I believe bennet can give up to 119% atk as opposed to verina + glow with 30%
What's the site at 6:19?
here u go genshin.gg/wuthering-waves/character-stats/
not at all bro. Crit rate and crit dmg plays a big role for dps characters. I already tried it to Jiyan . ATK stats vs crit. Crit stats deals twice to trice the damage than ATK stats
cr and cdmg while good ofc, isnt complete without a healthy ammount of crit and dmg bonus 👍
character need to have some crit in kit or be using a crit rate weapon, otherwise crit is too hard to stack... even getting to 50% is hard TwT
man, cr ascension is so much better than cdmg ascension imo ;-; seeing how 5 cr substats + weapon only gets me to 64 hurts my soul a lil
Btw you should run crit rate 4 cost with age of harvest on calcharo it sheets slightly better than crit damage, but hes the only exception so i get it
honestly i would run cr/atk cuz my liberation never freaking crits, but my cdmg echo is just so nice
@@yun3_ so true, i have jiyan's signature on him and my ult never crits with 65% crit rate, it deals so little dmg when nin crit
Unironically considering 44111 to get 90 cr lol
Danjin has low base damage which means I still need double crits for her noooooooooooooooo
yah sadge 😞apparently flat atk is pretty comparable to for dajin according to Maygi tho
@@yun3_ oh nice, I'm honestly scared I'll brick my account with how many echo mats I've spent on her lol. My standard is way too high after getting awesome rolls on my havoc rover set XD
i dont think u need to worry, cuz we can always transfer echoes to other units if need be :)
2:18 o buff de taxa dessa torre atual faz meu calcharo ficar com 100/270 kkkk então vai critar e ainda tem atc
My account is bugged i cant level up my calcharo it the sense of when i fighr thundering menthis i gain the materials but i cant use it to level calcharo up it says 0 out of the number i need when i have 10 of them
ohh nooo. it wants “thundering memphis drops” not the underground one ;-;
@@yun3_ yes thats whats the problem i have got the materials for thundering memthis but they dont show up on my calcharo upgrade screen and says 0/4 i think
@@gockartzz8272 I just upgraded my calcharo yesterday from killing the guy in the plains in the desert. UNLESS, they changed the upgrade material. Make sure to go to calcharos ascension screen and click on the ascension material. It will guide you on where to go on the map. also are u sure it's called "thundering tacit core"
@@yun3_ i did that its some sort of bug in the game o have had since 1.0
@@gockartzz8272 I have not heard of that before then. The best thing to do is probably contact customer service in the feedback section. I don't know how long it takes but is ur best bet imo
0:28 💀
To sum it up, attack is still not as strong as crit build, but it's cheaper and more reliable.
If you can do crit build absolutely do it, but if you can't then it's fine
you just have low crit, you should try doing those calcs on encore.
and this thing "high base atk means atk% has more value", it also means the crit has more value, crit also scales from base atk, i did not dive into your math but you are clearly doing something wrong, people are calcualting those crit rolls and they have value like 6% more dmg and atk rols have like 3%, so if you compare rectifiers then cosmic ripple gives like 50% more atk than yinlin weapon gives crit, while the rolls on atk can be about 15% higher then on crit, so its just not enough.
i had double crit everything ;-;
so ig like technically cuz like everything scales on each other, but atk% is directly proportional to ur base atk. you can see my newer vid where i did the math in game at lvl 90 and my pinned comment which has the correct results.
@@yun3_ "atk% is directly proportional to ur base atk"
the dmg gain from crit is also directly proportional to ur base atk
beacuse the crit is the base atk but with crit dmg value instead.
the way i see this is those atk% weapons means you will get lower crits, so the crit rolls are like less valueble, but that means that there are more valueble on crit weapons, so atk% weapons can be good if you dont have good echos, but the better the echos the better crit dmg weapon
and actually the rolls on atk are about the same as on crit rate, but atk% weapons are still not strong enough
@@koks49045 so what im actually doing is more so accounting the opportunity cost that going atk would have. so seeing which next substat would be better for us.
so ex. say we had a 600 base atk which is rly low. a high attack% roll (11.6%) would give us 69.6 atk while a high flat atk gives us 70. so flat atk here gives more dmg than atk%. but then we need to see how much 1 atk% roll would give vs a crit roll. and depending on where ur build is and what substats u have, it will depend on
but yes to ur last point but also depending again on the build. if u got a lot of crit but no atk, u may be better off going some atk%
@@yun3_ you will always have atk% like atleast 50% and at that point the crit rolls are better,
value of crit rolls does not decrease,
if you have 100/50 cr/cd then addtional 10% crit dmg gives you 3.3% more dmg,
when you have 180/90 cr/cd then additonal 10% crit dmg gives you 3.4% more dmg.
but overall im not struggling with dmg anyway dont want to read calcs
man... sorry but, numbers mean crap in this game :D
It all comes down to what echo you find and what stats roll.
SO if you want to make a fair video showing the difference between attack and crit.
You should be able to farm 2 whole different set on the same character, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT XD
One set, full crit/crit damage build
And one set, FULL attack i mean, all echoes from 1 to 5 attack main stat and only crit/damage on the sub stats.
i see way too many criticals so math aside is very confusing to say the least.
Not saying you're not right, im just saying the test i see in this video don't look very "fair" and easy to understand, even tho you show the math behind it.
so the thing is, the best way to increase damage as i and some other ppl have noted is to increase all your stats in a relatively equal distribution. by full stacking a particular stat, you are missing out on the potential gains that you would get by going say another stat. going say in theory all crit vs all atk, crit would win, as you will have at least some attack to work with cuz ur base atk and weapon. so if your damage was simply say atk x crit.
full attack could look like 10atk x (1+0crit) vs
4 atk x (1+3)crit or whatever the combination is. some other comment explained this much better than i can but it was like “investing in a whole new bucket increases ur dmg a lot more…”
Changli guide pls
sorry, i dont have changli and as such cant make a proper guide. there are plenty of guides out there tho :)
can someone rephrase this for razor?
If base atk high(most 5*), atk% gud. if base atk low, crit go brrrrr while atk go brrr
if crit no crit, sadge
i main aalto c5 should i go full ATK all d way?...thx
For aalto, bc he is a 4*, he’ll have 4 star base stats which is generally a bit lower than 5*. Bc of that, that means crit would be better for him, though atk% is still pretty gud.
2:50 huh iirc having higher base atk doesn't favor atk%, base atk is just the base number of ur formula and having it higher just equally advantage any multiplier, if you had 0% bonus atk and 0% cd with 100%cr, 1%cd and 1% bonus atk would have the same value. whatever is your base atk. what only really do higher base atk (beside increasing your total damage overall) is that it nerf flat atk value considering the same number of flat atk would be equal to a tinier amount of atk%.
it's a common bait tho so i forgive u. baited a lot of people on the release of dr.ratio by exemple aha.
so basically, when it comes to the base of stats which i will use atk. base atk is pretty important. the reason why is bc the atk% stat is directly calculated by ur multiplying that % by ur base atk. so a character with a base of 500atk will only get 50 atk from 10% atk while a character with with a high base gets 100 atk from 10%.
hope thats clears up some stuff
@@yun3_ and that doesn't advantage atk% over any other multiplier because both benefit as much from it.
i.e :
Y x 2 x 2
than Y = 13, 780 or 1000, it doesn't advantage any multiplier. if you add more to any of those "2" MV it will have the same value.
@@kirby9427 its more so the opportunity cost that is present. u will ex. be choosing 50 or 100atk vs 16.2 cdmg. if i it was 50 vs the crit, id just go crit, bit if it was 100 vs crit, id honestly prefer atk
@@yun3_ it's because you translate it in flat atk, but it's %. meaning 16% bonus atk = 16% cd if you crit. having 500 base atk or 1000 will not change anything. your %atk multiply an higher base atk but your crit too. only the multiplier distribution decide what is worth or not at the end. (and special interaction)
@@kirby9427 im probably misinterpreting what ur saying so here is a vid kinda explaining the diff of ark% and flat atk. ua-cam.com/video/Tj-fpSd22vk/v-deo.htmlsi=RNJ9kc_KgPDC-E21
we can see the comparison with havoc rover and danjin with atk% and flat atk which differs due to the base atk stat
7:09 isnt base crit damage 150%, or is this chart something else?
2:15 I can’t understand what any one of those numbers mean.
Also isn’t crit rate echo still better than cd% echo when with a crit rate weapon cuz 1:2 isn’t reached?
sry, this is using genshin/honkai numbers, where the crit starts at 50. Wuwa writes it a bit differently and starts at 150 instead, but both effectively do the same things.
@@arunjosephshadrach9539 so essentially the crit rate can go to 100. So u can think of crit rate like this. In 100 attacks, how many would crit. With my CR in the video being 64. that means in theory, 64 of those hits would crit and 36 would not. as such, by adding the total damage of all the attacks, we can see which one is better
With a crit rate or crit damage echo, if u have a crit rate weapon and decent artifacts, U generally will not be able to reach 1:2 as u will overshoot one of the stats. But if ur build is not that good, getting CR echo and CR weapon can def help a lot (ex. if u have cdmg substat rolls)
me who runs energy regen xdd
Every attack that crits is a win. Every attack that doesn't crit is a loss. Damage is secondary.
That's my main issue with WUWA. With everyone relying one crit and crit rate, it's basically whomever has the highest dmg multiplier or highest base dmg can be meta.... which... makes it redundant to have multiple characters. Hence why Jinshi, Jiyan, are on demand because their multipliers are so good.
@@Nomimonyo”they are all just glorified numbers with nice paint over it”
this is why these games should hardcap critical chance at some amount below 50%
@@syn010110 Not if you make a game for addicts and that's what gacha is.
@@yun3_ Crit rate and crit damage is a monkey brain food. You roll a dice with every attack: when you win, monkey brain goes "Woho!", when you loose monkey brain goes "brrrr". You can even gamble with stats more crit rate or bigger crit damge. Perfect mechanic for gacha, that's why it's often monetized.
This is Genshin all over again, lol. Took people 4 years to realize that atk% on substats isn't bad smh.
and there isnt even a bennet this time 🫠
Attkmen
I run 4 3311 all my 4 and 3 cost echoes are atk
i think if u got enough crit from substats, u may want to switch to crit cr/dmg echo. my math was using 2 lightning dmg bonuses 3 cost, but if ur also running atk% 4 cost with atk 3 codt echos, u may be losing out some dmg not going crit bc of being unbalanced
@yun3_ thank you for replying what is the damage difference if I run one 3 star atk% and one 3cstar eletro bonus compared to 2 bonus 3 star echo
@@rckyrick7425this is more dependent on the character and how much dmg% or atk they get from their kit. for most 5* units and their high base atk, its near equal, with dmg% usually winning by like 1/2 a percent. i believe i saw that someone like changli does best with 1 atk and 1 fire
Ieven if you have a bad ratio like 30:270 it’s still more dps than stacking atk bc diminishing returns sadly I e extensively tested it on all characters and have data if anyone wants it crit sadly is the best way to get more dps
I do not know at what point cr will start getting better than atk but know at the RLY low investment lvls, atk will be better. Using a super super exaggerated case, say a 5 250 ratio, u basically will never crit. So buffing ur atk/dmg bonus would obviously win. But once u start getting more crit, thats where it would change.
@@yun3_ after 2.4k atk it’s just diminishing returns the game has soft dmg cap
could u explain what u mean by soft dmg cap?
@@yun3_ a certain point in which your dmg won’t go up or goes up by so little it does t matter = soft cap
gotchu. I would say the soft cap shouldnt be an issue in wuwa just bc how scarce the stats are
ex. going from 1600 > 2000 atk is a 25% increase while 2000 > 2400 atk is a 20% increase for the same value. and most characters will not be reaching absurd points of say atk. like 5k plus
But we all can agree that after 4 years of 100% RNG gearing progression, we know it's a scam and you just grind whatever you get until you win and then stop right? We all know that RIGHT? 🤣
Great video btw, I was aware of this from years of MMOs where it always takes a lot longer than you expect for CDMG to outpace ATK considerably, but it's always good to see the math.
i can’t lie, the rng of the gear from gacha games got me hooked 🎰
@@yun3_ Agree, the excitement in the RNG, just a backup pity system helps long term value. What are your thoughts? Do you prefer it being completely random?
Genuinely asking because I'll stop suggesting it if it actually ruins the game for some people, I'll just play different games. 🤣
@@nottyseel949I wish pulling new characters was less rng/ or just a lower soft pity to allow more ftp/low spender players to have access to more characters.
in regards to echos and artifacts/relics(genshin/hsr). though i know many hate the system (i totally get if they get shafted often), i personally like it. When i finally get that goated piece, im like yummy, what a sight to behold.
I personally think u can say what u want right, if u like that rngness, but know u may get some not nice comments lol
5:58 I’m pretty sure cr weapon would do much better if you cr echo there instead of cd
6:29 “crit only gets good at high investment”. I disagree
At low investment you have such a big base crit dmg that crit rate rolls increase average dmg significantly. I agree atk>crit dmg when crit rate is low.
@@arunjosephshadrach9539 Ah i see what's wrong. In wuwa, at 150 crit damage it's not a 2.5x multiplier like genshin or honkai star rail. It's actually multiplying ur entire thing by 150%. so esentially if u did 10,000 dmg with youd do 10,000x150%=15000, which is actually only a 1.5 damage increase. While hsr would've been 10000x2.5=25000. So you actually dont have a big base crit damage in wuwa, with it only being actually 50%. Hope that helps :)
@@yun3_ ohh I see. That fixes up a lot of confusions for me lol
@@yun3_ so the ADDITIONAL damage you get from the whole critting business (on average) is cr%*(cd% - 100%). The 1:2 ratio to look for is then cr/(cd-100) = 1/2. I've been hit with enlightenment. ThANKS a lot o7
@@arunjosephshadrach9539yep. This messed me up too but then i saw somwone talking about it. It should be spread more tbh cus most players ar gonna think that 150 crit dmg is rhe same as in the hoyo games
Base attack is completely irrelevant why do you keep harping on about it? Atk% and crit chance % give the same bonus if it's 5 atk or 5000, base atk matters for flat attack rolls only
But yes, generally atk% is close or even better than crit rolls when your build is not min-maxed or you're running solo with 0 buffs
(Also cosmic ripple is just complete trash compared to stringmaster, just based on the effect alone. Extra 36% attribute/atk bonus completely blows any calculations out of the water)
it would actually be the other way around. say u had a 3 cost atk echo providing 30% atk. with a 5 star char with 5* weapon, itd be 300 atk with 1000 base atk. but with 4 star characters and a 4 star weapon with maybe 750 atk, they same 30% only gets us 225 atk
all limited 5* weapons are sizably better than out standard weapons, with some being more/less depending on who. with zhezhi having most her damage coming from basic attack, itll br a rly good weapon for her, same way the lustrious razor is good for calcharo 👍
@yun3_ The relative damage increase remains the same regardless of the base attack. For example, increasing from 750 to 925 is a 1.3x increase, and increasing from 1000 to 1300 is also a 1.3x increase. The base attack itself doesn't affect this ratio.
Similarly, with critical chance and damage, a 30% crit rate and 200% crit damage result in a 30% increase in damage, whether your attack is 750 increasing to 925 (1.3x increase) or 1000 increasing to 1300 (1.3x increase).
The reason attack percentage (atk%) is less effective is because it adds to all other forms of damage increase, such as skill%, atk%, elemental damage%, etc. Only the Deepen effect is unique because it multiplies at the end, making it OP
Also Zhezhi for sure is going to have a broken signature weapon, just like every other release so far, making standard 5* average af 💀
@@omegand. so while what ur saying is true, that is only in a vacuum. we are comparing an atk stat to a cdmg/cr stat. So, its actually more like is 10%atk (danjin (263 )+ 4* (387)= 551 x 10%= 51 atk, being as much as a flat atk. this would be compared to say calcharo with the 5* weapon where with 1000% base atk, he gets 100atk. so 51atk vs 100atk vs 16.2 cdmg.
ur second point also applies to crit :)
while zhezhi will ofc get a great weapon tailored for her, ftps will have a great option in cosmic ripples. And the gain will be more so like changli and EoG > sig rather than like jinshi > her sig.
hope that clarified some things👍
@@omegand. On you first part the maths is wrong, 750 * 1.3 = 975, increase of 225, idk what was the point on this but the underlying math is wrong.
"Standard weapon is trash" cool? Its easy to get and the video says in this specific case you can make do with cosmic ripples. There is no cope or lie its just facts no on said its better than string master.(i say this cuz you pulled the 36% better which is generally).
hey, just wanna double check math stuff with your sheet. you have discord? will be way easier there
yah np. The sheet I used in particular was in the description and the 2nd link. I still gotta make like a new discord acc for my yt
@@yun3_yah i seen that link and its just that the math stuff u did is kinda questionable to me and not really explained? thats why id like to go on disc for some clarification so when u make an account send a request @ sweatdropss
ill try my best to explain it here if u dont mind.
the top left shows calcharos base stats as well as the substat rolls i will be using. to the right of that, will be the base stats for our 5* weapons.
the left just shows the different stats we get from echos that do not include the substats
now the colored box where it says “2x crit avg all subs… is just the total of the substats”. after which, i total all the different stats that we get into the different boxes, yellow, red, and green.
with these numbers, we then just simply plug it into a calculator which is in the description👍
u can put the different numbers in the calc if u’d like. i didnt do any of the math calcs but the calc did instead