Towing in Top Gear and why you shouldn't!
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- The Numbers have it! 🔢
Does you Diesel keep shifting out of Top Gear?
Here's why!
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Where are we? 1 Hour South of Sydney on the Old Hume Hwy. Berrima NSW goo.gl/maps/gP...
as a diesel mechanic myself, I love these type of informative videos
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Wow, so my uncle was right, I was told by him to never tow in 5 gear..
So
Went and spoke to a mechanic he says gearboxes are built different put in 5 you should be fine..
after towing car floats and trailers with firewood I started having issues, not just one but two gearboxes
thank you your videos have educated me a lot
Thanks for sharing Andrew, appreciate the time taken out of a busy day.
Youre Welcome!
In a 5 speed manual, 4th is 1:1 drive, strong enough to handle prolonged heavy towing. 5th (overdrive) is on a lay shaft, indirect drive and heavy load with torque applied will translate to excess wear. Your 5 speed won't live a long life and will have problems.
Direct drive, or 1:1 ratio, has always been the best, safest, most economical gear to use to pull heavy loads.
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Absolutely agree. Especially important for autoboxes.
100%
Good video. I went from towing with a Landcruiser with a manual transmission to a new 2014 Holden Colorado. Same loaded 3 ton weight and better than half the fuel usage. But a big difference is the relatively narrow torque band for optimal torque. There isn't much point in rpm much above 3100 or below 2100. I find climbing at around 2600 or so is far better and adjust speed to suit. So I will at times drive a bit slower than I potentially might. But the flip side is the engine doesn't have to work too hard. I also will at times lock it into a gear either climbing or descending and watch rpm not speed. Very different technique to the cruiser. But also far better fuel consumption. And on an 18,000 k lap that cost differential becomes significant. Cheers thinking of paying you guys a visit.
Andrew, you always talk sense, keep up the good work mate.
Cheers
I tow around 1.8T in 5th gear with a 2.5L MN Triton everyday of the week. I also run a boost gauge and pyrometer. The pyro is in the dump pipe as close to the turbo as we could get it. We all know combustion tempretures are killers to diesel engines. When i tow in 4th it runs about 10 to 12 pounds boost and the pyro climbs to around 500 degrees. When i tow in 5th. It runs around 15 to 18 pounds of boost and the pyro only goes to about 420 degrees. The extra boost has a quenching effect on the combustion process resulting in lower EGT's. This car has done over 270 000 kms without any gearbox or driveline issues. First thing i'd be telling your customers if they are doing any prolonged towing is to fit a boost and pyro gauge. Engines are way more expensive than gearboxes to fix
My theory...Power = Torque x Velocity. To travel.. towing a trailer at a given speed. You need a given amount of power. You can reduce engine revs (velocity) but you must increase torque. This makes your engine labour and gearbox really work hard. By choosing a lower gear... you increase velocity and hence reduce the torque required. Fuel consumption generally doesn't alter to a huge degree by choosing a lower gear.
your theory is the laws of physics known to mankind and it is absolutely correct! , It does not matter whether you increase or decrease your torque, the power required for the work needs to be delivered. I have no idea how he got his hypotheses but the catch here is the drag force of the wind! ,its DragF=KV² ,so basically higher the speed more energy you are wasting to maintain the speed( only worth it when your time value makes a business case ). When towing, you have not only additional load but additional drag force which your engine has to overcome. So, driving in high speeds makes your engine works hard and couples large torque variations to the engine (not good for load-bearing parts).
Secondly, In a mass-production business model, every ounce every gram and every man seconds mean big money. Hence,it is the common practice to shave off every bit of over-engineering built into products (That's the finance people's business ). This generally results in low torque bearing components and construction in overdrive gears (weaker clutch packs, low clutch engagement pressure, higher slip accommodation(creates heat and destroys clutches in varying drive conditions ),low torque capable gears etc.
Thirdly, high rotational speeds create higher frictional losses (D* angular velocity, where D is the rotational damping coefficient ) inside both the gearbox and engine.This will also create additional heat to raise the gearbox temperature and again ..all power comes from your fuel.
Use to be 4th gear was the best gear to tow in ( for a 5 speed manual) Mainly due to the 1:1 ratio through the gearbox.
And in saying that . Any gearbox that provides a 1:1 ratio I would consider that be the best towing gear !
True
I'm probably going to cop a bit of flack for this with your die hard fans. However, I believe you have it wrong in general with what you are saying (observations with the dyno are of course correct). Torque is calculated by t = P/s or torque = power ÷ speed, thus if you are traveling faster, yes, torque goes down. However, for towing there are a few comments here on Prados and Rangers... If people took the time to read the vehicles drivers manual it'll tell you to only tow in S4 in the Prado. This allows the gear box to more readily lock and drive from the motor at a 1:1 causing less slip, less heat and this more efficient. Same thing can be said for mechanical boxes, the overdrive gears are designed for speed, not for mechanical load. Towing should always be carried out with a 1:1 or lower ratio.
You can use a scan gauge for these popular vehicles to show the status of the torque converter lock and then adjust your driving style to encourage it to remain locked instead of wasting dollars on a kit that although the engines of larger diesels are torquey enough to tow in overdrive gears, Can and will overload them mechanically because they weren't designed too.
Now that a good way to look at it now everybody should understand that👍
So many people ignore these facts and just want to save that extra litre per 100 in fuel. Not knowing that they're costing themselves a lot more in the long run with transmission problems. Great video mate thanks for sharing.
Youre Welcome
Great way to melt a piston towing in overdrive gear/s as well.
from the gearbox standpoint overdrive is the longest path through the gearbox whereas your 1 to 1 gear (4th in most 5 speeds) is straight through input to output no gears under load.
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Thanks for the mechanical insights, Andrew .. a little mechanical sympathy goes a long way !
Thats exactly the word. Mechanical Sympathy!
Great vid from an interesting point of view. Very interested to see the 200 auto box stats
Basically when towing I try to have the engine rpm in the range where torque is highest. In most diesels that will be around 2000 rpm. Because when torque is highest you will get the highest power at the lowest rpm.
True
That's a really good tip thanks for the free advice
Cheers
11 years ago bought a mint Mitsubishi 380. At first I was disappointed it never came with a tow bar, but on reflection its best that any vehicle hasn't towed.
Thanks for the informative video, I would be interested in seeing how the higher gears affect exhaust temperatures and engine temperatures in light vehicles.
Those kilowatt numbers seem too low. 2:24 My Ranger is rated at 147Kw. Being an auto I take it out of overdrive mode and use the manual mode so it revs a little more and therefore creates more torque for towing.
Advertised STANDARD Power of 147kW yet the vehicle only achieves 105kW at the wheels on a dyno.
ALL ‘Claimed’ manufacturers engine power specifications are measured at the engines crankshaft. Note the Key Word ‘Claimed’. These ‘Claimed’ manufacturers’ specifications are never checked or questioned by any Government authority or Independent group. The engine power specifications shown on a Dyno are real but with losses shown at the Tyre
Be sure you don’t confuse the figures by manufacturers with what you achieve on a dyno. There are many variables in the way a dyno calculates power and there are further variables such as tyre size and transmission type. Larger diameter tyres not only drastically effect fuel economy but also absorb power. Automatic transmissions make dyno results hard to read as there is no ‘solid’ connection to the wheels like found in a manual transmission.
It is up to your skilled Dyno Tuning Professional to test the vehicle thoroughly and accurately. Don’t settle for 1 or 2 dyno runs as this will not be a fair and accurate result. Most reputable dyno shops will perform multiple dyno runs so as to achieve a reliable repeatable average of runs. This will allow them to sort through and pick out the runs that can be best used to describe the vehicles dyno results. Remember that to the untrained person a dyno graph can be like reading and trying to understand your health check blood results.
Make sure you ask questions and that your dyno operator ‘translates’ your dyno results into information you can understand.
My 5 speed auto Prado drives so much better and uses less fuel when I keep in 4th when towing. And it sails up hills more easily and doesn't 'hunt' for gears all the time.
Hi Andrew, top subject. That’s the questions All LC200 owners would be interested in.
What’s best with which config. Awaiting your next vid!
I am still learning and for sure will book me into a service with you when our overseas travel again permitted. Cheers
Agreed, I increased the ratio on the rear gear on my motor bike to get higher speed at lower RPM. But it actually couldn't develop enough torque at that ratio, and so was slower at top end. Not only was the engine not big enough for that ratio, but wind resistance increased at higher speed, again which the engine could not overcome.
I always thought 3rd was direct drive tbh and thought that mean full engine power in that gear 🤷🏻♂️?
Thank you for sharing Andrew. I know someone who has ruined his auto gearbox on a fairly new Ranger whilst towing his caravan. All I know at this stage. May be he’s been in overdrive on road trips. Cheers
Cheers
I have a 8 speed auto amarock which I tow a caravan I always lock it in 7th gear manually is that the right thing to do when towing thanks
That's not entirely true. Overdrive is a more efficient gear to be in but in a manual it has to be smaller than the main shaft to get a overdrive ratio making it inherently weaker.
Also I will state that if you drive in a auto in a lower gear it will actually get hotter.
But yes 1:1 is the ideal heavy towing gear due to the torque increase of lower gears. Remember you're not reducing torque in any gear other than overdrive. Low gears are low gears for the exact purpose of creating higher torques but this is at the expense of time so ultimately being in a lower gear will create more heat over X amount of time. This is clearly demonstrated in your power figures. The engine is producing more energy in lower gears meaning the total system intput is higher in a lower gear meaning the transmission has to cop more heat load.
Why do trucks use overdrive?
Would a 92 landcruiser 4.2td be able to handle towing a 4000 pound boat?
Another reason why I LOVE my 6.6 litre Duramax + Allison 6 speed auto for towing my (light for a yank tank) 3.5t Bushtracker. It has around 1200nM of torque and can pull harder than all the lads at a boy scouts jamboree!! hahaha
The Allison is a 6 speed box...5th and 6th are overdrive gears.
It also has an exhaust brake and a separate mode known as "TOW/HAUL". When I use T/H mode, it won't go into 6th gear until/unless the speed gets up to about 115k/h. At 100k/h (in 5th), in T/H mode, it's doing just over 1500rpm in 5th gear.
All that and the whole 8.3 tonnes consumes a reasonable 22L/100 up hill and down dale.....less if I ease off a bit.
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Andrew, very impressive, you certainly know your stuff myself and some friends are new subscribers and keenly await any more videos you release.cheers
Cheers Garth. Feel free to look us up on FAcebook and Instagram also. Cheers
I'm new to this so please forgive a dumb question... Are you saying that, in a 70 series, we should tow in 4th (being 5spd)? And all the time? If so... would that limit you to about 85kph and sitting at about 2200 RPM?
Well done, that reinforces what I thought with my 2003 manual Hi-lux. Now, I'm interested in getting better performance from a 1995 GQ Patrol 4.2 diesel non-turbo, with an AUTO box. 3 speed with overdrive which locks once warm and drops the revs by 300 RPM. So, now 2000 RPM at 100 kph. The trouble is that this only works on level ground or downhill and the slightest incline, especially with a load or towing and there is not enough torque at that RPM to maintain speed. Kick down and you're roaring along at 3000 RPM at 100 kph. Question: I was thinking of putting on a turbo but is that asking for trouble?
Yep we owned an AUTO GQ way back.
www.google.com/search?q=Berrima+diesel+facebook+nissan+turbo&safe=off&sxsrf=ALeKk03vQLSG_cCb9sgnmZZbAUEqJqtxtw%3A1618343599295&ei=r_Z1YNHIEaWO4-EP9qKR-Ak&oq=Berrima+diesel+facebook+nissan+turbo&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKABOgcIABBHELADOgUIABDNAjoECCEQFToICCEQFhAdEB46BwghEAoQoAFQkbbuAVjA7O4BYJzw7gFoBXACeACAAf4BiAGlEpIBBjAuMTIuMpgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrIAQjAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiR3PDa__vvAhUlxzgGHXZRBJ8Q4dUDCA0&uact=5
Good video, well explained thanks. I run a 2012 D-Max, 5 speed auto. When towing my caravan (2500kgs) I keep it in Drive and let the transmission sort it out. It will spend a lot of time in 4th and change up to 5th if I go downhill or reach 95 or 100 kph.
wise words, eats your power and turns it into heat in ya gearbox
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I have the 6.5 turbo v8 diesel in my motorhome with the 4l85e transmission i take it out of OD unless im on the flat (Like lake George ) Love the vid guys
Rob
Nowra NSW,
Youre Welcome!
Is it possible to fit a uni chip on a Toyota super custom 1kzte hiace looking to gain a bit more torque thanks
We'd Fit a DPCHIP to it actually.
Gee who would have though torque is lower in higher gears.
😁
Whats the experience with the Ford 10 speeds?
Next one I get in Ill do same tests :-)
@@BerrimaDiesel Oh wow, I look forward to that one.
Mate much appreciated the vid.
From what I’m reading in the comments is. as I’ve got a 3.2l bt with the 6 speed manual I should not tow in fifth. In fifth at 95km it’s running at 2200rpm.
We tow a 2.6t van and new to having a six speed gear box. With the old patrol we only ever towed in fourth is it what we should be doing with this on too?
Thanks in advance.
Main meaning of the video is to show how Torque gets less as the gears get higher. Lotof people ask why they cant, engine struggles, in top gear. This just shows why.
Great info ... awesome work sharing this knowledge
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You guys continue to amaze me with your knowledge.. such an awesome video guys
We just Share as we see it.
@@BerrimaDiesel and that's why I will always say your number one on my list of diesel tuners / workshops in Australia
Cheers
thank you for your detailed video
Cheers
When your talking about overdrive gears are you talking just autos that heat up? Or manuals as well? I know it’s not good for manuals as it’s still a tall gear but what are the sorts of damage that you can expect in a manual?
Cheers
Manual needs the Driver aware as it cant save itself.
Auto in D doesnt need anything.
Auto with lockup Mods are the worry.
Great description of a very common misconception.
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Oil on the door hinges.
Will depend on your diff ratios dont forget. A vehicle that runs say 4.11:1 diff centres standard with say 31x 10.50x15’s standard, yeah well ok, but if its running 4.33:1 diffs for offroad you would be best to run in 5th gear, but then the Landcruiser box isnt strong in the 5th anyway so this may only pertain to the Nissan Patrol with the superior gearbox.
Is it a good idea disconnect catch can when towing caravan? Will it take away any power when towing with the catch can connected?
No
What if your high gear is direct? Greetings from the US btw.
hi i have a 2008 ford ranger it has a new head
i have towed a car trailer with a car on it no overheating problems
i built a pontoon boat it is about 1.5 ton at most on the trailer it is 3.6mtr high
it catches alot of wind my first time yesterday in 4 gear 80kmph i only went 10km and it boiled the motor
let it cool down all day and did not tow it any more
the car still runs fine so far with no overheat
do you know y it got so hot in such a short distance
the only other thing is in put driving lights on the day before could the block to much air
or was it just under to much strain towing such a big wind grabing load
Fuel loadinds excessive? coolant issue? SO many ifs and buts
Our d max is auto and it drops in sixth gear when towing. Isuzu say let the gear box work. Out what gear to use
Generally speaking yes
I’m curious if you know anything about Dodge Ram . I have a 2009 Ram 2500 4x4 6.7 diesel with 68RFE 6 speed trans and tow a 32’ fifth wheel. I have 3:42 gears. What’s your opinion on towing in 5th and 6 th and using tow haul mode?
We just stick to the main market in Oz..Japanese and Euro.
More videos like this please awesome. The facts👍
Will do.
Thank you for posting. Good info.
Cheers
Is that towing anything ie box trailer, small tinny, jet ski etc or just for the high weight items?
One would say a reasonable load. Say Towing a van.
or anytime you feel you have the foot down in top gear struggling...
So in a four spd auto..
I should hold it in 3rd...??
I was always taught, never tow in overdrive. And the owners manual of my Dodge Nitro says exactly that too. Put it in 4th to lock 5th (OD) out.
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Is it better to leave it in a lower gear rev it around 3 thousand rpm then labour it especially in a diesel 1hz turbo ?
With revs comes less engine load/lighter foot on throttle.
What gear you choose usually comes from experience as to how your vehicle responds.
Main thing to be aware of is Overdrive creates less Torque at the wheels.
Hi Andrew - any info on the LC200 for towing?
facebook.com/berrimadiesel/posts/3843903685653169
Very good explanation, thanks mate
Cheers
Please tell me that was Melce making an appearance at the end of the video?!
Hahaha. Well spotted Ryan :-)
how old is the car?? as i know toyota finally fixed their gear box problem about 1-2 years ago
Talk about missing the point!
Great video and good advise cheers.
Welcome
I presume that that is based on a flat or inclines. As down hill wouldn't be any issue to be in overdrive gearing?
Depends on air resistance (speed) as well. Your engine could still be doing work even downhill - that's on top of other kinds of friction.
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I go by the manifold pressure. I've noticed towing my 19' caravan with my 79 series Landcruiser, that at around 90kph in 4th, the manifold pressure is around 140 (I'm assuming this is kPa) on the flat so on downhills I can achieve a little more speed by selecting 5th and sticking around the 140 mark for manifold pressure. This way I'm not overloading the gearbox. The engine has been remapped and running a 3" straight through exhaust (though still has catalytic convertor) The maximum manifold pressure the turbo pushes is 190.
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Great info mate
Cheers
Great advice.
Cheers
Haha, I thought it was commonsense not to tow a load in top gear. It's the worst thing you can do. The engine is at it's weakest in top gear.
I always tow in reverse
Well said
Youre Welcome
60kw, is that @ the rear wheels?
Is it turbocharged? Thanks
Dyno
At the Rubber
What about 4speed autos? Ie, 2010 Hilux D-4D
Highest gear is usually Overdrive so Towing heavy loads isnt usually efficient in an overdrive
You'll cook your transmission towing in overdrive and kill the torque converter in a automatic
for a 79 series, towing in 4th gear with a higher rpm im assuming is safer than driving in over drive? would towing in higher RPM damage anything? Thank you.
The owners manual usually stipulates also no towing in Top gear
60kw? Surely that's pre tune
It wasnt a Tuning video
@@BerrimaDiesel cool story
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Looks like I’m towing in second from now on.
Dont forget Low Range
@@BerrimaDiesel haha!
You’ll be popular with the people behind you 😜🇬🇧
Just put your vehicle in "Drive" and let the gearbox decide which gear it should be in.
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I tow in Auto,
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I'm so glad to see someone with expertise like yourself back up something that I've been trying to get through to some people for years! Well explained! Hope the message hits home.
Keep up the great, no bullshit, factual videos👍
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