Nobody can argue the fact that Genesis is the most prestigious tournament as of right now. It's possible that will change in the coming years but it isn't going to be replaced by something that just pops up out of nowhere, it will take time.
to the "big housers" in the replies here, yeah big house is fucking massive. imagine the narrative of big house and genesis being like the playoffs of the melee season. those are the two biggest tournaments, they deserve to be the last two tournaments of the season, rather than starting with genesis and then having a dead period for 2+ months lol
@benjaminjameskurz like one of those beans from the bean 50/50 things that youtubers eat, but nobody can agree if the bean actually tastes bad or not, but it undeniably is an impressively designed bean with all the colours and stuff. I agree he's a weird jelly bean
Pretty sure (not 100% but sure enough to make this comment) that Rivals of Aether does this already, and that's worked for them just fine. I see no reason for Melee not to take the same steps.
Send this to every melee player and the ranking people, even if this change doesn't go into effect I think the community needs to get comfortable with at least the idea of changing the ranking period
Love the idea of Genesis acting as a defacto championship and think that's a great idea. I also think the next tournament would definitely benefit from being able to market itself as the first tournament of the season because anyone who had a bad/disappointing year would be highly motivated for an opportunity to start the fresh ranking period off on the right foot.
The only thing I could think of against it is a semantics one where just the definition of "Genesis" means its the beginning of something, but even then It could still mean just the beginning of the year itself while still being the end of the ranking season so it still works fine enough.
People have made all kinds of algorithmic rankings and they tend to give weird results. I mean if you look at the rankings for years you were following I think you'll mostly agree with them.
big agree. I think the end of the year is always a bit weird because it's like, we have big house which is like, arguably the biggest event (with genesis) and then there are just a few months of weird small events and it's like, idk it just feels strange to have all the biggest tournaments over but people can still go to the little things and suddenly everything is riding on like, fuckin mainstage (no offense to MainStage the event was cool but like, yeah)
100% agree. With the recent nintendo fiasco mid sized melee only tournies might struggle to get a license so it puts even more weight on the established franchised majors like Genesis and BigHouse. Your idea makes total sense.
Makes sense to me, i remember getting burned out as a viewer when we had big majors every second week. I think less is more when it comes to storylines ansld and hype buildup
completely agreed, hopefully this change will actually go into effect instead of getting stuck in discourse (unless there's a big downside that wasn't brought up yet)
There really should be a big tournament for each season. Winter has Genesis, Spring doesn’t really have anything, Summer has Smash Con, and Fall has Big House
We should at least shift the ranking period to end after SOME big tournament. Having to wait for 2 months with no important events for rankings to come out kinda kills the hype.
Having the rankings come out at the same time as the biggest tournament of the year is so hype. We can only do that, because the ranking period ends right before genesis. And there is precedent for a sport having their biggest event at the beginning of the season. In NASCAR the Daytona 500 is literally the very first race of the season and it’s the biggest race of the year. I think it’s cool keeping it as is. The problem is players refusing to show up to tournaments because they’re afraid of their ranking. At that point you’re losing sight of what’s important.
Melee community is the pinnacle of talking around in circles so we never get anything done. Controllers, rule sets, etc. Unfortunately, the only two options are to do something unsanctioned and hope to garner support (1.03 is a good example), or let your idea die in extremely unorganized and pedantic bureaucracy.
Genesis is a great tournament but we really need an evo for melee. We have Big House and Genesis. I might also argue Super Smash Con is up there but thats some bias as thats my favorite to watch. But we really need one of these to just be the big one. The must watch/attend. Or I just wish evo would bring back melee. But now with nintendo getting their hands involved I get not even wanting to go anywhere near melee. Off topic I had no idea this channel was this good.
Rankings should only count wins and not losses. That way it encourages people to enter events and there's no worrying about taking it easy for a weekend, going to locals, etc.
great video at least for me as a panelist, i do consider ppl beating players at 'big tournaments' as more important, though ultimately the HUGE barrage of data we're going through can make it hard to remember everything for everyone by the end, so some spots get missed for sure. i think this is part of the advantage of the panelist system - i may not remember or find everything, but as a collective, usually these things get accounted for decently well. love videos like this that are detailed,, but focused on a small change. makes it easier to think about how i can advocate for it and talk to others about making stuff happen!
Excellent idea, I think it's much better for the season to finish with Genesis rather than start it. Great talk, great points, hope this gets more traction.
mango and others had the best idea imo with making attendance count toward rankings. After that rule/criteria is mandatory, then everything else regarding scheduling can come after. I'd rather get 4 tours a year(1 in each quarter) with every top 20 player in attendance than 8 or 9 that avg 3 top players who get the most lopsided bracket runs
I actually don't think attendance should be a big factor in attendance because it would create unnecessary stress over missing tournaments due to getting sick or other life circumstances. It would also further the gap between NA and international players as well as being unfair to NA players who happen to live far away from many tournaments. I think tournament wins (depending on how big the tournament is), average placement, h2h's and attendance should count for rankings, in that order.
@@ziwuri Yeahh didn't consider international players, i'm sure there are some compromises that could be made for travel circumstances but yes as long as attendance matters regarding rankings in some manner, should be a step in the right direction.
@@Mike4pf I mean it already kinda matters by proxy. You can't have 3 major wins if you only go to 2 majors. You can't have a winning record against a high-ranking player if you don't play enough tournaments to actually run into them in bracket.
Since it's dead before AND after Genesis, there will always be a drawn out "off season". It kinda makes the argument a moot point. It makes sense to have Genesis start and end with the Big House. Or someone is going to have to create a big tourny in-between them or after Genesis. NASCAR is the same way. The biggest race is the Daytona 500 and it's first on the list.
we could jsut start the new system from after the last genesis and create the new ranking then star the nex one from after this genesis so we dont need to have a transition period. we could just have both rankings this year.
i agree with this, i think ending with big house would be good too but there’s a reason why sports end their seasons with the biggest events. the current system fucks over smaller tournaments at the end of the year, why would cody go to one of those tournaments and risk the narrative of “yeah it might’ve been the greatest loser’s run of all time but he underperformed towards the end of the year especially at santa paws”
Make Melee a league like the NFL or NBA. Weekly tournaments with mandatory attendance (which is compensated) . That means a salary for all registered players. Divide bracket into amateur and pro to keep energy levels high . Top 8s shouldn’t be battle of the least exhausted.
That would require an organisation that I don't really think feasible for this community rn. I don't see who'd be paying up, how we'd decide who has a salary, and I think weekly tournaments would be a bit too much to follow everything going on (unless we also make a sort of point system so that rankings are obvious at each tournament but the players will get drained by the grind) I love the idea of better attendance (monthly ?) with compensation I just think it'd be hard to work out
There is one downside to this. With Genesis being the start, someone can secure their ranking by October/November and then chill out for the rest of the year. If Genesis is the end of the ranking season, players might feel pressure to grind through the holidays. IDK, if I'm Cody or Zain, I want to secure #1 and then chill the fuck out for a while. It might be better for the narratives but I high key want top players to have a good work/life balance.
I think the melee season should be June to January agreeing with.moky about ending the year with Genesis with room to have majors in between. Other tournament teams should come together to make bigger and bigger outside this season because they won't be competing with legacy tournaments.
It'd be stupid to have a 5 month off season where tournaments don't matter. This isn't the NBA. Melee players aren't going to break their arms or tear their ACLs if they have to play year-round. The only 2 Super Major tournament serieses in Melee right now are Genesis and Big House. LACS is too irregular for me to consider it a series since it happens at a different time every year (2 was in July of 2020, 3 was in December of 2020, 4 was January 2022, 5 was July 2023).
@@bellure4971 it's a start I'd take it . Plus with Nintendo taking us out at the knees leading to not much fiscal incentives and no circuits or world championships I think a break would be better. If a player or players are incentivised to go to events in that time , good for them and for that tournament but not all the top players should feel obligated to go
I think the biggest question isnt which tournament is going to become bigger than genesis while genesis still exists, its what happens if Genesis isn't a thing anymore. Does the season shift again to be about TBH? A year is consistent, regardless of fluctuations in the scene. RoM, Summit, Evo etc. used to be the biggest events and aren't anymore and thats pretty normal and excepted in a grassroots scene tbh.
Genesis being the true finals of the year would be so sick! There are some great tournaments throughout the year but Genesis truly is THE Melee tournament, it should be the hypest shit ever imo!👍
Ranking year should end somewhere during the summer, maybe halfway. Like Finish in June and start on July. The are gonna be a lot of big tournaments with decent attendance either way, and you would end the year with hype events and start it with hype events while also having the two biggest events half way through the beginning and the ending of the season. I think having Genesis as the Last event would make recency bias for rankings a bigger issue than it al ready is, and eventually people would just concentrate on doing well there, but if the biggest tournament is 3 months away from the end of the ranking season, but you also have BoBC, Collision and other big events you can upset the rankings that Genesis might have created.
It’s not a uniquely bad idea but the ranking period used to be different from the calendar year and it confused tf out of people. Keeping it tied to the calendar keeps it simpler and more definitive imo.
![[UA] NAVI проти G2 Esports | Blast Premier Fall Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QWlIm4FGESQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Such a great idea. I feel it would even incentivize people to go to more tourneys. Also would make Genesis even more exciting than it already is
Nobody can argue the fact that Genesis is the most prestigious tournament as of right now. It's possible that will change in the coming years but it isn't going to be replaced by something that just pops up out of nowhere, it will take time.
What about the big house
yeah what about big house
big house and genny r on the same level at the moment
to the "big housers" in the replies here, yeah big house is fucking massive. imagine the narrative of big house and genesis being like the playoffs of the melee season. those are the two biggest tournaments, they deserve to be the last two tournaments of the season, rather than starting with genesis and then having a dead period for 2+ months lol
@@kevwox facts
Objectively a fantastic idea. Make the Melee season line up with the hype.
Moky did you forget that Nintendo killed Smash Bros the other day???
moky is like leffen is leffen was a normal human bean
leffen who of course is a weird jelly bean
Leffen but Canadian and not Scandinavian
@benjaminjameskurz like one of those beans from the bean 50/50 things that youtubers eat, but nobody can agree if the bean actually tastes bad or not, but it undeniably is an impressively designed bean with all the colours and stuff.
I agree he's a weird jelly bean
The thumbnail had me worried bro was about to pull out the ukulele
Pretty sure (not 100% but sure enough to make this comment) that Rivals of Aether does this already, and that's worked for them just fine. I see no reason for Melee not to take the same steps.
thumbnail looks like bro is gonna be apologizing for some war crimes
My man, your thumbnail looks like you’re about to apologise for Allegations
Send this to every melee player and the ranking people, even if this change doesn't go into effect I think the community needs to get comfortable with at least the idea of changing the ranking period
Love the idea of Genesis acting as a defacto championship and think that's a great idea. I also think the next tournament would definitely benefit from being able to market itself as the first tournament of the season because anyone who had a bad/disappointing year would be highly motivated for an opportunity to start the fresh ranking period off on the right foot.
Counter: letting the hype die down reduces recency bias.
I think there's a lot of merit to Moky's idea tho
The only thing I could think of against it is a semantics one where just the definition of "Genesis" means its the beginning of something, but even then It could still mean just the beginning of the year itself while still being the end of the ranking season so it still works fine enough.
This is what Rivals does and it's actually kinda sick
This is a great idea! I also don’t understand why Melee doesn’t just copy how tennis does their rankings. It seems like the most comparable sport
People have made all kinds of algorithmic rankings and they tend to give weird results. I mean if you look at the rankings for years you were following I think you'll mostly agree with them.
#1 Moky
#2-16 Doesn't matter
#17 Moky
Rankings solved.
With Smash Summit gone we need a new invitational in early November to cap off the year.
R E V E L A T I ON
big agree. I think the end of the year is always a bit weird because it's like, we have big house which is like, arguably the biggest event (with genesis) and then there are just a few months of weird small events and it's like, idk it just feels strange to have all the biggest tournaments over but people can still go to the little things and suddenly everything is riding on like, fuckin mainstage (no offense to MainStage the event was cool but like, yeah)
based
100% agree. With the recent nintendo fiasco mid sized melee only tournies might struggle to get a license so it puts even more weight on the established franchised majors like Genesis and BigHouse. Your idea makes total sense.
actually a amazing idea hope it goes thru!
Legit Love this idea! Also it seems all the "Arguments" against this are already problems that exist, its not like making this change creates them.
Makes sense to me, i remember getting burned out as a viewer when we had big majors every second week. I think less is more when it comes to storylines ansld and hype buildup
you know the vid is serious when unedited thumbnail and video title ends with a period
completely agreed, hopefully this change will actually go into effect instead of getting stuck in discourse (unless there's a big downside that wasn't brought up yet)
Rivals does this exactly and it's great
Ahh yes I also forget that The Big House exists. smh
There really should be a big tournament for each season. Winter has Genesis, Spring doesn’t really have anything, Summer has Smash Con, and Fall has Big House
That would be the point of an off-season right?
Agreed, this makes sense.
We should at least shift the ranking period to end after SOME big tournament. Having to wait for 2 months with no important events for rankings to come out kinda kills the hype.
then you need to rename Genesis then to Revelation or Apocalypse jk
Having the rankings come out at the same time as the biggest tournament of the year is so hype. We can only do that, because the ranking period ends right before genesis. And there is precedent for a sport having their biggest event at the beginning of the season. In NASCAR the Daytona 500 is literally the very first race of the season and it’s the biggest race of the year. I think it’s cool keeping it as is. The problem is players refusing to show up to tournaments because they’re afraid of their ranking. At that point you’re losing sight of what’s important.
I'm 100% wit it
This is a good idea but it’s never gonna happen. Nobody wants to change
Melee community is the pinnacle of talking around in circles so we never get anything done. Controllers, rule sets, etc. Unfortunately, the only two options are to do something unsanctioned and hope to garner support (1.03 is a good example), or let your idea die in extremely unorganized and pedantic bureaucracy.
you right
yea i see no downsides
Great idea, thanks for sharing
Genesis is a great tournament but we really need an evo for melee. We have Big House and Genesis. I might also argue Super Smash Con is up there but thats some bias as thats my favorite to watch. But we really need one of these to just be the big one. The must watch/attend. Or I just wish evo would bring back melee. But now with nintendo getting their hands involved I get not even wanting to go anywhere near melee.
Off topic I had no idea this channel was this good.
Very much agree
people wont do this because mango doesn't like genesis because it's right after new years
I agree with everything Moky says, however really giving off that first day of school vibes with that shirt. :)
Agreed!!!
ngl I disagree I love starting the year off with Genesis.
If you did that tho, then does Genesis 11 count for both years? Because otherwise, yeah, one year is hype, but then the next year is weird.
i dont think anyone really cares that much about rankings besides top 50 players
I hope everyone does UA-cam/Twitch content during the off season
And here I thought Genesis was called that since it's the "start" of the season essentially...
moky look so sad in the thumbnail guys we should change the rank :(
Moky I love your content! ❤️ I edge to your videos 😅
h2h rankings are cringe. they cause a chilling effect to enter tournies
they will change at the end of the year. stay tuned!
They should just push genesis to the end of December
Tbh it’s unrealistic I know but we need 4 super majors the way the pga does it and have one every few months it’ll keep the whole year hype
Something needs to replace the two summits. I think if Ludwig keeps doing LACS that should be a big tournament and something else.
Rankings should only count wins and not losses. That way it encourages people to enter events and there's no worrying about taking it easy for a weekend, going to locals, etc.
Yeah but it's called Genesis so it should start with it
They ban me again from twitch on your stream
This man’s wearing his ranking on his face 😂
first
that thumbnail looks like the donkey meme
Is it just me or he looks like Shane Dawson
algorithm bless this video
why is thumbnail moky so sad :(
Moky got 65th at Genesis?
dead franchise lolz
if aiden agrees then i agress
great video
at least for me as a panelist, i do consider ppl beating players at 'big tournaments' as more important, though ultimately the HUGE barrage of data we're going through can make it hard to remember everything for everyone by the end, so some spots get missed for sure. i think this is part of the advantage of the panelist system - i may not remember or find everything, but as a collective, usually these things get accounted for decently well.
love videos like this that are detailed,, but focused on a small change. makes it easier to think about how i can advocate for it and talk to others about making stuff happen!
based
Talk to em moky 🗣️
I like the idea
Excellent idea, I think it's much better for the season to finish with Genesis rather than start it. Great talk, great points, hope this gets more traction.
Super agree with you
I agree.
good idea mr. moky man, well done
trueeeee
mango and others had the best idea imo with making attendance count toward rankings. After that rule/criteria is mandatory, then everything else regarding scheduling can come after. I'd rather get 4 tours a year(1 in each quarter) with every top 20 player in attendance than 8 or 9 that avg 3 top players who get the most lopsided bracket runs
I actually don't think attendance should be a big factor in attendance because it would create unnecessary stress over missing tournaments due to getting sick or other life circumstances. It would also further the gap between NA and international players as well as being unfair to NA players who happen to live far away from many tournaments. I think tournament wins (depending on how big the tournament is), average placement, h2h's and attendance should count for rankings, in that order.
@@ziwuri Yeahh didn't consider international players, i'm sure there are some compromises that could be made for travel circumstances but yes as long as attendance matters regarding rankings in some manner, should be a step in the right direction.
@@Mike4pf I mean it already kinda matters by proxy. You can't have 3 major wins if you only go to 2 majors. You can't have a winning record against a high-ranking player if you don't play enough tournaments to actually run into them in bracket.
MOKUL MAIL
Since it's dead before AND after Genesis, there will always be a drawn out "off season". It kinda makes the argument a moot point.
It makes sense to have Genesis start and end with the Big House. Or someone is going to have to create a big tourny in-between them or after Genesis.
NASCAR is the same way. The biggest race is the Daytona 500 and it's first on the list.
we could jsut start the new system from after the last genesis and create the new ranking then star the nex one from after this genesis so we dont need to have a transition period. we could just have both rankings this year.
i agree with this, i think ending with big house would be good too but there’s a reason why sports end their seasons with the biggest events. the current system fucks over smaller tournaments at the end of the year, why would cody go to one of those tournaments and risk the narrative of “yeah it might’ve been the greatest loser’s run of all time but he underperformed towards the end of the year especially at santa paws”
I really hope this ends up happening
moky 4 pres
Make Melee a league like the NFL or NBA. Weekly tournaments with mandatory attendance (which is compensated) . That means a salary for all registered players. Divide bracket into amateur and pro to keep energy levels high . Top 8s shouldn’t be battle of the least exhausted.
That would require an organisation that I don't really think feasible for this community rn. I don't see who'd be paying up, how we'd decide who has a salary, and I think weekly tournaments would be a bit too much to follow everything going on (unless we also make a sort of point system so that rankings are obvious at each tournament but the players will get drained by the grind)
I love the idea of better attendance (monthly ?) with compensation I just think it'd be hard to work out
Point system would do wonders@@Hack--rz1io
The fans would have to fund it though, and there's always the chance Nintendo would try to shut it down
Actually super based
early gang
I like it
There is one downside to this. With Genesis being the start, someone can secure their ranking by October/November and then chill out for the rest of the year. If Genesis is the end of the ranking season, players might feel pressure to grind through the holidays. IDK, if I'm Cody or Zain, I want to secure #1 and then chill the fuck out for a while.
It might be better for the narratives but I high key want top players to have a good work/life balance.
Nah it's wack it's as moky said if you place low at genesis the whole year you're gonna be ranked down. The biggest event should be the climax
This is actually a good point.
I think the melee season should be June to January agreeing with.moky about ending the year with Genesis with room to have majors in between. Other tournament teams should come together to make bigger and bigger outside this season because they won't be competing with legacy tournaments.
It'd be stupid to have a 5 month off season where tournaments don't matter. This isn't the NBA. Melee players aren't going to break their arms or tear their ACLs if they have to play year-round.
The only 2 Super Major tournament serieses in Melee right now are Genesis and Big House. LACS is too irregular for me to consider it a series since it happens at a different time every year (2 was in July of 2020, 3 was in December of 2020, 4 was January 2022, 5 was July 2023).
Collision is in march. how does post genesis and feb off sound? final offer
@@bellure4971 it's a start I'd take it . Plus with Nintendo taking us out at the knees leading to not much fiscal incentives and no circuits or world championships I think a break would be better. If a player or players are incentivised to go to events in that time , good for them and for that tournament but not all the top players should feel obligated to go
I think the biggest question isnt which tournament is going to become bigger than genesis while genesis still exists, its what happens if Genesis isn't a thing anymore. Does the season shift again to be about TBH?
A year is consistent, regardless of fluctuations in the scene. RoM, Summit, Evo etc. used to be the biggest events and aren't anymore and thats pretty normal and excepted in a grassroots scene tbh.
Genesis would be much less likely to fall off if it was considered the Superbowl of Smash. In fact, it would probably grow even more.
Genesis being the true finals of the year would be so sick! There are some great tournaments throughout the year but Genesis truly is THE Melee tournament, it should be the hypest shit ever imo!👍
Moky doing his chucky cosplay. I see him
Wait but, we pretty much have the big house as the last torunament of the season? We are close enough that everyone is off to enjoy the holidays
Kinda clickbait ngl
Ranking year should end somewhere during the summer, maybe halfway. Like Finish in June and start on July. The are gonna be a lot of big tournaments with decent attendance either way, and you would end the year with hype events and start it with hype events while also having the two biggest events half way through the beginning and the ending of the season. I think having Genesis as the Last event would make recency bias for rankings a bigger issue than it al ready is, and eventually people would just concentrate on doing well there, but if the biggest tournament is 3 months away from the end of the ranking season, but you also have BoBC, Collision and other big events you can upset the rankings that Genesis might have created.
You are so brave for this. Praying the TO cabal does not banish you to the dark realm with the chosen few 😢 🙏
oh my god please do not lump moky in with those psychos, thanks
I don't think that Moky is a raging racist like those names, so should be fine.
You are so brave for saying this because what are you talking about 😭
great idea actuallty
It’s not a uniquely bad idea but the ranking period used to be different from the calendar year and it confused tf out of people. Keeping it tied to the calendar keeps it simpler and more definitive imo.