This is a pretty valid view to be honest. Starting my Superman reading with Golden Age books I got from an actual comic store. My favourite stories in those books were always Superman destroying slot machines, taking some ammo manufacturer into an active war zone and the multiple issues on corruption in orphanages. The champion of the oppressed is still my favourite title for the character. Been enjoying Post Crisis and New 52 reading recently.
I don't really see why he can't be both. Brainiac isn't invading the earth every day, and supervillains need time to recoup after they've been beaten up by the man of steel. So Superman probably has some "slow" days where he can go save some kids in wartorn fuqtupistan, or stopping a human trafficking ring. Like I don't see why he would ignore it entirely. Maybe it shouldn't be his primary duty as a super hero, but there's no reason why he can't be helping the oppressed on occasion. On the other hand, superman beating up a neonaughty just for wrong-think, or deciding which side should win a war would be an abuse of his powers and simply not what the public want from a hero, and I mean that both in-universe and outside as readers, because the two are one and the same.
Well, i'm a little confused because the trailer pretty much shows superman as champion of the oppressed, with the kid in the war that will probably be saved even if people will hate him for choosing a side, which you pretty much see with the people throwing stuff at him. So showing a superman that will go against the government if he needs to. And SPOILERS . . . . . . . . . . . In a zoomed journal of the trailer it's stated superman quickly ends that war, not being happy he intefered they send a superhuman being that destroy part of metropolis, making all the citizen hating him for not staying in the U.S and minding his business while people died in the conflict of foreign countries.
That whole "Superman not interfering with human affairs" ordeal is more of a plot convenience for the world to stay the same, as is the case for all episodic narratives. However, THAT is NOT needed in adaptations, specially live action ones, which are sure to end one day due to external factors.
As much as I agree with most of the statements you made in this video, I have to say that as of right now, in the modern age of Superman comics, the "champion of the oppresed" aspect of the character is still there, but it's not the one and only thing the character is about, like it was in the Golden Age. For instance, we had Grant Morrison's Action Comics run in the New52 and more recently we had PKJ's Warworld Saga, which was very much the "champion of the oppresed" approach, but on a larger scale. I, for one, as a Superman reader think that the "ideal" version of the character and his world should be a mix of everything that came before because every era of the character has something special and interesting. What do I mean by that? Well, if Superman fights Brainiac every day it gets boring and repetitive and if he fights corrupt CEO's every day then that kinda gets redundant too, so one day you have him fight aliens, the next day he champions the working class and next week he has an identity crisis and feels lonely, and so on. Just like Batman, he's a very rich character with a gold mine of potential so there's no point in having him be "just this" or "just that".
That being said, I do agree with the fact that at certain points in the character's history, his Golden Age roots were pretty much "erased from existence" and that kinda limited/harmed the character (I love the Silver Age and the Donner movies but I can't lie). Very happy that his Golden Age roots have been revived and modernized in the past decade or so, even if they aren't really "his whole shtick" anymore
@@serbangabrielstanescu7997 also it feels like most modern superman comics doesn't try to use his reporter background enough. it's only used as just background material in what does clark do besides super-heroing, rather than a plot point. also, you would think because of the rise of yellow journalism, in our modern times, that the guy who is about journalism would have modern stories about it - but nope.
Full agree. I do appreciate that the element of the champion of the oppressed has been brought back, and even things like his journalist side is brought more to the forefront of his character
@@serbangabrielstanescu7997 i remember a time when war world saga was coming out, superman fans hated that story. mind you, i love that story, and pkj's whole action comics run, but fans were disgusted that superman went into space to save slaves. they also called the story superman is an imperialist/white savior trope, which is hilarious. the great thing about war world saga is that it's a mix between silver age superman and golden age superman. the back drop is silver age superman, but the heart of the story comes from the golden age roots of the character.
@@johnthai6188 That and his Metallo arc showed PKJ understood the nuances of both Superman and got the fine line. He was a champion of the oppressed but he faced larger than life version of his original threats
I don’t see how he cannot be a champion of the oppressed despite this being a new iteration of the character in a modern setting like all those before it, but this was an interesting look back on his original mythology, and now I really think it would be interesting to see more people tackle the political dichotomy of a person trying to help EVERYBODY.
The framing of this video is too narrow, and doesn’t properly engage with the discussion around the politics of Superman. Superman _in part_ is the champion of the oppressed as his heroism is indiscriminate, standing in defense of the everyman, regardless of race, religion, nationality, etc. as he values all life equally. And that premise is a part of a larger argument against the notion that Superman is not representative of conservative values. I think there’s room for the other side to argue that Superman does represent some traditional values, so Im not coming from the left or right with this comment. I think the framing is just far too narrow.
I still think Superman being an champion of the oppressed is important to his character (given PKJs WarWorld) but like you said the more super altruistic goody two shoes space age Superman takes more of the prevalence in both fans and audiences. I’ve been enjoying Absolute Superman so far and I am absolutely hyped for James Gunn’s Superman.
While I do agree with most of your points, I think this versatility is what makes Superman such a great and inspiring character. You can have him thwarting otherworldly threats like Brainiac or Doomsday, but you can also have him fighting for the oppressed and marginalized against climate change, poverty, war, and racism. Neither angle feels out of character for him.
Honestly I came in, prepared to hate but you do have a lot of good points. I think champion or the oppressed/immigrant allegory Superman is one that does and has worked and can work in modern age stories (Superman versus the Klan, Absolute Superman, Earth One, PKJ Warworld, Superman Space Age, New 52). Unfortunately we’re in an era where Christopher Reeve Superman has overtaken the public mindset of what a definitive Superman should be. Superman can be a versatile character who fits many mold, but a lot of people are stuck with one idea of Superman, it’s hard for any other (even his original interpretation) to even compete sometimes. When John Byrne took the character, a lot of reframed Superman from both Richard Donner movies and the George Reeves Tv show as a “super republican “ (his words, not mine) and it also was a heavy influence in public mindset of what Superman should be. Singer wanted to modernize Donner’s Superman, Snyder wanted to subvert and deconstruct Donner’s Superman and Gunn seems to be looking at Donner as well as other takes (it seems he will have elements of the Champion of the Oppressed character but it won’t be at the forefront). Even shows like Superman and Lois, Lois and Clark, Superman TAS and Smallville were in their own way influenced by Donner’s Superman. Superman isn’t irrelevant, but it kind of feel like we’re at an impasse of what Superman should be. Especially with Superman growing more powerful and popular, would the champion of the oppressed title fit the same or would it simply be no different than dictator Superman in Injustice. Well meaning but really over throwing his weight. With Guaridans and his other films, I do have faith in how he explores Clark and his world, in a new and interesting way that hasn’t been seen before. But I do wish we could see more of the champion of the oppressed Superman in more modern media. I would have loved see a Fleischer/Siegel & Shuster inspired Superman face Brainiac and as opposed to having Jor-el teach him to become a Reeve esque Superman, figure the ropes out himself. Learn what being Superman actually means
Your video exposes a flaw and power that can only be found in comics, specifically superheroes. Superheroes are the most recontextualized characters in mass media and they are recontextualized to fit into contemporary socio political and cultural standards. Superman is actually the most recontextualized superhero of all time, mainly because he is the prototypical superhero. The power of Superman is that he is everlasting. The flaw though, lies with the fan base, who, because many fans discover superheroes outside of their home medium...which is comics, they often time get a condensed and somewhat convoluted version of the character. In the case of Superman, I think what Gunn is aiming to do is recontextualize Supes back to a beacon of positive altruistic masculinity to counter act the modern era of men's right hyper masculinity that has become so prominent. Which funny enough is what Zack Synder was trying to make Superman.
@@omn8612 I can't speak to much of Gunn's Superman, but from the trailer at least, it feels like he's pretty much doing what Snyder did, but with a brighter coat of paint. Which I'm not opposed to, because I like those "Superman vs the status quo" stories. But it is funny how simar they looked, and the internet is like "IT'S SO DIFFERENT" lol But Superman (as well as Batman, and most of the Marvel heroes for that matter) are interesting in that they have roots in comic book mythology, but their film/tv counterparts are equally valid, but completely different takes on those characters.
@MysticalGreenBeanie I think what Synder was doing was making the Justice League the Watchmen. Synder had para military PTSD superheroes and a quirky child soldier for the Flash. I think Gunn is leaning more towards superheroes as corporate commodities and how Superman exists as the antithesis of that
The other irony to Superman's perceived irrelevance in mass media is that Superman is the one superhero that has always been in mass media [ tv. movies etc] there's actually not a point in time in close to 45 years that there hasnt been a successful or prominent piece of Superman media. From the Reeve movies, to the Superboy tv show, to Lois and Clark, to Superman the animated series, to Smallville, to Superman Returns and so on. Superman never left, he's always here. I think cynical fans have created the lie that Superman is irrelevant. Great video
Since Richard Donner's Superman it's everyone trying to make thier own version of that. Singer was trying to bring back Donner's Superman for modern audience, Snyder wanted to subvert Donner's Superman, and now Gunn is trying to create a mish-mash of Donner's Superman with comics that are essentially spiritual sequels or spin-off's of Donner's Superman. Unfortunately, because of how critically but most importantly commercially successful Donner's Superman was, it erased most of the character's prievious history. Now there can't be a "Superman: Champion of the oppressed" because for 99% audience, fans, and creators there never was Champion of the oppressed, there was only Donner's Superman. That's why when something simmilar to OG Superman comes out people reject it for not being Donner's Superman. Gunn doesn't care about to dug deep and bring out the real core of the character, he just wants to play it safe and give people what they want ( *because he needs for this movie to sell extremely well, otherwise no Gunnverse and then he won't be able to do what he really wants and that every other character but Superman* ), and what they want is what they saw when they were kids, or what every influencer preached since 2013 when Man of Steel came out, a hopeful Superman, a Starman, Donner's Superman all over again. P.S. Starman song doesn't make any f****ing sense as song for Superman, since he lives on earth and actually does shit in that world
I kinda disagree with what you said because the whole story about the movie is basically superman fighting against corporations and stuff. Because most heroes you see are either under Maxwell lord or lex Luther. Also in the trailer you can see a newspaper talking about superman intervening in a war between Boravia and Jarhanpur. You can also see a kid who's in the middle of the conflict of the war hold up a flag with superman's symbol, so he's literally a symbol of the oppressed in that film
Except, no? Gunn's clearly very passionate about this movie and infusing his own style in it. You can take inspiration from Donner and have Superman be the champion of the oppressed, they're not incompatible. Superman has also had many space stories, he does come from space and its important to highlight that, so Starman does fit.
@ProjektTaku Except - Yes. Superman didn't come from space as Superman, his identity, his values, his everything (even his powers, cause he wouldn't had them on krypton, they come from earth's sun) is from earth, except his birth, but since he was on krypton for a year at best and lived his actual life on earth, that doesn't really count, Martian Manhunter fits much better for this song. Second. Gunn can do or tell anything, right now, I don't see that. There's a lot of pressure on him, so he will say and do anything to please the majority and for this movie to succeed. At this point, all he can and will do is make a crowd pleasing safe movie for whole family, filled with nostalgia and reference bait because that is what public demands from Superman movie. So Chapion of the opressed would most likely willl be just one of Superm's aliases, at best.
@@user-ManofStyle1 You realize the irony in that, as the idea that everything that makes Superman "Superman" coming from earth is from the John Bryne Post-Crisis version, not his original Champion of the Oppressed version. You actually loose a lot of the immigrant subtext of Superman if you just say that everything important about him is from earth, and therefore the "Champion of the Oppressed" seems more white savior than empathetic immigrant. Originally, Superman remembered his time on Krypton as a baby and the interesting part about him is that he values both parts of his heritage, and his "real self" is somewhere between Kent and Superman. But I don't understand how you can look at the Superman 2025 trailer and not see that Gunn isn't trying to just make a "crowd pleasing safe movie". He's doing interesting things with the camera lens, he's including more obscure characters and even has a kid crying out to save his country from war.
Great job man on Superman is not a champion of the oppressed even though personally for me I like Superman being both champion of the oppressed and being the hero I know and love, and plus him being a father to his son Jonathan Samuel Kent superboy as his little 10 year old self was fantastic but that’s just my opinion, oh also happy Hanukkah man I hope you have.l a great holiday season in my opinion.
Superman #247 gets messy with its metaphors because it makes the subject of this debate “literal slaves” but I think the point of Superman’s consciously limited interventionism(which had basically only been introduced by that point, if it had been introduced in the 40s it would have reeked of libertarian nationalism) is simply that fascism is not a viable antidote to capitalism and other forms of exploitation, that a more collective effort towards change is necessary to secure anything meaningful and stable. Superman, like all superheroes, can not exactly embody the will of the people because all he essentially is is the populist reactionary fantasy of a strong good looky white man coming in punching something and saving the day. And apparently he’s a *meta* enough superhero to recognize and voice this contradiction himself
*on second inspection it seems like they made the subject *human trafficked migrants*(somewhat of a parallel to Superman’s own situation) for the precise purpose of dramatizing the hard line that Superman has to draw, like *even in a case like this your punching and building powers can not cement permanent change so they’re essentially irrelevant*
When you get to the *non intervention* phase of the character(which was incorporated into the donner movies) the paradoxes of the character’s abilities and existential context are basically built back into the mythology itself
Basically the mythology of Superman goes farther with your thesis at the end of the video to definitively stating that there is no **good, political individual** any political individual innately assumes the role of the false god somewhere down the line. Someone committing full force to their political ideals can look like luigi mangione or it could look like Donald trump. In that panel Batman mentions that Superman could redistribute wealth but he could also force women to carry pregnancies to term. And to use this analogy to address another point of criticism, Superman wouldn’t be any less reactionary if he became injustice Superman instead of just showing up reinforce some faulty infrastructure. Is Donald trump any less reactionsry than Luigi mangione? The writers live to rub this shit in Superman’s face via power hierarchy topping characters like lex and Batman, especially in something like red son where Superman is forced to go to his room for essentially just striving to establish a global socialist utopia. And bonus points, everything I just said is basically lex’s schizo ramble about god in Batman v Superman as well as the meta-politics informing Batman’s decision to off Superman
superman is a person that maintain the status quo he is not left or right same goes for most superhero's even the hero's that tackle real world problems at best they beat a villain and pray for a better world but will do nothing that cause real change. This is causing comics are never ending and must reset every few years. James gun movie may change things like how the Christopher Reeve movies did but that is unlikely
That's fair. The teaser for me does kinda look like what I expected from a James Gunn Superman movie: openly bright and optimistic hero although having to come to terms with major flaws that'll hit him hard. I do trust James to grapple an interesting approach for big blue; common thing I've noticed with his superhero flicks is flawed individuals with a deep past having to overcome odds and find place in a world to belong. I am interested and hyped to see what he does. As for the champion of the oppressed, I am a fan of it, but do acknowledge it hasn't been a big thing like it used to be and do think the character is at odds with making him as this perfect paragon or the guy who is wanting to do all good yet introduced to new internal conflicts or personal flaws that he needs to face. Really wanna read more from the '70s cause handful of issues I've read sounds like my jam
Oh exactly so now you're gonna say that it's the job of a firefighter to act reactively not proactively so that you could say that it's the role of a God to act reactively not proactively without having to say that it's the role of a God to act reactively not proactively because you don't wanna tell people that their answers their prayers are never gonna be answered ever?
The pessimist and neutral reactions prove something James Gunn said "Kindness is now something that seems old fashioned", it's hard for people to believe that a film about positivism and hope can be good, we live in a modern world where lust and vices are an all-time high and so engrave in the pop culture that we forgot what's the American way what's religion and the traditional values that made the west so great. I don't like people who want to make Superman a political character because that's divisive, for me superman represents traditional values nothing more.
@@graizur When I recorded the video, Luigi was on trial for murder. When I was editing, he was acquitted. Thus, the joje was dated. Sorry if not clear(?)
"good is culturally and ideologically reletive." Even more granular than that, the word good doesn't alwasys have moral conotations. So it's even more drilled down, good is just a word for positive or other than frustrating, or convinient. It's just a word :"Cue Hillary clinton v Obma JUST WORDS and then just words speech from obama and then annother 25 minutes of cultural synthysis of Snyder the word SNIDE and Why Wonder Woman overwriting her ex-boyfriend over that guy is just par for the course being around Gods. ANd then you end witha quote from Cyclops from Earth X or Universe X about how Xavier was obvi wrong when a sneeze from a powerful enough pubescent mutant can cause casualties like a small war, in a second.
So you so you just mentioned the white man's burden in relation to Superman and you just said that the first two films were about him wrestling with the idea of between the idea of a human and the idea of a God really in modern parlance we just called it power dynamics and now you're hiding and afraid to associate firemen with deities or with the status of deity lost sort of totally associating those two things.
Why don’t you have this then. Start Clark off as a morally self righteous SJW superman taking out his anger that the world doesn’t live up to his ideals. And have the Kent’s teach him more about compassion and altruism
How is that fascinating? I had to replay that section of the video because you made a middle-interesting thing an intro, then you summed up the intro twice, and then you said it's fascinating that the first two films are about him wrrestling with the power dynamic. Are you trying to be interesting by putting the real tittle hidden in a bunch of intentionaly forgettable language filler, and then one idea that you are now going to answer an unanswered question? I don't wanna ask what is so interesting and then have you answer it because the introduction of the concept that's so interesting could have already been explained just spent 5 minutes you could have worked in this interesting aspect into those past five minutes now I'm hearing a new sentence about something that's so interesting and you're saying that it's already relating to the past lines it's it's some sort of puzzle? Is begging the question but I don't like the begging like if we were in a conversation you would say wait wait and I would be like what are you doing.
This is par for the course. Superheroes are modern myth. Naturally they reflect the zeitgeist and shift to match the emotional underpinnings of the dominant culture. So particular elements get downplayed or played up depending on the era until we basically settle on a general set of norms for a character. Nature of the beast. I think the fun in adaptation is recontextualizing all that history and commentary into a new cocktail that feels true to the source material yet forges its own path. It’s how you can keep getting different takes on characters that still feel like that character. I’m looking forward to James Gunn’s Superman. He looks to be injecting some Silver Age weirdness into a Christopher Reeve inspired Superman with Snyder social commentary. I think this is a good blend because it delves more into unique Superman flavor with things like Krypto that has never been done before in live action while also harkening back to the familiar. Snyder’s commentary always failed because they didn’t give Superman a character to converse with the commentary. He was just monosyllabic and offered no pushback to the idea that Superman wasn’t needed, even agreeing with that sentiment at times. It gave Superman an eerie otherwordly feeling which just throws everything off. Gunn seems to be improving upon that by actually having a Superman that challenges the cynical norm of today. That’s important if any social commentary is going to be attempted. You need that back and forth if any of it is going to matter.
You said sarcastically "superman isn't..." what was effectively Anti-fa, and then showed a bunch of comics to highlight how wrong that is, but you used comics from like the last 8 years where no one is reading them because they suck... because he's acting like Anti-fa. Saying "superman doesn't" isn't a literal statement about the content of literally every single comic he's ever been in, it's a statement about what he _should be_ despite the ways many creators are trying to twist and corrupt him. If you can't uncorrupt him, then the character is finished. If he spends more of his time being an embarrassing leftwing extremist propaganda piece, then the character will wither and fall out of public interest. The extremist left still has not come to terms with the reality that making superman or Luke Skywalker, or Spiderman, or James Bond, act and do the things that everyone hates, won't make them love those things more, they'll just hate the character. So I don't know what your point is by showing comics that no one has ever read and will never read and acting like that should be the cultural zeitgeist of what superman is, but the bottom line is people want superman to be superman again because he hasn't been for a long time. I have no idea if James Gunn will Deliver it, in fact I kind of doubt it because I've disliked his entire body of work so far, but in so far as the trailer goes, he at least is trying to convince us that superman is going to be superman again.
@@keegobricks9734 did you miss the part in the 14 minute video where i said he was created as a socialist power fantasy but was evolved into an apolitical corporate mascot throughout the silver and bronze age...?
@@keegobricks9734 you mean New 52 and Earth One? Comics that took the character back to his Champion of the Oppressed roots, and were deemed "edge lord" for it?
@@MysticalGreenBeanie I don't know what it was, it was a handful of comic scenes very early on in the video when you kept saying sarcastically "Superman isn't X". I still don't get your point, you're saying it's not edge-lord just because it was closer to how he was in the golden age?
You mean when I was mocking superficial criticisms of Grant Morrison's Action Comics, Greg Pak's Superman, and Superman Earth One, despite those being some of the best comics with the character in the past 20 years?
![The Sympathetic Strawman - How Marvel Accidentally Created One of the Best MCU Characters [reupload]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SalgNl0Nnvs/mqdefault.jpg)
Fans & Casuals in a Nutshell = "If it's not my personal idealized version of the franchise then everything else is Non-Cannon"
@@-Man-kk3pt I mean, yuh...?
This is a pretty valid view to be honest. Starting my Superman reading with Golden Age books I got from an actual comic store. My favourite stories in those books were always Superman destroying slot machines, taking some ammo manufacturer into an active war zone and the multiple issues on corruption in orphanages.
The champion of the oppressed is still my favourite title for the character. Been enjoying Post Crisis and New 52 reading recently.
New 52 Superman is criminally underrated and overhated IMO.
I don't really see why he can't be both. Brainiac isn't invading the earth every day, and supervillains need time to recoup after they've been beaten up by the man of steel. So Superman probably has some "slow" days where he can go save some kids in wartorn fuqtupistan, or stopping a human trafficking ring. Like I don't see why he would ignore it entirely. Maybe it shouldn't be his primary duty as a super hero, but there's no reason why he can't be helping the oppressed on occasion.
On the other hand, superman beating up a neonaughty just for wrong-think, or deciding which side should win a war would be an abuse of his powers and simply not what the public want from a hero, and I mean that both in-universe and outside as readers, because the two are one and the same.
@@keegobricks9734 He can't be both because Superman is a "good boy who doesn't step on anyone's toes".
Well, i'm a little confused because the trailer pretty much shows superman as champion of the oppressed, with the kid in the war that will probably be saved even if people will hate him for choosing a side, which you pretty much see with the people throwing stuff at him. So showing a superman that will go against the government if he needs to. And SPOILERS
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In a zoomed journal of the trailer it's stated superman quickly ends that war, not being happy he intefered they send a superhuman being that destroy part of metropolis, making all the citizen hating him for not staying in the U.S and minding his business while people died in the conflict of foreign countries.
@@Reversesup hey man, no potential spoilers! K?
That whole "Superman not interfering with human affairs" ordeal is more of a plot convenience for the world to stay the same, as is the case for all episodic narratives. However, THAT is NOT needed in adaptations, specially live action ones, which are sure to end one day due to external factors.
@@patrickbateman1207 I don't think it's needed in adaptations, but it is adhered to quite often.
As much as I agree with most of the statements you made in this video, I have to say that as of right now, in the modern age of Superman comics, the "champion of the oppresed" aspect of the character is still there, but it's not the one and only thing the character is about, like it was in the Golden Age. For instance, we had Grant Morrison's Action Comics run in the New52 and more recently we had PKJ's Warworld Saga, which was very much the "champion of the oppresed" approach, but on a larger scale. I, for one, as a Superman reader think that the "ideal" version of the character and his world should be a mix of everything that came before because every era of the character has something special and interesting. What do I mean by that? Well, if Superman fights Brainiac every day it gets boring and repetitive and if he fights corrupt CEO's every day then that kinda gets redundant too, so one day you have him fight aliens, the next day he champions the working class and next week he has an identity crisis and feels lonely, and so on. Just like Batman, he's a very rich character with a gold mine of potential so there's no point in having him be "just this" or "just that".
That being said, I do agree with the fact that at certain points in the character's history, his Golden Age roots were pretty much "erased from existence" and that kinda limited/harmed the character (I love the Silver Age and the Donner movies but I can't lie). Very happy that his Golden Age roots have been revived and modernized in the past decade or so, even if they aren't really "his whole shtick" anymore
@@serbangabrielstanescu7997 also it feels like most modern superman comics doesn't try to use his reporter background enough. it's only used as just background material in what does clark do besides super-heroing, rather than a plot point. also, you would think because of the rise of yellow journalism, in our modern times, that the guy who is about journalism would have modern stories about it - but nope.
Full agree. I do appreciate that the element of the champion of the oppressed has been brought back, and even things like his journalist side is brought more to the forefront of his character
@@serbangabrielstanescu7997 i remember a time when war world saga was coming out, superman fans hated that story. mind you, i love that story, and pkj's whole action comics run, but fans were disgusted that superman went into space to save slaves. they also called the story superman is an imperialist/white savior trope, which is hilarious. the great thing about war world saga is that it's a mix between silver age superman and golden age superman. the back drop is silver age superman, but the heart of the story comes from the golden age roots of the character.
@@johnthai6188 That and his Metallo arc showed PKJ understood the nuances of both Superman and got the fine line. He was a champion of the oppressed but he faced larger than life version of his original threats
I don’t see how he cannot be a champion of the oppressed despite this being a new iteration of the character in a modern setting like all those before it, but this was an interesting look back on his original mythology, and now I really think it would be interesting to see more people tackle the political dichotomy of a person trying to help EVERYBODY.
The framing of this video is too narrow, and doesn’t properly engage with the discussion around the politics of Superman. Superman _in part_ is the champion of the oppressed as his heroism is indiscriminate, standing in defense of the everyman, regardless of race, religion, nationality, etc. as he values all life equally. And that premise is a part of a larger argument against the notion that Superman is not representative of conservative values. I think there’s room for the other side to argue that Superman does represent some traditional values, so Im not coming from the left or right with this comment. I think the framing is just far too narrow.
I still think Superman being an champion of the oppressed is important to his character (given PKJs WarWorld) but like you said the more super altruistic goody two shoes space age Superman takes more of the prevalence in both fans and audiences.
I’ve been enjoying Absolute Superman so far and I am absolutely hyped for James Gunn’s Superman.
@@daryltor7608 yeah, Space Jesus Superman has become the default.
While I do agree with most of your points, I think this versatility is what makes Superman such a great and inspiring character. You can have him thwarting otherworldly threats like Brainiac or Doomsday, but you can also have him fighting for the oppressed and marginalized against climate change, poverty, war, and racism. Neither angle feels out of character for him.
He can be it just depends on what you view as oppressed
@@Dannyboy31805 and THAT'S the thing, isn't it?
Honestly I came in, prepared to hate but you do have a lot of good points. I think champion or the oppressed/immigrant allegory Superman is one that does and has worked and can work in modern age stories (Superman versus the Klan, Absolute Superman, Earth One, PKJ Warworld, Superman Space Age, New 52). Unfortunately we’re in an era where Christopher Reeve Superman has overtaken the public mindset of what a definitive Superman should be. Superman can be a versatile character who fits many mold, but a lot of people are stuck with one idea of Superman, it’s hard for any other (even his original interpretation) to even compete sometimes.
When John Byrne took the character, a lot of reframed Superman from both Richard Donner movies and the George Reeves Tv show as a “super republican “ (his words, not mine) and it also was a heavy influence in public mindset of what Superman should be. Singer wanted to modernize Donner’s Superman, Snyder wanted to subvert and deconstruct Donner’s Superman and Gunn seems to be looking at Donner as well as other takes (it seems he will have elements of the Champion of the Oppressed character but it won’t be at the forefront). Even shows like Superman and Lois, Lois and Clark, Superman TAS and Smallville were in their own way influenced by Donner’s Superman. Superman isn’t irrelevant, but it kind of feel like we’re at an impasse of what Superman should be. Especially with Superman growing more powerful and popular, would the champion of the oppressed title fit the same or would it simply be no different than dictator Superman in Injustice. Well meaning but really over throwing his weight.
With Guaridans and his other films, I do have faith in how he explores Clark and his world, in a new and interesting way that hasn’t been seen before. But I do wish we could see more of the champion of the oppressed Superman in more modern media. I would have loved see a Fleischer/Siegel & Shuster inspired Superman face Brainiac and as opposed to having Jor-el teach him to become a Reeve esque Superman, figure the ropes out himself. Learn what being Superman actually means
Your video exposes a flaw and power that can only be found in comics, specifically superheroes. Superheroes are the most recontextualized characters in mass media and they are recontextualized to fit into contemporary socio political and cultural standards. Superman is actually the most recontextualized superhero of all time, mainly because he is the prototypical superhero. The power of Superman is that he is everlasting. The flaw though, lies with the fan base, who, because many fans discover superheroes outside of their home medium...which is comics, they often time get a condensed and somewhat convoluted version of the character. In the case of Superman, I think what Gunn is aiming to do is recontextualize Supes back to a beacon of positive altruistic masculinity to counter act the modern era of men's right hyper masculinity that has become so prominent. Which funny enough is what Zack Synder was trying to make Superman.
@@omn8612 I can't speak to much of Gunn's Superman, but from the trailer at least, it feels like he's pretty much doing what Snyder did, but with a brighter coat of paint. Which I'm not opposed to, because I like those "Superman vs the status quo" stories. But it is funny how simar they looked, and the internet is like "IT'S SO DIFFERENT" lol
But Superman (as well as Batman, and most of the Marvel heroes for that matter) are interesting in that they have roots in comic book mythology, but their film/tv counterparts are equally valid, but completely different takes on those characters.
@MysticalGreenBeanie I think what Synder was doing was making the Justice League the Watchmen. Synder had para military PTSD superheroes and a quirky child soldier for the Flash. I think Gunn is leaning more towards superheroes as corporate commodities and how Superman exists as the antithesis of that
The other irony to Superman's perceived irrelevance in mass media is that Superman is the one superhero that has always been in mass media [ tv. movies etc] there's actually not a point in time in close to 45 years that there hasnt been a successful or prominent piece of Superman media. From the Reeve movies, to the Superboy tv show, to Lois and Clark, to Superman the animated series, to Smallville, to Superman Returns and so on. Superman never left, he's always here. I think cynical fans have created the lie that Superman is irrelevant. Great video
@@omn8612 thanks bro! 🙏🏾
Since Richard Donner's Superman it's everyone trying to make thier own version of that. Singer was trying to bring back Donner's Superman for modern audience, Snyder wanted to subvert Donner's Superman, and now Gunn is trying to create a mish-mash of Donner's Superman with comics that are essentially spiritual sequels or spin-off's of Donner's Superman.
Unfortunately, because of how critically but most importantly commercially successful Donner's Superman was, it erased most of the character's prievious history. Now there can't be a "Superman: Champion of the oppressed" because for 99% audience, fans, and creators there never was Champion of the oppressed, there was only Donner's Superman. That's why when something simmilar to OG Superman comes out people reject it for not being Donner's Superman.
Gunn doesn't care about to dug deep and bring out the real core of the character, he just wants to play it safe and give people what they want ( *because he needs for this movie to sell extremely well, otherwise no Gunnverse and then he won't be able to do what he really wants and that every other character but Superman* ), and what they want is what they saw when they were kids, or what every influencer preached since 2013 when Man of Steel came out, a hopeful Superman, a Starman, Donner's Superman all over again.
P.S. Starman song doesn't make any f****ing sense as song for Superman, since he lives on earth and actually does shit in that world
@@user-ManofStyle1 101% this.
I kinda disagree with what you said because the whole story about the movie is basically superman fighting against corporations and stuff. Because most heroes you see are either under Maxwell lord or lex Luther. Also in the trailer you can see a newspaper talking about superman intervening in a war between Boravia and Jarhanpur. You can also see a kid who's in the middle of the conflict of the war hold up a flag with superman's symbol, so he's literally a symbol of the oppressed in that film
Except, no? Gunn's clearly very passionate about this movie and infusing his own style in it. You can take inspiration from Donner and have Superman be the champion of the oppressed, they're not incompatible. Superman has also had many space stories, he does come from space and its important to highlight that, so Starman does fit.
@ProjektTaku Except - Yes. Superman didn't come from space as Superman, his identity, his values, his everything (even his powers, cause he wouldn't had them on krypton, they come from earth's sun) is from earth, except his birth, but since he was on krypton for a year at best and lived his actual life on earth, that doesn't really count, Martian Manhunter fits much better for this song.
Second. Gunn can do or tell anything, right now, I don't see that. There's a lot of pressure on him, so he will say and do anything to please the majority and for this movie to succeed.
At this point, all he can and will do is make a crowd pleasing safe movie for whole family, filled with nostalgia and reference bait because that is what public demands from Superman movie.
So Chapion of the opressed would most likely willl be just one of Superm's aliases, at best.
@@user-ManofStyle1 You realize the irony in that, as the idea that everything that makes Superman "Superman" coming from earth is from the John Bryne Post-Crisis version, not his original Champion of the Oppressed version. You actually loose a lot of the immigrant subtext of Superman if you just say that everything important about him is from earth, and therefore the "Champion of the Oppressed" seems more white savior than empathetic immigrant. Originally, Superman remembered his time on Krypton as a baby and the interesting part about him is that he values both parts of his heritage, and his "real self" is somewhere between Kent and Superman.
But I don't understand how you can look at the Superman 2025 trailer and not see that Gunn isn't trying to just make a "crowd pleasing safe movie". He's doing interesting things with the camera lens, he's including more obscure characters and even has a kid crying out to save his country from war.
Great job man on Superman is not a champion of the oppressed even though personally for me I like Superman being both champion of the oppressed and being the hero I know and love, and plus him being a father to his son Jonathan Samuel Kent superboy as his little 10 year old self was fantastic but that’s just my opinion, oh also happy Hanukkah man I hope you have.l a great holiday season in my opinion.
@@TevyaSmolka me too, man. Me too.
Hey i like the 900 lbs of uwu soft boy marshmallow fluff :3
Superman #247 gets messy with its metaphors because it makes the subject of this debate “literal slaves” but I think the point of Superman’s consciously limited interventionism(which had basically only been introduced by that point, if it had been introduced in the 40s it would have reeked of libertarian nationalism) is simply that fascism is not a viable antidote to capitalism and other forms of exploitation, that a more collective effort towards change is necessary to secure anything meaningful and stable. Superman, like all superheroes, can not exactly embody the will of the people because all he essentially is is the populist reactionary fantasy of a strong good looky white man coming in punching something and saving the day. And apparently he’s a *meta* enough superhero to recognize and voice this contradiction himself
*on second inspection it seems like they made the subject *human trafficked migrants*(somewhat of a parallel to Superman’s own situation) for the precise purpose of dramatizing the hard line that Superman has to draw, like *even in a case like this your punching and building powers can not cement permanent change so they’re essentially irrelevant*
When you get to the *non intervention* phase of the character(which was incorporated into the donner movies) the paradoxes of the character’s abilities and existential context are basically built back into the mythology itself
Basically the mythology of Superman goes farther with your thesis at the end of the video to definitively stating that there is no **good, political individual** any political individual innately assumes the role of the false god somewhere down the line. Someone committing full force to their political ideals can look like luigi mangione or it could look like Donald trump. In that panel Batman mentions that Superman could redistribute wealth but he could also force women to carry pregnancies to term. And to use this analogy to address another point of criticism, Superman wouldn’t be any less reactionary if he became injustice Superman instead of just showing up reinforce some faulty infrastructure. Is Donald trump any less reactionsry than Luigi mangione? The writers live to rub this shit in Superman’s face via power hierarchy topping characters like lex and Batman, especially in something like red son where Superman is forced to go to his room for essentially just striving to establish a global socialist utopia. And bonus points, everything I just said is basically lex’s schizo ramble about god in Batman v Superman as well as the meta-politics informing Batman’s decision to off Superman
Superman is just super………..man.
If Superman, then why no DUPERman?
8:00 Now I'm picturing Superman Putting Old Bay on everything
Clark Kent struggling to say Iron, Aaron, and Urn 🤣
@@ZiggyGamma Superman calling people “Dummies” (is this why I love Superman so much?🤣🤣)
superman is a person that maintain the status quo he is not left or right same goes for most superhero's even the hero's that tackle real world problems at best they beat a villain and pray for a better world but will do nothing that cause real change. This is causing comics are never ending and must reset every few years.
James gun movie may change things like how the Christopher Reeve movies did but that is unlikely
That's fair. The teaser for me does kinda look like what I expected from a James Gunn Superman movie: openly bright and optimistic hero although having to come to terms with major flaws that'll hit him hard. I do trust James to grapple an interesting approach for big blue; common thing I've noticed with his superhero flicks is flawed individuals with a deep past having to overcome odds and find place in a world to belong. I am interested and hyped to see what he does.
As for the champion of the oppressed, I am a fan of it, but do acknowledge it hasn't been a big thing like it used to be and do think the character is at odds with making him as this perfect paragon or the guy who is wanting to do all good yet introduced to new internal conflicts or personal flaws that he needs to face. Really wanna read more from the '70s cause handful of issues I've read sounds like my jam
@@nathansnyder96 I'd definitely recommend the Kirby stuff. Not a lot of it, but what's there is pretty fun.
I kinda see thst champion of the oppressed being shown in the superman trailer
Imagine making a video complaining about superman based on silver age.
@@melvingenao550 i don't have to...?
Never could I imagine that a subjective youtube video title can be both wrong grammatically and thematically
Future me here, I'm wrong, he's cooking
Don't worry. There's plenty of time for me to disappoint
There is a way to synthesize all of this namely Superman represents cultural superiority whether expressed as Marxism or imperialism
Oh exactly so now you're gonna say that it's the job of a firefighter to act reactively not proactively so that you could say that it's the role of a God to act reactively not proactively without having to say that it's the role of a God to act reactively not proactively because you don't wanna tell people that their answers their prayers are never gonna be answered ever?
nah
@@phangkuanhoong7967 k
The pessimist and neutral reactions prove something James Gunn said "Kindness is now something that seems old fashioned", it's hard for people to believe that a film about positivism and hope can be good, we live in a modern world where lust and vices are an all-time high and so engrave in the pop culture that we forgot what's the American way what's religion and the traditional values that made the west so great.
I don't like people who want to make Superman a political character because that's divisive, for me superman represents traditional values nothing more.
I don't want to watch this video anymore, he says it's incredibly dated and it sounds like he believes it, but it's only been a few days.
@@graizur When I recorded the video, Luigi was on trial for murder. When I was editing, he was acquitted. Thus, the joje was dated. Sorry if not clear(?)
"good is culturally and ideologically reletive." Even more granular than that, the word good doesn't alwasys have moral conotations. So it's even more drilled down, good is just a word for positive or other than frustrating, or convinient. It's just a word :"Cue Hillary clinton v Obma JUST WORDS and then just words speech from obama and then annother 25 minutes of cultural synthysis of Snyder the word SNIDE and Why Wonder Woman overwriting her ex-boyfriend over that guy is just par for the course being around Gods.
ANd then you end witha quote from Cyclops from Earth X or Universe X about how Xavier was obvi wrong when a sneeze from a powerful enough pubescent mutant can cause casualties like a small war, in a second.
Yeah people are just mad at Zack Snyder because he didn’t put the big scary black man in a dress this is what I’ve been saying since BvS thank you
@@ethanjannes7587 huh...?
So you so you just mentioned the white man's burden in relation to Superman and you just said that the first two films were about him wrestling with the idea of between the idea of a human and the idea of a God really in modern parlance we just called it power dynamics and now you're hiding and afraid to associate firemen with deities or with the status of deity lost sort of totally associating those two things.
Why don’t you have this then.
Start Clark off as a morally self righteous SJW superman taking out his anger that the world doesn’t live up to his ideals. And have the Kent’s teach him more about compassion and altruism
Interesting way of phrasing that, but ok.
How is that fascinating? I had to replay that section of the video because you made a middle-interesting thing an intro, then you summed up the intro twice, and then you said it's fascinating that the first two films are about him wrrestling with the power dynamic. Are you trying to be interesting by putting the real tittle hidden in a bunch of intentionaly forgettable language filler, and then one idea that you are now going to answer an unanswered question? I don't wanna ask what is so interesting and then have you answer it because the introduction of the concept that's so interesting could have already been explained just spent 5 minutes you could have worked in this interesting aspect into those past five minutes now I'm hearing a new sentence about something that's so interesting and you're saying that it's already relating to the past lines it's it's some sort of puzzle? Is begging the question but I don't like the begging like if we were in a conversation you would say wait wait and I would be like what are you doing.
This is par for the course. Superheroes are modern myth. Naturally they reflect the zeitgeist and shift to match the emotional underpinnings of the dominant culture. So particular elements get downplayed or played up depending on the era until we basically settle on a general set of norms for a character. Nature of the beast.
I think the fun in adaptation is recontextualizing all that history and commentary into a new cocktail that feels true to the source material yet forges its own path. It’s how you can keep getting different takes on characters that still feel like that character. I’m looking forward to James Gunn’s Superman. He looks to be injecting some Silver Age weirdness into a Christopher Reeve inspired Superman with Snyder social commentary. I think this is a good blend because it delves more into unique Superman flavor with things like Krypto that has never been done before in live action while also harkening back to the familiar.
Snyder’s commentary always failed because they didn’t give Superman a character to converse with the commentary. He was just monosyllabic and offered no pushback to the idea that Superman wasn’t needed, even agreeing with that sentiment at times. It gave Superman an eerie otherwordly feeling which just throws everything off. Gunn seems to be improving upon that by actually having a Superman that challenges the cynical norm of today. That’s important if any social commentary is going to be attempted. You need that back and forth if any of it is going to matter.
The movie can stand for something without marginalizing half the country fairly easily. I think Superman v. the Elite is a great example
Oof. Yeah, not one of my favorites 😅
You said sarcastically "superman isn't..." what was effectively Anti-fa, and then showed a bunch of comics to highlight how wrong that is, but you used comics from like the last 8 years where no one is reading them because they suck... because he's acting like Anti-fa.
Saying "superman doesn't" isn't a literal statement about the content of literally every single comic he's ever been in, it's a statement about what he _should be_ despite the ways many creators are trying to twist and corrupt him. If you can't uncorrupt him, then the character is finished. If he spends more of his time being an embarrassing leftwing extremist propaganda piece, then the character will wither and fall out of public interest.
The extremist left still has not come to terms with the reality that making superman or Luke Skywalker, or Spiderman, or James Bond, act and do the things that everyone hates, won't make them love those things more, they'll just hate the character.
So I don't know what your point is by showing comics that no one has ever read and will never read and acting like that should be the cultural zeitgeist of what superman is, but the bottom line is people want superman to be superman again because he hasn't been for a long time. I have no idea if James Gunn will Deliver it, in fact I kind of doubt it because I've disliked his entire body of work so far, but in so far as the trailer goes, he at least is trying to convince us that superman is going to be superman again.
@@keegobricks9734 did you miss the part in the 14 minute video where i said he was created as a socialist power fantasy but was evolved into an apolitical corporate mascot throughout the silver and bronze age...?
@@MysticalGreenBeanie Then why intersperse comics that try to undermine that thesis?
@@keegobricks9734 you mean New 52 and Earth One? Comics that took the character back to his Champion of the Oppressed roots, and were deemed "edge lord" for it?
@@MysticalGreenBeanie I don't know what it was, it was a handful of comic scenes very early on in the video when you kept saying sarcastically "Superman isn't X".
I still don't get your point, you're saying it's not edge-lord just because it was closer to how he was in the golden age?
You mean when I was mocking superficial criticisms of Grant Morrison's Action Comics, Greg Pak's Superman, and Superman Earth One, despite those being some of the best comics with the character in the past 20 years?