I don't know if it's about redeeming Eggman as much as it's about trying to breathe life into a character who officially peaked with Forces. Eggman's schemes can't really get more interesting then him outright taking over the world. So Sage is I guess Sonic Team's attempt to take him in a less ambitious direction.
@SuperHamachiBrother1 Eggman was always supposed to be someone who believes by conquering the world he'll build a utopia and that he's more selfish and oblivious to what he's doing to the world than being darkness incarnate like in Western interpretations.
It's ironic. Flynn is now obsessed with dark stories (and has for years), but his preboot work was uplifting. It showed how important it is to try and move on from tragedy, and not let your trauma define you.
Flynns idea of dark is having his queer OCs cry to each other about how everything sucks while the actual sonic characters people care about sit around and act ooc
On the topic of everyone wanting Eggman dead and him being a mainstay villain, It's quite simple. Have him escape and have characters believe he is unstoppable, that's the vibe I always got for years, they just can't ever seem to catch him. He always escapes and everyone hates him for it. That's it, and it's fun. Fun as hell to see
This creates a cycle where neither of them can get the upper hand and they pretty much waste each other time. Can't say I'm a fan of this. It's fun but I prefer an actual ending to the story and conflict.
@@alexandrpeterberg390 The problem is that Sonic isn't a story, but a franchise incorporating multiple forms of media, primarily video games. This means that as long as SEGA wants Eggman around, there will never be a conclusion to his conflict with Sonic. Same goes for any character arcs for mainstay characters such as Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, etc.
@knuxuki1013 Eggman is still alive since Sonic is a toon series where characters casually survive explosions and falling from space. Sonic in game canon just isn't bothered to do more than smack around Eggman then quickly move onto somewhere else once Eggman is beaten.
@@galten7361 Most Sonic ever does aside from beating Eggman is sabotaging his jetpack at the end of Lost World, causing him to fall back to Earth. Logically, this would kill Eggman, but since cartoon logic is in play, he survived.
As someone who likes all of Ian Flynn’s work despite its flaws, this was really eye opening to see. Especially to find out that what made his work and the comics themselves loose steam was that Ian was being driven further away from his own writing element and forced into situations he can’t properly plan and write for. It makes me feel bad for the guy that he had to go through that and having to tolerate both the creators and fans for as long as he has. Hope Ian Flynn gets his big break someday soon!
Seems like he might, since Evan Stanley been taking over more for idw, and Flynn getting brought on to write for the main games which take like 4 years to come outthere’s a good chance he’ll get some time to scale back maybe even wait for Sega to lift their damn mandates.
This is one of few videos I've seen that critics Flynn pretty fairly. They aren't disrespectful towards him and his accomplishments, and have fair points to problems that have been in most of his works. I think Flynn is a good idea man, he does some real great pulls from the Sonic franchise that are very appreciated and he's always been clearly a fan first. However, he often fails to conclude story arcs in IDW in a satisfying or meaningful matter. Metal Virus had a really neat Super Sonic and Super Silver fight with a powered up Zavok, but what happened afterwards was really messy.
I am of the firm belief that Sonic still doesn’t have a definitive writer even to this day. The Neal Adams so to say who not only understands the characters and the lore on a deep level as to know how to realise them but actually elevate the series to new heights to aim for. If it’s possible to make a fully-rounded Sonic from Pre-Reboot Archie, Fleetway, Pre-Colors Era and a little of Paramount, you have a perfect Sonic who can embody the cool hedgehog with an attitude but has layers to his personality like the fact he can feel grief or rage when pushed to a certain point and have character flaws that grounds him without coming off as a jock. He can be the most inspirational guy around on one end and be a cocky ass on the other. Have a dynamic range and still be consistent without coming off as an idiot (Sonic Prime), a self-righteous hypocrite (IDW) or a shallow caricature (The Meta Era). Ian Flynn isn’t that guy. He’s more like the John Byrne of Sonic. Although his body of work is good, there are creative choices and things he does that doesn’t exactly sit right with a number of fans. I also say he’s bit of a James Roberts guy too as he’s got a number of fans who worships him and kisses the ground but trashing on everything else while there’s people who aren’t suckered into the hype.
@@rayvenkman2087 Highly accurate. Honestly I think Sonic is better off without a definitive writer. He should be interpreted in any way to help expand potential, rather than just narrow it to a single tone. And spot on with the James Roberts comparison, a lot of the time people can't say anything ill about Ian without someone coming in to defend him.
@@Channeleven2345789 I think someone else made a comparison between James and Ian. I would say that if James Roberts is the Steven Moffat of Transformers right down to the smug egotistical energy levels with tripe that belongs in the bad fanfiction realm and being built off the work of their Robert Holmes/Simon Furman, then I’ll say Ian could be the RTD or Dave Filoni of Sonic where they’ve produced great stories worthy of praise but also produce the most daft creative decisions that’s ever graced the IP. And like RTD, they love to backhand the Archie Era the way NuWho fans loves to dunk on 80’s Classic Who. One was a successful series that went through a troubling period before finding it’s feet but get unfairly cancelled by a POS with a face that makes you want to punch it instinctively while the other is coasting in a post-Weadon landscape right down to the annoying smugness the new work has going on. Also like RTD, more people are starting to see through the narrative and call for some new blood talent that’s not from the same clique as him. Only difference between them is that Sega isn’t a dumpster fire like the BBC and their restrictions in place are stopping Ian from going full Current Day Disney Era RTD on Sonic which is a very horrifying thought considering this is the same IDW that allowed Sophie Campbell to be on TMNT for four years and allowing the awful Transformers: Lost Light and TF vs Visionaries to see print without any proper editorial supervision to make them people actually wants to read. I can dislike Sega for their stupid mandate because of the actions of one but I also get why it exists because without anything to restrain Ian, he could potentially do more damage than Ken ever could. Possibly. I think a definitive Sonic writer would resolve the fandom dispute of what Sonic is supposed to be by giving them something that can meet them in the middle and be on the same page with. A great Sonic writer would be able to justice to all aspects of Sonic. A Sonic that’s more in line with what they know but one that can go to new and exciting territories rarely seen since 2006. A Shouen Jump style adventure with a little injection of Dwayne McDuffie in the writing and other international flavourings to make something that’s cool, awesome and rad but full of depth. A Sonic Adventure that can give you the epic of Heisei Gamera, the excitement of Kung Fu Panda 1-3 and the quiet introspection of Avatar The Last Airbender. Hitting that sweetspot of Total Recall 1990’s badass action, exciting setpieces and a literary thoughtfulness that avoids coming off as overly pretentious. If he’s supposed to be the cool counter to Mario, he’s gotta bring the cool with him and more. That’s just me though.
@@rayvenkman2087 I'm honestly not a fan of Archie, but that's a can of worms I don't feel like going into. I feel like Ian's stories are derivative at best, and grossly overblown by some particularly passionate fans, and it honestly numbs them for me in the longrun. I'd like something in line with the Adventure era of Sonic, but not something uber serious.
If Shiro Maekawa never left Sonic Team, we wouldn't be having any of these problems. He wrote basically every Sonic story up until the 2010s when everything changed. I wouldn't accept anyone else as a "definitive writer."
I think The Whisper and Tangle Solo Series was probably Ian's best work: and alot of that probably is helped by Stanley helping him alot with it, it seems going off credits for the series: Plus it was something genuinely different for the time especially, It felt like an actual honest attempt to tell a somewhat dark and more personal story.
@@Ujulahipobaka121 What? Just because I say something implies, that I don't have a standard of hygiene; Or that I don't spend literally most of my time now working outside to begin with: Do kindly go pound sand ass-hat.
Let me clarify: Ian Flynn DID NOT write the story of Sonic Frontiers. Morio Kishimoto and Jyunpei Ootsu did. All Ian did was write the dialogue. The dialogue is NOT the story. He just wrote what the characters would SAY. If you want to praise or critique the story, don't look at Flyn; look at Jyunpei and Morio. Morio also directed the game, so whatever Ian wrote, Morio, Jyunpei, AND Iizuka had to approve of it. Whatever idea Flynn had, THEY either agreed or disagreed with it. Ian only contributed 5% to this game; he wasn't essential. It was the developers and ESPECIALLY Morio, who are the reason why this game is so amazing. Morio had the most control of this game, not Ian. The developers wanted to take Sonic in a new direction and tested this new formula. When they got it, THEN they wrote the story, because that's how it very often goes in Japanese game development. Gameplay first, then story. The story you see here was made by Morio and Jyunpei. All Ian did was make the dialogue fit the serious tone. Why am I saying this? I am sick and tired of people claiming that he is the sole reason why Frontiers succeeded, while his writing is awful. You can't convince me that the Sonic he writes in the comic is the same one we see in Frontiers. Also, Iizuke is an unsung hero and deserves WAY more credit. He begged SEGA to delay the release of this game because it wasn't finished yet. If they didn't listen to him, Frontiers would've failed, and Sonic would've no longer been SEGA's mascot, and porbably cancelled. So without Iizuka and Morio, there wouldn't have been any more Sonic games.
Yeah, but dialogue is like 80% of Frontiers' story. Most of the scenes are just characters talking to each other about what's going on. So I think you're underselling how much control he did have over the story. Iirc Flynn said in an interview that the process was more fluid then just he gives them ideas and they say approve or don't. They had back and forths discussions about their plans and Sonic Team came up with ideas themselves while working with him. It was more of a collaboration then you're making it sound.
@@SuperHamachiBrother1 which proves that he himself didn't write the entire thing. You said that they had to approve his ideas, which means they had the final say.
@@Zavraanoh, yeah, I do agree that people who assume Flynn is the only reason they enjoyed the story are clearly bias towards Sonic Team. I just wanted to clarify that it was indeed a collaboration.
Wrong. Kishimoto has said time and time again that he had to write the script based off Ian's script. As a result, it ended up a mess, and the JP fanbase prefers the English script.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 You can't convince me that the guy who wrote the Metal Virus and "I want everybody to be free" also wrote the story of Frontiers. The IDW comics have left more of a bad impact on the franchise than a good one, while Frontiers litterally saved it. ( again, thanks to Iizuka ) If these comics get cancelled in the future, I wouldn't be surprised. SEGA is not even acknowledging IDW that much, because its losing money. Why? The stories are terrible. Frontiers was amazing, not thanks to Ian.
After reading Preboot, I find the stories there much better than IDW and Reboot. IanWaffles, if he is there, what would you want to see in a Sonic story?
It’s a shame we lost that version of Ian. The fresh, youthful and unrestrained version who could easily make IDW Sonic the Skybound Transformers for the publisher in terms of making a book that gets people talking and shortlisting it for pickups.
Man, I'm not gonna lie, whenever I looked at a sonic comic I've always turned around and ran. I never thought these people would infiltrate the games. This is good, getting me caught up.
And as for Sonic character assassination in IDW, one can't go saying they love something or someone while simultaneously plunging a knife into that same thing.
I think Ian Walffles' idea on Whisper is the best route but to not loose the namesake can be if she gets embarrassed or feels unable to approach new people is that she tends to whisper her sentences until she is comfortable with that new person Or in stealth mode.
I'm sorry but I felt the Genesis wave, out side of being a means to retcon the characters lost due to the Pender's suit, was a copout and a lazy means of finishing the Mech-Sally arch. So much character growth and potential development was wasted with by not properly concluding the arch. It would have been fantastic to see what lengths Sonic and the Freedom Fighters would have gone to get Sally back and how she would handle the trauma of being turned into a living weapon and forced to hurt those she loves. Such a waste.
To be fair, what else could have been done? I don't know the corporate politics behind the creation of the Reboot between Sega and Archie, but I'm not so sure it be safe to say it was a cop out, who knows if there was any other alternatives or not but if it still frustrates you than your entitled to feel that way
Interestingly, sonics morality is very similar to that of Goku's during the Moro arc. Goku has a conversation with Merus that has a similar tune to Sonics convo with Surge where he is asked why he lets his enemies live and why doesn't kill them. Similar to sonic his reasoning is pretty selfish in that he keeps enemies around because he's confident if they get stronger and stay evil he will just get stronger then them and stop them, and after this has happened enough times they will hopefully turn good. The manga tries to justify Goku's decision by showing how only through the help of people that Goku has spared and let change (the androids, Vegeta, Majin Buu, and Uub) does he beat Moro, but this ignores the fact that he lets someone like Frieza roam free where in instances like the end of the Broly movie we know that Frieza just casually destroys planets (killing millions if not billions) just for fun, so people do suffer from Goku's decisions. Thankfully the manga doesn't repeatedly ask this question to Goku, or even really try to justify it explicitly, but the criticism is still there. For Sonic you can point to something like how him not having Metal Sonic decommissioned before the metal virus outbreak is what eventually lead to them saving the day because he was there to help take down Zavok in the end, but the issues with keeping around someone like Eggman or Zavok still exists.
I mean some of his stuff with sonic archie like the prison break and unleashed adaptation were some of the best stories in my opinion. I still think its higher ups reatricting Ian story telling but scences involving Sage in frontiers felt too try hardie or just came out of no where for me. I liked the references in frontiers but some of it is just what, why mention that now. Like not many people know Amy plays with terrocards, and that was never showcased within the game. You can't just state that without reason. You confuse both new and old fans
I think Crazy Elf said something like this before, but I hate this notion that Eggman is supposed to be this embodiment of evil who wants to kill everyone and everything. I thought he was supposed to be a goofy ‘80s cartoon villain.
@TubeLoobMouse He's supposed to represent Man and also tycoons, pollution, war/militarism science being misused. Eggman is oblivious to what he's doing to the world and believes his actions will build utopia. His Western characterizations as a rule make him more of a Dark Lord and/or robot Hitler who's pollutive for the sake of it and actively sees himself as a force of darkness in the world.
I'm not as much of a dedicated fan when it comes to Sonic comics (both Archie and IDW), but I do spend some time watching videos and essays related to them. and while I do hear some issue with the latter by some folks recently, and I have some gripes with IDW too. this video really strike the nail on the internal problem from the comic. While I like the characters of IDW, I would lie to myself that I wish that there's more to them than just leaving them without developing any further. it's all ideas (good ideas actually) but with no form of execution or how any of the characters to grow from. especially the comic feature characters despite being more lenient from the SEGA regulations that he keep bringing up. But I guess that you can only blame SEGA far too many times until it becomes more evident that you're also part of the problem with the writing Ian Flynn. I don't know too much about your thoughts on Scrapnik Island, Lavi. to me it's probably the most completed story arc outside of the anniversary classic Sonic comics. it's a generally great comic in it's premise, artwork, and characters. But the fact that the only time Sonic actually connected with the villain with his morals and ended on a good note is written by Daniel Barnes who has little to no input by Ian speak volumes.
Dang, nice breakdown. Awesome work and yeah, Ian needs a break. Ironically, I came in when Flynn started with the Darkest Storm arc in the Archie run so I'm familiar with his writing style.
Quality podcast right here. I couldn't keep reading IDW and you succinctly summarized the reasons why. This comic is like being in limbo. I didn't read the latest chapters so maybe Evan can make it better?? Also am I the only one who hates how tacked-on the Zeti are? They are still one-note bad guys from Lost World, but this time they KILL people FOR REAL, so DARK and MATURE! These guys are a load of bull.
Yeah, Flynn completely missed the point. The Zeti were never meant to be taken that seriously as villains. Even before Lost World was released, it was stated they were created to bring a sense of humor and danger to the story. The only one meant to be taken remotely seriously is Zavok, the rest are just his wacky minions.
Yeah, it's just kind of baffling, because the Zeti would be PERFECT for lower stakes, one off stories with a tone similar to the Classic Sonic stories. Heck, at their full potential I believe that they're capable of being incredibly versatile villains than can fit most roles. But Ian keeps them into a very specific niche that they don't fill all that well.
@@felixdaniels37 I wouldn't mind then getting actual development at all, Archie did it with lots of obscure one-offs and it was alright. Maybe it's the character mandates again, who knows.
IDW, and specifically the Metal Virus arc really got me into the comics, but then I read Flynn Era PreBoot, and it makes me wonder what made Ian fall off so hard. PreBoot was amazing, and makes IDW look like a joke.
2:31:26 "None of you really care about us. You just want us. You want to see how you can change us. What you can turn us into, to prove that you're right." Damn that's a hell of a solid line! It's not just taking a swing at how Sonic been acting. It's also taking a swing at IAN'S interpretation on how "Sonic SHOULD be acting." That is a wild ending to have.
In defence of Sonic, his methods have worked with certain enemies and rivals before and this is the one time it didn't. Surge didn't help her case by going on wanton destruction either, which makes this pretty hypocritical on Ian's part.
@@Skeleton20133 But they were still against him in some way or another, like Blaze who believed she didn't need any one backing her up, and Silver who honestly thought he was saving his future, and Sonic was left in the dark as to why the latter wanted him dead, and Knuckles who was just duped. Like I said, his methods still worked, and Surge and Kit are very much evil, still my point still stands.
@@xdomeman Except you're still wrong. It was Amy and Cream who convinced Blaze that she can't do things on her own and Knuckles helped Sonic after he was tricked by Eggman and realized that Sonic was never the enemy.
@@Skeleton20133 Sonic also had a hand in convincing Blaze just so you know. Not to mention Sonic 3 was very early in terms of storytelling so whether Sonic was showboating or not in that game we can't say for sure.
I think we need a team that actually understands Sonic. That can make great stories that can actually develop characters. They need to stop trying to canonize everything to make sense, because eventually it won't make any sense. When will we get an update and upgrade in Character models, animations, gameplay better writing. 😢
never sega is happy doing the bare minimum while normies and sonics most hardcore meat-, i mean fans buy and do anything for sonic. i see more realistic sega droping sonic as their mascot for either yakuza or some of atlus ips.
You don't even have to like Archie to see the difference in scope between it and IDW. Archie is insane, but at least it was running with its own madness sincerely. IDW is content to just wallow in mediocrity and do the bare minimum. This extends to Flynn himself, ofc. Idk what Flynn needs to get his spark back. But I do know IDW needs new writers. Cuz Stanley really has nothing interesting to add to this series that Flynn didn't start already. And he's just on autopilot now. Maybe IDW needs it's own reboot or something. Idk but something about this comic needs to change drastically if it wants to be good.
Ian and the others writers have said time and time again that the comics have extreme guidelines set in place by Sega to keep them canon to the games, thus nobody can do anything dramatic compared to their Archie days.
That's one of the reasons I love preboot. It had such a huge scope with so many characters and plotlines that the writers (Karl Bollers doesn't get enough credit) and artists poured their hearts into.
reminder that people on twitter want him unironically dead for his writing, i think he's flawed (like any writer ever) but the fact that happens to him is disgusting
Nobody on the LaviCast had ever condoned that and the last I checked, their friend Max Wasson wants nothing to do with Randomfox, Georgiy, AquillisArtz & Darklightheart for wishing death on Ian Flynn
@@E-102GammaMKII i mean fair but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be known since it's a really awful act for someone to do just because they don't like his way of writing
@@kaobunn tbh I agree some toxic fans just like to send him death threats or slandering him to make him look bad...I'm not saying his writing since let go metal sonic and the way shadow written in IDW is a thing...but he genuinely doesn't deserve that much hate Only because doesn't suit other fans' expectations...this man wrote for sonic the hedgehog atleast 16 years straight so he's pretty much a good sonic writer if not perfect...there are some flaws with his writing in IDW but overall he did a good job with the writing and with the characters but the fact this guy's gets way too much to the point wanting him gone and dead is just really immature these mfs need to get a life seriously stop listening to these mfs seriously stop listening to these toxic fans because some of them are just want to slander Ian flynn and say he's straight up awful sure his writing isn't perfect but it's not that bad! Dare I say good even..I'm just tired of people keep saying ((Ian Flynn wants to destroy the sonic franchise he's a awful sonic writer etc..)) seriously this fandom is toxic as hell!
It's sad seeing what happened to Flynn. Because of him, preboot Archie is my favorite story ever, no exaggeration. He took a comic I genuinely did like for all its flaws, and made a goofy, over-the-top, emotional masterpiece with heart and edge and sincerity. To me, reboot and especially IDW feel like a personal insult (IDW, only parts of reboot). Reboot had some really good stuff, but mostly not. What really pains me is that Flynn has said he thinks he's gotten the best at writing Sonic over the years, which I laughed at. Preboot mattered, and nothing can convince me otherwise, no matter what Flynn tries to do.
@@E-102GammaMKIIDo you have a source for that? I know he thought a redesign would help their case for being kept after the reboot, but I haven’t heard anything about him pushing for a reboot.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 Funny that Ian said that the reboot was the "fast-forward button" in regards to his ultimate goal. Not to mention, he originally planned to kill Antoine. He already made Sally's roboticization irreversible when he weaponized her. Add on to the fact that he had her killed TWICE, once in his fancomic and the other time in Archie 225, and it seems very suspect. Also, I don't respect the guy who tried to turn Sally and Nicole into lesbians.
Curious if you guys have an opinion on the Sonic Forces Overclocked story and it’s portrayal of Sonic? Think it hits that good middle ground of cocky but still heroic. Even though the execution was sorta weird, the character arc they gave him with the avatar was brief but neat, tied together well with the conflict against the villains. If you haven’t, check it out, it’s a fun time with Forces, crazy feat I know lol.
52:27 Feel free to correct me because I've barely read much Archie as a whole (I have seen a comic dub of that Sonic the Fighters arc though.) But that can still work. Remember Chip has been inside the earth ever since it formed so I can see him doing basic stuff as really important memories. Again i'm probably wrong so feel free to correct me.
The problem isn't that Chip is treasuring "basic" memories. It's the fact that Ian literally had to make all of that up to begin with. Sonic Unleashed's story hinged on being able to see Sonic and Chip's misadventures firsthand. That was part of the reason we even got the "Night of the Werehog" short. It's to show both Chip and the audience that there is good to be found all around the world, and all of it is worth fighting for. But Flynn was so preoccupied with juggling the Freedom Fighters on top of the game cast that Chip was effectively an afterthought in his own arc. So at the last second Ian fabricates these memories that never actually happened so he can claim Chip had character development. It all feels unearned. Any sort of thematic purpose in the Unleashed arc was stripped away entirely.
I know some people who know the true Sonic (The JP Sonic) and they give Ian Flynn a lot of shit for getting the Sonic characters wrong. One of them said that IDW Sonic is awful because of its characterization in it. The other is just giving a lot of shit to Ian Flynn for getting those characters wrong. Now I have a lot of respect for Ian Flynn for the masterpiece that is Pre-Reboot Archie Sonic but I will admit that I think he should step down at this point as the quality of his writing has deteriorated and he is doing more harm than good. Now if you know the REAL Sonic, you should know that the real reason why Sonic keeps Eggman around is because he is having fun wrecking his stuff and making him angry. Also, Eggman is not only a narcissist, but he is also a killer. But of course, since Sonic is a kid's franchise, you don't get to see Eggman kill people.
He's also fallen into a really annoying trend that has been plaguing nerd culture as of late: the deconstruction of heroes. Lost World already did that, and it was quick, and it didn't linger for very long, but the comics just dragged Sonic's flaws for multiple issues and it made me quit the IDW comics because of it. I'm tired of seeing my childhood icons getting torn apart by bitter people.
@@xdomeman I also heard of another annoying trend where a lot of villains with tragic backstories, the villains with redemption arcs, and stuff like that. I mean it's nice to have nuanced villains but at the same time, it's also nice to have pure evil completely unredeemable villains. A villain that is practically an embodiment of evil. Are trends ever a good thing?
@@alexandrpeterberg390 it's especially annoying in shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and games like Spider-Man: Miles Morales. It's like: "My dad left me and my mom and then my mom was blown up by wyt criminals, and that's why I'm a terrorist who causes random destruction."
@alexandrpeterberg390 Eggman is fine with killing but there's no real evidence he's reliably murderous towards anyone who isn't an enemy and wouldn't achieve his goals without killing if he could (if only from having to avoid fighting). He's callous.
I think this just wouldn't be a problem if it were more like the games in the first place. Eggman in the games is depicted as a bad guy sure, but he's not outright, explicitly shown to be like, evil incarnate. He's just an egotistical jerk placing his mark everywhere, like a vain politician. Yes, realistically that kind of person would likely be a dictator and responsible for killing a lot of people... buuuuut this isn't the real world. it's a funny talking cartoon animal one, and I think this whole aspect of his character in the comic is an outdated carryover from the SatAM variation which, itself, was just a black-and-white "cute critters protect the environment" narrative. At worst his schemes get out of hand when he summons some of godlike entity that threatens a city, the planet, existence. I know there's edge cases where he sets up a bomb in station square or threatens to fire the ARK cannon on earth, but my point is the games never let him cross that line explicitly, he's always stopped or undercut by something else. This allows the character to still be endearing. I don't really think about Sonic needing to do more than take Eggman down a peg in the games, and by extension the games never dwell further on it. And rightly so, since there's no way they could adequately address that without killing a character, metaphorically or literally. It'd be stupid to even bring up.
Tbh, although I don't really read much about this guy's comics (and I... really DON'T care, i consider him just another writer anyway), one thing that did annoy me was that he basically implies that sonic first met eggman DURING sonic 1, even tho it's basically obvious that it is not their first time meeting (like how eggman is always prepared to attack sonic and how the December 2020 sonic channel page of Dr eggman is still saying that they met before sonic 1, not during it.), heck not even S1's opening cutscene in the game implies it's their first time meeting, unlike sonic 2's cutscene where it is obvious that tails first met sonic there. This isn't even the first time he wrote it like this, in the sonic genesis comics (aka the time eggman just reset the universe the first time), which adapts sonic 1 and 2, eggman and sonic first met there. Ian Flynn just... really has a habit of just making eggman and sonic first meet in the 1st game instead of before. Lol
Honestly, I was never a fan of Flynn's writing. While it may be petty, I can't help but feel somewhat vindicated by the current state of affairs. At least Stanley seems to be starting to pick up steam.
I don't think this should be the downfall of ian...he just needs to take the criticism and change up his writing a bit and with his skills I'm sure he can do something that benefits himself, company and dans
because is has been a open secret that surge is ians and idw wanna be scourge as a fuck you to ken penders and the tendensy of these two bump heads after the lawsuit. sadly surge just fall off after the that issue were she looks like has died. most people who love surge like her because of her "punk" aesthetic/attitude or just to insult penders because "ian good penders bad" mentallity
@@Aidel1011 most fans have never even read fleetway anyway. Fleetway super sonic is legit the only thing people know from that whole comic to where he’s completely eclipsed the comic in popularity so barely anyone has actually the story to understand him
Or IDW fans gassing up IDW Sonic while putting down Archie Sonic. Even the latter is the reason their favourite got a gig and Pre-Reboot containing the objectively best version of Ian Flynn the same way we say 1996-1997 Pre-Neck Injury Stone Cold Steve Austin is objectively the best version of the character when he was throwing down with Bret Hart and Brian Pilman.
Watching this again and again and I keep thinking the same thing. Ian Flynn is basically the Don Bluth of Sonic. When given direction and material to work with, he does great. When he's left alone to do his own thing however, it's a mess. But people like it anyways xD
I don't think thats a fair comparison to Don Bluth in particular. For all of his faults, Don Bluth was genuinely a storyteller. He always wanted to tell themes with meani g to them, he never relied on fanservice and clout to get his way like Ian does.
i enjoyed this deep dive from beginning to end. it's easily one of my favorite videos from this channel now, really highlighting how much archie sonic's morality has bled into idw as well as the decline in sincerity when it comes to crafting amazing plot threads using previously established story elements. i've had nothing but problems with ian's writing and all of his recent contributions to sonic, including the countless amounts of fans that defend his inaccurate portrayal of the character himself. i get the impression that ian either doesn't care to reflect on criticism, or that he's ran out of tricks to rely on like fan service and references that hide his lack of understanding for the game versions of the characters. i had a realization towards the end that i may have been too harsh on evan in my own criticisms of idw, not realizing that she's been picking up after the mess ian left her with in issue 50. she's not by any means perfect, but i never really considered what all of this would look like in her position. she's shown her ability to improve both as an artist and a writer in how she's practiced to draw the characters to be more on-model and how she's been handling silver and shadow as of late, and that's very praise worthy.
It seems Ian is unable to reflect on any criticisms because his fans validate everything he does, and try to stifle any meaningful criticism thrown his way.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 as far as incorporation of criticisms I need to see. Doesn’t change the fact that a lot of Ian Flynn fans need to be kept on a short leash.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 even in his most recent work, the fang mini series, he felt the need to "connect" plot elements once again (in the form of the warp topaz and being a prequel to superstars) despite the track record of how many times that's caused problems so i really don't agree with that. there's also final horizons and its generally awful writing through superfluous lore dumps, making it feel as if he's talking through the characters which has been a long running issue with his writing in idw. i can't forget dream team either, where sonic now apparently gives his friends nicknames.
@@___8241I mean, the nickname thing isn't that far fetched. Tho it's something that came mainly from the movies version of Sonic, I think Sonic giving nicknames to people makes sense given how he named Chip, Eggman, and kept calling Tails by that nickname instead of his actual name. Or even how he keeps calling knuckles "Knucklehead" It wouldn't be the first time the games incorporate elements from other continuity, I don't see that as a very big deal. Shadow's inhibitor rings weren't a thing in the games until 06, Sonic liking chilly dogs wasn't a thing either until Unleashed/Black Knight. I think Sonic having a tendency to give nicknames adds some charm to his character. The issue I have with it is how it's brought up in Dream Team.
2:28:19 wait really? I like this comic a lot but I don’t think I’ve ever gone that far I surely don’t think it’s perfect I like it because I just thought it was a fun thing to read and pickup between games Imo the most annoying sonic is BOOM.
Only one thing left for Eggman: time for him to officially perish in the entirety of the franchise! He's been the ecoterrorist to Sonic's planet countless times over! When will enough be enough for the sonic franchise itself, Sega themselves and their fans?
Then the Sonic franchise itself ends and that’s that. There is no reason for the franchise to last as long as it has with the amount of failures it has without Eggman keeping the threat afloat.
@@whaleping And that's exactly what I'm going to do in my CGI remake of Sonic X in the finale episode and Sonamy have to be the ones to take Eggman's life - from then onwards, it will just be emotional moral challenges. Please don't get mad at me!😰
@@ameliawalker1046 Killing Eggman is really out of character for Sonic. If Sonic X shows anything it's that Sonic would go out of his way to save Eggman if he's in danger. Eggman is his main source of entertainment, and he considers him a rival not an enemy. Same for Eggman who saved Sonic multiple times and in the last episode of Sonic X season 2 where Sonic stayed on Earth with Chris he wanted to save Tails from his own missile because without Sonic if Tails also died he would have no one to fight.
Ok i thought this video was about him how he actually fell off but no it's just some dudes talking about why they don't like ian Flynn's writing...wow what a Click bait! This whole title and thumbnail is a click bait just because you don't like his writing which...that's fine and all everyone are entitled to their own opinions but that doesn't mean he actually fell off like what exactly do you mean by fell off did he do something truly terrible and bad to become someone like butch Hartman and their reputation actually go to shit or something? but no it's just some dude complaining about his writing and because they didn't liked his writing say he fell off :/ This whole video is a click bait just to get more views and likes that's the way i see it! Hypocrites.
Had to stop watching because your recap of the Archie comics is wrong. For starters, the E.V.E. story takes place way before the Egg Grapes and Evil Sonic stuff. Second, that page you were showing of Evil Sonic, Bunnie, the aliens, etc., is not even from a comic; it's just a collage of panels from various issues, some of which don't even occur near each other. Third, no, Evil Sonic does not "bang" Bunnie. In fact, she gets weirded out when he tries to kiss her. If you're going to criticize something, at least get your info straight.
Correction: you are worried about how Ian Flynn is going to write shadow since...he has full control of writing shadow's story in that game not the remaster itself because the remaster of generation was actually fine in the summer game fest.
To this day, I don’t understand why you guys keep saying Starline serves no purpose. His entire story proves to the reader why Eggman is not to be fucked with, it also amplifies the idea that Sonic and Co are uniquely equipped to deal with him because they’re just that good. Not just anyone can take on Doctor Eggman and win the guys an actual genius and a villain that’s what he did for the story. In terms of Starlines character arc it’s actually really good. It’s clearly not intentional but he feels like an evil version of Amy or Tails almost. Becomes obsessed with his idol, realizes they may not be all that, tries to be better but realizes that the person they looked up to was just as great as they thought to begin with. The fact that Starline thought he could even compete with Eggman just to get killed again, and he did leave an impact, He made Surge and Kit, and everything they do since his death is a direct result of Starlines actions in creating them, like idk what more you want
Eggman's incompetence during the Metal Virus Arc is the whole reason Starline did all he did. Bear in mind that the Deadly Six took control of Metal Sonic when Eggman sent him after them. Starline took into account that the Deadly Six turned on Eggman once the Cacophonic Conch was removed from the equation, and he knew that Zavok would undoubtedly betray him, too. He had a plan to have the Zeti control the Zombots because Eggman had no solid plan, which is something Ian himself said that Eggman never did, which contradicts the games. Starline's plan failed because he got too out of breath from using the Conch on them. Eggman supposedly studied the Zeti and learned about their ability to control magnetic fields, and by extension, machines. Sending a Badnik after an oni that can control said Badnik is a very bad idea. He only barely escaped their wrath. If Eggman is not to be messed with, how come Zavok is one of the only characters in this comic that makes the doctor panic? "Stop shooting my stuff with my stuff! Only I get to do that!" Doesn't sound so menacing, does he?
@@E-102GammaMKII because Zavok is a deadly threat? What kind of question is that? You don’t see him quaking in his boots with Mimic, Rough, or Tumble, and I’m sure Clutch isn’t going to scare him. Zavok can literally take over his army if Eggman isn’t careful of course the idea of going against him intimidates him, like what?
@@E-102GammaMKII I don’t know what this second quote it, that’s basically what happened to Starline. He rose above Eggman, Eggman brought him back down
@@JakeTylenol Rough and Tumble are just a pair of thugs who are basically the anime Team Rocket of Sonic. Mimic is only dangerous due to misdirection. And Clutch is working in the shadows to try and take over everything.
The scene is that robo robotnik is dressed like the og robotnik. Which includes looking like him. He is then sent through acid that melts his fake skin off. So even if it’s not REAL flesh, the image is meant to depict flesh melting off his face.
Tbh I don't think he's fallen off it's just sega's restrictions with the character, sense they're canon to the games it's kinda hard to do anything really meaningful when you're stepping on the actual canons feet
He can't do anything with the characters because they're Sega characters, he couldn't write shadow like he wanted too, and he's expressed that in one of his pod casts, I know he could've done something but still that doesn't mean he's officially fell off
I can't believe we live in a world where people get mad because a hero states what it means to be a hero, the job is to save everyone, and that includes the villains, mostly from themselves. His philosophy isn't anything new, yes there are circumstances where death is the only option but thats just it, it has to be the only option, if you can save the world without killing your villain then you go for that.
But guilt-tripping Shadow isn't what Sonic would do. Sonic was comparing Shadow to Eggman. "You tried to destroy the entire planet. Should I take you out along with Eggman? After all, if *he* can't be forgiven, can you?" The smirk that Sonic made at the end of that panel doesn't help things either. Sonic used Shadow's past against him to win the argument. The problem with your argument is that the villains in these comics are unrepentant, especially Eggman and the Deadly Six. They have NO desire to change for the better, and they made it clear that they enjoy the evil things that they do.
@@E-102GammaMKII 1. Sonic can be a jerk and a bit snarky, that's just part of his character. And it is a fair comparison, if sonic treated shadow like how shadow wanted to treat Eggman then he wouldn't be around today. 2. Just because someone doesn't want to change that doesn't mean they can't, anyone has potential to be different than they are now, Eggman showed this when he was Mr tinker, that was still him, he is capable of doing things he like and not hurting people, it's just going to take someone he actually cares about pushing him to change, that will most likely never happen because this is a franchise that is meant to go on forever and he is the main villain, but the potential to change is what really matters most. 3. Even if these villains are irredeemable our heros shouldn't take them out unless that is absolutely necessary, if they can avoid that by either delaying it or putting them behind bars then they should. Should Spider-Man kill shocker because he's a career criminal who has almost never shown signs of wanting to change? No because shocker is stop able just like the rest of his villains.
@@TiredMoonRabbit Yes, Sonic is a bit of a jerk, but never to this degree towards friends and allies. What he did in IDW Issue 6 is the polar opposite of what he did in _Sonic Battle;_ When Shadow says that he and Emerl are just weapons that don't have hearts, Sonic brought up the good that Shadow did. "I seem to recall that you saved the world." Also, Tinker is not Eggman. They are different people. Tinker is the result of brain damage. Note that when Eggman tried to pull the "I've turned over a new leaf" move, Sonic didn't fall for it. Because he knows the doctor. I'm not saying that Shadow was right to try to take out Tinker. Nor am I saying that Sonic should never be merciful and kill all his enemies. What I am saying is that the issue of "Why doesn't Sonic get rid of Eggman for good" shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.
@@RealBroccoliHour I'm aware, I wouldn't really call sonic a true hero at all, he just so happens to been on the side of "good" and doesn't like to immediately killing people. Think Finn from adventure time, he like fighting things and will kill anything he is told is evil, but once he realizes they aren't or that it's more complicated he stops, at least at the start of the show, sonic is similar but little bit different because he doesn't seem to really care if someone is evil or not.
i 100# believe someone in Sega HQ is sabotaging the sonic ip ian flynn gave ideas and wanted to fix the story as much as any good writer would but the higher ups continue to refuse good ideas or storylines or characterization as to why i don't know but we should be blaming the company not flynn as he wasn't responsible for good ideas going to waste.
@shinkai9kami162 OK, but then why is it ok to blame one guy instead of an ENTIRE company? People say stop shifting blame, but then place many thing's at Flynns feet, and outright blame him for the creative guidelines that all Licensed Ip fall under, may I ask your thought process?
@@SHORYUKIN-SF6 The writers have some control of the story. You think every single decision that was made in the story was because of Sega breathing down his neck? It doesn't work that way. Who asked him to have shadow be an idiot? They just wanted him to be a hot head not a complete moron. You think they couldn't have found a better way to write him out of the metal virus arc? Stop making excuses for these writers. If they can't work with what they're given that's on them Sam Rami didn't make any excuses for why spiderman 3 was bad. He called himself out for it. Sure, he was forced to have venom in the movie, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have written something better.
You guys put a lot of weight onto one man being responsible for all issues with the comic, issues that aren't even actually issues but just things you don't want to see, while at the same time doing a lot of assuming, you assume fiynn intentions, you assume that anyone who likes his work and disagrees with your opinions are supper fans of his and lack the ability to understand the problems you see, news flash we can understand your points but just because you think they make sense doesn't actually mean they do. A lot of your guy's points here fall apart when looked at with actually scrutiny and nuances, you structured your points in a way to make them seem like they make sense but they really don't, just because a story isn't being written the way you would like it doesn't make it bad, just because a character is morally conflicted doesn't mean that they are bad.
@@RaiginAnimatorFrankly, i'd rather hee not do that regardless. That way, people can see how many IDW Stans there are, and how far they're willing to go to defend Flynn, IDW, and the status quo.
There is so much wrong with this video, it's like you're holding a round peg and in front of you is a round hole but you for some reason think it's a square, it's not a square, the peg fits, you just for some reason think it doesn't.
honestly saying someone fall off cuz disliking them especially only for their works is insane. Like i would expect someone got into crime or some fucked up stuff that make their downfall, But nah its just someone disliking the person works. Gotta get that Exaggerated title working for algorithm i guess.
@@E-102GammaMKIII mean, there's taking issue, and there's outright misinterpreting the story itself for the sake of a narrative that, by all means, is unnecessary. Saying it's his "Downfall" implies there is no such thing as improvement which is ridiculous.
I hate to say this but Eggman is one of those villains that's past the point of redemption for all his clownish antics!
I don't know if it's about redeeming Eggman as much as it's about trying to breathe life into a character who officially peaked with Forces.
Eggman's schemes can't really get more interesting then him outright taking over the world. So Sage is I guess Sonic Team's attempt to take him in a less ambitious direction.
@@SuperHamachiBrother1 But he hasn’t taken over the world for good. So the story continues.
@SuperHamachiBrother1 Eggman was always supposed to be someone who believes by conquering the world he'll build a utopia and that he's more selfish and oblivious to what he's doing to the world than being darkness incarnate like in Western interpretations.
It's ironic. Flynn is now obsessed with dark stories (and has for years), but his preboot work was uplifting. It showed how important it is to try and move on from tragedy, and not let your trauma define you.
Flynns idea of dark is having his queer OCs cry to each other about how everything sucks while the actual sonic characters people care about sit around and act ooc
@@dc7981 Yeah.
Bro is reaching to the stars with this take
@@Ujulahipobaka121 What do you mean by that?
@@dc7981 Actually if you are talking about Tangle & Whisper, Tangle is Tyson Hesse's Character & Whisper is Evan Stanley's character
On the topic of everyone wanting Eggman dead and him being a mainstay villain, It's quite simple. Have him escape and have characters believe he is unstoppable, that's the vibe I always got for years, they just can't ever seem to catch him. He always escapes and everyone hates him for it. That's it, and it's fun. Fun as hell to see
This creates a cycle where neither of them can get the upper hand and they pretty much waste each other time. Can't say I'm a fan of this. It's fun but I prefer an actual ending to the story and conflict.
@@alexandrpeterberg390 The problem is that Sonic isn't a story, but a franchise incorporating multiple forms of media, primarily video games. This means that as long as SEGA wants Eggman around, there will never be a conclusion to his conflict with Sonic. Same goes for any character arcs for mainstay characters such as Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, etc.
@knuxuki1013 Eggman is still alive since Sonic is a toon series where characters casually survive explosions and falling from space. Sonic in game canon just isn't bothered to do more than smack around Eggman then quickly move onto somewhere else once Eggman is beaten.
It's a dumb opinion
It's like saying : let the Joker die and make a new villain
@@galten7361 Most Sonic ever does aside from beating Eggman is sabotaging his jetpack at the end of Lost World, causing him to fall back to Earth. Logically, this would kill Eggman, but since cartoon logic is in play, he survived.
As someone who likes all of Ian Flynn’s work despite its flaws, this was really eye opening to see. Especially to find out that what made his work and the comics themselves loose steam was that Ian was being driven further away from his own writing element and forced into situations he can’t properly plan and write for. It makes me feel bad for the guy that he had to go through that and having to tolerate both the creators and fans for as long as he has. Hope Ian Flynn gets his big break someday soon!
Seems like he might, since Evan Stanley been taking over more for idw, and Flynn getting brought on to write for the main games which take like 4 years to come outthere’s a good chance he’ll get some time to scale back maybe even wait for Sega to lift their damn mandates.
This is one of few videos I've seen that critics Flynn pretty fairly. They aren't disrespectful towards him and his accomplishments, and have fair points to problems that have been in most of his works.
I think Flynn is a good idea man, he does some real great pulls from the Sonic franchise that are very appreciated and he's always been clearly a fan first.
However, he often fails to conclude story arcs in IDW in a satisfying or meaningful matter. Metal Virus had a really neat Super Sonic and Super Silver fight with a powered up Zavok, but what happened afterwards was really messy.
Always felt something was off about Ian, and it didn’t help that his fans are so thin skinned and try validating him at every turn.
I am of the firm belief that Sonic still doesn’t have a definitive writer even to this day. The Neal Adams so to say who not only understands the characters and the lore on a deep level as to know how to realise them but actually elevate the series to new heights to aim for.
If it’s possible to make a fully-rounded Sonic from Pre-Reboot Archie, Fleetway, Pre-Colors Era and a little of Paramount, you have a perfect Sonic who can embody the cool hedgehog with an attitude but has layers to his personality like the fact he can feel grief or rage when pushed to a certain point and have character flaws that grounds him without coming off as a jock. He can be the most inspirational guy around on one end and be a cocky ass on the other. Have a dynamic range and still be consistent without coming off as an idiot (Sonic Prime), a self-righteous hypocrite (IDW) or a shallow caricature (The Meta Era).
Ian Flynn isn’t that guy. He’s more like the John Byrne of Sonic. Although his body of work is good, there are creative choices and things he does that doesn’t exactly sit right with a number of fans. I also say he’s bit of a James Roberts guy too as he’s got a number of fans who worships him and kisses the ground but trashing on everything else while there’s people who aren’t suckered into the hype.
@@rayvenkman2087 Highly accurate. Honestly I think Sonic is better off without a definitive writer. He should be interpreted in any way to help expand potential, rather than just narrow it to a single tone.
And spot on with the James Roberts comparison, a lot of the time people can't say anything ill about Ian without someone coming in to defend him.
@@Channeleven2345789 I think someone else made a comparison between James and Ian. I would say that if James Roberts is the Steven Moffat of Transformers right down to the smug egotistical energy levels with tripe that belongs in the bad fanfiction realm and being built off the work of their Robert Holmes/Simon Furman, then I’ll say Ian could be the RTD or Dave Filoni of Sonic where they’ve produced great stories worthy of praise but also produce the most daft creative decisions that’s ever graced the IP.
And like RTD, they love to backhand the Archie Era the way NuWho fans loves to dunk on 80’s Classic Who. One was a successful series that went through a troubling period before finding it’s feet but get unfairly cancelled by a POS with a face that makes you want to punch it instinctively while the other is coasting in a post-Weadon landscape right down to the annoying smugness the new work has going on. Also like RTD, more people are starting to see through the narrative and call for some new blood talent that’s not from the same clique as him.
Only difference between them is that Sega isn’t a dumpster fire like the BBC and their restrictions in place are stopping Ian from going full Current Day Disney Era RTD on Sonic which is a very horrifying thought considering this is the same IDW that allowed Sophie Campbell to be on TMNT for four years and allowing the awful Transformers: Lost Light and TF vs Visionaries to see print without any proper editorial supervision to make them people actually wants to read. I can dislike Sega for their stupid mandate because of the actions of one but I also get why it exists because without anything to restrain Ian, he could potentially do more damage than Ken ever could. Possibly.
I think a definitive Sonic writer would resolve the fandom dispute of what Sonic is supposed to be by giving them something that can meet them in the middle and be on the same page with. A great Sonic writer would be able to justice to all aspects of Sonic. A Sonic that’s more in line with what they know but one that can go to new and exciting territories rarely seen since 2006. A Shouen Jump style adventure with a little injection of Dwayne McDuffie in the writing and other international flavourings to make something that’s cool, awesome and rad but full of depth.
A Sonic Adventure that can give you the epic of Heisei Gamera, the excitement of Kung Fu Panda 1-3 and the quiet introspection of Avatar The Last Airbender. Hitting that sweetspot of Total Recall 1990’s badass action, exciting setpieces and a literary thoughtfulness that avoids coming off as overly pretentious.
If he’s supposed to be the cool counter to Mario, he’s gotta bring the cool with him and more. That’s just me though.
@@rayvenkman2087 I'm honestly not a fan of Archie, but that's a can of worms I don't feel like going into. I feel like Ian's stories are derivative at best, and grossly overblown by some particularly passionate fans, and it honestly numbs them for me in the longrun.
I'd like something in line with the Adventure era of Sonic, but not something uber serious.
If Shiro Maekawa never left Sonic Team, we wouldn't be having any of these problems. He wrote basically every Sonic story up until the 2010s when everything changed. I wouldn't accept anyone else as a "definitive writer."
I think The Whisper and Tangle Solo Series was probably Ian's best work: and alot of that probably is helped by Stanley helping him alot with it, it seems going off credits for the series: Plus it was something genuinely different for the time especially, It felt like an actual honest attempt to tell a somewhat dark and more personal story.
Go outside My man! Take a shower! 🚿🚿🚿🚿🚿🚿
@@Ujulahipobaka121 What? Just because I say something implies, that I don't have a standard of hygiene; Or that I don't spend literally most of my time now working outside to begin with: Do kindly go pound sand ass-hat.
Let me clarify: Ian Flynn DID NOT write the story of Sonic Frontiers. Morio Kishimoto and Jyunpei Ootsu did. All Ian did was write the dialogue. The dialogue is NOT the story. He just wrote what the characters would SAY. If you want to praise or critique the story, don't look at Flyn; look at Jyunpei and Morio. Morio also directed the game, so whatever Ian wrote, Morio, Jyunpei, AND Iizuka had to approve of it. Whatever idea Flynn had, THEY either agreed or disagreed with it.
Ian only contributed 5% to this game; he wasn't essential. It was the developers and ESPECIALLY Morio, who are the reason why this game is so amazing. Morio had the most control of this game, not Ian. The developers wanted to take Sonic in a new direction and tested this new formula. When they got it, THEN they wrote the story, because that's how it very often goes in Japanese game development. Gameplay first, then story.
The story you see here was made by Morio and Jyunpei. All Ian did was make the dialogue fit the serious tone. Why am I saying this? I am sick and tired of people claiming that he is the sole reason why Frontiers succeeded, while his writing is awful. You can't convince me that the Sonic he writes in the comic is the same one we see in Frontiers.
Also, Iizuke is an unsung hero and deserves WAY more credit. He begged SEGA to delay the release of this game because it wasn't finished yet. If they didn't listen to him, Frontiers would've failed, and Sonic would've no longer been SEGA's mascot, and porbably cancelled. So without Iizuka and Morio, there wouldn't have been any more Sonic games.
Yeah, but dialogue is like 80% of Frontiers' story. Most of the scenes are just characters talking to each other about what's going on. So I think you're underselling how much control he did have over the story.
Iirc Flynn said in an interview that the process was more fluid then just he gives them ideas and they say approve or don't. They had back and forths discussions about their plans and Sonic Team came up with ideas themselves while working with him. It was more of a collaboration then you're making it sound.
@@SuperHamachiBrother1 which proves that he himself didn't write the entire thing. You said that they had to approve his ideas, which means they had the final say.
@@Zavraanoh, yeah, I do agree that people who assume Flynn is the only reason they enjoyed the story are clearly bias towards Sonic Team. I just wanted to clarify that it was indeed a collaboration.
Wrong.
Kishimoto has said time and time again that he had to write the script based off Ian's script. As a result, it ended up a mess, and the JP fanbase prefers the English script.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 You can't convince me that the guy who wrote the Metal Virus and "I want everybody to be free" also wrote the story of Frontiers.
The IDW comics have left more of a bad impact on the franchise than a good one, while Frontiers litterally saved it. ( again, thanks to Iizuka )
If these comics get cancelled in the future, I wouldn't be surprised. SEGA is not even acknowledging IDW that much, because its losing money. Why? The stories are terrible.
Frontiers was amazing, not thanks to Ian.
After reading Preboot, I find the stories there much better than IDW and Reboot. IanWaffles, if he is there, what would you want to see in a Sonic story?
It’s a shame we lost that version of Ian. The fresh, youthful and unrestrained version who could easily make IDW Sonic the Skybound Transformers for the publisher in terms of making a book that gets people talking and shortlisting it for pickups.
Man, I'm not gonna lie, whenever I looked at a sonic comic I've always turned around and ran. I never thought these people would infiltrate the games. This is good, getting me caught up.
And as for Sonic character assassination in IDW, one can't go saying they love something or someone while simultaneously plunging a knife into that same thing.
They can if they misunderstand what the thing is about.
yep, agreed
I think Ian Walffles' idea on Whisper is the best route but to not loose the namesake can be if she gets embarrassed or feels unable to approach new people is that she tends to whisper her sentences until she is comfortable with that new person Or in stealth mode.
I'm sorry but I felt the Genesis wave, out side of being a means to retcon the characters lost due to the Pender's suit, was a copout and a lazy means of finishing the Mech-Sally arch. So much character growth and potential development was wasted with by not properly concluding the arch.
It would have been fantastic to see what lengths Sonic and the Freedom Fighters would have gone to get Sally back and how she would handle the trauma of being turned into a living weapon and forced to hurt those she loves. Such a waste.
Good thing there's Archie Sonic online
To be fair, what else could have been done? I don't know the corporate politics behind the creation of the Reboot between Sega and Archie, but I'm not so sure it be safe to say it was a cop out, who knows if there was any other alternatives or not but if it still frustrates you than your entitled to feel that way
Interestingly, sonics morality is very similar to that of Goku's during the Moro arc. Goku has a conversation with Merus that has a similar tune to Sonics convo with Surge where he is asked why he lets his enemies live and why doesn't kill them. Similar to sonic his reasoning is pretty selfish in that he keeps enemies around because he's confident if they get stronger and stay evil he will just get stronger then them and stop them, and after this has happened enough times they will hopefully turn good.
The manga tries to justify Goku's decision by showing how only through the help of people that Goku has spared and let change (the androids, Vegeta, Majin Buu, and Uub) does he beat Moro, but this ignores the fact that he lets someone like Frieza roam free where in instances like the end of the Broly movie we know that Frieza just casually destroys planets (killing millions if not billions) just for fun, so people do suffer from Goku's decisions. Thankfully the manga doesn't repeatedly ask this question to Goku, or even really try to justify it explicitly, but the criticism is still there.
For Sonic you can point to something like how him not having Metal Sonic decommissioned before the metal virus outbreak is what eventually lead to them saving the day because he was there to help take down Zavok in the end, but the issues with keeping around someone like Eggman or Zavok still exists.
In my opinion, Ian Flynn is great at fixing terrible stories, but he is awful at making his own stories.
I mean some of his stuff with sonic archie like the prison break and unleashed adaptation were some of the best stories in my opinion. I still think its higher ups reatricting Ian story telling but scences involving Sage in frontiers felt too try hardie or just came out of no where for me. I liked the references in frontiers but some of it is just what, why mention that now. Like not many people know Amy plays with terrocards, and that was never showcased within the game. You can't just state that without reason. You confuse both new and old fans
I mean... it's okay to be wrong sometimes
I really like Ian flynn is a great writer better than panders.
@@rosariostefenelli4155Penders is an objectively better writer than Flynn.
Nah Ian cooks well when he isn’t under the Sega mandates.
To me, Ian Flynn is to Sonic what Dave Filoni is to Star Wars, and that's not a good thing.
You are not the only person who believes that
Oh my Goodness, i thought i was the only one thought of that too.
They even look alike when they wear their hats.
Id say dave is kinda worse, but i havent actually seen his work firsthand.
@@reserven5795 They're very similar. Now that Ian writes for the games, things are only gonna get worse.
@@reserven5795 Dave is literally worse from my experience
I think Crazy Elf said something like this before, but I hate this notion that Eggman is supposed to be this embodiment of evil who wants to kill everyone and everything. I thought he was supposed to be a goofy ‘80s cartoon villain.
@TubeLoobMouse He's supposed to represent Man and also tycoons, pollution, war/militarism science being misused. Eggman is oblivious to what he's doing to the world and believes his actions will build utopia. His Western characterizations as a rule make him more of a Dark Lord and/or robot Hitler who's pollutive for the sake of it and actively sees himself as a force of darkness in the world.
I'm not as much of a dedicated fan when it comes to Sonic comics (both Archie and IDW), but I do spend some time watching videos and essays related to them. and while I do hear some issue with the latter by some folks recently, and I have some gripes with IDW too. this video really strike the nail on the internal problem from the comic.
While I like the characters of IDW, I would lie to myself that I wish that there's more to them than just leaving them without developing any further. it's all ideas (good ideas actually) but with no form of execution or how any of the characters to grow from. especially the comic feature characters despite being more lenient from the SEGA regulations that he keep bringing up. But I guess that you can only blame SEGA far too many times until it becomes more evident that you're also part of the problem with the writing Ian Flynn.
I don't know too much about your thoughts on Scrapnik Island, Lavi. to me it's probably the most completed story arc outside of the anniversary classic Sonic comics. it's a generally great comic in it's premise, artwork, and characters. But the fact that the only time Sonic actually connected with the villain with his morals and ended on a good note is written by Daniel Barnes who has little to no input by Ian speak volumes.
Dang, nice breakdown. Awesome work and yeah, Ian needs a break. Ironically, I came in when Flynn started with the Darkest Storm arc in the Archie run so I'm familiar with his writing style.
Quality podcast right here. I couldn't keep reading IDW and you succinctly summarized the reasons why. This comic is like being in limbo. I didn't read the latest chapters so maybe Evan can make it better?? Also am I the only one who hates how tacked-on the Zeti are? They are still one-note bad guys from Lost World, but this time they KILL people FOR REAL, so DARK and MATURE! These guys are a load of bull.
Yeah, Flynn completely missed the point. The Zeti were never meant to be taken that seriously as villains. Even before Lost World was released, it was stated they were created to bring a sense of humor and danger to the story. The only one meant to be taken remotely seriously is Zavok, the rest are just his wacky minions.
Take a shower, both of You
@@Rogerbuzmen uh oh here comes the stinky
Yeah, it's just kind of baffling, because the Zeti would be PERFECT for lower stakes, one off stories with a tone similar to the Classic Sonic stories. Heck, at their full potential I believe that they're capable of being incredibly versatile villains than can fit most roles. But Ian keeps them into a very specific niche that they don't fill all that well.
@@felixdaniels37 I wouldn't mind then getting actual development at all, Archie did it with lots of obscure one-offs and it was alright. Maybe it's the character mandates again, who knows.
IDW, and specifically the Metal Virus arc really got me into the comics, but then I read Flynn Era PreBoot, and it makes me wonder what made Ian fall off so hard. PreBoot was amazing, and makes IDW look like a joke.
2:31:26 "None of you really care about us. You just want us. You want to see how you can change us. What you can turn us into, to prove that you're right." Damn that's a hell of a solid line! It's not just taking a swing at how Sonic been acting. It's also taking a swing at IAN'S interpretation on how "Sonic SHOULD be acting." That is a wild ending to have.
In defence of Sonic, his methods have worked with certain enemies and rivals before and this is the one time it didn't. Surge didn't help her case by going on wanton destruction either, which makes this pretty hypocritical on Ian's part.
@@xdomemanExcept it falls apart when the rivals he fights were never evil to start with and certain enemies he fights was never evil as well.
@@Skeleton20133 But they were still against him in some way or another, like Blaze who believed she didn't need any one backing her up, and Silver who honestly thought he was saving his future, and Sonic was left in the dark as to why the latter wanted him dead, and Knuckles who was just duped. Like I said, his methods still worked, and Surge and Kit are very much evil, still my point still stands.
@@xdomeman Except you're still wrong. It was Amy and Cream who convinced Blaze that she can't do things on her own and Knuckles helped Sonic after he was tricked by Eggman and realized that Sonic was never the enemy.
@@Skeleton20133 Sonic also had a hand in convincing Blaze just so you know. Not to mention Sonic 3 was very early in terms of storytelling so whether Sonic was showboating or not in that game we can't say for sure.
I think we need a team that actually understands Sonic. That can make great stories that can actually develop characters.
They need to stop trying to canonize everything to make sense, because eventually it won't make any sense.
When will we get an update and upgrade in Character models, animations, gameplay better writing. 😢
never sega is happy doing the bare minimum while normies and sonics most hardcore meat-, i mean fans buy and do anything for sonic. i see more realistic sega droping sonic as their mascot for either yakuza or some of atlus ips.
@@mechakirby9576 Yeah
People like you are the real problem.
@@mechakirby9576 you are thinking unrealistically you know they are never ever gonna drop sonic as their mascot right?
You don't even have to like Archie to see the difference in scope between it and IDW. Archie is insane, but at least it was running with its own madness sincerely. IDW is content to just wallow in mediocrity and do the bare minimum. This extends to Flynn himself, ofc.
Idk what Flynn needs to get his spark back. But I do know IDW needs new writers. Cuz Stanley really has nothing interesting to add to this series that Flynn didn't start already. And he's just on autopilot now.
Maybe IDW needs it's own reboot or something. Idk but something about this comic needs to change drastically if it wants to be good.
Ian and the others writers have said time and time again that the comics have extreme guidelines set in place by Sega to keep them canon to the games, thus nobody can do anything dramatic compared to their Archie days.
That's one of the reasons I love preboot. It had such a huge scope with so many characters and plotlines that the writers (Karl Bollers doesn't get enough credit) and artists poured their hearts into.
@@bowserbreaker2515 Seriously. It's like people think the only people who wrote for Archie were Penders and Flynn.
@@mr.unsmiley8656 There was also Mike Gallagher, Angelo Desecare and even Tracy Yardley.
@@bowserbreaker2515 Don't forget Frank Strom & Mike Kanterovich
reminder that people on twitter want him unironically dead for his writing, i think he's flawed (like any writer ever) but the fact that happens to him is disgusting
Nobody on the LaviCast had ever condoned that and the last I checked, their friend Max Wasson wants nothing to do with Randomfox, Georgiy, AquillisArtz & Darklightheart for wishing death on Ian Flynn
The people who say that can be counted on one hand. Most of his critics don't go that far.
@@Aidel1011 i never said they condoned that tbf, im just making it known as there's such a thing as hate that can go too far
@@E-102GammaMKII i mean fair but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be known since it's a really awful act for someone to do just because they don't like his way of writing
@@kaobunn tbh I agree some toxic fans just like to send him death threats or slandering him to make him look bad...I'm not saying his writing since let go metal sonic and the way shadow written in IDW is a thing...but he genuinely doesn't deserve that much hate Only because doesn't suit other fans' expectations...this man wrote for sonic the hedgehog atleast 16 years straight so he's pretty much a good sonic writer if not perfect...there are some flaws with his writing in IDW but overall he did a good job with the writing and with the characters but the fact this guy's gets way too much to the point wanting him gone and dead is just really immature these mfs need to get a life seriously stop listening to these mfs seriously stop listening to these toxic fans because some of them are just want to slander Ian flynn and say he's straight up awful sure his writing isn't perfect but it's not that bad! Dare I say good even..I'm just tired of people keep saying ((Ian Flynn wants to destroy the sonic franchise he's a awful sonic writer etc..)) seriously this fandom is toxic as hell!
It's sad seeing what happened to Flynn. Because of him, preboot Archie is my favorite story ever, no exaggeration. He took a comic I genuinely did like for all its flaws, and made a goofy, over-the-top, emotional masterpiece with heart and edge and sincerity. To me, reboot and especially IDW feel like a personal insult (IDW, only parts of reboot). Reboot had some really good stuff, but mostly not. What really pains me is that Flynn has said he thinks he's gotten the best at writing Sonic over the years, which I laughed at. Preboot mattered, and nothing can convince me otherwise, no matter what Flynn tries to do.
It's not his fault that the book needed to be rebooted.
@@Diamonddeath And yet, he was actually pushing for a reboot. He felt like the characters needed to be redesigned.
@@E-102GammaMKIIDo you have a source for that? I know he thought a redesign would help their case for being kept after the reboot, but I haven’t heard anything about him pushing for a reboot.
@@E-102GammaMKII There's a difference between Ian wanting the character designs to be updated and wanting a reboot.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 Funny that Ian said that the reboot was the "fast-forward button" in regards to his ultimate goal. Not to mention, he originally planned to kill Antoine. He already made Sally's roboticization irreversible when he weaponized her. Add on to the fact that he had her killed TWICE, once in his fancomic and the other time in Archie 225, and it seems very suspect.
Also, I don't respect the guy who tried to turn Sally and Nicole into lesbians.
Curious if you guys have an opinion on the Sonic Forces Overclocked story and it’s portrayal of Sonic?
Think it hits that good middle ground of cocky but still heroic.
Even though the execution was sorta weird, the character arc they gave him with the avatar was brief but neat, tied together well with the conflict against the villains.
If you haven’t, check it out, it’s a fun time with Forces, crazy feat I know lol.
As soon as you said heroic its bad
52:27 Feel free to correct me because I've barely read much Archie as a whole (I have seen a comic dub of that Sonic the Fighters arc though.) But that can still work. Remember Chip has been inside the earth ever since it formed so I can see him doing basic stuff as really important memories. Again i'm probably wrong so feel free to correct me.
The problem isn't that Chip is treasuring "basic" memories. It's the fact that Ian literally had to make all of that up to begin with. Sonic Unleashed's story hinged on being able to see Sonic and Chip's misadventures firsthand. That was part of the reason we even got the "Night of the Werehog" short. It's to show both Chip and the audience that there is good to be found all around the world, and all of it is worth fighting for.
But Flynn was so preoccupied with juggling the Freedom Fighters on top of the game cast that Chip was effectively an afterthought in his own arc. So at the last second Ian fabricates these memories that never actually happened so he can claim Chip had character development. It all feels unearned.
Any sort of thematic purpose in the Unleashed arc was stripped away entirely.
I know some people who know the true Sonic (The JP Sonic) and they give Ian Flynn a lot of shit for getting the Sonic characters wrong. One of them said that IDW Sonic is awful because of its characterization in it. The other is just giving a lot of shit to Ian Flynn for getting those characters wrong.
Now I have a lot of respect for Ian Flynn for the masterpiece that is Pre-Reboot Archie Sonic but I will admit that I think he should step down at this point as the quality of his writing has deteriorated and he is doing more harm than good.
Now if you know the REAL Sonic, you should know that the real reason why Sonic keeps Eggman around is because he is having fun wrecking his stuff and making him angry.
Also, Eggman is not only a narcissist, but he is also a killer. But of course, since Sonic is a kid's franchise, you don't get to see Eggman kill people.
He's also fallen into a really annoying trend that has been plaguing nerd culture as of late: the deconstruction of heroes. Lost World already did that, and it was quick, and it didn't linger for very long, but the comics just dragged Sonic's flaws for multiple issues and it made me quit the IDW comics because of it. I'm tired of seeing my childhood icons getting torn apart by bitter people.
@@xdomeman I also heard of another annoying trend where a lot of villains with tragic backstories, the villains with redemption arcs, and stuff like that.
I mean it's nice to have nuanced villains but at the same time, it's also nice to have pure evil completely unredeemable villains. A villain that is practically an embodiment of evil.
Are trends ever a good thing?
@@alexandrpeterberg390 sometimes they are, sometimes not
@@alexandrpeterberg390 it's especially annoying in shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and games like Spider-Man: Miles Morales.
It's like: "My dad left me and my mom and then my mom was blown up by wyt criminals, and that's why I'm a terrorist who causes random destruction."
@alexandrpeterberg390 Eggman is fine with killing but there's no real evidence he's reliably murderous towards anyone who isn't an enemy and wouldn't achieve his goals without killing if he could (if only from having to avoid fighting). He's callous.
I think this just wouldn't be a problem if it were more like the games in the first place. Eggman in the games is depicted as a bad guy sure, but he's not outright, explicitly shown to be like, evil incarnate. He's just an egotistical jerk placing his mark everywhere, like a vain politician. Yes, realistically that kind of person would likely be a dictator and responsible for killing a lot of people... buuuuut this isn't the real world. it's a funny talking cartoon animal one, and I think this whole aspect of his character in the comic is an outdated carryover from the SatAM variation which, itself, was just a black-and-white "cute critters protect the environment" narrative.
At worst his schemes get out of hand when he summons some of godlike entity that threatens a city, the planet, existence. I know there's edge cases where he sets up a bomb in station square or threatens to fire the ARK cannon on earth, but my point is the games never let him cross that line explicitly, he's always stopped or undercut by something else. This allows the character to still be endearing. I don't really think about Sonic needing to do more than take Eggman down a peg in the games, and by extension the games never dwell further on it. And rightly so, since there's no way they could adequately address that without killing a character, metaphorically or literally. It'd be stupid to even bring up.
Oh funny seeing you here haha~
Tbh, although I don't really read much about this guy's comics (and I... really DON'T care, i consider him just another writer anyway), one thing that did annoy me was that he basically implies that sonic first met eggman DURING sonic 1, even tho it's basically obvious that it is not their first time meeting (like how eggman is always prepared to attack sonic and how the December 2020 sonic channel page of Dr eggman is still saying that they met before sonic 1, not during it.), heck not even S1's opening cutscene in the game implies it's their first time meeting, unlike sonic 2's cutscene where it is obvious that tails first met sonic there.
This isn't even the first time he wrote it like this, in the sonic genesis comics (aka the time eggman just reset the universe the first time), which adapts sonic 1 and 2, eggman and sonic first met there. Ian Flynn just... really has a habit of just making eggman and sonic first meet in the 1st game instead of before. Lol
Honestly, I was never a fan of Flynn's writing. While it may be petty, I can't help but feel somewhat vindicated by the current state of affairs.
At least Stanley seems to be starting to pick up steam.
I don't think this should be the downfall of ian...he just needs to take the criticism and change up his writing a bit and with his skills I'm sure he can do something that benefits himself, company and dans
Man Ian Flynn sure is a writer
Genuine question, how come one of you keeps calling Surge “Scourge”?
because is has been a open secret that surge is ians and idw wanna be scourge as a fuck you to ken penders and the tendensy of these two bump heads after the lawsuit.
sadly surge just fall off after the that issue were she looks like has died. most people who love surge like her because of her "punk" aesthetic/attitude or just to insult penders because "ian good penders bad" mentallity
@@mechakirby9576 Yep, it is literally because of the "Pender Man bad" shit why they prefer Surge over Scourge
Rise and Fall of Ian Flynn - IanWaffles Feat LaviCast
He's a writer for the sonic franchise he's gonna from rise to fall in the matter of seconds to the fans
Archie Sonic is peak
IDW Sonic is mid
I actually thought the Metal Virus arc was the best thing hes ever written.
Kinda sad tbh since its so mid
Just play TellTale's Walking Dead.
You are welcome.
@@sonicwithglasses131 bruh...
2:27:48 i think fleetway sonic the comic sonic isn't disliked anymore
Nope, it still is, especially by Ian Flynn, Game Purists, certain Archie fanboys, certain Sonamy stans, etc
@@Aidel1011 most fans have never even read fleetway anyway. Fleetway super sonic is legit the only thing people know from that whole comic to where he’s completely eclipsed the comic in popularity so barely anyone has actually the story to understand him
@@dc7981 Hating things they never read is the norm in the Sonic Community
Gassing up Prime for a comparison to put Ian down is uncalled for.
Well, some IDW Fans did a similar thing by putting Sonic Prime down just to gas up IDW
Or IDW fans gassing up IDW Sonic while putting down Archie Sonic. Even the latter is the reason their favourite got a gig and Pre-Reboot containing the objectively best version of Ian Flynn the same way we say 1996-1997 Pre-Neck Injury Stone Cold Steve Austin is objectively the best version of the character when he was throwing down with Bret Hart and Brian Pilman.
Ian Flynn has always been the same old writer since the 90s though
Watching this again and again and I keep thinking the same thing.
Ian Flynn is basically the Don Bluth of Sonic.
When given direction and material to work with, he does great. When he's left alone to do his own thing however, it's a mess. But people like it anyways xD
I don't think thats a fair comparison to Don Bluth in particular. For all of his faults, Don Bluth was genuinely a storyteller. He always wanted to tell themes with meani g to them, he never relied on fanservice and clout to get his way like Ian does.
Ian Flynn is pretty bad at fixing plot holes too when it comes to game writing
i enjoyed this deep dive from beginning to end. it's easily one of my favorite videos from this channel now, really highlighting how much archie sonic's morality has bled into idw as well as the decline in sincerity when it comes to crafting amazing plot threads using previously established story elements.
i've had nothing but problems with ian's writing and all of his recent contributions to sonic, including the countless amounts of fans that defend his inaccurate portrayal of the character himself. i get the impression that ian either doesn't care to reflect on criticism, or that he's ran out of tricks to rely on like fan service and references that hide his lack of understanding for the game versions of the characters.
i had a realization towards the end that i may have been too harsh on evan in my own criticisms of idw, not realizing that she's been picking up after the mess ian left her with in issue 50. she's not by any means perfect, but i never really considered what all of this would look like in her position. she's shown her ability to improve both as an artist and a writer in how she's practiced to draw the characters to be more on-model and how she's been handling silver and shadow as of late, and that's very praise worthy.
It seems Ian is unable to reflect on any criticisms because his fans validate everything he does, and try to stifle any meaningful criticism thrown his way.
@@Channeleven2345789 Except Ian does accept criticism, he literally talks about it on his podcasts all the time.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 as far as incorporation of criticisms I need to see. Doesn’t change the fact that a lot of Ian Flynn fans need to be kept on a short leash.
@@willfanofmanyii3751 even in his most recent work, the fang mini series, he felt the need to "connect" plot elements once again (in the form of the warp topaz and being a prequel to superstars) despite the track record of how many times that's caused problems so i really don't agree with that. there's also final horizons and its generally awful writing through superfluous lore dumps, making it feel as if he's talking through the characters which has been a long running issue with his writing in idw. i can't forget dream team either, where sonic now apparently gives his friends nicknames.
@@___8241I mean, the nickname thing isn't that far fetched. Tho it's something that came mainly from the movies version of Sonic, I think Sonic giving nicknames to people makes sense given how he named Chip, Eggman, and kept calling Tails by that nickname instead of his actual name. Or even how he keeps calling knuckles "Knucklehead"
It wouldn't be the first time the games incorporate elements from other continuity, I don't see that as a very big deal.
Shadow's inhibitor rings weren't a thing in the games until 06, Sonic liking chilly dogs wasn't a thing either until Unleashed/Black Knight.
I think Sonic having a tendency to give nicknames adds some charm to his character.
The issue I have with it is how it's brought up in Dream Team.
I don’t believe any writer is flawless, but I do think people are really desperate to pin blame on any scapegoat.
2:28:19 wait really? I like this comic a lot but I don’t think I’ve ever gone that far
I surely don’t think it’s perfect I like it because I just thought it was a fun thing to read and pickup between games
Imo the most annoying sonic is BOOM.
Only one thing left for Eggman: time for him to officially perish in the entirety of the franchise! He's been the ecoterrorist to Sonic's planet countless times over! When will enough be enough for the sonic franchise itself, Sega themselves and their fans?
Then the Sonic franchise itself ends and that’s that. There is no reason for the franchise to last as long as it has with the amount of failures it has without Eggman keeping the threat afloat.
@@whaleping And that's exactly what I'm going to do in my CGI remake of Sonic X in the finale episode and Sonamy have to be the ones to take Eggman's life - from then onwards, it will just be emotional moral challenges. Please don't get mad at me!😰
@@ameliawalker1046 lol, go for it. It’d be interesting to see.
@@ameliawalker1046 Killing Eggman is really out of character for Sonic. If Sonic X shows anything it's that Sonic would go out of his way to save Eggman if he's in danger. Eggman is his main source of entertainment, and he considers him a rival not an enemy.
Same for Eggman who saved Sonic multiple times and in the last episode of Sonic X season 2 where Sonic stayed on Earth with Chris he wanted to save Tails from his own missile because without Sonic if Tails also died he would have no one to fight.
@@whaleping The franchise can keep going even when Eggman is gone. Sonic will still find new adventures.
Honestly when I saw this video in my recommendations, I thought it was gonna be way worse
Ok i thought this video was about him how he actually fell off but no it's just some dudes talking about why they don't like ian Flynn's writing...wow what a Click bait! This whole title and thumbnail is a click bait just because you don't like his writing which...that's fine and all everyone are entitled to their own opinions but that doesn't mean he actually fell off like what exactly do you mean by fell off did he do something truly terrible and bad to become someone like butch Hartman and their reputation actually go to shit or something? but no it's just some dude complaining about his writing and because they didn't liked his writing say he fell off :/
This whole video is a click bait just to get more views and likes that's the way i see it!
Hypocrites.
Had to stop watching because your recap of the Archie comics is wrong. For starters, the E.V.E. story takes place way before the Egg Grapes and Evil Sonic stuff. Second, that page you were showing of Evil Sonic, Bunnie, the aliens, etc., is not even from a comic; it's just a collage of panels from various issues, some of which don't even occur near each other. Third, no, Evil Sonic does not "bang" Bunnie. In fact, she gets weirded out when he tries to kiss her. If you're going to criticize something, at least get your info straight.
In my opinion get a life
Impossible Challenge
Ian flynn is pretty over hated in my opinion.
I am concerned about sonic x shadow generations I do not trust sega with their track record with remakes.
Correction: you are worried about how Ian Flynn is going to write shadow since...he has full control of writing shadow's story in that game not the remaster itself because the remaster of generation was actually fine in the summer game fest.
To this day, I don’t understand why you guys keep saying Starline serves no purpose.
His entire story proves to the reader why Eggman is not to be fucked with, it also amplifies the idea that Sonic and Co are uniquely equipped to deal with him because they’re just that good. Not just anyone can take on Doctor Eggman and win the guys an actual genius and a villain that’s what he did for the story.
In terms of Starlines character arc it’s actually really good.
It’s clearly not intentional but he feels like an evil version of Amy or Tails almost.
Becomes obsessed with his idol, realizes they may not be all that, tries to be better but realizes that the person they looked up to was just as great as they thought to begin with. The fact that Starline thought he could even compete with Eggman just to get killed again, and he did leave an impact,
He made Surge and Kit, and everything they do since his death is a direct result of Starlines actions in creating them, like idk what more you want
Eggman's incompetence during the Metal Virus Arc is the whole reason Starline did all he did. Bear in mind that the Deadly Six took control of Metal Sonic when Eggman sent him after them. Starline took into account that the Deadly Six turned on Eggman once the Cacophonic Conch was removed from the equation, and he knew that Zavok would undoubtedly betray him, too. He had a plan to have the Zeti control the Zombots because Eggman had no solid plan, which is something Ian himself said that Eggman never did, which contradicts the games. Starline's plan failed because he got too out of breath from using the Conch on them.
Eggman supposedly studied the Zeti and learned about their ability to control magnetic fields, and by extension, machines. Sending a Badnik after an oni that can control said Badnik is a very bad idea. He only barely escaped their wrath.
If Eggman is not to be messed with, how come Zavok is one of the only characters in this comic that makes the doctor panic? "Stop shooting my stuff with my stuff! Only I get to do that!" Doesn't sound so menacing, does he?
And it's ironic that you say that Starline is like an evil version of Tails, because Ian Flynn sees Tails as Sonic's sidekick and nothing more.
@@E-102GammaMKII because Zavok is a deadly threat? What kind of question is that?
You don’t see him quaking in his boots with Mimic, Rough, or Tumble, and I’m sure Clutch isn’t going to scare him.
Zavok can literally take over his army if Eggman isn’t careful of course the idea of going against him intimidates him, like what?
@@E-102GammaMKII I don’t know what this second quote it, that’s basically what happened to Starline. He rose above Eggman, Eggman brought him back down
@@JakeTylenol Rough and Tumble are just a pair of thugs who are basically the anime Team Rocket of Sonic. Mimic is only dangerous due to misdirection. And Clutch is working in the shadows to try and take over everything.
5:35 Where/when was that confirmed to be human flesh?
The scene is that robo robotnik is dressed like the og robotnik. Which includes looking like him. He is then sent through acid that melts his fake skin off. So even if it’s not REAL flesh, the image is meant to depict flesh melting off his face.
@@KirbySonicTeam Yes, I know, but you made it sound like it was indeed flesh.
Gotcha gotcha.
Tbh I don't think he's fallen off it's just sega's restrictions with the character, sense they're canon to the games it's kinda hard to do anything really meaningful when you're stepping on the actual canons feet
He can't do anything with the characters because they're Sega characters, he couldn't write shadow like he wanted too, and he's expressed that in one of his pod casts, I know he could've done something but still that doesn't mean he's officially fell off
@keiththxcup3014 You're right, there's always room for improvement, acting like that's not possible because of his "Downfall" is preposterous
@@keiththxcup3014 Translation: It's never his fault.
it's okay to dislike ian's work, but the jabs made towards his fans in this video were needlessly petty. people are allowed to enjoy things.
No they don't if the fanbase have shit standards in writing.
HIs "fans" are a cult.
@@Skeleton20133 opinions are subjective. i think much of archie sonic is actually terrible before ian, but i'm not going to insult the fans of it.
@@Skeleton20133 oh wow...that really makes you a hypocrite when you say it like that
@@FloofPuppyyou could make that arguement for literally anyone or anything, it doesn't stand.
Only reason I don't entirely fw Archie is because of how poorly they treated Blaze.
Yea, that’s the only thing I didn’t like about the comic.
Blaze was treated well; she was just hardly in it. She was hardly any different than in Rush.
@@bowserbreaker2515 good point
@@eliasmullen1088 I do wish we got to see Archie Silver and Blaze interact, but I don't know why that would even happen in this continuity.
@@bowserbreaker2515 it would be interesting
I can't believe we live in a world where people get mad because a hero states what it means to be a hero, the job is to save everyone, and that includes the villains, mostly from themselves. His philosophy isn't anything new, yes there are circumstances where death is the only option but thats just it, it has to be the only option, if you can save the world without killing your villain then you go for that.
But guilt-tripping Shadow isn't what Sonic would do. Sonic was comparing Shadow to Eggman.
"You tried to destroy the entire planet. Should I take you out along with Eggman? After all, if *he* can't be forgiven, can you?"
The smirk that Sonic made at the end of that panel doesn't help things either. Sonic used Shadow's past against him to win the argument.
The problem with your argument is that the villains in these comics are unrepentant, especially Eggman and the Deadly Six. They have NO desire to change for the better, and they made it clear that they enjoy the evil things that they do.
@@E-102GammaMKII 1. Sonic can be a jerk and a bit snarky, that's just part of his character. And it is a fair comparison, if sonic treated shadow like how shadow wanted to treat Eggman then he wouldn't be around today.
2. Just because someone doesn't want to change that doesn't mean they can't, anyone has potential to be different than they are now, Eggman showed this when he was Mr tinker, that was still him, he is capable of doing things he like and not hurting people, it's just going to take someone he actually cares about pushing him to change, that will most likely never happen because this is a franchise that is meant to go on forever and he is the main villain, but the potential to change is what really matters most.
3. Even if these villains are irredeemable our heros shouldn't take them out unless that is absolutely necessary, if they can avoid that by either delaying it or putting them behind bars then they should. Should Spider-Man kill shocker because he's a career criminal who has almost never shown signs of wanting to change? No because shocker is stop able just like the rest of his villains.
@@TiredMoonRabbit Yes, Sonic is a bit of a jerk, but never to this degree towards friends and allies. What he did in IDW Issue 6 is the polar opposite of what he did in _Sonic Battle;_ When Shadow says that he and Emerl are just weapons that don't have hearts, Sonic brought up the good that Shadow did.
"I seem to recall that you saved the world."
Also, Tinker is not Eggman. They are different people. Tinker is the result of brain damage. Note that when Eggman tried to pull the "I've turned over a new leaf" move, Sonic didn't fall for it. Because he knows the doctor. I'm not saying that Shadow was right to try to take out Tinker. Nor am I saying that Sonic should never be merciful and kill all his enemies. What I am saying is that the issue of "Why doesn't Sonic get rid of Eggman for good" shouldn't have been brought up in the first place.
Sonic isn’t a Marvel/DC superhero, that’s not really his M.O.
@@RealBroccoliHour I'm aware, I wouldn't really call sonic a true hero at all, he just so happens to been on the side of "good" and doesn't like to immediately killing people. Think Finn from adventure time, he like fighting things and will kill anything he is told is evil, but once he realizes they aren't or that it's more complicated he stops, at least at the start of the show, sonic is similar but little bit different because he doesn't seem to really care if someone is evil or not.
i 100# believe someone in Sega HQ is sabotaging the sonic ip ian flynn gave ideas and wanted to fix the story as much as any good writer would but the higher ups continue to refuse good ideas or storylines or characterization as to why i don't know but we should be blaming the company not flynn as he wasn't responsible for good ideas going to waste.
Stop shifting blame.
@shinkai9kami162 OK, but then why is it ok to blame one guy instead of an ENTIRE company? People say stop shifting blame, but then place many thing's at Flynns feet, and outright blame him for the creative guidelines that all Licensed Ip fall under, may I ask your thought process?
@@SHORYUKIN-SF6 The writers have some control of the story. You think every single decision that was made in the story was because of Sega breathing down his neck? It doesn't work that way. Who asked him to have shadow be an idiot? They just wanted him to be a hot head not a complete moron. You think they couldn't have found a better way to write him out of the metal virus arc? Stop making excuses for these writers. If they can't work with what they're given that's on them
Sam Rami didn't make any excuses for why spiderman 3 was bad. He called himself out for it. Sure, he was forced to have venom in the movie, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have written something better.
This aged like milk. Hop off blud.
@@kevinkong64 because of the dark beginnings shorts? Bruh...
If the leaks are anything to go by, it's actually aged fantastically. Because oh BOY he outright butchered the Generations script.
You guys put a lot of weight onto one man being responsible for all issues with the comic, issues that aren't even actually issues but just things you don't want to see, while at the same time doing a lot of assuming, you assume fiynn intentions, you assume that anyone who likes his work and disagrees with your opinions are supper fans of his and lack the ability to understand the problems you see, news flash we can understand your points but just because you think they make sense doesn't actually mean they do.
A lot of your guy's points here fall apart when looked at with actually scrutiny and nuances, you structured your points in a way to make them seem like they make sense but they really don't, just because a story isn't being written the way you would like it doesn't make it bad, just because a character is morally conflicted doesn't mean that they are bad.
Valid points you make here..because I noticed that too.
Also, don’t delete comments 😡
Wait comments are being deleted?
@@RaiginAnimator probably. there's way too much groupthink in the comments right now
@@GuiltlessGear that’s all comment sections
Go to a I like IDW video and You’ll see IDW fans go to the opposite you get the opposite
@@RaiginAnimatorFrankly, i'd rather hee not do that regardless. That way, people can see how many IDW Stans there are, and how far they're willing to go to defend Flynn, IDW, and the status quo.
@@Green-Raccoon777or you know, just to showcase that people have different opinions.
Idk i like Ian i think he good
Don't worry it's ok to like his writing and work it's all subjective and this video here is based on opinions and subjectivity.
2:45:19 fin.
At least he’s better than Pontaff.
Pontaff didn't actually write any stories
There is so much wrong with this video, it's like you're holding a round peg and in front of you is a round hole but you for some reason think it's a square, it's not a square, the peg fits, you just for some reason think it doesn't.
Ian didn't fall off. Hes doing great. Then again you hate idw sooo
God forbid people take issue with the man's writing.
cope
honestly saying someone fall off cuz disliking them especially only for their works is insane. Like i would expect someone got into crime or some fucked up stuff that make their downfall, But nah its just someone disliking the person works. Gotta get that Exaggerated title working for algorithm i guess.
@@mio3199 yeah the video is just overexaggerating some stuff..
@@E-102GammaMKIII mean, there's taking issue, and there's outright misinterpreting the story itself for the sake of a narrative that, by all means, is unnecessary. Saying it's his "Downfall" implies there is no such thing as improvement which is ridiculous.
Mr rouge x tails is gonna talk shit about Ian and idw again 😒
Stop
Ohhhhhh that explains alot.
Bullshit take + L + Ratio
ken pender still worst sonic writer ever
daniel barens is way better sonic writer
Honestly I kinda agree with that one