Mormon Stories
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- In response to a recent article published in the Deseret News titled “Defending the Faith: The supposed scandal of multiple First Vision accounts” by past Mormon Stories guest Dan Peterson, we assemble an all-star panel to conduct a deep dive into: 1) The multiple and conflicting accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision, and 2) How the Mormon church and apologists mislead church members about the issue. Our panelists include Sandra Tanner, Mark Crego, Warren Ludlow, and Johnny Stephenson.
www.deseretnew...
Some day I hope to meet this lovely woman. Our relatives probably knew each other in Brigham's day. Stay well Sandra you are on my bucket list.
J.Lee. I hope to meet Sandra too...and incredibly I think of meeting her as being on my Bucket list (things to do before I get to 50.) However, I think I will have to hurry! Not because she is going to die, but because I imagine she would be close to retiring from her bookstore, and would then be much less available to her fans than before.
I had the missionaries over to my house to discuss this very topic and they were absolutely clueless. I'm glad I'm able to get some clarification from these videos. Thank you.
Love Sandra Tanner. I’m sad that the LDS church makes members believe that she is dangerous. They feel threatened by this knowledgeable woman and those like her that know the real truth about the LDS church
She is wonderful.
No enough Sandra. Had to keep skipping thru to hear her speak. (I do love the 4 part interview you did with her though!)
More Sandra Tanner, please!
I know im randomly asking but does someone know a way to get back into an instagram account??
I was stupid lost the account password. I love any tricks you can give me.
@@bodennathaniel1647 Sounds like a scammer!
@Boden Nathaniel instablaster =)
@Jakob Braylen I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site thru google and I'm waiting for the hacking stuff now.
Takes a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Jakob Braylen it worked and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thanks so much, you saved my account !
I too love Sandra Tanner. Years ago she and I exchanged emails on the Mormon belief of transgender people and she really impressed me.
I am a recovering saint. My question is simple. First, I am not a scholar. It’s always been boring to me to read the Old Testament. The other scriptures a got through. So…it seems to me there are a lot of very smart brilliant people who are true believers. Are these people really believers or are they burying their heads or are they power hungryorjustafraid to face truth…now…it’s probably all the above but I’m curious on all your takes on this.
I'm a pseudo church scholar, so I'll put my two cents in! I've dedicated hundreds of hours to studying scriptures and church history and have watched GC talks everyday for five months now. So yeah, I'd say that obviously it's all of the above, depending on who we're talking about. But to make it a bit more concise I'll make a list based on the church hierarchy.
1. The Brethren: I think they started out as clueless members who were severely indoctrinated since birth. Once they reached the top of the hierarchy and became aware of the "issues" with church history, they started to become much more sketchy in their dealings in order to validate their authority positions to themselves and the members. I think they prioritize their position and the image of the church over the objective truth. I also think they employ lots of manipulative fear tactics against the church members but that they do so instinctively most of the time, rather than with absolute malicious intent, though there are definitely many times where they show that they know they're lying and are manipulating people.
2. The Seventy: I think they're mostly a bunch of yes-men who really don't know any better. The church is like a career to them and they're devoutly loyal company men.
3. The Stake and Bishopric: These guys have no clue what's going on. They're average joes who believe the church is true and are trying to help people. They have no idea what the hell is going on.
4. Average Members: This is basically the same as #3. However, they tend to also have no idea what's happening in regards to the inner workings of the church, whereas the people in #3 and #2 get to participate in more secretive meetings within the church hierarchy.
I'm a proud apostate, though not outspoken. I currently exist in Mormon Central, Orem, Utah. To get excommunicated, I merely need to establish a podcast, I guess. Oddly, I've professed total atheism and my Christ mysticism belief with my bishop, yet not been rejected! Turns out that you can believe anything! (As long as you don't. "damage the testimonies of others.") OK. I'll just tell truth to those who are receptive. (Almost
s everybody.)
1st vision was first published in Times & Seasons, Volume 3, Number 12, Page on April 15, 1842 . . . 20 years after it reportedly happened. Not included in "Mormon" scripture until 1889, 22 years after Smith's death. Not printed in missionary literature until early 1900s . . . early missionaries never heard of it. Here's a quote from Heber C. Kimball in 1857: "Do you suppose that God in person called upon Joseph Smith, our prophet? God called upon him; but God did not come himself and call, but he sent Peter todo it" (Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, Page 29).
Do you mean 45 years after Joseph’s death? He died in 1844.
@@mormonstories Yeah, I think that's the right number. My fingers move too fast sometimes.
Thank you for the anti-manipulation account of the first visions stories and their conflicting accounts that are nothing like Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Supposed scandal? There's no supposed, but definitely scandals. I like your title much better: Multiple and conflicting accounts of Joseph Smith's first vision: How the Mormon church and apologists mislead church members about the issue.
If you’re testimony is weak or destroyed it can only be restored the way it came to be in the first place. You have to have hope first, then have patience (charity) for your faith to build. It’s done through prayer and humility. There’s no other way. There never has been any other way. I’ve had my testimony destroyed before. I still work on it. It was restored in the exact way I described above.
So, what you're saying, if you believe it's true then it's true?
Very interesting discussion.
Joseph Smith created the word 'mormon' from 'moron' with an extra 'm' for 'many'.
It is indeed honorable, that certain people do hard research, for the sake of truth, yet the fact of various versions of Joseph Smith"s first vision, does not shatter me!
For me it is even rather a reinforcement of the authenticity of Joseph Smith's first vision. Just because he wrote it down in various kinds; the one of 1832 with Jesus Christ only and the latter with additionally God Father, has to do with Joseph Smith's own growing insight in his vision, as time progressed, untill he fully understood what his vision was about. His first memorandum contains only Jesus Christ. Ok good for the beginning anyhow!
Has anyone ever had a precise dream or not, during the night and rembered it in the following morning and even remembered more of it some time later, but had written down only the things, which at first seemed most important!?
Aren't we talking about visions of such kind, which had generally weakened Joseph Smith's physical constitution also?
Remarkable is also a vers in D&C in which it is told, that God shows - to some - in a very short moment, the verdict of the "sons of perdition" , but closes this vision again immediately!
Just to explain a bit, what a vision may be like.
It is not what most people might think in their humanly structured brain.
For 2022 will you have conferences? Sacrament to Portland?
When for Sacramento...or is this past date?
I went to a recent retreat! The retreats are awesome! SIGN UP TODAY and go to a retreat! You'll be glad you did!
Geez. . . I wouldn't wrestle two minutes with a one man originated religion. But it IS entertaining to watch them be conflicted, like a tragic comedy in real time.
Jesus rose from the dead so there was never a need for another Prophet of God to be called.
Think about it... Mormonism is a lie.
ALL religions are superstitious nonsense, and the 35,000 different versions of "christianity" are no different.
@@StaceyC123 agree!
We had a church from christ until 1830. And we still have a church. Great apostasy is a big lie.
What do these unbelievers gain from trying to tear down members' testimonies. Why don't they just decide what they believe and go on their way down their own paths leaving others alone.
Thanks for checking this episode out, Brenda. Wouldn't you agree that if an organization is not being honest with its members and is causing a lot of harm and grief to individuals and families that it is a worthwhile use of time to share the truth and help people heal? We certainly do.
Many of us can attest to the grief and pain that is caused when a beloved belief structure collapses under the weight of its own contradictions and dishonesty. As tough as that is to go through, most of us recognize it as a necessary part of our growth into better and happier human beings.
Broadly speaking, most actually do just "go on their way down their own paths" as you wish. It's typically the first 1-2 yrs of a faith crisis that is the most painful for someone to go through. As they cycle through intense emotions of grief, anger and betrayal, they often face rejection from parents, spouses, children, extended family, friends, and community. Things do eventually settle down pretty quickly for most.
It's just a small number of people that enjoy staying in this space to help other people who are suffering to find their paths to peace and happiness or who stay to act as a bridge to help preserve families and relationships that involve both believers and non believers.
Assuming there's someone you know and love who is in the process of leaving the Church or already has, just you being here shows a lot more initiative to understand your loved one than most are able to do. I am sure they will appreciate it. ❤️
So its ok for you to send missionaries to tell everyone their beliefs are wrong but when non members or ex members try to provide truth its not ok?? Until you escape the "bubble" the church made and look in from the outside and see the damage and the lies and the ridiculousness of it all, you will never understand why these "unbelievers" feel the need to speak up and let others know the actual truth they have never been told.
@@mdawgwhite exactly. I think most totally believing LDS members are afraid of the real truth that can be found outside of "official" church publications.
Where can I find that article?
¿Qué edad tienes? ¿Eres miembro de la iglesia LDS?
www.deseretnews.com/article/900020151/the-supposed-scandal-of-multiple-first-vision-accounts.html
So, what does all this mean? (All the different accounts) And has the church have confirmed these different accounts?
It means that Joseph Smith just made it all up as he went along. Many sincere Mormons are recently discovering what everyone else knew all along, whether on evidence or just gut instinct, that it's all man made nonsense. From a fictional Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith coercing and taking advantage of recruits and of women who thought he was 'chosen' and must be obeyed etc.
The only LIES being exposed are the LDS church's narrative of foundational events. Don't you ever get tired of promoting Lame apologetics?
ua-cam.com/video/gQ9_8OPB7Qk/v-deo.html
The continual changes of what happened in the "first vision"...
DATES WHEN JOSEPH SMITH GAVE DETAILS OF HIS "FIRST VISION":
In 1827 he said - A spirit appears to Joseph telling him of a record on gold plates, at age 17.
1827 he said - An angel appears to Joseph telling him he has been chosen to be a prophet and bring forth a record on gold plates, at age 18.
1830 he said - An angel tells Joseph where to find a secret treasure. Joseph returns once a year for several years before obtaining the plates.
1832 he said - Jesus Christ appears to Joseph, at age 15.
1834 he said - An angel appears to Joseph in his bedroom, at age 17.
1835 he said - Two personages appear to Joseph in a grove, at age 14.
1835 he said - Many angels appear to Joseph in a grove, at age 14.
1838 he said - God the Father and Jesus appear to Joseph in a grove,
at age 14.
1844 he said - Two unidentified personages appear to Joseph, at age 14.
ua-cam.com/video/gQ9_8OPB7Qk/v-deo.html
NINE DIFFERENT VERSIONS over 18 years !!
Did Joseph Smith outright LIE time after time? Was he confused? Did he forget what he'd said previously? Or WHAT?
The fact is that he gave many different versions of the "first vision".
Please refer to: www.namb.net/apologetics/the-truth-about-mormonism
/
If you look at the different first vision accounts along side other documents in chronological order, you can see that smiths veiws on the nature of God changed over time, which is sketchy for somone who "saw God".
Refer to the LDS church's web site for the different accounts Joseph Smith Jr. gave, of his "first vision":
www.lds.org/topics/first-vision-accounts?lang=eng
Here is some of the text from the Mormon web site:
"Joseph Smith recorded that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in a grove of trees near his parents’ home in western New York State when he was about 14 years old. Concerned by his sins and unsure which spiritual path to follow, Joseph sought guidance by attending meetings, reading scripture, and praying. In answer, he received a heavenly manifestation. Joseph shared and documented the First Vision, as it came to be known, on multiple occasions; he wrote or assigned scribes to write four different accounts of the vision.
"1832 Account. The earliest known account of the First Vision, the only account written in Joseph Smith’s own hand, is found in a short, unpublished autobiography Joseph Smith produced in the second half of 1832. In the account, Joseph Smith described his consciousness of his own sins and his frustration at being unable to find a church that matched the one he had read about in the New Testament and that would lead him to redemption. He emphasized Jesus Christ’s Atonement and the personal redemption it offered. He wrote that “the Lord” appeared and forgave him of his sins. As a result of the vision, Joseph experienced joy and love, though, as he noted, he could find no one who believed his account. Read the 1832 account here.
"1835 Account. In the fall of 1835, Joseph Smith recounted his First Vision to Robert Matthews, a visitor to Kirtland, Ohio. The retelling, recorded in Joseph’s journal by his scribe Warren Parrish, emphasizes his attempt to discover which church was right, the opposition he felt as he prayed, and the appearance of one divine personage who was followed shortly by another. This account also notes the appearance of angels in the vision. Read the 1835 account here.
"1838 Account. The narration of the First Vision best known to Latter-day Saints today is the 1838 account. First published in 1842 in the Times and Seasons, the Church’s newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, the account was part of a longer history dictated by Joseph Smith between periods of intense opposition. Whereas the 1832 account emphasizes the more personal story of Joseph Smith as a young man seeking forgiveness, the 1838 account focuses on the vision as the beginning of the “rise and progress of the Church.” Like the 1835 account, the central question of the narrative is which church is right. Read the 1838 account here.
"1842 Account. Written in response to Chicago Democrat editor John Wentworth’s request for information about the Latter-day Saints, this account was printed in the Times and Seasons in 1842. (The “Wentworth letter,” as it is commonly known, is also the source for the Articles of Faith.)4 The account, intended for publication to an audience unfamiliar with Mormon beliefs, is concise and straightforward. As with earlier accounts, Joseph Smith noted the confusion he experienced and the appearance of two personages in answer to his prayer. The following year, Joseph Smith sent this account with minor modifications to a historian named Israel Daniel Rupp, who published it as a chapter in his book, He Pasa Ekklesia [The Whole Church]: An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States.5 Read the 1842 account here.
"Secondhand Accounts. Besides these accounts from Joseph Smith himself, five accounts were written by contemporaries who heard Joseph Smith speak about the vision."
(END OF QUOTES FROM LDS WEB SITE)
Many different accounts of the "first vision" ! /
What is Apologists?
Do you have a search engine? Or a dictionary? /
Apologists are people who defend faith claims.
@@drspaseebo410 do people still have dictionaries? 😂
The first vision happened and Joseph Smith did see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. And questions?
The Hobbit is a more believable story. 😬
Keep drinking the kool-aid and paying those tithes 👍🏼