If you're folding this on a blank river, assuming you'd ship jack high flush on turn, seems super exploitable, as you're folding 100% of your range that gets here. I'd snap call river, or just ship turn. Also, with that many hearts out there, I think the likelihood of bare jack of hearts making a play goes up compared to usual plo nut blocker situation.
I think on the turn you decide you're never folding river with only 700 left, so you ship it and charge sets on either board. You're def not getting more value from sets on blank rivers so got to get it now.
I'm calling here 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. There is on one hand that beats you, and with so many hearts out that hand is less likely. The other player could have a lower flush, a complete bluff, or maybe just an Ace and thinks he is betting to get you off a chop. I can't imagine that I'd think more than a few seconds before calling.
With $700 left, I think you have to call. However, I had this EXACT scenario a few weeks ago where I made the 2nd nut flush on both boards, and lo and behold the other guy did have the nut flush on both after the flop checked around. When everyone gets to see the flop in PLO bomb pots, the likelihood of these flush over flush scenarios is actually WAY higher, even with all the extra hearts on board, it still happens fairly often.
Adding to this: one of the two players on the turn is absolutely behind you. Possibly both, but certainly one of them. You have to get that player to donate more on the turn to make your continued play more profitable. (Again folding is FINE if you want to). You still might be drawing dead, but for the times you're legit ahead, you make way more $ by raising the turn, making up for the times you're already screwed. Calling turn IMO is the absolute worst here. If you are gonna play the hand post turn, you have to play it in the most profitable way, which means making draws pay.
I think this is a call regardless, but timing is super important here. The longer LJ tanks, the more likely it is they have a weaker flush rather than FH draws on both boards that also call the turn. If LJ tank folds (meaning they have a weak flush), it becomes MUCH less likely that BB has JhXh.
For me: You can't call the turn without planning to call any non-paired river. The pot odds will be way too high to ever justify a fold. So, my turn call is opponent-dependent. If I am up against OMC in SB, it's a fold. Nits just never bet turn here without the J flush. The caller in between almost never has the J flush, they're usually raising, so that's dead money to me, but almost certainly has a set on one of the 2 boards, so I want to make them pay. Since I am 100% never gonna fold the river, I rip turn, and make my OPPONENTS pay to chase. If I am behind SB already, it is what it is, too short here to fold second nut flush on 2 boards without a solid nit read. But now I have increased my value for when I AM ahead, and made drawing hands (sets, 2p) pay the max. Flat turn/fold river is, I think, the worst possible line. It's just a donation. Also - what do you do if one river pairs? If two rivers pair? Absolutely no way to know where you stand on the river - you have the most possible information about your relative hand strength on the turn. The river will only obfuscate things. One last thought: there's absolutely no problem with folding the turn here. Zero variance play in these games is fine; saving ammo for spots where you know you're ahead is an absolutely sound strategy. It happens often enough, and you'll almost always get action when it does. My strategy in these games: never pay to draw to the non-nuts, never draw at ALL unless a scoop is possible, NEVER draw to naked straights, and the nut straight vs. a river bet is barely more than a bluff catcher, unless you have nut nut straights. When you're sure you're mathematically ahead, pot it, unless you have the unbeatable stones (quads, straight flush), in which case, build a multiway pot the best way you can.
hey bart had to comment. purpose of large sizing with 3rd nut is two fold, (whether or not assuming jhi is dead) you are committing, essentially not allowing a nut blocker play to be made on you and you have an opportunity to bluff out the 2nd nut. but i agree, i think he was just going for value.
I had your exact same logic. Leading on the river for pot stops any nut blocker bluffs and can (AND DID!) get the 2nd nuts to fold. It’s a decent play in this position imo. However I think most players call the river with the 9 high flush. I would have.
Tough break there. I think i call here too, especially when the Ah comes out on the turn. With 8 hearts accounted for and getting almost 3-1 like Bart explained i just have to roll with it.
Long time ago, playing limit Omaha high, I was in a blind with 4 diamonds. The board flopped me the 2nd nut flush. I called a bet. Turn and river were ALSO diamond. I called 2 more bets and got shown the nuts.
I has to be pointed out that SB potted into the whole table on the turn. - Makes it quite unlikely that he ever has a bluff with the Jh. Means: It is for the most part between what may be considered an overplay from Villain on two streets ( The 8-high Flush was likely a C/F turn) , and the Nuts.
Just an easy call, if the opponent is good they do this all day holding just the Jh. If you fold here you are so exploitable, might as well move down in stakes if you can’t find this call…
Just watching this and commenting as I watch. When the flop checks around to the hero, hero needs to bet on the flop. But before we get into that - why is it a $50 bomb pot - 1k effective in a $50 bomb pot double board is NOT Enough of a stack. Shouldn’t of even put the $50 to start (except that hero is on the button)….. But when it checks on flop bet the flop. Hero needed to bet 25-100 on flop On the turn when you have the 2nd nuts on both boards - and it’s a full pot size bet on the turn you need to either fold it out (ok play - because the sb betting into the field demonstrates a hand that can scoop you easily)…. Or you ship it. Calling in this position is the worst because you still don’t know what to do on the river if one board pairs - either ship on turn or fold. But the biggest mistake overlooked was not betting the flop IN POSITION.
Im shipping it on the turn, making it a tough decision for all the sets/two pairs that already invested 300 so you can say that they are committed, they will always fold on a brick on the river. If im against the bigger flush so be it, don’t see a reason for a call on the turn having only 1k
I'd instacall this river. Opponent could be bluffing with a naked jack which is likely given that theres 8 hearts on the boards and in the hero's hand. Also opponent could easily overvalue a lower flush because they think it's not likely anyone else has the flush with all the hearts out there.
The fact that the super honest Must guy has a "buddy" in the game who holds the nut blocker and he doesn't somehow get the information....let's just say that wouldn't happen with the scumbags I play with.😎
When LJ folds I call. It’s either j high flush or 7 high flush from SB. You’re getting odds. If LJ calls or jams I’m dead. Been in this spot a few times in Texas. 7 high flush is over betting with the pots but many NL players don’t know how to play PLO bomb and they either e check or pot. Better players make less than pot value bets. I think the J high flush by a decent player is betting less than pot to PULL all opponents in. Potting is a push
5 opponents have 20 cards out of 38. 1) what is the probability that Jh is among them? 2) what is the probability that Jh is together with another heart? Sinple problem for combinatorics class. 1) might be less relevantvgiven the action we may just assume it. 2) too lazy to compute, but I really doubt it is above 75% (even above 66%, which could be relevant had the hero had full pot behind). My answer: always call with second nuts
okay... Jh is among a given set of 4 cards. Four more hearts unaccounted for: 7632, 37-4=33 unaccounted non-heart cards. Chances there is no heart among those three are: (33/37)*(32/36)*(31/35) = 70%. Answer to the second question - 30%. Call.
This hand is rare 100%, it's flushes only... Normally there's set/boat on one board (paired board). Personally, I call w/second..it almost feels mandatory... Funny, it's rare there's even another flush player? "Dispersion/dilution" reduces that likelihood.. Most of thee games I travel to have had these DBPLOBP, on average, a couple times an hour... Playing correctly (as possible) in just the DBPLOBP...can make or break one's session... And, honestly, it's the easiest place to develope an edge, because most don't work/study @ it.....
Your less click baity thumbnails are more on brand for you and your content…I’m here to learn not feel or be entertained. HCL, Polk and others are all fighting for the shock and controversy stuff
Seriously - second nuts on both boards where 8 of the 13 hearts are accounted for? I'm never folding unpaired rivers. I'd have raised turn to not accidentally lose half or the entire pot to the middle guy catching boats, but as played, it's just gotta be wrong to fold the river here. Not only could someone certainly be taking this line with the Jh, but plenty of people who aren't super experienced in PLO or double board bomb pots could take this line with any flush - anyone vaguely competent knows how rare it is for someone else to have two hearts in this sport given that you'd have 8+ accounted for. Especially if the other guy has 3-4 hearts instead of just 2, making it nearly impossible you're ever beat.
Can't bad players just think no one has a flush and jam a straight with some heart blockers? You beat some value and some bluffs. Easy call getting more than 2 to 1.
i had a flush draw on both boards and called to see the turns... blanks someone mentioned something about a flush which made me fold on the turns my double flush came on the river and i was so tilted.. would had scoooped a huge player talked me into folding
Wow how do you fold here? Guy shoves 700 into 1200 and you fold 2nd nuts on both boards? What if dudes got like AA with a straight on top and maybe Jh for a blocker. So many more lesser value than bluffs.
SB really shouldn’t be potting river with 7 high flush. He got called in two spots on the turn and at least one of those people has a flush and theres 7 flush combos that beat him and 3 that don’t. Because he got called in 2 spots on the turn you have to think he’d shut down some percentage of the time on the river with the naked jack. If I’m hero I think I’m randomizing and calling river 2/3 of the time.
Thumbs up if you’re jamming the turn here. Calling puts you in the dumbest position (see video 🤣). Still might get calls from people looking to gamble for paired board.
These double board bomb pots are so bad for the game. One guy hit n runs 4 players and takes all the money off the table, two of those players go on tilt and just quit the game, and then the other two rebuy for the minimum. None of the money goes to the players you want it to go to so that you can actually play poker and stack them
They’re not bad. Chasers keeps things reasonable by limiting the # of bomb pots to 2 per dealer. Also the 2/5, 5/5, 5/10 and 10/10 players usually have at least 3 full buy ins on them, often 5-10, one guy regularly has $40k in his pockets. Pretty much never anyone hitting and running, its a core group of regular players that will usually play either all day or to a specific point in the day.
Newest form of poker? Used to play double flop PLO over 15 years ago!!! This was the standard game in most dealers choice games in uk and Ireland casinos for years….are we going to see a badugi revival soon?! That was a shit game..
Good analysis by Bort here.
If you're folding this on a blank river, assuming you'd ship jack high flush on turn, seems super exploitable, as you're folding 100% of your range that gets here. I'd snap call river, or just ship turn. Also, with that many hearts out there, I think the likelihood of bare jack of hearts making a play goes up compared to usual plo nut blocker situation.
yes, thats true. 70% bare Jh
I think on the turn you decide you're never folding river with only 700 left, so you ship it and charge sets on either board. You're def not getting more value from sets on blank rivers so got to get it now.
I'm calling here 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. There is on one hand that beats you, and with so many hearts out that hand is less likely. The other player could have a lower flush, a complete bluff, or maybe just an Ace and thinks he is betting to get you off a chop. I can't imagine that I'd think more than a few seconds before calling.
nice, after 17 minutes I have now mastered the game!
With $700 left, I think you have to call. However, I had this EXACT scenario a few weeks ago where I made the 2nd nut flush on both boards, and lo and behold the other guy did have the nut flush on both after the flop checked around. When everyone gets to see the flop in PLO bomb pots, the likelihood of these flush over flush scenarios is actually WAY higher, even with all the extra hearts on board, it still happens fairly often.
You're not lying!!!
Adding to this: one of the two players on the turn is absolutely behind you. Possibly both, but certainly one of them. You have to get that player to donate more on the turn to make your continued play more profitable. (Again folding is FINE if you want to). You still might be drawing dead, but for the times you're legit ahead, you make way more $ by raising the turn, making up for the times you're already screwed. Calling turn IMO is the absolute worst here. If you are gonna play the hand post turn, you have to play it in the most profitable way, which means making draws pay.
I think this is a call regardless, but timing is super important here. The longer LJ tanks, the more likely it is they have a weaker flush rather than FH draws on both boards that also call the turn. If LJ tank folds (meaning they have a weak flush), it becomes MUCH less likely that BB has JhXh.
More of this please. I am especially interested in hands where the board has one hand with a pair and how that influences play.
For me: You can't call the turn without planning to call any non-paired river. The pot odds will be way too high to ever justify a fold. So, my turn call is opponent-dependent. If I am up against OMC in SB, it's a fold. Nits just never bet turn here without the J flush. The caller in between almost never has the J flush, they're usually raising, so that's dead money to me, but almost certainly has a set on one of the 2 boards, so I want to make them pay. Since I am 100% never gonna fold the river, I rip turn, and make my OPPONENTS pay to chase. If I am behind SB already, it is what it is, too short here to fold second nut flush on 2 boards without a solid nit read. But now I have increased my value for when I AM ahead, and made drawing hands (sets, 2p) pay the max. Flat turn/fold river is, I think, the worst possible line. It's just a donation. Also - what do you do if one river pairs? If two rivers pair? Absolutely no way to know where you stand on the river - you have the most possible information about your relative hand strength on the turn. The river will only obfuscate things. One last thought: there's absolutely no problem with folding the turn here. Zero variance play in these games is fine; saving ammo for spots where you know you're ahead is an absolutely sound strategy. It happens often enough, and you'll almost always get action when it does. My strategy in these games: never pay to draw to the non-nuts, never draw at ALL unless a scoop is possible, NEVER draw to naked straights, and the nut straight vs. a river bet is barely more than a bluff catcher, unless you have nut nut straights. When you're sure you're mathematically ahead, pot it, unless you have the unbeatable stones (quads, straight flush), in which case, build a multiway pot the best way you can.
It's ok to get stacked with the second nut sometimes. Sometimes in a poker game you have to play poker...
hey bart had to comment. purpose of large sizing with 3rd nut is two fold, (whether or not assuming jhi is dead) you are committing, essentially not allowing a nut blocker play to be made on you and you have an opportunity to bluff out the 2nd nut.
but i agree, i think he was just going for value.
I had your exact same logic. Leading on the river for pot stops any nut blocker bluffs and can (AND DID!) get the 2nd nuts to fold. It’s a decent play in this position imo. However I think most players call the river with the 9 high flush. I would have.
The power of being OOP
I'm gonna start calling you Bert then when you correct me, I'll call you Bert a dozen more times 😂
This game looks crazy. I'm sticking with regular hold'em. 😂
Are you kidding? This hand makes me want to fly over there and play. The 7 high flush bet is horrific and the 9 high fold is worse.
Tough break there. I think i call here too, especially when the Ah comes out on the turn. With 8 hearts accounted for and getting almost 3-1 like Bart explained i just have to roll with it.
Wonder if a deck change came in? BignO game has this happen where we get lotsnof one suit represented when dealer is lazy on shuffle
Long time ago, playing limit Omaha high, I was in a blind with 4 diamonds.
The board flopped me the 2nd nut flush. I called a bet.
Turn and river were ALSO diamond. I called 2 more bets and got shown the nuts.
I has to be pointed out that SB potted into the whole table on the turn. - Makes it quite unlikely that he ever has a bluff with the Jh.
Means: It is for the most part between what may be considered an overplay from Villain on two streets ( The 8-high Flush was likely a C/F turn) , and the Nuts.
On a single board, I'd be hesitant but same flush double board, I'd definitely have to call this.
Background chosen to match Bart's fleece? 🤣
Just an easy call, if the opponent is good they do this all day holding just the Jh. If you fold here you are so exploitable, might as well move down in stakes if you can’t find this call…
Just watching this and commenting as I watch. When the flop checks around to the hero, hero needs to bet on the flop.
But before we get into that - why is it a $50 bomb pot - 1k effective in a $50 bomb pot double board is NOT Enough of a stack. Shouldn’t of even put the $50 to start (except that hero is on the button)…..
But when it checks on flop bet the flop. Hero needed to bet 25-100 on flop
On the turn when you have the 2nd nuts on both boards - and it’s a full pot size bet on the turn you need to either fold it out (ok play - because the sb betting into the field demonstrates a hand that can scoop you easily)….
Or you ship it.
Calling in this position is the worst because you still don’t know what to do on the river if one board pairs - either ship on turn or fold.
But the biggest mistake overlooked was not betting the flop IN POSITION.
Im shipping it on the turn, making it a tough decision for all the sets/two pairs that already invested 300 so you can say that they are committed, they will always fold on a brick on the river. If im against the bigger flush so be it, don’t see a reason for a call on the turn having only 1k
Haha I'd probably do the same
14:25 man he really ..... botched that one up!
I'd instacall this river. Opponent could be bluffing with a naked jack which is likely given that theres 8 hearts on the boards and in the hero's hand. Also opponent could easily overvalue a lower flush because they think it's not likely anyone else has the flush with all the hearts out there.
I have never folding on that river with that hand in that situation holy crap
What's up, Bart?? Hope all is well.
Hello! Thank's for stopping by!
Bart have you played much short deck? what are your thoughts on the game?
Not a fan of short deck because the hand values differ and you have to be so nutted to give action. And this is coming from an omaha player.
Hey Bart, I got a public cardroom that runs a 25 ante PLO double board bomb pot only game. Interested? Lol.
It's uncapped, by the way.
The fact that the super honest Must guy has a "buddy" in the game who holds the nut blocker and he doesn't somehow get the information....let's just say that wouldn't happen with the scumbags I play with.😎
Calling all day. Could have the dry jack there or have a straight on both boards. No way am I ever folding unless I’m playing the nittiest of nits
One of my favourite games, double board bomb pots plo and hi-lo 😊
When LJ folds I call. It’s either j high flush or 7 high flush from SB. You’re getting odds. If LJ calls or jams I’m dead. Been in this spot a few times in Texas. 7 high flush is over betting with the pots but many NL players don’t know how to play PLO bomb and they either e check or pot. Better players make less than pot value bets. I think the J high flush by a decent player is betting less than pot to PULL all opponents in. Potting is a push
5 opponents have 20 cards out of 38. 1) what is the probability that Jh is among them? 2) what is the probability that Jh is together with another heart? Sinple problem for combinatorics class. 1) might be less relevantvgiven the action we may just assume it. 2) too lazy to compute, but I really doubt it is above 75% (even above 66%, which could be relevant had the hero had full pot behind). My answer: always call with second nuts
okay... Jh is among a given set of 4 cards. Four more hearts unaccounted for: 7632, 37-4=33 unaccounted non-heart cards. Chances there is no heart among those three are: (33/37)*(32/36)*(31/35) = 70%. Answer to the second question - 30%. Call.
This hand is rare 100%, it's flushes only... Normally there's set/boat on one board (paired board). Personally, I call w/second..it almost feels mandatory...
Funny, it's rare there's even another flush player? "Dispersion/dilution" reduces that likelihood..
Most of thee games I travel to have had these DBPLOBP, on average, a couple times an hour...
Playing correctly (as possible) in just the DBPLOBP...can make or break one's session... And, honestly, it's the easiest place to develope an edge, because most don't work/study @ it.....
This is a 5 second decision. If you have it, you have it
Your less click baity thumbnails are more on brand for you and your content…I’m here to learn not feel or be entertained.
HCL, Polk and others are all fighting for the shock and controversy stuff
I'm an idiot when it comes to PLO. If I have 9 high flush I'm snapping that shove 🤷🏽♂️
If he's got it he's got it. Time to rebuy 👍🏽
Seriously - second nuts on both boards where 8 of the 13 hearts are accounted for? I'm never folding unpaired rivers. I'd have raised turn to not accidentally lose half or the entire pot to the middle guy catching boats, but as played, it's just gotta be wrong to fold the river here. Not only could someone certainly be taking this line with the Jh, but plenty of people who aren't super experienced in PLO or double board bomb pots could take this line with any flush - anyone vaguely competent knows how rare it is for someone else to have two hearts in this sport given that you'd have 8+ accounted for. Especially if the other guy has 3-4 hearts instead of just 2, making it nearly impossible you're ever beat.
I haven’t seen the results yet all I know is I’m snap calling river assuming he has naked jack lol
So you can play the same 2 cards on both boards? Big fish 🐟 alert!!!
I know you shouldn't be paying people off on the river but when you got the second nuts I don't think it's that bad to pay somebody off.
I wish i could be in the position he was. If he gots it he got it
Can't bad players just think no one has a flush and jam a straight with some heart blockers?
You beat some value and some bluffs. Easy call getting more than 2 to 1.
i had a flush draw on both boards and called to see the turns... blanks
someone mentioned something about a flush which made me fold on the turns
my double flush came on the river and i was so tilted.. would had scoooped a huge
player talked me into folding
I would have thought he had q3
Wow how do you fold here? Guy shoves 700 into 1200 and you fold 2nd nuts on both boards? What if dudes got like AA with a straight on top and maybe Jh for a blocker. So many more lesser value than bluffs.
This was played at Chasers 💅💅💅
SB really shouldn’t be potting river with 7 high flush. He got called in two spots on the turn and at least one of those people has a flush and theres 7 flush combos that beat him and 3 that don’t.
Because he got called in 2 spots on the turn you have to think he’d shut down some percentage of the time on the river with the naked jack.
If I’m hero I think I’m randomizing and calling river 2/3 of the time.
Thumbs up if you’re jamming the turn here. Calling puts you in the dumbest position (see video 🤣). Still might get calls from people looking to gamble for paired board.
The man's name is Bo-ch 😂 not Botch
My goodness
Bart trying to connect with this guy at the beginning is worth a re-listen
I had trouble w his name
He wasn’t having it lol
@@CrushlivePoker You kept "botching" it 😂
NEVER EVER FOLDING
These double board bomb pots are so bad for the game. One guy hit n runs 4 players and takes all the money off the table, two of those players go on tilt and just quit the game, and then the other two rebuy for the minimum. None of the money goes to the players you want it to go to so that you can actually play poker and stack them
They’re not bad. Chasers keeps things reasonable by limiting the # of bomb pots to 2 per dealer.
Also the 2/5, 5/5, 5/10 and 10/10 players usually have at least 3 full buy ins on them, often 5-10, one guy regularly has $40k in his pockets.
Pretty much never anyone hitting and running, its a core group of regular players that will usually play either all day or to a specific point in the day.
I call with my eyes closed
Buck threw em in the muck…. 😔
Dang it Boch, you Botched the hand
💅
Way too many callers seeing way too many monsters under the bed
Buck 😂
He is playing money scared, thus playing at the wrong stakes. Play 1/3 or 2/5 at the most
Exactly. Nitty played too big
nit
If you had the full 1200, a fold could be considered. With 700 this is a snap call.
cry call and hate it.
Botched
Newest form of poker? Used to play double flop PLO over 15 years ago!!! This was the standard game in most dealers choice games in uk and Ireland casinos for years….are we going to see a badugi revival soon?! That was a shit game..