Great video! I could've watched a whole hour of examples! Just moved back to the US after living in Vienna for 7 years. Wish we could've met to discuss music.
Thanks for the video! I did not know the Kirnberger tuning so well, but it has similarities with the Valotti tuning which usese 6 pure fifths. I think you are so right when you say that the equal temperament takes away a lot of the essence of what the composer meant when he/she wrote the piece. Equal temperament is like democracy: everyone can live with it but nobody is really happy!
Thank you so much for this video. I'm in college, and it seems like nobody cares about recreating these old tuning systems because most people cannot hear the difference, but I hope more people become interested. It must have been so amazing to experience the different characteristics of each key. Do you know of any recording of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier in the tuning system he would have used?
Agreed. To me, using historical temperaments is one of the most important factors in musical expression. I don't have a specific recording recommendation. It's important to remember that we don't have concrete historical evidence on which specific unequal temperament Bach used. He more than likely used a temperament such as Werckmeister or Kirnberger that spreads the extra comma across 5 tempered fifths.
Nicely explained and good examples. You could go even further forward to Chopin for examples in F♯ minor. The Beethoven excerpt was mostly open octaves and melodic intervals (quite deliberate of course).
thank you so much for that fantastic demonstration! I've been digging around trying to find recordings of whole classical pieces in uneven temperament. Do you know of any? or any conductors/orchestras who play/record in uneven temperament?
I'm happy that you enjoyed this video! Fortepianists and harpsichordists are good sources for unequal temperament recordings. When not playing with a keyboard, orchestras play as close as possible to just/pure intonation because unfretted strings can do it, unlike keyboards. In just/pure intonation, flat notes are higher than sharps (e.g., Eb is higher than D#), but tempered tuning systems (both unequal and equal) treat those two notes as if they are the same.
Picking which instrumentnto inspire my son for our homeschool musoc this year. I hope to inspire a love of classical. Any advice helpful. The oiano is a classical instrument. I disnt know that hearing all the modern uses
I’m intrigued. I wonder if I could get my instrument tuned that way for a month to experiment or if I would lose my mind in a week and call the tuner back out early.
This is actually a very good video as the correct music samples are matched to the right temperament for the period. But please redo the sound, terrible echo & reflections.
I'm glad that you liked the video. It was recorded during COVID lockdown (as evidenced by my crazy hair) and I did my best to quickly provide educational videos using the equipment I had. I plan to re-record some of my videos this year.
I am reading Jan Swafford's book on Beethoven and she goes on and on about this. So I googled the thing and found your video. I have some questions: What evidence do you have for this postulate? To say that "wohltemperiert" means "well-tempered" rather than "equal tempered" is far too thin to count as evidence, especially as the German language does not have a word for "equal" ("egal" means something different doesn't it?). You are Austrian, you know that. And how come this evidence has stayed hidden (where?) all these years while we were all so stupid and believed in equal tempered tuning? Anyway, your theory would not explain why keys would have the same character on "Clavier" (Bach's word for any keyboard instrument) and piano-less orchestra or chamber groups. Moreover it will be practically impossible for string players to play with decent intonation in f-sharp (major or minor) when playing piano trio. Anyway, f-sharp minor in your demo sounds like terribly bad intonation to me, not like key character.
The German "wohltemperiert-“ translates to "well-tempered" in English. The German “gleichtemperiert-” translates to “equal-tempered.” Tuning keyboards in unequal temperaments isn't hidden information or a theory; rather, there is a general misunderstanding by many non-German-speaking musicians who assume Bach was celebrating equal temperament because that's the temperament used today. You’re right about the key characteristics associated with keyboard music not transferring cleanly to other ensembles. Keyboard temperaments were not used by chamber ensembles without keyboard, but other unequal temperaments were - such as an extended meantone system - providing their own set of key characteristics. Modern ears that are used to equal temperament need a moment to adjust to well-tempered tuning but, as I said in the video, one must really search for pieces in f-sharp minor because all of the intervals are narrow, creating a very unusual, but interesting key characteristic. If you want to learn more, I recommend two books: * Dr. Rita Steblin's A History of Key Characteristics in the 18th and Early 19th Centuries www.amazon.com/History-Characteristics-18th-Early-Centuries/dp/1580460410 * Dr. Ross Duffin’s How Equal Temperament Ruined Music (And Why You Should Care) www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Should/dp/0393334201 (Don’t let the confrontational name repel you; it’s an interesting read).
The orchestra of the late 17th through 18th century did not consist exclusively of string instruments. The woodwinds, and brass instruments lacking the later evolution with the addition of key systems of these instruments weren’t always “in tune”, with the exception of the Sackbut/trombone. The Horn players of J S Bach’s time did not use a hand in the bell, Cecile Forsythe in his Orchestration, noted that Haydn never indicated the use, Mozart only used stopped notes in solos, and Beethoven used these in both solos and tutti. Back to Bach and Handel as to the Natural Trumpet and horn, from paintings, drawings, etc. now called iconography, even with the virtuoso lip technique, and the availability of crooks, the instruments are in general associated with celebratory, marshal, nobility, victorious music primarily in the key of D major The association extends from opera the most popular form of entertainment and to keyboard, primarily the Harpsichord composers who wrote music in imitation of this practice. Rameau in his Treatise on Harmony wrote, “The key of either C, D, or A in the major mode is suitable for songs of mirth and joy. Either F or B-flat is appropriate for tempests, furies, and such subjects. Either G or E is right for both tender and happy songs. Grandeur and magnificence can be expressed by the key of either D, A, or E. The minor mode in the key of either d, g, b, or e is apt for sweetness and gentleness. The key of either c or f minor is suitable for gentleness or laments; f or b-flat minor is appropriate for melancholy songs.” Rameau was an advocate of Equal Temperament, mention by Werkmeister, who used mentioned this as well as Well Temperament. However, in France the mean tone system was more popular as to its key associated affections. Galileo’s father and other Lutenists advocated ET but the system did not become popular. Although Lutes and Viola da Gamba had moveable frets, the instruments did not as a rule have works composed in remote keys, even by J S Bach. CPE in his Art of Playing The Keyboard referenced a WT system, Kirnberger in the 1770’s writes of WT. Young’s temperament and its variant in circa 1800 was still WT. However, what is called ET in the 19th Century isn’t. And for good reason. The instrument that could accurately measure the frequency for ET tuning doesn’t become available until after the turn of the 20th Century, what was called ET wasn’t WT, but in the 19th it wasn’t accurately spread equally among the 12 notes on a keyboard, as the human ear couldn’t distinguish the pitch and the beats used to set the temperament. UA-cam has piano tuners who have videos demonstrating the difference. To my knowledge, I am unaware of an International Congress declaration of the universal adoption of ET. As a foot to WT, unequal or circulating temperaments weren’t abandoned with the posthumous 1707 Werkmeister treatise that advocated such. In fact it wasn’t his first mention. Mean Tone tuning of Organs persisted in some rural areas until mid-19th century. J S Bach wasn’t the first to compose advocating WT, Mattheson had beat Bach to the punch with Figured Bass lessons in all 24 Keys. JCF Fischer Ariadne Musica 1702 published a set of 20 preludes and fugues for organ 19 different keys in one in a church mode, Bach paid homage by writing a Fugue in the WTC Pt on one of the subjects. As a foot note, many historically informed keyboard players use Vallotti unequal temperament for playing Bach’s WTC in this tuning or Beethoven. This is highly inappropriate for HIP performance. Why? Outside of direct contact with the cleric in Italy, his 1779 volume 1 publication does not give directions. The second through 4th volumes which contains the directions wasn’t published until 1958. The variant commonly called after its inventor came later. Other than Tartini’s incomplete mentions and Barca’s unpublished in the 18th century and another 20th publication, the temperament’s popularity is at odds with its history.
"And how come this evidence has stayed hidden (where?) all these years while we were all so stupid and believed in equal tempered tuning?" There's misinformation everywhere and classical music is no exception. The more you learn, the more you will realize how many myths exist in any particular subject. "Anyway, your theory would not explain why keys would have the same character on "Clavier"" Actually this is not something I agree with, even though it's a very common viewpoint. Every key has its colors even in equal temperament. Unequal temperament creates more variations, obviously. But it is hard to say Bach cared deeply about such a thing when he was transposing his own pieces for mostly practical reasons. The primary reason for unequal temperament is superior harmony. Piano trios - at least the good ones - are aware of this. Although it's hard to say they always consciously care about it.
Can an untrained ear hear the difference between the SAME piece played in the different keys? Playing a 'happy' piece in one tuning and a 'sad' piece in another tuning doesn't demonstrate--at least to me--the difference in tunings. I've been aware of this issue for a long time but have never heard an actual demonstration of the difference despite being able to say, truthfully, "Ich war in Wien geboren."
Thanks for your question! While I can’t speak for everyone’s experience, the characteristic differences between the various keys in unequal tuning systems vs. equal tuning is normally quite pronounced. I think that most people would hear the differences in a side-by-side comparison.
According to Wikipedia, no one knows which exact tuning Bach meant by “well-tempered”. But you present your ideas here as if they are non-controversial. Can you provide a source for your claim? And what about all the historians that have made contrary claims?
"No one knows which exact tuning Bach meant by “well-tempered”" That's true, we don't know which 'well' temperement he meant exactly. However, we do know that he didn't use the equal temperament...
1:18 AFAIK this is actually not true. While Bach knew of the equal temperament, he did not use it. His "Well-tempered Clavier" was not made to show off the equal temperament but to provide an set of exercises to transpose on sight (a skill expected of good organists at the time). Also, as a nice theoretically satisfying "complete" set.
Apologies if the storytelling caused a bit of confusion… At 1:28, I said “But, this story isn’t accurate,” and then video explains the category of well-temperaments Bach was celebrating with his WTC.
My piano is tuned in Werkmeister III - I love period music played in this temperament!
Thank you for explaining this so simply.
Great video! I could've watched a whole hour of examples! Just moved back to the US after living in Vienna for 7 years. Wish we could've met to discuss music.
Thanks for your kind comment! We appreciated your comedy shows -- it's Vienna's loss to see you go. All the best.
Thanks for the video! I did not know the Kirnberger tuning so well, but it has similarities with the Valotti tuning which usese 6 pure fifths. I think you are so right when you say that the equal temperament takes away a lot of the essence of what the composer meant when he/she wrote the piece. Equal temperament is like democracy: everyone can live with it but nobody is really happy!
Thank you so much for this video. I'm in college, and it seems like nobody cares about recreating these old tuning systems because most people cannot hear the difference, but I hope more people become interested. It must have been so amazing to experience the different characteristics of each key. Do you know of any recording of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier in the tuning system he would have used?
Agreed. To me, using historical temperaments is one of the most important factors in musical expression.
I don't have a specific recording recommendation. It's important to remember that we don't have concrete historical evidence on which specific unequal temperament Bach used. He more than likely used a temperament such as Werckmeister or Kirnberger that spreads the extra comma across 5 tempered fifths.
" *most people cannot hear the difference* "
Say people heavily invested in the status quo. Nothing to see here. Enjoy our piano Olympics! ;-)
Nicely explained and good examples. You could go even further forward to Chopin for examples in F♯ minor. The Beethoven excerpt was mostly open octaves and melodic intervals (quite deliberate of course).
My high school violin student and I just watched this and we learned a lot. C minor and F-sharp minor were really intense lol
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
thank you so much for that fantastic demonstration! I've been digging around trying to find recordings of whole classical pieces in uneven temperament. Do you know of any? or any conductors/orchestras who play/record in uneven temperament?
I'm happy that you enjoyed this video!
Fortepianists and harpsichordists are good sources for unequal temperament recordings. When not playing with a keyboard, orchestras play as close as possible to just/pure intonation because unfretted strings can do it, unlike keyboards. In just/pure intonation, flat notes are higher than sharps (e.g., Eb is higher than D#), but tempered tuning systems (both unequal and equal) treat those two notes as if they are the same.
I just bought Beethoven In The Temperments by Enid Katahn. She plays Pathetique, Moonlight & Waldstein Sonatas.
Picking which instrumentnto inspire my son for our homeschool musoc this year. I hope to inspire a love of classical. Any advice helpful. The oiano is a classical instrument. I disnt know that hearing all the modern uses
I’m intrigued. I wonder if I could get my instrument tuned that way for a month to experiment or if I would lose my mind in a week and call the tuner back out early.
I’ve done it. My upright is tuned in Werkmeister III and I love it!
Which Kirnberger is this?
Kirnberger III
This is actually a very good video as the correct music samples are matched to the right temperament for the period. But please redo the sound, terrible echo & reflections.
I'm glad that you liked the video. It was recorded during COVID lockdown (as evidenced by my crazy hair) and I did my best to quickly provide educational videos using the equipment I had. I plan to re-record some of my videos this year.
I am reading Jan Swafford's book on Beethoven and she goes on and on about this. So I googled the thing and found your video. I have some questions: What evidence do you have for this postulate? To say that "wohltemperiert" means "well-tempered" rather than "equal tempered" is far too thin to count as evidence, especially as the German language does not have a word for "equal" ("egal" means something different doesn't it?). You are Austrian, you know that.
And how come this evidence has stayed hidden (where?) all these years while we were all so stupid and believed in equal tempered tuning?
Anyway, your theory would not explain why keys would have the same character on "Clavier" (Bach's word for any keyboard instrument) and piano-less orchestra or chamber groups. Moreover it will be practically impossible for string players to play with decent intonation in f-sharp (major or minor) when playing piano trio. Anyway, f-sharp minor in your demo sounds like terribly bad intonation to me, not like key character.
The German "wohltemperiert-“ translates to "well-tempered" in English. The German “gleichtemperiert-” translates to “equal-tempered.”
Tuning keyboards in unequal temperaments isn't hidden information or a theory; rather, there is a general misunderstanding by many non-German-speaking musicians who assume Bach was celebrating equal temperament because that's the temperament used today.
You’re right about the key characteristics associated with keyboard music not transferring cleanly to other ensembles. Keyboard temperaments were not used by chamber ensembles without keyboard, but other unequal temperaments were - such as an extended meantone system - providing their own set of key characteristics.
Modern ears that are used to equal temperament need a moment to adjust to well-tempered tuning but, as I said in the video, one must really search for pieces in f-sharp minor because all of the intervals are narrow, creating a very unusual, but interesting key characteristic.
If you want to learn more, I recommend two books:
* Dr. Rita Steblin's A History of Key Characteristics in the 18th and Early 19th Centuries www.amazon.com/History-Characteristics-18th-Early-Centuries/dp/1580460410
* Dr. Ross Duffin’s How Equal Temperament Ruined Music (And Why You Should Care) www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Should/dp/0393334201 (Don’t let the confrontational name repel you; it’s an interesting read).
The orchestra of the late 17th through 18th century did not consist exclusively of string instruments. The woodwinds, and brass instruments lacking the later evolution with the addition of key systems of these instruments weren’t always “in tune”, with the exception of the Sackbut/trombone. The Horn players of J S Bach’s time did not use a hand in the bell, Cecile Forsythe in his Orchestration, noted that Haydn never indicated the use, Mozart only used stopped notes in solos, and Beethoven used these in both solos and tutti.
Back to Bach and Handel as to the Natural Trumpet and horn, from paintings, drawings, etc. now called iconography, even with the virtuoso lip technique, and the availability of crooks, the instruments are in general associated with celebratory, marshal, nobility, victorious music primarily in the key of D major The association extends from opera the most popular form of entertainment and to keyboard, primarily the Harpsichord composers who wrote music in imitation of this practice.
Rameau in his Treatise on Harmony wrote, “The key of either C, D, or A in the major mode is suitable for songs of mirth and joy. Either F or B-flat is appropriate for tempests, furies, and such subjects. Either G or E is right for both tender and happy songs. Grandeur and magnificence can be expressed by the key of either D, A, or E. The minor mode in the key of either d, g, b, or e is apt for sweetness and gentleness. The key of either c or f minor is suitable for gentleness or laments; f or b-flat minor is appropriate for melancholy songs.” Rameau was an advocate of Equal Temperament, mention by Werkmeister, who used mentioned this as well as Well Temperament. However, in France the mean tone system was more popular as to its key associated affections.
Galileo’s father and other Lutenists advocated ET but the system did not become popular. Although Lutes and Viola da Gamba had moveable frets, the instruments did not as a rule have works composed in remote keys, even by J S Bach. CPE in his Art of Playing The Keyboard referenced a WT system, Kirnberger in the 1770’s writes of WT.
Young’s temperament and its variant in circa 1800 was still WT.
However, what is called ET in the 19th Century isn’t. And for good reason.
The instrument that could accurately measure the frequency for ET tuning doesn’t become available until after the turn of the 20th Century, what was called ET wasn’t WT, but in the 19th it wasn’t accurately spread equally among the 12 notes on a keyboard, as the human ear couldn’t distinguish the pitch and the beats used to set the temperament.
UA-cam has piano tuners who have videos demonstrating the difference. To my knowledge, I am unaware of an International Congress declaration of the universal adoption of ET.
As a foot to WT, unequal or circulating temperaments weren’t abandoned with the posthumous 1707 Werkmeister treatise that advocated such. In fact it wasn’t his first mention. Mean Tone tuning of Organs persisted in some rural areas until mid-19th century.
J S Bach wasn’t the first to compose advocating WT, Mattheson had beat Bach to the punch with Figured Bass lessons in all 24 Keys. JCF Fischer Ariadne Musica 1702 published a set of 20 preludes and fugues for organ 19 different keys in one in a church mode, Bach paid homage by writing a Fugue in the WTC Pt on one of the subjects.
As a foot note, many historically informed keyboard players use Vallotti unequal temperament for playing Bach’s WTC in this tuning or Beethoven. This is highly inappropriate for HIP performance. Why? Outside of direct contact with the cleric in Italy, his 1779 volume 1 publication does not give directions. The second through 4th volumes which contains the directions wasn’t published until 1958. The variant commonly called after its inventor came later. Other than Tartini’s incomplete mentions and Barca’s unpublished in the 18th century and another 20th publication, the temperament’s popularity is at odds with its history.
"And how come this evidence has stayed hidden (where?) all these years while we were all so stupid and believed in equal tempered tuning?"
There's misinformation everywhere and classical music is no exception. The more you learn, the more you will realize how many myths exist in any particular subject.
"Anyway, your theory would not explain why keys would have the same character on "Clavier""
Actually this is not something I agree with, even though it's a very common viewpoint. Every key has its colors even in equal temperament. Unequal temperament creates more variations, obviously. But it is hard to say Bach cared deeply about such a thing when he was transposing his own pieces for mostly practical reasons. The primary reason for unequal temperament is superior harmony.
Piano trios - at least the good ones - are aware of this. Although it's hard to say they always consciously care about it.
Can an untrained ear hear the difference between the SAME piece played in the different keys? Playing a 'happy' piece in one tuning and a 'sad' piece in another tuning doesn't demonstrate--at least to me--the difference in tunings. I've been aware of this issue for a long time but have never heard an actual demonstration of the difference despite being able to say, truthfully, "Ich war in Wien geboren."
Thanks for your question! While I can’t speak for everyone’s experience, the characteristic differences between the various keys in unequal tuning systems vs. equal tuning is normally quite pronounced. I think that most people would hear the differences in a side-by-side comparison.
And to this very day, D minor is the saddest key.
According to Wikipedia, no one knows which exact tuning Bach meant by “well-tempered”. But you present your ideas here as if they are non-controversial. Can you provide a source for your claim? And what about all the historians that have made contrary claims?
"No one knows which exact tuning Bach meant by “well-tempered”"
That's true, we don't know which 'well' temperement he meant exactly. However, we do know that he didn't use the equal temperament...
1:18 AFAIK this is actually not true. While Bach knew of the equal temperament, he did not use it. His "Well-tempered Clavier" was not made to show off the equal temperament but to provide an set of exercises to transpose on sight (a skill expected of good organists at the time). Also, as a nice theoretically satisfying "complete" set.
Apologies if the storytelling caused a bit of confusion… At 1:28, I said “But, this story isn’t accurate,” and then video explains the category of well-temperaments Bach was celebrating with his WTC.