2x10-Gig and 3x2.5-Gig in the palm of your hand! - GW-R86S-U4 Server / Router review
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2023
- This Raspberry Pi sized device packs SO MUCH MORE power and speed than you ever thought possible. An Intel 12th Gen Pentium Silver N6005, Triple Intel i225 2.5Gb NICs, Dual Mellanox 10Gb SFP+, 32GB of DDR4, eMMC storage onboard, along with m.2 NVMe for expansion.
But first... What am I drinking???
Silver Moon Brewing (Bend OR) Lunar Series Dark Side Stout
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Pick up an R86S SBC 10Gb Router here...
R86S-U3 (16GB DDR4 / 32GB eMMC)
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R86S-U4 (32GB DDR4 / 32GB eMMC)
---Amazon: amzn.to/3O8JyNf
---AliExpress: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_DdQ...
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My apologies in advance. I should have tested every single other SBC, router, microserver, and combination of CPU/RAM/Storage in order to give the absolute empirical value to this product. I hope you forgive my subjective opinions on its performance.
Correction: You do not need a PLX chip to do bifurcation. Those are for PCIe switching.
Bifurcation is just using part of the PCIe specification. It only needs to be definable in the motherboard's firmware.
(And physically routed to wherever you want the links...)
Yes and no. Bifurcation support is needed by the host device, in this case the N6005 SOC. As far as I can research, the N6005 doesn't support it, so hardware switching would be required.
@@CraftComputing I think his point is that PLX is not bifurcation, a PLX is a full switch-like controller while bifurcation is a static partitioning of pcie lanes from the host pcie controller (with "host" being the SoC in this case, yes PCIe is relative)
My question is, with a 2230 to 2280 adapter, does the Nvme support wifi cards at all? If so running this in a proxmox or kubernetes cluster with one or two machines (for redundancy) handling the access point vm of your choice may be viable.
@@CraftComputing that said I'm pretty sure all x86 mobile/embedded SoCs can be statically configured to split their pcie lanes in a few useful ways and they are not just locked to use a full x8 interface on everything. Years ago this was also shown on Ark too but now it's only in the NDA hardware manuals stuff. So they should have a "bifurcation" of sorts.
Jeff, I've been watching your content since your review of the MasterBox Lite, and your Chinese x79 shakedown way back in 2017, I just wanted to say I've always loved your style, insight, and guidance when it comes to everything you review. Keep making the great content!
Finally, we got it! Very nice review,the big THANK YOU from my side!!!
Great content as usual... That I always look forward to!
However, it would have been awesome to see how the device looks inside. A quick teardown would add a lot of value to this video
I'm loving mine that David sent me, this thing runs Pfsense 2.7 so well & the SFP+ ports work out of the box nothing to change ! Good video Jeff Weird yours has the barrel DC jack and full HDMI port while mine has the USB-C power port & micro HDMI port.
Pretty nifty little box, and yeah I agree that can art is awesome :)
I've had one of these for a while now and reviewed it, but it's been sitting on my desk since the review. Need to do something with it.
Please,it's high perfromance cute box!
This would be a perfect wireless bridge for my workshop.
Amazing video, Jeff!
I also got pleasantly surprised when my Jasper Lake board booted up with 32GBs of RAM, and according to some reports, 64 gigs also aren't an issue.
It could be that Intel is using a weird definition of the word "supported" that isn't synonymous with "won't even boot with more".
it needs single rank memory. If the 64gb is single rank it could work
Thank you for your LIKE!
@@marcogenovesi8570 Afaik there aren't any single rank 32GB sticks in existence
A common meaning is officially validated. More may work perfectly fine but the manufacturer isn't able to or is unwilling to guarantee correct and reliable and long-term operation. If the limit is directly from Intel it might just be artificial market segmentation tactics.
@@WolfgangsChannel Yes, there are only 4*8GB in the R86S-U4
That is a cute little box.
This Runs Pfsense 2.7Ce very well and the 2 sfp+ ports work flawless !!
Thank you Jason!!
Jeff, just wanted to throw out my support. Always appreciate your videos!
I thank you… I’ve been trying to come up with a cost effective low power 10Gbe promox server option that I can cluster that included sfp+ so I could use DAC rather then rj45 to my aggregation switch. 🎉
That’s a lot of horsepower and bandwidth in a tiny little box! Love it.
Great little box for the price. I have read another review elsewhere about the weak Wifi support and performance. Personally I don't use the built-in Wifi in any router or firewall as the Wifi technologies changes too much in short period of time. Had they include Mini PCI-e connector for Wifi adapters then this wouldn't be an issue in terms of future proofing. I get better performance on a dedicated Wifi AP anyway. Love to see pfsense running on it.
any half-decent wifi you should use for an AP with modern wifi standards would be huge and with a heatsink, and require like 4-6 pigtails for the antennas.
I could see using a fiber run to this with a few mesh WiFi routers with Ethernet backhauling. I know some family members living on some larger properties with multiple spread out structures would love something like this
That isn't really what a mesh network is for.
Mesh is most useful when there are a large number of unreliable nodes/repeaters.
And the network requirements limit good mesh implementations to slower speeds.
I'm not saying you CAN'T make a high-speed mesh with reliable nodes.
But if we are simply talking about what COULD be done, you COULD run fiber to every device and just drag the cable around behind you.
"Mesh" is one of those buzzwords that caught on a few years ago.
It gets stuck in front of all sorts of implementations, whether it is warranted or not.
Sometimes even on non-mesh networks.
Often, when there is no benefit, or even a downside, to using a mesh topology.
@@Prophes0r well in the instance of some of my family members that have dozen of acres of property with detached buildings hundreds of feet apart. They host events and WiFi congestion can be a bit rough on a single AP.
I could think of a couple of uses for a neat little toy like that...
That's a pretty cool piece of kit. I wonder if it will run Untangle/Arista NG Firewall?
This device would be great for nomads running something like PFSense or OpnSense in my opinion.
Strangely you didn't mention, imo, the most compelling use case for this. Get 3+ of them and you have a space efficient, power efficient proxmox cluster with dedicated 10gb for ceph storage. Using it as a cluster for both vms and storage mitigates the issue of having a single nvme. Proxmox can be installed onto the emmc. Dual 10gb makes it so you can either use a dedicated 10gb switch for ceph or a 10gb ring network.
Just started the video and immediately thought these would make an amazing kubernetes cluster.
a three node cluster with 3 drives with ceph? Ehhh no thanks. No I'm not hating on proxmox, I'm hating on Ceph
Or for about half the price 3 Lenovo m720q with a dual port connentx-3.
You are totally right about it!!
I'd love to see an ultra-low-power CPU with 16+ lanes of PCIe even if the CPU itself wasn't any faster. It'd allow consolidation of so many devices onto a low-power platform. As-is, it's hard to get 10G SFP+ and high-speed NVMe drives on the same system, much less the 3x2.5G NICs. I imagine it's why they put wifi through SDIO (and presumably USB?).
However, even if you can't max out line rate to every connected device, it's still the easiest drop-in solution for someone looking to lay a 10G network. And it's a great option for that use case to keep costs down while we're waiting for ISPs and hardware to advance.
Intel's refusal to support AP mode on anything but 2.4G has been a long-standing issue, and was huge in pushing me towards dedicated APs. I'm not sure if the 2.4G support will even stick around. It definitely sucks.
Thanks!
I wanted to buy your pint sized glasses but can't stand the conical ones, always love the ones like the one you had in yotr hand while shooting 😊
Those price... Jesus Christ. How do such prices arise? Material costs hardly. Development costs... I don't have the feeling that it justifies that either.
A) All metal chassis and enclosure
B) An N6005-based mini PC barebones runs between $200 and $235. Add in 32GB of soldered memory, eMMC, etc, you can easily expect that to jump to a $350 price point.
C) ConnectX-3 on a custom PCB. A standard PCIe dual-port card runs $110 new. I can imagine a custom solution like this being around $150 to implement for a retail product.
D) Triple Intel i225 2.5Gb chips. A standalone PCIe card runs at least $25ea, and that's without the engineering to include it on the same PCB as the N6005 NUC.
That's $575, just based on standalone hardware you could purchase. Integrating that all into this one package at $460... pretty impressive.
@@CraftComputing afaik the connectx3 is a server mezzanine, they did a pretty ingenious adapter with ribbons to connect it to the main board. Saw that on another review
Make it slightly larger, socket the ram and use cheaper commodity ram instead of a future limited device.
Afaik the "people's PLX" market has been taken over by Asmedia. For example the Asustor flash-only nas that Jeff Gerling reviewed recently is using a bunch of their PLX to give like 8 NVME slots a similar low end Intel embedded thingy.
Also afaik most chinacards that let you install multiple nvme drives without bifurcation are also using asmedia PLX.
The fastest they do is pcie 3.0 PLX chips at the moment so it's not that bad
im so sick of every small computer not having an intel eth chipset. I'm really excited to see one that has an intel chipset.
The memory spec on these chips is a little weird. They absolutely DO support 32GB RAM, as long as you use single-rank 1Rx8 memory. They probably only list 16GB maximum capacity because 8GB stick are guaranteed to be single-rank.
Yeah, Intel's ARC page does have a note about 16GB being the max in 'most configs' but doesn't offer much info beyond that. Single rank was my guess as well.
@@CraftComputing To be fair, anyone who needs more than 16GB for this kind of appliance should get one with a better CPU anyway.
@@phawxhunter not really. A NAS for instance would benefit greatly from having 32GB RAM, not so much from a faster CPU that would not get used and draw twice as much power.
Since you need your daily dose of hate, I'll tell you that this is not really a review it's more of an unboxing and an opinion piece about it.
Yes I'm 100% on board if you say this thing does not really deserve more than this, it's neat, it's niche, there is no need to get too deep into it.
Would have appreciated a teardown tho, give us some cheap hardware pron at least
@CraftComputing can you perhaps recommend or point in the direction of something similar hardware spec with maybe 1 sfp+ and a gbe rj45…. Don’t really need the others just want to buy 2 and create a promox cluster for as cheap as I can
this
commenting in case there's a reply
Curious if it routes at 10Gbps, and how it performs with a basic pfSense rule set. I’m guessing it will struggle to maintain 4Gbps.
Depends on what you're doing. Simple route/single destination, this can likely handle line rate. Complex rules, L3, etc, yeah, it's going to struggle a bit more.
Solid intro.
@CraftComputing Beer... Like a really dark brown ale?
Hi could you do some dpu content in the future if possible
What's its routing/VPN/firewall/IDS performance like?
According to the intel spec sheet for the pentium silver n60005 the max memory this processor can support is 16gb, does it just not use the other 16gb?
That data is in the book, not for real！ We have made the MB solution with 32GB RAM.
I think this would have been great to have in my FIRST Robotics/Tech Challenge Days. A little micro server that can handle a full sized event. Expensive but the portability and connectivity offset that for what it can do.
PLS talk about PLX chips on ur next video . tnx
Can you use the Wi-Fi antenna as access point or would you suggest the option without Wi-Fi and a separate access point to use this thing as a home router?
Did you watch the video? It's mentioned in the video.
Have you tried VYOS on it?
I still wonder if you can put a XGS PON SFP+ module and a 10gbe-SR SFP+ in it and it will work.
We tried it with a DEC750 OPNsense, and as advertised that did not work.
I know not everyone has 2gbe internet, but something like this, if it works would be darn simple. buy and run.
As a "router review" I find the video quite lacking, as the only speed test presented seems to be between the device itself and another on the same network, with no actual routing involved. Running the device in a real world scenario would add significant overhead and load on the CPU (either from routing tables, firewall rules, PPPoE connections, etc) which could severely bottleneck the 10Gbps links. System performance data like what is presented on the opnsense shop pages for DEC devices would be appreciated.
Hope you can continue to improve for the future.
hi, I have HP EliteDesk 800 G4 Mini PC i7-8700
is it possible to add Tesla M40 as eGPU and use it as vGPU for several VMs in proxmox.
I powered the mini pc using solar and battery
I want to keep all power in DC including power for eGPU.
I have a plan on how to power all the devices in DC to save my battery but I have no idea whether eGPU works for vGPU.
Thanks
would untangle or sophos work on this?
I really wish I could get even just the exchange difference between the price you said it was, and CAD. As is, to order the 16GB RAM version is almost $900 CAD.
Did you check the AliExpress link? They're quite a bit cheaper over there.
I've heard of many Canadians crossing the boarder to purchase electronics on the cheap and snagging a vacation. Or just using a freight forwarder/trusted friend
@@CraftComputing I noticed the about $200cad difference. I think it'd make a nice replacement for a pi-hole and more type server.
This is so cool
Odd that the non Wi-Fi variants only have the N5105. I like the box but don't want the Wi-Fi as I wouldn't use it but would prefer the N6005 chip as it's slightly faster burst clock speed at 3.3Ghz v 2.9Ghz. The iGPU difference's don't matter if I was running pfSense on it.
That's the reason we updated a new model R86S-N with DIY NVME kit!
One thing I feel is lacking, is a locking 12V DC jacket.
I hadn't even consider that, but excellent point.
@@CraftComputing Hi Jeff,we are testing the samples with screw lock adaptors,good point!
What about a router only model running to a wifi access point?
Ceph cluster node?
Would be it a good machine to put a m.2 to sata adapter on that 2280 port, to have five 8TB hdds in Raid5 and use it as a hybrid machine with NAS/Router/Firewall/Media-Center roles?
The idea would be using those 32GB ram as caching for 32TB of HDDs, and the spare performance as a Moonlight GameStream client and light webpages server on my living room.
Well, I think you are talking about the NEW 1U rack router with all the ports and fuctions
@@gowinfanless I don't know wich one is this 1U you are referring. I was trying to find a cheap machine to use as a media center that would also control my home network, host some access to it and have a bunch of disks for backups of my machines. Basically something with video output, massive hdd and good networking, but no care for stellar performance.
There's are two options, one with Intel C3808 and another one with Intel N100,both are cheap machine .We are going to launch them all @@Yamagatabr
@@Yamagatabr I believe there’s a rack mount version of the R86S.
When's the drinks review channel starting? Can you call it Craft Drunk? I'd watch every review, would probably do better in yt shorts.
I apparently missed a controversy 😅
I see tiny PC , I click , I am simple man
Will be decent PVE host with an i5-7 and 64 ram for that price. Now... not so much.
Computers and alcohol. I love this channel already
* Orange pi 5 plus has entered the chat
I have that in front of me right now on my desk. Definitely a solid device so far.
@@CraftComputing Indeed it is! But why do you still prefer non-arm-related devices, if you don't mind me asking? Just curious since I (also) got an arm device right beside me (a Rpi 4, for instance -- but planning to get me an opi5 plus as well) and I'm (seriously) thinking of using it as my main PC for daily/hobbyist tasks.
...unless you use it for plex/pfsense/any other x86_64-related known piece of software I might not be aware about... then feel free to call me dum instead.
Me reviewing a non-ARM device doesn't mean I prefer them. My view on the RPi as a home server appliance was when they were priced at nearly $130ea, x86 made much more sense. But that was my viewpoint for that specific pricepoint in that specific use case.
@@CraftComputing There is quite a lot of non-arm devices you reviewed (outside of this one) -- which (logically) indicates a personal preference. Other than that, I do agree that rpi 4s arent reliable enough for some "serious" self-hosting shenanigans.
I've got a VisionFive 2 and Orange Pi 5+ on my desk right now. Again, just because I review or don't review an item doesn't mean I have a preference one way or the other.
Wonder how will it do with PFSense/OPNsense?
he tested in on pfsense when he did the iperf
That's not a bad wee unit for the price 🤔
What do you mean by "up to 10km"? There's 100+km sfp+ optics, are you implying those don't work with this device?
Mellanox only officially lists LR optics (10km) on their compatibility charts. YMMV with ER (40km) or ZR (80km) optics, as I've only ever seen those used in switches.
Can the processor handle 10GbE network?
100% YES
You read that file transfer speed wrong… it was 700-800mbps, not 5 gig… that was remaining
If only it had a 5G modern slot..Had to go with the Lattepanda Sigma 32GB model.
Heh, I'm reviewing that right now as well.
I think you are talikng about another new model named portable 5G CPE with battery inside
If only it didnt have the SFP+ Wish it was copper 10Gbe. 10GBe Copper SFP+ run at the temperature of the sun.
You mentioned that Broadcom has a monopoly on PLX (PCI Express) switches. Might I turn your attention to ASMedia??? they have a number of PLX chips themselves, in fact this is how AMD managed to get their chipsets made. ASMedia just bundles their PLX chip along with a SATA controller and USB controller into a single chip.
ASMedia PLX chips are not as good as Broadcom i will admit that, but you do have options
Asmedia PLX are the ones running more or less all the "no bifurcation nvme adapter" cards you can get from china sellers, which are expensive but still in the "can buy it without robbing a bank" range. So yeah Asmedia is taking up the mike that Broadcomm dropped years ago.
I wouldn't mind a deep dive in the nvme ChinaCards
@@marcogenovesi8570 I am doing some testing in both ASMEDIA and broadcom powered m.2 cards to see the difference. ASMEDIA powered ones though usually only are gen 2 x8 to the host meaning they are slower than the broadcom offerings
Where would I begin learning what I need to learn to understand what he's saying?
I wonder what the UEFI firmware is like
Very cool, but too expensive.
just when you thought it was safe to enter the water
Intel’s NUC computers are super compact, upgradable, and even powerful - but now, they’re being discontinued. ServeTheHome first reported that Intel is giving up on the personal computer business and will no longer be making its cute small form factor PCs.
they are doing all they can to ban fun havers
That doesn't mean their low-volt CPUs are leaving the market. Just Intel won't be directly selling NUCs anymore. They did the same thing with motherboards 12+ years ago and no one really ever noticed.
We could really use something that can do hostap, now that PC Engines is leaving the market
Day after posting they jacked the price up. Scumbag move on them.
Can this thing run ESXi out of the box?
The 10gbit card is Connectx-3 so it does not work in esxi 7 and later. The rest should work
@@marcogenovesi8570 That's to bad, it would be great if I could use such a small machine for my ESXi farm. Still looking for a good minipc to host my VM's.
You should look at the new R86S-N models then. Those have replaced the 10G Mellanox NIC with a custom one based on the Intel 82599ES chip. Note however that the Intel chip needs 8 lanes of PCI-E 2.0 speeds but only gets 4 lanes, so it effectively gets bandwidth starved somewhat. That was not an issue with the ConnectX-3, which is a PCI-E 3.0 x4 card.
Essentially, ESXi's very limited hardware support sadly made the new devices worse for everyone else. ☹️
@@blunden2 Great tip, but I agree that ESXi has poor support on hardware. It's to bad because the product itself is great!
Received one unit with one failed sfp port. 😅QC…
Unfortunately, looks like I may have to RMA mine for a dead CX-3 card. Entire device just disappeared after a hard lockup.
This but as a simple switch would be killer.
This could be the best router.
This but with an i3 n305 plz
There is one, but with a different 10G NIC. Look at the R86S-N.
@@blunden2 i only find it with a n5105
@@aemonblackfyre4159 We have luanched the NEW R86S-N series with Intel N100 and i3-N305 CPU
I want you one.
Its actually 540 bucks fool but they got 5700x or the dame thing by different brands
Fantastic video! Ignore the hate, it can be a waste of time. Having a take at all on these niche products is still very helpful!
FIRST AGAIN!
But in all seriousness, this looks unreal for for home networking porpoises.
"he shouted at his girlfriend." "Yeah, no shit." she replied as she noded, unsurprized once again.
Did other reviewers review it properly though?
Maybe rewatch the first four minutes where I'm praising their methodology, and simply calling for MORE data to be available for budget gamers.
@@CraftComputing lmao you actually took the bait
I don't know you, and sarcasm rarely translates through text.
No, no they clearly didn't.
why ADs for the russian hacktool flipper? its made in rus
Oh no! And right next to the Chinese Router too!
wtf makes it "russian"? It's made in china by a US company
Your take on the 4060 is dog water. All the evidence points to the 4060 as nvidia is selling it, was actually meant to be the 4050.
Nine out of ten gamers aren’t going to be awestruck by nvidia getting 1 for 1 performance with last generation’s card and using less power.
I think anyone defending nvidia, yourself included, is deluded. They have the ability to charge whatever they want right now and not give a single frick about selling gaming GPUs because of the AI boom. nvidia would rather sell the same silicon at a huge markup and label it “AI” than sell affordable GPUs to the consumers that helped build their empire. The pricing, the models and the performance are a slap in the face to their most rabid loyalists.
Please man….don’t defend nvidia. Instead, join the *MAJORITY* in telling nvidia that we want 25+% per generation uplifts in rasterization and we don’t want to pay a $100 to $200 premium just for frame generation. It’s not worth that…like…at all.
Sir, this is a Wendy's.
@@CraftComputing lol. I know. I had to leave it here because there were too many comments on the actual video, and you may not respond to comments on it anymore. Too little, too late.
Lol, also, this one caught my eye as I’m 25 years in the networking field. I find your content to be enjoyable, relevant and I kinda geek out in similar ways in my own lab at home. ;-)
I am now kinda confused between the ultimate router suggested by @TechnoTim and this....!!!! 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
I will invite Tim to review the R86S too