The purpose of the Sonic Boost formula
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- With 3D Sonic at a once again tentative frontier thanks to the lukewarm reception of Sonic Forces, the boost formula debuting in Sonic Unleashed and further explored in Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations may very well be on it's last leg after it's 10 year run.
In the wake of this possibility, I wanted to discuss the role it has served in the franchise thus far and where Sonic Team could take it going forward.
Hashimoto's GDC video:
• Making of Sonic Unleashed
I think you really hit the nail on the head of why I like Unleashed levels more than Generations levels. Unleashed knew what it was trying to be and unapologetically did that well, whereas Gens was trying to have the boost gameplay of Unleashed while simultaneously having the platforming that made the Classics/Adventure gameplay. So it ends up feeling like a weird/jarring mix of both where the boosting/fast sections aren't as fun as Unleashed, and the platforming sections aren't as fun as the Classics/Adventure games.
As for separating the boost into its own spin-off, I don't believe that's necessary, especially when we have a character like Shadow just lying around. This could be the perfect opportunity to have games with both Sonic and Shadow playable, with the Sonic levels utilizing the boost gameplay and Shadow bringing Adventure gameplay to the current generation of gaming, since we haven't seen it attempted in over a decade. It'd be interesting to see a game like that, where we could have a beautiful original locale and boost through it in one stage, and then use the spindash and platform though it in another stage. Anyway great video!
premydaremy would you ever want mach speed sections from 06 to replace boost formula ? (As a set piece)
@@onurbuken3641 that's one really hard question right there and Sonic team has clearly not found the answer yet
Well I'm the type of guy that thinks the characters that should be in sonic games are himself, tails, and knuckles. Other characters should be villains, whether that be old or new. I was never a fan of sonic trying to be a weird story driven game like final fantasy or something. Keeping the main cast small and the story simple is good imo. Sonic 3 and knuckles has the perfect sonic story. Shadow is the perfect villain character in my opinion. Wario to mario, bass to megaman type of character. He'd be good for boss fights but to have him playable would be unnecessary.
@premydaremy
That would just add the characters into the split of what the fanbase want from 3D Sonic. The people who want Adventure would hate Sonic and the people who want Boost would hate Shadow. Because the Werehog was nothing like what people wanted from Sonic, people hate the very concept of the Werehog. And because Classic Sonic in Gens and Forces (Forces more so) aren't much like how he was in his Classic games, people hate the idea of Classic in another Modern Sonic game. Plus the split gameplay styles are part of the reason why Sonic games as a whole usually feel underdeveloped not fully pleasing anyone it's trying to please. Multiple characters in Sonic games should adhere to the same formula with different abilities/objectives to set them apart. Like Knuckles gameplay having more emphasis on combat/exploration-based objectives for example, while also still being able to play any character we want in Sonic's traditional reach the goal objective based levels, using their different abilities to spice up how we navigate the same levels designed for Sonic.
Also FYI Yung Wun, Shadow technically isn't a villain. He never was. He's always been an anti-hero/neutral character since his debut, only working with Eggman to ultimately fulfill his own desire, which wasn't inherently evil.
Don't forget Blaze (ya know, Rush)
Unleashed is the only "boost" game I like. I remember when it came out, I was mind blown, and I played both the PS3 and PS2 versions of the game. It was a game literally made for pure speedrunning, and I loved it. After Unleashed was made, Sega completely watered down everything it had made for itself with Colors and Generations. Eventually the "boost" playstyle was stretched so thin that we got a game like Forces, where Sega had absolutely no idea what made playing the game great. As much as I love Unleashed, I don't want another "boost" game because of that reason. I want another Adventure game.
Let me guess. Your a CooperCastille fan and have seen his perpective vids
@@Chase-mp9zt who the hell is CooperCasttille? This is my own view and opinion.
They should make a Sonic Adventure reimagining/remake, then SA3
Agreed.
Maybe we need an Adventure style Sonic game, with a bit of Sonic Lost World's parkour system (though a bit more refined), as well as mach speed sections that allow you to boost via Special Stages?
While I do think that Unleashed provides a more pure experience, I dont think that the boost formula should need to throw away what Generations was trying to do despite the game having to make compromises. I say this as I believe Generations did alot more to allow to the player to utilize the boost mechanic in more experimental and interesting ways. Take Seaside Hill for example. You mentioned that staged was diluted due to it needing to fit the constraints of the boost mechanic. However, I actually think its one of the best stages in the game in part because most of the stage revolves around strategically using the boost along with all of your other tools to your advantage. For example in the beginning of the stage, you come across three passage ways with each of them leading to a different portion of the 2D section that comes after it. You could simply choose one pathway and go from there. However, theres another route hidden away that Sonic can use to bypass the 2D section previously mentioned. To do so, you need boost on the water to the right of the pathways and be able to drift under the loops that you would've used normally. PuIl that off and if you have enough boost to make it, there's a cannon that will take you straight to the end of the 2D section cutting out a decent portion of your run time. Almost every stage aside from Wisp Planet (somewhat) have several shortcuts like these that while take some time to master are satisfying to accomplish BECAUSE of the boost mechanic, not in spite of it. Speed Highway allows you hop on the helicopter in the beginning of the stage if you properly time your boost and can drift boost through a shortcut after the police chase set piece.There are more examples but brevity sake I just want to say that I really dont believe that Generations needs to be a one time thing. That the level design present can never work in that style. Even if there are hindrances such as sluggish controls and iffy level designs choices, there are very clear highs in that game that fully display the potential that was there. Which is why I really want SEGA to stop giving Kishimoto these projects and allow Hiroshi Miyamoto another chance to improve on what hes built upon rather than it all being stripped down and forgotten.
Also concerning your point about Sonic Team focusing on making two seperate game I think a better idea would to relagate the adventure(or new) and boost styles to two different characters. Or in other words have Sonic use whatever new mechanics they come up with and have Shadow retain the boost mechanic. This way the development team wont be stretched thin as much, the brand identity wont be further fractured and it'll satisfy fans of both shadow himself and the boost formula. Thats just my opinion though.
THANKS FOR YOUR POST! I find a real shame that people downplay the good things Generations did in terms of improving the Boost formula. I'm right now replaying the game and I'm nothing short of amazed on how good the level design is. The parts where you have to use the boost strategically in order to reach certain areas and slowing down in order to not miss platforming (which can be cleared with a air dash and boost if you are fast enough).
The game might not be perfect, but as it is, it lead to a lot of potential of furthering improving boost.
I just realized the Boost fomula is almost like a natural evolution of the 06 Mach Speed sections
I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't want the boost to go away, but here's my thoughts on your proposal.
The fun, I at least, get from the boost games is mastering the levels and going for the best time. This in essence is similar to arcade styled games. However, with your proposal and what I got for it, it sounds like you want the entire game to be on rails. I think having it styled like this takes away user input, and thus takes away the amount of satisfaction you get when beating a level. I absolutely agree on the cinematic elements. Sonic and setpieces have always been a highlight of these games for me, and was something Sonic Forces severely lacked other than those "QTEs". It's not a bad proposal, but I just think making it entirely on rails like how you described with the bosses just isn't the way to go with it.
Good video btw! 👍
I'm thinking that was kinda the point. To make it something a lot less time consuming and costly to develop as a side gameplay style for Spin Off games. Whereas the main series games can go for something a bit more open and Adventure-like. It makes sense, when you think about it. Especially since the janky platforming of the Boost games really wasn't one of its high points at all.
*+TWIP* That's the thing though, the boost formula as a whole is such an arcade style game, there's not much depth when it comes to the gameplay style as a whole. The boost formula is nothing but a glorified racing game, so it has to be entirely on-rails. Especially when its only appeal is going fast, linear level design is exactly what the boost formula has to abide by. Naturally, that gets stale after repeated playthroughs. That alone is why I find myself playing the Adventure formula games and even Lost World far more than any of the boost formula games. There's more to the former games in terms of gameplay that make me want to play them. As Monkey D. "Straw Hat" Luffy alluded to, the boost formula would work better for racing games where they're meant to be played in quick spurts. The main series games on the other hand need to stick to the platform genre. In other words, Sonic Team needs to go back to the Adventure formula or create a gameplay style that sticks to the core values of a platformer since that is what Sonic is established to be.
I could see this working however there are some things to question. First: Whoever makes the next sonic game, can they do it properly?
Second: If boost was to become an on rails game what would it cost? and no i'm not talking moneywise
Thirdly: If adventure style games where to come back which it seems at this point everyone in their mums wants (personally I'm not all abord but minority is minority) Would these adventure games "Feel right"? Because let's be honest here if you're gonna make an open stage with sonic running at a moderate speed and him abusing the spindash like with *every single adventure game* because it seems nobody wants SA2, Everyone still praises SA1 and lost world is barley considered a game to the bigger "What sonic should be" talkers.
@@bebopknux5857
There's got to be changes to the formula that actually improve it, of course.
Hey here found two of my favorite UA-camrs
I don't want to rush you, but when's your next video coming out? It's been almost a year.
I would love to tell you soon, but I'm in the thick of my final Uni year, and this channel isn't something I currently have time to focus on at the moment, and won't be at least until summer.
I have a script for a video I wanted to have up here over last summer but unfortunately I couldn't get it to a satisfactory point quick enough before things got busy again.
I'm glad there are people who are still interested my content and I thank you for putting up with my lack of consistency, after this academic year I'm a free agent so things should start to pick up from there on.
@@embani Thanks for replying to my comment and I'm also glad to hear that you still have plans to upload to this channel!
@@embani your back and ok few I always get worried when a youtube disappears for a long time I'm glad to see you're doing fine take as much time as you need but whenever you're video comes I'm looking forward to it.
@@embani goodluck man
Em. Bani. I know this is obvious but take your time,no rush
Huh, weird. Ive never really seen someone defend the Storybook series and do it in a way that actually makes sense. Id be really interested in seeing you talk more about those games honestly. I think for what they are they do a really good job, and i kinda like the "elseworld" thing they have going on. Same reason i kinda like Sonic Riders (not for the gameplay, but everything else in it i quite like).
I love those games. Even with the hassles. I feel they hit the head on the characterization of sonic.
@@dapperblookanimations226 You know what honestly I agree with that. Say what you want about their stories the characters were pretty well portrayed. They gave us more characterisation for the most characters than any modern sonic game probably since SA2. Can argue 06 but the characters felt hollow in that.
@@Natboy129 Exactly. I actually enjoyed the stories the games told. I like the characters and I think this is Sonic at his best. It feels like the natural progression of his character. He's still Sonic but a bit more mature. Heck I also loved the clash of ideologies in black knight. We see how Sonic feels and how far he goes for it.
they were really good from an art perspective, it's only the gameplay that sucked
@@mvnkycheez id argue i enjoyed black knight a fair bit and that it really just needs experimentation or inspiration from the wider scope of the boost
secret rings is irredeemable however
Your videos have such a, how do you say it?
A strong ａｓｔｈｅｔｉｃ to them, it almost feels like drugs. Hits hard.
It's Vaporwave, an appropriation of the 1980s and 1990s.
You're right. I really like it, I should assume you do too. =)
Gotta have that lofi music, profesional voice and old aesthetic
An Em. Bani. upload!? We've been blessed!
Really interesting take on how the boost formula should be handled! Personally, I've always thought that the boost formula would be a great fit for a foot-racing game (more akin to Sonic R, as opposed to Sonic All-Stars Racing and Team Sonic Racing), seeing as the controls and level design in Generations and Unleashed are a lot like what you'd see in a racing game. Linearity and lack of platforming wouldn't be a huge issue (since it wouldn't be a platforming-focused game) and foot-racing would be pretty unique, even among more popular series like Mario Kart and F-Zero.
The closest example I can give of this sort of gameplay in action would be the Shadow rival fight in Generations, where you have to race against Shadow on a looping circuit. It's got a few alternate paths and gimmicks like rail grinding to keep things interesting. For added spectacle, it could even draw some elements from the Riders series, which threw in all kinds of setpieces in its levels.
Anyways, those are just my thoughts. Nice video as always!
Ugghhhh Fucking hated the Shadow fight in Generations. So awkward to control, and on-rail running needs to die.
But I agree on making the Boost a racing spin-off. I would handle it more like Adventure Packs DLCs for Unleashed did, at least the more speed oriented stages. While yes, taking cues from the Riders and Storybooks.
I honestly feel out of all the battles on Generations, the Sonic and Shadow rivalry was arguably the best way it was handled
This is actually kinda what I've been thinking for quite some time now, personally I've never cared much for the Boost gameplay but I can't deny that it feels very "Sonic" and to just throw that away for a return to the Adventure formula... well I'd prefer that to the Adventure formula never returning but that's just me being subjective, Jimsterling made a video awhile back called the "Perfect Pasta Sauce" which illustrates that there is no one perfect sauce, people's preferences are far too broad for that, and if Sonic team continues trying to please everyone all at once in the same game they're gonna continue not fully pleasing anyone, some fans of Adventure are never going to like the Boost, and some fans of the Boost are never going to like Adventure, and then there's 2D... and none of us are wrong for liking the Sonic games that we like, but if all of us are to continue enjoying Sonic then Boost, Adventure, and 2D need to coexist in different sub-series all under the wide umbrella of Sonic.
Oh yeah and Sonic Rush is like Boost but in 2D right? Make that 4 sub-series I guess :p
Well Boost gameplay includes 2D sections, so it's pretty much carried over.
That's part of the problem, if you're a fan of boosting then you might find the 2D sections boring, it's the same problem with the treasure hunting stages in Adventure 2, sure you might enjoy treasure hunting but it probably isn't the reason you bought a Sonic game, so if you don't like treasure hunting (or 2D in the modern games) too bad, you're forced to go through those sections weather you like them or not, that's part of the brilliance of games like S3K, it caters to fans of treasure hunting and dashing to the end of the stage without forcing either one on the player.
Renigade68 but... I like the 2D sections in boost games? Aside from forces
Why do you hate Adventure? I've never heard anyone explain why other than they hate it on principal.
2:23 I appreciate the needless effort you put in to make that "Boost to Win" logo. Cracks me up every time
Great analysis! Surprised I didn't see this sooner.
in short: its a good style for a spin-off but not for the main serie titles. I agree.
The boost formula feel like a modern version of SegaSonic for arcade.
If SEGA still wants to continue with the Boost Formula, I’d think the best solution would be to make it just like the Sonic Advance 2 Boost, as in Sonic will go faster with the more rings you collect and how long you can keep up the pace without stopping or getting damaged, plus from developing your own playing skills and your memorisation of the Stages at hand.
So something like the bumper engine?
@@evikotsidimou7373 but it would be good unlike the bumper engine
Callum Sparrow you know what...as a huge boost fan...that does sound pretty interesting
@@Treyshellz but the bumper engine IS good
@@games_on_phone89 I don't think so
I'd say that "pitch" was objectively brilliant, and conveys true understanding of the roots of Sonic and the intricacies of its many elements that cater to its gameplay, in many different Sonic games. This is far less subjective than most introspections of the series of games, and puts more ideas and UNDERSTANDING to light (of how Sonic actually works, as well as what it aspired)
Unleashed is hands down my favorite sonic game. In my eyes, it feels, looks, and sounds the best of any game to come before or after it. It’s also just fun as hell
You know, I still love colors, but unleashed has dethroned that as my favorite sonic game
even though this was 6 months ago, everything was well said and so organized
What could’ve changed in 6 months?
Awesome! Glad to see you drop another video after a while. Totally unexpected! :D You pretty much described why I feel that Unleashed has the best utilisation of the boost as it really flows well and it has a great transition between 2D and 3D perspectives. It flowed a lot better than Generations and I totally agree that the Storybook games had great presentation cues and cinematic set pieces that would really be great to see incorporated into the main games. Seeing the characters surfing through lava, Sonic flying a magic carpet and riding through cannons on a pirate ship. Those are the kind of thrills we need in more Sonic games. Bursting with personality and energy which drives the player forward.
This is superb. I agree that I'd like to go for a more versatile playstyle, something perhaps more akin to adventure. But what if perhaps the boost were incorporated as a very occasional powerup? With large environments that could work!
The thing that I have noticed is that this playstyle doesn't accommodate most of the other Sonic characters. The only ones I could see working in the boost are fast characters like Shadow, Blaze, Espio, and Metal Sonic. All 4 of these guys have been very good at being Sonic model swaps. Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, Omega, Silver, Amy etc have abilities that would conflict with the boosts design such as flight, exploration, combat, climbing, and well platforming. There would be no reason to fly because the boost is rarely interested in going up when it isn't a 2D segment and the same can be said for climbing. There is no reason for exploration as you have made pretty obvious by now and there is no reason for any combat system because the enemies can be plowed through with the boost. The boost in general was created to disassociate the series from the adventure style so people wouldn't mock it for being compared to Sonic 06 and likewise was designed so that only Sonic was playable so the other characters wouldn't dare steal his spotlight. To give up on these other characters is not only to give up on creative writing but to also give up on unique game-play possibilities. SEGA needs to return to Sonic 06s vision and execute it properly, it had guts, not a lot of brains but plenty of guts.
Espio and boost? How?
@@mep6302 Espio is a speed type character. Technically Amy could ideally also work in a boost game since she's always running after Sonic. She was only slow in Adventure and was sped up after the advance series.
facts but it doesnt have to be that way as a kid i was suprised tail wasnt in the 3d boost games i thought boost games where is you took a 2d sonic level and turned it 3d with diffrnt paths and everything but instead i found out its just a straight road boost could be better if sonic boost didnt take you from point a to b in seconds and had more layers and teirs to levels
Great video as always! I definitely think we need some kind of "reinvention" of 3D Sonic some time soon.
I've been craving a Sonic discussion video. Thank you Em. Bani. for delivering.
unleashed is my favorite boost game. not necessarily because its flawless or because it has great platforming, but because when you attempt to speed run the game it truly feels like you have the full power of sonic in an obstacle course.
i know that the speed you can achieve in speed runs isn't intended, but it gives a whole new life to the game and i can never put it down when i start playing it.
Hot damn we've missed you!
I honestly believe that Sonic Unleashed is the definitive boost experience, because that game was founded on it and was designed to be the first to do it. Sonic Generations slammed the platforming in there and it quite frankly persistently interrupted the flow of the game. This problem with platforming isn't about that fact that it exists in a boost formula game, but rather how it's utilized in a boost formula game along with when it should actually become playable...just like how combat used to be properly used in Sonic games...........wait combat? There used to be combat?
Yeah, remember back during Adventure formula from the early 3D days of Sonic Adventure all the way to Sonic 06, Sonic was broken up into 3 parts...platforming, speed, and combat. Sonic used to have 3 parts but now it's just 2 which would be platforming and boost. Combat used to be important because it was a chance for Sonic and any other viable character to demonstrate how they can take on an army, mainly Eggman's army along with other worthy adversaries like G.U.N., The Black Arms, and Iblis Monsters. Instead of ramming through the enemies and killing them mostly in one hit, back during the adventure era, mainly developed because of Sonic Heroes heavy sense of combat, these older Sonic games had it to where the player would have to calculate, prioritize their attacks, and carefully plan how they were actually going to attack enemies. It used to be extremely engaging in this area. Nowadays, combat is limited to mindlessly boosting straight into enemies or tapping the homing attack button without thinking much and you simply just win.
For strong future reference, Sega needs to remember how to combine platforming, speed, and combat together without them without interfering with one another. Bringing back up Sonic Unleashed again, I honestly believe any platforming sections in that game worked better than Generations simply because they were mostly speed based platforming. There was jumping up and down, but the game kept the speed going that was gained from an earlier section where the player earned his/her momentum by boosting, so platforming felt like a high speed hop scotch rather than a tedious dragged out jump on one platform at a time like Generations forced the player to do. Platforming needs to have speed otherwise it will ruin the game's sense of momentum.
In regards to combat, I'm going to get more picky about the controls. In the boosting games Sonic feels like a heavy tank that's stiff to move whenever he's in a tight space because it only seems like he wants to move in a straight line. In the Adventure age, however, Sonic and his friends moved fluidly. They stopped on a dime, could turn left and right almost instantly, and could transition from one state to the next which made well for combat because good movement is needed when you are fighting in a chess game. The modern boost games don't allow for this fluid motion, and also treat combat as an easy brief encounter.
So in short here's what probably needs to be done. Whenever there's platforming it needs to feel fast. Whenever there's combat, which needs to return by the way, it needs to be tactical, interesting, and highly engaging like back in the old days like Sonic Heroes. Whenever there's speed that's when boosting can become viable, and just to make sure the 'boost to win' phrase is not used even in these sections just make sure there's plenty of obstacles to dodge like Sonic 06's mach speed sections.
I love everything about your content. It’s not just that you discuss Sonic, your editing and use of music contributes towards your videos being a work of art. I remember when I first came across your channel, seeing the Adventure vs Boost video over two years ago! I just want to let you know that we miss your videos. I wish you the best.
I love and enjoy this break down of the boost gameplay, I can honestly say, makes me very happy. I've always had a weird love/hate relationship with the boost but seeing this video is making me appreciate it a little more
Secret Rings does have level design based on corridors densely packed with obstacles with setpieces to string them together. It's take on the boost was unwieldy but Time Break was a really cool idea. It had some very creative level design as well.
I grew up with the adventure games so by no means would I say I do not want them to return. However the boost games specifically unleashed and generations are the most fun I've ever had playing sonic games.
You hit the nail on the head when it came to the catharsis of being able to do what you saw sonic do to the extremes we see in cutscenes in prior games. The gameplay loop of memorization and execution=speedier results was very rewarding to me with the sprawling level design of the aforementioned games especially unleashed. I just want boost games to continue, if they continue, by going back to its unleashed routes instead of trying to cater to platformer loyalists.
I think the better option as to not alienate these players is do the same that is being done for 2d fans. Create a new pillar of sonic games where sonic and friends play explicitly like they did in the adventure era and let the boost games do what they do best instead of being pulled in many different directions. Classic, adventure and boost games. Like mario has 2d, sandbox 3d and linear 3d for his pillars of games. I truly feel like the boost gameplay offers something unique to sonic and perfectly encapsulates the character and I'd hate to see it just forgotten.
I get what you’re saying about the platforming in the boost games, but I don’t think a fully on rails game is the way to go. Imo we should get a game like Gens, except the platforming isn’t as blocky/choppy. The other pathways should be accessed through proper use of the boost + jumps. I can’t think of the best example rn, but take the beginning of modern Chemical Plant. It’s slopes as well as the boost and well timed jumps allow you to reach the other 2 pathways in the background which gives access to different pathways. Or even look at seaside hill. I understand what you mean about it being restricted, but it’s still an incredibly open level with lots of pathways, and while yes the platforming can feel weird at times, it’s usually not *too* bad. I’d really like to see a game do something like those 2 while expanding on the ideas you mentioned, without becoming a completely linear game. But that’s just my opinion.
Stylish Action Arcade Based game and comparison to Secret Rings? Did I make this video? Are you me? I thought I thought I was the only one thinking like this.....
You've stated the main reason I couldn't bring myself to enjoy this gameplay style. While I agree Unleashed did it perfectly (with Generations refining some of the mechanics like drifting) the fact that the game forces any sort of platforming elements kills the enjoyment factor. Sonic feels so heavy and his jumping is stiff and wonky, making platforming more stiff than it needs to be. When I jump in a platformer I want to feel in control of my jumps and they need to have a flow. This is why the 2D sections are just bad, because it brings out the weakness of the design, Sonic just can't platform or jump well in this engine it isn't designed for that. Even taking that away you're left with the go fast in a straightfoward railroaded path until you reach the end.
Sure there are more paths and other things that change your direction, but that's killed by just forcing me to go back to the same straight path after a while. Because of the restrictive design as a whole (even factoring in the multiple pathways) I just don't like the design. That's not to say its not without its merits, it's also a shame this design has never been a standalone playstyle, as it always has something with it so it can never been its own thing. By the way Bani is Amy Rose your favorite character?
Love your music choices.
Personally I'd divide the game into two sections:
1.The Boost style section
2. Adventure style sections
By dividing these into two, you eliminate the needs for extra characters and 2d sections. The Boost sections would focus on the gotta go fast more linear sections. These would give the spectacle and give a way for them to focus on better boost levels. Now the Adventure sections would give more open multipath areas which would give the platforming aspects of Sonic a shine. Also by dividing these, one can get wowed by the spectacle of the speed once more as it is not constant.
Thank you!! Ive always been saying this. Since boost levels arent long enough to make an entire game and need more content, they should just put a boost level after every 2 or 3 adventure levels
@@ELFKNMAPO This should be like Sonic 06 (without bugs and glitches). Adventure style in most sections and Boost style in high speed sections.
@@mep6302 I totally agree, sonic 06 had "boost" stages that were pretty bad but if they used a proper boost formula it wouldve worked so damn well
Interestingly, Frontiers appears to be reconciling the appeal of the boost formula by making the traditional “boost” stages shorter side thing obstacle courses, while the main game is a more open and vast exploration of larger land masses. Separating that style feels like Sonic Team reconciling what the style is and isn’t capable of, as even with boosting in the world, control is apparently far tighter when exploring.
How well this works out we’ll find out upon release, but for the kind of game Frontiers is, making the boost “stages” less elaborate and more numerous may actually be a benefit
This is a real underrated channel, man
Boost should stay, Adventure should return. I've always imagined combining the two gameplay styles in a game. But boost should not be as bad as in Forces. I'm sure a fan game mastered combining the styles.
im working on a game that does just that, but it will take some time
Sonic gt does it the best
I've said this a while ago but imagine a game where Sonic has boost gameplay and Shadow has the Dreamcast style gameplay
I would make adventure (Sonic Utopia / Sonic GT) the main gameplay and the Boost gameplay could be used for special stages
@@SavertonJr Agreed
God I love listening to these essays with nujabes playing in the background often! Please keep doing what you're doing!
I appreciate that this video is titled the purpose of the boost formula and not "the problem of the boost formula". small things go a long way
I grew up with most of the Modern games, I have such nostalgia for games like Unleashed, Colours and Generations and they will always hold a special place in my heart. But after the disappointment that was Forces, I do think it’s time for the next 3D Sonic game to put aside the boost and have a shot at the Adventure formula again. However, I do think the boost could be kept in some way or another in the main 3D series. You showed footage from Green Hill Paradise Act 2 in this video, and that game uses an Advance 2 esk boost system where you actually have to earn the boost instead of just pressing a button. This shows great compromise between classic design sensibilities and the cinematic speed of the modern games. On hand there’s the classic speed based platforming where if you master the speed, you can maintain the flow in platforming areas, and on the other hand the cinematic set pieces are essentially worked into the gameplay as rewards for earning and maintaining your speed. I would love to see something like this and the controls of Sonic Utopia be worked into a new 3D Sonic game.
Colors is good for you but Forces isn't? I see hipocresy here.
@@mep6302 Nah colors had good boost and fun gimmicks while forces neutered boos and wasn't as fun. There is no hypocrisy in that statement.
@@mep6302 nah you're just a dipshit who pisses himself over colors fans, grow up you crybaby.
The Unleashed boost makes me FEEEL like Sonic, Generations’s boost makes me day dream
Well, Frontiers sure went a totally different direction... but, and I never would've expected it - it did it. It... actually finally did it. It's been eleven years since I played a 3D Sonic game I liked, and some flaws here and there notwithstanding, I didn't just like Frontiers, I honestly lowkey loved it. My worries that they'll do something totally new and untested _yet again_ aside... I sincerely hope they stick with this one to hone and refine it further. Because I _seriously_ enjoyed what we got.
May I direct you to one “Oban” on twitter. He’s been working on a Sonic Engine called the Infinity Engine. Honestly, to what I have seen from his tweeted videos, I believe that that is how 3D Sonic should handle. A perfect mix of boost, adventure, platforming, and charm (with both Sonic and Shadow). The little touches (like Shadow’s side step representing as performing chaos control to the side) (and the homing Attack animations) really sold me on the idea that Sonic can indeed control well in 3D. All that’s missing now is level design that takes advantage of Sonic and Shadow’s move pool...
i.e. the most important part of the game.
@@hatslapper6860 2nd most important part imo cuz again imo the most important part is control
Didn't that project get cancelled?
@@TZMHBT hes only trolling us
@@TZMHBT nope
Showed up in my recommended and already a Sub, I fully support this statement.
"With 3D Sonic at a once again tentative frontier" what ironic wording.
dude I LOVE the idea of a tight freeruning on-rail obstical course with stunning visuals. Thats honestly what I think of when I think of sonic, and I really want more Boost sonic games
One of the best Sonic tubers at the moment. I'd like to see your perspective on the perception of Classic Sonic today and the one from the 90's.
*Honestly, the best route the series can go is to become a momentum-based 3D plataformer like Sonic Utopia, just with a more focused level design.*
I feel like you are the most active brazilian youtuber in the American/British Sonic community.
Plus,if you don't know the Sonic Infinity engine project,you should. It is a perfection of the Boost gameplay,with mechanics and physics that work well in both fast and platforming sections.
Eae,joe!
The king is back, bask in his glory
Still love this idea to this day. Hopefully, maybe one day, they'll go this route. Nice little rewatch and good ideas.
That moment when a youtuber can explain something WAYYYY better than any teacher can
This is a great video. No need to trash on all teachers though.
EmBani: "It's time for Sonic to become a platformer again"
Sonic Team 2022: "Here a game that takes inspiration from Zelda Breath of the Wild"
I want you to know that years later, your description of Rooftop Run at 14:02 still hits different
4:43 Which came from an even bigger 2 dimensional tumor.
A perfect representation, then.
You're sick dude. You always have great discussion points and amazing presentation, whilst being well spoken. Keep it going dude, I've meant to do this for awhile now but I'm gonna give you that sub.
You brought a lot of good points. For me, the best 3D Sonic game will perfectly combine speed and platforming. Add the spectacle and gimmicks later. I appreciate that Lost World tried to balance this with the run button, and I do agree that Sonic's movement/controls is the key to this balance, but they missed their mark on that one. But with more work and focus on this balance, I think they'll skyrocket once they strike the gold. Hopefully they're actually working on that, and it happens someday
Lost Mind blew ass though. The run button is a plain retarded idea, and doesn't even make Sonic that fast, the Parkour was worthless, the level design horrendous, and so was the weird, goofy Mario/GHZ spam-a-lot aesthetics.
@@TheDen-ec9xe I don't like Lost World much either, but I appreciate that they realized Sonic's speed is an big factor in these games. I like that there was an _attempt_ to do something about it. Their attempt sucked though.
If I were them, i'd change the system from a run button, to a speed toggle. Pressing a specific bumper/trigger would set Sonic to one of 2 modes. The default first mode is that Sonic walks, then jogs, and then runs (the usual stuff). But the second mode would automatically lock sonic in the "jog" phase, so he doesn't accidentally speed up and die. Pressing the trigger to switch phases while jogging will make Sonic jog for twice as long before going into "run" phase (so people don't press the trigger twice to skip the "walk" phase of the first mode). So basically a _walk_ trigger instead of a run button. There still might be a problem with this, but they can fix that later. It'd be a damn lot better than what they have now, I know that much
@@gamejitzu That's what the Boost did already. But it's a retardedidea in itself because it goes against Sonic's foundation in *MOMENTUM* physics. The hell is the point of walking or jogging ?
@@gamejitzu Uhmmm your reply just disappeared. The Boost is basically a run button.
@Gaming Sensei "but unless you're a speedrunner it's a guarantee that if there's platforming, you'll have to slow down to do it"
And that's why the Adventure gameplay already got that covered. Unless you're a Parkinson case who can't hold a glass without spilling the water, their physics are made such to facilitate navigating at slow speed.
No need for some stinking ass "run button". And I'm no speedrunner, so.....
I've had the same idea! I've thought about how fun a Kid Icarus-styled Sonic game would be. Secret Rings and Black Knight felt like they wanted to be that but it wasn't executed well lol I'd love a fully on-rails, cinematic sonic game
This is pretty good analysis. Well written and structured that doesn't seem like an improvised 10 min. discussion. I don't think Generations is awkward in its design, mostly because every alternate path has a spring that gets you back on track, but the idea of dividing spectacle from platforming is good. I think both can exist in the same game, heck even the same level, but they have to be separate.
I'm only 10min into the video so far, but I came to a lot of the same conclusions and ideas that you gave in this video except I realized them while playing Sonic and the Secret Rings.
so like sega sonic the hedgehog, where you run through dangerous traps obstacles and enemies at high speeds and are put in different situations where you have to essentially QTE your way out? massive crazy set pieces and cinematic moments.
1:22 is that a remix of chamber of reflection by Mac DeMarco? lol
anyways, I would definitely like to see SonicTeam shake things up a bit for the next 3D game. To me Sonic Forces is to the Boost formula what '06 was to the Adventure formula; a complete butchering that really missed the mark on what made people enjoy the style in the first place.
I'm honestly a little bit fatigued with the boost style and I hope to see something different in the future. SEGA have said that "the next 3D game will be heavily inspired by the success of Mania", but what that actually means is way beyond me. If they do have boost games as a spinoff style though, I wouldn't mind.
"Long time no see"
Edit:Also, is it just me, or do I detect a bit of Hollow Knight influence in Em.Bani's new avatar?🤔🤔🤔
>_
I actually embrace the boost. I see why it could be a bad thing, but when done right, it can be a satisfying and exhilarating.
Generations has been my favourite Sonic game since release, and I personally think that it's the better boost game in terms of how Sonic feels. But from the small part of Unleashed I've played, it definitely has way better level design than Generations. Generations' levels are amazing but the platforming sections in both 2D and 3D really kill the pace (particularly later on in stages such as Crisis City and Planet Wisp). Meanwhile, Unleashed keeps the speed consistent throughout the stages, with quick time sections and brief homing attack chains to fill in for the lack of platforming.
I think if we did get one final boost game, Sega should keep how Sonic felt in Generations along with the level design, whilst keeping up the pace and cutting down on the platforming similarly to Unleashed.
What if boost gameplay had star fox vibes, certain routes take you to different stages and bosses etc
I love the boost games chief among them sonic unleashed. But that doesn't mean I dont want another game like sonic adventure.
I definitely agree that the boost formula should be revisited in the future.
But not immediately.
Sonic Team would be handing over their heads on a platter to the general public if they attempted that.
Also, I reaaly jive with the idea of arcade style multiplayer element with leaderboards,
but for me, I feel you like the best thing would be to have actual ghost races against people online.
You could unlock Sonic's friends as "skins" of sorts, or be able to where different shoes or something.
Eitherway, good stuff as usual
There's probably gonna be nobody reading this, but I have an idea on how Sonic could fix boost to a way that literally combines platforming and speed to coexist. I thought up of this when I watched the Sonic Movie back in Valentines Day. There was a scene where Sonic was moving and breaking rockets from hitting him in slow motion as he ran down to the bottom of the skyscraper, that's when the idea came to mind. If you guys see any flaws, let me know. The concept I imagine is that the Team creates a Sonic game in which he controls time by being able to slow it down if need be. This could be used to make precise jump or dodge movements in times where otherwise he would be too fast to control, with the ability to swiftly go back to 1x speed in time to make each dodge or jump feel rewarding, with each successful movement granting a boost on his boost meter. Boost could be reworked by not being awarded for rings or badniks, but more for landing tricks on a scale of good to perfect. Let me know what you guys think.
Maybe a old trick that they could bring back to compliment that style of gameplay's is a slow motion Super Peel Out, granting more speed if you mash a button for a certain amount of time, let's say like 2-3 seconds. This wouldn't grant speed to just boost through the entire level with badnik invincibility without having to press more than one button, but would grant speed to dodge instead of instantly annihilating anything in your path. This means that you need to react faster and use your head to time things right. In summary, this would make Sonic be able to be what it was intended to be, a platformer while not getting rid of his famous speed.
This Peel-Out could be a replacement for boost previously mentioned, with the boost meter becoming an extra second added to the time you could charge up your Peel-Out in slow motion.
I'll note that the idea of Sonic being able to slow down time was used in Sonic and the Secret Rings with the Time Break move. I didn't find it particularly useful in that game, but it probably could have been refined for later games (maybe it was in Black Knight, I haven't played that one yet)
your production quality and editing pretty amazing for videogame video-essays
Honestly when it comes to Sonic I feel like exploration is a pretty underrated pillar. Yeah speed and platforming is important but I don't really like how the Unleashed and Generations focus on the speed sometimes above all else. I mean it can be fun but if that's all I'm doing it's only a matter of time before I shut off the game from boredom sorry to say the thrill kind of wears of after some time. Which is why I'm going to go against the majority and say Sonic Colors is my favorite Boost game. I know that's unpopular to say especially now and on this video but I really do prefer the style of Colors where you aren't just playing to race to the end every time but also exploring the stage too with the wisps and racking up points to get an S rank. There's fun in playing a game and choosing where you wanna go and what you wanna do rather than where the game wants you to go and do every time.
TL;DR- Sometimes, I just wanna slow down and enjoy the scenery.
7:48 "a mile a minute"
I think he's going faster than 60mph my dude
Bae herself 💗
Wow! I never thought of boost sonic like an arcade game! That's so cool!
I skimmed some of the video and understand your sentiment. You're not wrong but personally here's what I think:
It's not like everything is big or small, one is greater than the other. It's more like, "be the best you can be. " So with that in mind if every sonic game (or some of them ) are messes then let's make them the best messes they can be.
So werehog. You are a 3d platformer. You gain speed from from swinging your arms and moving them. But instead of doing it _their_ way why not make it like Spiderman ps4? And his maxspeed is able to be like sonic's. And he's optional so you don't have to use him if you don't want to. Both were and and sonic are optional, use one or the other. Both get you the bad ending. But restore the chaos emeralds to unlock the true one. Maybe even both have different levels. Who knows?
Or sonic adventure. All different gameplays. But in that case why not expand upon each and every one of them? Use Sonic to play like sonic or play as anyone else to play their way. When you use gamma (and you might have seen this comment once) but make it feel like the best shooting game ever (of course there's always a limit but give it your best ). When you fish with Big it's almost like one of those Bass fishing games on steroids. Amy is like kingdom hearts or more automata but even better and smooth so it all feels and fits like and with sonic.
And all of these gameplays are optional. Just unlock them to use them or vise versa (like you can also play as them like sonic). Oh and I forgot. They all fit within the theme of sonic extremely well.
So boost. Em, let me tell ya when you talk about merging cinematics and gameplay this reminds me of when I and other ppl, too, wanted a sonic CD intro-kinda game. Where basically it's all drawn and animated like it, too, and you can even do all the tricks and ninjitsu (I'm pretty sure it's not ninjitsu 😊) parkour stuff. I've been thinking of this for a while and essentially I'd make it like Spiderman ps4 where you hold a button and you can do all of the cinematics on your own; no scripted events needed. And when they DO have them again it'd be like Spiderman where you can press a button and "web-tunnel" so to speak at certain points and places. So imagine there's an apartment staircase or something and you're going inbetween it. Press the action button and you can spin-twist through it or something.
As for level design and stuff.... I dunno :) I'm not the best on it but I suppose try to make it compliment sonic himself. What I mean is you go downhill you go faster; uphill is slower. So have levels that challenge this idea. Like ex: there's a killer barrel that breaks the laws of physics and it's chasing you uphill. You need to find a way to escape it and perhaps boosting would make it easier, etc. You guys can figure it out and stuff.
And for boosting I don't really care but I'd make it like in f-zero where it's all momentum based. Basically if you're going really slow and you boost then you'll go a little faster, but if you're moving SUPER fast then when you boost you'll go WAY faster. Can refill with rings, enemies, whatever.
Oh and of course for the business of it I'd outsource to other ppl to make the game. You know I'm not the best at this.
That's just what I think.
That could actually work it would require a short of reboot of the series but having all sort of gameplay styles stepping on different foundations of Sonic would result in quite the unique experience.
@@baggelissonic it would really be a sight to see :)
Never played unleashed, the only boost games I’ve played are generations and colors. I really didn’t enjoy generations, I felt like the majority of the fun levels and content was walled off by boring classic sonic stages and replaying levels with modifiers. I just wanted to get straight to the fun stuff. But from what I did play the modern sonic stages were fun, but felt shallow. As for colors my enjoyment went straight to the deep end once the game started being mostly 2D.
I’d love for sonic to take the route of Utopia, using your momentum and an expanding moveset to traverse around the massive environment.
I’m not entirely sure what you would “do”, but maybe something along the lines of a collectathon to encourage exploration and experimenting with your movement.
When I played Utopia, gained top speed, and went up a ramp and saw the entire map it was really awe inspiring. It gave me this feeling of the “Sonic Boom” song from Sonic CD. If they went with a simplistic and stylized art style they could create larger levels at a decent speed compared to trying to make somewhat realistic environments.
Just the thought of using movement mechanics and momentum as a way to traverse a huge sandbox sounds really fun for me.
Try the wii version of unleashed before you play the HD version
It's pretty tough
I mean, Unleashed put tons of the precision platforming to the Werehog sections.
This was great! Really makes you think about what could happen, hope the best for the future of sonic and your channel. 👍
What I think Sega should do is do what nintendo do with Mario,separate the playstyles similar to NSMB and the 3d platformers,and the boost games would be the spin offs(not in story though,but its not like the boost games actually had a deep story)and the Adventure style would be the main games,so lets say there is an adventure styled game every 3 years but during that we get 1 boost game with dlc support and a classic sonic game which would satisfy the fans of all styles and its all different teams in charge since there is no ST in Japan anymore,more devs can work on the games which is a win for everyone
this is just amazing well done
The style of these videos are actually really cool and the content in them are actually very informative and interesting
Yeah. I feel boost should be a spinoff or a complimentary style to a bigger formula.
I always view the boost formula as a glorified racing game in terms of its overall mechanics and how Sonic controls. The boost formula is "boost-to-win" and it has to be in order to fulfill its design philosophy (which is about going fast). The moment the boost formula starts trying to implement moments of platforming and exploration as a means of trying to have its cake and eat it too, the gameplay style suffers. Platforming has always been a slow-paced genre and that's because the emphasis is on observation and timing your jumps properly. The Genesis games, along with CD, were hardly fast games either. They all focused on platforming first and foremost while physics was something that made Sonic control naturally and further be capable of going fast depending on the terrain.
The boost formula is nothing like that when you're controlling an inherently fast-moving character that can go even faster at the push of a button. It's fine enough when the game is in 3D the entire time and the level design is in the form of linear race-tracks. Sonic's controls are specifically built for that kind of level design and the 3D perspective helps in showing where you're going. His controls become counter-intuitive when platforming is added to the mix and when the perspective changes to 2D. That is bad game design to the nth degree where you have conflict between the controls and the level design. Not using the boost is not a solution either since Sonic controls like a tank. In all of the boost formula games, he has stiff controls which are meant to make him manageable to control as he's going at high speeds. In the process, platforming doesn't work right with him. There's zero flow to his movements. The Adventure formula games give Sonic far superior controls when it comes to platforming and that's solely because Sonic is much slower in those games. This makes him suitable for moments of platforming and exploration and you're going at a comfortable speed in order to avoid obstacles. That's why I can never say Sonic "is about speed" since that contradicts the fact, established by the classics, that he's supposed to be a platformer. As a platformer, he has to be moving at a moderately slow pace in order for dodging hazards to be manageable. The classics and the Adventure formula games understood this. Truth be told, people are so caught up on the "gotta go fast" trope, they become ignorant to how game design works and the synergy between controls and level design. As far as I can tell, the emphasis on speed when it comes to the marketing for the Sonic series is a curse for the series.
I hope Sonic Team ditches the boost formula since I find that gameplay style holds the series back in terms of the characters to play as and the freedom of experimentation that can be done with the series in terms of the platform genre. The boost formula's only appeal is going fast and that quickly gets stale. Concepts like the boost formula are typically used for racing games and never meant to be the primary focus in a platformer of all things. Then when the game tries to implement platforming and exploration at the same time, you have yourself a terrible and confused mess of a video game. That applies to all of the boost formula games. I'll always prefer the Adventure formula over the boost formula simply because of that design issue.
There are two options on how I think the boost should be handled:
*Make it an unlock able skill*: This means that it can be entirely optional whether you want to equip it or not. That also means that levels aren't built around the boost in order to use the skills you have at hand more effectively. This means you have fans that like adventure don't have to equip it and those who like the boost can equip it. Everyone wins.
*A Boost State( or mode)*: If you are able to build enough speed, you enter this state where you can move at high speed in the state akin to the boost where you can knock into enemies but can still be knocked out of it when running into obstacles. You won't loose speed whenever you jump or do a chain homing attack. When playing adventure, you had to constantly spin dash in order to get to top speed because you always had a hard time maintaining it. This type of speed will feel earned among all players and you can feel as if sonic is at his full potential.
@@LUNA-zn7ep levels can always be designed with routes on how you want to maintain your speed. If that isn't enough, there can always be mach speed sections that can move as fast as unleashed. These are just thoughts.
@@LUNA-zn7ep I mean these are just ideas. Anyone could have thought of it, and maybe even better. I put them down because will getting rid of the boost formula do any good? It has been already established and is a formula that is very successful too. It shows us the differences between classic, dreamcast and modern. Scrapping the idea entirely and just replacing it with adventure won't work entirely. Because they haven't worked on an adventure game since 2006. So not only do they have to re learn what made adventure "adventure", they also need to remove any problems and flaws that may have been present in order for it to work. why not implement the boost formula in new ways that can please all fans. I think sonic team knows by now that what they are doing is not working.
Plus, Forces was built off an engine that was entirely new along with developers that were new to level design. I'm sure they've learned their mistake and can improve on in future games. I know they can. Why? Because they went from sonic 06 to sonic unleashed in just 2 years. So I for one, am optimistic about what's to come next.
Warning an in-depth explenation of gameplay concepts is followed.
I have been wanting to see more stylish gameplay in Sonic games for a while now. Perfect examples of how that would work are SuperSonic generations and Project Hero engine. Another great example that I still think is more brilliant that people don't give enough credit for are the rainbow rings from Sonic generations. The trick system is such a simple novelty that elevates cinematic moments while having a clear function, although I do have a hard time figuring if the movement altering tricks from sonic advance 2 and 3 might offer more gameplay variation or will threaten the setpieces.
On the topic of gameplay I want to see in the future I have three main Suggestions, that are completely seperate but they could work together.
1) As far as level design goes, I think that the direction should be linear but at the same time having a lot of options. The spectacle would come from the way that the player decides to overcome the obstacles ahead, which is also the main appeal to Sonic speedrunning for me. However the player should be allowed to flow through the obstacles opposed by enemies and the unique terrain seemingless with the only advantages of taking a harder path or choice being a better time, score and feeling good. A perfect example is the way that city escape is designed, and I am referring exclusively to the parts you have full control of Sonic, the skill level in a Sonic game should always affect how fun it is. A Sonic stage that's more fun every time you play it is a good Sonic stage. At least that's also what the Classics did. That could also expand to combat, that I honestly think had the strongest foundation in Sonic 06 despite the way it utilized it, when approaching the enemy the player should have different options depending what the player wants to achieve. Want to maintain ground speed but kill an enemy slide, want to gain upwards momentum while killing him homing attack, want to do both then do a well timed spin jump (not present in 06). Even jumping out of slide could have its own utilization. And you know what all this require 2 buttons.
2) Mixing spectacle and function in one. There is no denying that Sonic games have setpieces but wouldn't it be much cooler if you were actually playing through them, adventure snowboarding sections, the rockets from SA2, the tornado in windy hill as well as the tornado in both sections it appeared in Sonic 06, despite the fact the game could barely render all that chaos caused by it. And I have a few ideas up my sleeve as well. Remember the rockets from Sonic generations and that one part where you could jump of a rocket and catch onto it again for no reason other than the cool factor? What if in Egg gate in forces instead of the qte there was a setpiece like that. Imagine going through the roofs of those "buildings" while having spaceships that you could grab onto and dodge chasing you, rogue ships and falling ships and buildings would encourage quick thinking in the mayhem that would ensue. Another one that I had been thinking would be a scenario in which you found yourself going through a falling building in a dystopian scenery, the scene would last for 20 second tops and the building would be wider ratjer than taller, bad decisions and reaction time would result in exiting the building from ground level while good performance would lead staying in the rooftop and jumping of the building resulting in a panoramic view of the building's destruction. Set pieces like that could also be used to male the story more interactive.
3) this is a shorter one and is more prone to not working. Basically I had a concept of having a speed barrier of when the user can "boost", taking a que from green hill paradise act 2. The main purpose of that would be to better separate platforming and speed sections while also not limiting better players in neither sections.
Having fun Should always be a priority but learning the game and playing the game the way you wanted should be the most fun way to do so. And that's also what makes Sonic 2, 3 and K and especially Mania, much better games than Sonic cd, in which not every playstyle is equally fun.
12:38 "SONIC WAIT"
*sonic proceeds to ride a giant bullet*
Your content and points are so... Eh, on point and enjoyable to hear.
I've got nothing else to say, aside of keep being who you are, you're great.
Thank you very much for saying good things about the storybook games. Your ideas may be very good for sonic team
I honestly think the next step is to go back and reimagine the adventure formula. To give some grounding in my opinions, yes I grew up with the adventure games and may be a little biased towards them, but I cannot get the feeling off of me that objectively, the Adventure games catpure the essential gameplay of Sonic better then the spectacle of the Boost games. Adventure era tried to replicate what made Classic era good in a 3D enviroment; a combination of momentum based speed and off the rails exploration packed with level mastery that made you feel good to play and conquer. Where this idea fell apart, was in the timing and execution: the limitation of the late 90's hardware + the running trend of Sega to rush games made what was supposed to be a great concept of the 3D sonic fleshed out in a great game, into a mechanical mess that didn't hold up in itself. Now, I want to flesh out why I think a revision to the core mechanics of the Adventure formula would serve great, if not to make a new Adventure game, to get a better understanding of the ideas that really makes people go back and maybe implement them in the future. The mechanic I want to talk about is the most obvious mechanic in all the 3D formulas: The Homing Attack. There is a reason why this has been a stable of 3D Sonic since the first, and I'm pretty sure we all understand. Nonetheless, I think the Boost formula missed an aspect of the homing attack that made it interesting in the first place, this aspect being the weight and momentum that gaives you: When you do a homing attack in the Adventure games, Sonic goes front force and moves in the air until he hits the ground, where it converts the airborn speed into ground movement, making it a smooth and logical transition, where as the Boost games decided to make the homing attack not have momentum at all; instead, the homing attack becomes a tool for maneuvering and platforming, since after the homing attack is done, it stops your momentum almost completely, for me this being illogical and non intuitive. For the purposes and design of the Boost games, this is a understandable change, since you dont need the momentum the homing attack gives you as you can just, boost. What I try to say with all this, is basically a complement of this video: Boost formula doesnt work for mechanical incentivice. And I think what Sonic Team should do is to go back a the games that tried to do a more mechanical fundation of Sonic's movement, and revise what went wrong and how they could make it better. I'm sorry this became a tad bit too long, wasn't really mi intention but I just went on and on. Also, sorry if there is any mistakes in my spelling and the way I do my sentences, I'm not very well suited for long English paragraphs since it isn't my native language, and I thank you, if you acctually read all this despite not being as professional as your videos or other's commentaries. Good day or night.
I'm kind of mixed on this video.
I agree the boost can't really work as Sonic's main gameplay style, because it only really strives in situational spaces that revolve around moving fast.
And I feel Sonic's Adventure gameplay movement, control/physics is the way to go with some beneficial expansions (curling into roll midair, drop-dash, parkour perhaps?
And for characters to expand off of this with their own quirks and features).
But the boost formula doesn't need to be a spin off (at least I don't think).
Rather a secondary style.
I was playing P-06 and as you know, there's mach speed sections that focus primarily on running really fast.
If you run into a wall, you'll just stop.
If you don't want to go too fast, you don't have to blast off.
Maybe the boost formula could work as an expansion off of this, with the drift and boost abilities thrown into the mix.
So it's not too automated, but it exists within these types of circumstances designed for just focusing on high-speed movement.
Compared to Adventure's general focus on methodical level design, which has the speed more so dependent on flow (how the player chooses to traverse the level impacting their speed).
It would be a good way to shake things up during certain moments or parts of stages.
Admittedly it can also be adapted for on-rail sections like the boost games already do, but it's not exclusive to on-rail segments and can be used similarly to P-06's mach segments.
But I wouldn't want something like Forces/Colours quickstep sections, they're not very exciting...
I guess what I'm trying to say is, they should focus on the respective gameplay formula's strengths, and understand why they worked.
Edit : You know, I take back some of what I've said.
The Spin Off Boost game idea makes the most sense, instead of what I originally proposed.
Since Boost Fans and Adventure fans don't really want the same game, so it would be wiser to just give them their own games.
How about they replace the beat'em'up sections as the warehog with slow mechanically-driven platforming. You get to reuse the same level and feel the catharsis of blazing through a level you were just stuck on.
I think generations modern stages are better than unleashed day stages. I wish they were longer but combining sonic's near perfect control with the more platforming and exploration oriented level design, generations modern gameplay is superior in my eyes.
i remember i was blown away by that trailer too... wonderful video, dude
Now that I think about it, I'd honestly just be happy if they made 3D Sonic a pure speedrunning game based around flow, dropping the pretense of being a platformer altogether, with what platforming there is being a sort of punishment for failing at the flow based high speed sections up top. Kind of like how the old games often had the upper levels of their stages be the fastest route, with the most flow, but if you fucked up the rhythm you'd fall into the slower, more "platforming heavy" portions of the stage. By that measure, maybe have it so if you play the upper path perfectly, you never have to interact with the "platform-y" parts of the stage at all, whereas if you screw up, the platforming would literally be a momentary (read: "used as a means to get you back up to the high speed paths") punishment. Leave the actual "platforming" gameplay to the 2D games (and give us more 2D Sonic like Mania).
There's one positive thing I think Forces has given us in hindsight, not just in the sense that it might give Sonic Team the convincing they need to rethink their strategy. We might now have a way to accommodate all three playstyles for Sonic. As in, we can have three separate lines of games to fulfill those three niches. Whitehead's team can expand upon the classic formula. The avatar, adjusted to factor in momentum, among other things, could be used for a set of adventure-style games. And Sonic, having done the whole running-into-the-sunset thing, could continue the boost formula.
People reading this might want Sonic to be the star of an adventure game. But I think the avatar would work better. It would remove the difficulty of trying to naturally fit Sonic's cheesy nineties personality into a darker story, which only Adventure 2 even came close to pulling off (possibly by accident). Same goes for Eggman, who, without Dean Bristo voicing him, and as we've always known him outside the Adventure games, would not fit very well with a serious tone, in my opinion. It would also mean continuity wouldn't be broken by having the boost vanish between games (yes, I know Lost World did that, but that game's been kinda left in the dust). (Edit: Also, I should note that Sonic Team probably couldn't consistently output two different styles of game at a satisfactory rate for both, but then it might be a good idea to outsource one of them, maybe even to fans if they're willing to do that again).
I don't doubt there are also others who want the boost formula gone entirely out of spite, but I think it still deserves a place in the franchise, honestly even more so than this video would suggest (still a great video, still love you Em. Bani). Here comes a tangent where I defend the boost formula. For one thing, it has a lot of missed potential in the same way the Adventure games do. Maybe more of that potential was filled in the modern era, but still, it shouldn't be left behind again. For another, I don't see how the boost formula can't obtain a sense of adventure. Maybe it's just me, but what's not adventurous about running through a beautiful, mysterious landscape? Yeah, it's inherently linear, but, after playing it myself, no more linear than Adventure 2. Yeah, the platforming's weak, but platforming isn't a requirement of the adventure genre. Yeah, obstacles can get samey, but no more samey than another homing attack chain or loop-de-loop. All that's needed is a bit more focus on variety, something Generations came close to, having covered stages from all across the years. But finally, people who grew up with the boost formula, not dissimilar to people who grew up with the classic or adventure formula, will likely want that formula to come back. Hell, if it were gone, demand for it might come straight back, given how opinions on the Adventure games seemed to go from positive to negative to positive again, based on what I've seen growing up.
All of this, of course, is assuming Sonic Team doesn't take off in a new, interesting, but flawed direction entirely, adding another division to the fanbase, leaving the current formula to be suddenly scorned and it's fans to be ridiculed, appealing or arguably pandering to fans of the formula preceding that one, and of course continuing to improve upon but also maybe take away from the new formula, eventually leading to an entry that's negatively received and causing the cycle to start all over again. The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess. My money is on them bringing back Lost World's parkour system, but then again, I might be wrong about all of this :/
This is one of my favorite channels! each of your videos are entertaining, intelligent and down right masterpieces. You deserve way more attention. I don't even like Sonic that much I just love the style of your videos. Keep up the good work, you're an amazing youtuber!
Those fanmade proof of concept engine demos all have one thing in common, they're all essentially just the classic games in 3D, taking only a few features from other games that they think would be interesting with those movesets
And unlike the adventure games, they all handle perfectly fine at high speeds instead of just at a moderate pace, proving that the boost gameplay's entire conceit was mistaken to begin with, you can in fact do both in one gameplay style
Unleashed and generations were the best use of the boost style meanwhile colors and forces was some of the worst not just boost style games but sonic games in general why because of iizuka's lack of direction and focus for the series and Kishimoto's subpar level design and art direction. In my opinion this all started with that over hyped game sonic colors the game is so linear and easy that it's boring it was a game to please critics and unfortunately they succeeded. After that they had Kishimoto on not 1 but 3 main line sonic titles 2010-2017 all of them being mediocre at best if they just had Unleashed and generations directors in charge I 100 percent believe the boost would be improved and evolved instead of going backward every time it's in Kishimoto's hands, to bad sonic team has bad management.
Agreed. Going back to colors a few months ago I seriously wasn't sure where all the hype came from. The most 3d thing about that game was the models and the boost was so underutilized that when it WAS used, it felt like a glorified loading screen, moving you along to the next 2d section.
Thank you for years I considered colors to be shit, the story sucks, gameplay is a complete downgrade it's mostly 2d any 3d in the game is automatic linear bullshit the wisp enough said it's baffling to me how people can consider this a good game with so many problems and how they get so many things wrong
Colors is the most soulless bland shit I’ve played in years
Holy shit! People dissing Colors for valid reasons ! :D
That said, I didn't like Generations either. Controlling Sonic at slow speed felt tiresome and really awkward, and the "open 3D" parts are generally very linear and empty.
C'mon people. The only good boost games are unleashed and colors.
As has been resting on me, the next game to use the Boost Formula should be 100% in the hands of Dimps, as they have the most insight in the Boost itself.
Boost worked best in Sonic Rush because dimps loves their stop-start dash panel gameplay. In 2d, it makes the lack of screen space less of an issuse. In 3d, it necessitates long drawn-out curvy autorun corridoors.
What do you think of an Sonic with the playstyle of Transformers Desvisation?
Basically put in terms of boost gameplay, Sonic Unleashed is Sonic Advance 2 as Sonic Generations and Colors are Sonic Advance 3. Both Sonic Unleashed & Advance 2 focus mostly on pure speed gameplay with lots of thrilling moments which caused complaints about little platforming, while Advance 3, Colors, and Generations tried to put more emphasis on platforming with the boost gameplay to satisfy the platforming complainers.
I also want Boost Sonic to be a separate entity from 3D Platformer Sonic, but I think Boost gameplay should be repurposed as a racing game.
My favourite Sonic game is Sonic UnWiished and one thing or got right was it's compete focus on reaching the goal in time. Platforming isn't a forced element and verticality is introduced to add layers to the racetrack without breaking the flow like platforming often does.