How Echo Knight works in D&D 5E - Advanced guide to Manifest Echo
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- This video explains both RAW and RAI for Manifest Echo.
Special thanks to Lilith for helping me with this video!
Link to Ghostlance build I will cover in the future:
tabletopbuilds...
Link to discord and patreon:
www.patreon.co....
/ discord
3rd bullet point from Sentine does work with the Echo. Forgot to mention that in the video.
How would the 3rd feature from Manifest Echo work if the fighter with sentinel would have a normal melee range of 10 feet i.e. Bugbear or one of the many weapons with the reach property?
It only works for the purpose of "if the target is within 5ft of you and attacks the Echo, you get an opportunity attack". The Echo itself doesn't provide an additional zone for this bullet point.
@@DonFranke Opportunity attacks are provoked only if the enemy was within 5 ft of the Echo. It's not dependant on your reach.
@@antongrigoryev6381 i posted this question 5 minutes ago, holy moly you guys are fast
Sentinel reaction attack RAW is not an Opportunity Attack, it's a weapon attack you make with your reaction, but it's not called an Opportunity Attack, so your Manifest Echo doesn't interact with it.
Used this lovely little sub-class in a recent one-shot, multiclassed with Barbarian to make a formidable frontliner that could quickly blink around the battlefield, 'scout' rooms ahead by sending waves of his echos ahead, and create near-inescapable pincer holds with Sentinel plus good positioning.
The echo is extremely versatile, and gives the Fighter an extremely valuable tool that lets you solve all sorts of problems-combat or otherwise-before that wizard can even reach for their guano. Plus, the ways you can flavor it vast! For my Warforged, it was a 'hard-light hologram' that was the same shade of light blue as his one 'eye''.
I highly recommended giving this archetype a whirl!
The way that I was gonna flavor it was a dead comrade who's all like "even death isn't gonna stop me from bailing your ass out of trouble!"
I need to compare Echo Knight with Eldritch Knight for multiclassing between Sub Classes of the same Class. I think both Sub Classes can benefit each other.
All I’m saying is if you’re a wizard multiclass could you ploymorph your echo into I don’t know A EAGLE OR A HORSE. This class’s utility is off the wall. Not just that but you are virtually impossible to restrain since you can just summon your echo to free you
On top of that insanity imagine what you could do with wildshape or rune knight’s giants might
@@personman8734
As long as (1) Polymorph can affect objects or (2) your transformation does not limit or negate Spell use... If Echo is considered a Spell... But you do use up your Bonus Action to manifest an Echo or to swap places with the Echos. It's not entirely free.
The fact that the echo is magical saves us all from the truly noodly experience of figuring out how it interacts with Animate Objects. (AFAIK it keeps whichever AC is highest, gains 40 HP as per the animated object effect, keeps all it's immunities and can do everything it could as your echo (since those features use your actions) while also being animated itself and getting it's own suite of actions.)
Wait..what?.. I just got the same look on my face my friends got when i asked about summoning a vorpoal sword to my hand while my hand is inside a dudes mouth..
@@fireblade-cp8uw
Eldritch Knight: "First time???"
Cool interaction although just using as sentinel strength is giid
There's no reason to worry about the grapple mechanics if trying to drop a flying creature (and it's debatable what happens whether the grappled condition applies in the first place when you're out of reach). Just make shove attacks to drop prone, they have the same chance to succeed and no need for a free hand and the interaction is far more clean in the rules.
Since the echo's an object, could you hold onto it as you move it into the air? Not grapple it, but hold it.
@@coleofthewild I mean logically yes, but for everyone’s sanity and not giving a level 3 character infinite flight.. I wouldn’t allow that as a dm and I would hope most dms feel the same way, they already have plenty of shenanigans without this.
True. But there are situations where the enemy is immune to the prone condition but not the grappled condition.
@@coleofthewild You could probably ride it if you became smaller than it. There are definitely rideable flying objects. Not that I'd recommend trying this.
@@aurtosebaelheim5942 rideable flying objects have the strength to lift a person. This shadowy intangible shadow shows no sign of that being the case.
This is quite helpful, as I soon plan to introduce my characters to an echo knight npc! He is missing an arm, which he actually manifests to upon his echo as well, except it’s missing it’s left arm and he his right.
I just did something similar with a one shot PC. An Owlin Knight missing his right wing, his Echo missing it's left.
Dude that's a fantastic NPC idea, well done coming up with that!
Echo Knight is difficult to wrap your head around, but it's pretty absurd once you understand it. Infinite attack soakers that effectively increase your range, infinite trap testers, later on it's basically infinite Find Familiar. You can teleport up 30ft ledges without issue. Even as just an object, that means so many of the spells in the game either can't target it or are complete overkill to get rid of 1hp that you can bring back as a bonus action. It not being able to use Help is one of the things balancing it XD
The DM has a lot of room to avoid it triggering traps at least. It's not a creature, it isn't subject to gravity, it can't interact with a lever/button/idol/rope without attacking it, etc. Like is the party gonna wait for the echo to attack each 5ft section of floor, wall, and ceiling they come across? The echo would probably make a clang noise each time too.
@@agilemind6241 the teleport isn’t supposed to work with the scouting. I also found as an echo knight a weightless floating intangible object tended to set off very few traps.
You can get up to 60 feet if you're willing to summon it one round and move it to the edge of your range and then on the next round move it out of your range and then teleport.
Being unable to interact with objects makes it significantly worse than Find Familiar, though. Even if you're not able to get a Flying Monkey which basically has hands. You can do way more with a familiar that can't attack objects than with an echo that can't do anything BUT attack objects.
Of course, against enemies that don't have door technology in their arsenal, being able to send wave after wave of echoes to murder them without expending any resource other than time is always nifty.
@@Coid
I'll multiclass Echo Knight and Eldritch Knight... Basically treating it as a Merger Sub Class.
heres the fun thing
the fly thing actually does work, becuase the thing is an object and not a creature you cant grapple it, but you can still grab it like any other object
thus the fly thing still works
this is incredibly dumb
This subclass has given me no limit of headache over the years. Didn't even know the echo was an object! Thanks so much for this video it's incredibly useful.
🤨 Echo Knight has only been out for one year but I understand where your confusion is coming from on the mechanics regardless.
@@tibboocelot9272 It was likely UA before it became official right
@@Geejay412
It was not. Echo Knight was made by Matthew Mercer and his team for Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.
We have an echo knight in our party and we decided that his echo would basically be a ghost and have a personality of his own (I know it doesn’t work like that RAW but it’s super fun!)
Like an after image similar to the knight, but with its own thoughts that align with him?
@@Pineapple-hx9ty Like an evil twin!
@@Pineapple-hx9ty kind of, the Character is an edgy (a bit emo) Dhampir, and his echo is a part of his own soul (on our canon), which is a much more extroverted and happy-go-lucky version of him... except now his mind got so fucked up by Strahd that it's reflected onto his echo and it's now kind of an empty husk now, so we're trying to restore him
@@kelving420 dark, but interesting!
I played an Echo Knight Warforged. Long story short way back when the Warforged were made a catastrophe happened and since I was in the process of being 'infused with life' at the time I ended up having half a dozen NPC souls in me... later found out its because the original essence was a Devourer... that in desperation I ended up making a Warlock pact with and... yeah things happened it was great he 'died' but now the Devourer is running around in my old characters body trying to make an army of Devourer Warforged.
The part that bugs me about Echo Knight is that you can only make attacks from the echo's position. You can't (RAW) interact with objects from the Echo's position. But what if you make an attack against an object? Say swing your sword at a lever? Which might then push the lever to its other position. You could potentially do something like that but you couldn't explicitly pull on the lever. Echo Knight feels like it was built for a video game and not a table top rpg.
DM: "Roll a 1d20 above the DC of 18 for your Echo to hit the lever in order to activate the gate lock."
Echo: Rolls an 8.
DM: "Well... You can always try again by using your Echos' Extra Attacks on this DC18 Lever."
honestly anything that counts as a nerf is good for me lmao
It does feel a little goofy. But really The solution there would be to simply swap places with your echo, pull the lever, and swap back next round if you really need to be back where you were.
@@tinfoilmkiv8394 This is a bit of a fair point. Like, a practiced and trained sword swing can be done even without thinking, letting the fighter blink to their echo, swing, and blink back. But requiring something with more explicit action would be harder to swap places, stop to notice the new perspective, do the action, and then swap back quite so quickly.
This is one of the things that dnd does for balance and the base concept of the idea, even though it really doesn't make intutive or logical sense. One more that i had the thought is magic missile. Magic missle ignores your AC. So, if you're wearing full plate it goes through the armour. Next scenario, you are in a metal box, immune to magic missile. You have the magical ability to slowly change MM from room to armour. At what point would MM be able to A) target you, and B) hurt you
Very clear. I see so many people talk about how great the echo is for exploration (once you can see through it and so go more than 30 ft) and totally miss the point that it is an object with only two possible interactions your attack and your opportunity attack. It cannot open a door, it is your size so it cannot slide under a door or through a keyhole and it is extremely visible and easy to 'kill'. It is not arcane eye or a rat familiar let alone an imp familiar. It's scouting use is very very limited. It's combat use to navigate the battlefield or keep you out of reach of foes while still dealing melee damage with you magic weapon is priceless when used intelligently.
Eldritch Echo Knight Multi Sub Class will add a bit more Spell versatility without worrying about Spell Slot calculations.
Although, I've never heard anyone Multiclass between the Sub Classes of the same main Class.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 how would that even work?
Do you need six levels of fighter to get the 3rd level feature of each? Or at each subclass feature benefit you get to pick which one you have the level for?
@@noblesseoblige319
Ex: Fighter
You take a level into Eldritch Knight Lv3 at your Character's Lv3.
You take another level into Echo Knight lv3 at your Character's Lv4.
Repeat the process and do not duplicate core Fighter Skills/Mechanics like Second Wind, Extra Attack, and Action Surge etc. You only pick up the Sub Class specific mechanics if you dip a level into "Action Surge" from one Sub Class and from another.
Although, if you decide to double dip levels, then you may not be able to obtain at least one Sub Class mechanics from lv3 to lv20. However, if your Character is lv20, then you may dip a level into the lv20 Sub Class even if you spent your levels on lower level Sub Class mechanics.
However, you can only take levels below your Character's Level. So, unless your Fighter is lv20. You cannot take Sub Class levels above lv10 for a lv10 Fighter.
Finally, follow the Spell Slot Calculations for multiclassing.
(It's two multiclassing variant rules that can be merged into one. (1) You level one Class up to a point at its lv1, and then another Class up to a point at its lv1 based on your current Character Level. (2) You can pick levels from Classes equal to your current level up as you go from lv1 to lv20. (3) Merge 1 and 2.)
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 You can't multiclass into the same class, when you take the multiclassing rules you must choose a new class to take levels in.
@@d1gitals0ul
I knew that... It's no different to Echo Knight x Bladesinger... You don't take abilities like Extra Attack at the same Level since you already have Extra Attack in that specific category of level. But you can apply the Sub Class specific abilities on those core abilities, if there are some.
Multiclassing between Eldritch Knight x Echo Knight will never be as strong as Echo Knight x Bladesinger, but it's a style that I prefer... Besides, you already are multiclassing between the same class if you look at how the multiclassing rules are done. The "new class" part of the rule is only to put a fork on the road.
Hello Echo Kobold! How does it feel to be an object?
Also looking forward to the ghost lance video. The tabletop builds article on it was very interesting
Since it is an object, someone could also just pick it up and move it, as long as they're strong enough to do so, as an item interaction. While this is an annoyance with an artillerist artificer, it could allow an echo knight to have their echo moved by a faster/flying ally.
Then there is also the question of how movement by an object interacts with it being carried.
It also doesn't trigger a lot of defensive/trap spells one might encounter while dungeon delving.
Which begs the question... Does holding an Echo trigger the Grab Attack rules as it would if an enemy grabbed a PC?
This is the same question for Magic Hand because of nuances like its 10 lb limit. (In RAW, this 10 lb limit is only for the object in the Magic Hand. Not anything else trying to hold onto or to attach itself into the object.)
I’d love to do a mauler twins sort of situation with the echo knight. Every time you bring out your echo they fight over who is the real one !
That sounds like so much fun
Echos are kinda manifestations of forgotten timelines/choices that never came to be so while you could fight over who's real I think the funny option is to basically have slight differences between every echo summoned, like one has a different style shirt, one uses a great sword instead of a great axe that sorta thing
@@ShuTheIdiot
Who reads flavour text anyway? The only important part of that is looks, but even those can be changed.
Something else to keep in mind as the DM: the echo is an object, you can interact with an object for free during your movement or your action. Meaning, if you are pinned down with a sentinel echo knight, there's nothing stopping your creature from picking up the echo and moving it, preventing the opportunity attack.
Unless it intervenes with the Grapple rules since Echos don't just stand in place.
Given the Sentinel Feat... The enemy would have to reach the Echo outside of the Echo Knight's OA range. Otherwise, even the Disengage Action will not be safe... Maybe it's better to use the Dodge Action for enemies.
I would argue the object is probably too large to pick up and move for free without both free hands though? It's a fully medium sized object so I guess the question is as an object interaction can you pick up and move a set of armor? Which I would argue is debatable with size
@@mochristie5419
It's a bit too technical since that would be based on Strength. A character with an Str of 15 or higher would have no problems when carrying their armor set with one hand. Unlike Mage Hand with the Str equal to 10 lb.
But then again... The Echo has no weight... So it's like a corporeal abolition but without the ghost stuff. Especially since it can travel in any direction which includes floating around the air.
So just like balloons, if you try to throw an Echo, then they'll just float immediately after they leave your hands. All it requires is a very powerful wind in order to move the Echo somewhere.
@@mochristie5419 the echo is the same size as the fighter, so it could work with an echo knight fairy or small race
As a DM i probably wouldn't contest the echo's status as an object, but I would probably have to expand the targetting of a *lot* of spells to include objects, as well as attacks of opportunity, as that's more in line with the flavor of the mechanics and what makes sense within the game world. Why can't you cast a ray of frost at a bucket of water until it freezes? (Also, side note, disintegrate should be on that list of spells that can target objects, but I don't know *why* you'd blow that spell to kill a creature with 1 HP... also Scorching Ray says "targets" which is a bit of strange wording considering other spells of the same nature)
Now that you say it, it is kinda weird that Scorching Ray doesn't specify what kind of things it can target like other spells.
Agreed about spells. The fact you can't target objects RAW is dumb I think any sane DM would say that.
I would be fine with Echo not provoking opportunity attacks though. It would open much more fun tactics on the battlefield.
@@antongrigoryev6381 It's more the flavor behind opportunity attacks. "I see an opening something I don't like has left in it's defenses, so I'm going to take this opportunity to attack". If anything fills the criteria for that, regardless of how insignificant the target seems, a creature could decide to take that opportunity attack. Basically any time you don't provoke attacks of opportunity it's because you're not leaving yourself open or the movement happens too fast to react to, neither of which I feel apply to the echo.
The short version is, the grognards who run WotC and don't know how to deal with players being creative, weren't able to accept things like someone using Acid Splash to melt a lock.
Basically, as soon as Mike Mearls was in charge of things, he didn't want anyone else having fun.
@@renatocorvaro6924 I would always allow this. Brilliant use of a spell
I took the unarmed fighting style and flavored it like a stand from Jojo’s, was really fun
Multiclass in astral monk and have 2 stands
@@outbreakperfected9374 add either 5 or 7 levels in cleric for Spirit Guardians and then Guardian of Faith.
@@someusername9591 now that is some crazy stand power.
@@someusername9591 make sure it's trickery domain so you can invoke duplicity and have 3 copies out.
@@hopefulmayhem5744 5head, best part is that you can also cast mirror image on top of that.
Interesting! I've never played with an Echo Knight and just assumed the Echo was a creature of some sort. Interesting to see the interactions Object Vs. Creature has.
Wizard: "I cast Fire Ball..."
DM: "But you can't target the Echo. It's an object."
Wizard: "On my familiar... Near the Echo."
Echo Knight: "The horror."
Wizard: "Would you instead prefer me to use my 5ft cube of pure solar flares on your Echos."
Echo Knight: "You can try."
DM: "Do... Do you two need help?"
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 pretty sure fireball doesn't need to be cast on a creature ;)
@@kitnal4143 it's description says it only damages creatures, though. Nothing about damaging objects, only that it "ignites flammable objects" which I definitely wouldn't consider an echo flammable anyway
@@sarcasmismyfavoriteemotion4180 does it say creatures only take the damage? Pretty sure objects can take damage and a spell is no exception unless it specifies.
@@sarcasmismyfavoriteemotion4180 False. The spell don't say only damage creatures, say it only creatures can make a saving throw. That's are, in fact, bad news to the echo knight, because can't do the saving throw and recibe all the damage.
So, when your party has been captured and the spellcasters are in separate cells, gagged, handcuffed and blindfolded, the Echo Knight could create an Echo outside the cell, swap places, then create and swap places again to get into the spellcasters cell and free them so they can use spells to help with the escape.
as long as the echo knight isn't blindfolded, yeah
@@harrisjones2190 True, but why blindfold the Fighter?
@@jf_kein_k8590 Why not? You're blindfolding everybody else, might as well.
@@someusername9591 No one expects big muscle man having sight related magickal abbilities.
@@arendelarmatige375 Except we have to apply logic here. Just because the Echo Knight is a new class, doesn't mean it's new to that world. If they've been around as long as mages and warlocks, it's natural to assume that they are as well-known. So...blindfold the fighter...just in case.
Currently starting a game where I made a ghostlance. Can't wait to see if you have anything interesting to add.
Naahh... Not really, I just want to cover it because I use to play the old version called Forcelance. The guy who made that build doesn't play dnd anymore but I feel like I owe him because he was waaay ahead of optimization and he was really the person who got me interested in optimization to begin with.
I think that it is very important that you clarified that this is RAI and not RAW, thanks Kobold.
Thanks for the breakdown Kobold, I just sent this to my DM and I expect we'll have good discussion around this video. Keep up the good work.
Putting two levels of war wizard on an echo knight fighter makes for a surprisingly good "summoner" class. Carry around a golf bag full of different weapons and use them as the "summoning focus" for the different "creatures" you can summon. Reflavor the echoes as whatever creatures you want and the different weapons you have access to as a fighter become different natural weapons. War wizard's level 2 tricks are infinitely better on a melee character than on a caster, and the handful of wizard spells helps round out utility for exploration and social.
I’ll do you one up-
Artificer with INT attacks,
Then Echo Knight,
Then War Magic
Pack Tactics, this video is unbelievably helpful right now, thank you for covering this!
well this is handy. My Hexblade Fighter just levelled up on the last session of the year and I'm taking Echo Knight
amazing video as always! Looking forward to the ghostlance, I really enjoyed the gloom stalker videos :)
I've been wanting to play a Fire Genasi Echo Knight for a bit. Mostly for the synergy with Con on my spellcasting stat and Con on Echo Knight's features.
Thank you so much. This made my love Echo Knights so much more.
Relevant note for ruling not went over at 2:49 - Echo may use the players bonuses, but if one rules that as a object moving around it cant be AoOd, then it also still follows the rest of the objects rules making it auto fail Str and Dex saves no matter what your bonuses to them are.
Notable because auto success and auto failure are not the same as changing the roll or roll total.
Also the list of spells includes everything that has a general target rather than specifies "creature", so it includes at least Magic Stone, Catapult, Thunderwave, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Shatter, Lightning Arrow, etc (its mostly just damage spells so difference doesnt matter much as DM should per object rules judge when and how much a object that is hit or generally has anything happening to it should take damage).
two of my favorite characters ive ever built were echo knights, one was suboptimal but fun (trickster domain+ echo + Crossbow expert+ Sharpshooter for advantage on sharpshooter and nova from distance) the other may not have been raw but sentinel PAM and controlling 50 wide hallways and chasing down enemies to stop them in their tracks with movement advantage was so fun
I used this subclass with a character now near and dear to my heart: a lizardfolk which was the reincarnation of the tarrasque, forced to revive now each time in a weaker and weaker form via an ancient curse. What his curser hadn't accounted for was it gaining intelligence and with that came magic. Every now and then when he'd summon his echo it would "glitch" into a shadowy image of his old incarnation and back again, reflecting the might he hungered to return to. Been my favorite fighter subclass ever since.
Hope your exams are going well!
I failed it. I'm taking it again next month.
@@PackTactics I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you do better next month.
I'm currently playing as an echo knight in my first ever campaign. I'm looking forward to the extra questing utility and eventual scouting potential it has while keeping the game fighter-level simple for me. Not as much utility as, say, a Wizard, but I didn't want to deal with managing Spell Slots while I'm just learning the game. And all I had to do was have a long talk about what they would and wouldn't allow for the echo. We basically decided that it's a creature until it isn't (mainly because my DM thought that the lack of flanking advantage and inability to be hit by spells was super dumb), and we're both agreeing to use common sense to ignore dumb stuff that the echo being a creature enables.
The fact that the echo has no resource limiting it is fantastic. I played an echo knight in a “one shot” (that became a three shot) and missed the only session with combat, but still really enjoyed the character because there are so many wacky things you can do having the echo up 24/7. Teleporting at will and having a magic body double are hilariously fun.
Ahhh, my favorite fighter subclass 😊
I really want to try a build with fighter sub class it's amazing. Great video: )
There is one way you can still benefit from flanking while attacking from the Echo's location, and it's only situationally useful.
If you (actual self) are flanking an enemy with one of your (real, not-object) allies, and you choose to make an attack on that same enemy from your Echo's space (that creature that you and another ally are already flanking is within the Echo's reach as well) then when you attack through your Echo's space, because you are making the attack and you are benefiting from flanking vs that enemy, the Echo attack will also benefit from the flanking- even if the Echo isn't in a position that's particularly advantageous.
What's the point? Well, one you can look cool by alternating attacks with your cool Echo. But it's also the only real way to benefit from flanking for your Unleash Incarnation attacks, by RAW. Usually you would try to get advantage from another source instead.
EDIT: I guess it can also be used to have advantage on ranged attacks against an enemy adjacent to you, without having disadvantage on the attack rolls and without requiring a feat to remove said disadvantage. You flank with an ally, then have the echo shoot them with the bow/pistol/whatever from afar. You are flanking the enemy, you make the attacks from the Echo's space, and you gain whichever flanking benefit your DM has chosen to run in their campaign. I don't think the flanking rules even state you need to be threatening the enemy with a melee weapon (only that you need to be in proper positioning with an ally), nor does it specify that only your melee attacks benefit from the advantage on attack rolls.
Would an object flying due to the catapult spell- fly through the echo? Would the echo get a saving throw? Or would it get hit and be forced to take the 3d8? (not a creature-doesn’t get saving throw)
Depends if the echo is considered a "solid surface." If no, no damage, and goes right through. If yes, the last sentence of the spell description happens: "If it strikes something, the object and what it strikes each take 3d8 bludgeoning damage." Emphasis of SOMETHING, not necessarily only a creature, but anything.
Rules as written, no I don't think so, but what you launched would stop... but only because the only time it references the object "striking" something is when it hits a creature, it impacts objects. I think what's more interesting is that technically the echo has no stated weight and is an object, so you could, by raw, catapult it 90 feet in a direction, then move it normally and teleport to it... now if only there was a way to make it survive hitting the target... It's very hard to give an object temporary HP and an abjuration wizard can only shield creatures.... Animate objects can only target nonmagical objects, and the effect describes both the process of creating the echo and the echo itself as magical.
@@kevingriffith6011 The problem with catapulting an echo would be that catapult needs an object between 1 to 5 pounds, and the echo probably doesn't actually weigh anything.
@@someusername9591 That's true... Obviously you need to make the echo wear 1 pound of equipment.
@@kevingriffith6011 That's interesting, would it still be considered only one object? There has to be a rule that clarifies that somewhere right?
An interesting interaction between the echo and a spell would be magnify gravity it doesn't damage it but if the echo tries to move it would have to make a strength check against the spell save dc of the caster or not be able to move
The effect only lasts a round but it would work since it's an object
There’s nothing that says the Echo falls after you move it upward. So you could position it above an enemies head (while using a long weapon) and just stab at them while remaining out of their reach. And also if there’s a flying enemy, you could just keep moving the echo next to them in air and attack them/when they try to fly away they would provoke opp attacks.
Also it works like a lite version of misty step, because you can manifest the echo any place you can see (within 15ft).. need to get inside that locked house? As long as there’s a window you can look through, you can use an echo to teleport inside stealthily
Getting what is essentially a free misty step each round with the bonus of remote attacks makes this one of my favorite subclasses
This is my favorite fighter subclass, all four hands down!
Interesting thing I came across with the echo Knight that I found entertaining, if you're far away from someone and they're prone, you have disadvantage to attack them with your echo, because attacks from more that 5 ft away have disadvantage to hit prone creatures
Hmm, I could logically see ruling this as both ways, but that's interesting.
Except the attack is considered to be originating from the echo's position, not yours. Therefore it'd be from 5 ft away, and not have disadvantage.
my favourite interaction with the echo knight is the armourer artificer. When you attack with your thunder gauntlets if you hit, that target will have disadvantage on any attack that isn't directed at you, therefore you can stand 30+ ft away, have the echo next to them, punch them, now they have disadvantage against the echo (also the thunder gauntlets don't say attacks against creatures, so the whole "echo isn't an object" speel doesn't apply)
Played an Echo Knight for the first time, in a horror campaign. I channeled my life-long love of eldritch and body-horror into the concept. My echo is flavored as a long, somewhat fleshy centipede that attacked me while I was patrolling at night. When I woke up, I found it attached to my body, tapping into my jugular, altering/digging a channel into my body to coil around me and stay somewhat flush to my skin. The lower third fits into a marsupial-like flesh pocket it created, lined with stoma and shunts into my digestive and circulatory systems, having consumed several of my organs to do so. It is now responsible for several of my essential life functions, such as filtering my blood. I creeped out the other three people at the table a few times, mission accomplished.
What they don't know yet is that I'm not just it's host; I'm a womb for it to use, too.
I'm really curious how that works, honestly! Not in terms of the single entity and the centipede controlling you, but how does the centipede work as an echo? Does it leave to hang out as an echo until it dies, and retreats into your body? It sounds cool! I'm just curious.
@@thestoneskipper3377 yeah, pretty much functions as a regular echo, with some homebrewing to bring it more in-line with the parasite concept and our horror setting. I.E., the teleport mechanic is gone, replaced with an ability for the parasite to latch onto the spines of humanoids and temporarily control them (super useful for shenanigans and for creating meat shields, a la Necromancy) also, DM decided to grant me the scouting ability (akin to a Wizard seeing through their familiar) early cuz' the party needs it.
And yeah, I've been flavoring it that as soon as the parasite is hit, it immediately skitters back to me for rejuvenation. The DM has floated the idea of us sharing a hit pool instead, or increasing it's hit points or something, 'cuz it's not an illusion or a magical echo, it's a grotesque quasi-armored centipede-horror with a proboscis for my carotid artery.
Overall, this Geissel de Prietz, this country bumpkin turned town guard turned hostage host-womb for an eldritch exoskeletal horror has become one of my favorite characters I've ever played, and I'm pleased someone else aside from my group seems to dig it.
The echo knight is especially powerful when multi classed with the assassin rogue as you can use your bonus action to summon the echo then attack from its space while both you and it are hidden then have it move out of the 30 foot range to repeat the same thing next turn. What this means is that every round you can gain the benefits of being surprised which for the assassin rogue means every single round you'll get a critical hit sneak attack for 2d8+18d6+5 damage with a long bow or rapier or double if it fails your death strike saving throw.
Surprised condition works only on the first round of combat.
That is insanely powerful, would it be possible be polymorphed first and then get teleported in place of echo later?
I'm guessing no, since you're limited to the actions the creature you were polymorphed into can take.
I don't think so. Polymorph replaces your statblock, so you wouldn't be able to use class features like the echo. The reason something like Call Lightning works when Wildshaped/Polymorphed is because the spell gives you an extra option for your action.
@@agilemind6241 Yes. I wanted to mention how Polymorph is different from somethine like Shapechange that explicitly states that you get to keep your class stuff, but I forgot.
@@someusername9591
True... Echo first, then Polymorph... Or, Polymorph first then take the Eldritch Knight's Action Surge Teleport... If you want to teleport without it being a Spell.
Unless the Action Surge Teleport is also considered an "at Will" Spell.
(Wildshape would be better since Polymorph is as stated above my comment.)
RAW and (I assume) RAI no. Polymorph targets a creature, not an object.
If the Echo is in the area of effect of Shatter it is affected. It cant be targeted by Shatter but it suffers the damage nonetheless
AOE spells for the win... Or cast Fire Ball on your Familiar near the Echo. lol
Objects can be among the targets of spells that require attack rolls (and magic missile) most wooden objects have an AC of 10.
So the Echo is immune to physical IPS damage... I can't wait to merge the Echo Knight with the Eldritch Knight sub class.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 objects can also be the target of a weapon attack, where are they immune to physical ips?
@@Krye33
Some objects are immune to IPS but not to elemental effects.
A metal box is an example of immunity to IPS but not to fire when doused in oil.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 For those objects it is specified. Nowhere does the Echo say it is immune to damage (other than poison/psychic due to object status) only immunity to conditions.
@@Krye33
True... Just cast an aoe damaging spell or throw an oil pot at the Echo to ignite them with a fire spell. Since Echos are not corporeal creatures.
That would mean a box on a catapult spell would not damage the Echo but elemental (not poison) grenades will.
I'm not a big fan of the echo knight, but I like how its balanced, and not another op 5e class
Interesting to hear. To me echo knight is very powerful. Teleports up to 60 ft, extra attacks for burst damage, extra battlefield control. At 7th level an amazing scout with zero risk and then teleport to where you need to get to.
Apart from the extra attacks these abilities can be used over and over.
I would rate it as the best fighter subclass and one of the only non casters I would consider playing (most non casters are far to weak compared to caster classes, so happy to see this)
@@jiminkpen9750
It can???... I thought Echos do not have their own actions. That the player must choose between their Echos or themselves in order to make an attack... Unless the endless attacking (not extra attack) is from a lv18 mechanic.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 I meant unleash incarnation for extra attacks. Yes, it's limited to con modifier per long rest, but is amazing for a round of burst damage.
With a +2 con you can do 6 attacks in a single turn once per long rest at 5th level, with attack, extra attack, unleash incarnation and then all of it again with action surge.
At 5th that is devastating.
Echo Knight: for when you want twice as much Fighter I guess.
Eldritch Echo Knight: Free Teleport after Action Surge on top of switch teleporting with Echos.
A Wizard Multiclass is better for Spells but I prefer Eldritch Knight's mechanics like Weapon Bond.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 you cannot have two subclasses at once tho
@@alyzz9863
DM: "I am the law!"
But true... Fighter/Fighter is not in the rules.
Galaxy brain move: be a tiny creature, make your echo your genielock vessel
Wizard: "I cast Fire Ball on these tiny people."
If you don't have a video already, can you please cover the Artillerist Artificer's Eldritch Cannon and how spells/effects work with it. It's very similar to the Echo, but some DMs want info specific to an ability. Thanks, great vid.
Technically the third bullet point on sentinel works in a different way. If you are next to your echo and an enemy tries to hit it to get rid of it, it would be considered a “target other than you.”
Oh this is really cool! I am gonna give an ability like this to one of my players! Can't wait to see how he uses it :D
I would also like to point out that planar warrior works with attacks that you make through the eco, provided the target is inside the 30 feet range. Since unleash incarnation counts as an attack, if you go for CON build and have extra attack you can score A LOT of extra force damage in one blow.
I remember reading that the teleportation bonus action also doesn't trigger opportunity attack, which makes it great for getting out of a situation in a pinch or performing a hit and run attack. Sadly I can't seem to find a source for that.
Source: teleportation effects dont provoke opportunity attacks. None of them.
@@Fr4nZeR Ah, thank you and here I was looking for a official tweet or something lol.
@@Fr4nZeR
Only the Move Action outside of the Disengage Action triggers Opportunity Attacks... Which, if you're going to cast a certain Reaction Spell then you might as well provoke the Opportunity Attack now, rather than to wait later on.
Working on a echo knight that dips into warlock so it can use an invisible familiar as an eye so the main body can hide while the echo attacks
5:51 : Warcaster does not work, there are two ways it breaks:
First, action cost: the Echo grants you a new condition to use your reaction to make an opportunity attack. Warcaster also needs you to use a reaction to cast the spell. Unless you can somehow get a second reaction you cannot use both features.
Second, the condition of "provokes an opportunity attack from you" is not met: the Echo feature lets you use your reaction to make an opportunity attack, it is never "provoked from you". The feats Polearm Master and Sentinel do specify "Creatures provoke opportunity attacks", the Echo feature is worded differently. The feature would need to be worded as "[...] moves at least 5 feet away from it provoke an opportunity attack from you. You make that attack as if you were in the Echo's space".
This also means that you can take this reaction against creatures who took the Disengage action.
Disclaimer, Caps are for highlighting, not tone.
Manifest Echo states: "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, YOU can use YOUR reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature AS IF YOU WERE IN THE ECHO'S SPACE."
War Caster states: "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from YOU(...)"
If the Manifest Echo specified the ECHO, instead of YOU "can make an OA using your reaction", or if War Caster stated "when a creature MOVES 5 FEET AWAY FROM YOU" instead of "PROVOKES AND OA FROM YOU". then you would be correct. But by RAW and RAI, the info in the video is correct.
This means when the creature provokes an OA from you, that is enough for you to cast a spell with War Caster instead of making a normal attack, so only one reaction is used. Again by both RAW and RAI.
Going back to the "When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it(...)", you cannot forget the wording of the last bit "(...)You make that attack as if you were in the Echo's space". So even if RAW it may be a bit wonky, it still checks out as it's clearly meant to use your reaction and OA.
Technically as stated in the video, it's an object whose only purpose is to function as a secondary valid position for it's owner. It's easier to consider that an Echo Knight is in both places at the same time for the purposes of attacking and OAing a target.
@@antonioperestrelo986 I admit that my arguments depend on your interpretation of what "provokes an opportunity attack" means. My interpretation is that a feature must explicitly say it provokes attacks of opportunity like Sentinel or Polearm Master otherwise it does not qualify.
If your interpretation is that any feature that lets you use your reaction to make an opportunity attack counts as "provoking an opportunity attack" it is fair, but it is not strictly RAW.
RAI is unclear. I think RAI disallows it just like it uses a fixed 5ft range rather than the Knight's reach and does not let them use Polearm Master when an enemy closes up on the Echo.
My DM would easily allow me to use War Caster this way. It's not really breaking anything and you have to build for it, I think it should be allowed. But strictly speaking, RAW is not clear.
See my idea is to utilize the Charger Feat with the Echo to amplify low-tier DPS. Using a Vhuman who starts with Charger then taking Mobile at 4th level(as well as a monk multi-class but I'll save that for a post somewhere).
You start your turn by bonus-action manifesting your echo on your enemy if they're within 30 feet of you. Then you run in a direction of your choosing in a straight line, then swap to your echo, delivering the attack which is +5 to Hit and for Damage. If you then take unarmed fighting and don't have a shield, a point-buy Fighter at this level can hit a damage value of at minimum 1d8(~4)+8 with a 16 strength mod. The key there is the +8 both for attacks and for damage. Alternatively, if you're using a Greatsword with Great Weapon Fighting you can achieve a 2d6+8, giving a roughly equivalent damage value but with a higher potential return on investment(that being a max damage of 12+8).
Once you hit 5th level this gets a bit obnoxious because of your double Fighter attack, meaning you can use this particular form of attack twice in your turn, giving you a straightforward damage-per-turn equivalent to a 3rd level spell(that being either 4d6(approx. 12) or 2d8(approx. 8) + 16 damage). At the absolute minimum with a Greatsword that is a minimum damage per turn of 20 total, assuming(which is FAIRLY likely thanks to the +8 to hit). This would even allow you to save your Action Surge for things like Dodging, Helping, or other potential benefits that can increase your potency without the need to even use magic.
Then, at 6th level you take your 2 ASI into Strength.
7th level to 12th level is ALL going into Drunken Master Monk. Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts are a non-factor. The main things we're shooting for here are Ki Points for Reaction Economy and the Drunken Technique. At 12th level this can bring your total movement up to 65, allowing you to do basically whatever you want and be anywhere on the battlefield you want.
It won't work on so many levels. Charger requires you to use your action on Dash, and then spend a bonus action to make *one* attack. No manifesting Echo or swapping with it on the same turn, no Extra Attack. And Charger doesn't give a bonus to attack roll, only damage.
@@antongrigoryev6381 yeah they pulled like a triple bonus action. I am not sure what the second attack or mobile feat or monk are supposed to be for. Adding bonus actions to my echo knight was about the last thing I wanted so crowded.
As the Eldritch Eco Knight: "BA: Echo + Move Echo behind the enemy + Move into the enemies hit range + A: Shove to Prone + EA: Grapple to cease to cease their resistance + EA: Echo Double Handed Great Sword attack twice with disadvantage on the target + Action Surge Teleport in the air + Thrust my great sword toward the target + Shove the target upward + I grapple the target + Echo attacks with the great sword + I let go of the target just in case I want to provoke their Opportunity Attack for my Reaction Spells."
@@antongrigoryev6381 It gives bonus to hit and damage, but I forgot that it does take an action to dash, which is where Monk comes in.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 eldritch and echo knights are different subclasses. Action surge doesn’t give more bonus action you don’t get teleports from it. Shoves don’t go up.
Never thought I'd see a cross eyed Scottish Kobold. I didn't know I needed this.
Can you use War caster to Heal an ally with Cure wounds?
It just says that if a creature would provoke a attack of opportunity and of the spell can target that creature.
So in theory you could be using your reaction to heal allies as they dip into your range for a while.
Yooo, I never noticed that! That’s actually so smart!
Not really.
It only works on a "hostile creature".
@@The_NickTL
Basically a normal Opportunity Attack but with attacking/debuff Spells... "I cast Fire Ball as a Bonus Action, then I cast Shocking Touch Cantrip as my Action. After my turn ends, I cast Fire Ball as an Attack of Opportunity should they move away from me. And my Eldritch Strike will begin again, on this Reaction." - Eldritch Knight
No, opportunity attacks works only against hostile creatures that leave your range willingly.
Edit: a minor misinformation
@@XvicvicX while your first point about it needing to be a hostile creature is right, War Caster does allow you to cast levelled spells, not just a cantrip.
In our game we allow to use ractions like "Intercept" from the echo's location. Reasoning is that if it can make opportunity attacks then why not opportunity defends xD
going to use echo knight and a homebrew chronomancer subclass
explain the echoes as if they were from another timeline
As someone who has been playing this for 6 or more months yeah this is a great and fun subclass with lots of out and in combat uses and being a fighter for the very first time i dont feel useless out of combat a must play
Eldritch Echo Knight will be an interesting Multi Sub Class for me. But I'll have to compare their Lv3 to Lv20 mechanics just to avoid conflicting choices... It's basically making a new Sub Class for the Fighter without the calculations from multiclassing into other main Classes.
Using this subclass with Fighter rogue archer build. Warforged Skirmisher :)
The echo knight's attack should still get advantage if flanking regardless of raw. If using that optional rule. The fact that it is an object not withstanding. The purpose behind giving advantage to flanking as I understand it is one of economy. All of a combat turn is 6 seconds. The target of the attack is engaged for those 6 seconds by the creature(s) in front of it and possibly to one side. This is already assuming a large amount of dexterous skill on the target’s behalf. Presumably being able to defend and interact with up to 4 tiles worth of opponents in up to 6 seconds. All of whose actions according to the rules are happening simultaneously. So the attacks that happen on the flanking tiles have to essentially go uncountered/undefended. The echoes attack would still come from this indefensible direction in that same 6 seconds. To say that the attack itself doesn't get advantage because it technically originates from an object under control of a creature and not an actual creature is more gimmicky than not and undermines the rationale behind the flanking mechanic.
I'm exited to take a level of War Cleric with my Echo Fighter, so I can make 5 Greatsword attacks at level 4 😁
Throw in totem bear barbarien since both war cleric and echo knight are abilities and thus you can do Them while raging.
Basicly become resistent to All but pyschic and do 4 attacks.
I'll use Eldritch Knight and Echo Knight as a new Sub Class. Or as two separate Sub Classes excluding Fighter specific mechanics from the main leveling system like Action Surge, Extra Attack, and Second Wind unless the Echo has a few changes to each of those core mechanics. Just like Eldritch Knight's free teleport after Action Surge.
RAW and RAI you cannot multiclass into the same class
@@TheAusturtle
I know... There are better options to multiclass with Echo Knight... I just like what the Eldritch Knight has to offer.
It's no different really, given how many subclasses and classes there are now... The only "new" thing about it all is what subclasses will the Wizard get next.
But I wanted to know more about Ghost Lancing. 😥
Ghost Lance was silly in a oneshot. Gunner being a half feat for that no disadvantage at melee helps quite a bit
I’m a dm, and my god, is this beyond overpowered, genuinely OP. If the player is smart, it can completely unbalance all encounters completely. This is just one reason why I ask players to tell me what race, and class, and subclass they are playing, or if they are using home-brew, so I can work out balancing so it doesn’t throw everything out of whack.
This still gets beat by full casters, people just instinctively fear martial having anything actually useful
The immune to all conditions seems like a huge oversight.
According to the text, the fact that the echo is an object precludes it from RECEIVING help (“you can help a creature”) but does not preclude GIVING help. So an echo could not get advantage on its attack from a help action, but could grant someone else advantage on their attack.
The problem is that as an object the echo can’t take an action. So no Help action to give.
Yup. Echo doesn't have turns, actions, or movement of its own. It only can do what is stated in the description.
I personally enjoy mixing this with Astral Monk to become a stand user
Dude YES!!!!
So echo knight gets kinda weird with multi class, cos I don't know the answer to any of these questions I'm about to propose, but it's stupid. It came about when I made a vergil clone in dnd (echo fighter 3/swords bard 3/hexblade warlock 14) and yes he was as op as he usually is where he's introduced to any medium (mvc3, and special edition dmc)
-can the echo knight smite? (Paladin or Eldritch)
-can the echo knight benefit from devil's sight in the spell darkness
-can the echo knight use defensive flourish (or any sword flourish in general)
-does your knight proc sentinel?
-does your knight benefit from hexblade's curse or the invocation cursed blade?
-does your knight benefit from +1 and above magical weapons you are wielding?
-does your knight benefit from the damage boost from fallen aesimar transformation?
Yeah vergil clone didn't need echo knight in his build, but I wanted my doppelganger damn it >.< It raises too many questions with other class features and feats.
I have been wondering about how the 2nd bullet point interacts with bonus action attacks. As written a BA Attack cannot originate from the Echo's location, since that requires an attack made through the attack action. On the other hand, the creature of the subclass frequently runs that part "wrong" as well by letting the Echo Knight make off-hand attacks from the Echo's location.
Second bullet point question. I am an Echo Knight fighter with a short sword and a Bow and arrow. I am facing my enemy and I manifest my echo 15 ft away to my left (bonus action). I have two attacks because of level, I attack with a short sword on one attack and a bow from my echo on my second attack.
Is there anything that says both attacks need to be the same (If my short sword is in hand during manifestation does the echo need to take any action to take out their bow?)/ related in any way?
If I tell the Echo to move 15 more feet away, is that taken off of MY (the Knight's) movement speed that round? I assume that the Echo's movement happens in the Knight's movement phase. If the Knight and the echo are running parallel, they would only make 15 feet of progress?
You'd still be the one making the attack so you wouldn't be able to shoot your bow unless you dropped your shortsword, but if you had 2 different one handed weapons the feature doesn't state that you can't, so most likely you can. Same thing for the movement, nothing says that the echo and knight share movement. AS a matter of fact, I don't think the echo has a movement speed to begin with, as it is an object, the feature just states that you can mentally command it to move.
@@someusername9591
You could manifest one Echo as a Bonus Action + Sheath your sword as a Free Action (Interaction) + Attack then Extra Attack (I do not know if Extra Attack works on ranged weapons excluding "throwing" weapons.) + Action Surge + Attack then Extra Attacks + Provoke the enemies Attack of Opportunity in order to trigger your Reaction Spells until the start of your next turn. Finally, move up to 30 ft... Then repeat the following process for each Echo if applicable.
Just remember that you can no longer use a Reaction by this point until the start of your next turn. And watch out for enemies who end up interacting with your Echos, since Echos are objects.
So what I'm seeing from replies is the echo is an image and it can't have a Bow out If I have a sword out, because I have to be the one to make that change. The object has no ability to make a change like drop sword or pull out a bow.
@@Zr0din You technically can't have a bow and sword out because the bow is a two-handed weapon. It's true that the echo doesn't have the ability to make a change, but it doesn't have to, the PC is the only one that needs to swap their weapons.
@@someusername9591
Technically... You can have two double handed weapons on both hands. You just cannot use it "properly". And on the Dual Wielding side. As long as you do not use your Bonus Action in order to "dual wield attack" your enemy. Then you can carry two non light weapons in each hand, but you can only use one weapon of one hand per turn. Thus, as the Eldritch Knight. You can wield two double handed Great Swords but you must double one of them in order to make an attack with it. Outside of this, you can just Attack or Shove (Kick) your enemies by using the Feat: Tavern Brawler. (Versatile Weapons are bit easier for this, without the Feat: Dual Wielder.)
Although, to what extent can an Echo mimic your equipment? But for video game logic... I would say... That if you have a bow and a sword on both hands, then you cannot use the bow because you need a free hand to "properly" use that weapon. Aka. For the Echo to use arrows with their free hand. Crossbows are in the same technicality.
Do not give your Echo throw able weapons since you will have to make the Echo pick up its Echo Weapon.
Although, Echos do free up options for double handed weapons like the Great Sword.
Everyone gangster until your DM uses Flanking rules (Has happened twice to me).
Before you say "It's an object" or whatever; buddy... the DM let me and the other cleric use a Spiritual weapon to flank, so checkmate.
@@skeepodoop5197
Wait until I merge Echo Knight with Eldritch Knight sub classes, then the enemy will be rolling with disadvantage against my Spell attacks, of which Echo is technically a Spell too.
If you were to use the Echo as a board, could you use it as a flying vehicle?
If you can steer them like a flying vehicle, then yes, given that you're proficient in flying vehicles. Otherwise, no.
The Background: Soldier, has proficiencies with Land Vehicles, so you could force your Echos to "transform" into a personal wagon.
Thank you for the explanation! Also, was that "The Clumsy Lover" I heard in the background?
Yes!
ok so, here's 1 thing I saw:
1. you can move the echo at any direction, including the air
2. vid say echo can't be grappled (fair, it's RAW) or grapple because it's an object and immune to the condition...
3. therefore, you can't make the echo grapple you and then fly by moving it
...here's the thing though, what if it's not grapple
what if you're just on the echo's shoulder, or the echo is planking horizontal and you're riding it like a magic carpet/broom which is ALSO AN OBJECT... the fact that it occupies a space and can body block is what makes this possible I think-- if it's like an astral projection of some kind, this wouldn't be a thing...
Can someone argue about this with me cus I don't like that my idea might be right... this feat has so much (???) moments that it's just-- please, someone tell me this can't be done
cus if it can be done, my DM is gonna have a headache when the next campaign comes around lmao
Ties with Eldritch Knight for my Favorite Fighter dip. Especially on a high Con, oh baby you cookin with gas on that dip.
Soulknife next please. It has some interesting wording with the Psychic Blades. Ex: "Whenever you take the Attack action, you can manifest a psychic blade from your free hand and make the attack with that blade. " Meaning that if you take the attack action with a hand axe for example, you can make a second attack with the psychic blade as well and it doesn't consume a bonus action.
Further more. If you use action surge you can attack up to 5 times. hand axe, psychic Blade 1d6 (twice), Free action, drop the hand axe, Bonus action, 1d4 psychic blade.
I think the fact that it says "THE attack", and not "another attack" means that you still only get one attack.
@@someusername9591 you may be right about that. Although, it doesn't count as two weapon fighting. So you can add your mod to the damage of the second attack.
@@oldmanvox3897 There is no second attack though. Just one attack, the one you make with the psychic blade. If you take the attack action with a hand axe instead, then you are choosing not to attack with the psychic blade.
I interpreted "your reach" as in your arm length. If you were a bug bear, your echo would have longer arms like you
What about leaving an echo on a ledge while you grapple someone off the edge then change places with your echo 👍
Eldritch Echo Knight (Fighter Sub Classes): Tackles Goblin off the cliff. Uses Echo to teleport even high off the cliff. Then Action Surge Teleport back to the edge of the cliff. Watch as the Goblin falls to its demise. Take a short rest after.
I've only see two ways multiclassing has worked in D&D. Either, you take the 1st level of one class to a specific higher level and do the same with the next class. Or, you take the mechanics/spells specific to the base level that you would be if you didn't multiclass. Excluding Spell Slot calculations.
With that rule, I'm not sure how multiclassing works within the same main Class. Ex: Multiclassing in Eldritch Knight and in Echo Knight.
I can see the second variant of multiclassing working well. But the first variant has the same questions if you multiclass a Fighter with a Monk, in regard to their extra attack mechanics. Do they keep one? Does it stack? Or is it two choices to make during your turn?
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 What are you even on about
@@ProfX501
Nothing... It's an example on what you can do with the Teleport abilities from the Eldritch Knight and the Echo Knight, respectively.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 A pointless exercise because multi-subclasses are not a thing
@@ProfX501
Multiclassing Fighter/Fighter only exists under the "new class" limitation. Outside of that, the rules for multiclassing functions in the same way.
Regardless, both the Eldritch Knight and the Echo Knight teleporting abilities are the same, mechanically.
Honestly, I think using a bow with this is a really cool archer build.
Agreed. The potential for mischief is quite appealing. Especially once you hit level 7, and can see through the Echo, AND attack through it...from 1000 feet away?
@@arekpetrosian4965
Does the Echo act like a portal for the arrow or does the Echo release its own arrow? Since 1000 ft is far beyond Long Bow range.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 Well, it says that the attack can originate from your space (far beyond bow range, I agree), or it can originate from the Echo's space.
@@arekpetrosian4965
Portal Arrows...
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 Basically, yeah.
So you can't grapple it... okay. Item interaction and I grab the echo.
Right? This works, right?
I once played with someone who thought the Echo got an action that was also doubled with action surge on top of unleash Incarnation and he was making 12 attacks per turn at lvl 10
Yikes. Did your table run with it for the entirety of your campaign or did they ever get corrected?
@@someusername9591 he got eaten by zombies before it became a problem
@@pinkliongaming8769
lol
As a note if you find yourself fighting an echo knight and they start spamming echoes all over the battle field your best option is to use magic missile. Multiple targets, guaranteed hits and the echos have a health of 1 so a first level spell can remove 3 turns of setup. I've personally been wanting to do a swarm ranger echo knight. Having the hunters mark or hexblade curse for on hit damage boost is lovely and I personally love the flavor of my swarm issuing forth and coalescing into a mirror of myself. Only unfortunate thing is you can't cast through the echo like you could with a familiar so no vine whip from the echo.
But only one echo can ever be summoned at a time, so that’s not really necessary. Magic Missile would be quite effective at removing that one echo, though, good call!
Ohh I forgot about later levels adding more echo, dang!
@@miostiek yep, echo knights with sentinel become prodigious battle field controllers. Hence the swarm ranger being able to push it around on opportunity attacks and sentinel to lock them down after the push. The swarm push is once per turn on an attack so it works on opportunity attacks as well.
Polearm master + sentinel echo knight makes a near unpassable wall
PAM's opportunity attack when they enter your reach doesn't work with Echo, if you meant that.
@@antongrigoryev6381
Do Feats and Spells even carry over to Echos?
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 Echo isn't a copy of you. It isn't even a creature. The only things Echo has and can do are described in the feature description. It isn't really "you in two places". It's just a reference point of your attacks, basically extending your reach, so all magical weapons and attack bonuses will work.
However, that's all; Echo doesn't get any defensive bonuses from feats or abilities, no extra reaction attack triggers (like from PAM or Sentinel) will work as well. It can't be used to cast spells either.
Gloom stalker Ranger with a 3 fighter multiclass to get Echo Knight sounds like a good chassis to recreate Talion from the LotR games 🤔
Flavor the Echo instead of grey to be blueish/whitish Celembrimbor.
So why does the grapple immediately end? I'm reading through the grapple rules and the echo knight and can't seem to spot it.
Also, what does the fact that it can't be grappled have to do with its inability to maintain a grapple?
Is the Echo a ghost box or something???
Echo itself doesn't grapple; It's you doing the attack through Echo's space. And since the enemy isn't within 5 ft of you, the grapple ends.
@@antongrigoryev6381
It's great for stopping non magically flying creatures.
Could you multi class moon Druid become an elemental and then manifest your echo as the elemental form?
"You are not the echo"
"The echo is just an anchor for your abilities. It's still you attacking"
Hmmm...
If you multiclass your Echo Knight to be a subclass with a companion, then when you summon your Echo does your Echo have an Echo companion? Like a Ranger Beast Master with animal companion. Casters with a familiar inherently tied to them? Or in my case, I'm building a potential Echo Knight/Artificer Battle Smith that has a Steel Defender. The companion is an integral part of the class.
In my case, the concept in this - Warforged, so my character appears as a construct. His steel defender is a construct humanoid and same size/build, and it looks like him (except less gear of course). It looks at first glance like there are 2 of me. Then I summon an Echo. Now with my echo there, it looks like there seems to be 3 of me. Or... does my Echo have its inseparable companion Steel Defender also, in which case it now looks at first glance like there are 4 of me? The real me, my Steel Defender, my Echo, and my Echo's Steel Defender? I have searched online and cannot seem to find ANY place that even begins to address this.
A pleasure to meet you; I am Buzzby "the Several."
Wouldn't spells like Ray of Frost that just specify "target" instead of creature and object affect it as well?
Ray of Frost specifies that a "blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range." So probably not.
Do all damage spells only target creatures?
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 most do, there are an incredibly low amount that don't specify that the target needs to be a creature.
@@someusername9591 This is why we have RAW vs RAI. I don't think any sound DM would prohibit you from targeting an object with an attack spell. Except one that does physic or poison damage.
@@samuelcooper3664 Yeah, we’re on the same page. Psychic btw.
3:05 : how much does the Echo weight? Can we use Catapult on it?
3:21 : The echo doe not take any action. I think the point you were trying to make is that it cannot benefit from the Help action, or rather you cannot benefit from a Help action as if you were in the Echo's space.
The video is correct about the third bullet point of Sentinel: you are not the Echo.
1. The feature does not specify a weight for the echo. I would assume it's none, or next or none as it is basically a translucent image thing. Certainly it wouldn't fit the pound requirement to catapult it.
2. That's certainly the case, but I think the point he was trying to make was that you couldn't use the echo to give out a Help action in any way.
@@someusername9591 100% help is an action.
@@neoikake help is an action, one which the echo can’t take. As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure it can’t take any actions since it’s an object.
Its a good video except I disagree with it not being able to move through terrain. It feels deliberate that when you summon your echo, it can only be in an unoccupied space "you can see" vs you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction. No mentioned of line of sight, or not being able to move through obstructions, terrain, etc. That to me seems like you can move it in ANY direction whether there are obstacles like walls or doors in the way or not. If you move into say a mountain or a wall that turns out to be 20 feet thick and its inside the wall or mountain at the end of its movement, it just dies.
Thats my interpretation at least.
The vergil subclass
If when you attack, you are treated as being in the echo's space, this would mean that when making attacks through the echo, you could benefit from flanking/pack tactics, yes?
It's only opportunity attacks that treat you as if you were in the echo's space. I imagine that by extension it treats you as if you weren't in your space, but I honestly don't know. I'm not sure that there's any rule that states you can't occupy 2 spaces at once and it doesn't say "as if you were in the echo's space instead of your own". I don't know how you'd set up a flanking opportunity attack, but it might be possible. Sounds like a headache to adjudicate.
@@aurtosebaelheim5942
Simply... Imagine if the Echo was an NPC helping the Echo Knight... Thus, can only creatures impose Flanking Disadvantage?
Since Opportunity Attacks only trigger if the creature Moves away from the usual 5ft melee hit range... Thus, do Echos have their own Actions or do they mimic the Echo Knight's actions? Either way, the enemy target must survive the Opportunity Attack from the Echo Knight and the "Echo" Opportunity Attack from each Echo.
Are Fizban's dragonborn able to use their breath weapon from the echo's space, similarly to how it is possible to grapple in that way?
"You are not the Echo"
Then why does Sentinel work? It says "When *you* hit a creature-"
I get it is still your opportunity being triggered, but I'm uncertain if the _you_ there is saying _you_ have to deal the damage or simply the action caused _by you_ from _your_ opportunity attack.
The echo never deals damage, it is merely a reference point. When a creatures within 5 ft of the Echo moves away you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against it. You are the one making the opportunity attack and dealing damage so Sentinel applies.
@@fenec250
Ah... So it's not an Echo which can "copy/paste" your attacks... Or is it?
With Polearm Master you can extend your Opportunity Attack range to 10 ft (about). If you dip into Eldritch Knight Sub Class, then you can apply disadvantage from Blooming Blade or Green Flame Blade.
Unless Spells cannot be done with Echos.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615
Mechanically speaking the Echo does nothing. You can still flavour it however you want.
If you are wielding a weapon with Reach enemies provoke opportunity attacks when they move away from 10ft of you, no matter if you have Polearm Master or not. PAM adds that they provoke opportunity attacks when they enter your reach as well. Manifest Echo ignores both of these things, it only lets you make an opportunity attack when they move away from 5 ft of your echo no matter your weapon or feats.
You cannot dip into Eldritch Knight if you are an Echo Knight since they are both Fighter subclasses, unless you homebrew it. You can still get those cantrips from other dips or feats.
Manifest echo specifies you can make attacks from the Attack action from your Echo's location. You cannot attack with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade from your Echo's location since it's not part of the Attack action, unless maybe if you are a Bladesigner wizard using their special Extra Attack feature.
The vast majority of spells cannot be cast from your echo. The few exceptions are those that target something "you can see" while you are seeing trough your echo, and you must still meet any other restrictions (like range) from your own location.
@@fenec250
I see...
Multi Classing between sub classes of the same class is no differently to multiclassing in sub classes in different classes. You only take the sub class specific mechanics and not to double dib in the core mechanics of the main class. So no "2x Extra Attack" on the first Extra Attack availability to the Fighter.
But like all multiclassing... Check with your DM.