Slight mistake, If you pick up warcaster at level 1 then you can't go fighter at all because you dont meet the prerequisite. Also for those who keep bugging me about EB, yes I can do this. mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/908469121502736384
Fighter should still be picked first just to unlock heavy armor & shield proficiencies, though. Wisdom saving throw proficiency is good, but it can be taken as a feat later, and you'll still have the Con saving throw.
@@Spiceodog I do think the echo is magical in nature so it doesn't take damage. "A nonmagical object that isn't being worn or carried also takes the damage if it's in the spell's area."
If you take both you can repel them as soon as they reach the echo. Now you don't have to worry about melees at all instead of after they walk away. That leaves it open to attacks. Read them both it works. After all why would they avoid it if they can kill it.
@@Sir-Pleiades I prefer 2 levels in Fighter just for the Action Surge, that way my Wizard can eventually still get Spell Mastery and cast infinite Misty Steps and Feather Falls.
@@theuncalledfor fighter dip for action surge only gets better due to the way action surge is worded. Because you get 2 action surges at character level 17
@@donovangunther4538 Action Surge lets you cast two full spells, not just cantrips, leveled spells, in a single turn. And it recharges on a short rest. I don't care if my wizard never gets two Action Surges, he can cast a ninth level spell and an eighth level spell on the same turn, RAW!
But you have to remember that a lot of rulling for it is... not clear. Tabletop advise that you first talk with your DM if the stuff works like that becasue it's Mat Mercer class and guy is great DM but he makes dog shit mechanical stuff.
I made a shadar kai shadow sorcerer echo knight with platemail and a pike... With all the specific feats, racial and class features, choice of spells and choice of meta magic I have at my disposal I'm so freaking optimized my enemies want to 🤮 😅😂🤣
PAM and Crusher with a Quarterstaff can do one 5ft push per turn. Like Sneak Attack, you get to use the Crusher push again on an opponent’s turn, so it’ll combo well with PAM opportunity attacks. It’s a less extreme version of something similar to this. More like the old Forcelance than the new Echo Knight version, but still pretty cool. Almost like thick Boba Fett swinging his gaffi stick. The combo doesn’t need to invest heavily into spell casting to function at a basic level. Just two feats, so it’ll work as early as level 4 if you start with a feat. Something probably worth getting is Dueling fighting style for some solid damage on your own turn with the PAM bonus attack. Battlemaster might be an option for some OK burst damage and then just holding the line. Maybe go Paladin for Improved Divine Smite at higher levels-you could go straight class Pally and non-optimize, but still have a lot of fun with reactions and pushing. Sentinel feat also adds in well, since 0 speed on an enemy after a 5ft push might be enough. Or go Eldritch Knight for Warcaster Booming Blade reactions. BB with the staff is closer to RAI for polearm attacks even if Eldritch Blast is ok RAW. Variant Human or Custom Lineage and 6 levels in Fighter gets you all 3 feats. Pushing someone away and maybe they have to trigger the BB secondary damage to get into melee isn’t too shabby, but it gives the DM more choices and a much smaller distance to cover than two 10ft pushes.
I would really love for more set ups for it. Even if it fails, there's one thing (out of the many I want to do) that really could end enemies with proper teamwork. And that's Hold Person and Hold Monster, being able to use those as a reaction is something I've wanted to do, but that I haven't done yet. It might not be the best strategy, but hey, getting possibly more milage of the paralyzed before the enemies turn (I assume they succeed the save, my luck is horrible) sounds tempting to really ruin day of whatever you are fighting. And yes crits are only for people within 5 feet, but hey, I play mostly gishes so...
This sounds like an amazing build. I'll certainly have to look into it when I get around to starting this in another campaign. Right now, though, I'm getting back into the DM chair with my Tuesday group, so it's time to nearly TKP my players each game, just to keep things interesting. 😈
I’ve been waiting on this video ever since he teased it last month. So glad it’s finally finished and even better than I thought. Well done, as always Kobold you are very quickly becoming one of my favorite D&D optimization build channels. Keep up the good work.
My favorite use is Command, because the Grovel command makes them fall prone and end their turn. And since it's an opportunity attack, they're doing this right in front of you.
One of my favorite moments in game was when my friend who was playing a Warlock used his warcaster reaction to mental prison a really big enemy who was trying to flee. It was fucking awesome. 👌
See this kind of thing is why I love optimizing. Taking a feature you’d think of as minor or just a bonus, and making the build around it. It becomes something unique to your character while still being effective. Sincerely, -A guy who plays a suturefly companion beastmaster ranger
There is an interesting later build option you could take revolving around the additional warlock invocations of grasp of hadar and lance of lethargy, at higher levels with additional eldritch blasts you get HUGE control of wherever your enemy is at all times, being able to move it both away and towards you, you get a lot of crowd control and synergy with any other casters and environmental hazards in combat with the added benefit of reducing your targets speed until the end of your next turn, essentially forcing them out of combat for the entire combat
I love the distinction between creature and object with the echo knight. Taking Devils Sight as an invocation and casting Hunger of Hadar would allow you to push a creature into the circle, put your echo knight inside where it suffers no effects and can use your reaction at advantage to keep enemies inside taking cold and acid damage while they have disadvantage on all attack rolls and can’t cast many spells.
@@ShakeTonMilshake Hunger of Hadar doesn’t produce magical darkness. It’s an inky void. Not even truesight can see through it. Only tremorsense and blindsight. Many many people get this wrong.
I love this. I have been eyeing the echo knight to play. I might just build one with a 2 level dip in warlock for all shenanigans this offers. You sir are a scaly treasure.
Quick note: you can't frighten enemies via your form of dread on an opportunity attack, as the feature says that you can do it "Once on each of *your* turns".
right!? first thing i thought of too. i've ran a couple undead warlocks (one melee multiclass, one straight class). Took war caster on both. Our table (including me) read that feature as a once per (your) turn effect. not as part of your reaction. To compare, sneak attack says, "...once A turn" allowing you to trigger it on opportunity attacks. Love it when "super optimized" builds use a busted 3rd party subclass and then just completely overlook RAW
@@theangler1922 ill admit i hardly watched it. i built this same guy right after undead warlock came out. (slight differences of course as i didnt know about the "famous ghostlance") but then i kept reading about this build and decided to check it out only to find its something ive done before. Its fairly good, but i have no idea whats so special about it and i played it in a 9 month long campaign. sure it offers decent control, but most of the control comes from just the base warlock. with this build, you have a middling DC at best. many enemies of decent strength are immune to fear or have resistances. so you have MAYBE a 50% chance to cause fear on a single grunt per turn, big deal. Im not trying to belittle anyone, but for all the hype around this build, i dont get it, its a meh build at best
@@theangler1922 I undertand all of that, as ive played it before lol. I was responding to the guy above me who i had incorrectly assumed had watched and understood the video himself. But i came here after reading dozens of people talking about how amazing it is on forums. And the fact treantmonk and pack tactics made a video on it, i had my hopes up. Its just a repelling blast warlock thats a fraction better than baseline and needing a busted 3rd party subclass to do it. And i hardly ever build a warlock without repelling blast as i love it. Im not trying to be an a$$, i just read SOOO much hype and from personal experience, its meh. Now for flavor, go for it. I usually choose flavor over optimized anyway. I did a straight Fathomless with Lance of Leth, repelling blast, and agonizing blast. Feels like it fits a very similar profile but doesnt require any saving throws and hits more reliably. and since straight class, get ASI and invocations much faster. It pretty much guarantees locking down any melee enemy of your choice, Even a Terrasque. worst case, a dip into a cleric or fighter gets you your armor if really needed. overall a stronger build IMO.
@@theangler1922 1 level dip vs 3 levels, huge difference and if you cant understand that i cant help you. and while the echo does have utility but nothing that other effects or spells cant do. Plus, fathomless has utility too, just different. I know cuz ive played 40-50 hours with the echo knight subclass. get pact of the chain and you just covered about every "utility" thing the echo can do. The echo dies constantly too to any attack which sure is fine, or AoE. and yes there is the whole "since it is an object it doesnt get effected by AoE" but if you rule that essentially nothing effects echo knights except for direct martial attacks, its completely broken. And that isn't a good build. Gives a couple extra attacks and can occupy space but cant be effected by a fireball? Im genuinely happy my DM didnt rule it that ay as its frankly idiotic if you have an IQ above 60. it's a busted subclass from a 3rd party publisher. If you rolled echo knight into "official" subclases, i dont think there is much doubt its arguably the most busted subclass there is (not best class, just subclass) There are dozens of broken 3rd party classes that blow this away. And your defense is all the stuff the echo can do is what makes this build work. I mean the subclass was built purely for NPCs in Mercer's setting and we act like it's a comparable build option 🤪 . I mean if your table just lets players pull busted subclasses in with zero common sense, then good for you little buddy, but im glad im not at that table. BYE!
I feel like this manifest echo combo works really well with the earth genie warlock which gets spike growth and deals a little bit of extra damage which is bludgeoning so if you wanted you could take crusher for more pushing.
I love this idea and the mechanics behind it! This video is already a couple of years old so you didn't have access to some of this but here is one of my takes on a more modern variant: Take the Polearm Master feat and use a halberd so that your reach is now 10 feet, and take the new Path of the Giant subclass for Barbarians so that your reach increases by 5 feet. This means your total reach is now 15 feet. You also become Large if you are medium or smaller. This actually matters as 15 feet reach on a medium creature covers 48 squares around you on a grid, and 15 feet reach on a large creature covers 60 squares around you on a grid. You reach remains the same, 15 feet, but because a large creature takes up a 4x4 area on a grid it allows you to cover/reach more squares... where even more enemies could have a chance to enter your reach and trigger an AoO. You're also gonna need to be able to cast Eldritch Blast with the invocation Repelling Blast at the very least (you're probably gonna also want Agonizing Blast). When an enemy breaches your 15 foot bubble of reach you get an AoO. Now I should mention here that you would also need Warcaster to switch from using an AoO to casting a spell with our reaction. Cast Eldritch Blast and push the enemy back 10 feet so they are now 25 feet away. Since you need at least 3 levels in Barbarian and a way to cast Eldritch Blast with the Repelling Blast invocation you are probably gonna need 2 levels in Warlock also. Overall this will mean you are a minimum of a 5th level multiclass (Barb 3/Warlock2) and your Eldritch Blast will have two beams which means you could leave your enemy standing 35 feet away... on their turn... as a reaction. How much of their movement did they use to get to within 15 feet of you before you 'blasted them away' and how much do they have left after finding themselves 35 feet distance from you?
I can definitely see DM's ruling that the attack has to originate from the echo, since the only reason you get opportunity attacks is because they're turning their back and running away from you; "you" being the echo. I read this as you attacking from the echo's space. Even if that was the ruling, Sentinel would still work, and so would Booming Blade! The Echo Knight alone is crazy good! Can't wait to try some variation of this build, I love the roleplay opportunities! You are a living nightmare, conjuring shadows and blasting people. 😄
Actually sentinel only works if you also have to cast from the echo's space, since otherwise you have to make an arbitrary distinction between if your feats are only applied to you, your echo or if there is a specific list for each... Which is not how the manifest echo feature is written.
Usually I see it recommended as the second invocation to take after Agonizing Blast. It's true that some players stop after Agonizing Blast, but if you invest into EB beyond that, then Repelling Blast is typically the next one you'll get, and often the _only_ other EB invocation you'll get. It's unfortunate that Grasp of Hadar and Lance of Lethargy can't be stacked with multiple beams like Repelling Blast can, but TBH it would probably be overkill if you could stack them all together.
Since the echo knight is an object, you can interact with it as an object, including grabbing it and using it as an improvised weapon (a club or a boulder, depending on size) and using it to beat the caster for a minimum of 1d4+str bonus, problably more, depending on how close your echo resembles a weapon your enemy has proficiency with.
this is what i would of been doing if a player tried to use this build on me. "ok so the enemy Barb picks up your echo and bashing you with your own echo" prevents triggering the entire build.
I love the echo knight and wanted to use it somehow. This is hilariously interesting, but it seems you need a dm that is willing to get nitty gritty with all the nuances
I think getting warlock 5th level is definitely something to consider even if you continue to go for sorcerer simply to get agonising blast simply due to how often you will be using eldritch both as actions and reactions
Amazing video as always Kolbold. Question though: what's your opinion on Genie Pact warlock for this build instead of undead. I building this right now actually and was looking at warlock 3 fighter 3 then sorcerer to get spike growth and possibly crusher feat for more movement eventually. Do you think this has merit over undead?
Genie lance works too. Its a better straight warlock build. Like its up to you at the end of they day! Whats brilliant about this is it works with a lot of things and Im glad you noticed the genie way because I remember many months ago we talked about it.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I have been told before that if you’re holding a whip and have war caster you can cast a spell at someone who leaves your 10 foot whip range or your 5 foot fist range because op attacks triggers for leaving the weapons range, and not for leaving 5 foot range. So holding a whip means you threaten a wider variety of movement around you in a larger area. But reading echo knight this doesn’t work on your echo because manifest echo does specify that the op attack triggers for leaving 5 feet of the echo, even though the echo would be able to make that attack with a weapon with reach, the reach doesn’t extend the range of the echo’s op attack. But if you have war caster you might as well hold a whip yourself. Even if you lack proficiency, it is a tool to make the threat of your op attacks cover a larger area. My clerics use it, so that they can walk up to someone with a 5 foot reach and command, if the command works they stay still and get an op attack, and if it fails they walk away and take no op attack. Having proficiency in the whip is redundant. It’s just there so I can chain commands
The echo could reasonably be dealt with by catapult, but it depends how the dm rules it's weight. It is solid in that it can attack and fill a space, but it is a translucent grey image so it can't weight that much. If it is ruled to weigh between 1 and 5 pounds it could be catapulted by an enemy wizard to either attack your party or simply fling it 90 feet away, destroying it without a save.
Unless echoes are a common quantity in the game world, most monsters I would take it would be unfamiliar with just what the echo is, be it another creature or an illusion or something else. But provided they know it's an object either during the fight itself or because they were aware of its capabilities before hand, a melee monster could just use an item interaction to pick up the echo and walk towards the party without provoking opportunity attacks and overall not sacrificing action economy. Alternativey, they could throw it away, which would either be part of their item interaction or might require an attack as determined by the DM.
“This build doesn’t work with gnomes!” Hah, Pack Tactics is getting into character! Jokes aside, this build seems like fun. Might go the route of Fighter 3/Warlock X someday.
This is my current build and it's so cool. Although I went Dragonborn for my race and started as a fighter for backstory purposes, I'm currently at level 6 and am fully online sans sorcerer levels. I'm going to be going all in on DSS for the. Unfortunate I won't be level 9 until I finally get web, but the synergy here is just too absurd. I have no problem letting the other PCs in my party get access to absurd spells and damage, if it means I get to completely and utterly control the battlefield.
Love echo Knight (but that creature/object nonsense is hanky). In our games we changed up the echo to match the pet classes like Drake warden and beast master. Having a moderately bulky echo makes for a much more enjoyable gameplay experience (for both player and DM). Even added that every second attack gains advantage if striking the same enemy between yourself and the echo on top of the level 7 echo avatar feature.
If it eats an enemy's attack, that's still an attack that you or one of your party members didn't take. You can resummon it as a bonus action at no cost, so this is actually a decent tanking ability. If enemies always try to kill your echo, then while you might not get to use it as much, it's actually probably being more useful by mitigating attacks.
Wanted to comment here to endorse the build as I got to use it in a one-shot, it's really great! Personally I really like taking warlock 3 for the imp familiar then going rest sorcerer. Divine is great for the cleric list, clockwork is great too for the flexibility but personally I would choose lunar subclass. The spells aren't all that great but 6th level lunar boons feature helps stretch out those sorcery points for when you wanna quicken an eldritch blast or subtle a big spell you can't afford to be counterspelled. *or you could beg your DM for a bloodwell vial, that could be called minmaxing
Im happy you had fun! Theres many build opportunities in this single build so theres a lot of replay value. I still haven't found a build thats as unique as this.
Actually the target doesn't lose the grappled feature. If you have a method at range to grapple they remain so. There is literally a tattoo to do that 15 feet away.
Small comment: Fireball/firestorm also affects the echo, as it sets all objects on fire that aren't worn or carried. As being on fire should deal some damage to the object and the echo only has 1 HP it destroys the echo
Sorry but that is incorrect. Fireball states "It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried." Nowhere does it state that an echo is flammable, so it would not be destroyed. Plus, there's no solidified rules on the damage being set on fire does.
"It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried." This is more up to the DM if a translucent, gray image is flammable but in my book no.
Im not sure if things like desintigrate or shatter would affect the echo, they specify "Non-magical objects" I'm guessing the echo is magical btu the DM might rule otherwise.
I do not see "being on fire" or "burning" as a condition in my books, do you have a reference on what page it is defined? In case this condition exists I'd agree that the echo would be immune. I'd also agree that it is DM decision (as many things in 5E) whether or not the image is flammable, it might rely on how the image is flavored. However I do think there is a reasonable rules arguement that it should be flammable. Items in general do not specify whether they are flammable, so one might argue that objects are flammable unless they have immunity to fire damage. Quoting from the rulestext for object stats: "When time is a factor, you can assign an Armor Class and Hit Points to a destructible object. You can also give it immunities, resistances, and vulnerabilities to specific types of damage. " Thus, when an objects defenses become relevant for combat (e.g. because it gets fireballed and its continued existance is important to the adventure) the DM decides what hitpoints the item (e.g. grappling hook) has, how much AC and which immunities (e.g. fire, thus making it not flammable, or nonmagical slashing because a sword won't cut through solid metal). However, the rules for the object "echo" regarding combat are already defined in the feature as its combat relevance is expected. While AC and HP and (condition) immunities are defined, no additional immunities like fire immunity (making it not flammable) are specified. I thus conclude that it can take damage from fire, making it flammable. Otherwise one could argue that it also is immune to (nonmagical) bludgeon/piercing/slashing damage, as a hologram style echo from the past cannot be affected by mundane weapons. It is also true that there are no rules for items being on fire, however I'd say that at least 1damage/round (enough to kill the echo) would be around the minimum if considering rules where burning IS defined (e.g. fire elemental 1d10, oil 5 flat, web 2d4), who all deal considerable damage per round.
I actually took a bit of inspiration from this and went 17 levels Arcane Trickster Rogue and 3 level Echo Knight Fighter. This character was probably the slipperiest I've ever used. Because of the Steady Aim Feature from Tasha's together with the ability to cast Invisibility, Minor Illusion and Mage Hand Ledger Domain, I can pretty much use the Echo as a stand in for my character in fights while they hide in plain sight, cast spells to mess with the enemy and let my Echo pretty much constantly slam enemies with Ranged Sneak Attacks. If you're wondering where Minor Illusion comes in, I usually use it as a sort of camouflage to blend into the background once I'm out of line of sight and then use the hide action while remotely attacking with my Echo over and over again lol
I accidentally made a character like this after seeing your echo knight video, except I went aberrant mind sorcerer level 5 after getting war caster and echo knight from fighter. Dissonant Whispers is fun.
I’m building something similarish for my next campaign 6 Echo Knight, 14 first vampire warlock (Grim Hollow) It’s for a darker campaign and I’m very excited to play it.
At 11:02 you say that the condition of grappled ends immediately, but you are not under the grapple condition when you grapple someone else, *they* are. I repeat, the grappled condition only applies to the person being grappled, not the grappler. If that was the case then you wouldn't be able to move when you grapple someone as your speed would be 0, which is of course not true as we know that you can move while grappling someone, assuming they don't grapple you back of course. All this means is that they cannot grapple it back as it is immune to being grappled, but it can maintain the grapple just fine. It is also immune to being incapacitated as it is immune to conditions, so that won't end the grapple. So is it because of the 3rd clause for grappling where "the creature is no longer in reach of the grappler(you)" and so the grapple ends? That could be the answer, though the fact that it was not "removed" as you were never there is weird, and it just feels unclear on which reason you are saying that the grapple immediately ends. Again, per RAW, you are *NOT* under the grappled condition when you grapple someone else. They are the only ones subjected to the grappled condition unless they grapple you back, which again the echo is immune to all conditions *and* an object so it cannot be grappled per RAW
Not sure about the grapple part. You reduce the enemy movement to zero. As soon as the grapple breaks it's movement is no longer zero. At no point does it state it's zero for the rest of the turn. The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
This is assuming enemies don't simply pick up the echo as part of their turn and move it with them, preventing an attack of opportunity. As you mentioned, the echo is an object, so phb 190: "You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack." Admittedly, I would reserve this counter for intelligent enemies, but it's worth mentioning.
@@PackTactics lol, that's very true! But it's not a grapple and it seems to follow RAW. You can even go a step further: have your PC stand on the echo. No grappling or object interaction required and infinite flight. Hmmm, am I missing something, or did we discover a new broken strategy?
Just did some more digging. Apparently, any object or magical force must have a carrying capacity specified (mage hand, bigby's hand, etc) or it defaults to not being able to carry anything. Since the echo has no such description, it can't carry anything, hence my original point of it being movable as an object interaction is still valid.
This video is still super helpful! I was trying to see would work. I Just realized things I can do with jumping while grappling creatures and dropping them to the ground, then falling on them. At least 3 lvls of echo knight are going it o that build. hahahaha!
So, with the third bullet point of war caster it seems to imply that the spell has to only be able to target one creature and eldritch blast has multiple targets
The only thing is, that you can't use eldritch blast with war caster once you get multiple beams. It isn't just that you can only target that one creature, the spell itself has to only have the ability to target a single creature. Since you can technically target a different creature with each beam then you can't use EB with war caster.
@@cusillo6976 oh, huh, I just found a sage advice that says they can, though I could have sworn I read a different SA/actual in book text that specifically mentioned Eldritch Blast past level 5 is not viable for war caster. I stand corrected lol.
Isn't there a flaw in this build that is big? Wouldn't getting multiple beams that can target multiple people then invalidate Eldritch Blast for War caster? I guess that bullet point can be interpreted as you only going all in on that creature but you can't war caster Fireball even if it would only get that one creature so guess up to your DM in the end. But by RAW don't think this works.
You're confusing it with Twinned Spell, which says that in order to be eligible for it, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. Warcaster only states that it must only target the creature that provoked the OA, without ever restricting what the spell used would normally be able to target.
Thanks for clarification. The wording is similar to twinned spell but not exact. So guess you sadly still can't do fireball still since that targets a point vs a creature.
reread the Echo Knights ability it’s triggers an Opportunity attack so it ignores the rule about “when someone or something moves you without using your Movement, action, or Reaction” so you could trigger the Opportunity attack on your own turn, I was going to also say something about how war caster can only attack them but it dose work if you use all the blasts on them
@@cjslime8847 Hmm, it seems like the rules for opportunity attacks themselves might forbid this. It specifically calls out the Disengage action, but that's not the only way to avoid taking an opportunity attack. Forced movement is also called out as not provoking opportunity attacks. If forced movement works for echo OAs, then it would mean that the Disengage action wouldn't prevent an OA from the echo, either. Maybe.
@@Greywander87 yes I agree but it says what dose not activate an Opportunity attack, and yes the wording as if your in the echos space might be used to in enforce the rules but since you can more then 5 feet of reach the 5 feet rule really makes the echo strange
@@cjslime8847 No, it seems there's a discussion on this. Basically, every rule that interacts with opportunity attacks specifically only interacts with opportunity attacks that are "provoked". The echo ability is the only time an opportunity attack isn't "provoked". If "provoke" is an important keyword, then nothing that interacts with opportunity attacks interacts with the echo ability. Not Warcaster, not the Disengage action, and not the exception made for forced movement. If "provoke" _isn't_ an important keyword, then it essentially behaves as any other opportunity attack, which means forced movement doesn't work, but Warcaster does. TL;DR, we either get unavoidable opportunity attacks, or we get ghost lancing. Either way, the echo breaks OAs.
Shouldn’t catapult affect an Echo as well? It is an object that isn’t affected by gravity, which means it has no weight so it’s less than 5 pounds. Catapult will essentially be an instant off button for any echo as they only have 1 HP, little tip for any fellow DMs with an Echo Knight in the party
Those spells also have a range of "self (5 foot radius)" so they don't qualify for Distance metamagic. They also specify the attack is against a creature within 5 feet of you, you can't benefit from Reach improvements.
I feel like putting 2 levels into wizard for order of the scribes so not only does your echo trigger an opportunity spell but it came from the same place for better control
With the list of spells that target objects, both you and Tabletop Builds seem to have missed that Fireball also specified that it affects objects- though weirdly it just says that it “ignites” them, doesn’t specify how much damage
Tabletop builds did bug me about the list of spells but I lost the original file for that video so editing it was too hard to fix. It doesn't matter so much, Practical interp from the DM might be completely different anyways. What I listed is really a gist.
I can see an easy loophole for an unwilling DM. The third bullet point for manifest echo says you can make an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space, which suggests what is triggered is an opportunity attack for the echo, not an opportunity attack for you. For example, both you and the echo have enemies within 5 feet, if the enemy moves out of the range of the echo, you could not, then, make an opportunity attack against the enemy in your own range just because you have an opportunity attack action granted by your echo, the reaction would have to come from the echo against the enemy in their range that is creating the opportunity. And since echos can only take opportunity attacks, not cast spells, there's no way to cast a spell that originates from the echo's space, since war caster says you would be exchanging an opportunity attack action for a spell cast action. Now, thematically, the echo knight is described as warping around a battlefield to attack enemies from all sides, so there's an argument to be made that the way by which echos get this opportunity to attack is that the knight momentarily makes the echo's potentiality into reality by momentarily swapping places with the echo in order to make a physical attack from that space before swapping back. This would suggest that you could cast spells from an echo's location because it would be your reality occupying that space at that moment, not your potentiality, which means you get an opportunity attack action for yourself in that space, which you could then exchange for a spell cast action with war caster. However, this still undermines the build, as you would still have to cast the spell from the echo's space, not your own, which would generally knock enemies toward you rather than away from you. Alternatively, you could argue that the knight has expanded awareness of their echo's conditions, since their connection with dunamis grants them an awareness of other potentialities. The knight is aware of the echo's opportunities, even if they may or may not capitalize on them. In this way, the knight is directly aware of opportunity attack potentials for the echo and can have the opportunity to react personally to them, not just have the echo react. However, the DM could then argue that that level of awareness is something only granted by the echo avatar ability, which would require you to be blind and deaf. Anyway, I definitely think RAI is that opportunity attack for the echo must be executed by the echo, so even if you got away with the echo casting EB from its position, which isn't unprecedented since familiars can perform remote casting, it still greatly undermines the build from a reaction economy standpoint. Cool idea, though.
It doesn't say anywhere that echo's can't cast spells. In fact, echo's can't really do anything by themselves; they act as a portal through which the PC can attack/move. The echo doesn't attack, the PC does. The echo doesn't move, the PC moves it. Likewise the echo doesn't cast spells, the PC casts them from the echos' location.
@@reson8 Right, I covered that. The issue is that the PC needs to be casting spells from their own location to generally repel enemies away from themselves rather than toward themselves. If the enemy moved past the echo in the direction of the PC the enemy would be between the echo and the PC when the spell was cast, which would repel the enemy closer to the PC rather than further away.
@@QuesoCookies This is true, but in that scenario you wouldn't cast anything which would push the enemy closer to you (unless there was some fun stuff like a lava pit between you) you'd just do a normal attack of opportunity, a different spell, or maybe nothing at all.
Hey kobold, what do you think about a rogue/echo knight build? If rogues weren't slippery enough give them free teleports and you can always sneak attack on opportunity attacks so optimizing to get more seems pretty great. Also, depending on interpretation, if your character is hidden I think you could manifest echo and sneak attack on the same turn Rogue: I will pick the lock. Echo knight: don't bother. Echo goes through the door, blind swaps and opens the door.(obviously not always ideal and If the door is say padlocked on a brace bar you still have to pass a pick test But that situation is an I possible lock picking otherwise) .
This makes sense to me. At the very least, the Echo-Rogue has far fewer objections and questionable interpretations than the Echo-Warcaster build described in this video. The Echo-Rogue is using both a class feature and a subclass feature as intended, just at the same time. Even if a DM can object to the combo, he or she should not because it's clearly rules as intended. In contrast the Echo-Warcaster is nowhere close to rules and intended and stands on shaky ground if read as rules as written.
War caster states the opportunity attack must be “provoked” and “from you”. Technically the third bullet point from the echo’s options doesn’t “provoke”. If that wasn’t enough, you are not your echo, as you also stated; so, does this still work? RAW you couldn’t make EB with reaction warcaster OA
Manifest echo says opportunity attacks are triggered as if you were occupying the space, therefore the opportunity is provoked "from you." The reason the player can cast but the echo cannot is because the echo can only make opportunity attacks. As soon as the triggered reaction is converted from an opportunity attack to a spell cast with war caster, the echo can't take action because it can only perform opportunity attack actions, not spellcasting actions.
@@QuesoCookies that’s not what i asked. My question was, since Warcaster and the Echo Knight’s features have two different wordings, would this combo even work in the first place? If this works, does it mean that i can EB as a reaction when i EB as an action against a creature next to the echo, as the third bullet point of the echo’s features doesn’t specificy it has to voluntarily move?
@@tangerine3559 Opportunity attacks can only be triggered by the target that is creating the opportunity, unless an effect that moves a target explicitly says the movement it causes creates opportunities, which Replling Blast does not. That's just how opportunity attacks work, it doesn't have to do with any special conditions for the echo (even though it does state when a creature moves in that third point, not when a creature is moved). So no, you couldn't push an enemy out of your echo's range and then immediately push it further with a reaction, since it was your action that caused the target to go out of range, not the target's action.
@@tangerine3559 Sorry for the copy/pasta from a previous reply but i hope this helps. I used booming blade instead of eldritch blast but the principle is the same. From warcaster: When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature. From echo knight: When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space. Let's break it down. Seeing as you have one reaction per round, if you can make an opportunity attack you can use either feature. The echo knight feature specifically allows you to make attacks from the echos' space. For the opportunity attack to trigger, the creature must willingly move through or away from the area you can reach in melee; this includes the area around your echo. So if the creature moves away from your echo you can pull-off an opportunity attack as per the echo knight feature. The warcaster feat then allows you to convert that opportunity attack reaction to cast a spell at the creature instead. Finally, the echo knight feature allows you to cast that spell from the echos' position AS IF you were in the echo's space. This allows the use of booming blade (but not sneak attack, unless you just make a normal attack of opportunity) from either your space or the echos'. It might be helpful to consider the echo as a portal through which your character can attack; it is an object after all.
Something I notice is that this strategy only works against melee enemies. Enemy casters and archers should be perfectly happy to sit next to your echo and shoot at your party. With this in mind, it might be worth varying your tactics. Eldritch Spear and Spell Sniper pushes the range of your Eldritch Blast out to 600 feet, which should outrange most enemies. With Repelling Blast, you can just keep blasting them backwards in order to keep them from ever getting close enough to shoot anything your direction. Sadly, our echo can't exist that far out from us, but that doesn't mean we can't still make use of it. We still have a 30 to 60 foot teleport, which we can use to create even more distance, or to reposition ourselves, as needed. The other option is to still pick up Booming Blade, and then we can just teleport into melee with enemy casters/archers. I actually have an eldritch sniper build that is genielock 7 / dragon sorc 6, using Genie's Wrath to add fire or cold damage to EB, which in turn gets to add more damage from the dragon sorc's Elemental Affinity (essentially a flat +11 to DPR, since you will almost always hit with at least one beam). Also stacks Eldritch Spear, Spell Sniper, and Distant Spell to get those truly long range sniper shots. I could probably fit 3 levels of Echo Knight in there in order to make this tactic work when engaging over short distances.
Something occurs to me. When you use Warcaster to replace an OA, nothing actually forces you to cast the spell on the creature who provoked the OA. So you could park your echo next to a melee enemy who will definitely move to provoke an OA, but then blast a completely different enemy instead, such as a mage or archer who would be unlikely to move and provoke an OA. Edit: Nevermind, I'm dumb. It _does_ force you to target the triggering creature with the spell.
Could someone clarify why the self-flight interaction doesn't work? You spawn your echo next to you. You take the attack action and initiate a grapple through it targeting yourself. Because you are within reach of yourself and are not an object, the grapple condition does not end. Your echo moves freely, but at half speed. What doesn't work here? Is the echo incapable of imposing the grapple condition?
@@arcturuslight_ because of size requirements, no. However, sitting on the shoulders sounds feasible if your PC is strong enough to carry all his equipment + his own weight. I've been trying to find a reason why all of this can't work (aside from DM fiat) and I can't find anything.
@@thered1s276 Thas my bad, I had in mind a common term when saying mount, not the system term. Cant technically use the echo as mount since, again, object. At the same time, going from what I said in the first place, standing on it might be technically plausible, while moving yourself probably not. It doesn't specify any forced movement on its own, and has literally no stats beside AC and a hitpoint. It has no strength (doesnt use your or any skills) not even its own movement speed, so it would be impossible to determine to what extent it can move something outside of using your Shove attack thru it or a similar effect.
Its quite a weird thoughts you are thinking. Echo itself cannot be grappling someone since, again, object. At the very least, I was thinking, it cant hold grapple, since the grappler has not to be incapacitated. The echo is not conscious, cant use actions, but at the same time it is technically immune to incapacitated? Are objects capable? On the other hand, you have not to worry about it since you are the one doing the attack in the first place, so you... grapple yourself? There are two possibilities I see from there: Either it works just the same as grappling yourself normally, so you cant fly yourself up unless you are Munchausen or something (in fact your speed is 0 anyway from that). Or it means you are grappling yourself, but from the space adjacent to you, and idk what will happen if you then move the echo. This will not lift you tho, since the only way to move someone by grapple is by using your own movement (read Moving a Grappled Creature). Atleast that's what Ive been able to come up with. Let's maybe just say it can't grapple.
doing this with dao genie warlock + the feats crusher, the spell spike growth and enough sorc levels instead of fighter level for quicken is fun. quicken spike growth, push them 20ft then pull them 10ft then crusher then 5ft. If they walk up, do it again! that's 35ft moved, more at higher levels, and if you double it to 70ft with your reaction, it's what, 4d10+16+28d4+10 or so, depends on your level. Pretty fun, considering you don't even use outside help yet
Brilliant build! However, I'm not sure if Sentinel would work with War Caster like you described. War Caster means you cast a spell with your reaction RATHER than making an opportunity attack so I don't think it would trigger Sentinel.
I would have picked Bane, a level one spell available to Undead Locks with the expanded spell list availability, or use Entangle if Strixhaven Backgrounds are permitted by the DM, having the Quandrix Student Initiate Feat being able to pick up Entangle as a first level spell or sleep if Entangle is the AoE CC you wanted to pick up with the first level wizard spell to get (Although many would like to have taken FF spell to gain an owl familiar to gain advantage over, or pick a hawk to be able to use Dragon's Breath with a 15 feet cone in an air attack)
Here is something (if it’s wrong let me know) you have a bugbear fighter the spear with the feet with that one feet that when u hit them they can’t move with reation and a open hand monk so they get attacked like four times on the monk turn
what about hexblade/echo knight? so u can focus harder on charisma when related to damage etc... and progress in any of those 2 clases look cool to me, ill try to figure out a build like that.
Tips for DMs struggling to challenge an Echo Knight > Have one enemy archer hold their attack for when the Echo appears > Destroy Echo immediately > Profit
Tips for Echo Knights struggling to keep their echo alive > Summon your echo as a bonus action > Have it eat an attack instead of one of your party members > Tanking
@@Dinictus I don't remember exactly what I was implying when I made the comment, but I think that may have been my point. The echo is free to resummon, so you're basically spending a BA to negate one attack, maybe more if the enemy misses the echo. It's not a terrible trade, honestly, though it kind of depends what you're fighting. TBH, if the enemy isn't trying to kill your echo, then you're not making your echo dangerous enough. It's kind of similar to how I feel about Booming Blade; the point is not to get extra damage when the enemy moves, but to put them in a situation where not moving is worse than taking the extra damage. These kinds of tactics are all about stabbing the enemy with Morton's Fork, i.e. giving them nothing but bad options to choose from. No matter what they do, you win.
Thanks for the video! But... Isn't there a better option for our warlock subclass? See i was thinking what if taking the genie pick? That way if we keep picking warlock level, we end up with Limited wish which is quite powerfull
I don't know if my DM would allow that warcaster to come from your body's position. Besides I've already got a stable of builds waiting in the wings anyways. It does remind me of my burrow through dungeons build(mobile+spirit projection+dimension door), the aim-assisted A-10(based on min/max's clocklock build), and The Charon of words build(a horrible lessons in why you need to see how the build works before you get married to the idea of the character. Warforged+ancestral guardian 10, college of swords 5, hexblade 5)
@@agilemind6241 I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding War Caster. Remember that the last bullet point states "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." So while the conditional is provoking an opportunity attack, you're essentially NOT taking that AoO to instead spend your reaction to cast a spell. And RAW you can't cast spells through the echo's space. I think treating War Caster's reaction as an AoO is incorrect according to RAW.
War Caster is simply letting you cast a spell with your reaction, and nowhere in the echo text does it state that you have any capabilities of casting spells through the echo's space. If you want to use shit builds from min/max that's your choice lol, but I've played this build before and it works really, really well. It's incredibly refreshing too, as it feels like an entirely new class instead of a usual multiclass.
@@jonathanshi9367 yeah I think you’re missing the point of a lot of people’s comments… they are saying their DM wouldn’t let them because it doesn’t make intuitive sense to them and therefore their DM would instead rule differently. It’s not whether or not you actually think their DM is correct that matters. This build already uses RAI to make several assumptions for this build. RAI the attack of opportunity if you used a weapon would essentially come from the space of the echo. You aren’t using your sword from your space to hit it. So to some people, War Caster and the echo AS INTENDED could very well mean that it should originate from the space of the echo regardless of RAW. You can’t cherry pick one vs the other and get mad when some people pick what they think the intention is in one place vs another just because it’s different from yours. It certainly seems like the INTENTION would be that the reactions are originating from the Echo’s square. Obviously the whole reason this is even here is that Warcaster was probably not even considered when the class was designed (by someone not even on the WotC team) and as such the intention of the interaction between the echo and warcaster is ambiguous at best.
@@jonathanshi9367 the echo attack of opportunity counting as provoking an attack of opportunity from you is very gray area and the rules lawyering is for pretty nonsensical reasoning. Then you are going and asking for more rules leniency on echo durability. This probably won’t fly at many tables. Seems cool though.
I haven't got that far in the video yet and I haven't checked to see if this will actually work, but warcaster could allow a player to use their reaction to cast hold person on an enemy trying to escape and thus cancel out the rest of their turn
By strictest interpretation, no... An echo is not a character with the feat. Even Matt Mercer (when asked on Twitter about whether echoes triggered advantage through flanking) ruled that echoes are effects, not characters. Personally, I would allow it. You are using two features as intended, just at the same time. It has none of this shaky ground business like changing the action economy in the subject of this video. You're on solid ground as Rules as Intended and iffy ground as Rules as Written.
what do you do if the ennemy *does* destroy the echo, or is immune to the frightened condition ? How do you prepare against this ? Undead are common and immune to being frightened.
The frightened conditions is cool but isn't the best features in this builds it's the possibility to cast Repelling Blast as a reaction from by triggering an AoO from the Echo Space.
I feel like reaction Eldritch Blast should be a Warlock Subclass option already, maybe allowing you to use your bonus action to ready an Eldritch Blast or sth. like that
Im trying to figure out a way to get 6 levels of Bladesinger to work with this so you could EB, attack with a bow, and then use your echo to attack with a bow again but the ASI is not working out tbh.
If you really want Warcaster as well as starting with a CON save you could always do level 1 in Sorcerer for CON/INT saves. Especially if you are going to end up going sorcerer later has Pack Tactics states "is the most optimized and what Ronin would do." WWRD?
Slight mistake, If you pick up warcaster at level 1 then you can't go fighter at all because you dont meet the prerequisite. Also for those who keep bugging me about EB, yes I can do this. mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/908469121502736384
Eh, who actually uses prerequisites?
Fighter should still be picked first just to unlock heavy armor & shield proficiencies, though. Wisdom saving throw proficiency is good, but it can be taken as a feat later, and you'll still have the Con saving throw.
@@MyLittlePonyTheater You dont need heavy armor for this build and you get shield proficiency anyways.
You made another mistake I think. Shatter can kill the echo too
@@Spiceodog I do think the echo is magical in nature so it doesn't take damage.
"A nonmagical object that isn't being worn or carried also takes the damage if it's in the spell's area."
Someone: *thinks polearm master for reaction attacks*
Kobold: "and I took that personally"
If you take both you can repel them as soon as they reach the echo. Now you don't have to worry about melees at all instead of after they walk away. That leaves it open to attacks. Read them both it works. After all why would they avoid it if they can kill it.
I love the shenanigans this build enables. It’s not often you see a dedicated caster take a full 3 levels in Fighter.
3 LVL in fighters is always good just for Action surge and some cleric with some class like the Cavaliers for the taunt is really good.
@@Sir-Pleiades
I prefer 2 levels in Fighter just for the Action Surge, that way my Wizard can eventually still get Spell Mastery and cast infinite Misty Steps and Feather Falls.
@@theuncalledfor fighter dip for action surge only gets better due to the way action surge is worded. Because you get 2 action surges at character level 17
@@donovangunther4538
Action Surge lets you cast two full spells, not just cantrips, leveled spells, in a single turn. And it recharges on a short rest.
I don't care if my wizard never gets two Action Surges, he can cast a ninth level spell and an eighth level spell on the same turn, RAW!
@@donovangunther4538 Not really, because Action Surge in the Fighter table explicitly says when you get those extra uses.
Excellent build and video! The use of the war caster + echo knight is novel!
But you have to remember that a lot of rulling for it is... not clear. Tabletop advise that you first talk with your DM if the stuff works like that becasue it's Mat Mercer class and guy is great DM but he makes dog shit mechanical stuff.
I made a shadar kai shadow sorcerer echo knight with platemail and a pike...
With all the specific feats, racial and class features, choice of spells and choice of meta magic I have at my disposal I'm so freaking optimized my enemies want to 🤮
😅😂🤣
This feels like a prestige class. I wonder if there’s non optimized but perfectly balanced and capable that also feel completely unique
PAM and Crusher with a Quarterstaff can do one 5ft push per turn. Like Sneak Attack, you get to use the Crusher push again on an opponent’s turn, so it’ll combo well with PAM opportunity attacks. It’s a less extreme version of something similar to this. More like the old Forcelance than the new Echo Knight version, but still pretty cool. Almost like thick Boba Fett swinging his gaffi stick.
The combo doesn’t need to invest heavily into spell casting to function at a basic level. Just two feats, so it’ll work as early as level 4 if you start with a feat. Something probably worth getting is Dueling fighting style for some solid damage on your own turn with the PAM bonus attack. Battlemaster might be an option for some OK burst damage and then just holding the line. Maybe go Paladin for Improved Divine Smite at higher levels-you could go straight class Pally and non-optimize, but still have a lot of fun with reactions and pushing. Sentinel feat also adds in well, since 0 speed on an enemy after a 5ft push might be enough.
Or go Eldritch Knight for Warcaster Booming Blade reactions. BB with the staff is closer to RAI for polearm attacks even if Eldritch Blast is ok RAW. Variant Human or Custom Lineage and 6 levels in Fighter gets you all 3 feats. Pushing someone away and maybe they have to trigger the BB secondary damage to get into melee isn’t too shabby, but it gives the DM more choices and a much smaller distance to cover than two 10ft pushes.
I loved listening to how genuinely excited you are about this. Really fun builds and great vid as always.
I'd love to see a deeper dive on War Caster and how to get max use out of that, perhaps that is something I can dig into myself.
You can do aaaaaloooot, its an untouched topic really.
I would really love for more set ups for it. Even if it fails, there's one thing (out of the many I want to do) that really could end enemies with proper teamwork.
And that's Hold Person and Hold Monster, being able to use those as a reaction is something I've wanted to do, but that I haven't done yet.
It might not be the best strategy, but hey, getting possibly more milage of the paralyzed before the enemies turn (I assume they succeed the save, my luck is horrible) sounds tempting to really ruin day of whatever you are fighting.
And yes crits are only for people within 5 feet, but hey, I play mostly gishes so...
I prefer saving my reactions for absorb elements/shield/counter spell/held spells/ silvery barbs when not banned.
This sounds like an amazing build. I'll certainly have to look into it when I get around to starting this in another campaign. Right now, though, I'm getting back into the DM chair with my Tuesday group, so it's time to nearly TKP my players each game, just to keep things interesting. 😈
Oh I was hoping there'd be a "But Kobold" shirt. I'll be getting that one!
To me thats the coolest thing for sale lol
@@PackTactics It's been ordered. Looking forward to getting it in a few weeks.
I’ve been waiting on this video ever since he teased it last month. So glad it’s finally finished and even better than I thought. Well done, as always Kobold you are very quickly becoming one of my favorite D&D optimization build channels. Keep up the good work.
I've only gotten to use it a few times, but its pretty funny using warcaster to drop bestow curse on somebody.
My favorite use is Command, because the Grovel command makes them fall prone and end their turn. And since it's an opportunity attack, they're doing this right in front of you.
One of my favorite moments in game was when my friend who was playing a Warlock used his warcaster reaction to mental prison a really big enemy who was trying to flee. It was fucking awesome. 👌
This is a great build and I'm hyped to try it out one day. Great video Pack Tactics : )
See this kind of thing is why I love optimizing. Taking a feature you’d think of as minor or just a bonus, and making the build around it. It becomes something unique to your character while still being effective.
Sincerely,
-A guy who plays a suturefly companion beastmaster ranger
There is an interesting later build option you could take revolving around the additional warlock invocations of grasp of hadar and lance of lethargy, at higher levels with additional eldritch blasts you get HUGE control of wherever your enemy is at all times, being able to move it both away and towards you, you get a lot of crowd control and synergy with any other casters and environmental hazards in combat with the added benefit of reducing your targets speed until the end of your next turn, essentially forcing them out of combat for the entire combat
I love the distinction between creature and object with the echo knight. Taking Devils Sight as an invocation and casting Hunger of Hadar would allow you to push a creature into the circle, put your echo knight inside where it suffers no effects and can use your reaction at advantage to keep enemies inside taking cold and acid damage while they have disadvantage on all attack rolls and can’t cast many spells.
Devil’s sight can’t penetrate Hunger of Hadar.
@@brannenpfister2579it’s magical darkness, so yes it can
@@ShakeTonMilshake Hunger of Hadar doesn’t produce magical darkness. It’s an inky void. Not even truesight can see through it. Only tremorsense and blindsight. Many many people get this wrong.
I love this. I have been eyeing the echo knight to play. I might just build one with a 2 level dip in warlock for all shenanigans this offers. You sir are a scaly treasure.
I waited for this, I love your style of videos
Quick note: you can't frighten enemies via your form of dread on an opportunity attack, as the feature says that you can do it "Once on each of *your* turns".
right!? first thing i thought of too. i've ran a couple undead warlocks (one melee multiclass, one straight class). Took war caster on both. Our table (including me) read that feature as a once per (your) turn effect. not as part of your reaction. To compare, sneak attack says, "...once A turn" allowing you to trigger it on opportunity attacks. Love it when "super optimized" builds use a busted 3rd party subclass and then just completely overlook RAW
@@theangler1922 ill admit i hardly watched it. i built this same guy right after undead warlock came out. (slight differences of course as i didnt know about the "famous ghostlance") but then i kept reading about this build and decided to check it out only to find its something ive done before. Its fairly good, but i have no idea whats so special about it and i played it in a 9 month long campaign. sure it offers decent control, but most of the control comes from just the base warlock. with this build, you have a middling DC at best. many enemies of decent strength are immune to fear or have resistances. so you have MAYBE a 50% chance to cause fear on a single grunt per turn, big deal. Im not trying to belittle anyone, but for all the hype around this build, i dont get it, its a meh build at best
@@theangler1922 I undertand all of that, as ive played it before lol. I was responding to the guy above me who i had incorrectly assumed had watched and understood the video himself. But i came here after reading dozens of people talking about how amazing it is on forums. And the fact treantmonk and pack tactics made a video on it, i had my hopes up. Its just a repelling blast warlock thats a fraction better than baseline and needing a busted 3rd party subclass to do it. And i hardly ever build a warlock without repelling blast as i love it. Im not trying to be an a$$, i just read SOOO much hype and from personal experience, its meh. Now for flavor, go for it. I usually choose flavor over optimized anyway.
I did a straight Fathomless with Lance of Leth, repelling blast, and agonizing blast. Feels like it fits a very similar profile but doesnt require any saving throws and hits more reliably. and since straight class, get ASI and invocations much faster. It pretty much guarantees locking down any melee enemy of your choice, Even a Terrasque. worst case, a dip into a cleric or fighter gets you your armor if really needed. overall a stronger build IMO.
@@theangler1922 1 level dip vs 3 levels, huge difference and if you cant understand that i cant help you. and while the echo does have utility but nothing that other effects or spells cant do. Plus, fathomless has utility too, just different. I know cuz ive played 40-50 hours with the echo knight subclass. get pact of the chain and you just covered about every "utility" thing the echo can do. The echo dies constantly too to any attack which sure is fine, or AoE. and yes there is the whole "since it is an object it doesnt get effected by AoE" but if you rule that essentially nothing effects echo knights except for direct martial attacks, its completely broken. And that isn't a good build. Gives a couple extra attacks and can occupy space but cant be effected by a fireball? Im genuinely happy my DM didnt rule it that ay as its frankly idiotic if you have an IQ above 60. it's a busted subclass from a 3rd party publisher. If you rolled echo knight into "official" subclases, i dont think there is much doubt its arguably the most busted subclass there is (not best class, just subclass) There are dozens of broken 3rd party classes that blow this away. And your defense is all the stuff the echo can do is what makes this build work. I mean the subclass was built purely for NPCs in Mercer's setting and we act like it's a comparable build option 🤪 . I mean if your table just lets players pull busted subclasses in with zero common sense, then good for you little buddy, but im glad im not at that table. BYE!
@@theangler1922 oh come on little buddy, i was having fun getting paid reading your funny rants 😁
I feel like this manifest echo combo works really well with the earth genie warlock which gets spike growth and deals a little bit of extra damage which is bludgeoning so if you wanted you could take crusher for more pushing.
Would love to see a follow-up video to this. Most fun I've had playing DND was this build.
I love this idea and the mechanics behind it! This video is already a couple of years old so you didn't have access to some of this but here is one of my takes on a more modern variant:
Take the Polearm Master feat and use a halberd so that your reach is now 10 feet, and take the new Path of the Giant subclass for Barbarians so that your reach increases by 5 feet. This means your total reach is now 15 feet. You also become Large if you are medium or smaller. This actually matters as 15 feet reach on a medium creature covers 48 squares around you on a grid, and 15 feet reach on a large creature covers 60 squares around you on a grid. You reach remains the same, 15 feet, but because a large creature takes up a 4x4 area on a grid it allows you to cover/reach more squares... where even more enemies could have a chance to enter your reach and trigger an AoO.
You're also gonna need to be able to cast Eldritch Blast with the invocation Repelling Blast at the very least (you're probably gonna also want Agonizing Blast). When an enemy breaches your 15 foot bubble of reach you get an AoO.
Now I should mention here that you would also need Warcaster to switch from using an AoO to casting a spell with our reaction. Cast Eldritch Blast and push the enemy back 10 feet so they are now 25 feet away. Since you need at least 3 levels in Barbarian and a way to cast Eldritch Blast with the Repelling Blast invocation you are probably gonna need 2 levels in Warlock also.
Overall this will mean you are a minimum of a 5th level multiclass (Barb 3/Warlock2) and your Eldritch Blast will have two beams which means you could leave your enemy standing 35 feet away... on their turn... as a reaction. How much of their movement did they use to get to within 15 feet of you before you 'blasted them away' and how much do they have left after finding themselves 35 feet distance from you?
Great idea. Undead fits the ghostlyness of the echo as well!
cool build and i LOVE that you clearly say "intents and purposes" lol
Oooh, I've been waiting for this since it was teased.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOO SO HYPED, I LOVE THIS BUILD!
I can definitely see DM's ruling that the attack has to originate from the echo, since the only reason you get opportunity attacks is because they're turning their back and running away from you; "you" being the echo. I read this as you attacking from the echo's space. Even if that was the ruling, Sentinel would still work, and so would Booming Blade! The Echo Knight alone is crazy good!
Can't wait to try some variation of this build, I love the roleplay opportunities! You are a living nightmare, conjuring shadows and blasting people. 😄
Actually sentinel only works if you also have to cast from the echo's space, since otherwise you have to make an arbitrary distinction between if your feats are only applied to you, your echo or if there is a specific list for each... Which is not how the manifest echo feature is written.
im confused why are the comments slap full of people talkinjg about the echo knight on a rougue build?
If I set the speed to 1.5 it goes at a reasonable pace. I was having Michael Lehrer flashbacks at first. Love the videos now.
I'm always surprised by how many players don't take repelling blast. Especially after they e seen how effectively I've used it for battlefield control
100% agree. Very underrated invocation.
In general just repelling blast enemies into Hunger of Hadar is so much fun
Usually I see it recommended as the second invocation to take after Agonizing Blast. It's true that some players stop after Agonizing Blast, but if you invest into EB beyond that, then Repelling Blast is typically the next one you'll get, and often the _only_ other EB invocation you'll get. It's unfortunate that Grasp of Hadar and Lance of Lethargy can't be stacked with multiple beams like Repelling Blast can, but TBH it would probably be overkill if you could stack them all together.
This is such an excellent build. I am looking forward to playing thus
Since the echo knight is an object, you can interact with it as an object, including grabbing it and using it as an improvised weapon (a club or a boulder, depending on size) and using it to beat the caster for a minimum of 1d4+str bonus, problably more, depending on how close your echo resembles a weapon your enemy has proficiency with.
this is what i would of been doing if a player tried to use this build on me. "ok so the enemy Barb picks up your echo and bashing you with your own echo" prevents triggering the entire build.
IT'S HERE!!!!
I love the echo knight and wanted to use it somehow. This is hilariously interesting, but it seems you need a dm that is willing to get nitty gritty with all the nuances
I hope “except gnomes” becomes a reoccurring theme.
I think getting warlock 5th level is definitely something to consider even if you continue to go for sorcerer simply to get agonising blast simply due to how often you will be using eldritch both as actions and reactions
Amazing video as always Kolbold. Question though: what's your opinion on Genie Pact warlock for this build instead of undead. I building this right now actually and was looking at warlock 3 fighter 3 then sorcerer to get spike growth and possibly crusher feat for more movement eventually. Do you think this has merit over undead?
Genie lance works too. Its a better straight warlock build. Like its up to you at the end of they day! Whats brilliant about this is it works with a lot of things and Im glad you noticed the genie way because I remember many months ago we talked about it.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I have been told before that if you’re holding a whip and have war caster you can cast a spell at someone who leaves your 10 foot whip range or your 5 foot fist range because op attacks triggers for leaving the weapons range, and not for leaving 5 foot range. So holding a whip means you threaten a wider variety of movement around you in a larger area.
But reading echo knight this doesn’t work on your echo because manifest echo does specify that the op attack triggers for leaving 5 feet of the echo, even though the echo would be able to make that attack with a weapon with reach, the reach doesn’t extend the range of the echo’s op attack. But if you have war caster you might as well hold a whip yourself. Even if you lack proficiency, it is a tool to make the threat of your op attacks cover a larger area. My clerics use it, so that they can walk up to someone with a 5 foot reach and command, if the command works they stay still and get an op attack, and if it fails they walk away and take no op attack. Having proficiency in the whip is redundant. It’s just there so I can chain commands
On dnd beyond I believe all cantrips increase in power in regards to your player level, not the class level.
The echo could reasonably be dealt with by catapult, but it depends how the dm rules it's weight. It is solid in that it can attack and fill a space, but it is a translucent grey image so it can't weight that much.
If it is ruled to weigh between 1 and 5 pounds it could be catapulted by an enemy wizard to either attack your party or simply fling it 90 feet away, destroying it without a save.
Unless echoes are a common quantity in the game world, most monsters I would take it would be unfamiliar with just what the echo is, be it another creature or an illusion or something else. But provided they know it's an object either during the fight itself or because they were aware of its capabilities before hand, a melee monster could just use an item interaction to pick up the echo and walk towards the party without provoking opportunity attacks and overall not sacrificing action economy. Alternativey, they could throw it away, which would either be part of their item interaction or might require an attack as determined by the DM.
Man I had this build in my head for a while it’s so cool
I’m playing a ghostlance next weekend. Seems like a really awesome build!
How did you flavored it?
Can't wait to try this out someday, love the vid!
“This build doesn’t work with gnomes!”
Hah, Pack Tactics is getting into character!
Jokes aside, this build seems like fun. Might go the route of Fighter 3/Warlock X someday.
Cool...my like on the video was number 1,000!! Yay! Oh, and VERY fun video, by the way. Planning on using this build next game.
This is my current build and it's so cool. Although I went Dragonborn for my race and started as a fighter for backstory purposes, I'm currently at level 6 and am fully online sans sorcerer levels. I'm going to be going all in on DSS for the. Unfortunate I won't be level 9 until I finally get web, but the synergy here is just too absurd.
I have no problem letting the other PCs in my party get access to absurd spells and damage, if it means I get to completely and utterly control the battlefield.
Love echo Knight (but that creature/object nonsense is hanky). In our games we changed up the echo to match the pet classes like Drake warden and beast master. Having a moderately bulky echo makes for a much more enjoyable gameplay experience (for both player and DM). Even added that every second attack gains advantage if striking the same enemy between yourself and the echo on top of the level 7 echo avatar feature.
If it eats an enemy's attack, that's still an attack that you or one of your party members didn't take. You can resummon it as a bonus action at no cost, so this is actually a decent tanking ability. If enemies always try to kill your echo, then while you might not get to use it as much, it's actually probably being more useful by mitigating attacks.
wow what a cool build. I'll have to try it if I get the chance.
Wanted to comment here to endorse the build as I got to use it in a one-shot, it's really great! Personally I really like taking warlock 3 for the imp familiar then going rest sorcerer.
Divine is great for the cleric list, clockwork is great too for the flexibility but personally I would choose lunar subclass. The spells aren't all that great but 6th level lunar boons feature helps stretch out those sorcery points for when you wanna quicken an eldritch blast or subtle a big spell you can't afford to be counterspelled.
*or you could beg your DM for a bloodwell vial, that could be called minmaxing
Im happy you had fun! Theres many build opportunities in this single build so theres a lot of replay value. I still haven't found a build thats as unique as this.
Actually the target doesn't lose the grappled feature. If you have a method at range to grapple they remain so. There is literally a tattoo to do that 15 feet away.
Small comment: Fireball/firestorm also affects the echo, as it sets all objects on fire that aren't worn or carried. As being on fire should deal some damage to the object and the echo only has 1 HP it destroys the echo
Sorry but that is incorrect. Fireball states "It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried." Nowhere does it state that an echo is flammable, so it would not be destroyed. Plus, there's no solidified rules on the damage being set on fire does.
"It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried." This is more up to the DM if a translucent, gray image is flammable but in my book no.
It's immune to all conditions. Being on fire is a condition last I checked.
Im not sure if things like desintigrate or shatter would affect the echo, they specify "Non-magical objects" I'm guessing the echo is magical btu the DM might rule otherwise.
I do not see "being on fire" or "burning" as a condition in my books, do you have a reference on what page it is defined? In case this condition exists I'd agree that the echo would be immune. I'd also agree that it is DM decision (as many things in 5E) whether or not the image is flammable, it might rely on how the image is flavored. However I do think there is a reasonable rules arguement that it should be flammable.
Items in general do not specify whether they are flammable, so one might argue that objects are flammable unless they have immunity to fire damage.
Quoting from the rulestext for object stats: "When time is a factor, you can assign an Armor Class and Hit Points to a destructible object. You can also give it immunities, resistances, and vulnerabilities to specific types of damage. "
Thus, when an objects defenses become relevant for combat (e.g. because it gets fireballed and its continued existance is important to the adventure) the DM decides what hitpoints the item (e.g. grappling hook) has, how much AC and which immunities (e.g. fire, thus making it not flammable, or nonmagical slashing because a sword won't cut through solid metal). However, the rules for the object "echo" regarding combat are already defined in the feature as its combat relevance is expected. While AC and HP and (condition) immunities are defined, no additional immunities like fire immunity (making it not flammable) are specified. I thus conclude that it can take damage from fire, making it flammable. Otherwise one could argue that it also is immune to (nonmagical) bludgeon/piercing/slashing damage, as a hologram style echo from the past cannot be affected by mundane weapons.
It is also true that there are no rules for items being on fire, however I'd say that at least 1damage/round (enough to kill the echo) would be around the minimum if considering rules where burning IS defined (e.g. fire elemental 1d10, oil 5 flat, web 2d4), who all deal considerable damage per round.
also coffeelocking, or just tealocking, is a cool addition to this
I read the title and was honestly expecting something with the ability to summon a mount with a lance like medieval ghost rider.
I actually took a bit of inspiration from this and went 17 levels Arcane Trickster Rogue and 3 level Echo Knight Fighter. This character was probably the slipperiest I've ever used.
Because of the Steady Aim Feature from Tasha's together with the ability to cast Invisibility, Minor Illusion and Mage Hand Ledger Domain, I can pretty much use the Echo as a stand in for my character in fights while they hide in plain sight, cast spells to mess with the enemy and let my Echo pretty much constantly slam enemies with Ranged Sneak Attacks.
If you're wondering where Minor Illusion comes in, I usually use it as a sort of camouflage to blend into the background once I'm out of line of sight and then use the hide action while remotely attacking with my Echo over and over again lol
I accidentally made a character like this after seeing your echo knight video, except I went aberrant mind sorcerer level 5 after getting war caster and echo knight from fighter. Dissonant Whispers is fun.
I’m building something similarish for my next campaign 6 Echo Knight, 14 first vampire warlock (Grim Hollow)
It’s for a darker campaign and I’m very excited to play it.
At 11:02 you say that the condition of grappled ends immediately, but you are not under the grapple condition when you grapple someone else, *they* are. I repeat, the grappled condition only applies to the person being grappled, not the grappler. If that was the case then you wouldn't be able to move when you grapple someone as your speed would be 0, which is of course not true as we know that you can move while grappling someone, assuming they don't grapple you back of course. All this means is that they cannot grapple it back as it is immune to being grappled, but it can maintain the grapple just fine. It is also immune to being incapacitated as it is immune to conditions, so that won't end the grapple.
So is it because of the 3rd clause for grappling where "the creature is no longer in reach of the grappler(you)" and so the grapple ends? That could be the answer, though the fact that it was not "removed" as you were never there is weird, and it just feels unclear on which reason you are saying that the grapple immediately ends.
Again, per RAW, you are *NOT* under the grappled condition when you grapple someone else. They are the only ones subjected to the grappled condition unless they grapple you back, which again the echo is immune to all conditions *and* an object so it cannot be grappled per RAW
Not sure about the grapple part. You reduce the enemy movement to zero. As soon as the grapple breaks it's movement is no longer zero. At no point does it state it's zero for the rest of the turn. The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
Damn, I love contemplating fantasy physics.
This is assuming enemies don't simply pick up the echo as part of their turn and move it with them, preventing an attack of opportunity.
As you mentioned, the echo is an object, so phb 190:
"You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to attack."
Admittedly, I would reserve this counter for intelligent enemies, but it's worth mentioning.
Then you get another case where you yourself can just pick up the echo with object interaction and fly off.
@@PackTactics lol, that's very true! But it's not a grapple and it seems to follow RAW.
You can even go a step further: have your PC stand on the echo. No grappling or object interaction required and infinite flight.
Hmmm, am I missing something, or did we discover a new broken strategy?
Just did some more digging. Apparently, any object or magical force must have a carrying capacity specified (mage hand, bigby's hand, etc) or it defaults to not being able to carry anything.
Since the echo has no such description, it can't carry anything, hence my original point of it being movable as an object interaction is still valid.
Now I want to see an EK Moon Druid. Phantom, teleporting bears and elementals!!
This video is still super helpful! I was trying to see would work.
I Just realized things I can do with jumping while grappling creatures and dropping them to the ground, then falling on them. At least 3 lvls of echo knight are going it o that build. hahahaha!
So, with the third bullet point of war caster it seems to imply that the spell has to only be able to target one creature and eldritch blast has multiple targets
The feat says that the spell must only target that one creature.
Aiming all blasts at that creature fullfills that requirement
Papi chulo pack tactics
The only thing is, that you can't use eldritch blast with war caster once you get multiple beams. It isn't just that you can only target that one creature, the spell itself has to only have the ability to target a single creature. Since you can technically target a different creature with each beam then you can't use EB with war caster.
It still works, you can use EB warcaster so long as the beams all target the one creature.
@@cusillo6976 oh, huh, I just found a sage advice that says they can, though I could have sworn I read a different SA/actual in book text that specifically mentioned Eldritch Blast past level 5 is not viable for war caster. I stand corrected lol.
Isn't there a flaw in this build that is big? Wouldn't getting multiple beams that can target multiple people then invalidate Eldritch Blast for War caster? I guess that bullet point can be interpreted as you only going all in on that creature but you can't war caster Fireball even if it would only get that one creature so guess up to your DM in the end. But by RAW don't think this works.
You're confusing it with Twinned Spell, which says that in order to be eligible for it, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level. Warcaster only states that it must only target the creature that provoked the OA, without ever restricting what the spell used would normally be able to target.
mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/908469121502736384
Thanks for clarification. The wording is similar to twinned spell but not exact. So guess you sadly still can't do fireball still since that targets a point vs a creature.
@@jsolen522 fireball also doesn’t only hit the moving target ofc.
I'd love another video applying this concept to Trickery Domain Clerics. 👍
reread the Echo Knights ability it’s triggers an Opportunity attack so it ignores the rule about “when someone or something moves you without using your Movement, action, or Reaction” so you could trigger the Opportunity attack on your own turn,
I was going to also say something about how war caster can only attack them but it dose work if you use all the blasts on them
Oh dang. I'm sure that isn't intended, but...
@@Greywander87 rules as written
@@cjslime8847 Hmm, it seems like the rules for opportunity attacks themselves might forbid this. It specifically calls out the Disengage action, but that's not the only way to avoid taking an opportunity attack. Forced movement is also called out as not provoking opportunity attacks. If forced movement works for echo OAs, then it would mean that the Disengage action wouldn't prevent an OA from the echo, either. Maybe.
@@Greywander87 yes I agree but it says what dose not activate an Opportunity attack, and yes the wording as if your in the echos space might be used to in enforce the rules but since you can more then 5 feet of reach the 5 feet rule really makes the echo strange
@@cjslime8847 No, it seems there's a discussion on this. Basically, every rule that interacts with opportunity attacks specifically only interacts with opportunity attacks that are "provoked". The echo ability is the only time an opportunity attack isn't "provoked". If "provoke" is an important keyword, then nothing that interacts with opportunity attacks interacts with the echo ability. Not Warcaster, not the Disengage action, and not the exception made for forced movement. If "provoke" _isn't_ an important keyword, then it essentially behaves as any other opportunity attack, which means forced movement doesn't work, but Warcaster does.
TL;DR, we either get unavoidable opportunity attacks, or we get ghost lancing. Either way, the echo breaks OAs.
Definitely a contender for my next character for a campaign. It's already decided I'm playing a kobold, it's just what class/build I play with it.
Shouldn’t catapult affect an Echo as well?
It is an object that isn’t affected by gravity, which means it has no weight so it’s less than 5 pounds.
Catapult will essentially be an instant off button for any echo as they only have 1 HP, little tip for any fellow DMs with an Echo Knight in the party
13:00 casting booming blade from your echo space. Couldn't you use metamagic Distance spell for that?
Could be wrong. But it seems to fit.
You have to make a weapon attack with booming blade. So distance spell doesn't work.
@@btoneking ah ok. I assume the same with green flame blade as well.
Those spells also have a range of "self (5 foot radius)" so they don't qualify for Distance metamagic. They also specify the attack is against a creature within 5 feet of you, you can't benefit from Reach improvements.
Distance spell doesn't work but Spell Sniper does.
I feel like putting 2 levels into wizard for order of the scribes so not only does your echo trigger an opportunity spell but it came from the same place for better control
So this is Coffeelock + Echo Knight. Thats... strangely effective. Neat.
With the list of spells that target objects, both you and Tabletop Builds seem to have missed that Fireball also specified that it affects objects- though weirdly it just says that it “ignites” them, doesn’t specify how much damage
Only for flammable objects, so it's irrelevant for the echo since it's not flammable.
Tabletop builds did bug me about the list of spells but I lost the original file for that video so editing it was too hard to fix. It doesn't matter so much, Practical interp from the DM might be completely different anyways. What I listed is really a gist.
I can see an easy loophole for an unwilling DM. The third bullet point for manifest echo says you can make an opportunity attack as if you were in the echo's space, which suggests what is triggered is an opportunity attack for the echo, not an opportunity attack for you. For example, both you and the echo have enemies within 5 feet, if the enemy moves out of the range of the echo, you could not, then, make an opportunity attack against the enemy in your own range just because you have an opportunity attack action granted by your echo, the reaction would have to come from the echo against the enemy in their range that is creating the opportunity. And since echos can only take opportunity attacks, not cast spells, there's no way to cast a spell that originates from the echo's space, since war caster says you would be exchanging an opportunity attack action for a spell cast action.
Now, thematically, the echo knight is described as warping around a battlefield to attack enemies from all sides, so there's an argument to be made that the way by which echos get this opportunity to attack is that the knight momentarily makes the echo's potentiality into reality by momentarily swapping places with the echo in order to make a physical attack from that space before swapping back. This would suggest that you could cast spells from an echo's location because it would be your reality occupying that space at that moment, not your potentiality, which means you get an opportunity attack action for yourself in that space, which you could then exchange for a spell cast action with war caster. However, this still undermines the build, as you would still have to cast the spell from the echo's space, not your own, which would generally knock enemies toward you rather than away from you.
Alternatively, you could argue that the knight has expanded awareness of their echo's conditions, since their connection with dunamis grants them an awareness of other potentialities. The knight is aware of the echo's opportunities, even if they may or may not capitalize on them. In this way, the knight is directly aware of opportunity attack potentials for the echo and can have the opportunity to react personally to them, not just have the echo react. However, the DM could then argue that that level of awareness is something only granted by the echo avatar ability, which would require you to be blind and deaf.
Anyway, I definitely think RAI is that opportunity attack for the echo must be executed by the echo, so even if you got away with the echo casting EB from its position, which isn't unprecedented since familiars can perform remote casting, it still greatly undermines the build from a reaction economy standpoint. Cool idea, though.
It doesn't say anywhere that echo's can't cast spells. In fact, echo's can't really do anything by themselves; they act as a portal through which the PC can attack/move. The echo doesn't attack, the PC does. The echo doesn't move, the PC moves it. Likewise the echo doesn't cast spells, the PC casts them from the echos' location.
@@reson8 Right, I covered that. The issue is that the PC needs to be casting spells from their own location to generally repel enemies away from themselves rather than toward themselves. If the enemy moved past the echo in the direction of the PC the enemy would be between the echo and the PC when the spell was cast, which would repel the enemy closer to the PC rather than further away.
@@QuesoCookies This is true, but in that scenario you wouldn't cast anything which would push the enemy closer to you (unless there was some fun stuff like a lava pit between you) you'd just do a normal attack of opportunity, a different spell, or maybe nothing at all.
Hey kobold, what do you think about a rogue/echo knight build? If rogues weren't slippery enough give them free teleports and you can always sneak attack on opportunity attacks so optimizing to get more seems pretty great. Also, depending on interpretation, if your character is hidden I think you could manifest echo and sneak attack on the same turn
Rogue: I will pick the lock. Echo knight: don't bother. Echo goes through the door, blind swaps and opens the door.(obviously not always ideal and If the door is say padlocked on a brace bar you still have to pass a pick test But that situation is an I possible lock picking otherwise)
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This makes sense to me. At the very least, the Echo-Rogue has far fewer objections and questionable interpretations than the Echo-Warcaster build described in this video.
The Echo-Rogue is using both a class feature and a subclass feature as intended, just at the same time. Even if a DM can object to the combo, he or she should not because it's clearly rules as intended.
In contrast the Echo-Warcaster is nowhere close to rules and intended and stands on shaky ground if read as rules as written.
War caster states the opportunity attack must be “provoked” and “from you”. Technically the third bullet point from the echo’s options doesn’t “provoke”. If that wasn’t enough, you are not your echo, as you also stated; so, does this still work? RAW you couldn’t make EB with reaction warcaster OA
Manifest echo says opportunity attacks are triggered as if you were occupying the space, therefore the opportunity is provoked "from you." The reason the player can cast but the echo cannot is because the echo can only make opportunity attacks. As soon as the triggered reaction is converted from an opportunity attack to a spell cast with war caster, the echo can't take action because it can only perform opportunity attack actions, not spellcasting actions.
@@QuesoCookies that’s not what i asked. My question was, since Warcaster and the Echo Knight’s features have two different wordings, would this combo even work in the first place?
If this works, does it mean that i can EB as a reaction when i EB as an action against a creature next to the echo, as the third bullet point of the echo’s features doesn’t specificy it has to voluntarily move?
@@tangerine3559 Opportunity attacks can only be triggered by the target that is creating the opportunity, unless an effect that moves a target explicitly says the movement it causes creates opportunities, which Replling Blast does not. That's just how opportunity attacks work, it doesn't have to do with any special conditions for the echo (even though it does state when a creature moves in that third point, not when a creature is moved). So no, you couldn't push an enemy out of your echo's range and then immediately push it further with a reaction, since it was your action that caused the target to go out of range, not the target's action.
@@tangerine3559 Sorry for the copy/pasta from a previous reply but i hope this helps. I used booming blade instead of eldritch blast but the principle is the same.
From warcaster: When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.
From echo knight: When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
Let's break it down.
Seeing as you have one reaction per round, if you can make an opportunity attack you can use either feature.
The echo knight feature specifically allows you to make attacks from the echos' space.
For the opportunity attack to trigger, the creature must willingly move through or away from the area you can reach in melee; this includes the area around your echo. So if the creature moves away from your echo you can pull-off an opportunity attack as per the echo knight feature.
The warcaster feat then allows you to convert that opportunity attack reaction to cast a spell at the creature instead.
Finally, the echo knight feature allows you to cast that spell from the echos' position AS IF you were in the echo's space. This allows the use of booming blade (but not sneak attack, unless you just make a normal attack of opportunity) from either your space or the echos'.
It might be helpful to consider the echo as a portal through which your character can attack; it is an object after all.
Something I notice is that this strategy only works against melee enemies. Enemy casters and archers should be perfectly happy to sit next to your echo and shoot at your party. With this in mind, it might be worth varying your tactics. Eldritch Spear and Spell Sniper pushes the range of your Eldritch Blast out to 600 feet, which should outrange most enemies. With Repelling Blast, you can just keep blasting them backwards in order to keep them from ever getting close enough to shoot anything your direction. Sadly, our echo can't exist that far out from us, but that doesn't mean we can't still make use of it. We still have a 30 to 60 foot teleport, which we can use to create even more distance, or to reposition ourselves, as needed. The other option is to still pick up Booming Blade, and then we can just teleport into melee with enemy casters/archers.
I actually have an eldritch sniper build that is genielock 7 / dragon sorc 6, using Genie's Wrath to add fire or cold damage to EB, which in turn gets to add more damage from the dragon sorc's Elemental Affinity (essentially a flat +11 to DPR, since you will almost always hit with at least one beam). Also stacks Eldritch Spear, Spell Sniper, and Distant Spell to get those truly long range sniper shots. I could probably fit 3 levels of Echo Knight in there in order to make this tactic work when engaging over short distances.
Something occurs to me. When you use Warcaster to replace an OA, nothing actually forces you to cast the spell on the creature who provoked the OA. So you could park your echo next to a melee enemy who will definitely move to provoke an OA, but then blast a completely different enemy instead, such as a mage or archer who would be unlikely to move and provoke an OA.
Edit: Nevermind, I'm dumb. It _does_ force you to target the triggering creature with the spell.
Could someone clarify why the self-flight interaction doesn't work?
You spawn your echo next to you. You take the attack action and initiate a grapple through it targeting yourself. Because you are within reach of yourself and are not an object, the grapple condition does not end. Your echo moves freely, but at half speed.
What doesn't work here? Is the echo incapable of imposing the grapple condition?
If it occupies space and can block movement, does that mean you can... mount your echo? Use it as a hoverboard? How tangible is it?
@@arcturuslight_ you can't mount your Echo as he need to be one size larger than you so no.
@@arcturuslight_ because of size requirements, no. However, sitting on the shoulders sounds feasible if your PC is strong enough to carry all his equipment + his own weight.
I've been trying to find a reason why all of this can't work (aside from DM fiat) and I can't find anything.
@@thered1s276 Thas my bad, I had in mind a common term when saying mount, not the system term. Cant technically use the echo as mount since, again, object.
At the same time, going from what I said in the first place, standing on it might be technically plausible, while moving yourself probably not. It doesn't specify any forced movement on its own, and has literally no stats beside AC and a hitpoint. It has no strength (doesnt use your or any skills) not even its own movement speed, so it would be impossible to determine to what extent it can move something outside of using your Shove attack thru it or a similar effect.
Its quite a weird thoughts you are thinking. Echo itself cannot be grappling someone since, again, object. At the very least, I was thinking, it cant hold grapple, since the grappler has not to be incapacitated. The echo is not conscious, cant use actions, but at the same time it is technically immune to incapacitated? Are objects capable?
On the other hand, you have not to worry about it since you are the one doing the attack in the first place, so you... grapple yourself? There are two possibilities I see from there:
Either it works just the same as grappling yourself normally, so you cant fly yourself up unless you are Munchausen or something (in fact your speed is 0 anyway from that).
Or it means you are grappling yourself, but from the space adjacent to you, and idk what will happen if you then move the echo. This will not lift you tho, since the only way to move someone by grapple is by using your own movement (read Moving a Grappled Creature).
Atleast that's what Ive been able to come up with.
Let's maybe just say it can't grapple.
doing this with dao genie warlock + the feats crusher, the spell spike growth and enough sorc levels instead of fighter level for quicken is fun. quicken spike growth, push them 20ft then pull them 10ft then crusher then 5ft. If they walk up, do it again! that's 35ft moved, more at higher levels, and if you double it to 70ft with your reaction, it's what, 4d10+16+28d4+10 or so, depends on your level. Pretty fun, considering you don't even use outside help yet
Sometimes you annoy me but you 100% had me laughing this time. Love this build.
4:44 why get component pouch instead of casting focus?
Brilliant build! However, I'm not sure if Sentinel would work with War Caster like you described. War Caster means you cast a spell with your reaction RATHER than making an opportunity attack so I don't think it would trigger Sentinel.
Oh the sentinel? Sentinel doesn't work with warcaster. Thats correct. I didn't make a claim like that. If I did then I communicated that wrongly.
Literally a stand user build like some sort of Ball Breaker style of a stand
I would have picked Bane, a level one spell available to Undead Locks with the expanded spell list availability, or use Entangle if Strixhaven Backgrounds are permitted by the DM, having the Quandrix Student Initiate Feat being able to pick up Entangle as a first level spell or sleep if Entangle is the AoE CC you wanted to pick up with the first level wizard spell to get (Although many would like to have taken FF spell to gain an owl familiar to gain advantage over, or pick a hawk to be able to use Dragon's Breath with a 15 feet cone in an air attack)
Here is something (if it’s wrong let me know) you have a bugbear fighter the spear with the feet with that one feet that when u hit them they can’t move with reation and a open hand monk so they get attacked like four times on the monk turn
This takes two people but it would be super funny
Bugbear's reach is increased only on the bugbear's turn, not with reaction attacks
Here's the vote for a kobold build:
what about hexblade/echo knight? so u can focus harder on charisma when related to damage etc... and progress in any of those 2 clases look cool to me, ill try to figure out a build like that.
Form of dread doesn’t work on reactions unless you took the reaction on your turn
Have you considered a video on flock of familiars and how the complete party advantage it can give would effect play
More builds please!!! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Tips for DMs struggling to challenge an Echo Knight
> Have one enemy archer hold their attack for when the Echo appears
> Destroy Echo immediately
> Profit
Tips for Echo Knights struggling to keep their echo alive
> Summon your echo as a bonus action
> Have it eat an attack instead of one of your party members
> Tanking
@@Greywander87 Yeah I fail to see how this is a problem lol, job eating at least one attack well done.
@@Dinictus I don't remember exactly what I was implying when I made the comment, but I think that may have been my point. The echo is free to resummon, so you're basically spending a BA to negate one attack, maybe more if the enemy misses the echo. It's not a terrible trade, honestly, though it kind of depends what you're fighting. TBH, if the enemy isn't trying to kill your echo, then you're not making your echo dangerous enough. It's kind of similar to how I feel about Booming Blade; the point is not to get extra damage when the enemy moves, but to put them in a situation where not moving is worse than taking the extra damage. These kinds of tactics are all about stabbing the enemy with Morton's Fork, i.e. giving them nothing but bad options to choose from. No matter what they do, you win.
Thanks for the video! But... Isn't there a better option for our warlock subclass? See i was thinking what if taking the genie pick? That way if we keep picking warlock level, we end up with Limited wish which is quite powerfull
I don't know if my DM would allow that warcaster to come from your body's position.
Besides I've already got a stable of builds waiting in the wings anyways. It does remind me of my burrow through dungeons build(mobile+spirit projection+dimension door), the aim-assisted A-10(based on min/max's clocklock build), and The Charon of words build(a horrible lessons in why you need to see how the build works before you get married to the idea of the character. Warforged+ancestral guardian 10, college of swords 5, hexblade 5)
@@agilemind6241 I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding War Caster. Remember that the last bullet point states "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
So while the conditional is provoking an opportunity attack, you're essentially NOT taking that AoO to instead spend your reaction to cast a spell. And RAW you can't cast spells through the echo's space. I think treating War Caster's reaction as an AoO is incorrect according to RAW.
War Caster is simply letting you cast a spell with your reaction, and nowhere in the echo text does it state that you have any capabilities of casting spells through the echo's space.
If you want to use shit builds from min/max that's your choice lol, but I've played this build before and it works really, really well. It's incredibly refreshing too, as it feels like an entirely new class instead of a usual multiclass.
@@jonathanshi9367 yeah I think you’re missing the point of a lot of people’s comments… they are saying their DM wouldn’t let them because it doesn’t make intuitive sense to them and therefore their DM would instead rule differently. It’s not whether or not you actually think their DM is correct that matters.
This build already uses RAI to make several assumptions for this build. RAI the attack of opportunity if you used a weapon would essentially come from the space of the echo. You aren’t using your sword from your space to hit it. So to some people, War Caster and the echo AS INTENDED could very well mean that it should originate from the space of the echo regardless of RAW. You can’t cherry pick one vs the other and get mad when some people pick what they think the intention is in one place vs another just because it’s different from yours. It certainly seems like the INTENTION would be that the reactions are originating from the Echo’s square.
Obviously the whole reason this is even here is that Warcaster was probably not even considered when the class was designed (by someone not even on the WotC team) and as such the intention of the interaction between the echo and warcaster is ambiguous at best.
@@jonathanshi9367 the echo attack of opportunity counting as provoking an attack of opportunity from you is very gray area and the rules lawyering is for pretty nonsensical reasoning. Then you are going and asking for more rules leniency on echo durability. This probably won’t fly at many tables. Seems cool though.
@@jonathanshi9367 Can you please show me where it says you can't cast spells from the echoes space?
11:20 If the echo grapples someone who is in your reach then can it keep grappling.
I haven't got that far in the video yet and I haven't checked to see if this will actually work, but warcaster could allow a player to use their reaction to cast hold person on an enemy trying to escape and thus cancel out the rest of their turn
Cancel if he fail the save but he's also paralyzed meaning it's a Auto Crit with advantage on attack roll and fail every Dex save.
If you have the defensive Duelist feat, and someone attacks your echo, can you use your reaction to block it?
By strictest interpretation, no... An echo is not a character with the feat. Even Matt Mercer (when asked on Twitter about whether echoes triggered advantage through flanking) ruled that echoes are effects, not characters. Personally, I would allow it. You are using two features as intended, just at the same time. It has none of this shaky ground business like changing the action economy in the subject of this video. You're on solid ground as Rules as Intended and iffy ground as Rules as Written.
what do you do if the ennemy *does* destroy the echo, or is immune to the frightened condition ? How do you prepare against this ? Undead are common and immune to being frightened.
The frightened conditions is cool but isn't the best features in this builds it's the possibility to cast Repelling Blast as a reaction from by triggering an AoO from the Echo Space.
I feel like reaction Eldritch Blast should be a Warlock Subclass option already, maybe allowing you to use your bonus action to ready an Eldritch Blast or sth. like that
Im trying to figure out a way to get 6 levels of Bladesinger to work with this so you could EB, attack with a bow, and then use your echo to attack with a bow again but the ASI is not working out tbh.
If you really want Warcaster as well as starting with a CON save you could always do level 1 in Sorcerer for CON/INT saves. Especially if you are going to end up going sorcerer later has Pack Tactics states "is the most optimized and what Ronin would do." WWRD?