The defensive partner should also get to a point where they can respond to bad timing and criticism (hostility, angry tone and facial/body expressions, etc) without being defensive. Both partners need to learn to respond in more helpful and connecting ways to each other's imperfections.
This is good, but it still doesn’t answer an important question. How can we handle unfair expectations and unfair criticism without becoming defensive, especially if the other person isn’t open to revising their expectations? Here are a few examples: 1) I knew a couple who decided to have a weekly food budget of $40 for both people. Mostly, the husband insisted that would be the budget, and the wife gave in. She met the budget for a few months, and then one week she really wanted to try to eat healthy and bought cucumbers and that brought them to $42. He came unglued. I know about this situation because I ultimately was invited in to referee. I actually figured out that during that week he had gone out to dinner with his coworkers twice and just paid the bill. He was proud because both times he only spent $5 each time. However, that was not part of the budget, and he acted like because he was the man he was entitled to overspend the money without asking and without criticism. At the time, the wife only worked part-time, but she brought in way more than their weekly food budget to their joint finances. Ultimately, the husband listened to me when I pointed out that $40 for two weeks for two people for 3 meals a day was less than $1 per person per meal and I also asked an independent person he respected as being a cheapskate if they would be able to consistently feed two adults on $40 per week and she said no. But the point is it took ME pointing it out. He wouldn’t even listen to his wife when she tried to say the food budget needed to be revised, etc. In this situation, the wife can initially take responsibility for agreeing to a $40 weekly budget and then spending $42 without asking permission first. But how does she avoid becoming defensive in the discussion of saying going forward the food budget needs to increase because it is not reasonable? How does she respond when he husband starts accusing her of being lazy and wanting to live a lavish lifestyle and of not being efficient in cooking without either criticizing his hypocrisy or being defensive against his completely unfair and ignorant expectations? (Yes, they are now divorced, and he spends a heck of a lot more in alimony than he ever spent on the marriage). 2) I knew a man who suffered from narcolepsy. It took awhile, but he finally found a job that wouldn’t be affected if he accidentally fell asleep in the middle of working from time to time. His employer knew about his narcolepsy and hired him anyway. However, a middle manager who also knew about his narcolepsy would find him asleep at his desk and would regularly chew him out, and ultimately fired him for being unprofessional and falling asleep at work. This employee can take a certain amount of responsibility and apologize that his disability causes her frustration and looks unprofessional. He can even try to talk to her about ways to solve the problem that are doable. But the only solution she would accept was, “Don’t ever fall asleep at work again.” When he was hired, it was specifically with the understanding that he had a medical condition that he couldn’t control that occasionally caused him to fall asleep. He never agreed to stay awake at all times at work. How can he call out the manager’s unreasonable, unfair expectations while not becoming defensiveness and not criticizing? Theoretically, he could promise to try to never fall asleep at work again, but since it is a medical condition that he literally can’t control that is basically setting himself up for failure again because the expectation is unreasonable and, for him, unmeetable. (Yes, he probably could have sued, but like so many people I have known over the years he chose not to).
i think it's very key in the flow of horsemen - critical-defensive-contempt-stonewall - as a tit-tat flow. One leads into the other. in your summary "own how you approached" starts at were you critical or where you looking to resolve a dispute? if the partner is a spazz and overly defensive then well there's no amount of eggshelling around them will work and that person needs to therapy up. but if every interaction starts with an accusation that they fail as a human, then yes, the partner will get defensive, you will look down on them, continue the 1-2-3 cycle a few times until they chose to no longer interact -4.
Yes. It usually involves strong narcissistic traits in the person being defensive. People with strong narcissistic traits are very deeply damaged by any sense of being imperfect, and cannot handle constructive feedback of any kind, no matter how positively delivered.
@@Elemenohpea440 That is true. It can be hard to tell the difference from the outside, though. The behavior looks and feels the same to the non-defensive partner, and it's still just as damaging to all parties involved.
My husband is has been very critical of my character and the way I do things around the house. It's been 20 years of him being critical and me being defensive...then comes illness after trauma for me, and he goes and has multiple affairs. We are working on our cominucation. And we both need individual counseling and couples counseling for infadelity.
Hopefully you can also use it in the future. Remember, knowing and doing are not the same thing... and the latter is the more difficult. Try to start implementing this stuff in small ways now to see how it can make your relationships better.
What do you do when your partner is defensive without criticism and it doesn’t matter what topic. And you have asked your partner in a calm moment about what you can do to help communicate better so he doesn’t feel like he needs to become defensive and his response is “I don’t know.”? I have tried the “I feel” statements to try and reduce arguments and reduce the chance of defensive behaviors and I’ve tried to explain the “I feel” statements to my husband. What he does is something like this “I feel like you are {xyz thing}.” What do I do?
As of course I agree on not saying stuff aggressively etc., talk about the tone of voice is deflection. Saying such things is putting the defensive person a weapon in their hand - right to agree that it was the tone of voice that that is the issue, after not owning their faults. When you make a mistake, own it that the other person might get angry. Own it that it's not comfortable. Own it that it's not cool to feel like you hurt someone you love. Own it that you feel shame for you incompetence. Own it that you can fix it not by blowing up the fight over your partner's tone of voice, but being accountable. And own it that your own intepretation of their behavior might not be in the courtesy of them, because you were in a defensive mode!!! So if your partner is really busy, and you put even more load on them, and they're under great stress, they DON'T have the capability to mother you and take the responsibility for your emotions and reactions to them. It's not the other person's responsibility to make or not make anyone defensive. Defensiveness is immaturity and of course, partner can make it easier or more difficult to work for you, but they don't CAUSE it. If you are the defensive one, it's even more work for you to communicate clearly "sorry I'm getting defensive because I read your tone as aggressive, did you mean it?" instead of yelling at them, and assuming it was all about them. Don't be a tone police, when you exploit people's patience. Besides, you can also say "I'm working on my defensive reactions, and I'd appreciate if you told me [example] next time". So. The rules apply to everyone. I had a highly defensive partner (like, any tiny disagreement she'd go "and youuuuuuuuu?!?!?!") and she was always using the tone argument as a deflection. Even when I was under time pressure to do something and she asked me to help her with something else and I told her to hurry (typical "hurry!" tone, what would you expect), she would go for me and tell me a whole story about how *I* would react if she told me to hurry... But she wasn't that bad as me so she never did, so how did she know how I would react to that? And how she behaved really, because I still don't know... Just shielded up the deflection. So If I behaved as 'good' as her, meaning, also deflect, then I'd say a story about how she'd react if I told her to hurry, but she would tell me how I'd behave when she told me to hurry... and we'd be talking until death do us part LOL
What do you do when there is no element of truth to what the other person is accusing? For example, let's say the accusation is, "I'm always the one doing the dishes! You never do them!" But in reality, you do the dishes at least once or twice a day with very rare exceptions. What is the best way to respond in that kind of situation without getting defensive and escalating the situation?
Saying absolutes like “Always” and “Never” should be removed when communicating, rarely are situations where Always and Never are really true when you really think about it.
I've had the same problem. I have earned all the money for our survival for years, cooked and done the dishes 98% of the time. And i get told to do the dishes. You can guess what I'm thinking whilst I'm dumbfounded by the statement. I have started having to defend myself on so many issues for a while now. It's exhausting when someone is trying to gaslight you every day. I have still tried talking maturely about my feelings but they just get defensive straight away. You can't win. My defensiveness is justified, theirs is a fantasy in their head.
Is it possible for the horseman to come in a different order, such as a partner who is constantly defensive and stonewalls leading to criticism and contempt?
I guess I can admit I'm the Innocent Victim only because he constantly tells me it's all my fault, whatever his actions are , are only reactions to what I did first. Then comes the cussing, name calling and telling me to die. I suggested he watch these videos and his reply was "well they can't be that great if you watched them and you're still messed up." It looks like 25 years of marriage could very well be ending.
Nate Bagley and his Growth Marriage and Epic Marriage Club is not customer friendly, not response at all and instead if you sign up for epic marriage club they will continue to take your money because there’s not way to cancel the club. My husband has emailed Nate at least 37 times without responses.
I’ve read several of the Gottman’s book and you explained this perfectly. I needed the reminder of this today .
The defensive partner should also get to a point where they can respond to bad timing and criticism (hostility, angry tone and facial/body expressions, etc) without being defensive. Both partners need to learn to respond in more helpful and connecting ways to each other's imperfections.
This is good, but it still doesn’t answer an important question. How can we handle unfair expectations and unfair criticism without becoming defensive, especially if the other person isn’t open to revising their expectations?
Here are a few examples:
1) I knew a couple who decided to have a weekly food budget of $40 for both people. Mostly, the husband insisted that would be the budget, and the wife gave in. She met the budget for a few months, and then one week she really wanted to try to eat healthy and bought cucumbers and that brought them to $42. He came unglued. I know about this situation because I ultimately was invited in to referee. I actually figured out that during that week he had gone out to dinner with his coworkers twice and just paid the bill. He was proud because both times he only spent $5 each time. However, that was not part of the budget, and he acted like because he was the man he was entitled to overspend the money without asking and without criticism. At the time, the wife only worked part-time, but she brought in way more than their weekly food budget to their joint finances. Ultimately, the husband listened to me when I pointed out that $40 for two weeks for two people for 3 meals a day was less than $1 per person per meal and I also asked an independent person he respected as being a cheapskate if they would be able to consistently feed two adults on $40 per week and she said no. But the point is it took ME pointing it out. He wouldn’t even listen to his wife when she tried to say the food budget needed to be revised, etc. In this situation, the wife can initially take responsibility for agreeing to a $40 weekly budget and then spending $42 without asking permission first. But how does she avoid becoming defensive in the discussion of saying going forward the food budget needs to increase because it is not reasonable? How does she respond when he husband starts accusing her of being lazy and wanting to live a lavish lifestyle and of not being efficient in cooking without either criticizing his hypocrisy or being defensive against his completely unfair and ignorant expectations? (Yes, they are now divorced, and he spends a heck of a lot more in alimony than he ever spent on the marriage).
2) I knew a man who suffered from narcolepsy. It took awhile, but he finally found a job that wouldn’t be affected if he accidentally fell asleep in the middle of working from time to time. His employer knew about his narcolepsy and hired him anyway. However, a middle manager who also knew about his narcolepsy would find him asleep at his desk and would regularly chew him out, and ultimately fired him for being unprofessional and falling asleep at work. This employee can take a certain amount of responsibility and apologize that his disability causes her frustration and looks unprofessional. He can even try to talk to her about ways to solve the problem that are doable. But the only solution she would accept was, “Don’t ever fall asleep at work again.” When he was hired, it was specifically with the understanding that he had a medical condition that he couldn’t control that occasionally caused him to fall asleep. He never agreed to stay awake at all times at work. How can he call out the manager’s unreasonable, unfair expectations while not becoming defensiveness and not criticizing? Theoretically, he could promise to try to never fall asleep at work again, but since it is a medical condition that he literally can’t control that is basically setting himself up for failure again because the expectation is unreasonable and, for him, unmeetable. (Yes, he probably could have sued, but like so many people I have known over the years he chose not to).
i think it's very key in the flow of horsemen - critical-defensive-contempt-stonewall - as a tit-tat flow.
One leads into the other.
in your summary "own how you approached" starts at were you critical or where you looking to resolve a dispute?
if the partner is a spazz and overly defensive then well there's no amount of eggshelling around them will work and that person needs to therapy up.
but if every interaction starts with an accusation that they fail as a human, then yes, the partner will get defensive, you will look down on them, continue the 1-2-3 cycle a few times until they chose to no longer interact -4.
Is it possible for someone to be defensive even if their partner isn't being critical?
Yes. It usually involves strong narcissistic traits in the person being defensive. People with strong narcissistic traits are very deeply damaged by any sense of being imperfect, and cannot handle constructive feedback of any kind, no matter how positively delivered.
@@kathenderson7019 or they could have a strong sense of shame. People who feel shame deeply can be very defensive. It isn’t necessarily narcissism
@@Elemenohpea440 That is true. It can be hard to tell the difference from the outside, though. The behavior looks and feels the same to the non-defensive partner, and it's still just as damaging to all parties involved.
@@Elemenohpea440Shame is part of covert narcasism
@@Elemenohpea440that shame is the core of the narcissistic personality ❤️🙏
One of the most helpful and clear vids I've seen on defensiveness. Well don and thanks! 🙂
Thanks! So glad you enjoyed it.
My husband is has been very critical of my character and the way I do things around the house. It's been 20 years of him being critical and me being defensive...then comes illness after trauma for me, and he goes and has multiple affairs.
We are working on our cominucation. And we both need individual counseling and couples counseling for infadelity.
Thanks for this excellent advice and breaking down into what I can do about it, when I am on either side. I would have needed that in the past..
Hopefully you can also use it in the future. Remember, knowing and doing are not the same thing... and the latter is the more difficult. Try to start implementing this stuff in small ways now to see how it can make your relationships better.
What do you do when your partner is defensive without criticism and it doesn’t matter what topic. And you have asked your partner in a calm moment about what you can do to help communicate better so he doesn’t feel like he needs to become defensive and his response is “I don’t know.”? I have tried the “I feel” statements to try and reduce arguments and reduce the chance of defensive behaviors and I’ve tried to explain the “I feel” statements to my husband. What he does is something like this “I feel like you are {xyz thing}.” What do I do?
Your video was so clear and concise! Thank you, very helpful! 🙏🏽
You are so helpful! Thank you for your work!
Thanks! I'll try to keep it up!
As of course I agree on not saying stuff aggressively etc., talk about the tone of voice is deflection. Saying such things is putting the defensive person a weapon in their hand - right to agree that it was the tone of voice that that is the issue, after not owning their faults.
When you make a mistake, own it that the other person might get angry. Own it that it's not comfortable. Own it that it's not cool to feel like you hurt someone you love.
Own it that you feel shame for you incompetence. Own it that you can fix it not by blowing up the fight over your partner's tone of voice, but being accountable. And own it that your own intepretation of their behavior might not be in the courtesy of them, because you were in a defensive mode!!! So if your partner is really busy, and you put even more load on them, and they're under great stress, they DON'T have the capability to mother you and take the responsibility for your emotions and reactions to them.
It's not the other person's responsibility to make or not make anyone defensive. Defensiveness is immaturity and of course, partner can make it easier or more difficult to work for you, but they don't CAUSE it. If you are the defensive one, it's even more work for you to communicate clearly "sorry I'm getting defensive because I read your tone as aggressive, did you mean it?" instead of yelling at them, and assuming it was all about them. Don't be a tone police, when you exploit people's patience.
Besides, you can also say "I'm working on my defensive reactions, and I'd appreciate if you told me [example] next time". So. The rules apply to everyone.
I had a highly defensive partner (like, any tiny disagreement she'd go "and youuuuuuuuu?!?!?!") and she was always using the tone argument as a deflection. Even when I was under time pressure to do something and she asked me to help her with something else and I told her to hurry (typical "hurry!" tone, what would you expect), she would go for me and tell me a whole story about how *I* would react if she told me to hurry... But she wasn't that bad as me so she never did, so how did she know how I would react to that? And how she behaved really, because I still don't know... Just shielded up the deflection. So If I behaved as 'good' as her, meaning, also deflect, then I'd say a story about how she'd react if I told her to hurry, but she would tell me how I'd behave when she told me to hurry... and we'd be talking until death do us part LOL
My husband is critical about everything. If I say anything he is defensive.. not sure this is even a relationship
Another great video 🙌. I love the fire alarm analogy 😊
What do you do when there is no element of truth to what the other person is accusing?
For example, let's say the accusation is, "I'm always the one doing the dishes! You never do them!" But in reality, you do the dishes at least once or twice a day with very rare exceptions. What is the best way to respond in that kind of situation without getting defensive and escalating the situation?
Saying absolutes like “Always” and “Never” should be removed when communicating, rarely are situations where Always and Never are really true when you really think about it.
I've had the same problem. I have earned all the money for our survival for years, cooked and done the dishes 98% of the time. And i get told to do the dishes. You can guess what I'm thinking whilst I'm dumbfounded by the statement. I have started having to defend myself on so many issues for a while now. It's exhausting when someone is trying to gaslight you every day. I have still tried talking maturely about my feelings but they just get defensive straight away. You can't win. My defensiveness is justified, theirs is a fantasy in their head.
Great content. 👍🏻
Thanks!
Very hard to do- be calm, when you are BLINDSIDED,ATTACKED for something you / me in this case,I did not do!
Is it possible for the horseman to come in a different order, such as a partner who is constantly defensive and stonewalls leading to criticism and contempt?
Absolutely possible.
You didn’t take care of the laundry, ok I take of it….and it start a chain of command that I must do….
I guess I can admit I'm the Innocent Victim only because he constantly tells me it's all my fault, whatever his actions are , are only reactions to what I did first. Then comes the cussing, name calling and telling me to die. I suggested he watch these videos and his reply was "well they can't be that great if you watched them and you're still messed up." It looks like 25 years of marriage could very well be ending.
What if the accusations are really unreasonable
حلم 💭 ،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،،حلم حلم 💭 حلم 💭 حلم 💭
Nate Bagley and his Growth Marriage and Epic Marriage Club is not customer friendly, not response at all and instead if you sign up for epic marriage club they will continue to take your money because there’s not way to cancel the club. My husband has emailed Nate at least 37 times without responses.