Frank Miller Doesn't Understand Superman
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2022
- Harry and Connor discuss Frank Miller’s iconic reinvention of Batman, The Dark Knight Returns (1986).
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It's sad that when I was growing up, I never really understood Superman because that "alien demigod" interpretation was the dominant one. It wasn't until I read Red Son that I really understood what Superman was and why his backstory is so important. He's a Kansas farm boy who moved to the big city, and it's those experiences that shaped who he is. There's this funny little web strip I read where someone sees Superman and thinks he must feel superior to everyone else, but then you see Superman's inner monologue nervously hoping he doesn't disappoint anyone. And that, I think, is who Superman really is: Just an American man with strong values, who has the power to live up to those values in a way nobody else can.
Red son is a great. There's a lot to think about in that story it's not just clueless action or "subversion" there is an actual point to the narrative
There was a story (early 80's, maybe) where Superman had this spell that caused people to hallucinate him as a monster. He was almost incapacitated by the hostile and fearful public response, to the point that he ended up hypnotizing himself into hallucinating that people were cheering him on, so that he could continue to function. I felt sorry for him, being so incredibly insecure and dependent on the opinions of total strangers.
America 🤠
@@stevenscott2136 Well that’s fucking traumatic…
Well put sir. I like that take on superman.
Considering all the "What if Superman was Evil" variations i've seen, i think most writers don't understand Superman.
Do not understand, or understand and do not like? The latter would suggest a deliberate subversion of Superman. I suspect it is because they do notbbuy that anyone can be fundamentally good, especially someone culturally a salt of the earth American.
Supes is often mistaken as a product of his time, and yet he outlasted a lot of "modernized" superheroes in the field.
As much as I respect the comic book industry, it's practically the breeding ground for egocentric sensitive artists and writers. And if you're writing Superman, you gotta put that self-righteous entitlement to one side.
Superman: Red Son was the only good one.
@@MaxiusTheGod I think people misunderstand Superman in Injustice. He's not evil at all in that, he's gone completely insane. He's murdered his pregnant wife, Lois Lane, and as a result destroyed Gotham and killed millions of people. The knowledge of this has driven him insane with grief and rage, and he then makes the ACTUAL mistake: He killed Joker out of revenge, wrongly thinking it will make him feel better to kill the author of those events. Instead, it does what getting murderous revenge usually does to people: Makes him hurt WORSE. Which makes him MORE insane. So, he decides to make the world a utopia, with no crime, no want, no suffering. As his broken mind views it, anyway. Instead, he creates a far more horrible suffering: Everyone on Earth is trapped in a prison constructed by a mad demigod. And he finds it impossible to understand why anyone isn't grateful to him for this.
@@evensgrey
What’s with the cliche of revenge makes you worse off?
I always hated that one.
Sometimes the waste of time or resources angle makes sense. The emotionally worse part is dumb tho.
Superman vs the Elite is THE best take on who and what Superman really is. He shows WHY he does what he does and more importantly why he does NOT 'do the dark thing' . Excellent story and shows the depth of Superman's empathy.
Also shows how utterly terrifying Superman can be too since he was able to perform delicate laser brain surgery through a dude's eye by focusing his heat vision.
And it is in the theming alone that I appreciate Superman and Vash the Stampede. Difference is the second one is not bulletproof. He isn’t indestructible. He is powered by the sun and water but that’s unrelated.
I don’t mean to demean one over the other but elevate them both. Because they value life. They believe it isn’t their right to sort who lives and dies and even believes that they are doing their job right when they prevent others from taking that power on themselves.
So Superman is about causing millions of dollars in property damage?
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon
More than he is death, yes. I call this the “humanoid typhoon” effect.
Completely agree. I actually really love the animated adaptation of that story too and would highly recommend it to anyone. You can actually appreciate why and how Superman is the godfather of the superheroes when he's in the hands of storytellers who love and understand him (even though he's a partial ripoff of Doc Savage, but I digress). He's one of the greatest of the greats for a good reason.
That weird intro is still 1000 times better than any modern comic
you obviously haven't had the opportunity to experience this year's five issue run of Godzilla V. Power Rangers. 10/10
Why don't you like the modern comics?
@@richardhessel that's an outlier, though a good choice
That could be said of the barbecue whopper and nuggets I got advertised on this video lol
You haven't read Danny Coattes Thor run, or Immortal Hulk, or the latest Iron Man run, or Dan Slott's run on Amazing Spider-man.
Over the years, I think Frank switched his opinions on Superman and Batman.
In later installments of the Dark Knight universe, Superman is portrayed as a man who would do anything to save his adopted home world.
In the Dark Knight Return’s sequel, it’s explained the reason why he’s controlled by the US government is because Brainiac and Lex Luthor have his loved ones held hostage and the only way he can save them is by working for a system the supervillains have taken over. He’s essentially been coerced into acting as a stooge.
Later in the story, after Clark escapes the supervillains’ control, his daughter with Wonder Woman, Lara, often scoffs at his affection toward humanity. It’s here that he explains that everything he does, he does for the lives of others.
It’s not much compared to other authors who have written for Superman like Grant Morrison and Geoff Johns, but it was a step in the right direction.
However, in “All-Star Batman & Robin” and “Superman: Year One,” Batman is written as a sadistic jovial misanthrope with a terrorist agenda, who is also abusive to children. A far cry from how was depicted here and in “Batman: Year One.”
There’s a Comic-Con panel he had with other Batman writers and he speaks about what makes Superman special.
After some teasing about Superman by DC Comics writer Tom King, Frank responds by telling the panel that what makes Clark special, compared to Batman and so many others, is that he’s a “mentally healthy hero.”
Unfortunately, Frank Miller’s skills as a writer significantly waned (mainly due to various health reasons), so he could never properly show Superman acting the way he wanted to inside his head.
health reasons? Do you mean alcoholism? Sin City had some great writing but it's true that his writing waned. That Muhammed book he did looked like he was drunk while he made it.
I do not think his writing ability waned. He has stopped caring. He has left his artistic mark. Now he is in it for the cash, and the All-Star and all other stuff that came after The Dark Knight Returns was him seeing how much money can he squeeze out with the least amount of effort.
Just read TDKR, it reads like a final goodbye. A retirement plea. A final bowtie on a masterpiece of a career.
@@hatemongerofthetoxicbrood6561 He went batshit lunatic after that comic. Like, he's actually a legitimately actual racist sexist psycho now.
Those words get thrown around a lot, and abused a lot, but it fits with Miller today.
@@hatemongerofthetoxicbrood6561 I gotcha. I think he still had some more left to give, especially during the mid to late 90s. Everybody knows Sin City, which is pretty much loved by fans, critics and colleagues alike. But he also worked on children’s comics like “Big Guy and Rusty the Robo Boy” and more adult books like his “Martha Washington” series, which were both pretty well done.
What’s funny is, despite his writing, he can be rather eloquent and insightful in person when it comes to superheroes, especially in his old age.
Tbh, I’d rather take that kind of newer attitude from Frank rather than a snide cynical one from more modern writers
"A Mentally Healthy Hero"
God. I love that.
Why does Superman feel threatened? 8 billion hostages...
Literal teleport. Bam, problem solved.
Actually, the story with the gay dude and his twink that mustache man had assasinated in bed is much more nuanced and interesting. He wasn't killed for his sexual predilictions, he was killed as part of a power play within the up and coming party and the guy posed too much of a threat/rival to mustache's authority. In other words he knew all about the gay stuff and was like, 'Whatever, I don't approve, but he's too important in our thing.' ...Til he wasn't.
Interesting.
There were quite a lot of gay men among the storm troopers (brown shirts), including their leader, appointed by mustache man, who knew all about the guy's preferences. Some of the Catholic not sees didn't like the association to the men who liked men, and the SS never liked the brown shirts. There was a whole bunch of infighting among mustache man's party's many groups.
@@faded1to3black The SS originally WERE Brown Shirts. They were originally Mustache Man's hand-picked personal bodyguard. (SS is for Schutzstaffel, which can be translated as "Protection Squad." It quickly grew, however, and had the advantage over the SA as the Party's armed wing in that it was actually well disciplined and under Mustache Man's control, rather than an independent and somewhat flaky branch of the Party, so they wouldn't just randomly brawl in the streets. The random street violence was starting to become a political problem for Mustache Man after he got the top political post. The Night of the Long Knives, when the SS took out the SA's leadership, was the night Mustache Man had all of his real and perceived political enemy's killed or imprisoned, and is the original reason the concentration camps were built, simply to expand the civilian prison system to be big enough to hold all the new prisoners.)
@@evensgrey Also I believe the SA was simply loyal to the party and not the leader of the party while the SS was completely subservient to the party leader. The leader of the SA had an army that was essentially more loyal to him. And that wasn’t going to fly with me he party leader.
@@holdenmuganda97 Yes and no. The leader of the SA, Ernst Röhm, as well as large parts of the SA's inner circle could be considered part of the left wing of the NSDAP. Meaning they firmly advocated the need for an actual revolution in Germany, which for example would see the SA replace the Reichswehr (= The German Army). This was something neither Hitler nor the Army High Command could ever allow, for obvious reasons, which in turn somewhat disillusioned Röhm and the SA.
Despite this, it is unlikely that Röhm would have ever attempted a coup from what we can assume, but given that he and the SA had outlived their usefulness, and turned more and more into a burden with their excessive behaviour (both in public as well as in private), no one really questioned the statement of the supposedly planned coup that was made public after the SA leadership got put in the ground.
Superman a man for all seasons is a really good Superman story.
Superman vs the Elite is one I enjoyed. Where he shows the people exactly why he doesn't think that him using violence is any kind of real solution. For one thing he knows that if he did he'd be far too good at it.
Grant Morrison's All Star is the definitive Superman story.
Thank you for the recommendation. This looks really good.
You act like not getting Superman is an exclusively Frank Miller problem. It's not. It's an exclusively entertainment industry problem.
People with more cynical nihilist worldviews that compose almost the entirety of the entertainment industry (especially Superhero comics), are always inherently suspicious of those with power. Because you know the old saying "Absolute power always corrupts absolutely". So when they see a character like Superman caring for humanity, being a good heroic kind person, saving lives, and being as good pure and unselfish as a human being can be AND having near absolute omnipotence. It proves their entire way of viewing the world wrong, and gives them a chip on their shoulder.
Add in him believing in such things as Truth (most leftists think truth is relative), Justice (to a leftist justice is mob rule and social justice) and the American Way (most modern leftists hate america) and having him be a straight masculine man who grew up in Kansas, was raised by a normal nuclear family and is married to a straight white woman. It drives them into a righteous indignant frenzy, and pushes them to try and subvert and deconstruct and slander the entire concept of the character. At least in Frank Millers DKR. Superman at least seems to like America and have something like a respect for authority and the American way and values. Unlike modern Superman stories, and modern Superman-expy characters like Homelander, Omniman and Dr Manhattan.
Can you imagine a modern day version of Superman doing favors for Donald Trump the way Dark Knight Returns Superman does for Ronald Reagan here (or any republican president)? I highly doubt it.
Perfectly encapsulated everything I wanted to say.
Buddy Superman is a fictional character and the fact that you think that Superman would be good if he actually existed shows you’re still a child.
Also if power doesn’t corrupt I bet you think all presidents where good people and none of them where corrupt. Or maybe you’re such an ignorant hypocrite that you think only democrats are bad😂
Edit: also why do you have a picture of Butcher? You are aware the boys is literally socialist propaganda
Thank god you brought this up. I did love TDKR back in the day. But as time passed by and looking at the world today, I realised the importance of superheroes and the importance of holding onto our morals, and the one hero who embodies it perfectly is Superman. Turning him into a government stooge just boils my blood.
In Frank’s defense, I think he’s switched his position over the years. He actually referred to Superman as a “mentally healthy hero” when asked what makes him special compared to Batman during a panel with Tom King.
His portrayal of Superman has become more inline with how most fans view the character over the years.
His “Superman: Year One” comic is terrible, but thankfully not because of the way he writes Superman. Instead the plot and the dialogue are just barely coherent lol
wasn't that comic supposed to be about an aging batman struggling to operate in a world that has pretty much forgotten him? i think it's supposed to feel depressing and deconstructive.
What a bizarre take on TDKR Superman. You actually believe he isn't acting from a position of morality? My take is that the world changed and Superman didn't. Everything he does he does to keep doing what he has always done; protect humanity. He doesn't go rogue. He follows the law of his country and its elected officials. To do anything else would lead Clark down an authoritarian path. You say he's a "stooge", but I disagree. He's in the best place he can be considering the alternatives. Of course Bats makes him look like an asshole.
@@Tusitala1967 the issue with that idea though is what happens when the government officials decide to try and use him as a weapon? Will he follow orders for the betterment of humanity or will he actually fight them as they try and control people even though in doing so he is damaging humanity?
@@shadowjezzter Great point. I think Superman is the better alternative to a conventional military response, because he can disable without killing. However navigating the orders he has been given could lead him to a dark place. I think some sort of deal must be in place between Clark and the administration; the sort of deal Reagan would not want to violate.
I don't know how this started and has spread so successfully that I have found myself correcting people for twenty years, but, and I say this with all sincerity, all chaps, by their very nature, are assless. I hope that clears up any confusion.
If chaps had asses, they'd just be leather pants.
But normally chaps are worn over something with their primary purpose being to protect your legs from cuts or abrasions.
The term assless chaps much like the term naked apron is a fashion term that refers to wearing ppe in such a manner that it completely negates its original purpose, but damn does it look sexy.
Never in my life did I think I'd see 2 British men criticize FDR
The IMAGERY of Superman was amazing. Down to a T of what he's supposed to be. Nice touch with the eagle. Unfortunately that all come to a crash when he becomes sock puppet for the narrative.
When you mentioned Gaston it made me think about John Doyle's "Why beauty & the beast is inherently right wing" & then I thought about how amazing a Lotus Eaters/John Doyle podcast would be. I know it's probably impossible as you like to have all your guests in person, but my God, that would be brilliant.
A John Doyle/Lotus Eaters would be a great, high energy crossover. Depends on which of the Lotus Eaters would be on it. Maybe Callum for the funnies.
John Doyle carries quite a QAnon energy.
Where has Doyle been anyway?
@@blade1hunter100 he passed, unfortunately. Was in a car crash. Bless his soul
What?
Batman Arkham Asylum by Grant Morrison is a good one too. The art is so creepy and depressing
To be fair, he doesnt understand Batman either
Gotta say Connor’s got some weird opinions on comics but I won’t lie Yakuza Joker not bad
Yakuza Joker?
It’s a great look super menacing
@@MegaSpideyman look up yakuza tatoo
Ah, sorry, I know what you're talking about now.
Lmao, that Biden Cutaway was perfect 😂👌
Miller just doesn’t understand heroes. He gets wrapped up in the power dynamics. Superman just exposes this more than say Batman or Daredevil because there’s just no darkness for him to expose.
Batman was libertarian in the Dark Knight returns as Superman was authoritarian in the comic. Batman’s flaw is that his libertarianism can allow dangerous criminals roam free as Superman’s flaw is that his authoritarianism can allow innocent people loose their freedom. Their flaws are the opposite of each other.
wow this turned out to be a way better video than just a talk about comics. you guys are great!
Superman represents hope and goodness. Two things that Frank Miller has never understood.
I'm still a huge fan of Miller's 1986 Opus, but I remember laughing my head off when I read a recent Marxist critique of _The Dark Knight Returns_ who saw Miller supposedly advocating crypto-fascism in every page. Any educated, non-Marxist reading is going to see FAR more of a deliberate parallel with the fall of the western Roman Empire, the onset of the Western Dark Ages, and the rise of Feudalism, including Knighthood. Batman is the Dark Knight of the new Dark Ages, Superman is a surviving, still dangerous force of the old, repressive Empire, whose propping up of the system ironically deepens the internal social decay and corruption.
When it comes to Frank Miller, I don't think "not understanding" a character is ever applicable. His rep is about reinventing or reinterpreting characters. He's an iconoclast, the guy who deconstructs the old clay. For better or for worse. (In the case with Daredevil, it was the former, big time). I DID like his more assailable version of Superman in The Dark Knight books. It was darkly and refreshingly amusing.
There was an excellent Batman story where Joker actually is cured for a while and goes by Jack Napier, I forget the name of it but I'd recommend the series its only a few books.
White knight, my guy there Is a follow up white knight beyond but I'm sure what it's means.
*“The readers conscience died with the deceased writers”*
-
*“You're beginning to get the idea, Frank Miller. We could have changed the world…now…look at us…superheroes and metahumans become a political liability…and…you…you're a joke”*
Frank Miller and Zack Snyder seem to hold the same understanding of Superman so it’s strange to praise Man of Steel but not This
Exactly, dogshit Edgelord takes on Superman always miss the mark
@@Gokiza Always?
It isn't the same understanding. Snyder's Superman was still selfless, and a beacon of hope for Earth, and even killed the last Kryptonians to save humanity. That's all 100% Superman. Reeve's Superman also killed them, and was far more cold blooded about it.
@@faded1to3black No. Snyder presented Superman as the beacon of hope but failed to show him being hopeful or even just nice.
Clerk doesn’t think of himself as a human. He consistently thinks of himself as alien and even talks about not being Jonathan and Marthas son and his people are Kryptonions like when he finds the old ship he tells Martha, “I found my people”.
He seems reluctant to save anyone and does it primarily out of obligations. When people are in danger he mostly ignores them. He destroys the unborn Kryptonion’s for no other reason then to hurt Zod. He refuses to kill Zod until forced to but he never expressed any reservations on killing. We see with the truck scene that he is very petty. He also risks revealing his powers over and over without much concern.
@@JayV949 he was nice plenty. He smiled and was pleasant.
He does think of himself as human, but also kyptonian, which he objectively is.
I don't know what movie you've watched, but in the one I saw, he defended Smallville as a brand spanking new Superman on his first day at the job, and never complained about it or seemed reluctant in any way. Despite not needing to, he turned himself in to the military to save Earth. He died to save it in BvS, and also appeared in that hearing as a showing of good faith when he didn't need to do that either.
The pods in the ship were not kyptonian babies, they were pods to use to birth new babies, which Zod was using to raise a new army he would be in control of.
I don't know where you get the idea that he'mostly ignored them'. Every time he needs to save anyone and can, he did.
As for the truck thing, it can be seen as petty, but Superman has been shown to do stuff like that to teach people a lesson without physically harming them. He does this in Superman II as well with the truck driver (except Reeve went out of his way to return to the restaurant with his powers, as Clark, to throw the guy around the place).
So sorry, I don't buy what you're selling. It doesn't add up to what's actually depicted in the movie.
There are some great villains I've seen and scheming sociopaths like the Joker are amazing, but the kind of villain that can be most interesting in my opinion are those who can make the readers question the hero's position. After the villain is defeated the hero goes home and it feels like an empty battle, because even the hero is questioning themselves. It gives way for an emotional battle that can make the hero even stronger in a way.
He knows the Dark Knight but not the Man of Steel.
I most read his original works, though. Ronin, Sin City, you get it.
Ronin was a consummate MASTERPIECE.
Maybe you had to be there as a reader when the comic came out.
It's at the emergence of Gen X. Miller is a Boomer but Gen X rebellion was being felt although not yet named.
The Dark Knight tapped into that. And Clark is culturally American but is genetically Kryptonian.
He is also the son of Jor El, who obeyed the One world government of Krypton and remained silent while Krypton was nearing its doom. It might be Kryptonian to be well intentioned but more obedient to government and try to be good in those limits.
As Clark is doing.
Batman is the dissident right wing populist.
It’s not Superman, but he still understands Superman more than Amazon understands The Lord of the Rings
8:40
I think it has more to do with the fact that a battle between Superman and the US Government would cause a lot of collateral damage and result in lots of innocent people being hurt. And Superman feels it's in humanity's best interest to avoid picking a fight with the US government, who he still thinks is the best for the human race.
And that's the one thing that DKR Superman's character right that other attempts and the other frank miller stories fail to understand. Superman doesn't want to be a dictator.
There is dictator and there is puppet, I'm not even sure than that superman even tried to stop the American government and there's still a nuclear war head that was launch in America and there it was only superman who could stop it, not the American government, hell he would disarm an entire army without killing them and still give em a lecture about war, orders and choices, it's that this superman didn't tried having other choices.
Been waiting for this
I remember that some of the political subtext in the first volume was quite subtle, such as when the mayor (I think) is advised to go into the cell of the Mutant leader by a government official "you couldn't really call it courage" - to get ripped to shreds and then you see the same official standing behind the new mayor. Personally, I wouldn't put too much stock in Frank Miller's political commentary (he certainly has his moments) but this is an excellent excuse to dig my copies out, and relive the thrill of awaiting the next issue, as the colour palette got gradually richer and brighter! Still a "desert island" comic!
While I like a good bit of the dark knight returns, it falls into the trap too many comic writers fall victim to of trying to connect the comic to contemporary events, and assuming every reader shares their exact left wing views on everything. Really good superhero stories like Batman Year 1, or The Killing Joke could be set basically anywhere in time because they deal with the fundamental themes of the character and their world.
dkr isnt leftist at all bruh
I think DKR has Batman being the populist right winger and superman is the globalist . Miller only became left wing years later.
@@nuckygulliver9607 miller never became a leftist, he became more right wing over the years
Are you going to tell me that stories like Watchmen are bad because they reflect on a period of our time? That's so juvenile and close minded...
Röhm was found with his driver who was of Age. But he is recorded to have had an affinity for younger men (Knaben).
Excellent video guys. I could listen to you talk about comics as a part of a dinner and a show.
The 22d Amendment wasn't introduced and ratified until seven years after FDR croaked, so it's a mischaracterization to say it was arranged "to stop him becoming a dictator" when he won his terms fair and square.
His motivation in '40 and '44 was about seeing the country through the international crisis, and the public agreed with that idea, whatever the bent of his economic policies.
Odd to me as well to hear two Brits appear to hold the idea that American intervention in that conflict, however 'dragged' was somehow 'unnecessary' given the stakes.
Would love a review of the Kingdom Come comic if you guys have ever read it.
I thought it was terrible.
Why does the Clark Kent in the thumbnail have belt so tight under the ribcage, the shirt unbuttoned so low, the trousers so tight, it's so weird
I'm really fed up with the "Evil Superman" stories. Every writer who does it thinks they are being original and edgy, but its so common now. Its actually trite and bland. And not very deep at all. Everyone knows the axiom of absolute power and corruption, and that the average person would go mad with Superman's powers. That is what makes Superman such a special character. His powers DON'T corrupt him.
I always hated Superman in the Frank Miller comics. I love everything else, but Superman is just so off. One of the things Man of Steel did right was when Clark turned himself into the military and said something along the lines of "You're scared of me because you can't control me. You don't, and you never will. But that doesn't mean I'm your enemy." If only the film didn't try turning supes into Jesus.
Do yall got a video goin over ur opinions on fdr
Hey guys, could you go in depth about Herbert Hoover and FDR sometime?
"assess chaps" that isn't a thing. They're JUST chaps. There are NO "assed chaps."
Why does everyone call them as though they're a version when they're the default and that's it?!
Thank you! Gawd! I've been saying this for years.
Did their channel just get nuked?? I'm not seeing any new uploads..
All I know is that we shouldn’t vote for senior citizens with dementia any more!!!
Enjoyed this. Could chat with you two for ages.
The page with Superman staring out into the distance needed the eagle to look American. Otherwise if you look at the pose & artwork it looks like a classic Soviet propaganda piece.
I thought Frank Miller was the bad guy from "High Noon".
I take it that this channel is frozen too.
my guess too
Frank miller made me hate superman for a decade because it was the biggest superman thing my library had
Yeah he also stated that he hates the man of steel 😢 Smallville actually made me a big fan of Superman
@@colechung7806 🤮
eeeeeeeh.....NO LADS....I'm sorry....Frank UNDERSTOOD Superman in 'The Dark Knight Returns'. He just gave Superman a place to GO with his arc. Start off with Supes as an errand boy for the gubbmint, then teach him some lessons in the form of a serious beating from Bats, then show us how he's changed when he WINKS at Robin at the end of Batman's funeral scene.
Nope...you read that setup and finish ALL WRONG. He augmented what Supes stands for, by giving him a chance to re-prove himself.
This is what Bats saw in Supes, in that glorious splash page with Supes standing there in the sunlight, 'as if it were all there for him'. Bats was seeing in Supes what he wanted to RETURN in Supes.
Do a review on Brat Pack next please (possibly Maximortal as well). It's quite refreshing to see discussion of the Superman as character.
This was absolutely brilliant! Grew up on comics (they mostly all suck nowadays sadly) loved to see some intelligent lads discuss the ins and outs of what I was always told by adults were nothing more or deeper then children's picture books (they are not)
No. Not even close.
TDKR doesn't assert that Superman is a dictator in waiting. It says the opposite. Bruce outright criticises him for not having the stomach to make a change. "Who do they send after you?"
Bruce holds Clark in contempt for his failure to stay true to his old self. He's nothing but a weapon now. When Gotham is hit with an EMP, he curses Clark for letting them do it.
Bruce sees Clark as having the capacity to make the world right, but not the spine. He doesn't "Force the world to make sense."
He doesn't understand Batman either, to be honest.
My favorite part was when Connor said Reagan ended the Cold War. What will he give us as an encore, an assurance Putin destroyed the NordStream pipeline?
The Cold War hasn't ended, only shifted forms & theaters of operation.
It's more he was raised to believe he was human - and since Kryptonians have such a keen intellect in general (far outstripping humanity's current level by all accounts, though many forget this and most authors just let him come in and bash the big "unstoppable" monster of the week) he learned to be a better human altogether than most of us will ever do. He CHOOSES to be human; thus does he exemplify it to a greater degree in the point of Humane. Because he has all that power. Because he genuinely is a protector first. Not just the end all to be, of everything. The Justice League TV Series did an excellent job in explaining why their version of Superman seemed for the length of much of it's run, so weak compared to what he should be. The world is cardboard monologue, just before he lets Darkseid really have it. That, is the point of Superman. He was written by immigrants, who wanted to be American, and by all accounts I would judge they had a better grasp on American ideals of the "Dream" at that time. The thing is: Lex isn't wrong. Nor is Bats. It's why it was a cool little poignant moment between Clark and Bruce during Tower of Babel when he gave him the Kryptonite bullet. He knows, and so does Bruce that if Superman (Clark) ever did really decide to go dark and go all in, there's NO CHANCE in hell that Bruce would ever get to fire that bullet. But it's a compensational safety blanket for a broken man who wants to believe he can be safe... and a constant warning [Though by now, much less of one if we're going by how often Clark's been riddled with Kryptonite and survived it - he even got tattooed with it for years in one DC movie and it only made him a little better on average than a peak athelete human] to himself as to what could happen. A tripwire, psychosematically as it were. To remind him (not like he needs it to be honest) of the point that he's not a god. He's just the closest thing to a living breathing, relatable and down to earth one that Earth's got. ** He is far too powerful; but the people he cares about are just people. They, are not too powerful. Lois is very well known in the public eye and it would take the authorities about five seconds to drag her in. His mom is very old, not likely able to resist or willing to as she is a traditionalist american. So Superman himself is not bound and that is true... but unless he's willing to build a fortress on the moon and lock Lois, his mom and Jimmy there for the rest of their lives, he is effectively hamstrung to oblige the people in power. Besides, there's a reason they call him "the big blue boyscout"
Super man isn't afraid of anyone that we know of.
The reason why Superman isn't a monster has something to do with the way he was brought up.
I just get the feeling that superman just wouldn't do it because he knows it's wrong. That's what all these writers fail to realize is the level of moral conviction Clark has he would stand by what he believes is the right thing even if the whole universe turns against him for it.
The best Superman comic I ever read was All-Star Superman, that comic perfectly portrayed who Superman is, and how important heroes like that are to the world.
Soooo, is the superman that appears at the end of black adam the same as the superman of this book?
I do really like Death of the Family and anything to do with Earth 3. My profile pic is not just a colourswapped Joker, he's Jokester, he's a good man who tries to use his insanity to save the day and spread joy in a utter dystopia. He's more interesting to me than Batman and Superman because of the hopelessness of bare humans (Jokester, Alex Luthor, Stringray) going against evil gods with powers and vast resources.
The thing that most writers don't get about Superman is that they write about Superman, when what they should be writing about is Clark Kent; but they seldom write towards Clark Kent, they write Superman pretending to be Clark Kent. Essentially they take Kill Bill's interpretation of Superman and ran with it: That Superman has this critique of humanity as he pretends to be Clark Kent, who is presented as weak and powerless; and that his true self is Kal-El the Last Son of Krypton, a god among men.
In reality Superman is Clark Kent and always has been Clark Kent: Just a kid who grew up in a small town, who wants to live a quiet life, raise a family, and do the right thing. Every version of Superman that has gone off the rails is when Clark Kent forgets himself, or he was never Clark Kent at all. If a good man comes into power, will they be corrupted by it? The lesson given is that while there are many, many temptations to be corrupted by that power, to abuse it; it is possible to do the right thing regardless. That living and letting live is the correct course of action. It's not his responsibility to bubble wrap the world, nor his place to do so. His stereotype for the longest time was a super-powered Boy Scout, and that means helping old ladies cross the street and getting cats out of trees; not world domination or changing the course of history. That it's the little actions that any of us can do is what ultimately changes the world for the better, not decapitating dictators. Perhaps most importantly is that even when Clark Kent suffers, he will still do the right thing; because at the end of the day he's a good man.
Entertainment's obsession with breaking of good men has resulted in a culture that's almost completely devoid of them. How many modern heroes exist now that aren't saddled with emotional and mental trauma? How many of them struggle to do the most obvious of good deeds? How many would be willing to reject power as to not be corrupted by it?
Whoever is responsible for the editing of these videos, they deserve a hefty pay rise.
I hope you guys cover the yakuza videogames
Not only does he not understand Superman's character (no way he would stand by and let America become what we saw in "Dark Knight Returns"). He doesn't understand Superman's powers or even basic science.
Superman, weakened by a nuclear explosion, draws sunlight from flowers. Flowers don't STORE sunlight they convert it into chlorophyll. The dumbest scene in the whole run.
I didn't see Superman's obedience coming from fear. He seemed to have lost confidence in his own judgements, or his connection to humanity.
They mention hearings, where Batman made them look like criminals. I could imagine there was some kind of battle with WAY too much collateral damage, which caused government action. Perhaps Superman and Wonder Woman made a very bad call, and feel responsible, and unqualified to manage their own powers.
But, Superman saying things like 'it's their world', and meekly obeying the president always suggested to me that Clark lost his connection with humanity. His parents are dead. Lois, and everyone else, would have aged, while he didn't. It would be hard for anyone with that sort of immortality, particularly with the powers of a demigod, to remain connected to those around him. Clark would still want to "do good", but without his circle of friends, and without the shared concerns of everyday humans, it might become difficult to decide what that is. Especially when Superman is overly concerned with abusing his power. Simply surrendering that power to those in authority, would give Clark a way to "be good", and serve the, theoretical, will of the people, without the burden of choice and responsibility. A bit like the lockdown, and mask Nazis in 2020-21.
Harry dear, our national bird is specifically a BALD eagle. Ordinary eagles are subpar.
Lookin good Harry
Hoover did a number of stupid things at the start of the great depression. FDR did them as well with ten times the intensity.
You lads need to get nerdrotic on to go over the state of modern comics
When Batman and Superman are at their best Batman knows that Superman is more human the he could ever be.
Bad takes. The writing in Dark knight return is probably one of the best and Frank Miller is spot on.
I'd be interested in you guys discussing FDR's ruining of America.
I always felt that if America looked in the mirror its reflection would be Superman.
Just go watch the superman cartoon.
banned? i see no uploads
Please do more comic videos or 40k videos that would be awesome
I can’t find the quote but I think Miller once said something to the effect of “I don’t want to see Superman’s armpit sweat, I want to see Superman fly,” as a way of mocking the portrayal of Superman that brought him down to the level of a pathetic weakling. Based on that quote, I think Miller did get the appeal of the character, but when he wrote TDKR he needed a villain and the idea of Batman fighting Superman was too good to resist so he broke Superman’s character to make him the villain of Batman’s story. As a “dark, twisted alternate reality,” I like it, but I’d agree that the portrayal isn’t the core of who Superman is since he’s a heroic ideal.
Frank Miller understands Superman just fine; he just doesn't like him.
Superman doesn't take orders from legitimate authorities because he's afraid of them, he takes orders from legitimate authorities because THEY'RE LEGITIMATE AUTHORITIES, and he believes in the rule of law and holds himself to the same standard he wants others to obey. It's an issue of moral integrity and not being a hypocrite.
I could go MUCH deeper into why Superman is who he is, because I've been reading him for almost 50 years, and I know the character inside and out. But suffice it to say, he understands that he's NOT God, and that one day, he'll have to answer to the One who IS.
Batman is libertarian to non-superheroes but authoritarian to superheroes. Superman is authoritarian to non-superheroes but libertarian to superheroes.
Batman is a necessary rebel superhero and Superman is a necessary authority figure superhero. Batman struggle in life is not to be a rebel to the point of becoming a terrorist. Superman’s struggle in life is not to be authority figure to the point of becoming a tyrant.
You are who you surrounded yourself with and the same goes with Batman and Superman. Batman’s greatest enemy the Joker is essentially a terrorist as Superman’s greatest enemy Lex Luthor is essentially a tyrant. Batman is surrounded by Joker’s temptation to terrorize other people but he fights against it. Superman is surrounded by Lex Luthor’s temptation to tyrannize other people but he fights against it.
Jared Leto's Joker is perfectly consistent with the 3 Jokers theory which existed long before Leto's interpretation. (Check out Film Theory's video about it)
Frank Miller's a writer who has achieved greatness, his run on Marvel's Daredevil Born Again Saga in particular. Other times Miller can go sideways into crazy town, see All-Star Batman & Robin, the Boy Wonder, incredible art by Jim Lee.
That's the Before Times (TM) and the After Times (TM). He went from greatness to complete lunatic.
1:22 Cultural enrichment, that's why.
the man butchered superman's image
I believe miller is right, this is the story of Apollo, everyone thinks Apollo with overthrow Zeus, including Zeus but he never does. That's the correct positioning against Superman.
I love TDKR & it's one of my top 10 comics of all time but how Frank Miller portrayed Superman in TDKR especially t how Superman was drawn when talking to Bruce & his standing like some massive douchbag with a eagle on his arm just felt like a pose Superman/Kal-El/Clark Kent would not do, don't get me wrong Superman does do poses but usaully his poses are not douchie. Also ripping off one of Olivier Queens/Green Arrows arm is a little too much! Superman faster then a speeding bullet couldn't just get behind Greenarrow & choke him out or a flick on the chin to KO him but resorted to rip off or eye laser GA's one arm off is a little too much, no matter how much GA was a pain in the ass, the guy was Clark's friend, a member of the JL not some common criminal
Clark Kent is more human than Bruce will ever be!
That's the crux of their dynamic.
@@marinribaric9749 Exactly!
People like to think they understand superman.. but its completely superficial.
Remember Bill's speech at the end of Kill Bill 2! Complete nonsense! lol
@@chrismaddock598 Agreed. Also when thinking of who Superman is, I keep coming back at the cartoon series and the Justice League cartoon. Particularly, that one Christmas episode where invited the Martian Manhunter over to the Kent farm for the holidays.
That seems to be a rather limited view of humanity, but I see where you're coming from.
Exactly. Always hated franks take on him.
I am so glad my comic book life was the 1970's/EARLY 80s!
The first transgender clinic was built in Weimar Germany in 1919 and was the first place to perform sex change operations and hormonal therapy. It was burned to the ground not long after mustache man rose to power in 1933 on his orders, along with over 20,000 books and papers detailing, promoting, and studying trans, gay, and other sexual deviants. It is considered one of the greatest setbacks to the transgender agenda in history.
It is kind of amazing that anyone who lived through the late 70s managed to maintain their hated of Reagan.
Bruno confused the shit out of me when I was in 3rd grade. I literally didn’t know it was supposed to be trans until now
"Transsexual Nazis" sounds like a Weird Al lyric about talkshows. I believe the actual line (from "I Can't Watch This") was "transsexual Nazi Eskimos". Which is just a three-fer for getting cancelled: "Transsexual" and "Eskimo" are considered slurs; the preferred terms are "transgender" and "Inuit" or "Yupik", respectively. And mentioning the Nazis in a non-serious context is right out. #DropWeirdAl
At 3:50 are you confusing Ralph Waldo Emerson with Ralph Lauren?
Truth, justice, and the American way.
I like that these guys have a genuine understanding and knowledge of comic books. I don't think I agree with the criticisms of the Dark Knight Returns. The Swastic lady to me represented the disinigration of society. As for Superman, he fit this one story perfectly. The problem with the Dark Knight Returns is the aftermath. The lesser writers all jumped on the bandwagon and now Superman and Batman are badly writ shadows of this story.
Grant Morrison's All-star Superman is peak Superman.
Miller has only ever ONCE had a true understanding of Batman and that is in Batman Year One. Dark Knight Returns is a good story, but it is very far from being true to the DC universe as a whole. It utterly ruins Superman by turning him from "embodying the American dream" to "Government stooge" I respect a lot of Frank Millers work, his Wolverine miniseries with Claremont had some of his best art he has ever drawn. Its acceptable I suppose seeing as it is entirely non canon.
Well, it's canon to one reality, sure, with the ol' multiverse.