My preference has always been long keel, solely because keel bolts make me nervous. They are not very easy to inspect properly. That being said... my dad's boat, on which I learned to sail, had bolts and despite the boat being over 20 years old at the time they were in excellent condition.
I was always fond of twin/bilge keels that were strong enough to be beached. I keep thinking about Wicked Salty and some of the others that have had to do an emergency haul. Would have been nifty to have the option of beaching the boat to do an emergency repair.
When I was young, we went to Wales for vacation and all the sailboats had twin bilge keels. At low tide, the harbor was completely dry and the sailboats were all standing upright just waiting for the tide to come back in again!
Very interesting video - thanks. You didn't mention lifting keels or centreboards. I'm naturally biased towards what we chose which is a Dutch designed full keel with a retractable centreboard. Popular in The Netherlands as there isn't much depth in many of the inland waterways. On a 54' boat we only draw 1.4m with the board up, but 2.8 with it fully down.
I have an Allmand 31 a boat with a long shallow split keel with a partial skeg hung rudder. Basically we are talking a fat coastal cruiser. My hope is to do some blue water sailing, but I expect much of my travels will be along the east coast of North America and into the Caribbean while short (or single) handed. In other words a compromise boat that isn't as stable as a full keel boat, and not as manoeuvrable as a fin keel, but... I bought the boat in August in Boston, MA, and while bringing the boat through the Erie Canal to Lake Ontario I was pleased with the trade-offs that had been make on this boat.
depends 100% on your desired application. Cruising the world? go full keel encapsulated ballast, etc, preferably a boat from the 60s or early 70s for some of that 1.5-2 inch thick solid fiberglass goodness from the early days of composites where they didnt really know how to work with it yet so they just piled a TON in the molds to make sure it was strong. once a year vacations sailing with the family in the Bahamas? doesn't really matter because unless you wipe your ass with Benjamins, your not going to be buying a boat outright vs chartering anyway. going for performance/racing? Deep fin keel is the only way to go for good pointing in the wind and high (relative) speeds.
Very educational video, however, one design you did not mention is the design our Bristol 29 uses which is a modified full with a centerboard. O would've liked to have seen a little information about it.
I completely forgot to include them in the conversation. Basically, they give you the performance of a fun keel with the ability to squeeze into places no other sailboat could dream of going. Raising the keel part way also allows you to adjust the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) which is very useful when trying to balance the helm.
Ive got a fiberglass modified full keel. I like that my prop is safe and my rudder has a lower bearing. And when i run over a cray pot rope, she just slides off. Tracks well to a head wind under sail. Not a fast 42ft'er but she feels solid in the ocean
If ya have to keel haul your first mate for dereliction of duty[falling asleep during their watch] ,it is better to have a full keel. I see the wisdom behind your choice.
Unless your full keel is shaped with the idea of hydrodynamics in the racing days of wooden sloop so say a j class sloop is slow yeah right full keel and at the times the j class was new you could say the this was as comfortable and fast as a racing sailboat should be you should also think about weight of keel to hull construction which is supposed to be about 50/50 still bolted not fiberglass construction relying on bonds of glass I feel a hog a keelson and displacement ballast keel their is alot to say about old school racing sailboats either to much sail area
Great vid.You are very knowledgeable. One major issue is Slower or Faster. After sailing MANY MANY MILES I Personally prefer a well built fast design yacht. The book Fastnet Force 10 provides us with that information. Mr. Ted. Yachts man of the year, made it with out any major issues. After sailing for my last 44 years I saw that if you have a lighter displacement yacht. You will sail farther and sail more. A heavy displacement yacht will make you motor more and sail less. It is a fact. In So cal and Mexico we have lighter winds. The security of having many tons of ballast under your feet is a nice feeling when your 100 + miles offshore. But the sound of the ocean and nature can't be beat. doing 10 + knots in the middle of the Pacific. Thank you for your great video. This is just something from an old yachtsman. Keep up the good work....
The fastnet disaster ( I can’t remember the year ) showed just the opposite. There is a very good book, ‘seaworthiness the forgotten factor’, that discusses this with lots of documentation. But, to each his own.
Informative video, thank you. Although you incorporated most trade offs for keel design you didn't include draft. One of the full keel boats you showed (looked like a Morgen Out Island 40) had a very sallow draft, shallower than the much shorter racy one with the long blade keel. There is also swing keels great for shallow draft and deep draft for open ocean, popular in areas of high tidal ranges like the UK.
@Me Harkness, ya, nothing about lifting keels and ballasted centerboard boats like those on the Southerly / Dyscovery, Alubat, Garcia Exploration, some of the Oyster boats, etc.
We are going to be sailing to there in April! I really like Center Board boats. The keel can swing down to give you excellent performance when you have the water depth and swing up out of the way when you get into shallow parts. The center board box is also in the shape of a full keel, so if you ground, you have a nice big strong area to take the impact. I would prefer a CB over a wing keel just for the ability to get the keel out of the way when you get into the shallows.
One of things I thought worth considering is the motion of the boat through the seas. Fin keels in steep waves do not have that "sea kindly" motion, but tend to slap or pound, and pivot at the wave crests. Hobby horsing seems to be more of an issue. We own a Bristol Channel Cutter 28 with a very full keel starting at the stem post. She can carry a ton of sail or very little.
Your chances of out running storms mid ocean are limited. You may get to a less windy part of a storm but i reckon it would be of slim benefit. It is incredibly rare for bolt keels to fall off.
@@TheSirUno Even harder in a yacht that cruses at around 6 kn. Though with advanced and more reliable weather predictions you can place yourself better.
Everyone leaves them out I don't understand . They are by far the most practical option I would never consider anything else. I ain't paying slip fees and lift outs when mud docks are free.
Thanks, that was very informative and helpful. Before this I just watched a 45 min. interview with Chris Beaumont of Kraken Yachts about integral keels, so I'd go for any form of an integral keel, like a full keel or a long keel, definitely not a bolted-on keel. My type of sailing is "never in a hurry to get anywhere, ever".😉
Yes i watched that documentary too! He described how boats are hyped to be blue water when they're anything but. And corners cut not just on the design level but also on the factory floor. Friday afternoon, the guys constructing the fibre glass laminate for the hull, they just want to go home quickly so they rush it and don't take care to get the laminate at the right temperature so it bonds properly. Chris's attention to detail is extraordinary. Needless to say, inner of his Kraken 50's, brand new, costs an absolute fortune. One and a half mill, but what a vessel, built like a tank but goes like a rocket.
Let me start by saying that I have an Allied 36 with a full keel with cut away forefoot. In addition my keel has encapsulated ballast. That brings up my first comment. All full keels do not have ballast inside the fiberglass hull (encapsulated ballast). In fact many have external ballast bolted on to the botton of the keel or bolted on in front of a deadwood. An example of the former is a Tahiti ketch and the latter is used in the Hinckley Bermuda 40. For a boat with encapsulated ballast the keel is not attached to the hull since it is part of the hull. My Allied is a good example of that. The hull canoe body and the keel are a single piece of fiberglass that the ballast is put into. The ballast is then glassed over inside the hull to keep it in place and eliminate leaks should the keel be holed by a grounding. This sort of construction cannot have the keel come off since it is not separate from the hull. Beyond differences in grounding damage between full keel and fin keel boats, the biggest difference is in handling. That difference is NOT simply due to the keel type although that plays a big part. As a generalization, boats with a fin type keel have a very different hull form than a full keel boat. In the fin keel case the canoe body of the hull tends to have minimum draft and may be quite flat bottomed. That sort of boat is also generally built to be light to enhance performance. In contrast a significant percentage of full keel boats had more traditional wine glass shaped underbodies. Relative to a fin keel boat the same length the full keel design will tend to be quite heavy. As far a boat speed goes, both fin and full keel boats can achieve similar speeds (unless the fin keeler has sufficiently light displacement and a flat enough bottom to allow planing). It just takes more wind to push the full keel boat to a given speed than a fin keeler because power required for a given speed is proportional to displacement. What about handling. In general boats with a split underbody (separate keel and rudder) with have faster response to steering. Another factor is that it is actually quite easy to back a fin keel boat with a spade rudder in a controlled fashion. In contrast, a full keel boat tends to go where it wants to in reverse until you get quite a lot of speed up. The fin keel boat, because of its faster steering response will turn more quickly and is very easy to tack quickly in contrast to a full keel boat where tacking my require back winding the jib or in extreme cases furling the jib. Also a full keeled boat will come through the wind much more slowly than a fin keeled boat. What about sailing in larger seas. In this scenario the full keel boat will tend to track more steadily. That is a factor of both the large lateral plane area of the keel and the higher displacement of the boat relative to a fin keel boat. A fin keel boat with a shallow flat bottomed canoe body will be sitting mostly on top of the waves and will tend to get bashed around a lot and will take a lot of active steering to maintain a course. That is particularly true in following seas where a fin keel boat can easily pivot on the short chord keel and end up in a broach. While that can happen with a full keel boat, the large lateral surface area of the keel works against a following sea turning the boat. However, the relative shoal draft of most full keel boats works against the tracking. Finally the hull form plays a big role. Most fin keel boats have shallow relatively flat bottomed canoe bodies that can slam in steep seas as the boat's pitching completely lifts the forward end of the boat out of the water. When the flat bottomed canoe body drops back into the water it slams. In contrast the wine glass form of many full keel boats keeps more of the boat in the water when pitching and the hull form cuts through the water when the bow drops after a pitch rather than slamming down onto the water. Just my thoughts based on my limited sailing experience.
@Todd Dunne. Excellent response which contains significant "real world experience". Thank you for taking the time to contribute this knowledge. Post should really be "pinned" as it's very relevant to the video content.
@@johnmoore3859 thank you for the kind words. Those were just my thoughts based on my limited experience from 52 years of sailing and having worked as a naval architect back in the 70s. There is considerably more to it than I put into my post.
one thing i miss on this explenation. it is how they behave. my previus boat had a long keel it was easer to trim and go in a strait line. than my current boat that has a fin keel and rudder on skeg. it is faster but turns more easely.
That has to do with the weather helm. You may be able to adjust the steering and the boat's tendency to want to point into the wind by adjusting the position of your sails or adding a bowsprit to your boat. Look up "weather helm adjustments".
I prefer the one I have on our Southerly, a grounding plate hung swing keel. Pros are high aspect ratio, variable ballast position (great for running), variable draft (good for deep water and shallow water sailing as well as beaching). Cons are complexity (more things to go wrong such as hinge pin and lift cable lifting mechanism), and interior cabin arrangement limitations, The main advantage to us is in canal boating.
Rigging Doctor Hi, ours is a 2001 S135B. It was La Jonquille, SV Aurora Leigh. You can google La Jonquille. I was designing a 39’ Bristol Channel Cutter before I first saw the Southerly keel solution (grounding plate hung swing keel) which I fell in love with straight away. So I cut the keel off the design I was doing and the swing keel fitted in perfectly. About then we decided to buy a boat rather than spend years building a boat that I might never finish. Another combination is the shoal draft long keel with a drop centre board (4’6 to 6’6 draft) which is what my first self built Samsom C’Quoia (Canadian design) boat was. As you say no boat is perfect. A boat design layout that I really like is the Triton Warrior 38 which could be done with a swing keel and the engine aft under the cockpit floor shaft forward into a transition box onto which you mount an electric motor for a full hybrid drive. The amidships pullman berth holds a lot of appeal, I think. I love what you are doing to your head. Very bold, and making it your own style. Its all part of the lifestyle and adventure. I fully support your all electric renewable energy principle. Our boat is fairly diesel centric but I have to find a way towards non fossil fuel systems. I don’t have a problem with using ethanol on the boat and perhaps the solution for our boat is to convert the engine to ED95, the cooking to a pressure ethanol stove, and a bigger battery bank with a 10 kw motor belt driving to the prop shaft. Getting Solar panels and a wind generator aboard are the first priorities though.
Yes, beam, length, displacement, sail area, and then all the ratios that come from these measurements. But this was a video about keel design, not comfort ratings or capsize ratios. We will go into those details when we make our video about what makes a good overall boat.
A couple weeks ago, I sailed from St. Maarten back to Ft. Pierce on a friends 1968 Person 44 Countess. It has the same hull as yours. It rode like a Cadillac, even in rough seas. No pounding, healing was minimal. Speed was awesome. The auto pilot was acting up (broke) and had a hard time steering above 6 kts. We had to keep reefing to slow her down. I was impressed with the performance. I'm into comfort not speed anyway. I'm sure in a tight marina it would be a handful to maneuver. Wisdom's hull would be awesome for me, however we plan on doing the ICW to the Outer banks so I guess our Modified on our Pearson 365 will have to do.
In the ICW you will be VERY happy with the shallower draft (and your diesel) ;) I have actually disconnected our electronic autopilot because the Monitor windsteering works so well. The ram arm of the autopilot was a constant drag on the steering and without it the helm is really light to the touch (as long as the sails are balanced)
In light winds, a full keel will drift while a fin keel will sail. In moderate winds, a full keel will sail slowly and a fin keel will sail quickly. In heavy winds, a full keel will sail quickly and the fin keel will be thrashed around. This is just based on my experience in a full keel and watching fin keel boats around me. We come into speed in winds above 20 knots while they are heading for safe harbor. I’ve been on a few fin keel boats and they will sail in nothing but when the wind picks up, the boat really thrashes around in an uncomfortable manner. If you are going to do coastal and fair weather, a fin keel will be the best boat for you. If you plan on serious cruising where you will get caught in bad weather, a full keel will be your safest boat.
@RiggingDoctor Thabks for that explanation! It definitely sounds like full keels are safer if you are offshore /ocean crossing but would you say that fin keel boats can do that same voyage, or is it risky?
Yes indeed. He has an Alberg 30 like the one we are rebuilding but for some reason he is dead set against sailing with an electric motor. He seems to love his diesel more than the wind in his sails. He sure does go the distance though!
Excellent, very good explanation. Perhaps an upcoming vid on props/saildrives/shafts/etc. Those infront of the engine transmissions I'v always thought odd. Oh Maddie what have you done, could it have anything to do with Ladders? Cheers.
Guy's that's amazing info. Although i have a 28ft Bay cruiser, I purchased new in 1992. But I love sailboats. They're just so beautiful. I always see in a documentary, how they show the center keel snap off. And the boat in a split 2nd falls to it's side. No warning at all. 🙏 ⛵ ⛵
Useful information. Thank you. I am well trained engineer and physicist/scientist. I appreciate your low key approach. A few numbers would be helpful. But overall a great introduction to a very complex topic. I use sophisticated simulation programs to give realistic estimates of real world performance. That is what the good designers should do. A map of the performance safe sailing world would be useful. Have one handy?
I sail a full keeled boat with the rudder hung off the keel. Any orca attempting to break it off, is going to end-up with a real headache. For backing-up in a crowed marina, it gives me a headache. In fact, judging which way the stern is going to go, is a total crap-shoot (and I'm the crappy skipper they'd like to shoot.)
What is your opinion of a modified keel or centerboard? I have a '72 Pearson 33 with a 4 ft draft and a centerboard. My keel isn't as long as a full keel but it's longer than a fin keel just shorter. The centerboard gives a draft over 7 .5 ft.
Center boards are the best of both worlds. Shallow draft and excellent pointing performance! Best of all, just as you can trim your sails to move the CE, you can also trim the board to move your CLR and balance the boat out better.
The front edge doesn't do everything lol. you can't just have a pencil say with a weight at the bottom for a keel, even if it was structurally possible, yes that would give a righting moment but the water pressure to enable sailing to windward comes from the surface area, at the cost of drag. It's a compromise.
Actually the pencil edge is all we need, but we don’t have the materials to make a pencil keel. All it needs is a aerofoil shape that is as high aspect ratio as possible to give the most lift with the least drag.
Not a single word on bilge keels and their variants - which I have. Like they never even existed. Or indeed daggerboard keels. You might consider all these common keel types too much to include in just a 13 min video - but some allusion could be made for the completely. uninitiated So - not a very in depth look (perhaps apt if you miss out the bilge keel)
Why does every single UA-cam channel leave out bilge keels. The advantages far far out way any into wind performance loss . Which has pretty much been overcome anyway . Moodies , Westerlies, saddlers all mostly bilge keel . Hunter legend 36 very fast . Sirius D's 40 my favourite boat ever . All mostly bilge keel. There's a French one made of ply wood. Can't remember what it's called again very fast . Kingfisher 30 not fast but built like it's going to war . Lots of colvics . Love the countess they did a ds ketch I really want that one if I can find it . Then there's all the baby ones like Snapdragons etc . I just don't get why they are left out. Until I was about 25 I didn't even know any other keel types exsisted. When I found out I was like that's stupid it will fall over when the tide goes out . Not realising the entire world dousnt have tides like Britain lol . I wouldn't ever considered anything else . Slip fees? No thanks I shall live in the estuary for free .
I was looking at a boat that looked great except it was listing about 1-2 deg. On his chart plotted he quickly exited his last trip which looked like it went into the shallows in a river here. I figured there was something wrong with the keel but never found out since he was resistant to giving me the USCG number. Big red flags of course but would that have been a likely cause for the list. Bilges were dry. The boat was well equipped and at a good price. Still sitting there too. It was a while ago but I'm almost certain it was a Contessa.
To make a statement "a keel to outrun a storm" is nonsense. No boat can outrun a storm when you are in bluewater at sea. Maybe, possibly if you are just off shore, but that will depend on wind conditions. Crazy to rely on the wind you need when you need to outrun a storm.
I'm looking at a Contessa 26 and my friends told me that I won't be happy because it'll be so slow. What do you think? If you have two identical boats, one with a full keel and one with a race keel. Say for simplicity sake, the full keel boat top speed is 6 knots. What would the high aspect ratio keel boat top speed be? Obviously this would just be a guess..but what's your guess? Thank you:)
The top speeds will be the same because of the hull speed limit. Basically, the longer the boats waterline, the faster it can sail without planning. If both boys have the same waterline length, no top speed difference! The equation is: hull speed = (water line length in feet)^0.5 x 1.34 The big difference comes in light winds. A heavy full keel will need more wind to get going while a light boat will zip along. I went out on a race boat one time, it was only 20 feet long and we did 18 knots! Obviously it gets up on plane and exceeds hull speed, and it did this in light conditions. It was very fun but I would be terrified of that thing if a squall came up while out sailing. A heavy boat usually needs about 15-20 knots of wind to start sailing nicely. In my experience, when we are out sailing in light air days (10 knots of wind or less), everyone is motoring. The light boats and the heavy boats are all going hull speed under diesel power, so no one actually takes advantage of their ability to sail in light wind. My favorite was when we passed a guy who was motoring and we were on a beam reach. He had a very light Hunter and was going the same direction, he could have been sailing but was motoring through the light breeze. My opinion: Contessa makes a really nice solid boat that you can have fun playing around in and if you ever decide you want to go further (or if you get hit by a storm) you are already in a very capable boat.
Full keels and long keels are the only way to go for coastal and offshore (non competition) work! One less thing to worry about for the skipper!!! A more comfortable ride and you can hove to in a storm!!
A separate discussion of multihulls would be useful, where righting moment does not come from ballast. In other words, part of the discussion about keels only applies to monohulls.
Depends on purpose for me.. you want a racing yacht then the deep bulb on end of thin keel is a reasonable choice. You want safe keel less likely to break off, protects rudder from impact and can handle a few bumps without ruining your day a nice full length keel would do me nicely.
It's not just the leading edge that provides lateral resistance to bring the boat to windward, it is proportional to the surface area, at the expense of drag.
Yes, but the leading edge does the most so the rest of the keel is just drag. This is why foiling boats have such high aspect ratio foils: maximum efficiency with minimal drag. That said, these also need speed to work while a low aspect ratio foil will provide lots of lateral resistance at very slow speeds. This is why a full keel heaves to and drifts slower than a fin keel.
Most fin keels are bolted on but some are part of the hull. You also have fin keels that are part of the hull with ballast bolted onto the bottom of the fin! It can get very complicated very quickly 🤪
There is no such thing as best, only different. Understand your intended term of usage first, only then can you select the most appropriate keel for you.
I to like the long and full keel design however there is little information of what is a reasonable draft depth for blue water cruising, what are your thoughts
Personally, the deeper the better when you are offshore. The water is thousands of feet deep, so bumping the bottom is not a concern. The further down the ballast is, the more effective it is at resisting the heeling forces from the wind on the sails. The issue is when you want to come into port, draft instantly becomes a concern and the deciding factor. On the US, west coast boats will typically have drafts of 8 to 10 feet because all of their waters are deeper, while on the east coast 4.5 foot drafts are the favored because it’s much shallower on that side. Wisdom has a 6.5’ draft and is considered a “deep draft” boat on the east coast. There are places that we just don’t fit (the Florida Keys) because of our keel. The question really comes down to where you want to sail, and then choosing a seaworthy boat that will let you sail into your destination.
Thanks for an interesting and informative video 👍 I was hoping you would bump into an Albin Vega on your tour, which I have, since it’s something in between all of the other boats. Maybe a semi-long, shallow keel!? But I guess it would be something like the weather helm will be good, and the rudder is well protected!? Please don’t mention the position of the prop 😅😂
In 50 + years sailing iv hit 1 whale 1 orca 1 container a dozen or so logs Oh and several sand banks , touch wood never sunk (close on the orca one) all in different keal configurations but i must admit id feel safer 'relaxed' in a medium keal in a steel yacht with a good skeg on the rudder - fair winds (54ft. Round bilge .steel Vandestadt was the best)
I’ve got a Pearson 30, which has a integral keel, glassed in. No keel bolts. Still a fin keel, but with some of the strength benefits of a full keel. Spade rudder, though, unfortunately.
It would be most advantageous! Many times we search for an anchorage with “channel like depths” outside of the channel when a lifting keel would give us the ability to motor into the shallowest of places and sleep soundly far from the channel.
I have long keeled boat an Allegro 33, a swedish design. It has a very stable design. Similar boat has been sailed around Cap Horn and back. It flipped around without being demasted and the young couple went on to sail....
The boat i just bought is a SD, apparently, I thought it was a fin keel, after bumping the bottom a few times, I'm glad it is and the performance isn't really different from the fin keel model, some people say they won't point as high but I disagree.
Really good explanation, liked the acknowledgement that things are gonna break & can you fix it (can YOU fix it!). There are few long keel boats made any more but thankfully a lot of the older fibreglass hulls have survived well and are now relatively cheap. They were mainly designed with long keels for no other reason than that's how wooden ones were built and the shape also lent itself to moulding. The wooden ones were built that way because that's what you could do with wood. Early fibreglass hulls were also overbuilt because nobody knew how good or not fibreglass would turn out to be. All of which happily means that we mere mortals can find a boat for not too much money that is capable of taking us anywhere we want to go. Happy days!
That’s exactly how it went with our boat “Wisdom”. Built in 1968 and way thicker than she would ever need to be. That durability is why we are still sailing today! Also, I bought her for a song and then spent a few years rebuilding her to make her ready for passage making, but I was starting with good bones.
The old shape i.e a pilot cutter have a look at Elley Grey ideal for ocean crossing , also because no cut away forefoot it also motors much better , a fin keel does not motor well in any see state , Elley Grey 65ft OD 19 ft Beam 9knots crusing under power 10/12 knots under sail old shape but still fast and less lightly to catch lines .
She is gorgeous! In the Chesapeake, we would sometimes sail over a crab pot (that was in the middle of the channel with a dark float on it) that we didn’t see until we were on it. The keel would push it away from the prop and off at the stern; never fouling the prop!
While not an airplane, the concepts are the same and the keel is referred to as an airfoil. On a boat, the term hydrofoil is reserved for appendages that will raise the yacht out of the water. On “foiling” sailing yachts, the keel is “airfoil” while the foils that lift it out of the water are the “hydrofoils”.
The full keel on the pilot house cruiser looked to be a good choice for ocean passage. That pilot house would sure make night watches more comfortable. Any idea of make and model of that boat. If you were stepping up I think it would be a good choice for you and Maddie. Nice conversation on keel types and their differences.
Wing keels give more leading edge length which in turn gives you the performance of a longer keel without the added depth. The downside to a wing keel is if you get stuck in mud, apparently they can be harder to get unstuck (the wing gets buried in the soft mud like an anchor fluke). I would go out for a sail and see how you like the motion of the boat in light winds and also in heavy weather. If it sails the way you like, then it would make a good boat for you :)
You have the most informative sailing videos I have found in regards to repairs, tweets and what to expect and how to deal with the day-to -day surprises. Thank you.
@@RiggingDoctor reef early and get real. My Skookum is not going to outrun anything but it really does not need to. There is no boat I would rather be in except maybe a kraken 50, if i had an extra 1.5 million to spend.
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Which keel design do you prefer and what type of sailing do you do?
My preference has always been long keel, solely because keel bolts make me nervous. They are not very easy to inspect properly. That being said... my dad's boat, on which I learned to sail, had bolts and despite the boat being over 20 years old at the time they were in excellent condition.
I was always fond of twin/bilge keels that were strong enough to be beached. I keep thinking about Wicked Salty and some of the others that have had to do an emergency haul. Would have been nifty to have the option of beaching the boat to do an emergency repair.
When I was young, we went to Wales for vacation and all the sailboats had twin bilge keels. At low tide, the harbor was completely dry and the sailboats were all standing upright just waiting for the tide to come back in again!
Very interesting video - thanks.
You didn't mention lifting keels or centreboards. I'm naturally biased towards what we chose which is a Dutch designed full keel with a retractable centreboard. Popular in The Netherlands as there isn't much depth in many of the inland waterways. On a 54' boat we only draw 1.4m with the board up, but 2.8 with it fully down.
I have an Allmand 31 a boat with a long shallow split keel with a partial skeg hung rudder. Basically we are talking a fat coastal cruiser. My hope is to do some blue water sailing, but I expect much of my travels will be along the east coast of North America and into the Caribbean while short (or single) handed. In other words a compromise boat that isn't as stable as a full keel boat, and not as manoeuvrable as a fin keel, but... I bought the boat in August in Boston, MA, and while bringing the boat through the Erie Canal to Lake Ontario I was pleased with the trade-offs that had been make on this boat.
Yes, but you forgot to mention how the gentler, more seakindly motion of full keel boats lowers the probability of sprained ankles ...
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depends 100% on your desired application. Cruising the world? go full keel encapsulated ballast, etc, preferably a boat from the 60s or early 70s for some of that 1.5-2 inch thick solid fiberglass goodness from the early days of composites where they didnt really know how to work with it yet so they just piled a TON in the molds to make sure it was strong.
once a year vacations sailing with the family in the Bahamas? doesn't really matter because unless you wipe your ass with Benjamins, your not going to be buying a boat outright vs chartering anyway.
going for performance/racing? Deep fin keel is the only way to go for good pointing in the wind and high (relative) speeds.
Agreed 100%
The right boat depends on what you are going to do with it
Very educational video, however, one design you did not mention is the design our Bristol 29 uses which is a modified full with a centerboard. O would've liked to have seen a little information about it.
Great video, feel better
What about folding keel?
I completely forgot to include them in the conversation.
Basically, they give you the performance of a fun keel with the ability to squeeze into places no other sailboat could dream of going.
Raising the keel part way also allows you to adjust the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR) which is very useful when trying to balance the helm.
Thank you, delightful video that gives me pleasure
The best keel IMO, you didn't even touch on, the swing keel
Swing keels are a fin keel that swings, they are awesome! All the performance and shallow water anchoring.
Maddie slipped on a banana keel.
Ive got a fiberglass modified full keel. I like that my prop is safe and my rudder has a lower bearing. And when i run over a cray pot rope, she just slides off. Tracks well to a head wind under sail. Not a fast 42ft'er but she feels solid in the ocean
If ya have to keel haul your first mate for dereliction of duty[falling asleep during their watch] ,it is better to have a full keel. I see the wisdom behind your choice.
These videos are pure gold for people like me looking to buy my first boat! TYVM!!
Glad to help!
Unless your full keel is shaped with the idea of hydrodynamics in the racing days of wooden sloop so say a j class sloop is slow yeah right full keel and at the times the j class was new you could say the this was as comfortable and fast as a racing sailboat should be you should also think about weight of keel to hull construction which is supposed to be about 50/50 still bolted not fiberglass construction relying on bonds of glass I feel a hog a keelson and displacement ballast keel their is alot to say about old school racing sailboats either to much sail area
Great vid.You are very knowledgeable. One major issue is Slower or Faster. After sailing MANY MANY MILES I Personally prefer a well built fast design yacht. The book Fastnet Force 10 provides us with that information. Mr. Ted. Yachts man of the year, made it with out any major issues. After sailing for my last 44 years I saw that if you have a lighter displacement yacht. You will sail farther and sail more. A heavy displacement yacht will make you motor more and sail less. It is a fact. In So cal and Mexico we have lighter winds. The security of having many tons of ballast under your feet is a nice feeling when your 100 + miles offshore. But the sound of the ocean and nature can't be beat. doing 10 + knots in the middle of the Pacific. Thank you for your great video. This is just something from an old yachtsman. Keep up the good work....
Passing trawlers without making a sound.
The fastnet disaster ( I can’t remember the year ) showed just the opposite. There is a very good book, ‘seaworthiness the forgotten factor’, that discusses this with lots of documentation. But, to each his own.
Uh, it is VERY difficult to choose a Keil for your sailboat it is not usually an replaceable item.
Bad Keel bolts can give you that sinking feeling.
🤣
Unless you have a waterline approaching 80 ft, and exceptional strategic sailing abilities, no fin keel on a small boat will "outrun a storm". My ho.
Very true!
Informative video, thank you. Although you incorporated most trade offs for keel design you didn't include draft. One of the full keel boats you showed (looked like a Morgen Out Island 40) had a very sallow draft, shallower than the much shorter racy one with the long blade keel. There is also swing keels great for shallow draft and deep draft for open ocean, popular in areas of high tidal ranges like the UK.
Good point!
you forgot drop keel, was hoping to learn more :(
@Me Harkness, ya, nothing about lifting keels and ballasted centerboard boats like those on the Southerly / Dyscovery, Alubat, Garcia Exploration, some of the Oyster boats, etc.
Lol
I live in Miami Florida I sail in Biscayne Bay which is not a very deep Bay which type Keel do you recommend
We are going to be sailing to there in April!
I really like Center Board boats. The keel can swing down to give you excellent performance when you have the water depth and swing up out of the way when you get into shallow parts. The center board box is also in the shape of a full keel, so if you ground, you have a nice big strong area to take the impact.
I would prefer a CB over a wing keel just for the ability to get the keel out of the way when you get into the shallows.
guys! love you channel!! just found it!!
Welcome!
One of things I thought worth considering is the motion of the boat through the seas. Fin keels in steep waves do not have that "sea kindly" motion, but tend to slap or pound, and pivot at the wave crests. Hobby horsing seems to be more of an issue. We own a Bristol Channel Cutter 28 with a very full keel starting at the stem post. She can carry a ton of sail or very little.
as a beginner I'm now considering a fairing to front the fin keel. can't wait to see her out the water. thanks
Man, what a great informational video. What makes is great is actual examples in a boat yard and explanations.
Full keel is the best,forget abaut the rest
Yeessss
I have a long, shallow keel. Very shallow - 36' waterline length, but only 20" draft. Plus leeboards.
Simply,...Thanks very helpful! Sail on!
Your chances of out running storms mid ocean are limited. You may get to a less windy part of a storm but i reckon it would be of slim benefit. It is incredibly rare for bolt keels to fall off.
I was in the Navy for over 20 years, and never once were we able to outrun a storm - it's just not a thing. Mama Nature will always win. ;)
@@TheSirUno Even harder in a yacht that cruses at around 6 kn. Though with advanced and more reliable weather predictions you can place yourself better.
Fall off is rare, but cracking/getting loose at the bolts and start leaking, not so. My old boat did after fairly mild grounding in the sand.
Can you talk about tween keels? the difference in stability and the ability to sail against the wind
Everyone leaves them out I don't understand . They are by far the most practical option I would never consider anything else.
I ain't paying slip fees and lift outs when mud docks are free.
Hope you are back on your feet real soon!
Thanks, that was very informative and helpful. Before this I just watched a 45 min. interview with Chris Beaumont of Kraken Yachts about integral keels, so I'd go for any form of an integral keel, like a full keel or a long keel, definitely not a bolted-on keel. My type of sailing is "never in a hurry to get anywhere, ever".😉
It’s definitely the safer way to go!
Yes i watched that documentary too! He described how boats are hyped to be blue water when they're anything but. And corners cut not just on the design level but also on the factory floor. Friday afternoon, the guys constructing the fibre glass laminate for the hull, they just want to go home quickly so they rush it and don't take care to get the laminate at the right temperature so it bonds properly. Chris's attention to detail is extraordinary. Needless to say, inner of his Kraken 50's, brand new, costs an absolute fortune. One and a half mill, but what a vessel, built like a tank but goes like a rocket.
Let me start by saying that I have an Allied 36 with a full keel with cut away forefoot. In addition my keel has encapsulated ballast. That brings up my first comment.
All full keels do not have ballast inside the fiberglass hull (encapsulated ballast). In fact many have external ballast bolted on to the botton of the keel or bolted on in front of a deadwood. An example of the former is a Tahiti ketch and the latter is used in the Hinckley Bermuda 40. For a boat with encapsulated ballast the keel is not attached to the hull since it is part of the hull. My Allied is a good example of that. The hull canoe body and the keel are a single piece of fiberglass that the ballast is put into. The ballast is then glassed over inside the hull to keep it in place and eliminate leaks should the keel be holed by a grounding. This sort of construction cannot have the keel come off since it is not separate from the hull.
Beyond differences in grounding damage between full keel and fin keel boats, the biggest difference is in handling. That difference is NOT simply due to the keel type although that plays a big part. As a generalization, boats with a fin type keel have a very different hull form than a full keel boat. In the fin keel case the canoe body of the hull tends to have minimum draft and may be quite flat bottomed. That sort of boat is also generally built to be light to enhance performance. In contrast a significant percentage of full keel boats had more traditional wine glass shaped underbodies. Relative to a fin keel boat the same length the full keel design will tend to be quite heavy.
As far a boat speed goes, both fin and full keel boats can achieve similar speeds (unless the fin keeler has sufficiently light displacement and a flat enough bottom to allow planing). It just takes more wind to push the full keel boat to a given speed than a fin keeler because power required for a given speed is proportional to displacement.
What about handling. In general boats with a split underbody (separate keel and rudder) with have faster response to steering. Another factor is that it is actually quite easy to back a fin keel boat with a spade rudder in a controlled fashion. In contrast, a full keel boat tends to go where it wants to in reverse until you get quite a lot of speed up. The fin keel boat, because of its faster steering response will turn more quickly and is very easy to tack quickly in contrast to a full keel boat where tacking my require back winding the jib or in extreme cases furling the jib. Also a full keeled boat will come through the wind much more slowly than a fin keeled boat. What about sailing in larger seas. In this scenario the full keel boat will tend to track more steadily. That is a factor of both the large lateral plane area of the keel and the higher displacement of the boat relative to a fin keel boat. A fin keel boat with a shallow flat bottomed canoe body will be sitting mostly on top of the waves and will tend to get bashed around a lot and will take a lot of active steering to maintain a course. That is particularly true in following seas where a fin keel boat can easily pivot on the short chord keel and end up in a broach. While that can happen with a full keel boat, the large lateral surface area of the keel works against a following sea turning the boat. However, the relative shoal draft of most full keel boats works against the tracking. Finally the hull form plays a big role. Most fin keel boats have shallow relatively flat bottomed canoe bodies that can slam in steep seas as the boat's pitching completely lifts the forward end of the boat out of the water. When the flat bottomed canoe body drops back into the water it slams. In contrast the wine glass form of many full keel boats keeps more of the boat in the water when pitching and the hull form cuts through the water when the bow drops after a pitch rather than slamming down onto the water.
Just my thoughts based on my limited sailing experience.
That was very well explained, thank you!
@Todd Dunne. Excellent response which contains significant "real world experience". Thank you for taking the time to contribute this knowledge. Post should really be "pinned" as it's very relevant to the video content.
@@johnmoore3859 thank you for the kind words. Those were just my thoughts based on my limited experience from 52 years of sailing and having worked as a naval architect back in the 70s. There is considerably more to it than I put into my post.
how do you calculate the weight in kg of the keel if the mast lenth is 1,3 the lenth if the boat..
On keel stem to stern should be available but is never available. This situation should not just be tolerated.
A good introduction - next week swing keels and bilge keelers 😉
And catamarans And trimarans!
one thing i miss on this explenation. it is how they behave. my previus boat had a long keel it was easer to trim and go in a strait line. than my current boat that has a fin keel and rudder on skeg. it is faster but turns more easely.
That has to do with the weather helm. You may be able to adjust the steering and the boat's tendency to want to point into the wind by adjusting the position of your sails or adding a bowsprit to your boat. Look up "weather helm adjustments".
I prefer the one I have on our Southerly, a grounding plate hung swing keel. Pros are high aspect ratio, variable ballast position (great for running), variable draft (good for deep water and shallow water sailing as well as beaching). Cons are complexity (more things to go wrong such as hinge pin and lift cable lifting mechanism), and interior cabin arrangement limitations, The main advantage to us is in canal boating.
Which model Southerly do you have? They are gorgeous “go anywhere” boats!
Rigging Doctor Hi, ours is a 2001 S135B. It was La Jonquille, SV Aurora Leigh. You can google La Jonquille. I was designing a 39’ Bristol Channel Cutter before I first saw the Southerly keel solution (grounding plate hung swing keel) which I fell in love with straight away. So I cut the keel off the design I was doing and the swing keel fitted in perfectly. About then we decided to buy a boat rather than spend years building a boat that I might never finish. Another combination is the shoal draft long keel with a drop centre board (4’6 to 6’6 draft) which is what my first self built Samsom C’Quoia (Canadian design) boat was. As you say no boat is perfect. A boat design layout that I really like is the Triton Warrior 38 which could be done with a swing keel and the engine aft under the cockpit floor shaft forward into a transition box onto which you mount an electric motor for a full hybrid drive. The amidships pullman berth holds a lot of appeal, I think.
I love what you are doing to your head. Very bold, and making it your own style. Its all part of the lifestyle and adventure. I fully support your all electric renewable energy principle. Our boat is fairly diesel centric but I have to find a way towards non fossil fuel systems. I don’t have a problem with using ethanol on the boat and perhaps the solution for our boat is to convert the engine to ED95, the cooking to a pressure ethanol stove, and a bigger battery bank with a 10 kw motor belt driving to the prop shaft. Getting Solar panels and a wind generator aboard are the first priorities though.
This is a very narrow view. Many other things go into stability of a boat.
Yes, beam, length, displacement, sail area, and then all the ratios that come from these measurements. But this was a video about keel design, not comfort ratings or capsize ratios.
We will go into those details when we make our video about what makes a good overall boat.
I like a shoal keel with a centerboard. These were not discussed.
Safety first always... Comfort speed come 3rd/4th at best.
😂
A couple weeks ago, I sailed from St. Maarten back to Ft. Pierce on a friends 1968 Person 44 Countess. It has the same hull as yours. It rode like a Cadillac, even in rough seas. No pounding, healing was minimal. Speed was awesome. The auto pilot was acting up (broke) and had a hard time steering above 6 kts. We had to keep reefing to slow her down. I was impressed with the performance. I'm into comfort not speed anyway. I'm sure in a tight marina it would be a handful to maneuver. Wisdom's hull would be awesome for me, however we plan on doing the ICW to the Outer banks so I guess our Modified on our Pearson 365 will have to do.
In the ICW you will be VERY happy with the shallower draft (and your diesel) ;)
I have actually disconnected our electronic autopilot because the Monitor windsteering works so well. The ram arm of the autopilot was a constant drag on the steering and without it the helm is really light to the touch (as long as the sails are balanced)
Just curious, how much slower is a full keel boat over a fin keel? Is it like half the speed?
In light winds, a full keel will drift while a fin keel will sail.
In moderate winds, a full keel will sail slowly and a fin keel will sail quickly.
In heavy winds, a full keel will sail quickly and the fin keel will be thrashed around.
This is just based on my experience in a full keel and watching fin keel boats around me. We come into speed in winds above 20 knots while they are heading for safe harbor.
I’ve been on a few fin keel boats and they will sail in nothing but when the wind picks up, the boat really thrashes around in an uncomfortable manner.
If you are going to do coastal and fair weather, a fin keel will be the best boat for you. If you plan on serious cruising where you will get caught in bad weather, a full keel will be your safest boat.
@RiggingDoctor Thabks for that explanation! It definitely sounds like full keels are safer if you are offshore /ocean crossing but would you say that fin keel boats can do that same voyage, or is it risky?
7.50 There's a guy going all around the world in this very boat. Sailing Tritea.
Yes indeed. He has an Alberg 30 like the one we are rebuilding but for some reason he is dead set against sailing with an electric motor. He seems to love his diesel more than the wind in his sails.
He sure does go the distance though!
Excellent, very good explanation. Perhaps an upcoming vid on props/saildrives/shafts/etc. Those infront of the engine transmissions I'v always thought odd. Oh Maddie what have you done, could it have anything to do with Ladders? Cheers.
Good topic!
Maddie slipped in a museum. Being a tourist is dangerous :P
What about a keel shapped something like an H
Guy's that's amazing info. Although i have a 28ft Bay cruiser, I purchased new in 1992. But I love sailboats. They're just so beautiful. I always see in a documentary, how they show the center keel snap off. And the boat in a split 2nd falls to it's side. No warning at all. 🙏 ⛵ ⛵
It’s important to make sure that it’s all strong to avoid a quick catastrophe!
Useful information. Thank you. I am well trained engineer and physicist/scientist. I appreciate your low key approach. A few numbers would be helpful. But overall a great introduction to a very complex topic. I use sophisticated simulation programs to give realistic estimates of real world performance. That is what the good designers should do. A map of the performance safe sailing world would be useful. Have one handy?
I do not but I would love one. If you have one and would like to share, my email is riggingdr@gmail.com
I sail a full keeled boat with the rudder hung off the keel. Any orca attempting to break it off, is going to end-up with a real headache. For backing-up in a crowed marina, it gives me a headache. In fact, judging which way the stern is going to go, is a total crap-shoot (and I'm the crappy skipper they'd like to shoot.)
Haha very poetic. We can relate to this though
This is my third time watching this, thanks for the information again and again and again. LoL. Enjoy the Med
KRAKEN yachts..none better...
We should not settle for what is a available.
What is your opinion of a modified keel or centerboard? I have a '72 Pearson 33 with a 4 ft draft and a centerboard. My keel isn't as long as a full keel but it's longer than a fin keel just shorter. The centerboard gives a draft over 7 .5 ft.
Center boards are the best of both worlds. Shallow draft and excellent pointing performance! Best of all, just as you can trim your sails to move the CE, you can also trim the board to move your CLR and balance the boat out better.
The front edge doesn't do everything lol. you can't just have a pencil say with a weight at the bottom for a keel, even if it was structurally possible, yes that would give a righting moment but the water pressure to enable sailing to windward comes from the surface area, at the cost of drag. It's a compromise.
Actually the pencil edge is all we need, but we don’t have the materials to make a pencil keel. All it needs is a aerofoil shape that is as high aspect ratio as possible to give the most lift with the least drag.
Not a single word on bilge keels and their variants - which I have. Like they never even existed.
Or indeed daggerboard keels. You might consider all these common keel types too much to include in just a 13 min video - but some allusion could be made for the completely. uninitiated
So - not a very in depth look (perhaps apt if you miss out the bilge keel)
There weren’t any bilge keels here!
The focus was looking at the common keels: fin vs full and the variants in between.
Why does every single UA-cam channel leave out bilge keels. The advantages far far out way any into wind performance loss .
Which has pretty much been overcome anyway . Moodies , Westerlies, saddlers all mostly bilge keel . Hunter legend 36 very fast . Sirius D's 40 my favourite boat ever . All mostly bilge keel. There's a French one made of ply wood. Can't remember what it's called again very fast . Kingfisher 30 not fast but built like it's going to war . Lots of colvics . Love the countess they did a ds ketch I really want that one if I can find it .
Then there's all the baby ones like Snapdragons etc .
I just don't get why they are left out. Until I was about 25 I didn't even know any other keel types exsisted. When I found out I was like that's stupid it will fall over when the tide goes out . Not realising the entire world dousnt have tides like Britain lol .
I wouldn't ever considered anything else . Slip fees? No thanks I shall live in the estuary for free .
We did an entire episode on bilge keels
I was looking at a boat that looked great except it was listing about 1-2 deg. On his chart plotted he quickly exited his last trip which looked like it went into the shallows in a river here. I figured there was something wrong with the keel but never found out since he was resistant to giving me the USCG number. Big red flags of course but would that have been a likely cause for the list. Bilges were dry. The boat was well equipped and at a good price. Still sitting there too. It was a while ago but I'm almost certain it was a Contessa.
Good job catching the list! Nothing screams suspicious like an owner that doesn’t want to show his boat 🤔
To make a statement "a keel to outrun a storm" is nonsense. No boat can outrun a storm when you are in bluewater at sea. Maybe, possibly if you are just off shore, but that will depend on wind conditions. Crazy to rely on the wind you need when you need to outrun a storm.
I agree! It’s much better to be able to ride a storm out than to rely on outrunning a storm.
I'm looking at a Contessa 26 and my friends told me that I won't be happy because it'll be so slow. What do you think?
If you have two identical boats, one with a full keel and one with a race keel. Say for simplicity sake, the full keel boat top speed is 6 knots. What would the high aspect ratio keel boat top speed be? Obviously this would just be a guess..but what's your guess? Thank you:)
The top speeds will be the same because of the hull speed limit. Basically, the longer the boats waterline, the faster it can sail without planning. If both boys have the same waterline length, no top speed difference! The equation is: hull speed = (water line length in feet)^0.5 x 1.34
The big difference comes in light winds. A heavy full keel will need more wind to get going while a light boat will zip along. I went out on a race boat one time, it was only 20 feet long and we did 18 knots! Obviously it gets up on plane and exceeds hull speed, and it did this in light conditions. It was very fun but I would be terrified of that thing if a squall came up while out sailing. A heavy boat usually needs about 15-20 knots of wind to start sailing nicely.
In my experience, when we are out sailing in light air days (10 knots of wind or less), everyone is motoring. The light boats and the heavy boats are all going hull speed under diesel power, so no one actually takes advantage of their ability to sail in light wind. My favorite was when we passed a guy who was motoring and we were on a beam reach. He had a very light Hunter and was going the same direction, he could have been sailing but was motoring through the light breeze.
My opinion: Contessa makes a really nice solid boat that you can have fun playing around in and if you ever decide you want to go further (or if you get hit by a storm) you are already in a very capable boat.
Full keels and long keels are the only way to go for coastal and offshore (non competition) work! One less thing to worry about for the skipper!!! A more comfortable ride and you can hove to in a storm!!
I fully agree!
You should be saying hydrodynamics
A separate discussion of multihulls would be useful, where righting moment does not come from ballast. In other words, part of the discussion about keels only applies to monohulls.
True, but when the hull is flying, it becomes ballast 😉
Some like old boats, Some like new boats. New boats have fin keels.Old boats have full keels. Why do you whant to bump in to things, i am sailing.
You never want to bump into things...you just do
Depends on purpose for me.. you want a racing yacht then the deep bulb on end of thin keel is a reasonable choice.
You want safe keel less likely to break off, protects rudder from impact and can handle a few bumps without ruining your day a nice full length keel would do me nicely.
That’s exactly the point! The “best keel” is the “best keel for your needs”.
That leg motion makes me want a swing keel.
Paldies par informaciju….
It's not just the leading edge that provides lateral resistance to bring the boat to windward, it is proportional to the surface area, at the expense of drag.
Yes, but the leading edge does the most so the rest of the keel is just drag. This is why foiling boats have such high aspect ratio foils: maximum efficiency with minimal drag.
That said, these also need speed to work while a low aspect ratio foil will provide lots of lateral resistance at very slow speeds. This is why a full keel heaves to and drifts slower than a fin keel.
Do you have any videos showing the lifting mechanism for a retractable bulb keel?
I do not but I would love to film one of those!
How does keel and rudder affect backing and close quarters maneuvering? eg backing into a slip.
robert baginski I actually covered this in great detail in this video: ua-cam.com/video/E1dt19C_vxE/v-deo.html
Are all fin keels bolted? Maybe the encapsulated fin keels aren't true fin keels?
Most fin keels are bolted on but some are part of the hull. You also have fin keels that are part of the hull with ballast bolted onto the bottom of the fin! It can get very complicated very quickly 🤪
Great info. Especially for people like me who don’t care about speed!
Glad it was helpful!
Hydrodynamic. Hydrofoil. It better not be an aerofoil, or you've done something terribly wrong.
Haha! Very true, but the shape is still called an aerofoil, airfoil would be when the breeze hits your keel after you capsized 🤣
There is no such thing as best, only different. Understand your intended term of usage first, only then can you select the most appropriate keel for you.
Yeah thats pretty much what we were getting at
I to like the long and full keel design however there is little information of what is a reasonable draft depth for blue water cruising, what are your thoughts
Personally, the deeper the better when you are offshore. The water is thousands of feet deep, so bumping the bottom is not a concern. The further down the ballast is, the more effective it is at resisting the heeling forces from the wind on the sails.
The issue is when you want to come into port, draft instantly becomes a concern and the deciding factor. On the US, west coast boats will typically have drafts of 8 to 10 feet because all of their waters are deeper, while on the east coast 4.5 foot drafts are the favored because it’s much shallower on that side.
Wisdom has a 6.5’ draft and is considered a “deep draft” boat on the east coast. There are places that we just don’t fit (the Florida Keys) because of our keel.
The question really comes down to where you want to sail, and then choosing a seaworthy boat that will let you sail into your destination.
Why has nobody constructed a part full keel to get two benefits?
It’s called a Cruiser’s Keel or a Brewer’s Notch (Ted Brewer came up with it).
While it has the benefits of both, it also shares in the problems.
thanks for the info. Now, where I go to find my beginner sailboat for North Okanagan
Yacht World is where I have bought both of my boats.
Twin keel is the best.
Been watching Leo rebuild Tally ho....now thats a proper keel...lol
Oh yeah!
Thanks for an interesting and informative video 👍 I was hoping you would bump into an Albin Vega on your tour, which I have, since it’s something in between all of the other boats. Maybe a semi-long, shallow keel!? But I guess it would be something like the weather helm will be good, and the rudder is well protected!? Please don’t mention the position of the prop 😅😂
That was a great one guys. Wonderful explanation and just what I am looking for in a sailing channel. Thank you both.
In 50 + years sailing iv hit 1 whale 1 orca 1 container a dozen or so logs Oh and several sand banks , touch wood never sunk (close on the orca one) all in different keal configurations but i must admit id feel safer 'relaxed' in a medium keal in a steel yacht with a good skeg on the rudder - fair winds (54ft. Round bilge .steel Vandestadt was the best)
I’ve got a Pearson 30, which has a integral keel, glassed in. No keel bolts. Still a fin keel, but with some of the strength benefits of a full keel.
Spade rudder, though, unfortunately.
Is it True a swinging keel might be best for you in the ICW ? Doctor.
It would be most advantageous! Many times we search for an anchorage with “channel like depths” outside of the channel when a lifting keel would give us the ability to motor into the shallowest of places and sleep soundly far from the channel.
Wait tell water get into ur full keel fiberglass then tell us about Wich shape is Les work .
Still less work that repairing a keel smile after every grounding.
i always thought that a full keel with a retractable blade would be the best combo for me
Ah yes, the centerboard! Such a versatile setup
Great explanations on the different types of keels. You might have talked about bolt on vs encapsulated as well.
That is a great topic! We will make that video shortly
What about cutting keel?
I have long keeled boat an Allegro 33, a swedish design.
It has a very stable design. Similar boat has been sailed around Cap Horn and back. It flipped around without being demasted and the young couple went on to sail....
The boat i just bought is a SD, apparently, I thought it was a fin keel, after bumping the bottom a few times, I'm glad it is and the performance isn't really different from the fin keel model, some people say they won't point as high but I disagree.
Really good explanation, liked the acknowledgement that things are gonna break & can you fix it (can YOU fix it!). There are few long keel boats made any more but thankfully a lot of the older fibreglass hulls have survived well and are now relatively cheap. They were mainly designed with long keels for no other reason than that's how wooden ones were built and the shape also lent itself to moulding. The wooden ones were built that way because that's what you could do with wood. Early fibreglass hulls were also overbuilt because nobody knew how good or not fibreglass would turn out to be. All of which happily means that we mere mortals can find a boat for not too much money that is capable of taking us anywhere we want to go. Happy days!
That’s exactly how it went with our boat “Wisdom”. Built in 1968 and way thicker than she would ever need to be. That durability is why we are still sailing today!
Also, I bought her for a song and then spent a few years rebuilding her to make her ready for passage making, but I was starting with good bones.
I would have liked to have had a pro/con on a swing keel set up
They are awesome systems!
The old shape i.e a pilot cutter have a look at Elley Grey ideal for ocean crossing , also because no cut away forefoot it also motors much better , a fin keel does not motor well in any see state , Elley Grey 65ft OD 19 ft Beam 9knots crusing under power 10/12 knots under sail old shape but still fast and less lightly to catch lines .
She is gorgeous! In the Chesapeake, we would sometimes sail over a crab pot (that was in the middle of the channel with a dark float on it) that we didn’t see until we were on it. The keel would push it away from the prop and off at the stern; never fouling the prop!
Hey guys--what about centerboarders ?
They function like a fin keel, very good for upwind performance!
If your in a hurry get retracting keels there on airplanes! If your keel breaks off you get wet!
Aero dynamic? Really? How about hydro-dynamic. It's not an airplane.
While not an airplane, the concepts are the same and the keel is referred to as an airfoil.
On a boat, the term hydrofoil is reserved for appendages that will raise the yacht out of the water. On “foiling” sailing yachts, the keel is “airfoil” while the foils that lift it out of the water are the “hydrofoils”.
@@RiggingDoctor I prefer to keep as few apendages outside of the hull a possible. Thanks for explanation on that.
The full keel on the pilot house cruiser looked to be a good choice for ocean passage. That pilot house would sure make night watches more comfortable. Any idea of make and model of that boat. If you were stepping up I think it would be a good choice for you and Maddie. Nice conversation on keel types and their differences.
It looked like a custom made steel boat. There were a lot of metal boats there from boat builders I had never heard of before.
🤔 Termonology: Hydrofoil versus Airfoil (air above the deck; hydro below the waterline) 😎
Yes, but the shape is called an aerofoil regardless of the fluid it operates in.
@@RiggingDoctor I didn’t know that, thanks 🙏 👍.
I was looking at a Catalina 30 Wing keel is that a good boat
Wing keels give more leading edge length which in turn gives you the performance of a longer keel without the added depth. The downside to a wing keel is if you get stuck in mud, apparently they can be harder to get unstuck (the wing gets buried in the soft mud like an anchor fluke).
I would go out for a sail and see how you like the motion of the boat in light winds and also in heavy weather. If it sails the way you like, then it would make a good boat for you :)
You have the most informative sailing videos I have found in regards to repairs, tweets and what to expect and how to deal with the day-to -day surprises. Thank you.
You are welcome
It rather depends on the usage of the boat.
Exactly!
Where’s the example of a swing keel
I didn’t go into detail on them. I was focusing on fixed keel styles.
Exactly how does a boat with a fin keel "outrun" a storm at 8 knts?
😂 I know!
It’s going to hit you and it will hurt when it does if you have all your sails up as you try to outrun it.
@@RiggingDoctor reef early and get real.
My Skookum is not going to outrun anything but it really does not need to. There is no boat I would rather be in except maybe a kraken 50, if i had an extra 1.5 million to spend.