Origin of all Tai Chi
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- Опубліковано 27 лют 2024
- Master Gu talks about the origin of all Tai Chi 🥋
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Wow being a solo tai chi practitioner, I’ve never consider that I am part of a lineage and a tradition or belong to a group. So “Let’s work hard together and improve together” is amazing for me to hear, as I now feel connected to others who partake in this practice. Thank you!
Thank you Master Gu 😊
Tai Chi was born out of both Wudang and Shaolin monasteries, is a blend of techiques and Taoist and Buddhist phylosophies.
Xie Xie Master Gu for the educational and very enlightening video ☯️😌
How can you say in the end, we all need to work together to promote this cultural heritage when you discount Chen-style tai chi as not tai chi but a martial art? That's rather divisive, isn't it? I practice Chen-style and Yang-style tai chi, and love them both for their different characteristics. I have just started learning Sun-style and exploring its similarities and differences to Yang and Chen. Learning one helps me deepen my practice in the other. At the end of the day, whatever style(s) one practices, one should always seek to understand more and deeper.
Because it's a marketing gimmick. Cmdr Chen Wangting is the hereditary peer and creator of Taijiquan (from prior arts). Gu references Sanfeng who is a legendary amalgam of different persons and the reality of pre-revolution Wudang is that they practiced arts closer to Baguazhang which is a seperate family heritage and also not really from the mountain. Thats why they were targeted actually because originally (old china) they did participate heavily in war. The real Taoism has little or nothing to do with the western understanding of peace and tranquility. Which is the real surviving remnant of the schools (some call them cults) in Taiwan. Who are revolution survivors.
The timeline of Chen developing from pre-existent systems, into Yang - which many don't realize has a good martial component of its own - is accepted in Beijing. Which why it pops up on western wikipedia in citation from there (studied and reviewed in both Taipei and Beijing actually).
Wudang ancestry was sadly erased during the revolution and today - it's a money making scheme. They want to separate it from its martial focus but that was not the way of the people of the mountain. Their beliefs were ANCIENT and I mean that in every sense. They come from an era scholars once considered myth; and it gradually developed. They were at one point linked to the Mohists and fought with them. For western familiarity this was like early Knights Templar. Defending the roads and engaging in counter-siege warfare and they were famous for it. Zhenwu - the Black Emperor - wasn't a extremely significant Taoist deity for nothing. In fact, combat was something they highly loved and cared about. Which is why Wudang Sword would have been a true sight to behold. Sadly it too was lost. If people are interested in a modern revival of it, I recommend Laoshi Scott Rodell. He's an American but a student of Yangjia Michuan and looking to bring back some truth to Traditional Chinese sword arts. They are not just for show!
天下太极出武当！！道法自然。谢谢🙏Master Gu🙏
I'm a long time practitioner of Chen style, which I love, but I still believe it's impossible for a single person to have created a whole Tai chi system, philosophy and martial art, too complicated.. Even the founder of Chen must have had connections to Wudang and learnt the basics from this style which is most likely the oldest of all. I actually believe Wudang and Chen share common features, including energy explosions (fah jing) although they might be studied differently, it's an impressive style indeed too which I'd love to learn. Wudang is definitely the centre of something deeper and full of mystery.
True but what Gu is telling you is marketing. It's also a lie. I have studied classical Chinese history in Taipei so I can probably clear up a few elements.
Commander Wangting did create Taiji. At least in the way it's known today. It's an amalgam of arts that he studied in the military - many from extremely famous generals. Blended with Qigong from the Shaolin/older hereditary traditions and inputs from his life. When Chenjiagou evolved, the arts were built up as many know with the Yang system branching. A variant of that is what the CCP brought back to wudangshan as part of a cultural revival. That is the origin of Gu's supposed master Zhong. Who was drafted back in the 80s if I remember correctly the decade. Together with some older lingering monks - they fabricated the idea of the Wudang lineage and Sanfeng at the mountain. The latter of whom is a myth figure of course (but in China this can be read as follows: An amalgam of real historical figures, not necessarily sharing the name or the prescribed time of living.)
If you were to look up the Wudang Academy here on youtube, you will see a European couple who tried to bring something similar to their continent. Perhaps you have seen his videos. What these are - are in some ways 'closer' because they are made up of a number of the fist forms/weapons forms and otherwise - derived from modern Shaolin wushu evolutions. Wushu itself being somewhat demonstrative today - but you might liken it to preserving techniques within forms, that were then forgotten or not practiced properly in sparring. Thus the effectiveness becomes diluted or lost. That is what western tai chi is. Basically missing the point (historically) but loosely based on movements that thousands of years ago were battlefield effective (Wangting era).
Wudang itself was originally associated with Taoism this is true. But every last one of them (of good standing) perished during the cultural revolution. We know this because of the records burning their materials and the fact that they didn't see it coming (or they would have fled like the other real masters to Hong Kong and Taiwan). Gu teaches a very very watered down version of their beliefs. Primarily because the Taoist masters who came to Taiwan where we are (civil war veterans) were primarily at that time pointing at the importance and essence of the religion. Which he tries to remove for his 'wellness' to market to the west.
Now please understand. There is nothing wrong with wanting to help people's health. Thats a noble pursuit. But you must be careful not to conflate this with those that perished during the revolution. Their arts were very similar to Kung Fu/Wushu and they didn't practice Taiji like Wangting - they practiced Qigong and arts much closer to Baguazang - which as you may know works closely with the tigrams and ying yang.
Chen family are quite hostile to the mountain tourist trend because when they try and claim lineage - they have very poor internal mechanics. The health again is fine -- but thats a topic MUCH better learned and covered by doing a course in Chinese Traditional Medicine (with qi gong as a focus). Taijiquan is a fist style - based upon pre-existent arts in the Commanders family. It's his legacy; which YES was assisted by his experiences and collaboration with other real people. The health only variant - comes much later. It's a mostly western/export idea for grandma in the park as you all seem to often call it.
Chen family focus on silk reeling because it gives rise to what Taiji was. A way of mastering internal power for conservation and energy as soldiers age. So that they may continue to be effective. A true understanding of what Wudang was - isn't possible without understanding that the people there weren't averse to combat at all. Zhenwu and others were major features. They actually did declare war at times. Which is why the revolutionaries dispensed with them. Today - Beijing is quite apologetic and interest (Chinese) in Confucius and Laozi is returning. They don't shy (academically) away from admitting that Wudangshan is a McDojo for business interests. That is why if you check the Wikipedia on Wangting - and follow the 'historical verification of him being the historical creator' - you should find scholars who have investigated this heavily and concluded that he can only be the origin. Taiji needs to be brought back into the martial family. Because it was never created for grandma. A decorated commander deserves more respect.
thank you for this clarification@cFaith, very interesting topic. I'm very aware of the commercialisation of Wudang, similarly to what happened to Shaolin and partially consequence of the progressive watering down of the sytems after the intervention of the revolutionaries, who killed many grandmasters. Nevertheless, despite WangTing definitely being the creator of something new, some of the substantial exercises to relax the body and start feeling the silk-reeling power must have been taken from difference sources. Too long and too internal to be developed by one person only in one lifetime, at least this is my own belief. He had the great intuition to make a real martial art out of it, which is an absolute gem of a discovery, as you say that Taichi was ,and still is in a way, meant for real fights. As for the watering down of Wudang and other arts, I believe that it is true in part, as there's luckily still so much that was preserved in terms of Nei gong, which can be still found in many masters today,. Hopefully, no all is lost! Thank you again for your precious input sir/madam.
@@ErraticFaith you got a lot of knowledge about this topic.
so you basiclly says that tai chi origin is come from shaolin?
cause i saw a master from shaolin that intruduce one of the most ancient form of tai chi and it still practice for show. i saw it here on youtube in shifu yanzi channel.
what you saying about the tai chi for mastering internal energy for the warrior etc, this what shaolin is teaching about qi gong, yi jin jing and xi sui jing.
so if i want to learn true tai chi i should look for shaolin tai chi ?
@@user-vo9ws6dz1s Hello, I have studied academically yes but I'll try and answer as best I can for the benefit of someone starting out.
Basically you should know that China has undergone ALOT of political and social problems over a long period of time. Which has in turn influenced how a lot of these arts and topics are presented to the world. You might know for example that there was a revolution against the old dynasties into the very atheistic CCP. This resulted in many arts cutting the spiritual component a lot - and presenting these old styles (theory) in a more politically suitable fashion.
Take Shaolin for example. In the very old days it was a center for religion, meditation, military officers (who visited to share and refine techniques) - many things. Today? It's very in line with the rest of China. It teaches in many instances pretty forms and gymnastic routines -- but they resemble little, in terms of my ancestors original teachings.
For Shaolin - the idea that many present, is true. They focused a lot on [external] [hard] martial arts. They consider much of their Qigong suited to this purpose - but they also do practise a great deal of the basics (applicable to lots of different arts).
For Wudang - the idea that they focused [only] on the internal - is false. There were quite a variety of systems being taught. This is because pre-revolution, the Monks were descended from a old Chinese faction/dynasty that fought in combat [war] regularly. The problem here (as is maybe obvious) is that a lot of people don't live long. So mastering any sort of internal techniques (and not just going to the much easier external) was difficult. Original Wudangshan was famous for warfare. Which you won't see presented here - because they Government don't want you to know why the Red Guard originally [redacted] all of the old masters of the arts there. Which they sadly did.
Taoism - which you can read about yourself here on youtube if you have interest - is a religion. It always was in most cases (rather than presented as a philosophy). Like any religion - you might say there is a philosophy too (like the 10 commandments in Christianity) but do they really mean much without God? Why should people follow them? What is the real 'basis' of them? You wouldn't know. Not unless you learnt the full system. So I have an issue with taking the arts 'apart' like this. I think that to fully understand Taoism, you need to understand a fair amount of our history and culture (personal opinion).
To answer your question from above, its something like this:
Taiji boxing - 'Quan' if you like --- is spread around. Because the masters had to run from what happened. What is taught in Chen Taiji -- what Master Gu seems to dismiss as a 'martial art'; is basically ALL of what Taijiquan is.
It's an internal form of martial arts that was derived/taken from Cotton fist boxing and many other similar systems. Basically Commander Wangting. a military officer, combined what he learned in the military (from many of those generals that visited places like Shaolin in their careers) with principles of Qigong and similar inner studies (which are yes, a part of Shaolin). He wanted a system that allowed conservation of energy - both as he aged - and for it to still be effective when tired (minimal use of hard energy).
Thus in China we might say that for the highest form of Shaolin - it's internal. Learning about how you apply inner to outer.
For the highest form of Taiji -- its actually understanding when the external is important. You will see this if you watch Chen. It has silk reeling and explosive release of energy. Into a strike. What you will see called [fājìn, 發勁]. If you do not understand this --- then you do not understand Taijiquan. It's that simple. It's like removing God from Christianity as mentioned -- the power 'behind' it is completely lost.
What shaolin can teach - Like Shifu you mentioned is body conditioning and hard qigong. This is extremely strong for self defence that would be more familiar to westerners. What they teach internally -- is at first basic sets of Qigong (some overlap with the internal arts) and then [hard] Qigong -- which focuses on further conditioning of the body for the battlefield.
The internal arts are more difficult. Because few are willing to diligently practise. You still learn those basic sets (like Shaolin) but then you MUST move to an understanding like I mentioned in Chen. If not then you're basically grandma in the park. Which is likely why Gu only focuses on 'wellness'. Unfortunately this level of wellness is [in practice] little better than Yoga in the west, or a general sports boxing class like Taebo. Yes - good living is good - but Usain Bolt eats McDonalds every week and is an Olympic Champion. There's nothing unique to it. Thats where I get annoyed because it sells my ancestors short. I want to see our arts EVOLVE and continue -- I think that's respectful!
So for you ---- if you're young --- the harder styles of Shaolin might interest you and the Qigong and so forth is traditional and good. Yanzi is a very good martial artist. That said -- Shaolin in China (which is why many of those masters moved to Germany) is a tourist trap because of Government policy. Much like Wudang.
To find a style (continuation) you would start with the foundations ---- understand that you need to grow further when the time comes --- and find something suitable.
As one final example to you. Imagine I was interested in Wudang Sword. A famous Chinese battlefield form. It can't be found any longer at the mountain. All of the masters were [redacted]. Today you will find more of it --- in the work of Scott Rodell (an American sword teacher who learned from one of the escaped masters) than you will China itself. He isn't perfect --- but he has started a movement to bring it back. With many of us involved internationally.
So you see what I mean I hope. That you have to look around. Its a complex subject.
If I had a recommendation for people looking to really understand. It would be to learn the Qigong from Shaolin. Learn the Chen forms (long form) from a school associated to Chenjiagou (the family home and teacher should be accredited - and they are around the world too) and aim to master Jin as mentioned --- then you will begin to understand internal energy.
Yin yang is balance. Wudang know that you cannot truly understand [internal] without [external] and vice versa. So you aren't wasting your time with Chen or Shaolin. There is something to remember however. When learning Chen, do it separately. It's very hard to learn soft movement and not confuse it with hard. Imagine like trying to learn Chinese and Japanese at the same time and getting confused. So be be careful to balance and isolate your study properly. Or you will end up relying on your external power and not fully learning to rely on the soft internal. The latter does work but it takes properly learning the form (which is why all chen will recommend an in person teacher).
Finally if you want to understand Tao (concept) --- follow an Academic route in the background. Brook Ziporyn was my teacher at University. Published numerous books on the topic with references to others. The biggest mistake Master Gu has made, is to tell you that ''Daoism is vague''. Simply because that's what it appears to say in Daodejing. This is not entirely true (an incomplete understanding of classical chinese). As you will learn for yourself -- if you look into it.
Hopefully that covers a little bit of everything.
@@ErraticFaith Thank you for sharing your perspective. I practice Bagua and some Xingyi in Taiwan, and my teacher emphasizes the need for both "hard" and "soft" from a martial arts perspective, so I have a lot of agreements. But, I don't have particularly strong opinions about Taijiquan.
As an aside, Wudang Academy has some good content, but I personally really question the Baguazhang they teach. When I look at some others from Sanfeng pai 三丰派, I don't have the same concerns. Maybe that's how they were taught though.
Anyway Wudang Sanfeng pai 三丰派 and Xuanwu pai 玄武派 martial arts look like they'd be fun and challenging to practice, but I also find it too exaggerated and showy (just an opinion). By my understanding, the Sanfeng pai 三丰派 martial arts curriculum was put together in the early 1980s; the Bajiquan comes from the Central Guoshu Institute 南京中央國術館 version, but now with Wudang flavor, the Taiji and Xingyi mainly come from Guo Gaoyi 郭高一 and Zhu Chengde 朱誠德, the Bagua comes from Liu Chengxi 劉誠喜, and the more "northern" Xuan Zhen style 玄真們 comes from Kuang Changxiu 匡常修, a Daoist who lived on Mt. Lao 嶗山 and had learned a lot of Shaolin and local Shandong martial arts in his youth. Explains a lot.
Thank you for mentioning Brook Ziporyn. I'm curious about his academic perspectives.
I'm curious about historical references to martial arts culture in Wudang Mountain Daoist centers in the pre-modern or early modern periods.
For example, we can look at a lot of references to martial Buddhist monks, including Shaolin warrior monks, from things like Jiangnan jinglüe 江南經略 "Joint strategies of Jiangnan", but I'm curious about what's actually in the historical record about Wudang.
As a practitioner of Wudan taijiquan you would say that! Each style has it's own origin story, Yang would argue that the term taiji was first used to describe their system, Chen will argue Yang came from Chen - just enjoy the style you practice.
It would be great to have a definite historical fact on the origin of Taiji, but that doesnt really seem to be the case as is. So we should just enjoy whichever style we practise as you say
The origin of Taiji in its modern form is factually Chen Wangting. The ministry have repeated it so often it's become nauseating at this point.
Yang does not argue that it originated Taiji. I've never heard anyone anywhere ever claim that. They all clearly state that Yang Lu Chan learned it from the Chen family. He then passed his style down to his three sons, and things go from there.
@@kmusicjohnsen7127 They readily admit their lineage association to Chen because the story of how it was transferred and came to be is well known. I have yet to meet the Yang teacher who doesn’t echo that sentiment. Here in the east that’s likely reinforced by the idea that it’s a competitive art taught at university. So there are affiliations and accreditation to consider.
You won’t find the same with Wudang because it’s a re-invented school with no lineage. There were arts practiced in Wudangshan. That’s not historically refuted. Instead the issue is the revolution. Nothing was left after the cultural purge. We know this because within Taiwan are records of those that fled. They left to Hongkong and Taiwan as most are familiar (current politics).
Much later (1978+) the mainland Government started to soften policy. They wanted money and to leap forward into the global space.
That is how modern Wudang came to be. A collection of people who have nothing to do with the mountain resettled on it. To sell and teach the official export brand. A bit like what people tell you about modern Shaolin. Plenty of students on UA-cam sharing those sentiments that lived there.
In Taiwan we know that Taoism was and is a religion. No grey area. The two major sects of the faith remain in the R.O.C and being adopted into the schools is a complex process.
As such we don’t take ‘western made Taoist philosophy only’ schools seriously. Because it is false. And tries to bring an anti-religion appeasement to suit western secularism and the CCP. Who are historically atheist and have done this to mock the original masters. It’s vile.
Yang lineage happily agrees that it's origin is Chen. In the mainland this is likely as much to do with accreditation and proven history as much as it is personal opinion but nonetheless I've never known a teacher of the style, even abroad (legitimate ones) claim otherwise. As it's well documented.
The outlier for the families will be Wudangshan because it's a re-invented style. One that ceased to exist in the past and has been put back together with parts of other unrelated systems. All with a fraudulent interpretation of the philosophy along side.
Ya se a donde ir cuando pague un boleto a china 🙏
The best type of Tai Chi is the one you do.
Being a Wudang practioner for almost two decades now - and a martial artist for more than four - and having done Pushhands and San Shou with Tai Chi practioners of many styles, I do not think that this is very important. From Wudang masters alone, I think I have heard eight or nine different origin story variants - sometimes two or three from the same person in different years 😂 In part it is adaption to a given teaching situation - didactic reduction. In another part it is marketing, because many people want the 'original'. But every teacher teaches according to their ability. And to their current understanding of what they teach - becsuse they are developing and learning themselves all the time. Also by exchange with practioners of other styles. So important is: find a good teacher who teaches good stuff. Today. Nit 400 or more years ago.
I like to believe that tai chi originated in Wudang and I love traveling there - and I see it now as a foundation of many things I do - and I teach using the stories. Because they are useful. But I know there is a controversy which I see mainly as a distraction. But I do not earn my living from this, so it is not really important to me.
There is no confusion. Taiji factually comes from Chen. What was taught on the mountain was lost during the revolution. We know this is fact from the archives in Taiwan of the pre-revolution sects. Few survived and what remains is there. The mainland Government having [redacted] what was originally at wudangshan, replaced it with a modern mix of nonsense.
You can't imagine how irritating it is to see someone present a small element of our belief like DDJ as 'vague' - and then lecture foreigners about things which aren't remotely true, to support a modern Government narrative. It's honestly insulting.
I agree
HOW IS TAI CHI CONNECTED TO LAO TZU?
A complicated story. But for a simple comment - the root is philosophical and religious in equal measure. Although you're used to Laozi being called the grandfather of the philosophy in the west, it's closer to say that he was simply the most popular and successful advocate. The principles existed far earlier and this is why so many are able to make a scam out of it. Because that era, until more recent times anyway, was considered more myth than real. You might think of it like claims about moses, the early hebrews and so on. Without solid details people just didn't know what to make of it. We now know that early religion was very important and that the Taoist 'cults' of Taiwan (religious groups that survived the revolution) were not as far from the truth as it appeared.