The REAL Split in the Sonic Fanbase
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
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Shout-out: @BlueVivacity for P-06 footage, and @StickmanGuides for making a one frame slander cameo
Tags: #sonicchannel #soniccontent #sonicthehedghog - Ігри
No matter what you think on this subject, it doesn't matter Uncle Ben, go pre-order Sonic X Shadow Generations now
This is such a based comment that the hell 😭😭😭
with what money T_T
@@scrapm3ta1your savings
I’m going to when the sale happens.
@@0n1c420fr
I lean on bad because at least bad can still be fun, while boring is by definition not fun
Absolute and utter facts
I agree with you, in my opinion games should come down to whether it's fun for you or if it's not.
This
Exactly. At least I can come back to Forces and still have some kind of fun.
Frustration is worse
Hidden third option:
Ignore option 1&2 and only play the good games
EXACTLY
Wise choice 👍
Sonic unleashed, generations, shadow generations, colors, colors ds, rush, rush adventure, 3&K, sonic 2, heroes. (just to name a few)
@@Superjetski456that’s all the good games
@@chris1229sonic no all of em, mania, advanced 1,2, and 3, frontires, and sonic R
i hear you i hear you but why are you showing heroes
One of the worst games I've ever played
ive played through sonic 06 on my modded ps3 and i realy enjoyed it and yes i think its better then forces
Right there with ya man! 🤚
I prefer bad games, because i can feel emotions while playing them, positive or negative, it doesn't matter. But while playing mid games, i just feel... nothing... And in my opinion, presence of emotions is much better, than a lack or even absence of it.
Same dude Iol
sonic forces is a nothing burger of a game but until the end , when the last 3 levels all of a sudden actually become hard and we got a fucking auto scroller level in a sonic game 😂, bro that classic sonic level is so awful
Well, tbf Sonic 3 also had an auto scroller
@@Mecha-telfor a short time
@imanaalsayegh I do definitely see your point, but I feel like they're the same level of bad, but hey i haven't played forces, so maybe I'm wrong about it.
@@Mecha-tel nah Sonic 3 controls good unlike forces that’s the difference
@@Mecha-tel yeah but it didn’t control like ass like in forces lol
When people said they luv o6 more than force. They're not talking about po6. At least o6 gives u "freedom of control." unlike forces where it holds ur hand on a tricycle in a empty park
I do see where you're coming from, but personally i think a video game's most important aspect is to be "fun". And i think the worst thing your video game can be is boring. Sonic 06, while a glitchy unfinished mess, you can definitely have fun and see a vison or potential within it. The level design, music, the story of shadow and to a lesser extent Silver, and the broken gems, are things that make the game fun or entertaining. Sonic Forces, is a finished game, sure, but it's literally a 2 hour long game with very little substance in it's design, it's story, it's controls, and overall existence. It's a finished product that has very little to say about itself. There was potential in forces too, but it felt like they didn't want to go all the way with it, while 06 just didn't get the development time to have it fully realized. There's an argument to make for both sides, and i guess it just depends on what you want most out of a video game. A structly sound game that isn't entertaining, or a game that wasn't finished but CAN be entertaining.
While I do understand your argument here, I can't help but think you're understating the problems forces has. I know you really like it, more power to you, but in my eyes choosing between 06 and forces means choosing between a bad game with solid level design, concepts and some fun moments... And a bad game with almost nothing to call its own. I know what I'm picking
I'd always rather play a boring soulless game over a game that could make me mad, is the TLDR of it. But I see your point as well.
@@GDubA Classic levels on Sonic Forces make everyone mad, there's tons of issues with how classic controls.
Bro is replying to every comment
@@GDubA I replied to two comments, you have a weird definition of "every"
sonic cd is not mid guys why are you laughing at me 😞
fair enough
This video had such good editing and it's honestly super fun to watch. Keep cooking GoobaDoobA 😊
Thank you very much man
I heard an interesting spin on this discussion once, in favor of 06, that I thought would be interesting to share:
If you asked a random Sonic fan "Which would you rather do one full playthrough of, Forces or 06?", most would probably say Forces. Not just because its the more functional game, but also because its insanely short, so you would be done it with it quicker.
However, if you instead asked that fan "If you were stuck on an island and could only bring one as entertainment, would you rather take Forces or 06?", that really changes things.
06 may be incredibly broken and glichy, but its also a much fuller game than Forces. There's mechanics to exploit, hub worlds to mess around in, tons of side levels, even the story has much deeper investment than Forces. So question #2 actually makes 06 the more appealing option.
At the end of the day its just personal prefrrence though, I know people who've mastered vanilla 06 and can have fun with it. But I get why a lot of people would prefer Forces for just working the way its supposed to.
I 100% agree, it's the same way with Unleashed and Colors for me. Both games are great but Unleashed is a game that is fuller and has more replayability in the stages, while Colors is just a more fun game to go through since there is no werehog and what not. Thank you for the comment!
I'd pick forces every day of the week for that island over 06, just saying
I think where you’re confused on this subject, is you’re trying to treat which games are “bad” or “mediocre” as objective. Like, you really want to hammer home that 06 is bad and want to convince those who enjoy it that they shouldn’t. And you say P-06 completely changed everything when it didn’t really. Level design is mostly the same, and the gameplay is smoother, but not something unrecognizable from the original game.
I'm definitely on team "bad" game over boring game, because bad to ME (the one playing the game) is not the same as bad to a bunch of uptight weirdos on metacritic or twitter 🤷🏻♀
If I have fun, I have fun; if someone else has fun with something else, then someone else has fun with something else. It legit doesn't matter but people still wanna baseuild their whole identity around jumping people for liking the "wrong" sonic games 😂
This is the truest take of all here. If you can find reasons sonic blast wasn't completely terrible, you can find reasons anyone would have fun with any game
At least shadow’s character isn’t screwed up in 06
Shadow is also pretty alright in forces tbh
@@GDubAyeah, he’s way better in Forces than how he was in Free Riders and Boom
@@Theultimatelifeform2001I can definitely agree on that after 06 they made his character sh+tty!
Am I a phycopath for enjoying 06 on the 360 normally?
Maybe
@@GDubA there only one stage I will admit is not fun, and that's flame core.
It's okay I'm also a sinner for enjoying the game normally as well hell I liked it so much I even 100 percented that son of a glitch buggy mess of a game!
@@gutembergnery7985 wow
@@chandelight59 I know lol 😅
Nice editing, it’s eye catching but not obnoxious.
Am I the only one who likes forces
No I do too
I think the debate is actually more complicated than that. From what I am seeing, people don't like Sonic 06 more than Forces because it is so bad it's good. Sometime it might be because of that, but from what I am seeing, Sonic 06 is gets some appreciation, because of the few good things it has. And maybe nostalgia too, but that's another debate entirely. People love some parts of the story, the soundtrack, and the level design. In fact, Sonic P-06 changed a lot of stuff, but the level-design was barely changed from what I heard, which shows that 06 actually had good level design, buried inside all the broken stuff and bad controls. And many people argue that if you gave the Sonic P-06 treatment of keeping the same level-design, but changing the controls and other elements, to a game like Forces, it wouldn't be nearly as good.
Because of that, I don't think this is a debate of Bad VS Mediocre, because from what I am seeing, people are either thinking Forces is legitimately bad and not mediocre or they are thinking 06 is mediocre, and not bad, and that by the end of this they think the two games are about the same quality. Instead, I think this is a debate of "Good stuff mixed with lots of frustration" VS "Absolutely nothing". Sonic 06 is considered a game with good things in it but many horrible things about it as well, while Forces is a game with not a lot of horrible things, but not any super good things either. In fact, you could argue Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric is considered a mix of the two. Many horrible things, and no redeeming qualities.
I have been for this video to upload for quite a bit and wow honestly Gdub this was good. While I don’t agree with everything in it this was goated.
PLEASE re-write that first sentence, almost had a stroke with that grammar damn 💀
@@sikosonix901 fr
@@sikosonix901 I was in a rush you right lmfao
Glad you liked it
Most of the bad games have aspects that I truly love. The rest of the experience may range from okay to frustrating, but I can always look back on those moments I like and remember that there were people who cared when making the game. Contrast that with the mediocre games. It’s just a constant stream of meh with a side of alright that I won’t look back on at all. In turn I end up more frustrated than I was with the bad games because it just feels like the devs were just phoning it in for the check instead of trying to make something exceptional.
what editing software do you use
As far as your takes at the beginning of the video, I actually do agree with Sonic 2 > Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure > Sonic Adventure 2, I like Sonic 2 more because I find it more replayable, and Sonic Adventure because, frankly, I don’t find it nearly as frustrating as the second game could be at times.
The only thing I disagree with is Colors > Generations, but we all have our preferences
For me, I specifically dislike Sonic Forces slightly more than 06, but that's purely because it came after Generations (boost formula wise), which is a fantastic game.
Why? Let me explain it this way. Imagine being excited about a game that follows the boost formula once again after playing games like Sonic Lost World or Sonic 4 episode 2 for so long. It's being promoted with the idea that it was gonna be a more serious tone compared to the last few games, which is pretty epic imo. You get introduced to an epic LOOKING villain, wondering what their backstory is and all that. And beyond that, you fully believe that Sonic Team got the Boost Formula down perfectly with Generations. And that should've been crystal clear with the ratings it got.
Then you finally get the game. Quickly come to realize that the levels were extremely short and uninteresting, the villain's story on surface level sucks about as much, if not more, than DBZ Broly's backstory, and to top it all off, the Hedgehog Engine 2 butchered the boost formula from the Hedgehog engine 1, with inconsistent accelerations, somehow both stiff AND sloppy controls and stiff cameras.
6 years after Generations and they somehow made it worse after having a really good run with Colors and Generations. It's not just the mediocrity that I dislike about Forces, but the insulting drop in quality.
(And the additional fact that they almost put Super Sonic behind a paywall, which is ridiculous on it's own.)
P-06 does not change nearly as much as you're making it out to be, lmao
Balls.
Physics is already way too much
I mean, I guess technically, quantity-wise it doesn't? The things it does change are astronomical in terms of making the game even remotely fun for anybody who isn't adamant about circumventing the jank in base '06 to get even some enjoyment out of the game.
I can definitely agree with you that people can agree on anything. I wouldn’t say all of the stuff in this video I would agree with. Great video!
🤝
@@GDubA Handshake
0:30 *you mean sonic unleashed
Both are great games
Respectfully sorta disagree, it depends on how bad or how inoffensive but i like your vid
What category would Frontiers fall into, then? (Good, Mid, or Bad?)
goated
@@GDubA CORRECT! It was s trick question lol
I think the overlooked aspect of this discussion is the existence of good games, because if I had a choice between a bad and mediocre game I'd choose mediocre but if the choice becomes a choice between bad, mediocre, and good I'd choose bad more than mediocre, because you get the unique experience of something genuinely awful instead of just something not as good
While this is quite a bold claim, I do understand your perspective on things. On their own Forces is a much more comparable game then 06. However, when you mentioned P-06 and how it boosted support for 06, I think it would have been beneficial to also highlight Overclocked and what that did to improve opinions on Forces.
All that aside, I don't even get why tf peeps are squabblin about those two in the first place, we're past that and focusing on shad gens!
Pretty much, all the new stuff looks great and that's what matters
Another peak video
4:40 all of the level design is pretty much exactly the same. What P06 devs did was updated the textures a little, make the game run NOT like well .... sonic 06, updated the movesets to make them distinct enough to feel different but not unrecognisable from 06's original moveset and remoted most of the game breaking glitches that 06 is known for. Despite that the game is still at it's core sonic 06
I don't know about you but I'd consider that "a whole lot"
I feel like this video doesn’t really understand the actual argument between Forces and 06. What lost people feel is more respect for 06 than Forces, that’s why many people prefer it. Forces is bland, it has nothing going for and certain aspects of the game feel like insults to the fans, like characterization(Tails), the big new villain having a copy pasted boss fight, and advertisements implying characters returning (Chaos) that ended up having no bearing on the game. Forces has no soul, it has an okay premise that it wasted. It was advertised as a return to form for Sonic, but ended up being a game that threw everything that worked in the past at the wall by pandering to every type of Sonic fan, without understanding or considering what those fans actually wanted.
06 has more respect from many fans cause of what it could have been. 06 genuinely had the ability to be one of the best Sonic games ever made, but due to its many development issues it couldn’t achieve that. Saying its potential is just “Sonic adventure” is very dismissive and doesn’t give much respect nor acknowledgement to what the game wanted to accomplish. P-06 is not a completely different game, it doesn’t just take 06’s blue print like you said. It’s meant to show what the game was meant to be if they didn’t have to rush and were able to accomplish all their ideas.
I think most people mean by preference 06 over forces is that they like and respect it more. I would play Forces over 06 any day, cause it’s a shorter game. But I respect and prefer 06 more. Forces felt like it spat on the franchise and didn’t try to do anything worth a damn and they failed, 06 tried its best to be something special and failed due to circumstances beyond the developers control.
I and many others will respect what 06 tried to do 10x over everthing the pandering slop Forces tried to do.
I feel like you’re just not portraying the 06 side of the argument in good faith or with proper acknowledgment of the actual claims.
Ngl sonic 06 was my favorite sonic game as a kid and is probably in my top three still
0:29 sonic colors started as a port of Sonic Generations for the Wii
cite your source
huh
Share your source senior or we shall classify you as a liar
@@Just_A_Drip_Chicken i think its just speculation because Generations started development before Colors
@SFproductions1 A lot of Colors' assets are labeled identically to Gens' assets just with SD in the game files, while Gens' assets are labeled as HD, implying that Colors started out as or was at least partially built upon an SD version of Gens (similar to how Unleashed had an HD and SD version). Also, one of the earliest leaks for the game before it came out listed a Wii version planned for release (alongside a canned PSP port as well).
I don’t fully agree with all your points, but I do understand where you are coming from. Although I will say this. When I played through Sonic 06 on my Xbox 360, there were moments in that game that I liked. Whether that be the gameplay or story. When I played through Sonic Forces, I didn’t feel anything and haven’t had the desire to play that game after my initial playthrough. I’m not gonna say 06 is objectively better than Forces, because on a technical level, it’s not. But I got more enjoyment out of 06 than Forces and that’s why I like it more. And I just don’t like Forces. But this is just my personal thoughts.
It really depends on the game for me
Games that make u angry aren't fun. Games that are boring are... well it just exists, which is more fun than not fun
exactly, I think something that is frustrating is the opposite of fun, not being bored.
"you cant have fun playing normally because its a bad game"
Me who plays 06 completely as intended for the first time last year. And had fun all the way through. Lol. I personally find the nothing burger offensive because it feels like a lack of trying. It feels boring and creatively bankrupt. Or lazy. Corporate if you will. And to me the purpose of a game is to entertain. And if im bored playing a game. Then it fails at the 1 thing a game is supposed to do. Which is more offensive to me than a game where the devs really tried but the higher ups didnt give them the chance to finish. At least there was heart behind it and the desire to be good and really entertaining. But something like forces as the easiest example just makes me fall asleep. I can tell they tried with 06 and didnt have enough time. Forces was so long in the making. And it was still boring short and level design was super basic. That was way more offensive to me than a game that was made in a year with half the team split off being bad. Because thats frankly expected after such a short time and those conditions. And like i said at least they tried. Forces felt like corporate bare minimum. Especially after what, 4 or 5 years of dev time? And 2 or 3 years of the entire franchise being sonic boom. So much so that most people dont even know that Boom fire and ice was the 25th anniversary game. And not mania. Even says on the fire and ice box and promotional material. Thats how much of a slump we were in. We finally come back from it and its forces. That was a terrible time to be a fan. It was genuinely embarrassing. Even more so that some people at the time were saying "this is one of the best sonic games. I think they learned their lesson" which to be fair is quoted from the game grumps. But ive seen it elsewhere at launch too.
play it further nobody asked your opinion
@@heldanl7202 I 100%ed the game and got all the achievements on Xbox and all the dlc. I can't play it further. Lol. And yes someone did ask my opinion. The person who uploaded the video asked for peoples opinions. Lol
I would rather play vanilla 06 than Forces. Sonic games have always been kinda buggy since Sonic’s nature is to go fast. And there’s so many types of gameplay styles that what people consider “good” is always changing. 06 ruined the adventure formula, and forces ruined the boost formula. But to be honest at least 06 has decent level design and characterization. What we need is to get rid of the boost button, and have it work like Advance 2 where you can only boost by keeping up your speed. While keeping control / level design like certain zones (i.e. Egg Fleet, Final Rush, Sky Deck, etc.) linear paths are fine once in awhile, but we don’t need boring levels, and we don’t need a rushed game that’s full of bugs like me flying through the walls! But that’s my take.
This js a good video
I like to go for the more weird Sonics.
I got a couple quality favorites too.
Sigh no one can be happy, I hate the sonic fanbase
Me too!
Ok, so I watched the wole video and heres my 2 cents. When it comes to would you rather play a bad game or a medicore game, I'm in the camp of medicore. But when talking about Sonic Forces and Sonic 06 SPECIFICALLY, I actually put them BOTH in the "bad" category. 06 being bad cause of the insane amount of glitches and absolutely wierd and creepy storyline involving Sonic and Elise, and the controls. And Forces because of the a) lack of giving a crap about anything that game's story CLEARLY ozes with and b) the god awful as fudge controls in this game. Legitimately I think that Sonic Forces is the ONLY EXISTING 3D SONIC GAME, where you cannot make a full 360 degree turn in a nearly open area. I have legitimately died HUNDREDS of times because of the bad controls in this game, and while I can't speak to much on 06 because I don't own the game. I'm sure that, with enough patience, the game is at least interesting to pick up for the experience. Sonic Forces on the other hand, makes me absolutely HATE modern Sonic's stages, also, THE CHARACTERS LITERALLY NEVER SHUT UUUUUUUUUPPPPPPPP!!!!!! Like please, Tails, I get that you need Sonic in Sunset city but Sonic, you don't have to keep talking throughout THE ENTIRE LEVEL!! 06 probably has some legs up over Forces, even if it is a buggy mess, and no, I don't even think that its even REMOTELY controversial to call 06 bad. BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH BAD!!! Objectively they are some of the worst pieces of Sonic content TO EVER EXIST, alongside Boom Rise of Lyric but we don't talk about that one since it got assasinated by SEGA's poor video game making mindset, along with the studio that was making it.
Like, it shouldn't matter where you place Forces and 06 on a Tier-list or whatever. The one thing that we CAN all agree upon is that these are SOME OF THE WORST SONIC GAMES EVER RELEASED!! And that is not an opinion, that is a FACT, these are 2 out of exactly THREE games that almost ENDED THE FRANCHISE FOR GOOD!! So, I pretty much rest my case on, I would rather pick any game but Forces or 06 honestly. Anyways, that's my 2 cents, sorry for getting a little heated here. I don't mean anything by it, I just tend to put points of emphasis in all-caps so as to enunciate it others when I'm typing. But anyways, great video GDubA, and also, have a lovely day everyone, God Bless.
Your assessment of P-06 is wrong because there are several aspects to gameplay that don't revolve around controls. Level design is a huge deal, and P-06 retained the level design of 06. In fact, the new controls didn't throw away the old controls, they added on top of them. P-06 took a lot of work, but it didn't "redo the entire gameplay". That's just your bias against 06 speaking
I would see your point but the level design does not even matter if the controls suck, level design on it's own hardly matters. Controls should compliment level design, and likewise. Not saying that '06 has awful level design or anything because, yeah, it does actually have pretty good level design.
@@GDubA Controls on their own also don't matter if the level design sucks. If it controlled superbly, but the levels were horrid, that would be the same problem. IMO, fixing certain aspects of controls doesn't constitute completely redoing the entire control set. Most of what ChaosX did to the controls were allowing you to cancel actions with other actions or reduced how long it takes to perform an action. As someone who beat both 06 and Forces, I just had blatantly more fun in 06. Most of its bugs have to be intentionally triggered, and while its animation set lacks polish that shouldn't affect the core gameplay.
@@GDubA"Level design on its own hardly matters"
Thank God you aren't a game designer.
Same if it was the other way around, if the controls were amazing, but the level design sucked, then those controls on their own would not even matter.
ChaosX did not have the original source code of sonic 06 to put into a completely new engine. It is completely new movement, there is literally no argument there. P-06 is almost a different game if it weren't for the levels
Welp, while i do disagree with most of the subjectives points of this video,
I would like to know if i understood some of it correctly.
You are telling me, that you would prefer a boring bland game ( Force ) over an complete but easly triggerable game ( 06 ) ?
Why would you prefer that, could you like, desconstruct your feeling enough to be able to express objectively why you would prefer such a thing ?
Because im confused, the principe of a game, to me is to have fun, not to be bored. Therefore being boring is one of the most criticals flaws a game can have.
That's why straight lines that serve no purpose, like what we have in force & colors are that much of a problem to me.
Its not like SA2 for instance, where the straight lines serve to be spectacular, gain speed AND are before all, here to connect multiple 3D open zone together without having to use loading screen.
Those we have in modern game are just here to serve as "main content", and that's not engaging but boring.
That's why even if it does work as a technical game, it does not accomplish his function that is to be engaging and fun meanwhile, an engaging game but still technically broken such as 06 would be preferable today, as like you said, it COULD at least be fun, AND it could be easly fixed too as today patch are a thing.
So i ask again : why would you prefer a boring bland game over a funnier and complete game that would 100% be broken in his release state despite being fix gradually fix later ?
I see being frustrated as the opposite of having fun, so I would rather play a game that is neither than one that is 90% just frustration. It's like if I'm not having fun, I at least don't want to be mad.
I don't think it's controversial. A lot of people like what they like because of how it makes them feel. There are games that aren't as good that have made people feel frustrated but has also, those same games, made other people feel good for maybe the same or very different reasons.
So it's not really all that much of a crazy idea that humans are different & are attracted to different things, let alone maybe even to those things for different reasons. Just human nature, riiiiight there.
Enjoyed the video, as always & have a nice day everybody.
You're right, we can't agree. I would rather play 06' over Colors.
I know a good therapist whenever you need it
@@GDubA I don't visit therapists! 😉
@@joshuaweston6531that explains a lot
@@KaleSTUDIOS It absolutely does!
Why do you hate yourself?
I feel like people are kinda missing the point when it comes to this debate. Whenever a game was deemed to be bad, it seems like Sonic Team was just more willing to start over than to improve upon what worked and applying it to the next games. All this doesn't really get better with the fact that the games are already rushed on their own. Personally, I am STILL in disbelief that base 06 had its development team SPLIT to make Secret Rings, on top of Yuji Naka leaving with some members to form Prope. Frontiers was apparently gonna be released in 2021 and Iizuka basically demanded that they delay it later. And then there's Boom: Rise of Lyric, which, due to SEGA taking that exclusitivity deal, forced Big Red Button to shove it on the Wii U as a rushed mess that sold poorly. At the end of the day, the games should get better and deliver a positive experience for everyone, and I think we all just need to write a giant letter to SEGA basically saying "START GIVING A SHIT ABOUT YOUR MASCOT AND DEVELOPERS!!!" LOL
Like, I think we all the games to be better, and I think we all just need to take deep breaths and unite so that Sonic can have the best versions of his games. Frontiers introduced the Open Zone formula that has some potential, and making use of it in Sonic x Shadow Gens is interesting and I'm interested to see how it plays there. But yeah, the next big mainline game they've got in development will really prove if SEGA is willing to allocate their resources into putting out good products and if Sonic Team can improve on the Open Zone formula and not throw it away. They've been saing that the team is expanded and budgets are better now, but I'm not getting my hopes up until they can show us...
Nothing Burger: Rise of Lyric
And that's why it's better than Heroes!
@@GDubA I would absolutely play Heroes over Rise of Lyric any day of the week. Heroes can actually be fun, even when played as intended.
@@RandomAnimeGamer I play rise of lyric all the time I uh use the boost pads and fly with knuckles, and... kill living animals for rings, anddd... watch the amazing idle animations or find easter eggs on the map. Rise of lyric OBVIOUSLY wins this one.
@@GDubA TRUE!
@@CHICKENRAN34 You can do all of these things in Heroes besides killing living animals lmao
The whole "I'd rather play a bad game over a mediocre one" is the equivalent to saying "I'd rather eat my favourite food that has been poisoned than a food i dont like"
What kind of comparison is that? At least you won't die by playing a bad video game
@@shutupurmum My guy it's just a hyperbole
@@ALegendaryBlueHedgeIt's not a very good analogy
Based opinion, praise this user.
Maybe a more fair analogy would be you'd rather eat your favorite food that's been undercooked or burned? That's a bit like how I'd think of it.
I agree with your opinion even though I feel like the bad games have a better presentation
Im still mad at ign because they give sonic forces higher than unleashed and if you want to play a better game some of them boring or fun, 06 is better than forces
I was actually thinking about something just now that I think is somewhat tangential to this subject: how memorable is the game? A game can be an okay, inoffensive nothing-burger, but when you walk away from it, you never really feel compelled to pick it up again, and when people ask you about it, you just shrug your shoulders and say "eh, it was fine." By contrast, a bad game with potential will likely piss you off, but if you can get past that, you might just realize there were a few nuggets of gold in there. They might be tiny nuggets, but they were nuggets all the same, and while they don't change your opinion on the game, they do give you something positive to talk about and reminisce on. Sonic '06 was bad, but that doesn't mean it didn't have some memorable moments (even if, admittedly, most people probably wish they could forget some of them). Sonic Forces, by contrast, wasn't in nearly as bad a state as '06, but the game was so bland and shallow that it forced me to basically gaslight myself to find any enjoyment out of it.
I personally like 06 more purely because the level design is just as good as your average Sonic game. Dare I say some of the best I've ever seen. _But_ that's my subjective opinion. My objective opinion (tryna differ between what I personally like and what I think is actual quality) on the other hand is that Forces is quite obviously better than 06. I may not like it, but at least I can appreciate that it's higher quality gameplay wise. I don't care how much potential it had, how good the music is, how high the ambition was, how clean the presentation is, or how it's supposedly "Sonic Adventure 3". While some may matter, gameplay always comes first. If that completely fails, then so does the rest. You cannot use anything BUT gameplay to say that a game is good. This is the very reason that when people mention the Storybook games no one mentions the gameplay, as it's worthless.
"Storybooks games no one mentions the gameplay, as it's worthless"
THIS... Sonic and the Black Knight has an excellent narrative story, but it's hard to replay because the gameplay is... okay? It's not bad, but... I don't know...
@@sebastianmartinez5963 you can think however you want of the gameplay, but my point still stands. The games are mostly remembered for the story and not much else.
@@sikosonix901 Yes, that's fair enough. In fact, now that you mention it... I think Sonic 06 wouldn't be as memorable and appreciated by fans if it weren't for the ridiculous and ambitious story. Which is ironic, because the story of Sonic Forces also is just as absurd and ambitious like Sonic 06, but it is hated and shittig by the entire community (with fair reason, tho)
@@sebastianmartinez5963 Sonic 06 was memorable for its level design and Shadow's personality. The story is really secondary to it compared to games like Adventure 1/2 imo
@@RandomAnimeGamer Not really. Sonic 06's level design is good, but when it comes to Sonic fans, his story is what's most talked about. I mean, the cutscenes from that game (both the CGI and InGame ones) are still remembered by fans.
The CGI opening cutscene, Silver and Blaze in the apocalyptic future, Shadow facing Mephiles, while he chooses his fate, Blaze's sacrifice at the end of Silver's story, Sonic's death at the hands of Mephiles, Sonic, Shadow and Silver becoming his Super forms... Hell, even Sonic's cutscenes with Elise are also remembered by fans. Whether because of how infamous (Kiss's Elise) or cute (Sonic saying: "smile") those moments were.
I think theres some people who stay way too much on the internet
I don't play either but i never know until i play it.
Please don't play them, please and thank you
Not to offend anyone but l think sonic and the black knight is better then sonic colors
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE😲
Alright now
I think the main reason people dislike boring games more is that there’s no fun to be had. A bad game makes you feel something at least, but a boring game just leaves you indifferent. Sometimes being mad at a game is just better than playing a game that makes you watch paint dry.
I take 06 as its gameplay is leagues better then forces
Nothinburgers are always chicken-burgers for me, and i like chicken-burgers so...
Sonic X Shadow Generations will be a decent game I think
I personally prefer Sonic 06 over Forces. For a bit of context, I grew up playing Sonic 06, never making it past White Acropolis until years and years later when I played through the entire game as an adult, I also only have a bit of nostalgia, with most of it going to the multiplayer mode. I also played through Sonic Forces twice, even getting the platinum for it the second time, and I didn't even have to pay for it, as I got it free with PS+, which made the game quite a bit better, but with that said, I still prefer 06, as Forces to me isn't just mediocre, but actually bad, with things like the level design, the music (which sometimes I feel only I dislike), and of cause the writing, among other things, but with 06, the level design is good, the music is a masterpiece, and the writing is a miss when it comes to Sonics story, but a hit with Silvers and Shadows. The thing I like most when it comes to games is a good story and world building, which 06 has but Forces doesn't. And it doesn't have a good story or world then it better have damn good gameplay, which nether of them do.
I think that 06 is an okay game because in my opinion most of the parts of it (other than the frustrating glitches and long loading times) are interesting and have been what has made me 100% convinced to want to download and play P-06 after I get my own laptop PC later this year. I do understand that some parts of the story should have been written better and I have heard of the problem that Sonic Team was split-up to also make the Secret Rings game at the same time, causing them to not be totally focused on developing and polishing Sonic 06 and that they weren't given enough time either.
Just so you know, the release deadline for Heroes was made up by Playstastion and that company told the higher-ups at Sega that there would be no connections if they didn't make a PS2 port of that game before that deadline. Also at a certain time during developement the head of Sonic Team was forced to complete it all by himself! It would have been a better and more polished game if those serious problems hadn't have happened.
Can’t blame on that dude I never played sonic 06 but I would play a mediocre game then a bad game the first time I played sonic was sonic rush (2005) version
I'll say I made shadow the hedgehog look good, I really liked the different routes.
I take issue with calling Heroes a "bad game". Its a solid 7.5 out of 10 overall with enough high points for me to consider it one of the better games in the series.
Also, I agree. I'd play a mediocre game before a bad one, and the weird "06 is actually good" takes are confusing to me, as someone who actually played that abomination.
I'll put it this way
A game that's bad, you can find some ironic enjoyment out of - either by making fun of it or breaking it in half.
A medicore game? Nothing, literally...nothing. It's not good, it's not bad - it just kinda exists. Nothing makes me more angry tbh 😭
There’s definitely nuance to the discussion, and I’ve heard good points on both sides but speaking for myself on whether I’d rather play 06 or Forces I am in agreement that I’d rather play Forces. This has nothing to do with Forces merit as a game and is more so to do so with my genuine dislike of 06 and thinking it is that bad. 06 is a frustrating experience for me. I don’t care for the hub worlds, side missions, controls, etc. I only enjoy the music and cg cutscenes. This doesn’t mean much to me either because not only does it not make up for the bad experience I’m having while playing I also can just experience these things outside of playing the game itself. I also understand how good level design can make up for bad control in some people’s eyes, but at least when it comes to 06 that just is not the case for me. I’m not having fun even controlling my character so whatever fun there could have been for me to have with the level design is just not felt due to that.
I don’t enjoy Forces either as I think it’s a pretty weak game, and yet it also doesn’t frustrate me like 06 does. The impact Forces had on the series general reception is relatively negligible imo; the game came and went. 06 still looms over the general reception to the series, although to a lesser extent nowadays. Also the fact that I can complete Forces in much less time helps with my choice as well.
My favorite Sonic game is Sonic and the Secret Rings because I like the controls and the challenging missions later on in the game. Literally that is one Sonic game that took mad skill to play.
You might want to get that one checked out
3d blast is the GOAT
OF COURSE UR ON THE SIDE OF THE NOTHIN BURGER
(You think Colors is good)
What can I say I'm right. Plus Colors is one of the best platformers ever 😦
@@GDubA One of the best in being mid yeah
3:40 I love how you dunked on colours for no reason to make your point. Like Why the hate?
Nah zero hate I love Colors
@@GDubA then don’t you use Forces or Rise of lyric as an example of mediocrity, instead of colours?
I'm saying even games I like have alright moments, the point is that does not make the game much worse for me.
@@GDubA ok. Are we including sonic adventure in the bad game category?
No? It's for sure one of the best sonic games
Funny I asked myself the same question which is worse and what would people prefer and I'm always leaning towards 06 over Forces any day there is a couple of reasons why 06 was my first game on the Xbox 360 so yes nostalgia is hitting me hard and I'm aware and I know it's a bad game hands down it is! Lol but at least you have fun with it! Another reason too 06 is one of my top favorite Sonic games amoung other's but One of the other main reasons why it's my favorite too at least 06 is fun that depends how many different ways people can think of how 06 could be fun it could be for them messing with the glitches, how this game almost become the next Sonic Adventure 3 with multiple story paths wine different characters to play, the story is more fun and interesting mainly Shadow and Silver's story when I'm sorry yes Sonic's story was the weakest point unfortunately which is embarrassing for him in his own game but you get the idea! So yeah there's alot of fun to be have with son of a glitch master piece sculpture of sh+t lol as for Forces for me uhhhhhhhg that game was so boring you stick to one path though our the entire level with jush a hold of a freaking control Stick and the levels are way too short and they tried to make this game serous but it epicly failed hell 06 had a better serous story line then Forces did! The only things I loved about forces was the character customization and the music thats it! So yeah ygats why 06 will always be my top game over Foeces Any Day!
3:00 neither
i prefer bad because at least they tried. also i feel original 06 is better then forces for that reason. I remember 06, i dont remember forces, hell i barely remember colors.
It depends on what makes it bad. If it’s glitchy and messy but I can have a fun time exploiting that, I’d rather play that. If it’s infuriating and poorly designed (like Frontiers’ 3rd update), I’d rather pick the boring game.
A boring game like Forces is a slog to push myself through because I don’t really feel anything when playing it. I’d rather have fun messing with broken game than a game that just is there. But if I get agitated at poor game design, I’d much rather just play something that is boring.
i totally agree with you, i would allways choose a nothing burger over a bad game, what i think is making people mad in the comments is not agreeing with you in which games are bad or mediocre, for example i consider sonic forces to be a bad game not a mediocre game, i imagine thats the case for a lot of other people watching this video as well.
This is gonna sound weird but I like playing Sonic for its story and characters and for insane that might sound I’d rather play Sonic 06 than Colors. No disrespect to Colors but that is a nothing story compared to the abomination 06 is.
06 is full of great ideas, the most boring risk 06 takes is still more entertaining than the best colors idea to me. I don't have any fun playing Forces, zero, while i have lots of fun playing heroes (fun and raging moments lol). All of this is super subjective so I don't think I could argue with preferring a nothing burger, at the very least is healthier than subjecting to a frustrating experience? But again, there are people (like me) that sometimes find fun in rage and challenge
I mean I love 06 and think Forces is fun so I was never able to relate to these specific examples
But to try and answer... for me personally, mediocre game. A lot of people can get pleasure out of a bad game because "at least it's funny," but pretty much any game I genuinely think sucks ass is one that makes me fucking angry.
I would so rather feel neutral than feel angry because negativity is the most exhausting thing on the planet, and I will never want more of that in my life. Something being "funny bad" only lasts so long as charm for me.
At the end of the day though, I just play games that I like - regardless of if people see those games as bad - because I'm not a miserable reprobate lmak.
You like Sonic 2 more than Sonic 3? Blocked.
Let me put out my next video first trust
@@GDubA next vid on what?
@JustCallMeRaito (it’s on sonic 3)
@@GDubA okay, but S3 is still better than S2
I think you are framing the whole thing incorrectly.
Sonic Forces isn't just "inoffensive". It's legitimately bad. Someone thought it was a good idea to remove drifting but keep the ability to boost on sharp turns. The classic stages are a giant leap back compared to what was done on Generations. I can go on but I won't.
I very much am of the opinion that 06 is better than Forces. Despite being buggier, 06 did have higher points for me (mach speed sections, some of Silver's story, and the final final boss), whereas for Forces I was hoping each level would be the last one. "Am I done yet?" was a common phrase I uttered to myself while playing Forces.
I think a Sonic game that is a better example of inoffensive/dull is Sonic R. It just kinda exists, and is still better than these other two games.
I kind of agree, even with what games are better imo although heroes for me is extreme bias. Every (Main not spinoff) Classic Sonic Game (except CD,) Sonic Heroes, and Sonic Unleashed to me is soooo much better than, SA2B, Generations, especially Generations. If you ask me sonic's gameplay imo was perfected (boost wise) in Unleashed and Generations made it slightly worse. Hell i prefer the Wearhog over the combat in Frontiers, it's a lot better than people give it credit for plus you can literally mute the music or turn it down if you dislike the combat music that much. And yes i agree, SA1/SADX is sooooo much better than SA2, like level wise is an eh it's ok but it was repeating too much, but i like SA1 better, not because of story or any of that crap. But because of the gameplay it's just more fun, yeah some levels beat others and personally i don't like speedhighway that much in any version of it. And City Escape is so much better imo, but it's also a little...like...short? I guess? And i must say even playing P06 It's fun but i really can't get that into it, even with a 100% downloadable save file i am just a little bored, oddly enough i have more fun with characters like omega and even then his gameplay has new things to it. Like even in Frontiers i find myself just never playing sonic anymore and only tails or knuckles and somtimes amy when i feel like cheesing the platforming. And their combat is ASS and i really don't like sonic's combat either that's why i prefer the sonic unleashed combat over the other. And even in the new DLC People were saying like, you guys asked for more challange and better story and stuff so the challenge is fine. I did not ask for that and there's no reason on easy mode i should have been struggling and now even the slightly more fun part where the freeroam enemies are hard to beat it's not like that anymore. Massive F on Frontiers part for that one. Guess i should say F-tiers now.
Guys we all need to get sonic x shadow generations rn
Finally, something we can all agree on 😈😈😈
That kingdom valley for shadows stage looks fire as well! 🦔🦅
YOU'RE INFURIATING ME BY SAYING 06 SUCKS AND IT'S GARBAGE AND YOU'RE NOT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DO LIKE IT, LIKE EVERYONE HATES IT AND WE DON'T EXIST
This is how I feel when I play '06
@@GDubA But you said "WE can come to the conclusion that Sonic 06 is garbage"
Yeah I hope *we* can ;)
@@GDubA No I will always love that game from the bottom of my heart
The funny thing is how outisde of 06 and Forces who are defined by the whole fandom as the representation of bad and boring, the other games can pretty much be debated, as you said at the start, this fandom agrees on nothing, not only if you rather play a bad or mid game, but which games are actually bad, mid or good
For example, I disagree with you all the times that Heroes is a bad game, it does have some jank, that's a fact, but I just think the team swap mechanic works pretty well, the level design is really fun, the strategy behind the game is complex and really good, the level aesthetics are beautiful, the story is pretty simple, but just like Colors, it's a fun one that works as a story
I also disagree on CD being placed as "mediocre", it's in fact my second favorite Classic Sonic game, right after Sonic 3 & Knuckles and before Sonic Superstars and Sonic Mania
And for me for example, there are different levels of "boring"/"mediocre" games, for example, Forces is a "souless mediocre" game, it has no passion, no soul, not even the minimal details are there, there are no idle animations, Sonic doesn't do any cool tricks in his animations, the art direction is bland, the level design has nothing to offer, but I think there's possible to have fun speedrunning its stages, the story while not that great and definetly disappointing after promissing being the return of cool Sonic stories, I love how well it makes a war taking place in Sonic's world, I love how Shadow is characterized in that game, it's not a broken game, it's pretty solid, and it's good graphically
While Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric for me is a "unbarable mediocre" game, it's so boring, so nothing, that I can't feel anything at all, I don't even want to play, I want to quit the game after 5 minutes, I feel nothing, not a single bit of joy
And 06, I really don't like it, it's a frustrating game, people are right when they say there can be fun had with the game, but only when breaking it since it's not stable at all, casuals will never experience that kind of fun and the game is annoying in so many casual and simple things, you can't correct jumps in Mach Speed, your jump balls don't do damage to enemies, the characters are slow, the gameplay is stiff, the game is ugly, etc.
And with that, even though I think both Forces AND Rise of Lyric are "mediocre" games while I think 06 is a bad game, I wouldn't play Rise of Lyric over 06 even though I would play Forces over 06, because I think both RoL and Forces are different levels of "mediocre"
Same applies with other games, I think Sonic Colors is a "nothingburger" game too, but it is a cozy experience, the mechanics made for it works, it makes me have fun, the levels are nice, the aesthetics are really charming, it is a fun game and it works for what it was designed, unlike Forces
So although I agree with you that I would rather play Forces over 06, I wouldn't say I would play every mediocre game over every bad game
So for me, it just depends on the game of bad vs boring game. Like, I’d rather play Forces than 06, but I’d rather play Sonic Chronicles or Shadow the Hedgehog over Forces. And the defining reason is because of emotion. Boring games don’t invoke a reaction out of me. I can’t be mad at it because it’s not that bad, but I also can’t go, “Oh wow, this is incredible.” Because it’s not. I get way more out of Chronicles and Shadow for different reasons. Yeah Chronicles’ music is bad. Like they remixed a bunch of Sonic songs, and all of them are somehow terrible. But I love the story, and I love the gameplay. Shadow the Hedgehog is bad, too, and I’ve come to terms with it. And yet I unironically love this game, mainly because I know we’ll never get anything like it again, but I also enjoy a lot of the gameplay elements it has to offer, even if overall it’s not good. Heck there are downright frustrating portions to this game, and yet I still love it and would prefer to play it over Forces. Because at least it got a genuine emotion out of me. Playing Forces is the equivalent of watching paint dry.
I HATE Colors. The story is painful, the levels are mostly 2D (which is not what I look for in a 3D Sonic game) I don't like the themes of the levels, I don't like the Wisps, I don't like how they wrote the characters. It's just a huge step backwards
I'm gonna use a quote from Persona 5 Strikers to make my point:
"For any creative work, one should be able to feel some sense of the creator's passion. No matter how crude or unrefined the work may be, there should always be some sort of spark to those engaging with it."
Basically, I'd rather take a bad game that actually tried to do something than a boring game that's just being cookie cutter.
Sonic 06 may be a technically worse game than Forces, but there was something to get invested in, whether it was the plot, the characters, what have you. With Forces everything feels almost INSULTINGLY too safe to the point where there's no point in playing it
(Also, Heroes isn't a bad game).
I know this is not what most people think, but I do not care in the slightest if the developers "tried," I just want a game that is fun and not frustrating.
(also, Heroes is a bad game)
@@GDubA So a game that does little to nothing interesting at all vs a game that does interesting things but doesn't do them well, which sounds more appealing?
(Heroes is a MUCH better game than Forces and Lost World at the very least)
@@sonicsaiyan07 Well it depends on how long it is too, forces is MUCH shorter than '06 which is something I don't hear stated a lot. But in this case a 2 hour uninspired game that is 90% doing nothing and does hardly anything new is much better to me than an like an 8 hour slog that has *some* fun every once and a while.
(Heroes is one of the worst sonic games)
@@GDubA Fair enough
(Literally how? Its not perfect but its fine.)
@@GDubA Personally, I think Forces is overall a solid, decently fun game with instances of greatness and instances of mediocrity.
06 is through and through a genuinely awful experience with a number of good moments that can be counted on one hand. I genuinely believe that 06 was terrible in everything it set out to do. And that gets under my skin. Hardly a SINGLE redeeming factor...
Yeah makes sense, I mean a bad game is a game that is poorly made with little to no quality, and while Forces has some low presentation, it still is mid really, not downright offensive, whereas 06 aimed higher but managed to be the complete opposite, in reality. But it had great ambition, but was 'bad' despite that. I do still think both games are overhated. Also, metacritic scores don’t always say everything about the product, and after all, I guess we should be thankful p06 even exists. Not that the game would have been that good if it wasn’t rushed. There is also this stigma where in the 2000s and onwards, people started blindly hating on Sonic, where the nostalgia cycle took place, and now people are starting to defend those games, so that didn’t help matters either. But I think we are now starting to see that positive end of that cycle, where sega starts listening to our feedback on how that era of sonic was great with sonic x shadow generations, and we have now entered that negativity since the meta era ended.
So yeah, if you actually want to play a game that doesn't break, go for mid, unless you love breaking things! Then it's ok to like a bad game.
A similar comparison I guess would be Heroes vs Rise of Lyric, or at least the patched version. Except that one of them isn't a Sonic game! So I guess the comparison isn't as fair!
Forces at least takes less than an afternoon to sit through. You get nothing from the experience, but at least it is done quickly.
Exactly
I personally think the fanbase becoming more and more attached to "bad but ambitious" games is simply the result of them being more interesting to talk and think about by the people who still care long after the release window.
The further you get from any media release, the more insular an audience discussing it is, and they are thinking about it more than experiencing it (plus when they do, they know what to expect and when to expect it). In this situation the experience itself fades into the background while the ideas and emotions become more memorable. What the game/movie/music *is* becomes almost abstract, and the discussion starts becoming about what it *represents* .
A good example is the Star Wars prequels, where the fanbase can focus in on the the grand concepts and details (especially as they add in context from external media like the cartoon), while a first time watcher will still be smacked in the face by the dialogue, pacing, tone, lack of focus etc.
Personally, it seems like its a difference between game design principles and experiencing the game. The using the idea of "playing a game as intended to determine how good it is" (game design principles) as a handicap for the enjoyment of 06 (experiencing the game) seems silly when evaluating the game. For example, in SA1, neither the infinite spindash (no cooldown) nor the brokenness of Tails were "intended," but both add value to the game's fun. Playing Sonic Adventure 1 straightforwardly (without abusing these mechanics) is substantially less fun.
I play games for fun, and if I can generate that fun, whether intended or not (death of the author), I'd rather do that than not have fun at all. I really couldn't care less about what the developers intended when discussing how fun a game is to play. Personally, I don't see the point of a "nothing-burger" if you can't even generate fun by laughing at it.
4:24 idk people just different opinions, it’s not hard to see why so many just perfer 06 , although I agree that most of those people have not played 06, cuase 80% of those people would rather play forces cuase it’s short asf
Should've mentioned how Boom Rise of Lyric is better than Heroes
True!
IV only ever played the Rise of Lyric demo. So I can't say for sure personally. But I have to agree that Heroes ain't good. Which sucks since I reaally wanted to love it...
I’m a little idiot so I like bad games more because I like to laugh at them and make my own fun while boring games there isn’t much to laugh at it’s good enough to work but not good enough to be amazing
You know what fair enough 💀
I would rather play a game that has tons of ambition, experimentation, new concepts, storylines and characters but lacks polish and is extremely buggy, to a game that plays it safe, tries nothing new, is boring to play but is very polished and has good graphics. Because, if there's no substance in a game, I would rather just play an actually good game, but if there's tons of love, ambition, experimentation put into a game, it might be worth experiencing even if it is rage inducing.
Ambition and potential and whatnot means absolutely nothing when the end product is so atrociously bad that it drives you away from it all. And the story doesn't mean much in a game since you could just watch the cutscenes and never touch the actual game ever.
‘06 is way worse than Forces. Change my mind comments 🗣️
Great video GDub!
Well yeah no one’s disagreeing with that , forces actually functions
You would be shocked how many disagree.
Thank you my brodie 🍁🍁🍁
@@naitsabes6222 oh i'm disagreeing with that hella HARD im tired of everyone using the defense
AT LEaST ForCES WoRKS!1!!! cause 06 functioned for me plus I only ran into 3 glitches my entire playthrough so the game is far from unplayable
but anyways
06 has:
better story (its not that good but it sure is better than forces)
better stages
better level design
better characterization
better soundtrack
better voice cast
variety & core gameplay consistency
intertwining stories that serve a major purpose outside of mainly being different povs
good boss design and boss fights themselves
and probably more reasons I can't think of right now
the fact that ppl hate 06 but consider forces to just be mid or mediocre is FUCKING insane
@@40kkidlock18 bro got so worked up lol