Why This NASA Battery May Be The Future of Energy Storage
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- Is this the perfect battery? Go to brilliant.org/Undecided/ and get 20% off your subscription and a 30 day free trial with Brilliant.org! What do you do if a satellite runs out of batteries? It’s prohibitively expensive to send a team into orbit and pop in some new AAs, and as a result many satellites use very efficient, reliable and long-lived nickel-hydrogen batteries. We’re talking about batteries that last decades. That sounds like the sort of battery that could revolutionize grid-scale energy storage and really help out renewables back here on Earth, which is why EnerVenue is backing nickel hydrogen batteries as the next step forward! But if batteries rugged and powerful enough for spacecraft already exist, then why haven’t we used it back here on Earth until now?
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Are Nickel-Hydrogen Batteries the future of energy storage? Go to brilliant.org/Undecided/ and get 20% off your subscription and a 30 day free trial with Brilliant.org!
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I gave a presentation on nickle-hydrogen stationary storage for solar for a class assignment as a young mechanical engineering student in college in 33 years ago.
Material science is so exciting considering the new construction methods of catalysts and AI. The biggest advances in the future will come from AI developments and if mankind can keep from killing itself, we have a bright future. Or it could be like Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut.
I would like a price comparison of wh/kg for this tech and redox flow battery or the other rust batteries? If the size is not a concern I would think flow batteries would scale much better and not require Platinum or palladium. Also compressing Hydrogen makes these batteries only 60% efficient due to the energy needed to super cool hydrogen or running a compressor to push the psi to a 5000 psi level. liquid flow batteries are closer to 80-90% efficient. I like the options being tried but can't we just scale up something that already checks the boxes for grid storage and doesn't use precious metals.
Oh great. A new battery that has less energy density, and is more heavy. This battery, the Future of energy storage? Maybe for large buildings only. "Somebody shot it with a rifle and it didn't explode"... Somehow I doubt this, how could it not explode and not even have any fragments exited out? Sounds impossible
@UndecidedMF Around 5:08, the video and sound go out of sync.
For the record, 1,500 psi tanks are not that high pressure. I've worked directly with 15,000 psi tanks and know of 32,000 psi tanks in regular usage. There are also specialty tanks at even higher pressures.
The SCUBA tanks in my closet are at 3000 psi.
Look it up, those sorts of pressure tanks appear to be pretty standard industrial gear. The expense is probably in getting the tanks as light as possible for space applications.
Yeah, even just a regular old SCUBA tank is between 3,000 and 4,000 PSI, depending on the type of tank.
True. Average oxygen or argon cylinder for welding holds 4300psi. As a person using the metric system 1500psi sounded like alot at first until i converted it to bars xD
Correct. Paintball air tanks are 4500 psi. So 1500 isn't much at all
One side benefit that would come from these being used for mass grid storage, would be the lithium not used by the grid, freeing it up for other uses.
Thats a VERY good point, which would make the transformation to only electric Vehicles that much faster
There are over 20 alternatives to lithium batteries for grid-scale energy storage from mechanical to chemical, just got to pick whatever makes the most sense for a given location. More options rarely hurts. Betting everything on a single tech is usually a bad idea in the first place.
Other major benefits of nickel hydrogen batteries: The hydrogen can be produced right from the excess wind and solar power when the batteries are not in use and the hydrogen compressed using that same excess energy. If we can get people to switch to electric cars we would not need platinum for catalytic converters so there would be more for these batteries.
And, to further your point, the world won't have to be beholden to the likes of China who are trying to dominate the lithium market. Let's leave China holding the bag on that one.
While I'm not nominally anti-EV, I still don't believe EVs can replace all our road transport and we really should be focusing more on developing biofuels and electric long-distance freight trains. But, alas, Elon's S3XY antics draw in the investor money...
With so many grid scale battery technology videos you've made, could you create a video where you summarize and follow up on their deployment (or lack of)?
That video would mostly be "They still promise to deliver X, just 5 years later" - as with nearly every ""groundbreaking"" wishfulthinking he is talking about.
Most of these technologies saw no deployment at all, so it would be quite hard. Unfortunately all these technologies have mayor drawbacks or are simply expensive in one way or another. There is also some potential left in Li-ion technology to juice out, so even with decent research interest, money doesn't follow.
Most of them were just press releases reformatted into a video. There rarely is any actual breakthroughs and most of the tech is just an iterative improvement or has glaring issues that other youtubers have pointed out.
I think he means well but if he ever gets something right it's buy accident lol.
For reference the capacity of these batteries is about 20% of currently available lithium ion batteries. The next generation that LG, Tesla, Panasonic, etc is gearing up for will be even worse.
Would love to see real, firm numbers on these : cost per kwh, infrastructure required to host (the battery arrays are HUGE vs lithium ion), self discharge and mitigation issues, and so on.
Theres no free lunch, and there's a reason these have been looked over for so long.
I like lithium batteries because they pop in my mouth
$2 billion/MW hr is the cost
I'm not a huge fan on compressed hydrogen in my pocket regardless.
@@shelbyseitzinger927 Nobody is suggesting using these for portable power.
@@Keenath I am, I want more canister and cartridge tech, the future should look dope
It amazes me that so many technologies we use today were largely created or perfected over 50 years ago
It's called the invention secrecy act of 1954.
@@wyattnoise The Invention Secrecy Act (1951) applies to technology that represents a national security threat. In the last 5 years, there have been 366 new secrecy orders. However, none of them were from NASA. NASA tends to be much more open about its patents and in many cases will license their use or even release them to the public domain. In 2016, they released over 50 patents to the public domain.
It's not often talked about but innovation has been stifled by "profiteering" over the last 50 years
Men were smarter back then.
@@wyattnoise Patents a factor in use limitations, too?
This is the first battery tech I have ever heard of that actually seems to solve the problems with grid scale energy storage aside from water/gravity storage.
Redox flow is another. But it uses large amounts of Vanadium, which is not currently mass produced
There are non vanadium redox flow options but all the ones I know of have other major issues like highly disimillar chemicals in each tank making mixing in the flow units an issue.
There are also carbon salt options but they have issues as well.
@@brianzmek7272 We should get Matt to make another video.
@@brianzmek7272 As someone who works with molten salts almost daily at work, I'll tell you that sending salts through pipes and pumps sucks. lots of issues, lots maintenance, and if you loose flow/temp, then all your lines salt out and you have to melt it out everywhere and start over.
Actually sounds safer and be able to be used anywhere when compared to pumped hydro storage. See Tom Salk Mountain dam failure some years ago in Missouri. Not every place has the elevation needed for that either.
I'm 16 and I'm working on getting a Nasa internship next summer & I am trying to also get into MIT. I want to study Chemical engineering and Renewable energy research to go into a line of work focusing on things like this. I'm happy to see this video because it's just confirming my interests and making me more excited for this career.
Be True...Assume Nothing..
I had fun learning the basics in technical school ..1980s..
Don't Lie .Steal or Cheat..
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@@finddeniro Thanks, Weird Uncle.
did you get that internship?
@@Svevid sadly no, my 4 AP classes have me constantly procrastinating and it's been rly busy. I am doing an early college program with a local science and technology college, and a summer internship with the same college. The NASA internships were either too far to go to in person or 100% online which is not appealing to me at all. Thanks for asking though.
@@joshiwoshiluz I get it, Had the procrastinating issue myself. Best of luck on your endeavors anyways. life leads you sometimes to places that you're thankfull for later on :)
FYI, the air-conditioning unit on your home typically utilizes 250 - 500psi. 1500 is alot but compared to what we already use, maybe not so much.
I use 3500 psi argon bottles daily, it's not that dangerous if you know what you're doing
I think it depends on the context of the application of these. Sure, you'll be using a big argon tank for welding, but also, you use propane tanks for your grill... I think as long as it's contained properly, you should be good.
Carbon fiber air tanks for paintball are rated for 4500 psi. 1500 is not a lot and can easily be worked with.
Hydrogen is not your typical application gas, the small molecular size makes it prone to find any micro crack in a container to leak out.
@@SuperBlackReality likewise.
These nickel hydrogen batteries have all the benefits of durability, but they suffer from high self discharge and low voltage. Got to play with a few of them made by Space Data corporation. The cool thing about them is that they can take overcharging well, highly recommended for mission-critical solar use. They contain lots of platinum and palladium, but they do show up at surplus auctions occasionally confused with high voltage components.
these aspects were completely and strangely missing from the vid
The fast self-discharge rate of 80% per month I found on a random website works out to 1.3% per half day. Grid scale battery storage is supposed to be used overnight when the sun isn't shining, so maybe it isn't such a big deal when used alongside solar?
But weren`t they supposed to last 30 years in a spacecraft, how can they have that quick self-discharge
@@thydimov9909 because they are being recharged by solar panels.
@@jonny4233Great point
I worked at the company that made all the Ni-H2 batteries for the NASA projects you mentioned (ISS, Mars rovers, Hubble). Several years ago, that entire department shut down. They no longer build those batteries at all. The Space division is now Li-ion exclusively.
How come? If the H2 version seems superior?
Cost, primarily, but also weight. Li-ion weighs less for the required amp-hours compared to Ni-H2. Weight matters a lot, because it directly impacts launch costs.
@@Streamcatcher It is not superior in most regards, particularly for aircraft and spaceflight applications, it is heavier for a given capacity.
So how do li-ion cells cope with extremes of freezing-cold to very hot temperatures in space?
Paul G
It varies with the satellite and its mission/orbit. Some of them insulate the batteries and place them strategically. Others have temperature control systems (which must use some of the battery capacity to operate).
Once again a clear logical explanation of technological advancement where the catalyst chemicals will bring down cost. Matt has outlined a good number of positive aspects that are key in battery functionality over a 30 year life span. In a battery that is completely recyclable. A catalyst will be found that cuts cost further once it is proven.
Just started following your channel and podcast and really enjoying the content. I'm interested in a review of home scale battery systems in development. My family and I live off grid and would like to know what might be available in the future when it comes time to replace our lithium banks. Cheers and keep up the good work.
I'm glad to see that not everyone is pursuing lithium, other chemistries need to be explored to see where they can be used. I see enormous potential to combine these with renewables to store the excess energy and to make renewables more reliable.
Sodium-Ion has been touted as an alternative to lithium-ion in EVs, which is good.
And they’re pretty close - already being used in EVs
@@Trifler500 Definitely. Also iron air batteries is a great alternative. Energy density doesn’t matter as much since it’s for storage.
Dual carbon batteries have been invented and are used by japan's military. They're 400x as energy dense as lithium.
That's a giant misnomer.
Having adequate storage doesn't make renewables more reliable at all.
It just means that power unused during peak generation doesn't get wasted.
If there is minimal output (low wind/solar) and a high draw from the grid then no amount of storage is going to help with that.
This is one of the fundamental problems with renewables sadly.
It means that you need to rely on multi area power distribution like international HVDC power lines in order to take advantage of when other countries have low draw, but high storage.
Having worked with High Vacuum systems in the past, our biggest problem was from Hydrogen flowing through the steel walls of the containers. The vacuum chambers were fabricated from thick steel with a longitudinal grain and liquid nitrogen cooling to minimise the flow of hydrogen atoms from the steel. At the sort of pressures you mention here, isn't there significant long-term pressure loss through the walls of the containment vessels?
You think a guy running a fantasy "science" channel would answer your critical questions?
Exactly. This dude is deceptive at best. Many of the things shown here are hilarious, remember the "CD's" hydrogen storage discs to power your car? Best laugh I'd had until his hastily and shoddily made pseudo retraction/ it's not my fault I was duped I know nothing of science video came out shortly after.
Monel
Considering the batteries have been used in satellite upwards of 15 years, they at least hold out long enough to beat lithium ion batteries in terms of durability
That may explain why the pressure vessels look to be designed with valves on the ends, maybe some sort of "top up" required from time to time
ok. this is the ONLY battery video i've seen since batt's became a thing, that seems to really have nearterm potential available to the masses. very interesting and informative. thx.
Their secret recipe is likely proton-exchange membrane (PEM) also called polymer-electrolyte membrane. They're used in fuel cells to replace the platinum catalyst. I seem to recall Bollard Power Systems using them in fuel cells in the early 2000's.
This is probably the best battery alternative you’ve showcased. Mainly because of safety, recycling, and longevity. I hope it takes off.
This guy has numerous videos from years ago with "X is going to change the world forever", yet years later nothing happened. Its such clickbait low effort time wasting content. Guy has no insight into any of this tech and is just parroting articles.
@@thepunisherxxx6804 are you new here?
Do you not know how these things actually get researched and come to market?
L.T.O HAS THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS
@@GammaRays10 You're putting way too much faith in a pop sci content at the end of a long ass retelling chain from the source material being infallible. Or in the source material being infallible for that matter. I hardly think that a catalytic material that doesn't includes extremely expensive rare earth minerals simply have escaped everyone's grasp for decades despite everyone's best efforts, until this guy showed up. So this to me smells like a particularly good snake oil pitch.
@@thepunisherxxx6804this is actually a real battery that actually exist just like solar panels used in space industry which are also very expensive! Why can’t we find other less expensive materials alternatives to make those batteries or solar panels more affordable and mass producable on earth!?
The lack of dendrites is by far the biggest advantage of these batteries, the impact on longevity can't be overstated. I wonder how many would be required to achieve home scale storage and how much increasing the pressure would help or hinder storage.
I was thinking the same thing. If economies of scale get the price down, these could be built into a spot under the garage floor, for instance. Accessible in 30 years, but otherwise out of site, out of mind, just doing their job. Products could get rid of transformers for converting AC to DC when the "local power grid" supplies DC directly.
@@darrinbrunner6429 Every home being able to generate and store its own energy, and maybe send excess power to those in need, is the dream. Energy independence for every home means energy independence for the country as a whole, and an end to the political pressure OPEC can put on us.
@@Voltaic_Fire you are correct: the problem is less economical and more political. There is no will on the part of the government for more R&D and investment.
@@darrinbrunner6429
Just to clarify terminology:
AC - Alternating current
DC - Direct current.
Transformer - Converts AC Power from one voltage to another. Still AC power at both ends. Transformers work only with AC power.
Inverter - Converts DC power to AC Power.
Rectifier - Converts AC power to DC Power.
Also, All main power grid distribution in the USA is in the form of Alternating Current. DC current is used primarily in small devices and motor vehicles, But is also generated by solar panels.
Edit:
I did some checking, and it seems that DC current is used for some of the longest stretches of high voltage transmission lines in the US power grid.
But AC is used for more local applications because of being able to utilize transformers to step the voltage up and down at the source and receiving ends of the grid.
@@Voltaic_Fire I've said it before. Energy storage, renewable energy and energy independence is a national security issue and should be treated as such with both time and money.
1) these are not really available for us to buy for our garage backup battery today
2) iron-air batteries are not yet available - but are being prototyped!
3) rust particles swimming in a benevolent electrolyte versus high pressure hydrogen - is it such a tough choice?
4) So, Matt - how about a Think where you compare these two technologies head-to-head on every criteria?
That would be domething to Think on, eh?
To be fair, NASA has been super great for innovation since it started (Velcro, space man food, space pens, ect)
Matt, this is one of your better videos. The fact that Enervenue is building a giga factory shows that this is not a pipe dream. Glad to see that the factory is in the US.
Anyone else tired of these "content creators" reading a reddit post and then presenting it like they know what they're talking about? This guy has numerous videos from years ago with "X is going to change the world forever", yet years later nothing happened. Its such clickbait low effort time wasting content. Guy has no insight into any of this tech and is just parroting articles.
I imagine the natural gas turbines used for peak load power generation are not particularly cheap to operate/maintain. Would be interesting to see where this technology currently matches up economically for such an application. Charge them during low usage hours when energy's cheap, and discharge during peak hours.
My dad used to work out Intelsat. Some really cool stories out of his experience there. The main building in D.C. has several atriums that were used in the filming of Star Wars scenes inside the Death Star (the catwalks without railing). Shame that it started going downhill some years ago, he jumped ship with early retirement before they got around to laying him off with the other senior staff. No idea how they are doing now.
The ISS's nickel-hydrogen batteries have since been replaced with Lithium-ion, because they were getting to the end of their life span and the Li batteries could store twice as much charge for the same mass.
And the ISS is coming down in 2028, so L ion will work ok up till then. Plus the ISS is so full, it couldn't fit any large arrays.
@@imho2278 its coming down? Then the earth will be destroyed!!
@@JoaquinElf lmfao
I think energy density is not the biggest problem for grid storages.
@@nicoleibundgut534 no, but high self discharge could be.
Great explanation about how the Nickel-Hydrogen batteries can be used in power storage. The hydrogen production part seems more easily managed than the need for Nickel, Platinum, and Palladium. The lack of maintenance is a important feature, and the low sensitivity to temperature is excellent!
One question that I have, is that if the catalyst composition is substituted for mass production, would these batteries still have a 30+ year lifespan?
Hi Matt, are there any estimates on the losses of hydrogen inside the battery due to diffusion of hydrogen through the material of the vessel? Wouldn’t the 1500 psi promote such diffusion? And would this loss not be considerable over the life span of the battery (approx. 30 years)?
There seems to be an audio desync around 5:06 (starting with "This stuff has to be handled responsibly."), but maybe its just me since I don't see other comments talking about it
I have it as well
Me too
If proven true, 83$ per kwh for this system vs the 312$ per kwh (2022) of stationary lithium ion storage is pretty compelling. 👍
Lithium is artificially high in price ATM. Demand....
Mind you, if they do use the catalyst shown in the video, Cobalt isn't exactly a controversy-free metal, either, and using it at grid scale could case severe price spikes.
@@stuart207 seems to me Li demand could multiply in just the next few years unless a real alternative hits the market.. EV's are just getting started
They wanted 30 k for I think three batteries for my house when I got solar so we didn't get them and are going to wait till prices or technologies change
Those pictures with dozens and dozens of buildings housing batteries is something I didn't even know, or could even imagine, existed.
These people that invented these type of life changing inventions, should be recognised and praised. Instead of doing it to some actor or sport personality that has done nothing to help humanity.
These are the real heroes of our world.
In terms of pressurized containers, 1500 psi is about the lowest level on consumer scale products. Any old scuba tank or other regular pressurized cannisters for various use are often double or triple that pressure level, and are produced in bulk for cheap.
In terms of hydrogen production, massive strides are taken in producing green hydrogen (using renewable energy to produce hydrogen electrolysis and storage), and this infrastructure is being built at an international grid scale. It's expensive and hard to come by now at these quantities, but it's changing.
This is true, however, it’s important to note that hydrogen makes metals brittle, and so storing hydrogen at high-pressure is quite different than storing an oxygen nitrogen mix at high pressure. So I would say 1500 bars for hydrogen is quite high.
Edit i meant 1500 psi not bars lol
@@FreekHoekstraYeah, considering that 1500 bar is 21,750psi.
1 Bar=14.5psi
Producing hydrogen by electrolysis is quite inefficient because for 2 kg of hydrogen 16 kg of oxygen is also produced and production of oxygen needs greater energy (very high overpotential for oxygen) and the market for oxygen is rather saturated.
@@janami-dharmam Medical-grade oxygen shortages were widespread around the world (India and Indonesia, for acute examples) during peak of COVID-19 pandemic.
@@janami-dharmamunlike in fuel cells the hydrogen in this battery is not consumed so the source of the hydrogen isn't terribly important.
This plant is 3 miles from where I live. Been excited to see it happen
My big question though is why we can't use capacitors for grid-scale energy storage. Yes, they discharge over time, but the grid won't require long-term storage and the losses within 24 hours are small enough to be ignored in the equation. After 30 years, they'll still hold 100% of capacity if they are kept in a clean environment.
Sounds interesting. Another candidate is iron superoxide flow cells, though the NiH would be nice in the middle of the Mojave desert, say - no water. The catalyst is super shiny. Pt, Pd work by dissociating the hydrogen gas into individual protons, which then pass through the metal to react with the anode material, in this case the nickel. This ability of Pt/Pd to dissociate the H2 into 2H is crucial for this sort of thing to work. If their tech uses base metals as described in the video, this could be pretty big in a number of applications, depending on the material's properties.
I have been reading about "new" battery technologies since the early 2000's. All of them sound great until they get to the part where they describe the fatal flaw that keeps them from widespread adoption. As this is an "old" technology being adapted to a new use, I'm hoping that this is a real product and not another battery technology that stays mostly in the lab.
One of the biggest stumbling blocks is how can utilities monetize the tech. Legacy utility companies have a vested interest in keeping power expensive. Seems like their lobbyists keep too much "in the lab".
@@markpashia7067 "Legacy utility companies have a vested interest in keeping power expensive"
This is true... but they can keep the cost to consumer high whilst reducing the cost of demand for rare elements and reducing the cost of maintenance.
That said. Batteries are one of the most understood areas of power storage. There's no miracle battery. (at least not like some people are hoping for)
@@markpashia7067 BS.
Utility companies would LOVE a way to store and release electricity with a push of a button.
@@markpashia7067 Thats not true they can make more money buy saving money your just hating to hate
That is great news. More ways of storing energy is needed. The closer to the source the better.
Yes bu it's also his 50th video of yet another battery technology that is yet again revolutionary and yet again will change everything.
I've been reading about these since 2000. And the only one that changed anything was Lithium Ion that was in use back in 2000 as well.
@@Mew178 Frfr there was the vandanium redox, solid state, sulphur, hydro batteries, air batteries 😭 I can’t actually tell which battery is the best cause of this dude hyping up ever old or new thing
@@Mew178 The boy who cried battery?
@@earthenscience Ahahahaha good way to put it
@@Mew178 the fact that this one has a gigafactory set to open in 2024 makes it different. Nobody opens a factory that size without pre-orders from customers so this technology will be used in some application, probably many. Hopefully there will be a follow up to let viewers know where and how they get deployed.
Also, he has videos on sodium ion batteries which are now being used in vehicles, produced by CATL which is the largest EV battery manufacturer in the world, so although perhaps many of the technologies don’t become commercially viable, others do. Probably part of the reason he calls the channel “Undecided”.
If they're that expensive, the price of security will have to be included in the total cost of ownership. Would be interesting to compare them to low-density salt batteries.
IMO... If you have a shipping crate full of these and bury it for 30 years under your solar grid , that may mitigate any potential "security issues".
Interesting combo: run a solar powered hydrolysis plant, sell the hydrogen to your battery manufacturer, and sell the oxygen to the steel manufacturer that makes the battery tanks
I'm remember designing portable devices that used Ni-Cd and NiMH batteries back in the mid to late 1990s as an EE working for a point-of-sale company. Once the Lithium cell came out, it trounced them in energy density and didn't seem to have the memory effect that was common with partial discharge cycles using Ni-Cd or Ni-MH.
Li-ion batteries are great for energy density, lack of memory effect, and ability to sustain very high discharge rates, but their flammability is a problem...
As far as I know only Ni-Cd has the memory effect. Which was a huge problem with them. Ni-MH don't suffer from that. Their big disadvantage is that they self discharge rather quickly. Refrigerating them does slow down that effect.
@@emuhill theres new low self discharge NIMH batteries that are not too far off from lithium ION.
Still a fair choice for lower cost. and in variety of voltage outputs by having different number of cells in series.
also the form factor.
They also win in safety. not easy to puncture. and generally don't explode if abused.
My alkaline AA batteries in my electronic scale finally gave up, after 2 years. The scale turns on, when you step on it, then times out to save batteries. When I replaced with AA NiMH, the batteries die after 2 days. They recharge in 5 minutes, however. What gives?
A dutch company has developed a nickel / iron battery that produces hydrogen when it's fully charged, providing long term storage in the form of hydrogen and easy to switch on or off compared to traditional electrolyzers. Very nice concept, based on the Edison battery. The product has a cheesy name: Battolyser.
There's a lot of movement / momentum for all these battery startups and innovations. Hope this kind of energy storage really takes off the coming years.
_"The product has a cheesy name: Battolyser"_
Sounds like something Batman would use. "Quick, Robin - to the Battolyser!"
this is really attractive because high temp electrolysers can also act as fuel cells on reverse.
It’s Dutch, of course it has a cheesy name.
Right, it makes sense that hydrogen cells would be good against bursting to flames when pierced because the hydrogen inside would also rapidly cool itself as it expands from such high pressure.
No - H2 has a negative Joule-Thomson coefficient and counterintuitively heats up as is it expands. But it won't generate sufficient heat to auto-ignite in air, unless a catalyst is present (um, like platinum). But this tech is basically a mashup of a metal hydride hydrogen storage tank and a fuel cell, neither of which has yet to go big, the economics and logistics aren't working. The main problem is hydrogen is mainly derived from petroleum, so it's still a fossil fuel.
I'm still convinced the Ambri liquid metal battery is the grid storage solution we need. Cost competitive with lithium ion isn't good enough. Needs to be cost competitive with pumped hydro
Hydro takes a moment to start running. You still need something that can give you that instantaneous energy until the hydro takes over.
One thing that was missing from the video is charge/discharge efficiency. It only has 85% efficiency, while lithium-ion has close to 100%. I think it still could be useful, but on longer cycle, with lithium ion used daily, and nickel hydrogen battery for a rainy day. Literally.
It would be great for you to mention how they contain hydrogen for years, as this is supposedly very difficult to do.
Your first closeup image is definitely not a battery. Why use that image?
The info on alternative cathode metals was very interesting.
Agree that 500-1500psi is not very high pressure. Many air conditioners as well as garden variety gas struts operate at these pressures.
Also, I’m very tired of hearing about the danger of hydrogen fires. Most of us drive around while sitting close to gasoline tanks and spark generating engines. This is far more dangerous than a sealed hydrogen system. Drive down any Arizona highway and you can see the roadside scars of innumerable gasoline car fires.
OK. That all sounds great but I see a few problems that were either not mentioned or glossed over:
1. Source of hydrogen. Sure, it's the most abundant element in the Universe, but it's not freely available on Earth (0. 00005 % of the atmosphere). You will have to extract it from something or break apart water to obtain enough for the worldwide use of these types of batteries. That requires energy.
2. I assume these are rechargeable batteries. If every car in the US were on batteries (doesn't matter what kind), there is not enough power on the grid to charge them all. Tens of thousands (maybe more) of new power stations would have to be built to provide enough energy to charge all these batteries. Where is the power/energy for those stations coming from? Renewables won't be enough. The only non-fossil fuel option is nuclear.
3. You made no mention of weight/efficiency. Those "SCUBA containers" will need to be made of very heavy metals that can withstand thousands of PSI. That alone decreases the efficiency (thing gallons/mile equivalents) and will require even more energy over fossil fuels or even current Li-ion batteries which are much lighter.
This tech is a great step forward, but it won't replace hydrocarbon fuels anytime soon.
As always Matt, your videos are the finest across the entire UA-cam collection.
I thought hydrogen gas was almost impossible to keep in a container, as it leaks from almost everything?
From my understanding, in layman terms, it must “leak”, as it crosses to the other electrode, it reacts with the catalyst producing electricity in the process. The hydrogen is surrounded by all sides by the nickel component so it should be okay
Interesting. As far as non noble metal catalysts go, the huge advantage in a closed system like a battery is that you limit exposure. There was a problem with using novel materials in fuel cells in that the catalysts would be poisoned by exposure to external elements, which were common.
Loving the video. I'd add that a ton of the challenges of higher pressure vessels that we'd often be afraid of are resolved using metal hydride to increase density for a given space, reducing structural requirements, improving safety, etc.
They add cost but that's up-front and you're still not worrying about replacing these batteries anytime soon and it sounds like it'd be more of a standard design over using the current existing metal hydride-adjacent plates.
As for what's been put into the battery as a catalyst similar to fuel cells using platinum, there was something that was developed a bit over a year ago. iron sandwiched in thin wafers of graphene. the graphene is easy enough to make at that scale as its a natural formation and you're not using it for its strength. Some students and researchers discovered it and were hired on directly from their lab after they showed how viable the idea was. Anyway, this composite catalyst approach uses some of the most abundant resources on this planet in super tiny quantities and the entire process relies on refining the materials just right within known methods.
What's better is that this catalyst replacement works on par with platinum as a non-wear component.
"up front cost" is something that would be made up for in a weeks worth of sales, but in practice, private companies use the excuse to somehow justify a permanent high price tag.. because bootlickers will believe just about anything the rich tell them
Seems like the battery has quite the potential, especially if it can also be scaled smaller, not just upscaled.
no. Smaller applications you need higher energy density. Li-Ion are vastly superior. That's why most spacecraft have moved away from this to Li-Ion. Even with the downsides, the higher energy density is worth the costs of mitigating those downsides. The advantage of this is not it's performance. We already have better performing batteries the potential advantage of this is it's ability to be scaled up much cheaper and easier.
For a guy who's 'undecided' you sure do hype up EVERY tech innovation you come across
He can't decide what deserves the most hype!
But for real though, it's nice learning about new *potential* developments. Just gotta take the claims and speculation with a healthy dose of skepticism.
I think people are finally starting to get sick of the hyperbole marketing
Most People want to "believe". So to get the clicks, people need to be given a very shiny hook of a title. But the content is very fact based and critical.
@@altGoolam I'd say the title is very good but the content is very uncritical. Mostly praise instead of insight
😂😂 you are right.
His every video is game changer technology.
Audio sync issues start at 5:08 - you may want to re-upload
I'm NOT saying these are show stoppers, but:
1.) Nickel, platinum & palladium are relatively expensive materials.
2.) Pressurized hydrogen is difficult to contain. It's able to leak through seals & even solid metals more readily than any other gas (except He). But we've had a lot of experience with hydrogen containment from the space program.
BTW, 1,500 psi is not a super high pressure. For comparison, the bailout oxygen seat bottles on fighter aircraft run about 3,500 psi.
There's a device called a pelteir junction, has been used in satellites for decades. Old technology, but effective. The difficult part, is dissipating heat. With no air to carry it away. One other thing, batteries don't store electricity, only capacitors can do that.
Something people should keep in mind with that pressure number is that this is a nickel-hydrogen battery, not a hydrogen in a nickel tank battery. Under the right conditions (these), hydrogen basically forms an alloy with metals just like lithium would. Hydrogen metal on its own is a different story, but under high pressure you can kind of get a hydrogen metal alloy. Piercing the container can't be explosive then because the hydrogen still needs to move out of its metal structure to escape the container, which can't happen instantly.
does not long term (as in years) cause hydrogen embrittlement from leaking hydrogen in any pressurized tank?
@@vultureTX001 The trick is that there isn't actually much free hydrogen in the tank. It's all tied up in the nickel metal structure, because the alloy is stable at that pressure.
@@clockssugars5074 Ok Thanks thanks that makes sense, I remember how much GE's SQUIDs had with helium leaks and even given the ( noble vs non)nature of the two still remembered gas storage issues
@@vultureTX001 Hydrogen emprittlement isn't a problem in most hydrogen gas systems, it's the mechanical connections, since hydrogen is the smallest atom, it can leak through the smallest gaps. Anything that is bolted together, along with valves becomes a issue long before diffusion comes into play.
Prof Cui - Is a battery tech legend!! glad to see him given some attention. He has so many papers that could change how we store energy. He worked with Samsung on their Note7 fiasco.
I'm going to be that guy. We go through such great lengths to solve solutions to problems caused due to not understanding the technology we have. Kyle Hill did a great video showing that in the history of nuclear power it remains the safest source of energy to date. Per tera watt hour produced, coal kills 100,000, solar kills 440, wind kills 150, and nuclear kills 90. The nuclear disasters still remain some of the most televised and exaugurated incidents in history. Had we invested in nuclear we may not even have a global warming issue. So why are we still stuck in this mindset? Do you know the advancements in nuclear in recent years?
*Nickel-iron batteries also last decades* and can be rejuvenated after that time.
Matt, thank you for your informative and entertaining mini-tech news briefs.
Thanks for watching!
@@UndecidedMF I'd usually troll you but you did a good job on this one. You are still "defending" the suppression the elitist did with the nickel hydrogen battery technology, among other technologies, as if they couldn't have gave us the tech in the 70s. Yes they could have and YOU KNOW IT...
Nickel hydrogen lenr reactors are also being suppressed. Look up the Brillouin Energy nickel Hydrogen Hot Tube reactor. 100% REAL VERIFIED TECHNOLOGY...you need to understand this.
...H-Cat ☢ 4 Life...
@@UndecidedMF I even plugged 🔌 you on my community tab, very rare for me to do as a esoteric hydrogen technologies researcher.
"Just look at the sun." Only with appropriate protective eyewear!
If you could get the cost of a 10kwh battery down to 1000 dollars and it have the ability to use 100% of the capacity like Lithium you would find a lot of solar people buying massiver battery banks. 10k would get you a really big battery bank and with 30k cycles at 86% capacity, We are talking life time battery for most people. This would make buying and charging an EV, buying solar well worth the effort.
battery cost is one of the down sides of solar.
Volume and density absolutely matter for storage. Unless those batteries are getting manufactured on site, they need to get shipped to the location and installed. The more you have to shift and the harder it is to install, the more expensive it'll be.
Shipping containers with a matrix of these things could be shipped conventionally and used nearly as-is. Just like other utility scale batteries. Perfect for large installations.
@@edeaglehouse2221 I wasn't saying that wouldn't work. I was just commenting on how he said it doesn't really matter at around 4:20
If you have to ship twice as many containers for the same amount of capacity, it will need to be considerably cheaper than alternatives to remain cost competitive.
Edit: and that was strictly speaking to the energy denisty per kg. Hydrogen is the lowest density element so these are going to be considerably bulkier than something like lithium ion...
Great video, and I'm hoping this takes off! Am I the only one who sees a severe audio/video desync though?
Yeah, it starts around the 5 minute mark.
Don’t see it.
Yes audio and video were out of sync.
Nope, perfect all the way through for me.
How’s the new home coming along? Would love to see more about it and the decisions you made!
This is the 200th battery revolution that ive heard about
damn, Nasa figured out the battery tech i wanted 50 years ago
The version of Nick-Hydrogen batteries you can buy is Nikel-Metal Hydride (NiMH). Typically rated to -2OC, but you need to charge them above freezing (just like Li-ion batteries) to avoid damage.
Edit: Edit I believe they can discharge at up to 3C.
This sounds promising, thanks for continuing to educate us on emerging and re-emerging energy storage technology.
The main problem with these is the energy density, at about 1/10th that of lithium cells. They would probably work for grid storage but you would need massive facilities for the cells using this tech to store enough energy to be worth it. Take a look at Tela's 3MWh grid storage units they are pretty big and you would need a unit 10 times that size to store the same energy using NiH2.
Not 1/10th. He said in the video Li are 260-300Wh/kg, Ni-H are 140Wh/kg, so about 1/2, not 1/10.
For 20-30 years we see some new, innovative, ground-breaking and super efficient batteries almost every month. Well, this is one of them. That's all.
The alternate catalyst should work for hydrogen fuel cells as well. And a hydrogen fuel cell scrubber on the Edison Nickel Iron battery overcomes one of the major drawbacks of that chemistry.
This was genuinely exciting to hear, great job!
I live approximately 19 miles from the new EnerVenue factories in the picture, Which are located in Shelbyville, Kentucky.
I have been passionately telling people for years that Hydrogen is not only the future of the electrical storage industry. But the gas-powered vehicle industry as well. I hope to get a job at the new factory when it opens next year.
The bigger problem with batteries is the consumer product rechargeable batteries. They need to be designed to be much safer and last way longer than they last today. Some devises have replaceable batteries which helps keep the devise in service longer. This does not deal with the problems with the batteries themself. Almost all of them end up in the trash and often end up in land fill making them environmentally bad. And if the battery is built in a devise, when the battery fails, the devise becomes trash.
The energy densities are in best case scenario, as you use the batteries the nickel hydrogen battery will outperform lithium, in Maintenace costs, and operational life. Not counting for the pressure vessel (not sure what it is made out of), nickel hydrogen battery has nothing in it that is toxic, or at least not as toxic as lithium.
They are probably made out of steel like most compressed gas containers.
This sounds like a very much better idea than lithium for a home energy storage solution.
Ah yes, high pressure hydrogen gas. What could go wrong 😅😅😅😅
I know you said these batteries are less energy dense so you can scale size, but do they charge and discharge faster or slower than lithium ion? What’s the comparitve efficiency of the conversion? If you suddenly got more wind, or a sunnier spot, capturing more of that energy faster would be ideal. Similarly, being able to instantly meet the needs of a sudden energy drain on the grid would be useful.
For years I thought about energy production and storage once I'd became a home owner. I bought a home heated by wood and pellet, at least, for now. Burning things in stoves are not efficient so I plan to modify at least one of my stoves for it heats water, large amount of water, and then use this hot water into underfloor heating.
The idea comes from the fact stoves designed to heat water are existing and they improve the efficiency of the system plus the fact that 1.16W are necessary to heat 1L of 1°C. So 10°C in 1 cubing meter implies that a bit more than 10kW is stored. More than that in fact if the water container need to be heated too (like cement or stones).
Am I totally crazy? : )
Scuba tanks (recreational) start the dive at 3000 PSI (200 bar) in aluminum tanks, so this should not be a big deal. Though embrittlement might be an issue with the H2 and some metal parts.
VERY promising for grid-scale applications! I'd hope to see it in TX as a 100hr back-up for a full neighborhood of 100 households!
A miniature version of one in the downtube of a mountain bike and it's good for 30 years. It could outlast 3-4 bikes.
wonder if the catalyst replacement can also be used not only for the battery, but for hydrogen fuel cells. That would also be a game changer.
Speaking of batteries, Matt I am overwhelmed by the number of companies vying for EV battery relevance. Companies like Amprius, Our Next Energy, Prologium, Quantumscape, Factorial Energy, Solid Power, CATL,SES, Cuberg, Ion storage systems, Natron, Tailan New Energy, Toyota, Samsung, etc. Could you do a video on the real contenders vs. the pretenders in EV battery technology? Thanks.
There are already “insanely high pressures “ in your car. The A/C system on the high pressure side can be 300psi. Your power steering can be 1500psi. Your brake lines can be also be up to 1500psi.
Grid storage alternatives would be great news but agree that all of this is highly speculative, especially the bit about the mysterious replacement for platinum.
Looks like a very possible battery option for many applications once they figure out the rare minerals reduction equation.
Enervenue has preliminary adds for home energy units too. That would be incredible to have a bank of 30 odd year batteries.
We have that now. Honestly, Li and LiFo batteries will do 30+ years with no problem if they’re taken care of.
I am a huge fan of Lithium Titanate batterys. They use rar elements and sadly have a poor energy density around 70-80 wh/kg but besides that they have an extremly huge cycle life of around 30'000 almost no thermal runaway and you can charge and discharge safely at 10c.
The most efficient batteries use a very small amount of lithium that's actually a good thing Lithium mining and refining is terrible for the local eco systems.
And I'm a fan of pumped-storage hydro. There is no such thing as cycles, and the whole setup can provide many other services and utilities.
@@igelbofh What other service can it offer? I think its pretty great with around 80% efficiency. Otherwise it costs alot money to build and there are also service and operation costs.
@@nicoleibundgut534 It can provide irrigation water and flood control, especially on eroded slopes where vegetation has been cut to make place for "green solar"
@@igelbofh How so? I can't really see how this would be.
It's crazy how much of modern science dates back to the 1960s that was truly a golden era
Cost. If it’s truly solved. It’s beautiful. I’m still excited to be using LiFeP04. I Just have to deal
W mostly cold temp issues. But the many charge cycles is great.
This new (old) battery would be great for our off grid desert and high mountain AI systems we have out there. Temperature is irritating challenge
Thanks for sharing
Do you have played with L.T.O or prismatic? They have longer cycle life and safer than lipo4
I have 5000kw/ hours of LiFeP04 in my van and 1300w of solar panels. Calculated I save 160kg compared to AGM led batteries + it has 4 times the lifetime of charging cycles.
"Look at the sun," in reference to H2 reactivity is a bit of bad science. Otherwise, I enjoy your content Matt.
Also: "Look at the sun" is generally a bad advice.
You mentioned several of the safety issues related to Lithium ION Batteries but some do not apply to the Lithium Iron Phosphate or do not apply so significantly. Seems the big blocker for NiH batteries is cost alone. I really hope Enervenue is wildly successful and adds to the Tech solutions available for truly massive grid storage expansion.
LiFePO batteries have an advantage in that they contain no cobalt and are more stable than other lithium chemistries but they aren't a magic solution. They have a lower peak current rating which isn't a huge issue but they also have lower energy density and can and do still go into thermal runaway.
LFP batteries reach thermal runaway at 400C which is much higher than Lion and lipo but the electrolyte still decomposes and releases HF and oxygen creating what is essentially an inextinguishable toxic fire. The electrolyte on it's own is still very toxic and will react with water to produce HF.
it amazes me that we still run on oil, coal, gas and nuclear energy.
Paul Pantone, Nikola Tesla, Dr. Andrija Puharich, Eugene Mallove, Stanley Meyer, Thomas Henry Moray, Brian O'Leary, Andrew Michrowski and so much more...
I remember reading a few articles back in 2000-2001 discussing the effectiveness of a copper-based catalyst for hydrogen fuel cell production and how it would revolutionize the way we store and transport energy. I wonder if Dr. Yi Cui's solution is related.
This is exciting! Thanks for sharing, Matt!
I have one of these metal hydride tanks... It's slightly larger than a roll of quarters that stores 20litera of hydrogen. Bought it about two decades ago while evaluating hydrogen fuel cells. It's pretty neat, but a simple LiIon battery is way cheaper and easier.
This is the point in space engineers where I would be building my first space miner
Nickel is needed for so many alloys and things. I think this would extremely affect the price.
You have no idea 😂
@@WeylandLabs so, sir, instead of puking arroung, give me an idea. But be aware, I have some decent skills. So you should maybe think twice before you post your kind of idea. If I can learn something I always listen. The choice is yours.