Rev. Tom Honey: How could God have allowed the tsunami?
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2007
- www.ted.com In the days following the tragic South Asian tsunami of 2004, the Rev. Tom Honey pondered the question, How could a loving God have done this? Here is his answer.
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I always cry when I watch this video.How much moral honesty and courage it required for Tom to make it?Bravo,Tom!
This is straight fax
I’m not religious, but this is still one of my favorite TED talks.
Bravo Honey! for expressing your concerns and being a part of the church. Too many are afraid to ask.
The doubt comes from reason, the faith from belief
The doubt shows us the mystery, the faith leads us to accept it
The doubt gnaws us, the faith soothes us
Only trust or ignorance allow us to live in peace with this "I don't know".
As far as I am concerned, I choose the trust and to live in peace.
It is comforting to know that others, even clergy, have doubts.
his voice, it's so awesome
Well hot damn, this man feels exactly as I do about god, the universe, all that is, etc.
Very touching talk. I did not expect this.
Hi, I have the subtitles in french for this video and tried to get this back on you tube in french, but I can't send in more than ten minutes of video...and I would really like the french people to understand...anyone can give me a tip on how to get this there? please???
I'm an atheist, but this guy's God is one I could consider. The all-good, all-powerful, all-knowing version is obviously inconsistent with the world as we find it, but the spirit of seeking and the forces which permeate the universe -- yeah, that wouldn't violate my sense of reality.
I'm sorry so many people were "bored" or so fixated on the traditional notion of God that they couldn't hear and consider what this man was saying, but I think it's worth pondering.
I have waited my whole life for these words from a Christian...I DON'T KNOW.
Excellent. Put people to think.
Reverend Tom Honey, Wow! I am on the fence with god, leaning towards "no faith". Your sincere questions have helped me to not be alone with my deep questions. I'm reading/studying your TED talk transcript like a good book! Thank you, for that... :-) ...1Cor.13
@abcd6841 "Condone"? Wow, what a nice word, thanks~!
Beautifully honest. Finally a theologian who objectively scrutinizes his beliefs, rather than apologizing (i.e. having arrived at the conclusion that god exists and desperately trying to reconcile logic with it)
I agree completely.
The scientific method does not preclude thought. Even philosophical thought. I think there are many who would argue that he used the mental exercises to derive his theory, not simply to rationalize them.
Excellent.............Thought
Why is it that I exist? Why is it that I can see my own reflection in the mirror, see through my eyes, and get to experience life at all? This does not compel me to believe in a deity, it compels me to wonder if this is the way existence works. There has to be one point at which one feels "I exist" while others think they are separate, but are not. That my existence was just one variation of one unit meant to live in the illusion that I am separate, and we don't know why... Yet.
I'm not the best at explaining this but if humans were not able to rise above mere sense perception-based thought we would not be able to think 'triangle';all our thought would be of a particular triangle:a scalene triangle,an equalateral triangle,a red one,but in order to think 'triangle' humans must have an ability of intellect to understand universals. It's a tough nut to crack,but thinking intellectually with universals sets humans apart from the material universe of other animals
an honest response from a struggling Christian. I wish all Christians would be so honest.
Brilliant.
"I disagree. I'd say - welcome on the road of agnosticism/skepticism"
Fair enough. That is indeed a better greeting...
Nothing could confirm my atheism more than this talk. If you assume that there is simply is no God, you have answered all of these questions in 2 seconds instead of wandering around them for 20 minutes.
***** because you have faith in science, while theists have faith in God. Neither rely on evidence because there is not enough evidence to prove either side.
+Dark What is believed to be true in the field of science is fundamentally based on evidence... that's the difference.
The science cant help you to live for ever. The science is made by god and you are studying his law. He made the gravity law you know and not newton.
Fahda Al G, that is an unnecessary assumption based on no evidence. Therefore, we dismiss it.
The real story that some tribes in that area that new those signs and run away from their near the sea houses to higher ground is a fact that this ancient ways of living still hold that passing knowledge and use it even if events only happen once every 2 or more centuries. For me it has nothing to do with god but the way we are evolving
The best thing to do is be good enough to get into heaven in case it exists... but enjoy life in case it doesn't.
I loved❤
Perhaps staying awake to the end would be helpful.
“I don’t know” the most profoundly religious statement of all.
This was beautiful
what a lovely and intelligent man. He questions everything rationally and decides he doesn't know - only one more step. Take god out of the equation. The problem with his take on things is that it is going to bore the audience. He just delivered everything that he possibly can in one sermon - why come back next week for more questions? I think he needs to become a scientist so he has something interesting to fill the gaps with. such a soothing voice would do evolutionary biology justice.
16:49 The phrase "rigid doctrines" apparently sounds very similar to the name of a famous english evolutionary biologist :)
'Not every immaterial idea is true'
So you concede the immateriality of ideas and the concept of truth. Your on my page after all...
"At least he said "I don't know"... welcome on the road to atheism."
I disagree.I'd say - "welcome on the road of agnosticism/skepticism
It's very oriental, what he is suggesting. Good to see Christians open to spiritual growth.
Now there is Haiti...Seems the time for Rev. Tom Honey to speak again...
@dommarthal Why? It is always interesting to know the way people think. Please don't misunderstand, I'm atheist and I still think we should show respect to each other. I think TED organizers think this way.
Sorry about mixing the singular and plural there... blame it on being sleepy.
what does this has to do with TED. I thought it was a forum for great ideas...
Awesome. I am simply amazed. In awe. First of all I would like to say I am no christian neither do I associate myself with any religion. May be I can describe myself as Absurdist, Existentialist or Agnostic. But If I had to strictly choose between Atheism and Religion I would rather choose Atheism.
Anyway, About the Video:
First of all I would like to say being a "priest" for 20 years and investing in a religion so much you would need real courage to come up on a public forum ......contd.
In my view the tsunami made so many victims because we the people have come to the point that we are disconnected with the knowledge that stoped passing from generation to generation and the signs of nature, if that knowledge had passed we would have a clue to what was coming.
how can we have this with that? Why does God this when he does that? Maybe maybe maybe..."Is God just another name for the universe?" That's the best question he presented, but a better one is: What if God DOESN'T EXIST? This question answers every other question he posed.
King David, King Solomon, Job and Jeremiah the weeping prophet were a few of many who dared to ask the dreaded question from God - "WHY?"!!!! It is a question that children are taught not to ask from their parents and teachers in school. The church is often the worst culprit at that. Yet these individuals found it within them to put their hope, trust and faith in God even while in great anguish at which they would without hesitation say "The Lord gave and the Lord took".
Wow, I just barely fell asleep... or was it a trance? He kinda trips you out doesn't he? lol
I see your answer to my question is: very hard
"How much moral honesty and courage it required for Tom to make it?"
Isn't honesty and courage what we expect our religious leaders to show? Or have we tacitly accepted the sad fact that religion is dominated by lies and cowardice?
Don't get me wrong, I like the direction in which rev. Honey is going, but it's none too soon. In fact, it's grossly overdue.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God? - Epicurus
He's not actually saying he doesn't know, he is trying to hang on to the idea of a god by tucking it away in hidden ways so he can still have his cake and eat it too. But when your magic book says he lives in the sky and you decide to put him somewhere else to put off his distruction by reason, then you fail. You fail at being the religion you claim to be and you fail to save your god, you just water him down to nothing. His god fails Epicurus and he should know better than to fake it.
@utopianguy It's not puzzling to everyone.
I'm looking...I see evolution, botany, biology...what EXACTLY am I supposed to be looking for? Remember, there have been thousands of gods through the years...what makes YOURS more believable than any of the others?
People who start from a position of valuing faith and believing in things because it is emotionally gratifying will always find a way to rationalize the question of evil. As with any conundrum inherent in Christianity, believers simply assume that, since and since God is perfect and in charge, they're simply not thinking about it quite right.
Other TED talks do give answers to 1000 year old questions in 20 minutes. The expectation bar is very high... of course we expected him to give an end theodicy with a scientific or technical answer like most TEDsters. Not our fault he did not meet our expectations, he should have tried harder.
Actually Im with Hitchens when it comes to Mother Theresa, but I see your point. My counterargument would be that for every good deed done in the name of religion, there has been an evil one. An inquisitor for every samaritan, so to speak.
i never knew who or what i was before i was born.... what makes you think i will know anything when i am dead? i had no brain before i was born and i will not have one after my death (at least not a functioning one) i have learned everything i know along the way, including a god figure. but that still doesn't change any facts.. and
what a great conclusion... exactly. We don't know anything so let's stop pretending to know god... please
From 1 Kings 19. 11-13.
And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
AlgeKalipso, Would you say this is not mystical? Does this not support Tom Honey's questioning?
Very much how I see God and also very Quakerly
contd...and put your faith in question. Best thing about tom honey is without fearing being caught by devil(as per his christian religious beliefs) puts his beliefs at test and he honestly does admit that he doesn't know the truth. He does not commit himself to regular bible blabber and present his view of what the world is and how the world should be. I do understand that he does not give the solution to the question. But you shouldn't have watched this video with expectations of any answers...
Tom Honey is going to become an atheist if hasn't already become one. I use to be a devout Christian and had many of the same ideas and questions he did. That time in my life was just one major step on the path to me becoming an atheist.
The answer is here. Write "Tom Honey Answer" to search box, hit enter, you will see it.
There is no use in debating how did a god let this happen. It is clear that all the struggle that some people have to go through to make sense of their unjustifiable assumptions about the nature of the universe its just unnecessary.
There are much simpler explanations that don't make any presuppositions about the nature of god. His struggle arises from making assumptions about what he (and most religious people) wants this entity to be like: almighty, all good, all knowing, etc... because of course it follows naturally that if there is a god he/she must have all those properties.
He is seeking an explanation from god which is quite easy to come up with: don't try to define what god is and you wont have expectations of how a god should behave. It is the pious desire for god to do good, but look around the world and you will fail to see his/her goodness.
If he really wants an explanation, there are many scientific papers explaining why it happened. It is a waste of time to seek answers to questions that can't be answered because they are based on assumption which can't be justified. Its unfortunate that a tsunami hit South Asia, but natural disasters do happen. The problem we face after natural disasters is what are we going to do about it!
P.S. Perhaps he should become an agnostic, or perhaps he should read Spinoza if he has not.
I don't see problem with regarding the tsunami as strong evidence that a loving, knowing all-powerful God does not exist. Not to regard this as evidence can only be done with unacceptable rationalizations. My biology teacher keeps telling me "this is the great mystery of God... why he allows bad things..." Nah, that shows me at least that such God does not exist. Sorry :/
I'm with you on the atheism, but that's not constructive for the discussion.
It is Advaita philosophy in Hinduism.
This is not Christian philosophy but a confused preacher. He's misleading any flock who believe in Jesus as Jesus was the image of God and came to help us see the face of God. Rev Honey may want to change churches.
Please give me a logical reason why approaching this question with a belief that there is no god will make it more honest? And what makes his belief in a god make him dishonest?
believe in what you don't know/understand = profit.
"He's wrong, although he is respectful and skeptical about his own beliefs, which I admire. Still, I don't think he's worth TED's time. He's incorrect, therefore he's not TED quality."
The guy finishes by saying I don't know, if you say he's wrong you're implying that he does know. You're incorrect and therefore you're not TED material.
But blatant trolling aside; it saddens me to see that the vast majority of people is actually not capable of listening. They may actually sit trough 20 minutes, HEAR him talking about how maybe we should forget about our preconceptions about god. Then they go, take those preconceptions to argument against the person, obviously not the content, to confirm their own worldview. That's putting an argument into your "opponents" mouth, a classic manipulation tactic, and just about as dogmatic as it gets. (not exactly the case i trolled but just scroll a bit)
The man is trying to define a new meaning to the word god. One detached of the man made fairy-tales you're accusing him to believe in. I'm not even sure he believes in god. But it's obvious he has faith in god (or he is a very good actor/liar). But to you that's all the same...
Can't two living things interacting be more than the sum of their parts? Then things like justice, logic, and other man made ideas like god do not exist in the real world and are, following your logic, not worth pursuing. See? I just did it myself, humans are disgusting! I'll just go put a syringe of heroin into my dickgina.
You're right, but a religious person saying "I don't know" instead of invoking god in everything he doesn't understand is a step in the right direction.
Wait, so is that how religion works? You can make it up as you go along? I think that's intellectual cowardice. I cannot understand why this guy didn't just go the extra step and ask "does god exist?" Answering "no" is a much more logical solution to his conundrum than the mental gymnastics (and self-deception) he had to do to come up with a god that fits into his modern, liberal moral code!
how good is "good enough" to get into heaven?
unfortunately, if the God who exists is the one of Christianity, then He's not a big fan of "lukewarm" people. Perhaps a deeper question is needed: can you be right with God and STILL enjoy life to its fullest?
contd....we know that there are so many things science will not be able to answer or will not be able to answer within our lifetime. So though answers to those question might exist in abstraction but they certainly do not exist in relation to our lifetime. So even though we expect science, logic and reasoning to answer every question to mankind eventually they do not exist for us at least individually. Which in itself seems quite abstract, nonsensical and infuriating.
All we can say is "I Exist"
Ah. To put it very simply, this speaker has become a Christian Atheist.
How ironic, and yet, it rings as very good news to someone like me. If more religious people could reach the point that this speaker has, I dare say the world would be a much more accepting and truthful place.
No, I just think he became a buddhist.
you left out "without leaving any solid proof to believe"
Of course it doesn't make any sense. There are no gods. It's like asking why every time I add two and two I can't quite make it equal five. I just don't know why, but I can never make it add up to five.
Redefine your definition of believe, I believe nothing, but I am not an nihilist.
I have a good idea that certain things are so due to evidence, or due to likely hood.
Based on that, there is almost certainly no god because a god or gods would be both improbable and virtually impossible!
Hell is defined as a place where you will have an eternal separation from God. All portrayals are simply speculation. Nobody knows what that is exactly. It could be a lake of fire, but are souls flammable? Hell isn't a punishment, heaven is a reward. Hell is the lack of that reward, and the eternal inability to earn it.
Obviously, that sentence wasnt ment to be taken literaly. But I find the thought that a person is more or less coddled by an all powerful being, who exists outside the boundaries of what we know is possible, to be celf-centered in a mind boggling way.
contd... Do you think he could have answered a question in 20 minutes which have puzzled mankind for thousands of years.
Well, Then why should we watch this video.
Probably for the same reasons why we watch any other video. Why we listen to any other opinion and just like fanaticism, accepting that we have no knowledge is also a point of view or for mere stimulus of ideas or even for simple entertainment.
Should there be or Is there answers to every question? Even though science is progressing
If God exists and he gave you instincts, then follow them. Nobody is born with an instinct to spit in their own faces. Guilt and shame are devices to make people followers.
But he does commit himself to a point of view: that god exists. He's a christian vicar that redefines god into such vague terms that no one knows what to think or believe anymore - into something that is counter-biblical with no scriptural basis whatsoever, if not at most partial. He betrays his chosen religion and church. Kudos to him for honestly asking himself those crucial questions... but he should now attempt to answer them honestly too... perhaps there is no god.
THIS IS FASCINATING!. If this Priest or Vicar had read the Bible that he is supposed to read to lead and feed his sheep he would have found all the answers to his questions. Ironically he fulfilled the very words of Jesus that he is criticizing. at 8:23. The foolish man built his house on the sand and a TSUNAMI destroyed it. Was his faith based on children songs?. Did he ever read those passages to see the context?.It is so easy to be fooled by credentials. If I say that I studied in a seminary to be a catholic priest and then became atheist and hated all religions , would that make me more believable if I defended the Bible?. Never to an atheist to be sure. I thing what this guy is doing is unethical. He should renounce his vows, and preach to atheists; they need preachers like him to confirm and establish them in their FAITH. As all atheists he is WISER, MORE LOVING, MORE COMPASSIONATE, MORE JUST ETC than the GOD and the CHRIST of the BIBLE. Oh! how deceitful is the heart of man!. More and more is calling good what is Evil and evil what is GOOD.
I don't believe some of the comments in response to this video. This guy thinks quite logically and comes up with some good ideas, then you lampoon him for not going far enough. He's a freaking Priest! If he stops believing in God, he's suddenly out of a job. No Priest in their right mind would say God does not exist, for fear of losing a flock of followers who keep him nicely paid.
Problem is, many who believe in a god, do so for selfish reasons; - go to heaven etc. Fact is, idea of God is a delusion. But if you have bought into this delusion, the only thing you can do is making a loving, caring god of it/you, and passing some of it on. That's what Rev Honey is saying, using the "namaste" greeting as an example. Believing in a god is to manifest good/beauty. Makes sense. At least he's honest enuf to say "I don't know".
What Is Man
Home > Volume 6 > What Is Man
8/29/11 From YahuShua HaMashiach, Our Lord and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
Thus says The Lord: Beloved, upon what foundation does the love of God rest? With what thread is the Word of The Lord woven? Can any man know the mind of God? Can flesh touch The Holy? Tell Me, if you know.
And what is man, that he should be created in My image, the image of The Son of Man? For within man is My breath; I gave him life. He was made through Me and for Me; I caused him to be. It was My own blood which was shed for him, My own life which was poured out, even unto death. Therefore all those who come to Me and drink shall be made new; whether awake or sleeping, all My beloved shall arise and live. For I AM HE, The Resurrection and The Life.
Thus there is indeed a focal point of creation, of which I am always mindful, a reason I created the heavens and the earth and everything in them - It is mankind. Yet man does not yet understand what he is, nor can he comprehend what he shall be. For I have made man in My own image, that in the fullness of time he would come to dwell in Me and I in him, being at all times with Me where I am. In that day he will become like Me, for he shall see Me as I truly am.[1]
Therefore prepare your hearts, beloved ones...
Keep your eyes fixed upon Me, obey My voice,
And heed the sound of this Trumpet...
For the Day of The Lord has come,
Behold, ALL have entered in...
Says The Lord.
Source: trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=What_Is_Man
.
Do you believe in nothingness,infinity,eternity,scientific truths,mathematical truths,concepts like triangularity,freedom of speech?? I've never seen any of these yet I believe these immaterial concepts exist--they are not embodied in any one material body yet they exist,,something to think about.....
If I don't know is the answer, then what is the point in believing in a GOD. One might as well be an atheist..
@moonlight7171
the threat of hell is useless against atheists.
We came from Africa.
The real issue is missed. What he should be trying to deal with is perceiving God as simultaneously eternal and durational infinite and finite creator and created. This is why he's attempting to logically give human standards to What Was Before The Creation of The Universe. This is the classic sympathy for the devil argument...
"If God is so cruel he doesn't deserve our worship." It's understandable though. 1000 years of The Inquisitional Flame is one hell of a transgenerational mental block.
Not every immaterial idea is true. Freedom of speech is just the name of a law. Things like math and science can be easily explained. "god" cannot. At first god is a man in the sky, then we explore the sky and find he is not there, so he becomes a man in another dimension. First the Earth was created in 6 days, then we discover that's off by a few billion years. so religion redefines the word "day". Aren't religious people tired yet of desperately changing the rules as they go along.
I wonder: if he has so many doubts why doesn't he just do the next logical step and become an atheist? The way he is trying to get out of his dilemma doesn't seem consistent to me at all.
Around 17:30 he describes a sort of mysticism that I like a lot. But that has suddenly nothing to do with Christianity. It is a rejection of the God of the Bible. But why doesn't he say that openly? Why is he still a Christian? Why? Isn't it more reasonable to simply abandon the myth and stay with the mysticism and do so openly rather than be like "I am a mystic at heart but I still lie to the kids by making them believe in this crappy book."
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
Epicurus
'nuff said
Maths can be God and people can meditate on equations while they wait for their DNA worshipping session. :)
The God of the Bible talks and interacts with humans in many many occasions. Maybe we can keep the God King 19 describes, but not the God of other parts of the Bible. I don't see the point of keeping the whole book.
How can one be satisfied with this answer?
Evil, pain, and suffering are the consequences of departure from God. Discommunion is what made them possible. I thought the Church of England believed in free will? Why is it so hard for this man see that in fact the world has been given to us by God. He gave it to His created beings, which is why Satan is called "the Prince of this world." We do with the world as we please.
The dynamic of the Christian life, is to receive what God has given, and then to give it back to Him in our lives.
"Jesus", for a lack of a better exclamation. I actually cringed when he mentioned people telling him how god got them a parking space. Thats is beyond delusional, and more than a bit egocentric. Yes, an all-powerful creator of the universe changed reality to make your day a bit more convenient. Now who's the master in this relationship, again? And then people wonder why religious people scare me.
Hes basically talking about Hinduism
I admire his honesty, but IS HE SERIOUS!? He sees the flaws in the bases of what he believes in but can't see what they mean! If God can't be as he alledgedly is, he probably isn't!