🏛 Learn Ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Old English at the Ancient Language Institute! Sign up today: ancientlanguage.com ⬅ 📜 Spreadsheet for the Ranieri-Roberts Approach to Ancient Greek: bit.ly/ranieri-roberts-approach Athenaze (US-UK) Book 1 amzn.to/496m9DK Athenaze (US-UK) Book 2 amzn.to/4b8v9Kl (N.B. I am only familiar with the Second Edition of the original English Athenaze (US-UK), linked above; I hear the Third Edition is vastly different and quite inferior, but I cannot confirm that from direct experience.) Athenaze (Italy) Book 1 amzn.to/3UlpPxv Athenaze (Italy) Book 2 amzn.to/498qRRp Logos. Lingua Graeca: Λόγος. Ἑλληνική γλῶσσα Amazon Spain: www.amazon.es/Logos-Lingua-Graeca-Λόγος-Ἑλληνική/dp/8494534661/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_es_ES=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2X6BQMKLHK79Q&keywords=logos+cultura+clasica&qid=1706304863&sprefix=logos+cultura+clasic%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-1 Alexandros amzn.to/3UfrSmH Mythologia amzn.to/42g8zM3 Thrasymachus amzn.to/4b6v4XP Reading Greek: Text and Vocabulary amzn.to/4b9x2GN Reading Greek: Grammar and Exercises amzn.to/4bq1QmX An Independent Study Guide to Reading Greek amzn.to/3Sx3Ge1 Rouse’s Greek Boy amzn.to/3Sx3Odv Ancient Greek Alive amzn.to/3UbInjD
Hi Luke, I’d like to learn ancient Greek and am considering a tutor. I tried one lesson and it went well but curious to know your thoughts on working with a tutor initially when I have no background in the language at all. Thanks!
For anyone wondering, I (random internet stranger) can vouch for this system of learning Ancient Greek. Started in mid-March 2024 with Logos and progressively started reading Ancient Greek Alive, Athenaze, Reading Greek and Thrasymachus (also read a few chapters of Alexandros, but I do not like the greek as much and so I will read it later). I am currently at chapter 22 of Logos and I am mostly applying the system designed by Luke, works like a charm. I am super impressed with this method, even more so because the more I read (and re-read!) the simpler it becomes to understand even the new chapters. I was shocked last night when I was reading chapters 4A and 4B in Reading Greek and could understand while reading "σκιας οναρ ανθρωπος". Do not worry about the different vocabs in different books, you will end up knowing them already when they are introduced later in another book. Extensive reading is the way. Χαριν σοι εχο!
I started Athénaze some months ago with the help of some podcast on Spotify, and though I didn’t like it as much as LLPSI, I felt I was making progresses at a good pace. But then the podcast came to an end, and from chapter 5 things were getting harder. I was looking for another path to climb on, and then I fell upon your videos, talking about Logos and Alexandros. So yesterday I ran to my reference library, and I found the books very agreeable, so I decided to buy Logos, which caught me from the beginning. It’s funny, because I was just thinking about doing exactly the same thing you recommend on this video, and buy also Alexandros, and alternate the reading between both books and Athénaze. And then you come up with the Ranieri-Robertson method! Thank you for all your work and your advices, Luke, you’re really a great inspiration, and I owe you the discovery of LLPSI and the willing to learn this wonderful language which is Ancient Greek.Greetings from Spain.
I'm really glad of the approach is useful! Give it a try, and post a new comment here in a few months reporting on your progress. Θάῤῥει! Keep up the good work and take heart! Gracias
I've fallen head over heels in love with this language and in large part I have you to thank for it. Been learning for a few months now and the accessibility and quality of the learning materials that exist today is really astounding. You're doing invaluable work.
That’s really nice of you to say; I feel like I’ve provided very little. I am planning a whole course of videos for ScorpioMartianus, much more ambitious than Ancient Greek in Action. I need to get on that.
Thanks for this, Luke! I've been learning Modern Greek for the past two years, in preparation to learn Ancient Greek. I'm about to kick off the method you recommend, starting with Logos!
I am a greek in my mid 30s and we were taught ancient Greek at school for at least 3-4 years. (1999-2003) On final year we had to study Antigone. But we were taught in the very worst possible way. Like here is a weekly list of nouns and verbs you need to learn by heart how to conjugate them. I bought the 1st volume of Cambridge Latin a while ago and the difference is staggering. The fact that there are books trying to teach Greek and Latin using simplified dialogs and pictures is amazing!
That's true! I definitely recommend the books I cited here to learn to become a fluent reader of Ancient Greek. Your suffering shall not have been in vain.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Dear Luke, thanks a lot for your help. I found your inspiring Channel just today; excuseme, How could I get some of these books? as where I come from it is very difficult to find them, leaving aside I am temporalily unemployed; maybe I might get them second hand through some friend living in USA. My native language is Spanish. Greetings from the underground!
I learnt to read Greek with two graded readers in parallel, Athenaze, Reading Greek and Zuntz for Greek, for Latin I only needed LLPSI and some supplementaries. In fact I used the Italian Version of Athenaze and glossed the Italian glosses with Latin glosses. Before I started I already knew Latin a Greek pretty well, but I wanted to get my reading up to speed and now it's pretty much on par with difficult texts in modern languages.
Luke, as usual, this is outstanding. I must say, I was surprised that you neglected to include the videos of your Ancient Greek Alive series in the spreadsheet as a lead-up to Athenaze. Also, because this is intended for autodidactics, have you considered including the video content from Alpha with Angela? Was there also a reason that you didn't include the Polis materials? Additionally, Rouse also originally wrote "A Greek Reader" before writing "A Greek Boy at Home," and it is also "supposed" to go with his grammar. Finally, have you considered Blackie's Primer orn his Dialogues for Schools and Colleges? Even so, this is a fantastic resource that clearly took a very large number of hours to put together. Thank you for your service to the autodidactic ancient language learning community, and for making this resource freely available to all of us learning Greek on our own.
Also, as a postscript to this idea about adding in not just other kinds of books into the spreadsheet but media resources in general that include audio or immersive video material, I can only imagine how enjoyable it would be to get a general survey of the places in ancient Greece that the different stories take place in and to have these keyed in the chart somehow so that someone could recreationally spatially explore these sites in something like, say, Assassins Creed Odyssey and even use their immersive time in the game as a way to activate their language knowledge by describing what they are seeing in the settings around them. In general, it would further populate the imagination with images of carefully reconstructed features from ancient Greece and create a sense of adventure and ownership of the material by personalizing it beyond simply words on a page.
Hi Stephen, that's a fine question. In essence the Jonathan Roberts Approach is to facilite extensive reading (rather than intensive reading). Certainly you could augment your study program with any number of non-reading media, and all that is great and highly useful, even essential in some cases. It's just not what this approach pertains to. Polis is a great book too, but is really only useful if 1) you're using it with a teacher who is using TPR with you in person or 2) you already know some Ancient Greek and you know how to do TPR (as I did when I picked up Polis) so you can make yourself do those commands and immagine interactions. I thought that went beyond the scope of the approach. I'll look into Blackie's dialogues!
@@polyMATHY_Luke , That makes perfect sense. if you have a hard time locating a good clean copy of the second edition of Blackie's book of dialogues, just let me know. I was able to get one.
@@polyMATHY_Luke, as I've reflected on the Ranieri-Roberts approach, I thought of a couple other things that could be integrated with the plan. First, regarding macronized Greek text, have you considered Anne Groton's From Alpha to Omega textbook? There's not exactly a ton of reading there, but it is nevertheless extra reading that has already been macronized. (She also has a supplemental reader, Forty-Six Stories in Classical Greek, but I haven't seen enough of this one to say whether it is also macronized.) Second, regarding primary sources to weave into the plan, are you familiar with Dan Burling's reading plan from Biblical Mastery Academy that arranges the books of the New Testament from easiest to hardest according to vocabulary and syntax? Were you to integrate the books of the New Testament according to this or a similar plan into the approach, it could prove highly motivating for readers to see at which point they would be ready to read various texts of the New Testament. ua-cam.com/video/4RQBCRf6jH0/v-deo.htmlsi=V7cOkeeS6OsYq5uq
Hey Luke, love your stuff! I (and Im sure many others) would love to see you do a similar video on modern standard Italian and Latin respectively! Cheers!
I’d love to see Mark Jeong’s Greek Reader incorporated into this. It doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that other books have, but the beginning dialogues are easy, and there is plenty of repetition.
For anyone who has enjoyed this video as much as I have, you might take something from Found in Antiquity’s video on 5 strategies for learning Latin (see strategy 3 “The More the Merrier”) which is of course applicable to learning Ancient Greek. It’s basically the same strategy/method outlined here but something she says might be helpful to you. Also, you might get something from Dr. Arguelles talking about using multiple intro textbooks for the sake of vocabulary acquisition. Found In Antiquity: ua-cam.com/video/MIqmkpb1Pm4/v-deo.htmlsi=RDyAQoWa-aNQjKl2 Dr. Arguelles: ua-cam.com/video/Q_B0Xgd5Bdw/v-deo.htmlsi=e-k3aSihGl5pwXYA
Αγαπητέ Λουκ Ρανιέρι, Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ για το εξαιρετικό σας βίντεο. Αναρωτιέμαι γιατί δεν έχετε γράψει το δικό σας βιβλίο; Ή, ακόμα πιο εύκολο, γιατί δεν έχετε κάνει ένα podcast; Θα έπρεπε να κάνουμε ένα podcast που να εκμεταλλεύεται τις τεχνικές της «κατανοητής εισροής» και της «διαστήματος επανάληψης». Με εκτίμηση, Joseph
Care Luke Ranieri, Tibi gratias ago pro tuo excellenti video. Cur non scripsisti tuum librum? Vel etiam facilius, cur non fecisti tuum podcast? Debemus facere podcast quod utitur technicis "comprehensibilis input" et "spatii repetitionis". Cum reverentia, Joseph
Caro Luke Ranieri, Grazie mille per il tuo eccellente video. Mi chiedo perché non hai scritto il tuo libro? O, ancora più semplice, perché non hai fatto un podcast? Dovremmo fare un podcast che sfrutta le tecniche del "input comprensibile" e della "ripetizione spaziata". Con stima, Joseph
That’s kind of you, Sneed And yes, I recommend Familia Romana. I haven’t yet attempted to integrate it with other books, as I haven’t found that necessary, but I will give it a shot.
Hi Luke, to give you some advice, maybe you could introduce some archaic Greek letters like Ϝϝ, Ϙϙ and tell us guys how they are abolished through out times. This would be an interesting aspect on how the phonology of Greek envolvs 😊.
So, apparently, the answer to what reader i should use for Ancient Greek is "all of them." A bit of a question. You mentioned a couple of more advanced readers, Ephodion and Cebetos Pinax. Where do i find those? There don't appear to be links for them in the description Edit: i did find the former on Amazon, though the wait to get it is ridiculously long. The website kept on autocorrecting me and showing results for a medication.
Great video man! Thanks to you now I'm about to finish the edition of Ørberg of the Catilinae Oratio of Cicero and Salluster narration of it. I've started to study ancient greek by only using Athenaze, the italian version, and well it went well, but when the participle was introduced I got a huge problem understanding ahha so I decided to transcribe the other chapters until the point I got, but that's way too long and paintul to my hands hahaha so I guess i'm just gonna reread everything and maybe transcribing the shorter chapters. Thanks tho for the other suggestions:) such a shame they're not well punctuated. Btw you should also recommend some ancient greek books that could be good to improve after these educative books. I mean, not textbooks but actual books originally made by people speaking this language.
Hi, thanks for the comment. As to your question, all the books mentioned draw heavily from original Ancient Greek texts, such that some chapters and many readings have extensive amounts of authentic Attic and Koine and Homeric literature. Thus these books are the best place to start, as they guide you into these authentic texts rather gradually.
Hello Luke, amazing video as always, very helpful. I was wondering if you've heard of Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek, and what opinion you have of it in such case. It's a bit more particular than the books you present in the video but - in my ignorance and will to learn this dialect - the author writes an apologia as an introduction defending this way of proceeding as an intro to Ancient Greek. Your opinion would be most appreciated. Saludos desde España.
Gracias, gracias, gracias! El video es buenísimo y la cantidad de horas de trabajo que hay detrás! Sólo le falta una cosa, y es hablar de los audios disponibles, por ejemplo logos tiene audios con pronunciación moderna en el site de internet. Qué hay del resto? Se pueden adquirir en algún sitio? Un saludo
Thanks! Pardon if I respond in English; I understand Spanish quite well, but I need to practice writing in it before I embarrass myself publicly, haha. Indeed, for Logos the audio is in the Modern Greek pronunciation because that seems to be the author's preference. If you'd like me to do it in Restored Classical Attic Pronunciation, you could ask Cultura Clásica to hire me to do so.
Thanks! It's a fine supplement to all this; it doesn't really have an order that would fit with anything here, and unless you know French it's useless until you master all the vocabulary. So you could throw it after everything else.
Luke Luke, could you publish a list (spreadsheet 🤓😉) of all those words in in Logos that are shamefully macronless so I don’t have to look them all up or hoplessly wonder… 😥…Pretty please, pretty pretty pulcherrime καλος please…
Unfortunately that’s literally every other word, so no. But what you should do is write to Cultura Clásica, telling them you’ll buy their book if they include the macrons.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Done and sent! Dear Sir/Madame I recently bought 'Logos' by Santiago Martinez. I am learning Greek as an autodidact - outside of school. There are many aspects of the book that I like very much. There is one thing missing however that would be very helpful to me as a beginner - macrons marking the proper vowel lengths of words. As it is, I have to look it up in other books or online sources. This is quite tedious. Until I am an expert, I would hesitate to buy any more books teaching ancient Greek that did not have these marked. Kind Regards, Anne Smith
It's got some good stuff, but it doesn't fit easily into the approach laid out here. I'd call it a good supplement. The layout of the book itself it's pretty awful, though, at least in the editions I've seen.
I saw a short convo in these comments between you, Luke, & @firstaidsack where they said that they put the macrons into Logos themself, & you guys were talking about its strengths & weaknesses, & you said that the change from LLPSI style to Alexandros style is jarring, but that Logos is good with a competent teacher, I think. Do you recommend, then, Logos alone as a good option for not autodidacts but traditional students? I am hoping I can be considered an at least half competent teacher & I want to pick an ancient Greek textbook to teach high schoolers.
What do you think is going on when you can read and listen to a target language without translating and understand but are not so good at speaking the language? That’s my issue with Spanish but for Greek that would be a great place to be at.
Hi, how do you consider the ASSIMIL GRECO ANTICO (le Grec Ancien) approach ? It is "incomplete" but smooth and probably even lighter than any of theese books you just mentioned. It comes in French, Italian, German and possibly in English (not sure).
A great question. I responded to another commenter below about this. The Attic style is very good in the Assiml course, and thus worthy of imitation (the audio is absolute garbage in pronunciation, of course, but not really the topic here). But if you don't already know Ancient Greek, you have little chance of learning from it unless you know French, or look up every word in a dictionary. True, there is an English version, I forgot about that. Yet the formatting is horrid in general (the dividing into lines makes for difficult comprehension), and there are no quotation marks when characters speak. So it's valuable, but for the effort I would recommend Plato instead. I might incorporate it in the future, but it definitely seemed quite extraneous compared to the other texts. Still, good suggestion.
@@StephenHarrisJr Sorry my mistake, I now better remember that a few years ago someone did an English translation of the Assimil Latin book not the Greek. The Latin comes now officially in 3 languages and unofficially in 4 including English. The Greek one comes in French and Italian and possibly they will make it in German.
Hey Luke, I just bought Familia Romana and was wondering if it is a good idea to study Latin and Ancient Greek simultaneously or if Latin should be learned first.
That’s a fine question. The universal answer is: what you enjoy. Most likely, though, you will prefer to acquire fluency in reading Latin first via FR, which is such an amazing book; then when you wade through all the Greek readers you’ll have the confidence of having learned a difficult but easier language, knowing that eventually you will make it to the end.
Love all your work. This is probably both the best and worst place to ask this, but does anybody here have any advice on how to learn a language with only a dictionary and a grammar book? Thanks
Thank you! In effect, it is quite impossible to do what you’re looking for. You would learn *about* that language but never acquire it, never be able to read fluently in it.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks. I'm trying to learn Nuorese, I can already speak Italian (natively) and Piedmontese. I can generally understand Campidanese Sardinian, but all of the resources to learn Sardinian are about Limba Sarda Comune. Thanks anyway though.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Talking about Calabrian Greeks... recently I've come across a book in Calabrian Greek ("Dialoghi greci di Calabria": I've discovered that I have a friend with Calabrian Greek roots... whose surname is Romeo!), and I've discovered something very interesting: often, in Italiot Greek, original ancient Greek /ps/ sound has shifted to /sp/ (e.g. γράψω has become gráspo). That does remind something also to you, doesn't it? Eheh! The same has happened two thousand years before to the /d͡z/ sound!
@@Philoglossos I tried that months ago, but the Vivarium Novum edition is "currently unavailable" on Amazon despite being linked from Vivarium Novum's website
Hello. I know the greek alphabet and i'm a bit familiar with greek because of my pontic greek background but unfortunately i read the greek alphabet slower than the latin alphabet. Is it possible to read greek alphabet as fast as a native? If so what would you recommend for people like me to do?
Ωραία! Absolutely you can. This technique is incredibly helpful for getting better at reading in general, and will definitely help you acquire the Greek alphabet like a native: ua-cam.com/video/JTWKpNy96EM/v-deo.htmlsi=nyHY5KOipMo6zsOD
My problem with ancient languages like Latin, Greek (ancient and koine) and ancient Hebrew is they are all focused on reading and understanding vocabulary - all is passive. I need workbooks to write in Latin and Greek to make progress and all these books have very little of it.
I hear you, but this is how CI (comprehensible input) works as a concept: you receive input, and you need tons of comprehensible input, receiving correct modelling, in order to produce output. When should you produce output? Whenever you feel like it! Later is just as good as now, but nothing is stopping you from using something like the Ephemeris Technique: ua-cam.com/video/S-g1dnN2WCM/v-deo.htmlsi=AoQrSChXnxlKkmDA with which you can model any of the texts you read, and write something more personal in that style or using that vocabulary. That said, most of the textbooks mentioned in the video have output based exercises and workbooks (I showed the one for Logos in this video), including Alexandros and Thrasymachus and Athenaze.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks for the answer and for video. I'll try this approach. yeah, Diálogos: Prácticas de Griego antiguo seems to have lots of exercises. I need to buy it. Do you know something similar for Latin?
Because we inherit our Greek vocabulary via Latin, and the Latin name is Pythagorās; moreover, Latin has different rules for accenting words, and in this word the English accents the same syllable as in Latin.
Talking ancient Greek is like carrying coal to Newcastle as Greek is spoken today. It did not have to be reinstalled as a language when the Kingdom of Greece was founded in 1830.
They were indeed frequently written; and in any case, modern spelling conventions like capital vs. lowercase letters, punctuation, and the standardized accent system are all modern.
I own Alexandros, Athenaze, and Logos. I already found myself using Logos for about nine or ten chapters and then returning to Athenaze to test my progress. I’m glad to see that I was doing it right!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Of course! I do have a question concerning audio: I cannot find any for Logos. If I were to follow this approach, that would mean that I am getting little to no Greek audio. Here's an example: if I work through the first ten chapters of Logos, I don't get audio until I decide to listen to Athenaze ch.1. How would you advise me to address this issue? I listen to yourself and Mr. Stratakis; however, I cannot help but feel that my pronunciation is simply bad, especially in regard to pitch accent. Plus there's the bouncing back and forth between your Samosotene Lucian and Mr. Stratakis' Classical Athenian recordings. Do I simply listen to other chapters, even if I don't understand what's being said? Please, do not mistake my screed for a complaint; I simply want to acquire Ancient Greek in an effective manner: that Kraken isn't going to summon itself! I apologize and take responsibility for any grammatical mistakes---Hypnos has overcome me. P.S. I’ve been told that I have a particular set skills, skills that allow me to sound just like a certain Northern Irish Zeus. Will being able to somewhat affect a Northern Irish brogue help in my cephalopodean activities? Is it essential to acquiring the mythic perfect pitch accent? An inquiring mind wants to know. Thanks again for all of your passion and hard work. It’s daggumb infectious.
@@davidross2004You don't have to constantly switch between Attic and Lucian Koiné pronunciations. You can speak normally in whatever pronunciation you are using and follow these simple rules to observe pitch accents. That is, after an accented syllable, the next syllable is lower in pitch. If a word ends with an accented syllable, that syllable is higher-pitched.
I can't express how happy I am to have found your channel. I majored in linguistics in undergraduate and graduate school. I found the books Lingua Latina by chance in the university library! I am so grateful for Mr. Renaissance Man Ranieri!
Your contributions on ancient Greek learning and phonology are truly outstanding. I always recommend your work on this subject to everyone. Several months ago I ended up getting stuck on chapter 25 of the Italian version of Athenaze and felt that I was just learning a bunch of grammar concepts without it improving my reading. I hope this will help me move forward.
I'm really happy to hear if this was a well timed video! I understand how you feel; I had the same experience the first time I read Chapter 25 of Athenaze - what the heck was that? I asked myself. Haha, in fact I asked myself that several times when reading the Italy version of the book. If in time (weeks or months) you find this approach useful, please write a new comment here! (I don't always see responses to comments.)
Excellent video. Unfortunately, the supply of resources for autodidacts learning Sanskrit (the main classical language I am currently learning) is somehow worse than what is available for ancient greek, but this methodology does give me hope, especially once I manage to track down all the reader/ci style resources that are available (not much it seems at the moment).
@@polyMATHY_Luke I'm not anywhere near that level yet, but I'd love to once I am. Unfortunately grammar-translation dominates to a much larger extent than in Latin or Greek, and a lot of resources assume either knowledge of Hindi or a background in comparative linguistics with Latin and Ancient Greek. As a South Indian from Tamil Nadu with only a cursory knowledge of Latin, I am neither.
Taught myself classical Chinese then Japanese about five years ago through the used of graded readers (l did this after learning both the modern languages which made it easier). Had the urge to learn ancient Greek last year -- made the mistake of picking up the Hansen and Quinn textbook. Worked through about 300 pages or so and got crushed by the tedious grammar exercises. Realized somewhat ironically how lucky I was starting with ancient Chinese (no conjugations / declensions / moods ). Been feeling the motivation the past few months to give ancient Greek another shot. This video was the perfectly timed. Can't wait to give this method a try!
Good timing then! Yes, I felt similarly blocked by the relatively friendly Athenaze. Please let me know how you get on! It's usually best to write a new comment in case I miss a reply to an existing comment.
Amazing! I’ve been reading all of these already but without a map. I will follow your suggested order and return with comments and observations! Thanks again, my friend!
Hey, Luke! Once again I want to say hands down that you have been more of a teacher to me than any of my teachers at school. I’m a native Greek, but don’t know Ancient Greek well, as the way it was taught at school was disgraceful to say the least. What would you recommend for native Greek speakers as autodidacts? Most of the books you showed were easy for me to understand without needing to translate - of course, I am referring to the first simple chapters, not the later ones where translations and grammar hit you like the gods hit mortals 😂 I have the US/UK Athenaze, Logos, and Alexandros. Should I follow your document as it provides amazing structure, even if some things I know/are similar to Modern Greek? I do aim on buying the rest of the books eventually and hopefully at some point in the future, understanding the language of our ancestors perfectly. PS: I love your accent and the correct Classical pronunciation! Thanks again, διδάσκαλε!
Γεια σου, Αλέξανδρε! Ευχαριστώ πολύ! I would recommend the same books for a native speaker of Modern Greek, since the idiom and vocabulary, as well as the grammar, are drammatically different, in beautiful ways that you'll love! It sounds like the books you already have will be more than enough to help you achieve fluency. Follow the spreadsheet, and then please report back here with a new comment (I don't always see replies to existing comments) to tell us if you think it was useful or not. Thanks for the generous compliment about my accent. I also am very fond of the Classical Attic Pronunciation, and I'll be using it more in videos and audiobooks. I am also studying Modern Greek so as to make my intonation and other aesthetic features sound more like you Greeks, while still maintaining the characteristics of the ancient pronunciation. Which isn't easy, but worth trying: ἄξιόν ἐστι πειρᾶσθαι! Χάριν σοι οἶδα.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Idk, looking for things that *might* have stayed the same does seem like a noble effort in the eternal search of perfection, but the likelihood that the intonation was much like that of Modern Greek seems rather small to me, given how dramatically different the whole prosodic system was in Ancient Greek. Even the purely intonational sides of the documented ancient pitch accent system seem like a very different beast from Modern Greek intonation as far as I can tell. I suppose the fact that Modern Greek most commonly has a rising tone in a stressed syllable could be tied to the old acute, but the all-important fall in the next syllable forming the 'contonation' posited by Allen and others doesn't seem to be there. Perhaps Modern Greek can at least be helpful as an example of a 'non-flexible accent language' that, unlike English, expresses focus without deaccenting, which Ancient Greek seems likely to have been as well. But in general, the common intuitive notion that intonation is this mystical essence or soul of the language that changes less in history than other features is unwarranted. Just comparing the melodies of a couple of closely related Scandinavian dialects shows how much it has been able to change since the Viking Age, over a much shorter time period than the attested history of Greek. Ditto for various mannerisms. *Nothing* really stays the same, when enough time is given. Which is probably the only reason why we see so many seemingly mutually 'unrelated' languages today on Earth in the first place.
I have been doing this (Version One - reading or studying as far as I could go and then switching to another text) for Koine Greek. I was beginning to think I had been wasting my time, but now I'm looking at textts that I struggled with and I'm reading without translating. This is wonderful!
Oh dear Luke, where were you 40 years ago when this girl was starving for real nourishment of mind, body, soul, spirit ? Oh😮 still in the heavens, aether to be formed for me / us now...❤
Thanks for watching it! It’s a super specific and kind of technical video, so I’m pleased if it’s useful to those hunting that dream of learning Ancient Greek.
Would you still recommend learning grammar the way you suggested in the Rainieri Downling Method before using this newer approach or is it meant to replace it?
Great question. These are different methods/approaches that are entirely compatible. The Dowling Method (for Latin, but equally applicable here) is to memorize all the declensions before starting an extensive reading campaign. In practice you could memorize the paradigms as you go, or whenever you like. I recommend the Ranieri-Dowling Method for anyone who has the energy and desire to do it. Even a partial memorization early on can be really helpful.
Hello! All the Logos books I see online appear to be the first edition. How can we know we are getting the edited version that you show in the video? Thanks!
@@polyMATHY_Luke It is actually very good, ut mihi vidētur, for someone like yourself that has utilized all those other materials successfully and has attained a high degree of fluency!
Hi, can you please tell me which edition you have because I have the 2 older editions, the first from 1989 (blue cover) and the second from 1993, both editions don't have macrons on long vowels but hopefully the later editions do. There are at least 4 or 5 newer editions the very last one from 2021. If you confirm that it has long vowels I''l buy it. Thank you
Dīxistī convertere nōn est discere, sed pellicullae tuae (in quibus linguam Graecam Chritopherō docēs) multum mihi docuērunt, etsī in illīs convertistis. Pessimum nōn est convertere meā sententiā.
Vērum est nōs nōnnumquam vertisse sententiās vel vocābula ejus librī, praecipuē quod Alexandros liber, ut suprā in pelliculā dīxī, "comprehensible input" nōn est. Tamen, dēfendō nōs etiam Latīnē saepiculē vertisse, proptereāquod, aliā linguā ūtentēs sed Graecae similiōre, melius haerent nōbīs verba ita facientēs, quam sī facerēmus Anglicē. Nihilō minus, plērumque locōs intellēximus Graecē, nōn vertentēs Latīnē. Prāvum quod contemnō est vertere vertendī causā. Hoc nocet.
Thank you Luke, I wish I’d seen this 5 years ago! I crawled my way autodidactically through the JACTs book. I‘ve since gone back to scratch with the John Taylor reading Greek book, having recognised that my basic grammar was patchy and confused, and found it is much clearer there. I’m loving rouse’s Greek boy since you got me onto it. It’s a lovely read and very charming. I can occasionally read a page of an original attic Greek text but it’s a bit of a fluke and the next page I might be lost at sea
Any chance of a ΛΟΓΟΣ ebook any time soon? I really need the ability to search for the first use of a word. I emailed the author and publisher, and they said they didnt have any current plans, any idea if that has changed?
A fair question! An e-book like you imagine would be a difficult prospect. I think it would be helpful if they added an index like Familia Romana had with every word’s first occurrence cited by chapter and line number. And also macrons, heh.
Although uncomplete, I found Seumas MacDonald's* Lingua Graeca per se Illustrata a useful supplement/accompaniment with the other core books. Maybe it could be considered for addition to the (excellent) spreadsheet. :D. *edit: who I just found out is Mr Patrologist. (Who also writes that he will be continuing on LGPSI this year :DD)
I'm a big fan of Seumas and his LGPSI too! I didn't include it since it's still undergoing quite a few revisions. Perhaps I should make a list of honorable mentions that haven't yet made their way into the spreadsheet's matrix?
One likely way to help (though not completely) with the Italian Ephodia is to use Google Translate's camera auto-translate. It won't be perfect, but should help to get the gist of the explanation. It will probably struggle with grammar terms, though I could be wrong.
That’s an interesting idea. But Google translate doesn’t recognize Ancient Greek, so whatever it translates is invariably garbage, since it interprets it through Modern Greek. It also “knows” Latin but does an equally awful job.
Very helpful video, thank you! The Logos book isn't available on that Amazon link and I can't find it on the publisher's website. Do you have any idea where else to find it?
Right you are! Here it is from the Spanish Amazon: www.amazon.es/Logos-Lingua-Graeca-Λόγος-Ἑλληνική/dp/8494534661/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_es_ES=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2X6BQMKLHK79Q&keywords=logos+cultura+clasica&qid=1706304863&sprefix=logos+cultura+clasic%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-1
Just throwing this out there, one thing I struggle with greek is not actually the complex verb and noun mutations (the books do a good job covering them), but the particles and sometimes the prepositions which govern like all (3 out of 4 (5)) cases, and the books in my experience could do alot better on those fronts. (Cant speak for Logos though)
True! Yes, Logos is no exception. I think the extensive reading that the approach provides is helpful to help one develop an intuitive sense of the particles and μὲν δὲ etc.
I have bought a few Japanese books that teach ancient Greek, solely because I wanted to check how they try to teach a language very different to Japanese. Interestingly, one book has the peculiarity of teaching both Latin and Greek at the same time. By the way, is there any book that explains the dialogues of NPCs in Assassin's Creed Odyssey?
@@christophjasinski4804 Posting links on the comment section is not allowed, so please check a UA-cam video I have just published called "Japanese Textbooks for Ancient Greek."
Thank you for this excellent overview of different textbooks and for the deliciously "crazy" idea of learning from many textbooks in parallel. I wonder, what is your opinion of Assimil's Le Grec Ancien?
Thanks fro watching and for the comment! I also know the Assimil course well. The audio is terrible, of course, absolutely horrid pronunciation - I wrote to them once offering to do a better job and they turned be down, haha - but the texts are short, digestible, and good Attic (this is the most important part, in my opinion; friends of mine who are Attic experts give the Assimil course high marks). I thought about incorporating that book into the spreadsheet, but it seemed a bit extraneous. Naturally, it has two big issues: you have to know French pretty well to learn anything from it, or you have to know Ancient Greek to some degree before starting. Ultimately, I find the line by line formatting exceedingly tedious. I'm not fond of the design of the Assimil books in general. But they're filled with gems. It just takes some digging.
@@polyMATHY_Luke , thank you very much for this reply! You mentioned Attic. Do any of the textbooks you discuss in the video have anything in Ionic or even mention Ionic? Or are they all based on Attic? And how much of Koine Greek is in these textbooks?
Many of them include Ionic, such as selections from Herodotus (Athenaze does this), as well as Homeric which is predominantly Ionic, such as in Thrasymachus. Athenaze (the English version) has short passages from the New Testament at the end of every chapter. There are many more in Ancient Greek Alive. Great stuff!
Dankeschön! The video comes at the right time. I will soon have to decide whether I study Latin at university or not. Here in Germany, where I live, the prerequisite for studying Latin is to have the state-certified Latinum and Graecum. The former is not the issue, as many children start to learn Latin at school when they are 12. But if I wanted to study it, Iʼd have to learn Ancient Greek in a single year. I donʼt know how to learn Greek on my own, but I donʼt want to waste years at university studying languages I will never find a job for : /
Hallo deutschermichel5807, es gibt an der Fernuniversität Hagen einen Altgriechisch Kurs, der 1 Jahr lang läuft. Natürlich mit Schwerpunkt Grammatik, aber es ist ein sehr gutes Skript und es gibt auch online Veranstaltungen. Bei Fragen bitte melden.
Thanks, Luke, for the video and your awesome work and content! I've been trying to learn koine Greek (in order to read the New Testament in the original) on and off for a couple years without making any noticeable progress. I've used a classical Biblical Greek handbook by John H. Dobson without real acquisition and I've also used Athenaze for a bit I haven't got very far. I'm used to using English language material although my mother tongue is Czech. I found the Logos textbook very appealing (they also have a great accompanying website). I was thinking that maybe some gaps in the approach could be filled by making picture flashcards and using a flashcards app like Anki. I find your approach inspiring and it helped to rouse my motivation. All the best!
Brilliant! Exactly what we've been looking for. We've been going through the Italian Athenaze in concert with the American, but I've often contemplated when I could/should reopen my Thrasymachus (and other books) as part of our studies. Thanks for doing the hard work for us!
Hi Luke! Do you think that translations of popular novels into ancient languages are helpful for learners? I hear that the Latin translations of The Hobbit and Harry Potter are quite popular (I think that there is now an Attic translation of Harry Potter as well). I thought they might be a helpful transition between the introductory readers and the classical texts. What do you think? Thank you so much for all your videos on Ancient Greek! I studied Attic when I was completing an M.A. in philosophy, but I let my skills start to atrophy when I transitioned out of academia. I’ve finally decided to study Greek again and I’ve found your videos extraordinarily helpful. I can’t thank you enough!
Do you have anything similar for modern Greek? I am a native Greek speaker but not at a high-level. I am learning by reading novels, watching movies, etc. but some grammatical instruction might be useful.
Really? Thanks! I’m using the spreadsheet order at this moment to read some of the later chapters of all these in my prescribed order to see if they make sense.
Yes, I’m following the spreadsheet and I watch this video and some others on this method to keep me motivated. I come from a grammar translate background, but this has been a great change. Also foundinantiquity has helped a ton as well.
It’s not ambiguous; Ancient Greek is Greek literature and spoken language of antiquity, which ends with the death of Justinian - an arbitrary but useful date. Koine and Classical Greek are two stages of the language.
Χαίρετε! Thank you for this video. I am not new to greek and can fluently read NT greek, but my knowledge is so far limited to Koine. I have been starting to push into more classical greek. I have in the last few weeks ordered most of the books you've mentioned because of articles and things I found on line, and you have given me a few more that I'm going to pick up. For a few weeks I have been attacking Athenaze in the UK first, then IT next approach, as it seemed the most natural way for me to take full advantage of the IT version. I had a question. I use the Koine Era Pronunciation (such as Benjamin Kantor uses), and have been reading through Athenaze (UK, and IT) in that, and noticed the vowel length symbols. I'd only ever seen those in LSJ. I'm not really sure yet what to do with those. Do you have a recommendation for a quick primer on how to utilize them? Also, are they a feature of the older pronunciation that would require me to learn a classical pronunciation to benefit from? If so, what would you recommend as the best source for an accurate historical Attic Greek pronunciation would be?
My experience: I started by myself in 2021 with Learning Greek, and some basic courses on Udemy and vídeos in UA-cam. It was too tough even from the first section that I couldn't continue. Then I bought the book Learn New Testament Greek by John Dobson and finaly I enhanced my ancient greek. I used these tools because they are avaiable in portuguese. Moreover I recommend the Learn New Testament Greek to start, it's a very straightfoward tool for beginners. Now I'm in the last but one section of Learning Greek and I see it's getting harder again. Before this vídeo I was already thinking in stoping and go to another book, such as Pharr's Homeric Greek and Greek Boy at Home, and this video came in a perfect time. Surely I will use this sheet. Thank you Luke.
Great! Yes, you're at the stage where you should try to read as much "easy" Greek as you can, such as in the readers I recommended, so as to gain fluency in reading. Then the hard stuff will become easy. Thanks for watching!
I respect this, but I'm gonna stick with my tested and true method of throwing the English pronunciation (I'm not native English) of an ancient Greek word at my Athenian Greek coworker, getting an annoyed correction on the pronunciation and arguing on etymology and vowel shift.
Your genius blows my mind. That said: What would you say to someone like myself who has been learning both Modern and Koine Greek sine 2019-20, who can't afford all of these books you've recommended here except some in PDf format (which I'm not a fan of) and is attempting to learn Ancient Greek with modern pronunciation? Also, as effective as I think this method may be, I find it very complex. I've entertained learning Modern Greek first to fluency and then going in reverse chronological order. However, I am eager to continue learning all Ancient Greek to go with my still intermediate Latin and have a preference for modern pronunciation, even though I am somewhat in contention with myself about just adopting a Lucian variant and placing Modern Greek on hold.
Well, I don't think you need all these books; use what you might have. Pronunciation is naturally not a factor; use what you like. Be an expert in a few, I recommend. You're the type who will benefit from such flexibility!
I have always wondered why no one has ever developed a series of graded primers and readers for biblical/classical languages in the tradition (or style) of McGuffey's Eclectic Readers series. For those who don't know, the McGuffey Eclectic Readers were developed by William Holmes McGuffey (and his brother Alexander Hamilton McGuffey). Originally comprised of a pictorial primer, a speller, a primer, and four graded readers (Alexander later added two more, the fifth and sixth readers), they became the standard English Language Arts curriculum for younger children (~grades 1-4) in American schools for over a century, and were sold from 1836-1960 (most know the revised edition of 1881, but I believe the originals are superior). They were the ELA counterpart to the Ray's Arithmeric series, which was far and away the standard mathematics curriclum in American schools at the same time. Once a student had successfully mastered the McGuffey readers, he or she would then move on to Harvey's Elementary Grammar and Composition (~grades 4-6), followed by Harvey's Revised English Grammar (~grades 7-8). History lesson aside, I always thought it would be great to take that same concept or _truly_ elementary texts (i.e., as if developed for literal children) and apply it to biblical and classical languages for new learners of those languages. Have a pictorial primer to introduce the letters and their sounds, and also the early but important vocabulary, and gradually introduce very small sentences. Then follow that up with a more advanced primer, and finally the graded readers. But all along way, insofar as is possible, introduce new vocabulary (and refresh old vocabulary) with colorful, very clear pictures instead of English glosses, and provide colorful illustrations that coincide with the readings so as to better aid comprehension of the text. And if they are released with audiobook versions (as part of the package and _not_ sold separately, or freely made available online/downloadable audio versions of each lesson/reading), students would have the ability to hear and acquire proper pronunciation naturally (and for Greek, no Erasmian, please). This would be especially beneficial for those self-taught learners who would have no fluent teacher personally available. Then, after mastering these readers (perhaps having to repeat lessons or individual volumes a few times), they could move on to grammars written in their target language. Latin learners could use the 16th century _De Institutione Grammaticae Libri Tres_ by Emmanuel Alvarez. He was an early Jesuit who created the grammar for the early Jesuits (since everyone really wanted an adequate alternative to Priscian), and it was quickly adopted as the official Latin grammar in Jesuit schools. I don't know what would be a suitable equivalent for ancient Greek. There's Dionysius Thrax's grammar which, from all appearances, is _the_ original grammar for any Western language, but he deals more wth Homeric Greek, no? Maybe there's a quality, extant grammar by a Byzantine grammarian lying around somewhere. Need to do some more sleuthing. Anyway, yeah, I think in lieu of anything resembling what I have described (which works for one's primary language, so why not for secondary languages?), I think the Robinson-Ranier method is a promising alternative. But I would caution not to dismiss the grammar-translation method entirely. If done well, it can and does work. Cicero himself used it to learn and teach Greek, and to teach Latin as the second language to others. His way of doing grammar-translation has been dubbed "the Ciceronian method," and the Jesuits themselves also employed it to learn the languages of all the different peoples they reached in their missions. So, despite the advances in our understanding of second language acquisition, Ciceronian grammar-translation is not without a hefty pedigree of literal millennia of success. I like the idea of a combined approach. Acquiring the language (vocabulary, pronunciation, fluency) itself through the natural means, but then also practicing the formal grammar (and perhaps also composition) through the Ciceronian method, working with quality exemplars from your target language.
Thank you for the schedule! I have a couple of books and also ordered logos. Probably a stupid Question I am also doing the downing method (I am still in the beginning so it’s still a long way to Tipperary) would you recommend to study all the paradigms before starting in the books?
Hi, if you plan on ordering “Ancient Greek Alive” you might have a similar experience to me: the author’s writing voice and teaching style is so charming, “human”, clear, etc that I have allowed myself to trust in her prescription for when to memorize paradigms. That is, when she says “now memorize this paradigm” I have committed to going by her cadence for when-to-memorize because I trust her.
@@jrcenina85 thank you for the tip. Unfortunately I haven’t bought that book and considering I have 4 other different textbooks for Ancient Greek (reading Greek, Athenaze (English version and Italian one, logos and Alexandros) I am not going to buy any extras. I am going to use them as described in the video. I had used Athenaze (English version) with a teacher (until chapter 8, but I did poorly) but that’s because I didn’t invest much time in it (I was also following some other courses about Ancient history and work). I am studying the paradigms and for the moment I am remembering them better than I thought possible.. it’s still very early days, but I bought the audiobooks and for the moment it helps. I never thought I could remember any Greek until know. I will see how far I go. Enjoy your language learning!
I think a useful addition to the spreadsheet would be to number all the columns (maybe call each one a βάθρον or ἴχνος) and then to list the books like this: Book Start End Logos 1 50 Athenaze 1 UK 4 28 Athenaze 1 Italian 4 28 Ancient Greek Alive 4 59 Alexandros 11 27 Thrasymachus 13 57 Reading Greek 13 67 Mythologica 18 27 Ephodion 1 24? 28 # I am not sure about the start as it seems only Chps. 13-16 are mentioned Athenaze 2 UK 29 53 Athenaze 2 Italian 29 53 Ephodion 2 29 53 A Greek Boy at Home 31 80 Cebetos Pinax 32 53 Column 1 is column C of the spreadsheet. This would allow the reader to easily (1) see what order to acquire the books in, and approximately when they need to, and (2) see roughly how much each book covers of the "course". This would be useful for those on a budget who either need to space out their purchases or be selective on which ones they get.
Συγχαριτήρια για την υπομονή , αλλά και την θέληση που έχετε διότι παρόλο που είστε απο άλλη χώρα όχι απλώς μαθένετε αρχαία Ελληνικά , αλλά επιλέγετε και δύσκολες διαλέκτους για να μαθετε , ενώ θα μπορούσατε ίσως να μάθετε την Αττική διάλεκτο ( την απλή γλώσσα του λαού πριν 2500 χρόνια όπως είναι τα νέα Ελληνικά σήμερα ) που είναι και η πιό εύκολη - διορθώστε με αν κάνω λάθος - ομολογώ ως Έλληνας οτι μένω έκπληκτος ! Ωστόσο ακόμη και τα "νέα Ελληνικά " έχουν σχέση με την αρχαία Ελληνική γλώσσα , και αν είναι αλήθεια αυτά που λένε οι Αμερικανοί επιστήμονες είναι κέρδος για κάποιον να μιλάει αρχαία Ελληνικά .
🏛 Learn Ancient Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and Old English at the Ancient Language Institute! Sign up today: ancientlanguage.com ⬅ 📜
Spreadsheet for the Ranieri-Roberts Approach to Ancient Greek:
bit.ly/ranieri-roberts-approach
Athenaze (US-UK) Book 1
amzn.to/496m9DK
Athenaze (US-UK) Book 2
amzn.to/4b8v9Kl
(N.B. I am only familiar with the Second Edition of the original English Athenaze (US-UK), linked above; I hear the Third Edition is vastly different and quite inferior, but I cannot confirm that from direct experience.)
Athenaze (Italy) Book 1
amzn.to/3UlpPxv
Athenaze (Italy) Book 2
amzn.to/498qRRp
Logos. Lingua Graeca: Λόγος. Ἑλληνική γλῶσσα
Amazon Spain: www.amazon.es/Logos-Lingua-Graeca-Λόγος-Ἑλληνική/dp/8494534661/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_es_ES=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2X6BQMKLHK79Q&keywords=logos+cultura+clasica&qid=1706304863&sprefix=logos+cultura+clasic%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-1
Alexandros
amzn.to/3UfrSmH
Mythologia
amzn.to/42g8zM3
Thrasymachus
amzn.to/4b6v4XP
Reading Greek: Text and Vocabulary
amzn.to/4b9x2GN
Reading Greek: Grammar and Exercises
amzn.to/4bq1QmX
An Independent Study Guide to Reading Greek
amzn.to/3Sx3Ge1
Rouse’s Greek Boy
amzn.to/3Sx3Odv
Ancient Greek Alive
amzn.to/3UbInjD
What are your thoughts on Alpha with Alexa?
Hi Luke, I’d like to learn ancient Greek and am considering a tutor. I tried one lesson and it went well but curious to know your thoughts on working with a tutor initially when I have no background in the language at all. Thanks!
For anyone wondering, I (random internet stranger) can vouch for this system of learning Ancient Greek. Started in mid-March 2024 with Logos and progressively started reading Ancient Greek Alive, Athenaze, Reading Greek and Thrasymachus (also read a few chapters of Alexandros, but I do not like the greek as much and so I will read it later).
I am currently at chapter 22 of Logos and I am mostly applying the system designed by Luke, works like a charm. I am super impressed with this method, even more so because the more I read (and re-read!) the simpler it becomes to understand even the new chapters.
I was shocked last night when I was reading chapters 4A and 4B in Reading Greek and could understand while reading "σκιας οναρ ανθρωπος".
Do not worry about the different vocabs in different books, you will end up knowing them already when they are introduced later in another book.
Extensive reading is the way.
Χαριν σοι εχο!
I started Athénaze some months ago with the help of some podcast on Spotify, and though I didn’t like it as much as LLPSI, I felt I was making progresses at a good pace. But then the podcast came to an end, and from chapter 5 things were getting harder. I was looking for another path to climb on, and then I fell upon your videos, talking about Logos and Alexandros. So yesterday I ran to my reference library, and I found the books very agreeable, so I decided to buy Logos, which caught me from the beginning. It’s funny, because I was just thinking about doing exactly the same thing you recommend on this video, and buy also Alexandros, and alternate the reading between both books and Athénaze. And then you come up with the Ranieri-Robertson method!
Thank you for all your work and your advices, Luke, you’re really a great inspiration, and I owe you the discovery of LLPSI and the willing to learn this wonderful language which is Ancient Greek.Greetings from Spain.
Sorry, I meant my reference bookshop, hahaha.
I'm really glad of the approach is useful! Give it a try, and post a new comment here in a few months reporting on your progress. Θάῤῥει! Keep up the good work and take heart! Gracias
I've fallen head over heels in love with this language and in large part I have you to thank for it. Been learning for a few months now and the accessibility and quality of the learning materials that exist today is really astounding. You're doing invaluable work.
That’s really nice of you to say; I feel like I’ve provided very little. I am planning a whole course of videos for ScorpioMartianus, much more ambitious than Ancient Greek in Action. I need to get on that.
This is absolutely amazing stuff. I forgot to go to sleep and stayed up watching this. Thank you from a language nerd
Yes, it's 3:33 AM. Should have gone to sleep long time ago.
Thanks for this, Luke! I've been learning Modern Greek for the past two years, in preparation to learn Ancient Greek. I'm about to kick off the method you recommend, starting with Logos!
I am a greek in my mid 30s and we were taught ancient Greek at school for at least 3-4 years. (1999-2003)
On final year we had to study Antigone.
But we were taught in the very worst possible way.
Like here is a weekly list of nouns and verbs you need to learn by heart how to conjugate them.
I bought the 1st volume of Cambridge Latin a while ago and the difference is staggering.
The fact that there are books trying to teach Greek and Latin using simplified dialogs and pictures
is amazing!
That's true! I definitely recommend the books I cited here to learn to become a fluent reader of Ancient Greek. Your suffering shall not have been in vain.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Dear Luke, thanks a lot for your help. I found your inspiring Channel just today; excuseme, How could I get some of these books? as where I come from it is very difficult to find them, leaving aside I am temporalily unemployed; maybe I might get them second hand through some friend living in USA. My native language is Spanish. Greetings from the underground!
isn’t it strange how they never teach us properly? they could literally just talk to kids in the language they want them to learn - it’s not that hard
I learnt to read Greek with two graded readers in parallel, Athenaze, Reading Greek and Zuntz for Greek, for Latin I only needed LLPSI and some supplementaries. In fact I used the Italian Version of Athenaze and glossed the Italian glosses with Latin glosses. Before I started I already knew Latin a Greek pretty well, but I wanted to get my reading up to speed and now it's pretty much on par with difficult texts in modern languages.
Haha very nice, I also glossed the Italian with Latin in Athenaze. It just made sense to me.
Luke, as usual, this is outstanding. I must say, I was surprised that you neglected to include the videos of your Ancient Greek Alive series in the spreadsheet as a lead-up to Athenaze.
Also, because this is intended for autodidactics, have you considered including the video content from Alpha with Angela?
Was there also a reason that you didn't include the Polis materials?
Additionally, Rouse also originally wrote "A Greek Reader" before writing "A Greek Boy at Home," and it is also "supposed" to go with his grammar.
Finally, have you considered Blackie's Primer orn his Dialogues for Schools and Colleges?
Even so, this is a fantastic resource that clearly took a very large number of hours to put together. Thank you for your service to the autodidactic ancient language learning community, and for making this resource freely available to all of us learning Greek on our own.
Also, as a postscript to this idea about adding in not just other kinds of books into the spreadsheet but media resources in general that include audio or immersive video material, I can only imagine how enjoyable it would be to get a general survey of the places in ancient Greece that the different stories take place in and to have these keyed in the chart somehow so that someone could recreationally spatially explore these sites in something like, say, Assassins Creed Odyssey and even use their immersive time in the game as a way to activate their language knowledge by describing what they are seeing in the settings around them. In general, it would further populate the imagination with images of carefully reconstructed features from ancient Greece and create a sense of adventure and ownership of the material by personalizing it beyond simply words on a page.
Hi Stephen, that's a fine question. In essence the Jonathan Roberts Approach is to facilite extensive reading (rather than intensive reading). Certainly you could augment your study program with any number of non-reading media, and all that is great and highly useful, even essential in some cases. It's just not what this approach pertains to.
Polis is a great book too, but is really only useful if 1) you're using it with a teacher who is using TPR with you in person or 2) you already know some Ancient Greek and you know how to do TPR (as I did when I picked up Polis) so you can make yourself do those commands and immagine interactions. I thought that went beyond the scope of the approach.
I'll look into Blackie's dialogues!
@@polyMATHY_Luke , That makes perfect sense. if you have a hard time locating a good clean copy of the second edition of Blackie's book of dialogues, just let me know. I was able to get one.
@@polyMATHY_Luke, as I've reflected on the Ranieri-Roberts approach, I thought of a couple other things that could be integrated with the plan.
First, regarding macronized Greek text, have you considered Anne Groton's From Alpha to Omega textbook? There's not exactly a ton of reading there, but it is nevertheless extra reading that has already been macronized. (She also has a supplemental reader, Forty-Six Stories in Classical Greek, but I haven't seen enough of this one to say whether it is also macronized.)
Second, regarding primary sources to weave into the plan, are you familiar with Dan Burling's reading plan from Biblical Mastery Academy that arranges the books of the New Testament from easiest to hardest according to vocabulary and syntax?
Were you to integrate the books of the New Testament according to this or a similar plan into the approach, it could prove highly motivating for readers to see at which point they would be ready to read various texts of the New Testament.
ua-cam.com/video/4RQBCRf6jH0/v-deo.htmlsi=V7cOkeeS6OsYq5uq
Hey Luke, love your stuff! I (and Im sure many others) would love to see you do a similar video on modern standard Italian and Latin respectively! Cheers!
Great suggestion. I'll do it.
@@polyMATHY_Lukethank you so much! would really be useful for us aspiring learners of either/both of those languages!
Thank you, Luke! I plan to use this method to teach my kids for their homeschool classical education.
I’d love to see Mark Jeong’s Greek Reader incorporated into this. It doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that other books have, but the beginning dialogues are easy, and there is plenty of repetition.
For anyone who has enjoyed this video as much as I have, you might take something from Found in Antiquity’s video on 5 strategies for learning Latin (see strategy 3 “The More the Merrier”) which is of course applicable to learning Ancient Greek. It’s basically the same strategy/method outlined here but something she says might be helpful to you.
Also, you might get something from Dr. Arguelles talking about using multiple intro textbooks for the sake of vocabulary acquisition.
Found In Antiquity: ua-cam.com/video/MIqmkpb1Pm4/v-deo.htmlsi=RDyAQoWa-aNQjKl2
Dr. Arguelles: ua-cam.com/video/Q_B0Xgd5Bdw/v-deo.htmlsi=e-k3aSihGl5pwXYA
Gratias magister Ranieri!! Great respect for your pedagogical passion. You could have been a great Benedictine monk! xD
Haha very kind
Αγαπητέ Λουκ Ρανιέρι,
Σας ευχαριστώ πολύ για το εξαιρετικό σας βίντεο. Αναρωτιέμαι γιατί δεν έχετε γράψει το δικό σας βιβλίο; Ή, ακόμα πιο εύκολο, γιατί δεν έχετε κάνει ένα podcast; Θα έπρεπε να κάνουμε ένα podcast που να εκμεταλλεύεται τις τεχνικές της «κατανοητής εισροής» και της «διαστήματος επανάληψης».
Με εκτίμηση,
Joseph
Care Luke Ranieri,
Tibi gratias ago pro tuo excellenti video. Cur non scripsisti tuum librum? Vel etiam facilius, cur non fecisti tuum podcast? Debemus facere podcast quod utitur technicis "comprehensibilis input" et "spatii repetitionis".
Cum reverentia,
Joseph
Caro Luke Ranieri,
Grazie mille per il tuo eccellente video. Mi chiedo perché non hai scritto il tuo libro? O, ancora più semplice, perché non hai fatto un podcast? Dovremmo fare un podcast che sfrutta le tecniche del "input comprensibile" e della "ripetizione spaziata".
Con stima,
Joseph
Oh my God man, it feels like this video was made for me.
Really? That’s great! After some time you’ve tried this approach, write a new comment with your impressions good or bad.
Next time I listen to The Magic Flute I’ll remember you.
That’s really nice
Does the equivalent of this video and info exist for learning Latin?
Check out the rest of this channel! No better place on the internet for information about learning Latin.
That’s kind of you, Sneed
And yes, I recommend Familia Romana. I haven’t yet attempted to integrate it with other books, as I haven’t found that necessary, but I will give it a shot.
I know that you have at least some Assimil recordings available on Patreon. Where would its lessons fit in here?
Hi Luke, to give you some advice, maybe you could introduce some archaic Greek letters like Ϝϝ, Ϙϙ and tell us guys how they are abolished through out times. This would be an interesting aspect on how the phonology of Greek envolvs 😊.
That is an interesting subject.
Well, it seems you have the spreadsheet for the wireframe for writing your own material now. :)
So, apparently, the answer to what reader i should use for Ancient Greek is "all of them."
A bit of a question. You mentioned a couple of more advanced readers, Ephodion and Cebetos Pinax. Where do i find those? There don't appear to be links for them in the description
Edit: i did find the former on Amazon, though the wait to get it is ridiculously long. The website kept on autocorrecting me and showing results for a medication.
Yes, it's hard because Vivarium Novum doesn't seem interested in re-publishing these great books. I got them in Italy.
Great video man! Thanks to you now I'm about to finish the edition of Ørberg of the Catilinae Oratio of Cicero and Salluster narration of it. I've started to study ancient greek by only using Athenaze, the italian version, and well it went well, but when the participle was introduced I got a huge problem understanding ahha so I decided to transcribe the other chapters until the point I got, but that's way too long and paintul to my hands hahaha so I guess i'm just gonna reread everything and maybe transcribing the shorter chapters. Thanks tho for the other suggestions:) such a shame they're not well punctuated.
Btw you should also recommend some ancient greek books that could be good to improve after these educative books. I mean, not textbooks but actual books originally made by people speaking this language.
Hi, thanks for the comment.
As to your question, all the books mentioned draw heavily from original Ancient Greek texts, such that some chapters and many readings have extensive amounts of authentic Attic and Koine and Homeric literature. Thus these books are the best place to start, as they guide you into these authentic texts rather gradually.
Is there a grammar companion for latin similar to "Ancient Greek Alive" which you could recommend?
Hello Luke, amazing video as always, very helpful. I was wondering if you've heard of Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek, and what opinion you have of it in such case. It's a bit more particular than the books you present in the video but - in my ignorance and will to learn this dialect - the author writes an apologia as an introduction defending this way of proceeding as an intro to Ancient Greek. Your opinion would be most appreciated. Saludos desde España.
Yes I know it. It's a G-T book, so it doesn't fit into the readers approach.
Gracias, gracias, gracias! El video es buenísimo y la cantidad de horas de trabajo que hay detrás! Sólo le falta una cosa, y es hablar de los audios disponibles, por ejemplo logos tiene audios con pronunciación moderna en el site de internet. Qué hay del resto? Se pueden adquirir en algún sitio? Un saludo
Thanks! Pardon if I respond in English; I understand Spanish quite well, but I need to practice writing in it before I embarrass myself publicly, haha.
Indeed, for Logos the audio is in the Modern Greek pronunciation because that seems to be the author's preference. If you'd like me to do it in Restored Classical Attic Pronunciation, you could ask Cultura Clásica to hire me to do so.
Great & exciting stuff Luke! Where (if at all) would you shoehorn in the Assimil Ancient Greek book?
Thanks! It's a fine supplement to all this; it doesn't really have an order that would fit with anything here, and unless you know French it's useless until you master all the vocabulary. So you could throw it after everything else.
Luke Luke, could you publish a list (spreadsheet 🤓😉) of all those words in in Logos that are shamefully macronless so I don’t have to look them all up or hoplessly wonder… 😥…Pretty please, pretty pretty pulcherrime καλος please…
Unfortunately that’s literally every other word, so no. But what you should do is write to Cultura Clásica, telling them you’ll buy their book if they include the macrons.
Lol - will do sir!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Done and sent!
Dear Sir/Madame
I recently bought 'Logos' by Santiago Martinez. I am learning Greek as an autodidact - outside of school. There are many aspects of the book that I like very much. There is one thing missing however that would be very helpful to me as a beginner - macrons marking the proper vowel lengths of words. As it is, I have to look it up in other books or online sources. This is quite tedious. Until I am an expert, I would hesitate to buy any more books teaching ancient Greek that did not have these marked.
Kind Regards,
Anne Smith
I think a video on double consonants in Greek is necessary.
He already discussed double consonants in his video on the letter zeta and his other video on Greek dialects.
Hi Luke, I was surprised by the omission of the assimil ancient greek course. I'm curious of your thoughts on the course.
It's got some good stuff, but it doesn't fit easily into the approach laid out here. I'd call it a good supplement. The layout of the book itself it's pretty awful, though, at least in the editions I've seen.
I saw a short convo in these comments between you, Luke, & @firstaidsack where they said that they put the macrons into Logos themself, & you guys were talking about its strengths & weaknesses, & you said that the change from LLPSI style to Alexandros style is jarring, but that Logos is good with a competent teacher, I think.
Do you recommend, then, Logos alone as a good option for not autodidacts but traditional students? I am hoping I can be considered an at least half competent teacher & I want to pick an ancient Greek textbook to teach high schoolers.
What do you think is going on when you can read and listen to a target language without translating and understand but are not so good at speaking the language? That’s my issue with Spanish but for Greek that would be a great place to be at.
Hi, how do you consider the ASSIMIL GRECO ANTICO (le Grec Ancien) approach ? It is "incomplete" but smooth and probably even lighter than any of theese books you just mentioned. It comes in French, Italian, German and possibly in English (not sure).
I was going to ask the same question.
A great question. I responded to another commenter below about this. The Attic style is very good in the Assiml course, and thus worthy of imitation (the audio is absolute garbage in pronunciation, of course, but not really the topic here).
But if you don't already know Ancient Greek, you have little chance of learning from it unless you know French, or look up every word in a dictionary. True, there is an English version, I forgot about that. Yet the formatting is horrid in general (the dividing into lines makes for difficult comprehension), and there are no quotation marks when characters speak. So it's valuable, but for the effort I would recommend Plato instead.
I might incorporate it in the future, but it definitely seemed quite extraneous compared to the other texts. Still, good suggestion.
There's an English version of the Assimil ancient Greek course? Where is this?
@@StephenHarrisJr Sorry my mistake, I now better remember that a few years ago someone did an English translation of the Assimil Latin book not the Greek. The Latin comes now officially in 3 languages and unofficially in 4 including English. The Greek one comes in French and Italian and possibly they will make it in German.
Probably the Greek English version he is referring to is another unofficial and hence is badly formatted but I've never seen it.
Hey Luke, I just bought Familia Romana and was wondering if it is a good idea to study Latin and Ancient Greek simultaneously or if Latin should be learned first.
That’s a fine question. The universal answer is: what you enjoy. Most likely, though, you will prefer to acquire fluency in reading Latin first via FR, which is such an amazing book; then when you wade through all the Greek readers you’ll have the confidence of having learned a difficult but easier language, knowing that eventually you will make it to the end.
Any advice on at what bookshop in Florence any of these books, especially Logos and Italian editions of Athenaze, might be found?
Love all your work. This is probably both the best and worst place to ask this, but does anybody here have any advice on how to learn a language with only a dictionary and a grammar book? Thanks
Thank you!
In effect, it is quite impossible to do what you’re looking for. You would learn *about* that language but never acquire it, never be able to read fluently in it.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks. I'm trying to learn Nuorese, I can already speak Italian (natively) and Piedmontese. I can generally understand Campidanese Sardinian, but all of the resources to learn Sardinian are about Limba Sarda Comune. Thanks anyway though.
Oh, Luke, how lucky we are to be your contemporaries rather than Leontios Pilatos'!
Molto gentile, Riccardo!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Talking about Calabrian Greeks... recently I've come across a book in Calabrian Greek ("Dialoghi greci di Calabria": I've discovered that I have a friend with Calabrian Greek roots... whose surname is Romeo!), and I've discovered something very interesting: often, in Italiot Greek, original ancient Greek /ps/ sound has shifted to /sp/ (e.g. γράψω has become gráspo). That does remind something also to you, doesn't it? Eheh! The same has happened two thousand years before to the /d͡z/ sound!
Does anyone know where to find Cebetos Pinax? I'd prefer a physical copy, but digital is also okay.
I'm still looking. Haven't even been able to find a digital copy
@@StrategicGamesEtc If you look up the Italian name 'La tavola di Cebète' you'll find it.
@@Philoglossos I tried that months ago, but the Vivarium Novum edition is "currently unavailable" on Amazon despite being linked from Vivarium Novum's website
Hello. I know the greek alphabet and i'm a bit familiar with greek because of my pontic greek background but unfortunately i read the greek alphabet slower than the latin alphabet. Is it possible to read greek alphabet as fast as a native? If so what would you recommend for people like me to do?
Ωραία! Absolutely you can. This technique is incredibly helpful for getting better at reading in general, and will definitely help you acquire the Greek alphabet like a native: ua-cam.com/video/JTWKpNy96EM/v-deo.htmlsi=nyHY5KOipMo6zsOD
My problem with ancient languages like Latin, Greek (ancient and koine) and ancient Hebrew is they are all focused on reading and understanding vocabulary - all is passive. I need workbooks to write in Latin and Greek to make progress and all these books have very little of it.
I hear you, but this is how CI (comprehensible input) works as a concept: you receive input, and you need tons of comprehensible input, receiving correct modelling, in order to produce output. When should you produce output? Whenever you feel like it! Later is just as good as now, but nothing is stopping you from using something like the Ephemeris Technique: ua-cam.com/video/S-g1dnN2WCM/v-deo.htmlsi=AoQrSChXnxlKkmDA
with which you can model any of the texts you read, and write something more personal in that style or using that vocabulary.
That said, most of the textbooks mentioned in the video have output based exercises and workbooks (I showed the one for Logos in this video), including Alexandros and Thrasymachus and Athenaze.
@@polyMATHY_Luke
Thanks for the answer and for video. I'll try this approach.
yeah, Diálogos: Prácticas de Griego antiguo seems to have lots of exercises. I need to buy it. Do you know something similar for Latin?
No Jeong??? Woooow
I haven't put my hands on it yet. It sounds like a nice text.
Why have we all been brought up to say Πυθάγορας when it should be Πυθαγόρας?
Because we inherit our Greek vocabulary via Latin, and the Latin name is Pythagorās; moreover, Latin has different rules for accenting words, and in this word the English accents the same syllable as in Latin.
Talking ancient Greek is like carrying coal to Newcastle as Greek is spoken today. It did not have to be reinstalled as a language when the Kingdom of Greece was founded in 1830.
But honestly, the macrons are just unnecessary noise on the text and it was never really written on the words either
They were indeed frequently written; and in any case, modern spelling conventions like capital vs. lowercase letters, punctuation, and the standardized accent system are all modern.
interesting, I didn't really know that they were written. I'm going to look it up, thanks
@@polyMATHY_Luke
what's this autodidact? Can you drive it fast?
Wait... Is it the reason Luke himself was into Helicopters???
Χαχα
Alternatively, grab a greek dictionary and learn all the words. After two years you'll be able to read anything. That was my way
I own Alexandros, Athenaze, and Logos. I already found myself using Logos for about nine or ten chapters and then returning to Athenaze to test my progress. I’m glad to see that I was doing it right!
How great! Well, I don't know if this approach is "right," but I can say it was right for *me* and could be for others too.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Of course! I do have a question concerning audio: I cannot find any for Logos. If I were to follow this approach, that would mean that I am getting little to no Greek audio. Here's an example: if I work through the first ten chapters of Logos, I don't get audio until I decide to listen to Athenaze ch.1. How would you advise me to address this issue? I listen to yourself and Mr. Stratakis; however, I cannot help but feel that my pronunciation is simply bad, especially in regard to pitch accent. Plus there's the bouncing back and forth between your Samosotene Lucian and Mr. Stratakis' Classical Athenian recordings. Do I simply listen to other chapters, even if I don't understand what's being said? Please, do not mistake my screed for a complaint; I simply want to acquire Ancient Greek in an effective manner: that Kraken isn't going to summon itself!
I apologize and take responsibility for any grammatical mistakes---Hypnos has overcome me.
P.S. I’ve been told that I have a particular set skills, skills that allow me to sound just like a certain Northern Irish Zeus. Will being able to somewhat affect a Northern Irish brogue help in my cephalopodean activities? Is it essential to acquiring the mythic perfect pitch accent? An inquiring mind wants to know.
Thanks again for all of your passion and hard work. It’s daggumb infectious.
@@davidross2004You don't have to constantly switch between Attic and Lucian Koiné pronunciations. You can speak normally in whatever pronunciation you are using and follow these simple rules to observe pitch accents. That is, after an accented syllable, the next syllable is lower in pitch. If a word ends with an accented syllable, that syllable is higher-pitched.
@@Brandon55638 Thanks! I think that I still struggle with determining whether I am using a pitch accent or a stress accent.
Any chance you’ll combine this method with the videos you’ve created? (ie Watch these videos in this column)
I can't express how happy I am to have found your channel. I majored in linguistics in undergraduate and graduate school. I found the books Lingua Latina by chance in the university library! I am so grateful for Mr. Renaissance Man Ranieri!
Very kind. I'm no Renaissance man - I'm not even a polymath, though I like the title of the channel for its own sake - but I enjoy challenging myself.
Your contributions on ancient Greek learning and phonology are truly outstanding. I always recommend your work on this subject to everyone.
Several months ago I ended up getting stuck on chapter 25 of the Italian version of Athenaze and felt that I was just learning a bunch of grammar concepts without it improving my reading. I hope this will help me move forward.
I'm really happy to hear if this was a well timed video! I understand how you feel; I had the same experience the first time I read Chapter 25 of Athenaze - what the heck was that? I asked myself. Haha, in fact I asked myself that several times when reading the Italy version of the book.
If in time (weeks or months) you find this approach useful, please write a new comment here! (I don't always see responses to comments.)
Excellent video. Unfortunately, the supply of resources for autodidacts learning Sanskrit (the main classical language I am currently learning) is somehow worse than what is available for ancient greek, but this methodology does give me hope, especially once I manage to track down all the reader/ci style resources that are available (not much it seems at the moment).
Thanks for the comment. An interesting problem! Perhaps you should write the next one.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I'm not anywhere near that level yet, but I'd love to once I am. Unfortunately grammar-translation dominates to a much larger extent than in Latin or Greek, and a lot of resources assume either knowledge of Hindi or a background in comparative linguistics with Latin and Ancient Greek. As a South Indian from Tamil Nadu with only a cursory knowledge of Latin, I am neither.
Taught myself classical Chinese then Japanese about five years ago through the used of graded readers (l did this after learning both the modern languages which made it easier).
Had the urge to learn ancient Greek last year -- made the mistake of picking up the Hansen and Quinn textbook. Worked through about 300 pages or so and got crushed by the tedious grammar exercises. Realized somewhat ironically how lucky I was starting with ancient Chinese (no conjugations / declensions / moods ).
Been feeling the motivation the past few months to give ancient Greek another shot. This video was the perfectly timed. Can't wait to give this method a try!
Good timing then! Yes, I felt similarly blocked by the relatively friendly Athenaze. Please let me know how you get on! It's usually best to write a new comment in case I miss a reply to an existing comment.
What are the best graded readers for Classical Chinese?
@@Philoglossossecond this ask ^^ would love to know
Amazing! I’ve been reading all of these already but without a map.
I will follow your suggested order and return with comments and observations!
Thanks again, my friend!
Thank you! I look forward to reading them
Hey, Luke! Once again I want to say hands down that you have been more of a teacher to me than any of my teachers at school. I’m a native Greek, but don’t know Ancient Greek well, as the way it was taught at school was disgraceful to say the least.
What would you recommend for native Greek speakers as autodidacts? Most of the books you showed were easy for me to understand without needing to translate - of course, I am referring to the first simple chapters, not the later ones where translations and grammar hit you like the gods hit mortals 😂
I have the US/UK Athenaze, Logos, and Alexandros. Should I follow your document as it provides amazing structure, even if some things I know/are similar to Modern Greek? I do aim on buying the rest of the books eventually and hopefully at some point in the future, understanding the language of our ancestors perfectly.
PS: I love your accent and the correct Classical pronunciation! Thanks again, διδάσκαλε!
Γεια σου, Αλέξανδρε! Ευχαριστώ πολύ!
I would recommend the same books for a native speaker of Modern Greek, since the idiom and vocabulary, as well as the grammar, are drammatically different, in beautiful ways that you'll love! It sounds like the books you already have will be more than enough to help you achieve fluency. Follow the spreadsheet, and then please report back here with a new comment (I don't always see replies to existing comments) to tell us if you think it was useful or not.
Thanks for the generous compliment about my accent. I also am very fond of the Classical Attic Pronunciation, and I'll be using it more in videos and audiobooks. I am also studying Modern Greek so as to make my intonation and other aesthetic features sound more like you Greeks, while still maintaining the characteristics of the ancient pronunciation. Which isn't easy, but worth trying: ἄξιόν ἐστι πειρᾶσθαι!
Χάριν σοι οἶδα.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Idk, looking for things that *might* have stayed the same does seem like a noble effort in the eternal search of perfection, but the likelihood that the intonation was much like that of Modern Greek seems rather small to me, given how dramatically different the whole prosodic system was in Ancient Greek. Even the purely intonational sides of the documented ancient pitch accent system seem like a very different beast from Modern Greek intonation as far as I can tell. I suppose the fact that Modern Greek most commonly has a rising tone in a stressed syllable could be tied to the old acute, but the all-important fall in the next syllable forming the 'contonation' posited by Allen and others doesn't seem to be there. Perhaps Modern Greek can at least be helpful as an example of a 'non-flexible accent language' that, unlike English, expresses focus without deaccenting, which Ancient Greek seems likely to have been as well. But in general, the common intuitive notion that intonation is this mystical essence or soul of the language that changes less in history than other features is unwarranted. Just comparing the melodies of a couple of closely related Scandinavian dialects shows how much it has been able to change since the Viking Age, over a much shorter time period than the attested history of Greek. Ditto for various mannerisms. *Nothing* really stays the same, when enough time is given. Which is probably the only reason why we see so many seemingly mutually 'unrelated' languages today on Earth in the first place.
I have been doing this (Version One - reading or studying as far as I could go and then switching to another text) for Koine Greek. I was beginning to think I had been wasting my time, but now I'm looking at textts that I struggled with and I'm reading without translating.
This is wonderful!
1:01:32 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Absolutely hilarious.
Hahah. My colleagues and I make jokes like this all the time. It’s a dark irony about the language, or at least the books
Great content, insight, and help as usual Luke, thank you! I selfishly hope you will make audio recordings for Logos soon! 😁
Many thanks!
You could perhaps include VN's Odyssey and, especially as you've recorded it, Macdonald's LGPSI.
Oh dear Luke, where were you 40 years ago when this girl was starving for real nourishment of mind, body, soul, spirit ? Oh😮 still in the heavens, aether to be formed for me / us now...❤
What are you talking about
@@jakelamotta7904 herself
i feel this so much. how does life pass us so quickly only to move on without us?
I absolutely loved the video
Thanks for watching it! It’s a super specific and kind of technical video, so I’m pleased if it’s useful to those hunting that dream of learning Ancient Greek.
Clyde Pharr's "Homeric Greek" is yet another book with every long vowel generally marked with a macron.
Excellent
You called? lol!
Would you still recommend learning grammar the way you suggested in the Rainieri Downling Method before using this newer approach or is it meant to replace it?
Great question. These are different methods/approaches that are entirely compatible. The Dowling Method (for Latin, but equally applicable here) is to memorize all the declensions before starting an extensive reading campaign. In practice you could memorize the paradigms as you go, or whenever you like.
I recommend the Ranieri-Dowling Method for anyone who has the energy and desire to do it. Even a partial memorization early on can be really helpful.
thank you for making this available to everyone. you're the man.
I did Hansen and Quinn, and i can tell you, I never did anything more difficult in my entire life. Probably never will
So I have heard! I don’t have much familiarity with that book, but the effects of grammar-translation are usually quite negative on most students.
What do you think of Ancient Greek: A 21st Century Approach by Phillip S. Peek on Open Textbook Library?
È un ottimo metodo! Voglio imparare anche io il greco così! Ci prendiamo un anno sabbatico per metterlo in pratica in una bella villa a Capri? ❤😍
Che bell’idea, dolcezza mia irenica! 🌹❤️
Hello! All the Logos books I see online appear to be the first edition. How can we know we are getting the edited version that you show in the video? Thanks!
One of the books I've been utilizing, "Teach Yourself Ancient Greek" by Gavin Betts and Alan Henry, actually has vowel length marked with macrons.
That sounds like a great book then! Thanks for the recommendation
@@polyMATHY_Luke It is actually very good, ut mihi vidētur, for someone like yourself that has utilized all those other materials successfully and has attained a high degree of fluency!
Hi, can you please tell me which edition you have because I have the 2 older editions, the first from 1989 (blue cover) and the second from 1993, both editions don't have macrons on long vowels but hopefully the later editions do. There are at least 4 or 5 newer editions the very last one from 2021. If you confirm that it has long vowels I''l buy it. Thank you
Dīxistī convertere nōn est discere, sed pellicullae tuae (in quibus linguam Graecam Chritopherō docēs) multum mihi docuērunt, etsī in illīs convertistis. Pessimum nōn est convertere meā sententiā.
Vērum est nōs nōnnumquam vertisse sententiās vel vocābula ejus librī, praecipuē quod Alexandros liber, ut suprā in pelliculā dīxī, "comprehensible input" nōn est. Tamen, dēfendō nōs etiam Latīnē saepiculē vertisse, proptereāquod, aliā linguā ūtentēs sed Graecae similiōre, melius haerent nōbīs verba ita facientēs, quam sī facerēmus Anglicē. Nihilō minus, plērumque locōs intellēximus Graecē, nōn vertentēs Latīnē.
Prāvum quod contemnō est vertere vertendī causā. Hoc nocet.
Thank you Luke, I wish I’d seen this 5 years ago! I crawled my way autodidactically through the JACTs book. I‘ve since gone back to scratch with the John Taylor reading Greek book, having recognised that my basic grammar was patchy and confused, and found it is much clearer there. I’m loving rouse’s Greek boy since you got me onto it. It’s a lovely read and very charming. I can occasionally read a page of an original attic Greek text but it’s a bit of a fluke and the next page I might be lost at sea
It's surprising that there are level of Ancient Greek that you can learn after going through Book I and Book II of Athenaze. 😀
True! Athenaze Book I and II are quite comprehensive, but require ancillary support to be more pedagogically viable, in my opinion.
Readers I'd suggest adding:
The First Year of Greek by James Turney Allen
Elementary Greek Translation by Hillard and Botting
Any chance of a ΛΟΓΟΣ ebook any time soon? I really need the ability to search for the first use of a word. I emailed the author and publisher, and they said they didnt have any current plans, any idea if that has changed?
A fair question! An e-book like you imagine would be a difficult prospect. I think it would be helpful if they added an index like Familia Romana had with every word’s first occurrence cited by chapter and line number. And also macrons, heh.
12:08 😂 Sweet home Alabama.
Haha
Although uncomplete, I found Seumas MacDonald's* Lingua Graeca per se Illustrata a useful supplement/accompaniment with the other core books. Maybe it could be considered for addition to the (excellent) spreadsheet. :D.
*edit: who I just found out is Mr Patrologist. (Who also writes that he will be continuing on LGPSI this year :DD)
I'm a big fan of Seumas and his LGPSI too! I didn't include it since it's still undergoing quite a few revisions. Perhaps I should make a list of honorable mentions that haven't yet made their way into the spreadsheet's matrix?
One likely way to help (though not completely) with the Italian Ephodia is to use Google Translate's camera auto-translate. It won't be perfect, but should help to get the gist of the explanation. It will probably struggle with grammar terms, though I could be wrong.
That’s an interesting idea. But Google translate doesn’t recognize Ancient Greek, so whatever it translates is invariably garbage, since it interprets it through Modern Greek. It also “knows” Latin but does an equally awful job.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Ah, I mean for the Italian explanations, not for the Ancient Greek.
Very helpful video, thank you! The Logos book isn't available on that Amazon link and I can't find it on the publisher's website. Do you have any idea where else to find it?
Right you are! Here it is from the Spanish Amazon: www.amazon.es/Logos-Lingua-Graeca-Λόγος-Ἑλληνική/dp/8494534661/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_es_ES=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2X6BQMKLHK79Q&keywords=logos+cultura+clasica&qid=1706304863&sprefix=logos+cultura+clasic%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-1
Just throwing this out there, one thing I struggle with greek is not actually the complex verb and noun mutations (the books do a good job covering them), but the particles and sometimes the prepositions which govern like all (3 out of 4 (5)) cases, and the books in my experience could do alot better on those fronts. (Cant speak for Logos though)
True! Yes, Logos is no exception. I think the extensive reading that the approach provides is helpful to help one develop an intuitive sense of the particles and μὲν δὲ etc.
I have bought a few Japanese books that teach ancient Greek, solely because I wanted to check how they try to teach a language very different to Japanese. Interestingly, one book has the peculiarity of teaching both Latin and Greek at the same time.
By the way, is there any book that explains the dialogues of NPCs in Assassin's Creed Odyssey?
Do you have some links to Amazon Japan for this? Just to satisfy my curiosity 😊
@@christophjasinski4804
Posting links on the comment section is not allowed, so please check a UA-cam video I have just published called "Japanese Textbooks for Ancient Greek."
How cool! I don't have any of the Amazon Japan links. If you find them, feel free to post them in the comments!
Omg such a timely video, thank you! Taking Classical Greek online@ the U of Athens---because I was too late for ALI registration 😅
I’m glad if you find it helpful!
Thank you for this excellent overview of different textbooks and for the deliciously "crazy" idea of learning from many textbooks in parallel. I wonder, what is your opinion of Assimil's Le Grec Ancien?
Thanks fro watching and for the comment! I also know the Assimil course well. The audio is terrible, of course, absolutely horrid pronunciation - I wrote to them once offering to do a better job and they turned be down, haha - but the texts are short, digestible, and good Attic (this is the most important part, in my opinion; friends of mine who are Attic experts give the Assimil course high marks). I thought about incorporating that book into the spreadsheet, but it seemed a bit extraneous.
Naturally, it has two big issues: you have to know French pretty well to learn anything from it, or you have to know Ancient Greek to some degree before starting.
Ultimately, I find the line by line formatting exceedingly tedious. I'm not fond of the design of the Assimil books in general. But they're filled with gems. It just takes some digging.
@@polyMATHY_Luke , thank you very much for this reply! You mentioned Attic. Do any of the textbooks you discuss in the video have anything in Ionic or even mention Ionic? Or are they all based on Attic? And how much of Koine Greek is in these textbooks?
Many of them include Ionic, such as selections from Herodotus (Athenaze does this), as well as Homeric which is predominantly Ionic, such as in Thrasymachus. Athenaze (the English version) has short passages from the New Testament at the end of every chapter. There are many more in Ancient Greek Alive. Great stuff!
Dankeschön! The video comes at the right time. I will soon have to decide whether I study Latin at university or not. Here in Germany, where I live, the prerequisite for studying Latin is to have the state-certified Latinum and Graecum. The former is not the issue, as many children start to learn Latin at school when they are 12. But if I wanted to study it, Iʼd have to learn Ancient Greek in a single year. I donʼt know how to learn Greek on my own, but I donʼt want to waste years at university studying languages I will never find a job for : /
Hallo deutschermichel5807,
es gibt an der Fernuniversität Hagen einen Altgriechisch Kurs, der 1 Jahr lang läuft. Natürlich mit Schwerpunkt Grammatik, aber es ist ein sehr gutes Skript und es gibt auch online Veranstaltungen. Bei Fragen bitte melden.
Bitte schön! If you have the time, I think it's possible to do the curriculum I set out here in 1 year.
The spreadsheet is really well done
Thank you!
Thanks, Luke, for the video and your awesome work and content! I've been trying to learn koine Greek (in order to read the New Testament in the original) on and off for a couple years without making any noticeable progress. I've used a classical Biblical Greek handbook by John H. Dobson without real acquisition and I've also used Athenaze for a bit I haven't got very far. I'm used to using English language material although my mother tongue is Czech. I found the Logos textbook very appealing (they also have a great accompanying website). I was thinking that maybe some gaps in the approach could be filled by making picture flashcards and using a flashcards app like Anki. I find your approach inspiring and it helped to rouse my motivation. All the best!
Brilliant! Exactly what we've been looking for. We've been going through the Italian Athenaze in concert with the American, but I've often contemplated when I could/should reopen my Thrasymachus (and other books) as part of our studies. Thanks for doing the hard work for us!
Awesome! I’m really glad. I find this to be a very effective approach. Enjoy.
Hi Luke! Do you think that translations of popular novels into ancient languages are helpful for learners? I hear that the Latin translations of The Hobbit and Harry Potter are quite popular (I think that there is now an Attic translation of Harry Potter as well). I thought they might be a helpful transition between the introductory readers and the classical texts. What do you think?
Thank you so much for all your videos on Ancient Greek! I studied Attic when I was completing an M.A. in philosophy, but I let my skills start to atrophy when I transitioned out of academia. I’ve finally decided to study Greek again and I’ve found your videos extraordinarily helpful. I can’t thank you enough!
Do you have anything similar for modern Greek? I am a native Greek speaker but not at a high-level. I am learning by reading novels, watching movies, etc. but some grammatical instruction might be useful.
I watch this video once a week…
Really? Thanks! I’m using the spreadsheet order at this moment to read some of the later chapters of all these in my prescribed order to see if they make sense.
Yes, I’m following the spreadsheet and I watch this video and some others on this method to keep me motivated. I come from a grammar translate background, but this has been a great change. Also foundinantiquity has helped a ton as well.
"Ancient Greek" is ambiguous between Classical Greek and New Testament Greek.
It’s not ambiguous; Ancient Greek is Greek literature and spoken language of antiquity, which ends with the death of Justinian - an arbitrary but useful date. Koine and Classical Greek are two stages of the language.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you for the correction.
Χαίρετε! Thank you for this video. I am not new to greek and can fluently read NT greek, but my knowledge is so far limited to Koine. I have been starting to push into more classical greek. I have in the last few weeks ordered most of the books you've mentioned because of articles and things I found on line, and you have given me a few more that I'm going to pick up. For a few weeks I have been attacking Athenaze in the UK first, then IT next approach, as it seemed the most natural way for me to take full advantage of the IT version.
I had a question. I use the Koine Era Pronunciation (such as Benjamin Kantor uses), and have been reading through Athenaze (UK, and IT) in that, and noticed the vowel length symbols. I'd only ever seen those in LSJ. I'm not really sure yet what to do with those. Do you have a recommendation for a quick primer on how to utilize them? Also, are they a feature of the older pronunciation that would require me to learn a classical pronunciation to benefit from? If so, what would you recommend as the best source for an accurate historical Attic Greek pronunciation would be?
If a person knows Spanish relatively well, Italian is rather understandable, so the Italian books of Athenaze could work for them.
That’s true. If I’m not mistaken, the original Athenaze had a Spanish version.
@@polyMATHY_Luke oh.... Is it as good as the Italian version?
Χάριν έχω, ὦ διδάσκαλε! Μάλα γὰρ ἥδομαι τῃ Ἑλληνικῇ γλῶττῃ. Τοῦτο δὲ ερωτᾶν βούλομαι: Ρῶς γράφεται Ἑλληνικῶς απὸ το φῶνον; "Keyboard" Ἑλληνικὸν μὲν έχω, νέον δέ εστιν, ὥστε οὐ δυνατόν εστιν τῃ ἀρχαῖᾳ γλῶττῃ γράφειν. (Συγνώμην έχετε εἰ σφάλματα τινά εστιν έν τῃ ἐπιστολῇ μου.)
Χαῖρε καὶ σύ γε! Τὸ πληκτρολόγιον ἐμὸν ὑπολογιστικὸν Sophokeys ὀνομαζόμενον κάλλιστον ποιεῖ ἔργον ἐν τῷ ἐμῷ Mac.
My experience: I started by myself in 2021 with Learning Greek, and some basic courses on Udemy and vídeos in UA-cam. It was too tough even from the first section that I couldn't continue. Then I bought the book Learn New Testament Greek by John Dobson and finaly I enhanced my ancient greek. I used these tools because they are avaiable in portuguese. Moreover I recommend the Learn New Testament Greek to start, it's a very straightfoward tool for beginners.
Now I'm in the last but one section of Learning Greek and I see it's getting harder again. Before this vídeo I was already thinking in stoping and go to another book, such as Pharr's Homeric Greek and Greek Boy at Home, and this video came in a perfect time. Surely I will use this sheet. Thank you Luke.
Great! Yes, you're at the stage where you should try to read as much "easy" Greek as you can, such as in the readers I recommended, so as to gain fluency in reading. Then the hard stuff will become easy. Thanks for watching!
I respect this, but I'm gonna stick with my tested and true method of throwing the English pronunciation (I'm not native English) of an ancient Greek word at my Athenian Greek coworker, getting an annoyed correction on the pronunciation and arguing on etymology and vowel shift.
lol
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 That's so hilarious!
i feel like i need to completely relearn ancient greek and latin bc i was taught by just translating everything 😭
Your genius blows my mind.
That said: What would you say to someone like myself who has been learning both Modern and Koine Greek sine 2019-20, who can't afford all of these books you've recommended here except some in PDf format (which I'm not a fan of) and is attempting to learn Ancient Greek with modern pronunciation? Also, as effective as I think this method may be, I find it very complex. I've entertained learning Modern Greek first to fluency and then going in reverse chronological order. However, I am eager to continue learning all Ancient Greek to go with my still intermediate Latin and have a preference for modern pronunciation, even though I am somewhat in contention with myself about just adopting a Lucian variant and placing Modern Greek on hold.
Well, I don't think you need all these books; use what you might have. Pronunciation is naturally not a factor; use what you like. Be an expert in a few, I recommend. You're the type who will benefit from such flexibility!
@@polyMATHY_Luke καλή απόκρισις! Χάριν σοὶ!
I have always wondered why no one has ever developed a series of graded primers and readers for biblical/classical languages in the tradition (or style) of McGuffey's Eclectic Readers series.
For those who don't know, the McGuffey Eclectic Readers were developed by William Holmes McGuffey (and his brother Alexander Hamilton McGuffey). Originally comprised of a pictorial primer, a speller, a primer, and four graded readers (Alexander later added two more, the fifth and sixth readers), they became the standard English Language Arts curriculum for younger children (~grades 1-4) in American schools for over a century, and were sold from 1836-1960 (most know the revised edition of 1881, but I believe the originals are superior). They were the ELA counterpart to the Ray's Arithmeric series, which was far and away the standard mathematics curriclum in American schools at the same time. Once a student had successfully mastered the McGuffey readers, he or she would then move on to Harvey's Elementary Grammar and Composition (~grades 4-6), followed by Harvey's Revised English Grammar (~grades 7-8).
History lesson aside, I always thought it would be great to take that same concept or _truly_ elementary texts (i.e., as if developed for literal children) and apply it to biblical and classical languages for new learners of those languages. Have a pictorial primer to introduce the letters and their sounds, and also the early but important vocabulary, and gradually introduce very small sentences. Then follow that up with a more advanced primer, and finally the graded readers. But all along way, insofar as is possible, introduce new vocabulary (and refresh old vocabulary) with colorful, very clear pictures instead of English glosses, and provide colorful illustrations that coincide with the readings so as to better aid comprehension of the text.
And if they are released with audiobook versions (as part of the package and _not_ sold separately, or freely made available online/downloadable audio versions of each lesson/reading), students would have the ability to hear and acquire proper pronunciation naturally (and for Greek, no Erasmian, please). This would be especially beneficial for those self-taught learners who would have no fluent teacher personally available.
Then, after mastering these readers (perhaps having to repeat lessons or individual volumes a few times), they could move on to grammars written in their target language. Latin learners could use the 16th century _De Institutione Grammaticae Libri Tres_ by Emmanuel Alvarez. He was an early Jesuit who created the grammar for the early Jesuits (since everyone really wanted an adequate alternative to Priscian), and it was quickly adopted as the official Latin grammar in Jesuit schools.
I don't know what would be a suitable equivalent for ancient Greek. There's Dionysius Thrax's grammar which, from all appearances, is _the_ original grammar for any Western language, but he deals more wth Homeric Greek, no? Maybe there's a quality, extant grammar by a Byzantine grammarian lying around somewhere. Need to do some more sleuthing.
Anyway, yeah, I think in lieu of anything resembling what I have described (which works for one's primary language, so why not for secondary languages?), I think the Robinson-Ranier method is a promising alternative.
But I would caution not to dismiss the grammar-translation method entirely. If done well, it can and does work. Cicero himself used it to learn and teach Greek, and to teach Latin as the second language to others. His way of doing grammar-translation has been dubbed "the Ciceronian method," and the Jesuits themselves also employed it to learn the languages of all the different peoples they reached in their missions. So, despite the advances in our understanding of second language acquisition, Ciceronian grammar-translation is not without a hefty pedigree of literal millennia of success. I like the idea of a combined approach. Acquiring the language (vocabulary, pronunciation, fluency) itself through the natural means, but then also practicing the formal grammar (and perhaps also composition) through the Ciceronian method, working with quality exemplars from your target language.
Extremely well said. I second your dislike of Erasmian pronunciation.
Thank you for the schedule! I have a couple of books and also ordered logos. Probably a stupid Question I am also doing the downing method (I am still in the beginning so it’s still a long way to Tipperary) would you recommend to study all the paradigms before starting in the books?
Hi, if you plan on ordering “Ancient Greek Alive” you might have a similar experience to me: the author’s writing voice and teaching style is so charming, “human”, clear, etc that I have allowed myself to trust in her prescription for when to memorize paradigms. That is, when she says “now memorize this paradigm” I have committed to going by her cadence for when-to-memorize because I trust her.
@@jrcenina85 thank you for the tip. Unfortunately I haven’t bought that book and considering I have 4 other different textbooks for Ancient Greek (reading Greek, Athenaze (English version and Italian one, logos and Alexandros) I am not going to buy any extras. I am going to use them as described in the video. I had used Athenaze (English version) with a teacher (until chapter 8, but I did poorly) but that’s because I didn’t invest much time in it (I was also following some other courses about Ancient history and work). I am studying the paradigms and for the moment I am remembering them better than I thought possible.. it’s still very early days, but I bought the audiobooks and for the moment it helps. I never thought I could remember any Greek until know. I will see how far I go. Enjoy your language learning!
I think a useful addition to the spreadsheet would be to number all the columns (maybe call each one a βάθρον or ἴχνος) and then to list the books like this:
Book Start End
Logos 1 50
Athenaze 1 UK 4 28
Athenaze 1 Italian 4 28
Ancient Greek Alive 4 59
Alexandros 11 27
Thrasymachus 13 57
Reading Greek 13 67
Mythologica 18 27
Ephodion 1 24? 28 # I am not sure about the start as it seems only Chps. 13-16 are mentioned
Athenaze 2 UK 29 53
Athenaze 2 Italian 29 53
Ephodion 2 29 53
A Greek Boy at Home 31 80
Cebetos Pinax 32 53
Column 1 is column C of the spreadsheet.
This would allow the reader to easily (1) see what order to acquire the books in, and approximately when they need to, and (2) see roughly how much each book covers of the "course". This would be useful for those on a budget who either need to space out their purchases or be selective on which ones they get.
Very cool idea!
Συγχαριτήρια για την υπομονή , αλλά και την θέληση που έχετε διότι παρόλο που είστε απο άλλη χώρα όχι απλώς μαθένετε αρχαία Ελληνικά , αλλά επιλέγετε και δύσκολες διαλέκτους για να μαθετε , ενώ θα μπορούσατε ίσως να μάθετε την Αττική διάλεκτο ( την απλή γλώσσα του λαού πριν 2500 χρόνια όπως είναι τα νέα Ελληνικά σήμερα ) που είναι και η πιό εύκολη - διορθώστε με αν κάνω λάθος - ομολογώ ως Έλληνας οτι μένω έκπληκτος ! Ωστόσο ακόμη και τα "νέα Ελληνικά " έχουν σχέση με την αρχαία Ελληνική γλώσσα , και αν είναι αλήθεια αυτά που λένε οι Αμερικανοί επιστήμονες είναι κέρδος για κάποιον να μιλάει αρχαία Ελληνικά .