As I have said many times before, I am very impressed with your knowledge and honesty and I wish your shop was closer to where I live. In the past I did all my own work but today's cars are much more complicated and many require special tools that I can't justify purchasing and now I am 73 years old I would rather spend my time driving instead of working on cars. Best to you and Mrs. Wizard always. And thank you for sharing your experiences with us as I thoroughly enjoy it
What I've always suggested to people wanting to learn about a car, is to see if there is an online forum dedicated to that car. You can learn some very specific things from those forums.
Timing belt on my old 2001 Audi TT was always on my mind... Needed to be replaced EVERY 60K miles, however, the water pump failed so often that I NEVER had to replace the belt on its own. It was just replaced each time the water pump left me stranded... I still loved that car despite its issues.
I beg to differ with you on the issue of proper maintenance ie: oil changes and the like. You do get a very tangible benefit out of them. You get peace of mind, confidence that your not likely to be stranded on the side of the road. Confidence that your vehicle will start, run and perform as designed. So in my book routine maintenance is cheap insurance indeed.
Had a timing belt replaced on my daughter's 2004 2.0L VW Beetle while she was away at school. Car had about 80K miles so it was time. The hack shop did not adjiust the tensioner properly and the timing chain slipped 10K miles later. Since it's an interference engine design, the damage was catasrtophic. Several valves crashed into the top of the pistons so I had to replace the cylinder head. Fortunately the pstons had no signficant damage. During the repair I found the hack shops tensioner adjustment tool laying down near the bottom of the timing cover. Apparently the mechanic dropped the tool during the repair and couldn't find it so he never finished adjusting the tensioner.
@Scooter You DID get your money back from the defective workmanship didn't you? You should have gone to small claims court ! Only about $65 bucks to file a claim for damages against that incompetent shop.
@Scooter *and your experience is why many people don't want to get their cars serviced, this kind of terrible incompetence is the NORM in the business. The competent and honest shop is the EXCEPTION to the rule*
It's always best to go to an 'indy' (independent) marque specialist. Plenty of VW specialists out there. They usually don't rip you off like dealers do. Otherwise they can't stay in business for 20+ years as many have or else bad word-of-mouth would make their business dry up.
My 2006 4.0 Tacoma always rattled like a paint can full of marbles. I learned that it was due to the VVT. Ever since I switched to Mobil1 the rattle is 1/4 of what it used to be. I am not suggesting that Mobil1 is the best oil to use, but I can attest that using a higher quality oil, no matter who makes it, can improve valve train issues.
I really envy you and respect you cause you're a very competent and honest mechanic (which as you know is rare),but I am glad that I don't have to deal with your headaches. I don't blame you for not working on old vehicles anymore
This timing chain problem also occurs in motorcycles, the Kawasaki 650 dirtbike has a tensioner, which usually breaks around 5000 miles, but can be replaced by a metal aftermarket tensioner that never wears out, it’s referred to as the Doohickey.
The timing chain stretch issue in modern Direct Injected engines is due to the micro soot that is generated at low speed high load. That soot doesn’t cause any issues in most components even though it’s too small to be caught by the filter but it will cause accelerated wear in the tiny pins in the chains. The newer API GF-6A oil specs addressed this specifically with a new formulation that helps prevent this soot by both stopping low speed pre ignition and suspending this soot to keep that wear from happening. Not all oils are created equal, be sure your car is getting the specific API rated oil and it will last much much longer. Keep in mind that this standard wasn’t established until 2020 when the root issues had been studied and addressed.
I always believed that it's also due to the additional components loading down the chains (VVT, oil pumps, water pumps in some, etc) and the extended length of them in OHC engines. If you lose x amount of material in the pins of a 100 link chain you might see a small amount of "stretch", but in a 400 link chain you're going to see 4x that stretch since the pins all wear equally in most cases. Your explanation goes even deeper and makes sense. Another factor is that engines used to be thought to be worn out by 100K miles so the chains never failed. A lot of engines are seeing double that nowadays so it would make sense that chain wear is a bigger factor.
Indeed. Jason on Engineering Explained did a video on that very topic. The longer the chain the more potential for wear & therefore stretch. Even if it's only a few thousandths on each pin it will add up to inches in no time.
So safe to say, timing chains should have a scheduled replacement time. Just like timing belts, different factors contribute to the life span of chains.
The issue here specifically though is that tensioner. That is not the revised tensioner. VW tensioners would become loose and allow the stretch. They fixed the issue in the Gen 3 engines (2015+ in the US) and released a new tensioner for Gen 2 engines.
Thanks for checking on the chain. It was giving me a mechanics painc attack not checking the chain. At the shop I use to work for we routinely had smashed valves come in with those vw/audi motors. We were not a cheap shop either at 185 USD a hour and the only people who will bother to work on modern euro in a 300 miles radius. I wish people looked at their car as more than a appliance when it comes their cars. That's why people moan over service imo.
That's true. But alot of people just don't care either, I used to own a 2006 Bmw 1 series and everytime I'd fix something it would just break again so decided to leave German behind. Now have a fiesta 1.6 metal edition that I can fully service and take care of myself as it's simple to work on and don't need a degree or £10,000 in labour lol 😐
I just went through all of this on my Audi A3, and don't forget to change out the intake manifold and water pump that have been recalled. Also while you're there do a carbon cleaning because I'm sure it needs it... while you're in there.
I remember Pontiac and some Ford engines used plastic tipped timing gears that would strip off causing problems. The plastic pieces would sometimes plug up the oil pumps.
Most all of GM engines used plastic tooth timing gears in 60's -80's. Only heavier duty trucks and some high performance had double roller timing chains.
@@hotpuppy1 On GM small blocks in the 80s the camshaft would normally get wiped out before that plastic dipped timing gear showed any wear. I did an absolute boat load of small block cams. We always upgraded the chain and sprockets while we were in there.
Yup!! Have found the little bits of plastic in my Ford Mustang oil pan. The plastic coated gears were failing and pulled the engine for a complete repair.
Mr Wizard, this video is so true and important,iam sharing this video with all my friends and family, finally someone with a honest and good reputation has made a video about timing chains and belts that anyone can understand,a timing belt cost a person i know an entire engine in his Toyota Truck,he first said,hey, Toyotas run forever, and wasn't worried about the high mileage, and he wouldn't take advice,by golly he's listening now, after a $10,000 learning experience, Thanks Mr & Mrs Wizard for a great educational video.
My first thought was,Real VW"s are air cooled.I had many bugs in the 1970"s & 80"s.They were great cars that could take a real beating.Swap the engine in 4 hours,4 bolts & 7 wires,floor jack required.Engines were easy to find & cheap.Usually rusted out cars that still ran good.What"s easy to forget is how often you had to work on the old cars,with points & plugs,it was constantly.These are the things from the "good old day"s",that are easy to forget.Bugs were cool tho.
One of the design features I really love about the Duramax 6.6 liter Diesel engine on my GMC 2500 truck is it uses gears instead of a chain. A gear on the crankshaft meshes with a gear on the camshaft. After 355k miles, zero issues with valve timing. What a brilliant design. I wish my gas engines had the same set up. My 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the in-line 6, 4.0 liter did break the timing chain, and the pistons did contact the valves, basically trashing the engine. This happened at 221k miles. I put in another 4.0 from a 2000 Jeep with 210k, and I am more diligent about these chains now. Before I put in the engine, I put In new timing gears and chain, and a new oil pump. The inline 6 is normally a 300 k engine, but sometimes it just isn’t.
Great video. If you ever want to show the difference between an old and new chain, turn it 90* in your hand and hold them out like a sword. A worn chain will sag due to wear in the pins and plates and the new one will have minimum sag. I've seen heavily worn chains that would sag a full 90* when held out! This is an old motorcyclist trick to see if your drive chain is shot, especially on older non-Oring chains.
Every 5000 miles my car gets oil change, tire rotation, all three wipers, cabin filter and check and assess transmission and brake and anti freeze. Timing belts used to be around 50k years ago. Thank You 🙏 Great Videos
@@laurat1129 Hi 50,000 miles years ago. Like the Ford Escort or else when they went the valves bent and all hell was done. It was back in the early 80’s when I was turning wrenches for a living.
@@rudolphna54 yeah... I do my cabin filters yearly. fresh wipers are always nice, although on my Hondas I have left the factory wipers and get new "inserts" from the dealer. they stay in perfect shape for at least a year. my current set is 2 years old and I'm about to replace them. I wish my f150 had wiper inserts... I have to get the aftermarket wipers and I'm never happy with them, although my current set is 1.5 years old and starting to show age.
Emissions is also a driving factor. Lighter engine internals means less mass and/or friction giving slightly less consumption and voila a green(er?) engine that fails prematurely. But manufacturing costs are the biggest driver for sure.
Wizard, as someone who was in the business, those who owned those engines with timing belts, and interference valve trains, often were shocked when that rubber band busted , and the engine was shot. I have seen those small block Chevy engines break a timing chain once in awhile, but that was after they had many miles on them. The fix was to put the heavier double by circle type Chan and gears, to resolve the problem. They are making them cheaper, to help the service department, and the sales departments in the dealerships just like you said
Love your channel Car Wizard. I do want to mention however that many V8 and some 6 cylinder engines from the 1950s-90s from most if not all American manufacturers had nylon-coated cam gears that can fail. The nylon wears off or gets brittle (sometimes just from age) and breaks off ending up in the oil pan. Eventually the engine jumps time. In my family back in the 70s and 80s we had four fail: '67 Pontiac 326, '68 Chevy 327, '72 Chevy 400 and a '73 Chevy 350. The 326 and 327 happened on the highway and the valves hit the pistons - game over. On the 400 and 350, it failed during startup and did not bend the valves. All had made it to over 100K miles, but it is still something to look for today because old, brittle nylon gears can fail even with low mileage.
Thanks for another great video, Wizard. I have had plenty of timing belt and now timing chain experience. My 88 Honda Prelude Si' timing belt broke. Fortunately, that repair was covered under warranty. We did do the timing belt service wife's previous VW Passat GLS 1.8T - for that car, the whole front of the car has to come off. Good old VW/Audi Service Position. My current BMW 328i has the N20 Turbo 4 that was the subject of a class action lawsuit against BMW. I am not having any timing chain issues with it. From my BMW whisperer and FCP Euro, I have been changing my oil every 5K miles with LiquiMoly synthetic oil. 10K miles is way too long for oil changes.
15:22 that 1 guy left really needs to make a UA-cam video showing how to rebuild that part and the parts he used to rebuild it to pass on the knowledge to future generation mechanics so the information on how to rebuild them doesn't die with him and get lost forever!!
Wizard, there is a fifth way albeit I think only used in the 1920's and very early thirties by Bentley on their six cylinder engines. They used a triple throw eccentric drive a bit like a steam engine. This was very quiet but in order to allow for thermal expansion of the cylinder block, the camshaft had to be hydraulically suspended on a series of dished washers inside tubes, pressurised by the oil system. The very long camshaft also had to have a torsional damper.
I wrenched in my father's shop from the mid 60s to the mid 70s. All the GM V-8s in that era had plastic teeth on the cam gear. It was done for noise abatement, the replacements however were all metal. The plastic cam gears didn't make 100k miles, but typically the failure resulted in either very poor running or no running at all, I think the motor died before the any valve to piston interferance occurred. The American Motors are interferance engines and timing chain failures do occur. I specifically remember a neighbor's Wagoneer engine we replaced after the timing chain broke on the highway, there were holes in several pistons.
Wizard, the early 70's Toyotas with the 8RC and 18RC engines had dual timing chains that would grenade if not changed on a regular basis. Mine 71 Corona chain got so stretched that it flopped around enough to break the upper chain guide. The piece that broke, fell down and jammed between the lower chain and the crank gear. That caused the auxiliary shhaft to break and the shaft broke the timing chain cover! What a mess. Great videos! keep them up!
I had one break on a 1999 ford ranger with the 2.5LT engine. Luckily it was a non interference engine. The worse part was being stuck along a roadway with not a lot of room to get off the road. It was fairly easy to replace.
I have a 2006 Chrysler 300, that was a garage queen for the first 13 years, I picked it up from the original owner's son 3 years ago with 35,000 miles, It currently has 43,000 on it. I bit the bullet and had the timing belt service done recently as it has the 3.5 V6 which is an interference engine, not because of any problems or symptoms but because of age, I plan to keep this car for many more years as it still is garage kept and looks almost showroom new.
That engine in the '09 Tiguan alone pretty much carried our parts dept. And if people ignored the symptoms we sold more than a few engines. It's a solid engine once you get the early teething issues out of the way but the early ones kept us busy with warranty work!
My brother was driving a 1971 Ford Ranch Wagon with a 351 Windsor under the hood and 40k miles on the odometer. Being a punk kid, he was doing a brake stand and grenaded the engine. We found nylon teeth from the timing gears in the oil sump when we took the engine out of the car to replace it. I'm pretty sure that steel gears would not have failed like that.
I had to replace several timing chains and gears on 70s model cars. They had plastic teeth on the upper gear and they would wear and finally jump time. The replacement gears were all metal.
Thanks so much. I took a picture in the portal when I got a new timing chain done. I brought up the picture while you were showing the stretching, I now know what to look for when I need it done again.
I quit flat bedding in 08 and went to containers. Prior to that I hauled coils not strictly but many. I specifically remember these single 44,000 lb belly load coils they were very very specific in preparation to leave their shop. One main place I delivered & there was a secondary one occasionally. You would uncover the coil they had a little supercomputer which he explained to me in the layman terms. The metal had to be very very stringent tolerance to specs. Or it would be rejected and you'd have to take it back. These coils were specifically for making timing chains and go to gear assemblies. That morning noise is a sure indicator. My parents tried to push that one. Interference heads. Do not want to skip service dates
Always amazed me how German manufacturers always have these timing chain issues. I always thought…look at what Toyota did and copy that and never worry about it again.
The Swedish manufacturers (Volvo and Saab) had some issues, too. Not because of poor timing chains (which were duplex, so certainly strong enough), but because Volvo used a fibre chain drive gear - presumably to make it quieter - and Saab used a weak tensioner, which could wear and even break. Surprising in view of the fact that both companies made solidly built cars. I had several Saab 99s over 20 years . When they went bust, I switched to - you've guessed - Toyota.
I worked at a independent BMW repair shop for 7 years. Some of the engineering crap i saw was mind blowing. And to this day they can t make a engine not leak oil.
@@jonhouck7254 I love mine, too. I was driving home one evening, crawling through rush hour traffic in London. I drive one of the very few Camrys on the road in the UK (they're rare here). An African guy driving a delivery truck in the opposite direction leaned out of the window, smiled, pointed at my car and shouted, "They never die, man" and gave me a thumbs up.
When I started working auto parts in the 80s it was very common to sell timing chain kits. Cripes I can still remember part numbers for Chevy timing kits, lifters, valve cover gaskets and main and rod bearings. We don't even stock engine parts anymore.
I have an old 318 and everybody says that I will hear it when it's time to change a timing chain and they were right. They start hitting the timing cover. Naturally they are way out of spec long before that, but they were right. My noise happened at just over 400,000 miles. Witness marks on the cover, inside.
I looked at a few different largish sedans when I bought my 2014 Lexus ES350 right before the pandemic and price jumps. Circled back around to Toyota/Lexus cause I've always had a good experience with their cars and trucks. The FWD 2GR-FE V6/6 speed auto combo is known to be stupid reliable, no timing chain issues. IMO a huge part of buying a luxury car is the damn thing holding up to the test of time and miles, not leaving you stranded, all the buttons and gee gaw features don't break, the interior doesn't fall apart(cadillac, cough cadillac), when it is time for service/repairs it doesn't eat you out of house and home.
I had a Pilot that I bought new and sold it at almost 340,000 miles. I has the timing belt and water pump as well as every fluid in her 4 times. Plus the regular oil changes. She was a great suv.
It's great how a community like this can help in both directions. Kudos to Dave for listening. So many UA-camrs don't. I just don't know how Urination Bob finds the cars that he finds. Yes, I did that. Bite me.
Great topic Wizard, well because you are the Wizard. Use to hate timing belts, but it seems the belt tensioning is simpler and more reliable than long chains with plastic guides and oil pressure tensioning. It's also about the industry wide design move to overhead cam engines versus rocker arm engines. The worst engine design is a overhead cam engine with timing chain that also drives the water pump; when the pump seal fails, the coolant mixes with the chain lube oil. Some many ICE iterations and they still do the dumbest engineering! Let's remember new camshaft and chain loading caused by new DI high pressure fuel pumps.
Love your show and well you might be to young to know that on the 70 Chevy 307 had part nylon and metal top timing chain gear I'm sure they had it before and after on small block Chevy's ! We always replaced them with solid gears!
I had a '63 Econoline pickup that had a similar heater valve setup which of course was a leaky mess. I ended up buying a more modern heater core that fit the box and used a conventional valve. I know that's not your shop's gig, so I feel your pain.
Replaced the timing chain in my 2013 Ford at 88K miles. Not because it was a problem, but because the engine had to come apart for the water pump and it was an extra $90 to replace the timing chain. Really a beast of a motor. It will outlast the car.
Wizard, your timing (pun intended) was perfect for me regarding an issue I had with possible timing chain. And I want to add my experience here in case someone else has the problem. My 98 Crown Vic P71 started clattering noise only when at higher speed accelerating. Took to mechanic, they had a problem initially getting the noise replicated but finally did and told me to immediately take it took a machine shop for diagnosis. Here's the kicker, a friend of a friend is a mechanic out of his home and told me to bring it by for the hell of it. He took one look under hood and somehow spotted a crack in one of my hoses from the air intake. Damned if not after replacing did that take away the clattering noise which was thought to be a timing chain. Like you, after initially thinking it was timing chain I did some checking online and was pissed to find out Ford used plastic guides etc in that 4.6 engine too. I appreciated you calling this out and of course it all boils down to money, keeping that car note repeating to the banks as well. Thank you!
I had a nice running 2002 Ford Explorer Sport with the 4.0 L V6 OHC engine. It looked nice and rode well. One day, the timing chain started making noise, particularly when it was cold. It was the plastic tensioners that had broken. I decided to pull the oil pan, and I found a lot of the tensioner pieces. These engines had one chain on the back of the engine, and in order to service this chain, the engine had to come out of the vehicle. I know how to do this, but I didn't have the energy for the job. I sold it cheap to someone who is a lot younger than I.
Great Video about the truth. I have my stories on timing chains. I have a 1964 Pontic 389 and those had nylon teeth that failed. Ford had problems in the 70's. My 1971 Triumph TR6 timing was jumping timing all over the place because of chain/gears, I just did a 1978 Chevy 305 timing set and found the H Balancer was about to fall apart. I pulled a chain through a 1971 Mercedes 450SL. I've done more but the point is that you have made a good video that people need to see and just learn to love this part of the deal. Hondas, Toyotas.... man it is just a job that must be done but folks need to know that it can turn out BETTER as you can get so much more life and better running by doing this - and maybe find other problems that may end your motor. That Lincoln heater valve story is a place I've been too... but not again... Just like You I am not going to lay hands on any part of some of these older cars. Great Work!!! Bobby
when i rebuilt the 305 in my 78 malibu classic station wagon it had the nylon gears in it and it was warped so i changed those gears to the cast iron ones
Ha! I just had to change the timing gear on my 1930 Ford. 92-year-old direct- drive resin gear finally gave it up. I replaced it with an aluminum gear.
I drive a 2012 Mazdaspeed 3. The 2.3 DISI in these (as well as the Mazdaspeed 6 and CX-7) are known to have VVT issues. The VVT actuator has the potential to fail, which causes the timing chain to stretch and eventually grenade the engine if not taken care of ASAP. Luckily, Mazda has released a revised set of parts.
Wow my timing chain let go on my 1983 Oldsmobile Toronado 5.0 V8 307 we fixed it and replaced the water pump at the same time but by dad drove the car with no oil for 500 miles and it damaged the roof bearings and main bearing so I bought a new truck. But I miss that car but the parts were very hard to find front wheel drive parts were also hard to find. Great video love your channel
I have seen old chevy's with a slight oil leak up front, check timing cover and the chain was so loose it had worn through the cover but was still running fine ! 206 SEATTLE
Same hear !!! Those old chevys with a 350 you could get gear drive at speed shop . Put in truck NEVER had timing problems. Ford L6 engine you could take the fiber gear out and change it for their HD Truck engine part , metal gear , but makes slight gear wine, still have mine !!!!
I believe the majority of VW diesel engines have the water pump driven by the timing belt. I wonder how many people asking for a timing belt service also have the water pump and thermostat changed when this is being done. Considering the cost it really does make sense to at least replace the water pump at the same time.
The water pump is always replaced when replacing a timing belt on the TDI engines. If the client opted not to get it done….. then just his tough luck huh? The thermostat is separate front the water pump and can be done without removing the timing belt.
This is where old Saabs really shine. The old B202, B204, B234 engines go for 200,000 miles plus without the timing chain being touched. I took one apart last year with 181,000 miles and the sprockets, chain, and tensioner were as new. No visible wear at all. Inside the rocker cover you would have thought it was 1 year old, not 30yrs old.
I had a 1992 Toyota Carina as a beater car. I got it dirt cheap. No point to replace timing belt as it would cost more than the car. Previous owner told me he never replaced either. In total the car had 350k miles on the meter when I was done with it. Gave it away and still running on the same timing belt. But it was only high miles though. Everything last longer on a car in those cases. But 350k miles on the same timing belt is impressive. And I know it is still running too.
Buick 231 V6s. Early odd firing order engines had plastic tipped gears and plastic tensioner. Wore out twice in my 77 Firebird. Don't know about later ones, but I suspect the irregular firing contributed to the premature wear. Good video. Thanks
My mechanic told me about the timing belt and head gasket on my 05 caravan. When I bought it last Dec the timing belt and gasket they got replaced. So I use the trip meter to keep track on the mileage I put on it so I can replace both at the same when the time comes.
Keep in mind back in "the old days" cars didn't last as long. You started thinking about getting rid of a car when it had 75K mi because it would be shot by 100. So "lasting a lifetime" didn't mean today's 200K mi cars.
My dad told me about how when his parents bought a new car in the 50s, an oil filter was an extra-cost option. You could get the base model without a filter and do oil changes at 2000 miles, or spend more to extend the drain interval to 3000 miles by getting the filter. But it was also expected back then that you'd look at replacing a worn out engine around 50K mi.
One reason for a lack of timing chain problems in old American car engines is that they were pushrod engines, and the chain from the crank to the camshaft was far shorter than with overhead cam engines.
I have the same problem with heater valves for my car. They are NLA. I have ebay and other auction sites worldwide set to alert me whenever one comes up for sale. I buy every single one and they are expensive but when you need one, nothing else will work. I wouldn't worry too much, but they are a very common failure on my car so I quite literally buy every single one.
In high school (1980s) we used double roller timing chains, never gave a problem. Recently, I got 197K miles out of the timing BELT in a 2011 Honda Pilot. The thing that let go was the tensioner in the timing belt. Engine just quit when that happened. Thankfully, pulled water pump and front of engine apart, replaced tensioner, belt, water pump, etc., and started right up after.
Hold one end of a chain horizontal and the the droop of the chain at the other end is highly related to the wear of the chain. I thought everyone knew this. Apparently not. Compare a new chain as shown to a used up one and there will be centimeters of difference of droop between the new and used.
Wizard, your videos are amazing. I have a 06 Colorado 2.8 and recently had the timing chains (front and rear) replaced. Unfortunately the tech was not on your level and I've had a P0014 code since the job was done. I know you are busy and cannot reply, but my word to the wise is choose your tech carefully. It runs awful and after spending 2x what the truck is worth, it sits in my driveway.
Am exception Mr W - Citroen SM (Maserati 2.7) Were famous for timing chains breaking. My dad got one and was told there would be plenty of warning noise beforehand but he just heard a slight zip noise and its was a complete rebuild to sort.
as a 70s mechanic I replaced several failed Timing chains on V8s and V6s the larger cam gears had plastic gears -why- an effort to have quieter running engine.
Hello again from Wales Mr. Wizard. My V twin Suzuki motorbike has a quite unusually short timing chain combined with gears for the overhead cams. I wonder if you've come across this arrangement on any cars. My turbo diesel Peugeot hatchback has a belt that needs changing every 32,000 miles, or 5 years, whichever comes first. I was remiss and left it for almost 7 years last time. I'd done under 20,000 miles in that time but will be more vigilant in future, for sure. Time had slipped away without me noticing.
Way back in the late 80s I worked for an Agricultural Engineers. All the techs across several depots had Peugeot 309 diesel vans. One timing belt failed, so they checked the rest. They found multiple teeth missing from most of the belts in the other vehicles
Also a flat tappet engine needs zinc oils to keep them alive .all new oils don't have high zinc anymore cause it damages cat converters.so you have to run a muscle car or racing oils .
Timing chains in 60's -70's cars last 'the lifetime of the car' because the car rarely lasted past 100,000 miles. I had a 307 out of a 73 Chevy that had so much chain slap that it wore a hole in the front cover! Half of the plastic teeth were off. I also had a 68 Olds 400 that ALL of the plastic teeth were in the oil pan. It was running off of what was left of the cam sprocket!.
I saw that too in the 70's. A car came in for an oil change and there was a mess coming from the front pulley. On closer inspection you could see the long "crack" where the chain wore thru.
they kept the timing chain into the 80's & 90s. Good design, it stretches, then jumps a tooth or two & shut down. Usually 120-140k miles. Had a taxi mechanic get mad at me because a caprice went dead, loose chain. I said, ' you watch, the whole fleet will be going down, & I'll hear it happen via the radio dispatcher'. Sure enough, that's what happens, with V-8s going 200-500miles a shift, 2 12 hour shifts a day. Lol. He didn't like that. hehee. Physics. Chains stretch.
speaking of timing chains i have to do a timing chain job. I did the cam shafts a while back because one of them decided to grenade, and it decide to take the oil pump out on the way out, the good part is that all the debris is out and the oil pump only has a crack in it but the psi at idle is lower than it should be.
also this is on a 2.5l yoda can say the timing chain and its componets are not plastic but the hard rubber leads to wear away after 200k miles and u will get some rattling after so and so amount of time with new gears and tensioners.
'06 Jeep Wrangler with the 4.0L in-line 6 cylinder. It has 250K miles and just had the timing chain changed. it had a total of 0.250 inch of stretch. My mechanic asked if I really wanted to change it. I said yes, because it would go another 250K miles.
Sitting in my couch, watching the video with my 03 Camry 2.4 L engine apart. Doing a timing chain on it. It's been sitting like that for a week now. I told my wife, that must be a sign to get this job done. 😂.
My experience with 60's -80's 350 G.M. engine timing chains is once the plastic coated gear breaks time for a chain and you need to replace it again every 65,000 or so miles as the new replacement chains stretch .
It's not just cheapness of the parts but that modern valve trains require a lot more torque to turn and have much longer chains due to being OHV so they have much more stretch as they wear. The reasons it takes more torque is engines now have usually 4 valves per cylinder and go to a much higher RPM. Higher RPM means you need stronger valve springs to prevent valve float that would happen at lower RPMs. Stronger valve springs means more powered needed to turn the cam.
I own a VW product, 110k miles with original timing belt. Think I'll wait another year or two before replacing it. VW recommend changing it every 130k miles. Quite happy its a belt and not a chain, much much easier and cheaper to replace.
Now you got me thinking about my 2014 Nissan altima. I have 180,000 miles on it. Runs like a top, I take good care of it. You got me thinking about ' 1st start up '. I thought I I've been hearing a little bit of rattle on 1st start up. For like 1 sec. I guess o need to call my local Nissan dealership and ask when I need to change mine. Could be time. No issues tho. No engine lights anything other than that 1sec of I'm thinking I'm hearing is a slite rattle at 1st start up
my 66 ford fairlane 302 sheared its nylon drive gear on a cold winter day startup.As their was no damage to engine it would turn over but not start due to timing way out .Took days to trouble shoot outside at -25 degrees
I seen that many times but the funniest one was when my mothers old Dodge Aries broke it belt on a 2.2 liter engine. Guess what non interference engine. I go down one afternoon to her home and my brother in law has a new carb for the car saying the old one is flooding. I go out to the car and want to see what it is doing out of curiosity. I crank it over and knew instantly it needed a timing belt. I open the the front cover and remove the broken belt. then put everything to top dead center. Hop over to the parts store get a water pump a belt and new tensioner and put it all back together without ever touching the carb. I have teased my master mechanic brother in law for years over that bad carb.
The issue was the Timing Chain Tensioners on the 2.0tsi engines early on. There was a class action recall on them in the USA. Unfortunately in the UK we didn't have that come back on the engines. Also if you want to talk about stupid designs and cheapness causing issues, look up Ford/PSA vehicles and their Wet Belts in Europe.
On my 2014 Kia Soul 2L, I also had a noise on the timing chain, and finally they changed the entire engine block under warranty. The car had only 84000km.
Only once replaced a timing chain. My 67 oldsmobile 330 at 70k. Just cause I wanted to, along with lifters. Necessary no. Learned alot how things fit & worked together.
I worked testing engines and ancillaries for ford transit in uk in 2007. The 2.4 puma engine had a chain, we had to do oil sampling for carbon build up as it wears chains out. Ford started at the cheapest chain, then, worked up to better quality to get the engine over the milage/ warranty line. Just on the chain testing and trials it was over $2million and years of testing. Every oil sample cost $50, we did hundreds, engine oil carbon build up wore chains out. Different fuel chemistry and internal engine breathing and blow-by affects this. Ford especially penny pinch. Its as cheap as they can "reliably" make it. After a year on the dynos, and 1000s of hours ford were putting in high-quality chains with high chrome content. It was noticable the hardness of the chain when you handled it.
It is really up to each decision in car manufacturing process which influence the end product. Design, management decisions, supply chain management. Many times these issues were simply solved by choosing different manufacturer for OEM part. There is also big pressure to save CO2 emissions, so lighter chains and components will safe gram or 2 which counts. Specially in Europe. But there are plenty of modern engines today with timing chain which lasts 200k+ miles, so it can be done right.
I have a Seat Leon fr cupra with a 2.0 vw tsi engine producing over 300bhp and it is bullet proof reliable and wickedly fast... Its basically the same engine that's in the Beatle but mapped at the factory to produce more power... And in mine I have the manual gearbox with auto clutch (DSG) and paired with the 2.0 tsi it is amazing and it changes gear much quicker than any manual gearbox can. 👍🙂👍🇺🇲🇬🇧🇺🇲🇬🇧
Cheap chains is certainly a problem. My son's car with the 2L ecotec, the chain looks like it's off a bicycle. We did the replacement in the garage, pretty simple and runs great
Those early TSI motors had problems with oil pressure on startup. It takes some time for them to tension the chain properly. If You let the engine idle for 30 seconds after start up it will tension the chain properly and make it last a lot longer :) Still - poor design from VW.
The number one reason for the low oil pressure at start up on those early TSI engines were due to using low quality oil filters. Every single vehicle that came into our dealership with chain issues had an after market oil filter. The bypass valves on those aftermarket filters are just garbage. (If it’s lucky to have one that is).
I've always heard that if your engine is rattling and misfiring at idle but it all goes away when you get up to speed that it's the timing chain that's starting to give up the ghost on you. Commercial diesels and locomotives use gears but it can be kind of loud and a lot of people just don't like that.
As I have said many times before, I am very impressed with your knowledge and honesty and I wish your shop was closer to where I live. In the past I did all my own work but today's cars are much more complicated and many require special tools that I can't justify purchasing and now I am 73 years old I would rather spend my time driving instead of working on cars. Best to you and Mrs. Wizard always. And thank you for sharing your experiences with us as I thoroughly enjoy it
What State are you in, Bill? Take a mini-Vacay, and look-around his area, while your car's getting fixed, Right!
Repeat after me: "I shall change my engine oil often and not follow the manufacturers dumb extended oil change intervals."
You might save your engine.
True. They just do this to appease the environmentalists. Results in less oil changes.
What I've always suggested to people wanting to learn about a car, is to see if there is an online forum dedicated to that car. You can learn some very specific things from those forums.
Timing belt on my old 2001 Audi TT was always on my mind... Needed to be replaced EVERY 60K miles, however, the water pump failed so often that I NEVER had to replace the belt on its own. It was just replaced each time the water pump left me stranded... I still loved that car despite its issues.
I beg to differ with you on the issue of proper maintenance ie: oil changes and the like. You do get a very tangible benefit out of them.
You get peace of mind, confidence that your not likely to be stranded on the side of the road. Confidence that your vehicle will start, run and perform as designed. So in my book routine maintenance is cheap insurance indeed.
I would add to your statement: the proper oil and OEM filters should always be used.
@@volpswagen_marco I agree 👍
Legend has it: The Car Wizard once picked oranges from an apple tree and made the best lemonade for Hoovie he had ever tasted.
Legend has it the wizard once turned one wrench and fixed three cars!
In the middle of the winter too!
Yaaaaaa, that wasn't lemonade..... looked like lemonade but...😂
😁😄😁
For 200 an hour he better be good
Had a timing belt replaced on my daughter's 2004 2.0L VW Beetle while she was away at school. Car had about 80K miles so it was time. The hack shop did not adjiust the tensioner properly and the timing chain slipped 10K miles later. Since it's an interference engine design, the damage was catasrtophic. Several valves crashed into the top of the pistons so I had to replace the cylinder head. Fortunately the pstons had no signficant damage. During the repair I found the hack shops tensioner adjustment tool laying down near the bottom of the timing cover. Apparently the mechanic dropped the tool during the repair and couldn't find it so he never finished adjusting the tensioner.
Nice! 😞
@Scooter
You DID get your money back from the defective workmanship didn't you?
You should have gone to small claims court ! Only about $65 bucks to file a claim for damages against that incompetent shop.
@Scooter
*and your experience is why many people don't want to get their cars serviced, this kind of terrible incompetence is the NORM in the business. The competent and honest shop is the EXCEPTION to the rule*
Sad...older Rabbits had rubber belt non interference motors.
Sorry to hear that..
Mechanic had "cellphone interruptus syndrome" forgot e dropped tool.
It's always best to go to an 'indy' (independent) marque specialist. Plenty of VW specialists out there. They usually don't rip you off like dealers do. Otherwise they can't stay in business for 20+ years as many have or else bad word-of-mouth would make their business dry up.
My 2006 4.0 Tacoma always rattled like a paint can full of marbles. I learned that it was due to the VVT. Ever since I switched to Mobil1 the rattle is 1/4 of what it used to be. I am not suggesting that Mobil1 is the best oil to use, but I can attest that using a higher quality oil, no matter who makes it, can improve valve train issues.
I really envy you and respect you cause you're a very competent and honest mechanic (which as you know is rare),but I am glad that I don't have to deal with your headaches. I don't blame you for not working on old vehicles anymore
My 85 Plymouth Reliant had the mitsubishi 2.6 and it was done in by the timing chain guides wearing out. It was 18 years old by then so I junked it.
This timing chain problem also occurs in motorcycles, the Kawasaki 650 dirtbike has a tensioner, which usually breaks around 5000 miles, but can be replaced by a metal aftermarket tensioner that never wears out, it’s referred to as the Doohickey.
The timing chain stretch issue in modern Direct Injected engines is due to the micro soot that is generated at low speed high load. That soot doesn’t cause any issues in most components even though it’s too small to be caught by the filter but it will cause accelerated wear in the tiny pins in the chains. The newer API GF-6A oil specs addressed this specifically with a new formulation that helps prevent this soot by both stopping low speed pre ignition and suspending this soot to keep that wear from happening. Not all oils are created equal, be sure your car is getting the specific API rated oil and it will last much much longer. Keep in mind that this standard wasn’t established until 2020 when the root issues had been studied and addressed.
I always believed that it's also due to the additional components loading down the chains (VVT, oil pumps, water pumps in some, etc) and the extended length of them in OHC engines. If you lose x amount of material in the pins of a 100 link chain you might see a small amount of "stretch", but in a 400 link chain you're going to see 4x that stretch since the pins all wear equally in most cases.
Your explanation goes even deeper and makes sense. Another factor is that engines used to be thought to be worn out by 100K miles so the chains never failed. A lot of engines are seeing double that nowadays so it would make sense that chain wear is a bigger factor.
Correct. I worked testing timing chains of ford engines. The soot, is carbon, and it wears out the chains.
Indeed. Jason on Engineering Explained did a video on that very topic. The longer the chain the more potential for wear & therefore stretch. Even if it's only a few thousandths on each pin it will add up to inches in no time.
So safe to say, timing chains should have a scheduled replacement time. Just like timing belts, different factors contribute to the life span of chains.
The issue here specifically though is that tensioner. That is not the revised tensioner. VW tensioners would become loose and allow the stretch. They fixed the issue in the Gen 3 engines (2015+ in the US) and released a new tensioner for Gen 2 engines.
Thanks for checking on the chain. It was giving me a mechanics painc attack not checking the chain. At the shop I use to work for we routinely had smashed valves come in with those vw/audi motors. We were not a cheap shop either at 185 USD a hour and the only people who will bother to work on modern euro in a 300 miles radius. I wish people looked at their car as more than a appliance when it comes their cars. That's why people moan over service imo.
Wow, and I thought Porsche here in Italy are expensive, at their 90€ (=90$) at hours! That's insane!
That's true. But alot of people just don't care either, I used to own a 2006 Bmw 1 series and everytime I'd fix something it would just break again so decided to leave German behind. Now have a fiesta 1.6 metal edition that I can fully service and take care of myself as it's simple to work on and don't need a degree or £10,000 in labour lol 😐
I just went through all of this on my Audi A3, and don't forget to change out the intake manifold and water pump that have been recalled. Also while you're there do a carbon cleaning because I'm sure it needs it... while you're in there.
I remember Pontiac and some Ford engines used plastic tipped timing gears that would strip off causing problems. The plastic pieces would sometimes plug up the oil pumps.
Pontiac timing chains, I probably did 5 of those for every 1 of all the other makes.
Most all of GM engines used plastic tooth timing gears in 60's -80's. Only heavier duty trucks and some high performance had double roller timing chains.
@@hotpuppy1 On GM small blocks in the 80s the camshaft would normally get wiped out before that plastic dipped timing gear showed any wear. I did an absolute boat load of small block cams. We always upgraded the chain and sprockets while we were in there.
@@michaelmathews295
The 301 was the worst.
Yup!! Have found the little bits of plastic in my Ford Mustang oil pan. The plastic coated gears were failing and pulled the engine for a complete repair.
Mr Wizard, this video is so true and important,iam sharing this video with all my friends and family, finally someone with a honest and good reputation has made a video about timing chains and belts that anyone can understand,a timing belt cost a person i know an entire engine in his Toyota Truck,he first said,hey, Toyotas run forever, and wasn't worried about the high mileage, and he wouldn't take advice,by golly he's listening now, after a $10,000 learning experience, Thanks Mr & Mrs Wizard for a great educational video.
My first thought was,Real VW"s are air cooled.I had many bugs in the 1970"s & 80"s.They were great cars that could take a real beating.Swap the engine in 4 hours,4 bolts & 7 wires,floor jack required.Engines were easy to find & cheap.Usually rusted out cars that still ran good.What"s easy to forget is how often you had to work on the old cars,with points & plugs,it was constantly.These are the things from the "good old day"s",that are easy to forget.Bugs were cool tho.
One of the design features I really love about the Duramax 6.6 liter Diesel engine on my GMC 2500 truck is it uses gears instead of a chain. A gear on the crankshaft meshes with a gear on the camshaft. After 355k miles, zero issues with valve timing. What a brilliant design. I wish my gas engines had the same set up. My 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee with the in-line 6, 4.0 liter did break the timing chain, and the pistons did contact the valves, basically trashing the engine. This happened at 221k miles. I put in another 4.0 from a 2000 Jeep with 210k, and I am more diligent about these chains now. Before I put in the engine, I put In new timing gears and chain, and a new oil pump. The inline 6 is normally a 300 k engine, but sometimes it just isn’t.
Great video. If you ever want to show the difference between an old and new chain, turn it 90* in your hand and hold them out like a sword.
A worn chain will sag due to wear in the pins and plates and the new one will have minimum sag. I've seen heavily worn chains that would sag a full 90* when held out! This is an old motorcyclist trick to see if your drive chain is shot, especially on older non-Oring chains.
Every 5000 miles my car gets oil change, tire rotation, all three wipers, cabin filter and check and assess transmission and brake and anti freeze. Timing belts used to be around 50k years ago. Thank You 🙏 Great Videos
replacing all wipers and cabin air filter every 5000 seems incredibly excessive unless it takes you actual years to drive 5k.
Wait... cars weren't even around 50k years ago.😉
@@laurat1129 Hi 50,000 miles years ago. Like the Ford Escort or else when they went the valves bent and all hell was done. It was back in the early 80’s when I was turning wrenches for a living.
@@rudolphna54 I don’t care about that when I get rid of them I always get top dollar.
@@rudolphna54 yeah... I do my cabin filters yearly. fresh wipers are always nice, although on my Hondas I have left the factory wipers and get new "inserts" from the dealer. they stay in perfect shape for at least a year. my current set is 2 years old and I'm about to replace them.
I wish my f150 had wiper inserts... I have to get the aftermarket wipers and I'm never happy with them, although my current set is 1.5 years old and starting to show age.
Thanks, Wizard and Mrs. Kudos to useful viewers. Good heads up with timing chains, they don't last forever.
Emissions is also a driving factor. Lighter engine internals means less mass and/or friction giving slightly less consumption and voila a green(er?) engine that fails prematurely. But manufacturing costs are the biggest driver for sure.
Wizard, as someone who was in the business, those who owned those engines with timing belts, and interference valve trains, often were shocked when that rubber band busted , and the engine was shot. I have seen those small block Chevy engines break a timing chain once in awhile, but that was after they had many miles on them. The fix was to put the heavier double by circle type Chan and gears, to resolve the problem. They are making them cheaper, to help the service department, and the sales departments in the dealerships just like you said
Love your channel Car Wizard. I do want to mention however that many V8 and some 6 cylinder engines from the 1950s-90s from most if not all American manufacturers had nylon-coated cam gears that can fail. The nylon wears off or gets brittle (sometimes just from age) and breaks off ending up in the oil pan. Eventually the engine jumps time. In my family back in the 70s and 80s we had four fail: '67 Pontiac 326, '68 Chevy 327, '72 Chevy 400 and a '73 Chevy 350. The 326 and 327 happened on the highway and the valves hit the pistons - game over. On the 400 and 350, it failed during startup and did not bend the valves. All had made it to over 100K miles, but it is still something to look for today because old, brittle nylon gears can fail even with low mileage.
Thanks for another great video, Wizard. I have had plenty of timing belt and now timing chain experience. My 88 Honda Prelude Si' timing belt broke. Fortunately, that repair was covered under warranty. We did do the timing belt service wife's previous VW Passat GLS 1.8T - for that car, the whole front of the car has to come off. Good old VW/Audi Service Position. My current BMW 328i has the N20 Turbo 4 that was the subject of a class action lawsuit against BMW. I am not having any timing chain issues with it. From my BMW whisperer and FCP Euro, I have been changing my oil every 5K miles with LiquiMoly synthetic oil. 10K miles is way too long for oil changes.
15:22 that 1 guy left really needs to make a UA-cam video showing how to rebuild that part and the parts he used to rebuild it to pass on the knowledge to future generation mechanics so the information on how to rebuild them doesn't die with him and get lost forever!!
Wizard, there is a fifth way albeit I think only used in the 1920's and very early thirties by Bentley on their six cylinder engines. They used a triple throw eccentric drive a bit like a steam engine. This was very quiet but in order to allow for thermal expansion of the cylinder block, the camshaft had to be hydraulically suspended on a series of dished washers inside tubes, pressurised by the oil system. The very long camshaft also had to have a torsional damper.
I wrenched in my father's shop from the mid 60s to the mid 70s. All the GM V-8s in that era had plastic teeth on the cam gear. It was done for noise abatement, the replacements however were all metal. The plastic cam gears didn't make 100k miles, but typically the failure resulted in either very poor running or no running at all, I think the motor died before the any valve to piston interferance occurred. The American Motors are interferance engines and timing chain failures do occur. I specifically remember a neighbor's Wagoneer engine we replaced after the timing chain broke on the highway, there were holes in several pistons.
Most replayed always the Beetles. Lovely cars that everyone loves even if you don't want to admit it.
Wizard, the early 70's Toyotas with the 8RC and 18RC engines had dual timing chains that would grenade if not changed on a regular basis. Mine 71 Corona chain got so stretched that it flopped around enough to break the upper chain guide. The piece that broke, fell down and jammed between the lower chain and the crank gear. That caused the auxiliary shhaft to break and the shaft broke the timing chain cover! What a mess. Great videos! keep them up!
Man...I totally remember those having timing chain issues BITD!! Poor design lol
I had one break on a 1999 ford ranger with the 2.5LT engine. Luckily it was a non interference engine. The worse part was being stuck along a roadway with not a lot of room to get off the road. It was fairly easy to replace.
I have a 2006 Chrysler 300, that was a garage queen for the first 13 years, I picked it up from the original owner's son 3 years ago with 35,000 miles, It currently has 43,000 on it. I bit the bullet and had the timing belt service done recently as it has the 3.5 V6 which is an interference engine, not because of any problems or symptoms but because of age, I plan to keep this car for many more years as it still is garage kept and looks almost showroom new.
That engine in the '09 Tiguan alone pretty much carried our parts dept. And if people ignored the symptoms we sold more than a few engines. It's a solid engine once you get the early teething issues out of the way but the early ones kept us busy with warranty work!
My brother was driving a 1971 Ford Ranch Wagon with a 351 Windsor under the hood and 40k miles on the odometer. Being a punk kid, he was doing a brake stand and grenaded the engine. We found nylon teeth from the timing gears in the oil sump when we took the engine out of the car to replace it. I'm pretty sure that steel gears would not have failed like that.
I had to replace several timing chains and gears on 70s model cars. They had plastic teeth on the upper gear and they would wear and finally jump time. The replacement gears were all metal.
I got a pre-video ad for Cartier... they must have my browsing history confused with the Car Wizard's.
I recall seeing Ford cutaway engines at the Autoshow and saw all those plastic guides, just couldn’t believe it!
Thanks so much. I took a picture in the portal when I got a new timing chain done. I brought up the picture while you were showing the stretching, I now know what to look for when I need it done again.
I quit flat bedding in 08 and went to containers. Prior to that I hauled coils not strictly but many. I specifically remember these single 44,000 lb belly load coils they were very very specific in preparation to leave their shop. One main place I delivered & there was a secondary one occasionally. You would uncover the coil they had a little supercomputer which he explained to me in the layman terms. The metal had to be very very stringent tolerance to specs. Or it would be rejected and you'd have to take it back. These coils were specifically for making timing chains and go to gear assemblies. That morning noise is a sure indicator. My parents tried to push that one. Interference heads. Do not want to skip service dates
One of the scariest things to haul on a truck!
Always amazed me how German manufacturers always have these timing chain issues. I always thought…look at what Toyota did and copy that and never worry about it again.
What do you expect from a nation who tried to eradicate a group of people from the earth while keeping detailed records of their crimes?
The Swedish manufacturers (Volvo and Saab) had some issues, too. Not because of poor timing chains (which were duplex, so certainly strong enough), but because Volvo used a fibre chain drive gear - presumably to make it quieter - and Saab used a weak tensioner, which could wear and even break. Surprising in view of the fact that both companies made solidly built cars. I had several Saab 99s over 20 years . When they went bust, I switched to - you've guessed - Toyota.
I love Toyota they are like cockroaches they never die
I worked at a independent BMW repair shop for 7 years. Some of the engineering crap i saw was mind blowing. And to this day they can t make a engine not leak oil.
@@jonhouck7254 I love mine, too. I was driving home one evening, crawling through rush hour traffic in London. I drive one of the very few Camrys on the road in the UK (they're rare here). An African guy driving a delivery truck in the opposite direction leaned out of the window, smiled, pointed at my car and shouted, "They never die, man" and gave me a thumbs up.
When I started working auto parts in the 80s it was very common to sell timing chain kits. Cripes I can still remember part numbers for Chevy timing kits, lifters, valve cover gaskets and main and rod bearings. We don't even stock engine parts anymore.
I have an old 318 and everybody says that I will hear it when it's time to change a timing chain and they were right. They start hitting the timing cover. Naturally they are way out of spec long before that, but they were right. My noise happened at just over 400,000 miles. Witness marks on the cover, inside.
I looked at a few different largish sedans when I bought my 2014 Lexus ES350 right before the pandemic and price jumps. Circled back around to Toyota/Lexus cause I've always had a good experience with their cars and trucks. The FWD 2GR-FE V6/6 speed auto combo is known to be stupid reliable, no timing chain issues. IMO a huge part of buying a luxury car is the damn thing holding up to the test of time and miles, not leaving you stranded, all the buttons and gee gaw features don't break, the interior doesn't fall apart(cadillac, cough cadillac), when it is time for service/repairs it doesn't eat you out of house and home.
I had a Pilot that I bought new and sold it at almost 340,000 miles. I has the timing belt and water pump as well as every fluid in her 4 times. Plus the regular oil changes. She was a great suv.
It's great how a community like this can help in both directions. Kudos to Dave for listening. So many UA-camrs don't.
I just don't know how Urination Bob finds the cars that he finds.
Yes, I did that. Bite me.
lol
Great topic Wizard, well because you are the Wizard. Use to hate timing belts, but it seems the belt tensioning is simpler and more reliable than long chains with plastic guides and oil pressure tensioning. It's also about the industry wide design move to overhead cam engines versus rocker arm engines. The worst engine design is a overhead cam engine with timing chain that also drives the water pump; when the pump seal fails, the coolant mixes with the chain lube oil. Some many ICE iterations and they still do the dumbest engineering! Let's remember new camshaft and chain loading caused by new DI high pressure fuel pumps.
Great tutorial ! Our 2012 VW Passat 2.0 Tsi Timing Chain did have the plastic guide break at 5 years old in 2017 .
Love your show and well you might be to young to know that on the 70 Chevy 307 had part nylon and metal top timing chain gear I'm sure they had it before and after on small block Chevy's ! We always replaced them with solid gears!
I had a '63 Econoline pickup that had a similar heater valve setup which of course was a leaky mess. I ended up buying a more modern heater core that fit the box and used a conventional valve. I know that's not your shop's gig, so I feel your pain.
Replaced the timing chain in my 2013 Ford at 88K miles. Not because it was a problem, but because the engine had to come apart for the water pump and it was an extra $90 to replace the timing chain. Really a beast of a motor. It will outlast the car.
Wizard, your timing (pun intended) was perfect for me regarding an issue I had with possible timing chain. And I want to add my experience here in case someone else has the problem. My 98 Crown Vic P71 started clattering noise only when at higher speed accelerating. Took to mechanic, they had a problem initially getting the noise replicated but finally did and told me to immediately take it took a machine shop for diagnosis. Here's the kicker, a friend of a friend is a mechanic out of his home and told me to bring it by for the hell of it. He took one look under hood and somehow spotted a crack in one of my hoses from the air intake. Damned if not after replacing did that take away the clattering noise which was thought to be a timing chain. Like you, after initially thinking it was timing chain I did some checking online and was pissed to find out Ford used plastic guides etc in that 4.6 engine too. I appreciated you calling this out and of course it all boils down to money, keeping that car note repeating to the banks as well. Thank you!
look up the 4.0l SOHC timing chain replacement. i own a ranger that needs it fun.
It is a shame that car manufacturers do not build a car to last no longer than what they do with these cheap parts thank you for your video love it
I had a nice running 2002 Ford Explorer Sport with the 4.0 L V6 OHC engine. It looked nice and rode well. One day, the timing chain started making noise, particularly when it was cold. It was the plastic tensioners that had broken. I decided to pull the oil pan, and I found a lot of the tensioner pieces. These engines had one chain on the back of the engine, and in order to service this chain, the engine had to come out of the vehicle. I know how to do this, but I didn't have the energy for the job. I sold it cheap to someone who is a lot younger than I.
Happens all the time on the SOHC 4 liters - you were really unlucky as the OHV usually doesn't have that problem!
@@dennyj8650 It was the SOHC engine. The S went missing.
Great Video about the truth. I have my stories on timing chains. I have a 1964 Pontic 389 and those had nylon teeth that failed. Ford had problems in the 70's. My 1971 Triumph TR6 timing was jumping timing all over the place because of chain/gears, I just did a 1978 Chevy 305 timing set and found the H Balancer was about to fall apart. I pulled a chain through a 1971 Mercedes 450SL. I've done more but the point is that you have made a good video that people need to see and just learn to love this part of the deal. Hondas, Toyotas.... man it is just a job that must be done but folks need to know that it can turn out BETTER as you can get so much more life and better running by doing this - and maybe find other problems that may end your motor. That Lincoln heater valve story is a place I've been too... but not again... Just like You I am not going to lay hands on any part of some of these older cars. Great Work!!! Bobby
when i rebuilt the 305 in my 78 malibu classic station wagon it had the nylon gears in it and it was warped so i changed those gears to the cast iron ones
Ha! I just had to change the timing gear on my 1930 Ford. 92-year-old direct- drive resin gear finally gave it up. I replaced it with an aluminum gear.
I drive a 2012 Mazdaspeed 3. The 2.3 DISI in these (as well as the Mazdaspeed 6 and CX-7) are known to have VVT issues. The VVT actuator has the potential to fail, which causes the timing chain to stretch and eventually grenade the engine if not taken care of ASAP. Luckily, Mazda has released a revised set of parts.
Wow my timing chain let go on my 1983 Oldsmobile Toronado 5.0 V8 307 we fixed it and replaced the water pump at the same time but by dad drove the car with no oil for 500 miles and it damaged the roof bearings and main bearing so I bought a new truck. But I miss that car but the parts were very hard to find front wheel drive parts were also hard to find. Great video love your channel
I have seen old chevy's with a slight oil leak up front, check timing cover and the chain was so loose it had worn through the cover but was still running fine ! 206 SEATTLE
Same hear !!! Those old chevys with a 350 you could get gear drive at speed shop . Put in truck NEVER had timing problems. Ford L6 engine you could take the fiber gear out and change it for their HD Truck engine part , metal gear , but makes slight gear wine, still have mine !!!!
@@catman5546 International 304 and 345 v8 all gear timing set too.
take care..
I believe the majority of VW diesel engines have the water pump driven by the timing belt. I wonder how many people asking for a timing belt service also have the water pump and thermostat changed when this is being done. Considering the cost it really does make sense to at least replace the water pump at the same time.
The water pump is always replaced when replacing a timing belt on the TDI engines. If the client opted not to get it done….. then just his tough luck huh? The thermostat is separate front the water pump and can be done without removing the timing belt.
This is where old Saabs really shine. The old B202, B204, B234 engines go for 200,000 miles plus without the timing chain being touched. I took one apart last year with 181,000 miles and the sprockets, chain, and tensioner were as new. No visible wear at all. Inside the rocker cover you would have thought it was 1 year old, not 30yrs old.
I had a 1992 Toyota Carina as a beater car.
I got it dirt cheap. No point to replace
timing belt as it would cost more than the car.
Previous owner told me he never replaced either. In total the car had 350k miles on the meter when I was done with it.
Gave it away and still running on the same timing belt.
But it was only high miles though. Everything last longer on a car in those cases.
But 350k miles on the same timing belt is impressive.
And I know it is still running too.
Buick 231 V6s. Early odd firing order engines had plastic tipped gears and plastic tensioner. Wore out twice in my 77 Firebird. Don't know about later ones, but I suspect the irregular firing contributed to the premature wear. Good video. Thanks
My mechanic told me about the timing belt and head gasket on my 05 caravan. When I bought it last Dec the timing belt and gasket they got replaced. So I use the trip meter to keep track on the mileage I put on it so I can replace both at the same when the time comes.
Keep in mind back in "the old days" cars didn't last as long. You started thinking about getting rid of a car when it had 75K mi because it would be shot by 100. So "lasting a lifetime" didn't mean today's 200K mi cars.
My dad told me about how when his parents bought a new car in the 50s, an oil filter was an extra-cost option. You could get the base model without a filter and do oil changes at 2000 miles, or spend more to extend the drain interval to 3000 miles by getting the filter. But it was also expected back then that you'd look at replacing a worn out engine around 50K mi.
One reason for a lack of timing chain problems in old American car engines is that they were pushrod engines, and the chain from the crank to the camshaft was far shorter than with overhead cam engines.
I have the same problem with heater valves for my car. They are NLA. I have ebay and other auction sites worldwide set to alert me whenever one comes up for sale. I buy every single one and they are expensive but when you need one, nothing else will work. I wouldn't worry too much, but they are a very common failure on my car so I quite literally buy every single one.
My 2013 Beetle TDI has a timing belt. I just had it, and the water pump, replaced. It wasn't cheap, but I plan on keeping my car for many more years.
In high school (1980s) we used double roller timing chains, never gave a problem. Recently, I got 197K miles out of the timing BELT in a 2011 Honda Pilot. The thing that let go was the tensioner in the timing belt. Engine just quit when that happened. Thankfully, pulled water pump and front of engine apart, replaced tensioner, belt, water pump, etc., and started right up after.
Hold one end of a chain horizontal and the the droop of the chain at the other end is highly related to the wear of the chain. I thought everyone knew this. Apparently not. Compare a new chain as shown to a used up one and there will be centimeters of difference of droop between the new and used.
Wizard, your videos are amazing. I have a 06 Colorado 2.8 and recently had the timing chains (front and rear) replaced. Unfortunately the tech was not on your level and I've had a P0014 code since the job was done. I know you are busy and cannot reply, but my word to the wise is choose your tech carefully. It runs awful and after spending 2x what the truck is worth, it sits in my driveway.
Am exception Mr W - Citroen SM (Maserati 2.7) Were famous for timing chains breaking. My dad got one and was told there would be plenty of warning noise beforehand but he just heard a slight zip noise and its was a complete rebuild to sort.
as a 70s mechanic I replaced several failed Timing chains on V8s and V6s the larger cam gears had plastic gears -why- an effort to have quieter running engine.
Hello again from Wales Mr. Wizard. My V twin Suzuki motorbike has a quite unusually short timing chain combined with gears for the overhead cams. I wonder if you've come across this arrangement on any cars. My turbo diesel Peugeot hatchback has a belt that needs changing every 32,000 miles, or 5 years, whichever comes first. I was remiss and left it for almost 7 years last time. I'd done under 20,000 miles in that time but will be more vigilant in future, for sure. Time had slipped away without me noticing.
Way back in the late 80s I worked for an Agricultural Engineers. All the techs across several depots had Peugeot 309 diesel vans. One timing belt failed, so they checked the rest. They found multiple teeth missing from most of the belts in the other vehicles
Michael Archangel Good thing there are very few Peugeots in N America.
How about camshafts? Are there still soft camshaft issues like Adam of Rare Classic Cars had on his gm classics from the 60s/70s?
Yes henry major cam and lifters problems from cheap Chinese steel also bad quality control issues
Also a flat tappet engine needs zinc oils to keep them alive .all new oils don't have high zinc anymore cause it damages cat converters.so you have to run a muscle car or racing oils
.
Most all new flat tappet cams and lifters these days are junk.
Timing chains in 60's -70's cars last 'the lifetime of the car' because the car rarely lasted past 100,000 miles. I had a 307 out of a 73 Chevy that had so much chain slap that it wore a hole in the front cover! Half of the plastic teeth were off. I also had a 68 Olds 400 that ALL of the plastic teeth were in the oil pan. It was running off of what was left of the cam sprocket!.
I saw that too in the 70's. A car came in for an oil change and there was a mess coming from the front pulley. On closer inspection you could see the long "crack" where the chain wore thru.
they kept the timing chain into the 80's & 90s. Good design, it stretches, then jumps a tooth or two & shut down. Usually 120-140k miles. Had a taxi mechanic get mad at me because a caprice went dead, loose chain. I said, ' you watch, the whole fleet will be going down, & I'll hear it happen via the radio dispatcher'. Sure enough, that's what happens, with V-8s going 200-500miles a shift, 2 12 hour shifts a day. Lol. He didn't like that. hehee. Physics.
Chains stretch.
speaking of timing chains i have to do a timing chain job. I did the cam shafts a while back because one of them decided to grenade, and it decide to take the oil pump out on the way out, the good part is that all the debris is out and the oil pump only has a crack in it but the psi at idle is lower than it should be.
also this is on a 2.5l yoda can say the timing chain and its componets are not plastic but the hard rubber leads to wear away after 200k miles and u will get some rattling after so and so amount of time with new gears and tensioners.
'06 Jeep Wrangler with the 4.0L in-line 6 cylinder. It has 250K miles and just had the timing chain changed. it had a total of 0.250 inch of stretch. My mechanic asked if I really wanted to change it. I said yes, because it would go another 250K miles.
Sitting in my couch, watching the video with my 03 Camry 2.4 L engine apart. Doing a timing chain on it. It's been sitting like that for a week now. I told my wife, that must be a sign to get this job done. 😂.
My experience with 60's -80's 350 G.M. engine timing chains is once the plastic coated gear breaks time for a chain and you need to replace it again every 65,000 or so miles as the new replacement chains stretch .
It's not just cheapness of the parts but that modern valve trains require a lot more torque to turn and have much longer chains due to being OHV so they have much more stretch as they wear.
The reasons it takes more torque is engines now have usually 4 valves per cylinder and go to a much higher RPM. Higher RPM means you need stronger valve springs to prevent valve float that would happen at lower RPMs. Stronger valve springs means more powered needed to turn the cam.
I own a VW product, 110k miles with original timing belt. Think I'll wait another year or two before replacing it. VW recommend changing it every 130k miles. Quite happy its a belt and not a chain, much much easier and cheaper to replace.
I remember my 1970 Rover 2000TC (P6) bought 1980 with only 50,000 miles, had a DUPLEX timing chain ! They built engines to last in those days.
Now you got me thinking about my 2014 Nissan altima. I have 180,000 miles on it. Runs like a top, I take good care of it. You got me thinking about ' 1st start up '. I thought I I've been hearing a little bit of rattle on 1st start up. For like 1 sec. I guess o need to call my local Nissan dealership and ask when I need to change mine. Could be time. No issues tho. No engine lights anything other than that 1sec of I'm thinking I'm hearing is a slite rattle at 1st start up
my 66 ford fairlane 302 sheared its nylon drive gear on a cold winter day startup.As their was no damage to engine it would turn over but not start due to timing way out .Took days to trouble shoot outside at -25 degrees
I seen that many times but the funniest one was when my mothers old Dodge Aries broke it belt on a 2.2 liter engine. Guess what non interference engine. I go down one afternoon to her home and my brother in law has a new carb for the car saying the old one is flooding. I go out to the car and want to see what it is doing out of curiosity. I crank it over and knew instantly it needed a timing belt. I open the the front cover and remove the broken belt. then put everything to top dead center. Hop over to the parts store get a water pump a belt and new tensioner and put it all back together without ever touching the carb. I have teased my master mechanic brother in law for years over that bad carb.
Love that chebby pickup best vehicle ive seen in your shop yet
The issue was the Timing Chain Tensioners on the 2.0tsi engines early on. There was a class action recall on them in the USA. Unfortunately in the UK we didn't have that come back on the engines.
Also if you want to talk about stupid designs and cheapness causing issues, look up Ford/PSA vehicles and their Wet Belts in Europe.
My Toyota van let you know when it needs changed it clicks for a second in the morning when u frist start it but I think it just a 3.0 v6 thing
Ford beefed up the timing chain. Went with a double row chain on the 3.5 Twin Turbo gen II.
On my 2014 Kia Soul 2L, I also had a noise on the timing chain, and finally they changed the entire engine block under warranty. The car had only 84000km.
Only once replaced a timing chain. My 67 oldsmobile 330 at 70k. Just cause I wanted to, along with lifters. Necessary no. Learned alot how things fit & worked together.
I worked testing engines and ancillaries for ford transit in uk in 2007.
The 2.4 puma engine had a chain, we had to do oil sampling for carbon build up as it wears chains out.
Ford started at the cheapest chain, then, worked up to better quality to get the engine over the milage/ warranty line.
Just on the chain testing and trials it was over $2million and years of testing. Every oil sample cost $50, we did hundreds, engine oil carbon build up wore chains out. Different fuel chemistry and internal engine breathing and blow-by affects this.
Ford especially penny pinch. Its as cheap as they can "reliably" make it.
After a year on the dynos, and 1000s of hours ford were putting in high-quality chains with high chrome content. It was noticable the hardness of the chain when you handled it.
It is really up to each decision in car manufacturing process which influence the end product. Design, management decisions, supply chain management. Many times these issues were simply solved by choosing different manufacturer for OEM part.
There is also big pressure to save CO2 emissions, so lighter chains and components will safe gram or 2 which counts. Specially in Europe. But there are plenty of modern engines today with timing chain which lasts 200k+ miles, so it can be done right.
Thanks Wizard for this important information! Love your videos.
I have a Seat Leon fr cupra with a 2.0 vw tsi engine producing over 300bhp and it is bullet proof reliable and wickedly fast... Its basically the same engine that's in the Beatle but mapped at the factory to produce more power... And in mine I have the manual gearbox with auto clutch (DSG) and paired with the 2.0 tsi it is amazing and it changes gear much quicker than any manual gearbox can. 👍🙂👍🇺🇲🇬🇧🇺🇲🇬🇧
Cheap chains is certainly a problem. My son's car with the 2L ecotec, the chain looks like it's off a bicycle. We did the replacement in the garage, pretty simple and runs great
Those early TSI motors had problems with oil pressure on startup. It takes some time for them to tension the chain properly. If You let the engine idle for 30 seconds after start up it will tension the chain properly and make it last a lot longer :) Still - poor design from VW.
The number one reason for the low oil pressure at start up on those early TSI engines were due to using low quality oil filters. Every single vehicle that came into our dealership with chain issues had an after market oil filter. The bypass valves on those aftermarket filters are just garbage. (If it’s lucky to have one that is).
It'd be great if someone designed metal guides as a replacement for those crappy plastic ones
I've always heard that if your engine is rattling and misfiring at idle but it all goes away when you get up to speed that it's the timing chain that's starting to give up the ghost on you. Commercial diesels and locomotives use gears but it can be kind of loud and a lot of people just don't like that.