I hate to be THAT GUY, but the nevigators do not "fold space", the "Holtzman engines" do that, the navigator is there for his prescience, he is there to foresee any danger in the "folded route", so that the ship ("Heighliner") wouldn't pass through a planet or a sun that could exist in between the two points of fold.
@@timbosplice8437 Nevertheless, in the Butlerian jihad series, before having navigators and while computers that helped plan safe path were banned, the human fleet would lose 10% of thier ships every time they used the Holtzman engines...
The 1984 version's navigator entrance scene is absoulutely outstanding for it's conception and effect to me. Whoever designed the navigator interpretation did a fantastic job and created a mass of mutation and atmosphere that I feel has never been bettered in sci-fi cinema. I also seem to be one of the few who prefer the protective fighting shield interpretation in the training scene in this movie as it fits in perfectly with the whole steampunky/victorian look of the film. Great presentation and info thanks.
A friend gave me the Dune Trilogy .. I read the first few pages of the first book, put the book down and didn't read further. This same friend took me to see the movie in 1984 .. it was so strange, I recall wondering why it wouldn't end and wishing it would. Then 10 years later, one night late, I caught the 1984 version on some cable channel .. at the point when Paul and Jessica were escaping. Either because I was older then or I cared to pay more attention, something clicked. Since then, I don't know how many times I've seen the various versions of the 1984 film nor how many times I've ready the books but Dune is my most favorite sci-fi. The depth is amazing. So many details. Denis' version is just eye candy with great writing, that while he skips some portions that provide that depth I love, he remains faithful to the idea that is Dune.
I really hoped there would be a deeper explanation of the spider in the sequel, whether it was delving a bit more into the Harkonnen's constant experimentation of life forms or the rumor that it was Dr. Yueh's kidnapped wife (although when he was sent to "join" her I imagine that should have dispelled that belief).
I hope it will look somewhat like the 1984 grotesque version. It looks physically very impractical and it's huge head hints at it's extraordinary mental capabilities I like the idea that being a navigator is a complete physical curse and prison counterbalanced by it's mental blessings.
Thanks for your video.i like the navigators from all filmed versions but you are right that in the new films they are missing.greetings from Vienna/Austria from me jürgen vicepresident of Vulkan Spirit
As much as I love the DV movies, I think he shrouded the guild in too much mystery to the point that they are practically non existent. A few more scenes with the representatives in the background to remind us that they exist would have fixed this. Fingers crossed for Dune Prophecy
The robed figures with massive headgear in Part One (the anoinment ceremony on Caladan) may be a small glimpse on these guys. I am sad that's gonna take at least three more years for Messiah, if not more.
@@EdWiley671Thufir says "three guild navigators" but the guy in orange headgear are five. Maybe there's a discrepancy or two of these aren't full fledged navigators.
I think itll be hard to top the david lynch guild navigator, but i would love to see what villeneuve does. Hes already shown fantastic stylization with his rendition of giedi prime and the harkonnens, so im excited.
My first exposure to Dune 1984 was around 1986. I was 6 years old. My Mom was taping it for my adult sister from HBO. We came home from somewhere and turned on the tv just in time to catch the Baron pull the heart plug on someone and blood splatter everywhere. My Mom turned it off, but not before I got an eyeful. Same sister later got mad at me for writing sci-fi and horror short stories when I was a teenager. I really hope the guild navigators appear in Dune 3. But I will love it either way, I am sure.
@ROVA00 Yep. HBO and ON TV. HBO (Home Box Office) first became available on November 8, 1972, launching as a subscription television service in the United States. It was initially available to subscribers in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, marking the start of its operation as a pay television service offering uncut and commercial-free movies and special events.
One thing is for sure.. The guild navigators at the end of book 1 are part of the reason why pauls threat works and the emperor has to abide. Maybe that's why the fremen immediately had to jump in ships to fight the houses at the end of the 2nd movie. It was kinda weird seeing them immediately jump on the warships. They knew how to fly them? The atreides army was destroyed and they seemed to make no prisoners of the harkonnens and saurdakars. I can't remember the fighting starting right away in the books. I gotta go back and check it.
Denis said he did Arrival and Blade runner in preparation for dune. We'll, I can elements of blade runner in Dune. However, I can also see elements of the Guild navigators in Arrival: big aliens in a tank of gas within a brutalist looking spaceship??? We already know how Denis will execute the cinematography from this. He's definitely going to rehash what he learnt in Arrival.
why does everyone keep saying that the navigators use the spice to fold space? the Holtzman engines do the folding, the navigators just chart the course by looking through time to make sure the path the take wont land them in a star or next to a black hole. They're like mentats but with prescience, doing heavy calculations while taking in the trajectory and chaos of space to make sure the heighliner makes it to the other side
Well… As someone who read the books more then once … I agree … A lot is never mentioned in the film adaption, especially in the latest form from director D. Villeneuve . Whilst visually stunning the whole concept of the relationship between the guild and the rest of the empire is totally missing. Maybe the NEXT installment will change that … we’ll see 👍
thanks for covering this. I am disappointed in the absence of the Guild Navigators. And their relationship with the Bene Gesserit. Especially given the state of CGI and conceptual development. I wonder if Denis quietly tasked development and didn't see anything that rocked him.
I'm hopeful that the 3rd installment will include the navigators. They were one of the best parts of the 1984 version. They filled my thoughts with wonder and mystery as a child. While I am impressed by the advanced special effects in the new films, I think the design of worms in the '84 version made more evolutionary sense, and are better executed. Perhaps one of those times where models are better than CGI.
I feel the same way. I know that part of the directors strategy is to leave us to speculate about the technology and keep us in the dark. It helps to build the intrigue and mystery. But, I want to see a navigator! I also really wanted to see some close ups of the highliner too! Folding the space inside of the highliner is a brilliant concept but I wish we could have seen a little more of the intricacies of how it worked. I know… mystery.
This is why I love the different Dune adaptations you can watch because each tells the story from another angle. Hopefully, Villeneuve will show the Navigators in Dune Messiah, as they play a major role in the coming story.
Edric is one of the main characters, he better show him and not give him the Thufir Hawat treatment lol. If anything, they should give Edric the same narrative weight and impact as the Baron.
One thing I did appreciate about the scene in 84 between the navigator and emporer, is how the navigator was able to see the ultimate plan the emporer was cooking up. Although it was heavy on exposition and explained everything too much, I appreciated how it provided a little context more and explained why Paul was a threat.
I would suggest the exclusion of Paul's sister Alia Atirdes and her poisoning of the Baron was the worst exclusion from the original source material. That along with the dropping of the death of Paul & Chani's son Leto really takes away from Paul's story development. The films are awesome but should be enjoyed as an interpretation of a literary masterpiece
A lot of people are upset about Denis V. excluding Guild Navs and “folding space” in what is essentially the first part of his take on Dune (the first 2 films). First, there’s much more to come in these new adaptations. Second, it’s obviously not in any way critical to either of the films. Weirdo Guild navigators tripping on heavy spice gas while tweaking Holtzman Engines is nifty and all, but who cares in light of what’s happening in the characters and politics of the story? It amounts to nerding out for nerds’ sake. It’s like if you’re watching a heist movie about some dudes gathering to go over the big plan and then the director really wants to show the taxi driver’s experience and how internal combustion engines fire on cylinders! Who cares? It’s a pointless distraction from the emotional story AND the timeline of the story’s events. I know some will say, “But, but, but Herbert WROTE about the Guild and the engines! It MUST be important!” Sure, it’s important to the medium of books that can be much longer and in depth and detailed. Of course, the Guild has a greater role in the universe of the books. Yet, movie adaptations have to streamline and cutting sci-fi space ship and travel mechanics seems a perfectly good detail to cut or at least highly limit.
The Guild Navigator scene is the best part of the 1984 movie, it's weird and alien-like, it really makes you feel it's a real alternate reality where all this is really happening. I wish more directors were brave enough to show this kind of stuff, everything is bland these days in order to supposedly appeal to a wider audience.
It has popularized the David Lynch version. As so many now draw upon HIS visuals to discuss the navigators. So I believe it has the effect of honoring some of Lynch's work. It's Denis's way of saying, "Let's not touch or try to supersede this which David did so well".
I didn't expect a full on scene, but I would have loved to have seen a cameo to just show how travel works as part of the world building. That is something that I will never get to see from DV.
They should make an appearance in the next movie if it stays close to the book, "Dune Messiah". There are some foreshadowing from a couple of characters that will set the stage for Dune, Part 3 (Dune Messiah) which concerns a conspiracy. You can read the book to find out. Part 2 does a good job of leaving open ends for the next movie.
My dad LOVED Frank Herbert's Dune. So when the 1984 version came on one day, he was like "omg you're watching". Some of the key characters from the movies and the books that I thought were interesting (besides Sting being Feyd-Rautha that was badass) were the Spacing Guild, ESPECIALLY when I saw that the navigator's were large misshapen worms with tiny fins. I looked later at what Frank Herbert imagined the Navigators to look like and that's when I saw the humanoid fish looking navigator with long arms and legs, webbed feet and hands, and webbed ears. I TOTALLY thought Denis was going to have them in the movie. Even though they might not have held any significance for the characters in the story. THE FANS WERE DYING TO SEE ONE. YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE DUNE WITHOUT NAVIGATORS? that is a let down. Also real quick why are the harkonnen's all bald they have reddish hair or blonde???? They had hair if not, Lady J would be bald.... AND WHERE IS THE COUNT FENRING! THAT DUDE WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE DUNE CHARACTERS, just because he was a deadly fighter that did not look like a deadly fighter and he was smart
Have you read Dune? The Navigators are mentioned but they aren't characters in the book, so omitting them was perfectly fine - there was already a effing ton of lore to put in the movie. Edric shows up in Messiah, so we'll see them then. Count Fenring was an interesting character but not at all pertinent enough for the story Villeneuve was telling. And the Harkonnen being bald is an artistic choice and it easily can be reasoned that it's due to Geidi Prime's environment (like their black sun) and all the chemicals they pump in their bodies. Jessica never lived on that planet so grew up looking normal. They were redheads only in the Lynch adapation. Feyd in the book is described as having black hair.
I remember first watching the 1984 movie and thinking wow, the story tells itself. It looked forward and backward at the same time. The technology wasn't the centerpiece of the movie the people were. This was the thinking man's Star Wars.
I hope they make the navigators into god like entities , fish like in a giant Aquarium of spice melange just chillin seeing everything and everyone at all times .
In the 1984 version the guild navigators help set the plot in motion by being prescient in seeing that Paul is a serious potential problem. The Bene Gesserit are trying in part to keep Paul safe in hope of controlling him, so at odds with the Navigators. Current Dune and the Bene Gesserit are the ones running everything from the shadows. I think it loses some power going from "the spice must flow" to "the Emperor just decides to end House Atreides from jealousy.
I also loved Villeneuve's two Dune movies and I think that if these strange characters appear in the third part, it would be something like a juicy, dripping dessert.
I would like to see an adaptation of the origin of the Navigators. How Norma Cenva became the first Navigator, and what she went through to figure out how to navigate through vast light years of space.
@@JirocTheFilmmaker agreed but if Messiah ever gets made. You know Denis will have something special for us. The holy war and navigators will be in it.
I found his adaptation of the squid aliens in Arrival allready amazing. You can see similarities in style of space crafts between that movie and Dune in my opinion. I wouldn’t be surpried to see similarities between the navigators and the squids, allthough not them being squids, but more the setting.
There is a good point about not needing to worry about hitting anything. However, it's a matter of scale. We're not talking about crossing a solar system or moving through an asteroid belt. They were crossing the galaxy. A lot Higher more potential to run into something. And if not Zero it's too high a risk as they learned after the destruction of all thinking machines.
David Lynch's 3rd stage Guild Navigator was the best vision of Herbert's idea. Hope Villeneuve goes in that direction (channel some of the striking weirdness of 1984 Dune).
I just discovered dune a few years back. Im no expert. But i too would like to see the navigators. I find them really fascinating. Even a fully seperate work apart from the films or existing texts.
Although looking like a giant ballsac capable of folding space from X I really like the adaptation of the navigator in the 1984 movie. I was 9 years old when I saw it for the first time. Made a huge impression.
I think we’re going to,see them in 3. They are key to the final decision of the houses and the culture to accept that Paul might use the atomic. Think we’re going to see more of Margot and count fenring, and a quick resolution of the split with chani. This may hope more than rational but they were all key to my love of the books 50 years ago.
I enjoyed both of the Sci-Fi Channel’s miniseries as well as the new movies, but each feels like only part of the whole story to me. The miniseries showed the mutual benefit between Paul and the Fremen with them teaching him the ways of the desert while he taught them the Bene Gesserit’s “weirding ways of battle,” while the movies neglected that combat altogether depicting Paul and Jessica just exploiting the Fremen. The movies showed the depths of the Bene Gesserits’ centuries-long manipulations of various planets’ cultures and governments while the miniseries just dabbled with that. The miniseries showed how much humanity’s economy and travel depended not just on the spice itself but also the Spacing Guild’s dominant control over its use while the movie just focused on showing it as a valuable psychoactive drug. The movies showed how common personal shield generators were used on and off the battlefield by upper class citizens and their armies while the miniseries briefly touched on them in a few scenes.
I have to admit I was taken aback by the title of your video since I’ve read the books. 😉 However, I have an iron-clad rule to never comment on UA-cam until I’ve watched the video. Now that I’ve watched it I can say I was pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed it. You explained right away that the Guild Navigators don’t appear until Dune Messiah and you’re expressing your own thoughts. Well done. 👍 I also wanted to add as someone who is older than dirt and who has been a science fiction and fantasy fan for decades I agree 100% that Dune Part 1 and Part 2 are among the best science fiction movies ever made. In fact, I consider them to be the best adaptations of a science fiction or fantasy novel ever. And now my thoughts on the previous versions. I saw the ‘84 version when it was first released and absolutely hated it although it has bits that I liked. However, I don’t blame the wonderful David Lynch since it’s well-known that he lost control over the film. In fact, he has been very public about distancing himself from the finished film. As to the Sci Fi Channel version, I enjoyed it through Paul and Lady Jessica’s escape but then got bored with it and lost interest. So, I can’t really review it. One of these days I’ll watch the whole thing.
I watched the 1984 film in the theater. I was already a huge Dune fan. I liked the film but was disappointed by the weirding module (sonic weapon) and the rain at the end. Without those two ridiculous additions I'd have been happier with it. I have since learned that Lynch disavowed it and there was massive studio interference. Looking back some of the acting hasn't stood the test of time.
Maybe he just didn’t want the movies to have a goofy element to it or venture too close to starwars, but focus more on the human struggles and stories.
I really like the 1984 movie due to its adaptation and inclusion of the schemes of corrino and the spacing guild from the get go Its a shame feyd and corrino weren't as present (although I understand why )
Astounding that remakes have hardly ever be better than the originals, considering they have great source material to work from. The thing that the recent remake of Dune misses is that there was actual dialogue in the fist Dune movie.
The Navigators will feature in Villeneuve's take on Dune Messiah - he was wise to hold them back in the first two movies because I believe they will be one of the highlights of Messiah.
I think in 1984 version of Dune; the Guild Navigators were presented for Shock value only. We already know, if you read Herbert's novels, that Spacing Guild is vital to Space travel. Hell, the timeline itself divided between BG and AG, Before Guild and After Guild, so you realize their importance to Galaxtic history.
I think anything so creature like is not keeping with the director's vision. The worms were something that couldn't be avoided and even then he was very careful about how and when to show them. The navigator runs the risk of looking like a pulp magazine monster,no mater how well it is designed.
I am hopeful of extended editions once part 3 is finished. Hopefully since imax filming was used will get full 16 9 ratio with much less black bars as well as imax is taller. Might take a decade.
The most fantastic thing about Frank Herbert's Dune series, that we don't encounter true Aliens from another Galaxy. Everyone is a version of human evolution twisted by use of Space Melange. And point fail highlight, Once you take Spice your hooked for Life. Therefore only powerful and rich can afford maintain the habit. When you stop taking Spice, it's agonizing death.
In 2001: A Space Odyssey it was decided not to reveal the aliens' appearance that abducted Dave Bowman. Kubrick and perhaps Clarke decided any form offered would cheapen the movie. Perhaps it was the same here and Villeneuve knew of this example however, his alien creatures in Arrival was fine.
They haven't been seen by anyone in the book at that point. It is even pointed out that nobody knows how they look like, if they are still humans. Them being featured in the other adaptations is the abberation.
With Paul being a POV character, it makes sense that we don't get face time with a navigator. Oracles can't see each other. Feels like a creative choice, to exaggerate that to the point where the audience also doesn't see what Guild navigators are up to yet.
I've been a big fan of Lynch's films ever since I went to see it at the cinema as a child accompanied by my mother. I don't like Villeneuve's new version because it doesn't have that atmosphere, the Prophecy, the Messiah and his visions. I conclude that I have read all the books and I am a big fan of Herbert's Dune.
Edric is there from the beginning of Messiah to mask the plot from Pauls prescience but Denis diminished the Spacing Guild's political role in Dune so who knows. I hope he's there as it's an important part of the lore.
I kept thinking i must have just missed the scene and i try to remember during my next rewatch. But i always chuck a handful of edibles down my throat before watching so i never remember to keep an eye out.
Only in the Lynch version.... The Guild is very powerful but only one of the centres of power, the emperor, the landsraad, CHOAM, the BG are all powerful also
There is still a chance to see one. Since now both parts have been big hits, we can safely assume the next part will be coming. Will it be the last part? Only time will tell.
What I miss from that version? I do miss the "Spacing Guild" and the especially the "Guild Navigators". I am really a bit confused why he didn't show one of them, even more when you think about the fact that he showed us octopus-like creatures in a kind of gas tank in "Arrival"!? 🤔 Also I don't like the depiction of "Chani". These movies, especially the second one were a cool kind of "event" in the cinema. And I do like some movies from the director, especially "Blade Runner 2049". But I was a little bit disappointed with "Dune Part 2". Many will call me crazy but with all his flaws I still like David Lynch's version a little bit more. 😕
After watching the new Dune 2 (about 10 times now) the lack of even hint of the guild navigators and their aids make the new movies feel fundamentally unfinished. I also find Chani's character illogical in the new movies, she is the lover and closest confidant but she's portrayed as the enemy within and the ultimate disbeliever in Paul. I think the 1984 pronunciations of the names have a better dramatic punch specifically Leto and Harkonen.
In the David Lynch movie right from the bringing they give us the gorgeous Virginia Madsen to tell us what the Spice is and WHY it's so important. Just saying. 🙄
The 1984 Dune worked for about the first half, then it felt rushed and very poorly done. That being said, there are pleasures in Lynch's visualization.
They didn't do enough to emphasize the importance of the Spice. Its the only "major" gripe I have about the movie. They technically covered it, but they didn't help you really understand it the way Lynch's Dune did. Otherwise, I thought Part 1 and 2 were a masterpiece (and yes, I recognize other divergences happened that were bigger on the plot, but I was okay with them).
Truth. The Navigators were incredible. Villeneuve has made many omissions and deletions and changes from source material. I give his films a solid B for world building but certain things are rankling. I don't believe Villeneuve truly understands what Herbert was trying to portray.
CHAPTERS
0:00 Frank Herbert's Dune
0:40 Guild Navigators from Novel
2:49 1984 Movie Adaptation
3:32 Mini-Series
4:14 2021 & 2024 Adaptation
5:33 Conclusion
6:02 Closing Thoughts
6:35 Subscribe
I love the Dune 1984, there's so much information packed in the first 10 minutes.
I hate to be THAT GUY, but the nevigators do not "fold space", the "Holtzman engines" do that, the navigator is there for his prescience, he is there to foresee any danger in the "folded route", so that the ship ("Heighliner") wouldn't pass through a planet or a sun that could exist in between the two points of fold.
The chance of anything existing on the path is already almost zero. It’s like a falling satellite being in the path of your flight
@@timbosplice8437 Nevertheless, in the Butlerian jihad series, before having navigators and while computers that helped plan safe path were banned, the human fleet would lose 10% of thier ships every time they used the Holtzman engines...
@@timbosplice8437It’s also to make sure the ship actually ends up at the correct destination and not lost out in deep space somewhere in the universe.
@@timbosplice8437 Foldspace isn't our space, its not empty. Its described as existing between the fabric of spacetime.
That's a universe that badly needs star charts
The 1984 version's navigator entrance scene is absoulutely outstanding for it's conception and effect to me. Whoever designed the navigator interpretation did a fantastic job and created a mass of mutation and atmosphere that I feel has never been bettered in sci-fi cinema. I also seem to be one of the few who prefer the protective fighting shield interpretation in the training scene in this movie as it fits in perfectly with the whole steampunky/victorian look of the film. Great presentation and info thanks.
A friend gave me the Dune Trilogy .. I read the first few pages of the first book, put the book down and didn't read further. This same friend took me to see the movie in 1984 .. it was so strange, I recall wondering why it wouldn't end and wishing it would. Then 10 years later, one night late, I caught the 1984 version on some cable channel .. at the point when Paul and Jessica were escaping. Either because I was older then or I cared to pay more attention, something clicked. Since then, I don't know how many times I've seen the various versions of the 1984 film nor how many times I've ready the books but Dune is my most favorite sci-fi. The depth is amazing. So many details. Denis' version is just eye candy with great writing, that while he skips some portions that provide that depth I love, he remains faithful to the idea that is Dune.
Denis did the right thing holding them back. They’ll be the talk of the third movie, as Feyd has been with the second.
So will the bene tleilax
mentats too@@georgesabitpol
Or maybe skip it again
Why would he skip Edric? The face-dancer must be included as well.
@@Diogolindir I suspect we’ll get both.
1984 version is the one that I remember most.
The better one by far.
I really hope in dune messiah they appear, because in part 1 he showed a human spider, that is way more weird than a navigator
That's right! I forgot about the spider.
Freaky
@@andrewchristie2970 i totally disagree, for me the saga just gets better, my favourite one is the 4th book "god emperor of dune"
@@JirocTheFilmmakerI try my best to forget about it
I really hoped there would be a deeper explanation of the spider in the sequel, whether it was delving a bit more into the Harkonnen's constant experimentation of life forms or the rumor that it was Dr. Yueh's kidnapped wife (although when he was sent to "join" her I imagine that should have dispelled that belief).
We saw them in “Arrival”. 😂😂
I hope it will look somewhat like the 1984 grotesque version. It looks physically very impractical and it's huge head hints at it's extraordinary mental capabilities I like the idea that being a navigator is a complete physical curse and prison counterbalanced by it's mental blessings.
Spot on!
There has to be tradeoffs. Otherwise you just end up with a bunch of super heroes.
This keeps it more realistic.
Thanks for your video.i like the navigators from all filmed versions but you are right that in the new films they are missing.greetings from Vienna/Austria from me jürgen vicepresident of Vulkan Spirit
Also in the book its stated if i remember no one as ever seen a guild navigator so it makes no sense to show them
As much as I love the DV movies, I think he shrouded the guild in too much mystery to the point that they are practically non existent. A few more scenes with the representatives in the background to remind us that they exist would have fixed this. Fingers crossed for Dune Prophecy
Yeah, more hints would've been nice!
The robed figures with massive headgear in Part One (the anoinment ceremony on Caladan) may be a small glimpse on these guys. I am sad that's gonna take at least three more years for Messiah, if not more.
@@azmodanpc Yeah they were Guild representatives
@@EdWiley671Thufir says "three guild navigators" but the guy in orange headgear are five. Maybe there's a discrepancy or two of these aren't full fledged navigators.
@@azmodanpc I think he was referring to the number of navigators required to transport the Imperial entourage
I think itll be hard to top the david lynch guild navigator, but i would love to see what villeneuve does. Hes already shown fantastic stylization with his rendition of giedi prime and the harkonnens, so im excited.
Yes, me too!
My first exposure to Dune 1984 was around 1986. I was 6 years old. My Mom was taping it for my adult sister from HBO. We came home from somewhere and turned on the tv just in time to catch the Baron pull the heart plug on someone and blood splatter everywhere. My Mom turned it off, but not before I got an eyeful. Same sister later got mad at me for writing sci-fi and horror short stories when I was a teenager. I really hope the guild navigators appear in Dune 3. But I will love it either way, I am sure.
Wow… I didn’t know HBO was around in the ‘80s
@ROVA00 Yep. HBO and ON TV. HBO (Home Box Office) first became available on November 8, 1972, launching as a subscription television service in the United States. It was initially available to subscribers in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, marking the start of its operation as a pay television service offering uncut and commercial-free movies and special events.
One thing is for sure.. The guild navigators at the end of book 1 are part of the reason why pauls threat works and the emperor has to abide. Maybe that's why the fremen immediately had to jump in ships to fight the houses at the end of the 2nd movie. It was kinda weird seeing them immediately jump on the warships. They knew how to fly them? The atreides army was destroyed and they seemed to make no prisoners of the harkonnens and saurdakars.
I can't remember the fighting starting right away in the books. I gotta go back and check it.
this is the easiest question: he wants to hold them back until Messiah.
Denis said he did Arrival and Blade runner in preparation for dune.
We'll, I can elements of blade runner in Dune. However, I can also see elements of the Guild navigators in Arrival: big aliens in a tank of gas within a brutalist looking spaceship??? We already know how Denis will execute the cinematography from this. He's definitely going to rehash what he learnt in Arrival.
Loved Arrival!!!
That's the way they were described in the "stories of your life" novela.
why does everyone keep saying that the navigators use the spice to fold space? the Holtzman engines do the folding, the navigators just chart the course by looking through time to make sure the path the take wont land them in a star or next to a black hole. They're like mentats but with prescience, doing heavy calculations while taking in the trajectory and chaos of space to make sure the heighliner makes it to the other side
Because that is how it was portrayed in the 1984 movie; they have seen that but not read the book, this is why they are confused
@@alastairmcleod3635 yeah but even in the 1984 movie the navigators are portrayed as plotting the course sadly it's not made very clear.
Well…
As someone who read the books more then once … I agree …
A lot is never mentioned in the film adaption, especially in the latest form from director D. Villeneuve .
Whilst visually stunning the whole concept of the relationship between the guild and the rest of the empire is totally missing.
Maybe the NEXT installment will change that … we’ll see 👍
thanks for covering this. I am disappointed in the absence of the Guild Navigators. And their relationship with the Bene Gesserit. Especially given the state of CGI and conceptual development. I wonder if Denis quietly tasked development and didn't see anything that rocked him.
I'm hopeful that the 3rd installment will include the navigators. They were one of the best parts of the 1984 version. They filled my thoughts with wonder and mystery as a child. While I am impressed by the advanced special effects in the new films, I think the design of worms in the '84 version made more evolutionary sense, and are better executed. Perhaps one of those times where models are better than CGI.
Were the guild navigators the inspiration for the heptapods in Arrival? in their gaseous enclosure behind glass?
Edric will make a triumphant entrance in Messiah!!
Thats weird, i dont remember Navigator being fully shown in the first book. Isn't the start of Messiah were a navigator is completely reveal?
I feel the same way. I know that part of the directors strategy is to leave us to speculate about the technology and keep us in the dark. It helps to build the intrigue and mystery. But, I want to see a navigator! I also really wanted to see some close ups of the highliner too! Folding the space inside of the highliner is a brilliant concept but I wish we could have seen a little more of the intricacies of how it worked. I know… mystery.
This is why I love the different Dune adaptations you can watch because each tells the story from another angle. Hopefully, Villeneuve will show the Navigators in Dune Messiah, as they play a major role in the coming story.
Edric is one of the main characters, he better show him and not give him the Thufir Hawat treatment lol. If anything, they should give Edric the same narrative weight and impact as the Baron.
One thing I did appreciate about the scene in 84 between the navigator and emporer, is how the navigator was able to see the ultimate plan the emporer was cooking up. Although it was heavy on exposition and explained everything too much, I appreciated how it provided a little context more and explained why Paul was a threat.
I gotta say, this was the thing i was most looking forward to seeing represented in the new films, much as I love them.
I would suggest the exclusion of Paul's sister Alia Atirdes and her poisoning of the Baron was the worst exclusion from the original source material. That along with the dropping of the death of Paul & Chani's son Leto really takes away from Paul's story development. The films are awesome but should be enjoyed as an interpretation of a literary masterpiece
A lot of people are upset about Denis V. excluding Guild Navs and “folding space” in what is essentially the first part of his take on Dune (the first 2 films).
First, there’s much more to come in these new adaptations. Second, it’s obviously not in any way critical to either of the films.
Weirdo Guild navigators tripping on heavy spice gas while tweaking Holtzman Engines is nifty and all, but who cares in light of what’s happening in the characters and politics of the story? It amounts to nerding out for nerds’ sake.
It’s like if you’re watching a heist movie about some dudes gathering to go over the big plan and then the director really wants to show the taxi driver’s experience and how internal combustion engines fire on cylinders! Who cares? It’s a pointless distraction from the emotional story AND the timeline of the story’s events.
I know some will say, “But, but, but Herbert WROTE about the Guild and the engines! It MUST be important!” Sure, it’s important to the medium of books that can be much longer and in depth and detailed. Of course, the Guild has a greater role in the universe of the books. Yet, movie adaptations have to streamline and cutting sci-fi space ship and travel mechanics seems a perfectly good detail to cut or at least highly limit.
I was actually looking forward to seeing Villeneuve's take on the navigators. I hope they do have an appearance in his next Dune movie
DV was too lazy to depict the guild navigators and thus bypassed the entire premise.
The Navigators have NEVER "folded space".
The Guild Navigator scene is the best part of the 1984 movie, it's weird and alien-like, it really makes you feel it's a real alternate reality where all this is really happening. I wish more directors were brave enough to show this kind of stuff, everything is bland these days in order to supposedly appeal to a wider audience.
It has popularized the David Lynch version. As so many now draw upon HIS visuals to discuss the navigators. So I believe it has the effect of honoring some of Lynch's work. It's Denis's way of saying, "Let's not touch or try to supersede this which David did so well".
I liked David Lynch's version of the Guild navigators.
The SyFy version is probably more accurate based on the book description.
I didn't expect a full on scene, but I would have loved to have seen a cameo to just show how travel works as part of the world building. That is something that I will never get to see from DV.
No weirding tech in the new films. I was looking forward to seeing that
What weirding tech? That's just rubbish from the 1984 movie.
Someone didn't read the book!
They should make an appearance in the next movie if it stays close to the book, "Dune Messiah". There are some foreshadowing from a couple of characters that will set the stage for Dune, Part 3 (Dune Messiah) which concerns a conspiracy. You can read the book to find out. Part 2 does a good job of leaving open ends for the next movie.
My dad LOVED Frank Herbert's Dune. So when the 1984 version came on one day, he was like "omg you're watching". Some of the key characters from the movies and the books that I thought were interesting (besides Sting being Feyd-Rautha that was badass) were the Spacing Guild, ESPECIALLY when I saw that the navigator's were large misshapen worms with tiny fins. I looked later at what Frank Herbert imagined the Navigators to look like and that's when I saw the humanoid fish looking navigator with long arms and legs, webbed feet and hands, and webbed ears. I TOTALLY thought Denis was going to have them in the movie. Even though they might not have held any significance for the characters in the story. THE FANS WERE DYING TO SEE ONE. YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE DUNE WITHOUT NAVIGATORS? that is a let down. Also real quick why are the harkonnen's all bald they have reddish hair or blonde???? They had hair if not, Lady J would be bald.... AND WHERE IS THE COUNT FENRING! THAT DUDE WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE DUNE CHARACTERS, just because he was a deadly fighter that did not look like a deadly fighter and he was smart
Lady Margot fenring was his wife right?? Now I remember
Have you read Dune? The Navigators are mentioned but they aren't characters in the book, so omitting them was perfectly fine - there was already a effing ton of lore to put in the movie. Edric shows up in Messiah, so we'll see them then. Count Fenring was an interesting character but not at all pertinent enough for the story Villeneuve was telling. And the Harkonnen being bald is an artistic choice and it easily can be reasoned that it's due to Geidi Prime's environment (like their black sun) and all the chemicals they pump in their bodies. Jessica never lived on that planet so grew up looking normal. They were redheads only in the Lynch adapation. Feyd in the book is described as having black hair.
I remember first watching the 1984 movie and thinking wow, the story tells itself. It looked forward and backward at the same time. The technology wasn't the centerpiece of the movie the people were. This was the thinking man's Star Wars.
I hope they make the navigators into god like entities , fish like in a giant Aquarium of spice melange just chillin seeing everything and everyone at all times .
I hope it’ll be Idris Alba in a sauna.
I believe they will include the Gil Navigator in part 3😊 hopefully
In the 1984 version the guild navigators help set the plot in motion by being prescient in seeing that Paul is a serious potential problem. The Bene Gesserit are trying in part to keep Paul safe in hope of controlling him, so at odds with the Navigators. Current Dune and the Bene Gesserit are the ones running everything from the shadows. I think it loses some power going from "the spice must flow" to "the Emperor just decides to end House Atreides from jealousy.
Some people have no patience... The first scene with a navigator in will be in Dune Messiah... Which is exaclty how it is in the books...
I thought you had 42k subscribers not 42! I mean really good video keep it up
Maybe one day! 😁
I also loved Villeneuve's two Dune movies and I think that if these strange characters appear in the third part, it would be something like a juicy, dripping dessert.
I would like to see an adaptation of the origin of the Navigators. How Norma Cenva became the first Navigator, and what she went through to figure out how to navigate through vast light years of space.
They’re absent because they don’t appear until DUNE messiah.
Yeah, but that scene blew my 14 year old mind when I saw it on VHS for the first time! 😁
@@JirocTheFilmmaker agreed but if Messiah ever gets made. You know Denis will have something special for us. The holy war and navigators will be in it.
@@JirocTheFilmmakersounds like a 'you' problem.
@@borrago that was a needlessly trolling reply.
@@Conpauleoninathe holy war that was mostly over at that point?
What I miss the most is TOTO's soundtrack.
I found his adaptation of the squid aliens in Arrival allready amazing. You can see similarities in style of space crafts between that movie and Dune in my opinion. I wouldn’t be surpried to see similarities between the navigators and the squids, allthough not them being squids, but more the setting.
There is a good point about not needing to worry about hitting anything. However, it's a matter of scale. We're not talking about crossing a solar system or moving through an asteroid belt. They were crossing the galaxy. A lot Higher more potential to run into something. And if not Zero it's too high a risk as they learned after the destruction of all thinking machines.
David Lynch's 3rd stage Guild Navigator was the best vision of Herbert's idea. Hope Villeneuve goes in that direction (channel some of the striking weirdness of 1984 Dune).
I just discovered dune a few years back. Im no expert. But i too would like to see the navigators. I find them really fascinating. Even a fully seperate work apart from the films or existing texts.
Although looking like a giant ballsac capable of folding space from X I really like the adaptation of the navigator in the 1984 movie. I was 9 years old when I saw it for the first time. Made a huge impression.
The navigators don't fold space.
I think we’re going to,see them in 3. They are key to the final decision of the houses and the culture to accept that Paul might use the atomic. Think we’re going to see more of Margot and count fenring, and a quick resolution of the split with chani. This may hope more than rational but they were all key to my love of the books 50 years ago.
Great analysis!. Thanks for making it.
I enjoyed both of the Sci-Fi Channel’s miniseries as well as the new movies, but each feels like only part of the whole story to me. The miniseries showed the mutual benefit between Paul and the Fremen with them teaching him the ways of the desert while he taught them the Bene Gesserit’s “weirding ways of battle,” while the movies neglected that combat altogether depicting Paul and Jessica just exploiting the Fremen. The movies showed the depths of the Bene Gesserits’ centuries-long manipulations of various planets’ cultures and governments while the miniseries just dabbled with that. The miniseries showed how much humanity’s economy and travel depended not just on the spice itself but also the Spacing Guild’s dominant control over its use while the movie just focused on showing it as a valuable psychoactive drug. The movies showed how common personal shield generators were used on and off the battlefield by upper class citizens and their armies while the miniseries briefly touched on them in a few scenes.
Kept TOO mysterious by Villeneuve. Simply left out. Folding space is so important. We needed to see more of it.
Critical high plot scene missing.
Oh and what happened to Thurfir Hawat in the 2nd movie?
Space ship looks like a Sand Worm.
Interesting
I have to admit I was taken aback by the title of your video since I’ve read the books. 😉 However, I have an iron-clad rule to never comment on UA-cam until I’ve watched the video. Now that I’ve watched it I can say I was pleasantly surprised and really enjoyed it. You explained right away that the Guild Navigators don’t appear until Dune Messiah and you’re expressing your own thoughts. Well done. 👍
I also wanted to add as someone who is older than dirt and who has been a science fiction and fantasy fan for decades I agree 100% that Dune Part 1 and Part 2 are among the best science fiction movies ever made. In fact, I consider them to be the best adaptations of a science fiction or fantasy novel ever.
And now my thoughts on the previous versions. I saw the ‘84 version when it was first released and absolutely hated it although it has bits that I liked. However, I don’t blame the wonderful David Lynch since it’s well-known that he lost control over the film. In fact, he has been very public about distancing himself from the finished film.
As to the Sci Fi Channel version, I enjoyed it through Paul and Lady Jessica’s escape but then got bored with it and lost interest. So, I can’t really review it. One of these days I’ll watch the whole thing.
I read Dune series in College in the 60s
Don’t they first appear in book 2?
I watched the 1984 film in the theater. I was already a huge Dune fan. I liked the film but was disappointed by the weirding module (sonic weapon) and the rain at the end. Without those two ridiculous additions I'd have been happier with it. I have since learned that Lynch disavowed it and there was massive studio interference. Looking back some of the acting hasn't stood the test of time.
Maybe he just didn’t want the movies to have a goofy element to it or venture too close to starwars, but focus more on the human struggles and stories.
I really like the 1984 movie due to its adaptation and inclusion of the schemes of corrino and the spacing guild from the get go
Its a shame feyd and corrino weren't as present (although I understand why )
Astounding that remakes have hardly ever be better than the originals, considering they have great source material to work from.
The thing that the recent remake of Dune misses is that there was actual dialogue in the fist Dune movie.
The Navigators will feature in Villeneuve's take on Dune Messiah - he was wise to hold them back in the first two movies because I believe they will be one of the highlights of Messiah.
I think in 1984 version of Dune; the Guild Navigators were presented for Shock value only. We already know, if you read Herbert's novels, that Spacing Guild is vital to Space travel. Hell, the timeline itself divided between BG and AG, Before Guild and After Guild, so you realize their importance to Galaxtic history.
Considering Messiah has a lot to do with negotiations and machinations with the Guild, it seems there's still scope for something neat.
I have few complaints about the new Dune, but this is, in my opinion, a weakness. I would have liked to see more about the Navigators too.
I think anything so creature like is not keeping with the director's vision. The worms were something that couldn't be avoided and even then he was very careful about how and when to show them. The navigator runs the risk of looking like a pulp magazine monster,no mater how well it is designed.
I am hopeful of extended editions once part 3 is finished. Hopefully since imax filming was used will get full 16 9 ratio with much less black bars as well as imax is taller. Might take a decade.
The most fantastic thing about Frank Herbert's Dune series, that we don't encounter true Aliens from another Galaxy. Everyone is a version of human evolution twisted by use of Space Melange. And point fail highlight, Once you take Spice your hooked for Life. Therefore only powerful and rich can afford maintain the habit. When you stop taking Spice, it's agonizing death.
In 2001: A Space Odyssey it was decided not to reveal the aliens' appearance that abducted Dave Bowman. Kubrick and perhaps Clarke decided any form offered would cheapen the movie. Perhaps it was the same here and Villeneuve knew of this example however, his alien creatures in Arrival was fine.
They haven't been seen by anyone in the book at that point. It is even pointed out that nobody knows how they look like, if they are still humans. Them being featured in the other adaptations is the abberation.
Outstanding video!
Dune 2 could’ve been two 3 hour movies
With Paul being a POV character, it makes sense that we don't get face time with a navigator. Oracles can't see each other. Feels like a creative choice, to exaggerate that to the point where the audience also doesn't see what Guild navigators are up to yet.
I've been a big fan of Lynch's films ever since I went to see it at the cinema as a child accompanied by my mother. I don't like Villeneuve's new version because it doesn't have that atmosphere, the Prophecy, the Messiah and his visions. I conclude that I have read all the books and I am a big fan of Herbert's Dune.
Edric is there from the beginning of Messiah to mask the plot from Pauls prescience but Denis diminished the Spacing Guild's political role in Dune so who knows. I hope he's there as it's an important part of the lore.
I kept thinking i must have just missed the scene and i try to remember during my next rewatch. But i always chuck a handful of edibles down my throat before watching so i never remember to keep an eye out.
The scene that I missed most was the dinner party. So disappointed that excellent scene wasn’t included. So many possibilities. Sigh.
F**king finally. Someone gets it! Also the emporium is viewed as the ultimate power but really the true power is found in the spacing guild.
Only in the Lynch version.... The Guild is very powerful but only one of the centres of power, the emperor, the landsraad, CHOAM, the BG are all powerful also
just look at your goldfish in your aquarium and you will find guild navigator swimming in spice
There is still a chance to see one. Since now both parts have been big hits, we can safely assume the next part will be coming. Will it be the last part? Only time will tell.
What I miss from that version? I do miss the "Spacing Guild" and the especially the "Guild Navigators". I am really a bit confused why he didn't show one of them, even more when you think about the fact that he showed us octopus-like creatures in a kind of gas tank in "Arrival"!? 🤔 Also I don't like the depiction of "Chani". These movies, especially the second one were a cool kind of "event" in the cinema. And I do like some movies from the director, especially "Blade Runner 2049". But I was a little bit disappointed with "Dune Part 2". Many will call me crazy but with all his flaws I still like David Lynch's version a little bit more. 😕
When I saw the 2021 part one i was remedially disappointed at the lack of their presence
After watching the new Dune 2 (about 10 times now) the lack of even hint of the guild navigators and their aids make the new movies feel fundamentally unfinished. I also find Chani's character illogical in the new movies, she is the lover and closest confidant but she's portrayed as the enemy within and the ultimate disbeliever in Paul. I think the 1984 pronunciations of the names have a better dramatic punch specifically Leto and Harkonen.
Yeah, I was really looking forward to how Denis would portray them, too .. 🤔
I miss the politics of the Guild.
"I see plans within plans."
You did see them in part one (they had helmets on) but Denis won’t show them in his version. The 84 version was too weird!
Those were Guild Representatives, not Navigators 😉
In the David Lynch movie right from the bringing they give us the gorgeous Virginia Madsen to tell us what the Spice is and WHY it's so important.
Just saying. 🙄
I was soooo in L❤VE!
The 1984 Dune worked for about the first half, then it felt rushed and very poorly done. That being said, there are pleasures in Lynch's visualization.
They didn't do enough to emphasize the importance of the Spice. Its the only "major" gripe I have about the movie. They technically covered it, but they didn't help you really understand it the way Lynch's Dune did. Otherwise, I thought Part 1 and 2 were a masterpiece (and yes, I recognize other divergences happened that were bigger on the plot, but I was okay with them).
Good comment. The Spice holds the Dune-iverse together and V. heavily glossed over it.
I feel like Dennis version might look similar to Arrival 2016 aliens and enclosure.
The navigator Edric is an active conspirator against Paul in Dune Messiah. We will almost certainly see him in that movie.
love your vedio thumbs up ! , can you name me the intro song to this vedio ?!
Truth. The Navigators were incredible. Villeneuve has made many omissions and deletions and changes from source material. I give his films a solid B for world building but certain things are rankling. I don't believe Villeneuve truly understands what Herbert was trying to portray.