Why Become A Spacing Guild Navigator? | Dune Lore
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- Опубліковано 18 тра 2022
- A discussion of the answer to the question of why someone would become a Guild Navigator and how this reasoning fits into the overall structure of the Duniverse.
The long process required to become a Guild Navigator would see a human’s mutation and total transformation into a being which was confined to a chamber filled with spice gas, and thereafter would be entirely reliant on others for their survival. Because of this, a common question that many readers of the Dune series have is just what would motivate an individual to undertake such an extreme and life altering transformation.
Spoiler warning if you are unfamiliar with Frank Herbert’s Dune series.
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Art Credits:
Guild Navigator by Daniel Martin www.artstation.com/dogenzeni
Guild Navigator by Alexandre Gianfreda www.artstation.com/alexandreg...
Dune by Frank Herbert by Marc Simonetti art.marcsimonetti.com/
Guild Navigator by Ralph Damiani www.artstation.com/ralphdamiani
Dune Atreides by Angel Alonso www.artstation.com/angelitoon
Guild Navigator by Marc Henry www.artstation.com/jinofski
Navigator by Nick Patterson www.deviantart.com/nicktheart...
Heighliners by Julian Faylona www.artstation.com/elementj21
Guild Navigator Mark Molnar markmolnar.com/
Edric The Guild Navigator by Scytales www.artstation.com/scytales
Images also sourced from the Dune RPG Game (Adventures in the Imperium) modiphius.net/pages/discover-dune-roleplaying-game
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Frank Herbert’s Dune Novels
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki
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I view it as finding a drug addict and telling him that he can live for hundreds if not thousands of years in the most perfect total drug high that he could ever experience and all he has to do is run a taxi service!! 🤠👍
Hell yeah, dude.
That's a cool way to see it!!
Hmm run a taxi service... so there is a catch
Yeah, but if you’re on a steady dose of drugs, 24/7, that eventually becomes your norm/baseline and no longer than a high.
@@L3uX We're talking about the Spice Malange! The Deeper you Go the Greater the High and then you begin to Mutate, with Each Stage of Mutation comes with New and Even More Levels of Intensity from the Spice!!! 😵💫😳
“Who is that over there snorting spice?”
“Oh that’s just the pilot.”
I was merely plotting our course, your Honor. / Whip Whitaker (Flight - the Movie).
NOSEDIVE!
@@muskulls4bones249 haha! Good one 🤣
@@muskulls4bones249, aaaaah…go for broke!!!
Bingo! 😂
The three great schools of dune all required tremendous sacrifice. The Mentats sacrificed their minds having the pathways in their brains shaped nearly from birth, & having no choice until their training was nearly complete. The Bene Gesserit sacrificed their right to self determination every member was a cog in the machine their place decided before they were even born. The guild was in many ways the simplest in it was based on ability. Only at the highest levels was sacrifice required & it was rewarded with centuries dancing among the stars playing with time and space. Though in all three schools failure was the rule not the option rising to the highest levels took unbelievable talent & effort.
I beilive all 3 of great Schools once we're considered to be of the highest possible attainable positions one could achieve in life, before Maud'dib that is! He changed everything.
That was beautifully written and explained. Very well spoken my friend. Completely agree
Brilliant!! summed it up perfect and very well put. I like dealing with people who know what theyre on about and you certainly do my friend. 🤝🏽
Well put. You really don’t see any individuality when it come to these powerful groups. Everyone seems a part of something in the books.
@@zippersocks Yes & no in extremely efficient organizations the compound creative output is so smooth and fluid. That what seems to be in one voice is actually many in concert. In the prequel books when the Duke chooses lady Jessica the social engineering is so well done most reader do not even notice.
I think by the time a guildsman has progressed through the ranks to the point of taking the final test and starting the mutation, they've been primed for it and any concern over giving anything up ( family, friends etc) has long since been stripped away.
Or outlived. Considering Spice’s geriatric properties…
And there is that spice is enormously addictive and you seem to get the most spice as a navigator.
I'm afraid you got that backwards only when the mutation starts to take effect do the tests truly start, as all the failed navigators that service The navigators can attest to. Their bodies have become mutated monstrosities neither human nor navigator but something in between.
Forever only able to glimpse at what they cannot achieve themselves so they find solace in serving those that have. So if you start to look more deeply into it it's not like they have much of a choice still mostly addicted to spice and their half mutated state they wouldn't survive very long outside the guild with the amount of spice they need to survive.
So perpetual slavery to those that fail and to those that succeed.
@@anarex0929
I believe the mutations occur because the body is simply discarded...since they are all brain.
@@User_Un_Friendly
True.
I believe these navigators cosume so much melange that their minds go beyond human.
At this point...trivial things like family or friend are simply unimportant. Even their bodies are discarded.
These beings get to live thousands of years.
Their stare of mind is so advanced I don't think they even remember their past lives.
a lot of ppl think that the navigators actually fold space themselves, but really machines do that part. they use prescience to find a safe path/timeline and in that in-between spacetime can glimpse a lot more of the hidden secrets of the universe
You have read further than many. It is only later that Ixian machines can make the calculations necessary to plan and execute a safe jump, if I remember correctly.
@@Lurker-dk8jk yes the no ships, but even they were close to being detected & captured by the face dancers (or omnius if you read the crap from his son). it was the prescience (& memories) that initially made jumping safe. leto forced unsafe jumps in the scattering to (again) force the tech to be invented to ironically prevent prescience from existing.
i liked how the last version of BSG (reboot, please!) maybe hinted at this since jumping blind was almost always deadly, & needed a lot of calculation
@@c.ladimore1237 Yeah. In BSG it was the hybrids that jumped the Cylon basestars. Navigators by a different name.
Which is what confuses me. So are they truly necessary? Are only necessary for accurate travel?
@@jonny-b4954yes they are, they navigate a safe path, without them there is an extremely high chance of a ship just folding itself into a planet or the sun and disappear
edit: i havent gotten to that part yet (im still a novice dune reader) but apparently during the scattering, the space travel regulations loosen up and collision cases skyrocket, so there ya go
Given the fact that the society imagined in the Dune universe was feudal, the chances are that Guild Navigators were not given any choice about their occupation. I could imagine the Guild taking gifted children as "Tribute", just as the Ottomans kidnapped young children from the lands they conquered to become Janissaries.
They exist today and are called Black Cab drivers in London, and process a thing called The Knowledge! They live their lives cocooned in taxi cabs and navigate the vastness of London.
lmao
Are they also mutated addicts?
@@pummeluff230actually according to some studies they actually have a larger hippocampus as a result of studying to become a cab driver
So yes technically
Just read Mentats of Dune, they talk a bit about the Navigators. As compaired to the training it to to become a mentant a mind had to be rather rigid while to become a navigator it required a more flexiable mind with a hunger for knowledge. Not every one turned to a navigator agreed with it at first. One navigator was actually a spy that was caught and he was turned into a Navigator against his will, but after the transformation he was no longer upset and was rather greatful for the experience and devoted the his creators.
What is life in the confines of a cell; only to explore the universe in their minds only?
Never to feel the wind or sun on your skin, the touch of a loved one, or the taste of your favorite dish is not a life I would wish on anyone.
But I did not say this; I was not here.
Every human explores the universe only in the confines of the mind a body is just as much a prison as a cell the wind on your skin is just a series of electrical impulses . Freedom isn't a physical thing its a state of mind and guild navigators are the pinnacle of freedom they have nearly reached omnipotence as close as a human can get they care little for a body when they are literally one with space and time, they will live for eternity in their own perspective's as they can and will see and feel every moment in time when jumping through space.
If the idea of living in your mind doesn't appeal - then it is you who are trapped inside your mind.
@@baldeagle6113 or.... They are just hallucinating on drugs. You are also your body as much as your mind, nothing is as imprisoning as literally being in a cell on drugs.
Writing it on a phone through Internet - the only reason most of us even ever met or talked to each other is ironic.
Nerd Cookies, you just nailed it. Humanity has always had individuals who are the civil engineers, architects, “Steersmen’” as it were. Damming the Nile, The Aqueducts, Running Water, Septic Systems-And Now Folding Space. I Have Known Many MathManiacs Who Would Dedicate Their Lives To Absorb Spice To Reach A Higher Level Of Mathematics..
Yeah, there are a lot of jobs that are kind of like this IRL. Why would someone become a doctor? It's a very difficult path that you need to dedicate *at least* a decade of your life to before seeing any results. Constant stress, heavy responsibilities, higher risk for almost all diseases, and statistically, you'll die almost 10 years earlier than if you hadn't been a doctor. The money isn't even *that* good, there are other jobs that give you similar financial returns for much less sacrifice. But for some people, the meaningfulness it offers, the thrill of the puzzle and of the stakes of solving it, and the almost undivided respect you get in any room you enter is worth it in the end.
Lynch’s Guild Navigator was one of the reasons his film had such lasting impact on me. It was horrifically beautiful, cloaked in mystery and power, and the intimidation experienced by Emperor Shaddam was palpable.
I hope Villenueve devotes as much budget and screen time to emphasize these visionary creatures. I’m sure the heptapods in Arrival were influenced by Navigators in some way.
Are you kidding? You HAVE to be kidding. Lynch's Navigator was grotesque. Combine the gross Navigators and the bald Reverend Mothers, and the .. Baron, and you have nothing attractive in the universe at all. Lynch's vision is so ugly, that when I saw it in the theater, and Paul first sees Chani, and says to himself, "she's beautiful", the whole audience laughed, because Lynch seemed to have sucked all of the beauty out of everything, including Sean Young, making this observation ludicrous.
Come on people this is based on a series of scifi novels dealing with the most high Gods of western society... COMMERCE..WEALTH and POWER..
Evan ,, I too am obsessed with the guild navigator
The exotic mystery of the Spacing Guild and its Navigators is my favorite part of Dune!
The books Frank's son wrote from his notes explain a lot of the process as two characters are brothers who are attempting to become navigators and one fails so you get an idea of what is required to become one from the brother who succeeded, and their initial reasons for wanting the position.
I'm guessing this is Navigators of Dune? Sounds interesting.
Humans do it all the time for seemingly less, so I don’t think it is unusual people would want to become navigators. The example I use would be monasticism. Particularly Orthodox monasticism. They give up everything for enlightenment, closeness/union with God ( deification) ie family, possessions, sex, company, wealth etc. Great video
as always! :)
But those are meaningless subjects including the idea of god itself when faced with being an actual god.
@@gogodaal7273 Its the attainment that is attractive..even the monasticists are seeking it...Herbert's creations actually attained it but nonetheless the impulse was identical.
@@gogodaal7273 lol being mutated and trapped in a jar xD
@@ForageGardener a god in a jar. We could make a religion out of that
Not to mention the self-mummified Japanese monks. For some people it's impossible to exist within what other people consider perfect happiness. Maybe it's a mental defect that drives people to stray so far from the simple but also much more evolutionary sound motivations that completely guide the lifes of most. I guess thousands of years ago it began to manifest that when a number of individuals tend to become preoccupied with phenomena or subjects unrelated to their immediate reproductive success and survival it eventually benefits the whole group.
I can’t wait for part 2 of Denis Villeneuve’s Dune. I wonder if he’ll be showing us a Guild Navigator on the big screen, if so, it would be interesting to see what he’s got in mind.
If there's one thing Villeneuve is good at, it's visual ingenuity. I'm just worried the studio might not let him go wild with the Navigators - not make them _weird enough._ That's why I love Lynch's Navigators most - they're F***ING MONSTROUS.
@@headrockbeats Monstrous IS the word, which is why I prefer, and have been called to account for it...the Navigators that were presented in the SyFy adaptations of Dune and Children of Dune. Mental ability honed to its razor sharp edge doesn't require a whale sized body. Just decades of training. Big isn't necessarily better.
I think we already have. The white-clad figures with the large helmets, with details obscured by an opaque orange color, in the scene were Duke Leto accepts governorship of Arrakis. I mean, the Mentats don't have stained lips the way the book describes, perhaps another artistic decision was made.
@@Michael_Smith-Red_No.5 hmm, if those were really the navigators, it must have been just a glimpse into the very beginning of its life cycle before any major physical metamorphosis.
@@michaelfisher7170 Right, but it illustrated just how inhuman they'd become. The fish-like things from SyFy might be more accurate to the source material, but I don't think they do a very good job illustrating just how much a Steersman sacrifices for the privilege.
To your point, Mentats also train for decades to hone their minds, as do the Witches... but the Steersmen go one huge step further, and they _pay_ for that step.
After watching this video, I just realized how truly the Fraufaluches is based on European feudalism. Rigid class structures with little room for mobility outside your class. The Guild is like the Catholic Church. Motivations for joining it might at first be just to get out of your town and be able to travel Europe and enjoy luxuries that your original class would not have afforded you. Overtime, as you rise up in the organization, the interests of the organization become paramount. As bishop or pope, you do everything to further its influence, you forget your old ties to your family, you even forego reproduction altogether. That’s why Villenueve’s depiction of Guild members in priest-inspired costumes just feels so perfect now.
I would go even further. I think it is more rigid than the european one. It is more like the Japanese of Chinese feudal system in regards of which the european one was nearly lax.
I read that Villeneuve said that the clan of priest-looking characters with the member of the Imperium shown in the first few minutes of the movie are not actually Guild members in early transition. They were just a random depiction for the Imperium. Interesting since it really does fit the look of an early Guild Steersman.
Arab cultures are class structures
@@Asperger0815 nah bro you got no Idea how truly rigid european feudalism was
It would take over a century to reach the point where one could advance to the higher ranks.
By that time all your loved ones would be dead from old age
So glad to see more Dune content from you. Navigators are so fascinating, their only motivations always seem to be simply more spice. All other powers want spice to gain additional luxuries but navigators don’t seem motivated by physical pleasures only spice itself.
They are true addicts, totally dependent on it for everything including life itself. Not too different to a heroin addict, in principle.
@@Twittler1 Almost no difference except heroin will only make you think you can see beyond, spice is the real deal lol
@@Doobie603 and this one is what the epitome of "functional addicts", where his/her addiction actually elevate the standing and utility of such person for entire community.
@@Doobie603 I did say ‘in principle’ regarding the nature of addiction.
@@Twittler1 I definitely do not disagree with you just wanted to add my two cents
Unfortunately, most characters in the Dune books don’t seem to have much of a choice into where they end up working or what their life will be like. I guess that was what life was like for much of human history too. Even the most privileged and powerful characters with prescience struggle with being forced into futures they don’t enjoy.
I personally see a lot of appeal in the idea of becoming a navigator because I’d like to transition past humanity into something else with less flaws if given the opportunity. I enjoy exploring potential for post humanism through sci fi and imagining how we could better (or sometimes worsen) ourselves.
Thats how it is for most people. We like to think we have choice. But, I can guarantee you that the most priveledged even in developed nations have a choice. Most people in the US or Europe don't have much choices. They have some, but at that point it is what kind of flavor of job you want. You won't have the connections to make it in major entertainment industries; hard work can certainly help you but its an uphill battle. You can choose a standard 9-5 job but like i said the flavor changes. Its still the same. We are bound by choices made by others. I can't go start a commune and chill out in the woods; I can but there are a ton of legal tape that makes that difficult. I can't get away from society and stop paying taxes. Doesn't make that slavery, it makes it civilization.
A spiritual action.
@@MasterGhostf Get rich and you can escape most of this, and be free
The guild navigators not only sacrificed their human form but also their humanity. That was the difference between Paul and his children and the guild's navigators. At the very least that's my take from all the books I've read. Keep up the wonderful work of information and entertainment.. Thank you..
Leto 2 the God Emperor did not lose his human form and humanity?
@@edsmale after a few hundred years he began to start to resemble a worm, by the time he was killed 3500 years he was a worm according to the atraties. True he by the most part he did keep his humanity yet twords the end of his life the worm was take over more and more..
@@JRMshadow260a I would disagree that he kept his humanity. He was the biggest tyrant and murderer of billions, all the while (since 9 yo) not in human form.
Do you mean Paul and (his children and the navigators) or (Paul and his children) and the navigators?
Except we know that the Bene Gesserit have the ability to prolong their lives indefinitely, but _choose_ not to do so in order to hide their capabilities. Given this, I have trouble accepting the explanation within the logic of Dune's canon that an extended lifespan would be enough to entice someone into what amounts to slavery within the Spacing Guild. I think it's more likely that prospects are introduced when young to small amounts of melange to test them, and that as they pass further tests and are exposed to increasingly larger doses of melange, they become so addicted that they will do _anything_ to get more.
:(
If you’re not a bene gesserit you wouldn’t know any of that though, would you? I think there’s a lot of people who would be willing to become hideous mutants just to be so high on spice that they become psychic and live forever, though likely most would be found unsuitable as candidates for whatever reason, just like with any elite and privileged profession in society.
@@doomguy9049 What I meant by "within the logic of the canon" is that if Herbert believes the Bene Gesserit would choose willingly to allow themselves to die rather than live forever just to hide the capabilities the Weirding Way gives their order, then immortality is not a very strong inducement within the cultural milieu Herbert has created.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace I understand, but the Bene Gesserit are hardly representative of the average person in any way. They're genetically engineered and heavily indoctrinated their entire lives to be as they are.
@@doomguy9049 By the way, I thought you should know, your comments are being censored. I'm not sure why. I can see them because viewing replies provides a direct link to the comment, but no one can see them just scrolling through the comments. Log out and you'll see your comments vanish. You seem to be shadow-banned.
I hope we get a thorough scene by Villeneuve when Paul is "talking" to the Guild about his ability and willingness to destroy their spice.
Rip
Wow. So many channels that talk about these novels do such a poor, surface-level job of it. And often just end up rambling or trying to dramatise. But in discovering this channel today, I’ve found the videos high quality and well-scripted. You set out a question and attack it in detail from the relevant angles, with little supposition on your part. I imagine you wrote great essays at school/college. 👏👏
I first read Dune as a 6th grader in 1965! The "surface story" was all I discerned then, much like anyone who sees any film depiction of this work is ever going to understand coming through the filters of the movie industry. I have revisited the Dune saga periodically, each time coming away with a richer perception of this literary masterpiece: stories within stories! Thankyou for sharing your erudite contributions on UA-cam. Becoming a Steersman is not about becoming a drug addict at all but logically within the caste of the Guildsmen being selected with the "right stuff" to ascend to that level. So only young people in that caste would be groomed to accept what that meant if chosened, an outsider could never be under normal circumstance.
Leto exchanged his humanity for immortality and prescience by becoming the Worm and ruled an empire for 3500 years. Guild Navigators found similar appeal with the prospect of immortality and prescience with the exchange of their human form.
EXACTLY!
And Paul saw what it would take to walk the Golden Path and didn't have the stomach for it. Thus his son had to sacrifice his humanity.
3,500 years is not immortality.
[gloomily] The misuse of the word "mutation" is irritating. Let's not add "immortality".
Thats not WHY he did it. He needed those things for the reason he did it
@@sarnxero2628 Paul saw the Golden Path, but didn't take it because it terrified him. But, that was not the only reason. The real reason Paul didn't take the Golden Path was he wasn't strong enough with prescience to see it was the only path that didn't lead to humans becoming extinct. Paul was desperately trying to find another path not knowing he never would. This was all explained when Paul met Leto in the desert and they had their big argument about it. Paul was never strong enough to take the Golden Path anyway. He would have eventually failed... Ghanima would have failed also. She admits this to Leto. Leto was the only one who was ever strong enough with prescience to take the Golden Path and to succeed. To summarize: If Paul had taken the Golden Path, humanity would have went extinct.
Thank you Nerd Cookies for helping me understand the Dune universe more than I did before
I preferred the first book when navigators were not shown and the mutations were simply rumours.
To me it implied that the guild was pushing these rumours in order to discourage other great houses to create their own navigators.
It is also shown at the end that they had agents undercover within the emperor’s court, showing they were normal except for their blue eyes, hidden by special lenses.
In one of the "new" DUNES, a person underwent the navigator test and said "I can see mathematics". That would be reason enough for me.
Getting high all day and virtually living forever sounds pretty good overall
My thoughts:
The Dune Universe is, politically, an interstellar monarchy. Getting into either the Bene Jesserit or Spacing Guilds would be something akin to getting into an Ivy League school.
The Bene Jesserit are clandestine. They do technically control the Imperium from the shadows, So they're more akin to female free masons or eastern stars that plan the routes of royal and sub-royal houses over millennia, if you will. The Spacing Guild is more akin to an energy company, like with oil and Rockefeller's monopoly. As for the Choam company, they're the economic part of the Imperium. With the harks at the top in the billionaire class, House Corrino and Atreides being a lower billionaire class but having more pull with the other branches of the political tripod. While much of its structure resembles an interstellar monarchy, it's more of a caste interstellar parliamentary aristo-oligarchy, with its Emperor usually being either the most popular or the richest of the royal caste. You're pretty on the nose but it's still a bit more nuanced than a simple monarchy.
As would be working for the emperor's ranks (outside of military/Sadaukar service, of course)
No, nothing like as easy as that. In both cases, you are chosen from those born to existing members - you and your ancestors have no say in the matter, save perhaps the right to decline the ‘honour’.
@@Twittler1 the existing members of the BG have a history of wavering adherence to their order's rules for that (Ask Lady Jessica). And as for the SG, uh... I am not aware of the order having an internal breeding campaign that the BGs have... So it seems that they recruit, rather than generate Navigators-to-be.
Their world, like our world is controlled by bloodlines.
I always thought/imagined them spending the majority of there time peering through time and space in ways humans cannot. That would lead many to want this role and to consume more spice overtime.
I just love how you produce your videos. Excellent voice, enthralling narration and great music behind it. Just something to look up to :)
YAY! I asked this very question on "Dune Lore: The Rise and Fall of the Spacing Guild". Thank you for addressing it!
Absolutely love your Dune videos! Hope to see more on events from later books!
Imagine some spice shortage because some prick revolutionary leader on arrakis, and you don't get enough spice anymore as a navigator and now you're just a giant horrible monster
As a profoundly higher being, why would one assume that they consider individuality to even be a thing. They would perceive on a religious level where they are one with everything and thus such concerns are merely projected onto them by lesser beings who do not possess enlightenment.
Yes, but they don’t exist as any kind of ‘higher being’ when they make the decision to join or accept invitation to, the Guild. They’re just ordinary schmoes at that point.
Even though born into a Guild family.
@@Twittler1 You are obviously wrong. In the lore, EVERY Fremen is addicted to spice. Nobility drink spice beverages daily. It is entirely normal for the upper class to be spice addicts. There is no chance at all that people from the peasant class get to become navigators. The lore says that caste mobility is almost non existent.
Anyone in line to be a navigator, has been a heavy spice user their whole life. Real humans can gain enlightenment with no spice at all. Heavy lifelong spice users in family lines that are trained from childhood in mind religions and mathematics are absolutely far more transcendent than the 'ordinary schmoe'.
The guild is full of heavy spice using trained people who never rise so high as navigator.
People chosen for the most elite position and training of all showed the most promise for it.
They were GIFTED to be chosen at all.
@@gravewalkers Obviously?! You write as though this was all real - it’s all a fantasy, a literary construct. Get a grip of yourself. I may have been wrong in the detail, but not in the greater scheme of things. The ordinary ‘schmoe-ness’ I mentioned is relative to the culture they belong to, and I’m fully aware of the caste system that’s in place. I assumed I didn’t have to mention that specifically.
I’ll be sure to consult with you the next time I want to say something about ‘Dune’. I wouldn’t want your tightly constricted pedant’s mentality to implode on you.
@@Twittler1 Yes; Dune being one of the greatest books ever written, my contributions to its understanding is undertaken with the utmost seriousness and respect, 'as though it was real' as you would describe it. I certainly will not ever short change it. As far as your triggered feelings, I frankly don't care. Tell your lover your feelings. I'm a random stranger. Treat me accordingly. If you don't like my grip, too bad; it won't be throttled for your benefit.
These Dune videos are very interesting, keep up the great work Elaine!
When I was in kindergarten, they told me that I could be anything when I grew up.
So I decided to become a drug-addicted Goldfish :)
Yet more excellent content! Thank you! I really hope we get to see a navigator in Dune: Part 2 next year.
"The spice must flow!, it has given us the metaphysical ability to fold space! We see plans within plans."
One of my favorite scenes in the lynch film, the way that 3rd stage navigator talked to emperor shadam was epic
One question I've often wondered; who or what LED the Spacing Guild? Surely the Navigators and Steersmen were important, but they were often unknown and unseen; their forms hidden, and contact with them largely restricted. Their forms were also wholly dependent upon other people to maintain them, and their minds, while broadened, were often focused on their profession, or greater mysteries than I'll worry about, so who actually conducted the Guild? I imagine many of these high-ranking men and women were basically just like another Great House of the Laansrad; this "House Holtzman" would have e been regular people, like those of House Atreides, Harkonnen, or Corrino, with some spice use to lengthen their lives, but not Navigators. It would be interesting to know these wheelers and dealers. Did THEY view the Navigators as awesome, or did their proximity, and place as the caretakers cause them to just see tools that they used to steer the Imperium? Was the absolute head of the Guild a Steersman, or one of these humans among them?
Personally, while I can see the appeal in just being so awesome, I'm unsure how they would entice the prospective candidates to join. Eventually, the Spice addiction would get them, or the mind-altering secrets of their precognative abilities would change them to the point they wouldn't care, but there was so much they kept secret, and there was so little freedom among these learners. There wasn't a window wherein they got to flaunt their wealth, and status, before the changes made that impossible; I almost imagine the efforts taken to make them anew would be draconian, leaving them immersed in the concentrated Spice for as long as possible, and bombarding their warping minds with the new education they would need. They'd be allowed to rest only as long as required, and then put back in, all to forge a new Navigator as quickly as possible, and burnouts would happen, but who would ever know? It's a spot where I like to compare them to the Warhammer 40k version GW mostly ripped off from Dune. These mutants live in the lap of luxury, even as many in the Imperium would burn them, if they weren't so crucial to warp travel. They, too, are heavily changed, but they have times where they are not working, and they can enjoy their monstrous wealth. They, too, rarely go out among regular people, but they can enjoy the perks of their position; they are born to it, though, so one can't really be coerced into joining; you either have the gene, or you do not. In Dune, though, it seems you could "enlist", but then you disappear, and you are quickly changed to a being who gets nothing, though maybe by that point your "wants" ate so different this doesn't bother you.
It’s because after the Jihad all supercomputers required for space time travel were outlawed. So they needed to find a way to make split second calculations without a computer. Thus they created the navigators.
1:32 The way the question is phrased explain why they couldn't answer it. "What would motivate an individual to..." But that's a very modern Western world perspective. Very little of human history or human experience has been about individualism or individual choice. Most humans who've ever lived spent their lives in a role they were born to and groomed for, whether that was peasant farming or ruling over others. And most humans who'd ever lived would be baffled if you asked them what motivated an individual and you expected an answer other than hunger or "I was chosen" or "my parents did this".
Most of human history is based on free will. Endless opportunity.... Yes you have the occasional arranged marriage and slaves, but that is a small percent
@@commiehunter733 How naive you are!
@@commiehunter733 The planet you imagine sounds very pleasant, but here on Earth, most marriages through history and for all classes have been arranged by parents, and the vast majority of people only had the "opportunity" to do whatever their parents did. The choices we have in the modern world are exceptional.
Individualism (free-will?), to a large extent, is an illusion. A person decides what to become based on what is currently available and accessible to them by their socioeconomics, culture, and physical and mental ability. Stories and movies are made from the most exceptional cases in which a person defies all obstacles and attains a role outside of the forces that control them (Paul comes to mind). These are great exceptions and in everyday life very rarely occur. This is why Paul is such an incredible character. Paul broke free of all that controlled his destiny to become truly exceptional. His actions were beyond motivation of choice, but rather motivation beyond human understanding.
The motivation of a guild navigator is the same. A motivation beyond human understanding and beyond the superficial human concern regarding body shape, pride, dignity, and so on. The motivation is not human and therefore beyond the readers ability to fathom. In the search to understand the navigators motivation, the reader stumbles into the question of motivation not tethered to human form or other human limitations.
Thanks to "Jerry's Stories" for this topic.
Great work! You answered all my questions, thank you. I never completely understood those several topics that you covered so succinctly. Your Vivid explanation really clarified the transformation and the reasons how and why. You make a great teacher!
Thank you!
@@NerdCookies my pleasure.
Can you please expound on the Guilde navigators' training, motivation, and personal lives?
Thank you
Well presented and produced. From your riveting voice to the visuals and music, I enjoyed every minute.
I'm writing a sci-fi novel which handles civilization and space travel a little differently, so it's fun to compare the differences in how Herbert posed and solved different problems with my own.
After seeing so many Dune lore videos, I guess you win. Guess I'm subscribing, finally 😻
I've once again navigated to another nerd cookies video. Another good one Elaine.
There is a personality for every job and in an intergalactic empire with trillions upon trillions of inhabitants you are likely to find a few individuals who would try Guild life. For one reason or another. Personally, I would rather try out for the Fremen track and field team than become a four armed octopus. To each their own, I suppose.
I rather be a navigator for example. You get to see what very few can, you travel the stars and you gain prestige and power. Plus you are helping millions in the process to get products, peoples, ideas etc from one planet to the next. Fremen live in a desert planet, just the heat there is enough to put me off.
You would rather? That's like saying you'd rather be the Queen of England. You didn't HAVE any such choices. You don't "Try out" for the life of a Fremen; if you encounter one, you're likely dead before you can ask "how can I join?" Paul and Jessica survived not just on their own wits, but on dropping the Liet-Kynes name and knowing the secrets of the Missionaria Protectiva.
@@BrightBlueJim You made quite a few jumps there. At no time did I suggest that such a choice existed. It was entirely hypothetical. You missed the point entirely on several levels. As well, if I am trying out for the Fremen track and field team, I would already BE one. Drink your juice of Sapho.
I don't know that it is ever addressed but, a tiny amount of spice taken regularly doubles a person's life span. Every member of the spicing guild could well be practically immortal.
Its all fun and games until that fateful day when they hear the words "sorry bro, weve run out of spice and its looking like there wont be anymore for a few decades."
One of the things I like most about Herbert's vision as well as other authors, is that he envisions a future so advanced that it is almost classical in nature. Asimov achieved this as well in Foundation, and Ultra Ultra Games managed to create a truly awe-inspiring mythos for their one and only game, Echo. These worlds embody the concept of technology becoming so advanced that it would seem to be magic.
I think that's more of from a lack of ability to imagine what the future would really look like so they rely on older civilisations to tell the story.
Such a crazy universe. Ships travelled thru stars for how many 100’s/1000’s of years to find these worlds, then Arrakis, then figure out what spice would do, then commit a lifetime to spice. Mind-boggling
It's interesting to see different variations of space navigators. Most originate from Frank Herbert. From the navigators of warhammer 40k to those in the novel galactic north. They all touch on the fact that to navigate through the vast distances of space, you will have to make great sacrifices whether it be your human form or the state of your mind.
Hey Cookie!!!
I love you and your awesome work.
I guess in the Dune universe...being a navigator...always submerged in melange...gives you awesome prescience and faculties many would want. The mutation is a consequence. These beings are mind and no body..they are very powerful and essential to the universe.
Would be Interesting to See the Evolved form of a Shai-Hulud given they've only Encountered Spice in it's Unrefined Form.
Shai-Hulud or makers are just fremen names for the sandworms. Their larvae or little-makers are what produce the melange in "spice blooms".
That's why melange is found only where there are sandworms, and according to the books they ignore the spice so you'd have to manage capture of a worm and force a ton of spice gas onto it which might just kill it as they often died when attempts were made to relocate them.
You'd likely have to try moving them in the "sandtrout" phase and then gas a smaller adult worm. I'm not sure of what use it might be though, maybe accidentally make a giant psychic worm?
Love your content as always. Gotta say I always thought it was a spice melange liquid, never thought it was a gas, interesting to find that out.
It can be gas or liquid.
@@quixotiqhell, it could be both. Supercritical spice melange
Cheers for the vid. Great work as ever.
It was all about "Prescience!" Guild members who's natural prescience was enhanced by the spice inevitably saw their path in the universe. Their job was to effectively bridge across the universe, and not bump into anything. Traveling faster than the speed of light, Herbert postulated would require seeing into the future. Those who saw their path(s) most clearly, were destined to become navigators. As I understood it, they had to be on that path for generations. The steersman, I thought were after generations had lived entirely in spice. Like your parents and grandparents were mutations who had live in spice and already chosen your future.
Look deeply into a Navigators heart, and you will find someone who isn't driven by reward, punishment, gain, power or faith.
You will find a being born bereft of the drives of humanity, but still feeling the drive to want 'more'.
The space between spaces is such a place to search; Spice and the power that comes with it aren't the goal, merely the tools.
I cannot help but think Folding to be a pleasurable act, the culmination of intense preparation and focused attention, perfectly timed.
I think I need a cold shower...
Greg called a big one😅
I really wish we could have seen denis villeneuve's interpretation on the navigators. I think they would have looked so cool within the aesthetic of his films. Maybe in Dune Messiah?
Your voice is great, comforting, makes the video very easy going, thanks
Thank you 🙏
I really hope that they give us a good scene featuring the guild navigator, like i want a really trippy scene. I want my mind blown.
One thing about them is they could also affect the future. They may need to find a way to navigate safely, but they'd also be well aware of the changes each passing moment would impart, so even just a 10 second difference in going on a journey, would be able to alter future events for all passengers. In that way, they could even technically achieve desired outcomes. Also since their minds could essentially leave their bodies in a sense, they could also experience many more things than they ever could physically as a normal person, which could be fulfilling. They for example may not be able to feel the love of someone, but they could feel the love someone has for someone else, and almost live in those moments as if it was themselves experiencing it. Not quite like that, but their abilities allowed them to essentially live multiple lives remotely in a way, not necessarily through affecting action, but through experience, including sensory experience from anyone's perspective they wished, almost making them everyone in a sense from their perspective. So they may have been stuck in a tank, but mentally they weren't.
Aint that the logic behind the internet and parasocial relationships
Ethical to sacrifice my human form for a position of power? Please, I'd sacrifice my human form for _waaaaaaaaaaaay_ less than that!
How about doing a video about No-Ships? I'd love to see that.
My personal theory is that the navigators don't find out what they're going to become until it's too late, and everyone else (including most Guild employees) think navigators are just normal people who have to inhale a lot of spice during their work, but once the ship lands they get out of the tank and just have a normal life. Maybe that's why the navigators are so guarded.
Pavane is pronounced pahvahn, a slow processional piece of music dating back to the 1600s
Guildsmen:
You will experience knowledge and beauty beyond description, transcending all human experience, rocking with the beat of space and time, swaying with the music of the sphere. And you will be at the pinnacle of power and reverence of the most powerful organization in the universe...
Me:
But I won't be able to bone?
The final iteration of Duncan Idaho was the true Kwisatz Haderach. Good video; nice explanation.
Reminds me of chamans or monks, changing their mental state and sacrificing many pleasures of life in order to *guide* their communities spiritually... may seem like a hard life, but supposedly they have unique experiences.
I found an underlying theme in all of the Dune books I have read over the years of the consequences of turning away from one's own humanity. From the advent of, and eventual takeover by, the thinking machines, the transformation into cymeks, the physical mutations that spice brings...all over them illustrate the lengths people will go to in order to make their lives easier and "better". But they never see that what they are actually doing is ending their life because the very being they are has to be cast away and destroyed. They throw away their humanity and become something far less for nothing more than an illusion. The navigators become prisoners of their addictions for the illusion of power and the power they gain can be used for nothing more than to continue their addiction.
turning away from one's own humanity while claiming to become more human
Great analysis, thanks for posting this! Keep it up and God bless you :)
I've had such an odd way to learn the Dune universe (and the MCU, for that matter).The extent of my knowledge until finding your youtube channel was the David Lynch film, the SciFi miniseries, and playing Dune2000 and Emperor: Battle For Dune on PC. Since I'm an uncultured swine, I've never read any of the books.
All that probably explains why I didn't even know that navigators were human---I thought they were just random science fiction aliens that were essentially the only ones capable (and therefore entirely controlled) faster than light interstellar space travel.
AFAIK there aren't any intelligent lifeforms in the Dune universe other than humans. There's some animals but no other alien races.
A fellow Dune and MCU fan? My mannn 🤝
Henry chuckled when I said the status is not worth the sacrifice of chocolate and sex.
If the spacing guild and the guild navigators knew who Paul was going to become once House Atreides arrived on Arrakis, then why did they even allow House Atreides to go to Arrakis in the first place? If the large consumption of spice melange is what allows the guild navigators to become so clairvoyant, then they could already foresee that Paul was going to try to bring an end to spice production in the universe. If They knew this ahead of time, (which they obviously did because the first scene of David. Lynch's Dune opens with the Guild navigators. Speaking to the emperor about wanting Paul to be killed), then why did they even allow House Atreides safe passage to Arrakis on the highliners to begin with? This just seems like a huge hole in the story?
It's interesting their transformation is somehow related to Leto II, Villeneuve stays away from this aspect of Dune, perhaps too weird for the normies
The worst punishment someone could be subject to. Stuck doing a boring job, no freedom of movement and almost never dying
i allways asumed that navigators were a skilled group mutated over many generations to become a sub species of humans rather than individual humans being turned into navigators.
do the books even indicate if navigatore are 1. individual humans trained & mutated 2. born as a navigator subspecies & trained as a steersman 3. individually made in a lab for the purpose of being a steersman
I'm not going to lie, I'm going to break the cardinal rule and comment before watching because the title question has an obvious answer to me -
_Because I heard that the hours were great._
I'll show myself out now but not before thanking you in advance for what I am certain from experience will be another fantastic episode. Your videos rock!
"All-you-can-eat Spice Bar!"
@@blondegirlsezthis8798 Hahaha!
Free dental. And the girls.
One thing that is often overlooked, but only touched on by Herbert in the later books is the plasticity of human culture over different eras. It is quite likely that throughout the Guild's over 30,000 year history from the end of the Jihad to the end of the Scattering, the nature of the process by which humans are selected and converted to Navigators greatly changed over time. Perhaps at some point, a pseudo-nobility was raised from birth to expect nothing but apotheosis as a Navigator (as hinted at by the lineage of "Edrics"). At another, maybe slaves were used, forced into the conversion and the resultant enlightened and practically worshipped being treated as a totally different individual from the human they were before by Guild agents. Perhaps at yet another time, only clones/Gholas of ideal humans were used. Maybe there even exists a time when Navigators were made from humans kept comatose from birth, so that they would only have the 'pure' experience of being Navigators.
It's shown that once Navigators undergo the transformation, most of them are unconcerned with corporeal affairs, and they are able to communicate in...if not a gestalt, at least in a manner much closer to one than anything ordinary humans are capable of. So once Navigators transform, they probably retain a consistent 'culture' among themselves. But that separation from corporeal affairs means that the Guild itself is probably not so static and has doubtless gone through many iterations of it's practices.
Even the 10,000 years between the Atreides empire and the Jihad is a vast period of time. Almost innumerable civilizations, some which we may even be forever unaware of, flourished in the same amount of time in our history. Such vast periods of time means there can be countless "truths" of the organizations that survived over time. The only thing we can assume to be totally consistent is that the Guild depends on the Navigators, and hence they are dependent on the Spice. This cardinal truth and iron shackle regarding the Guild is not made out to be a huge message in the Dune series, but it's certainly used as part of Herbert's warning that Humans should not be overly reliant on things other than themselves.
Regarding their ability to communicate as a "gestalt" entity, remember. They've basically given up the trappings of human communication, which is based on local culture and so on. I have to imagine it as a "language" and perception based solely on mathematics. And math is math, it's universal.
8:17 is by far the best rendering of my mind's image of a Guild Steersman.
Denis Villeneuve also nailed the look of the future Steersman at 4:40, with the veil of orange spice gas allowing vague but tantalising glimpse of a face hat suggests the beginnings of the mutation that a human undergoes in their transformation to Steersman.
I think it's important to remember just how honoured an organisation the Guild is in the universe, and how it is depicted as being so much more than simply the Navigators and the services that they provide. The Guild is also depicted as being the universe's bankers, mathematicians and universities.
Thus, being selected for a career in the Guild would be seen as highly desirable to anyone in society. Further selection for training as a Steersman would mark one out as being an elite within the already elite ranks of the Guild.
I concur with the video - once one has a glimpse of the universe through the eyes of the Navigator, the corporeal concerns of a "regular" human completely vanish in the quest for the prescient insight available to the Steersman.
I imagine it as complete and ecstatic union with the universe, which in learning to Navigate to and through, the Guildsman attains the almost god-like status of Steersman by attaining not only a union with, but a mastery over time and space itself.
This would be an experience so profound that all other experience pales into insignificance, and that death itself is preferable to living with the failure of falling short of attaining let alone mastering.
It would be the ultimate high and the ultimate addiction and one that only very of untold trillions of people would have the privilege of experiencing.
Become a guild member then take your ship with say the emperor’s family or say the bene gessirt into a sun while laughing maniacally lol
I always assumed it wasn't a choice. That individuals that were shown to have an aptitude were chosen to become navigators. Once addicted to the spice they were controllable only through the spice and yet were simultaneously revered and used. Humanity surely wouldn't just replace AI with navigators, they had to be controllable.
Great content and speaking voice, glad to have found this channel.
Ok, very well delivered.
BUT, I wonder, how did the Guild ever found out,
in the first place, how to use the Spice, to trip around in the Universe?
The more I think about it, the evolution of people into guild navigators is more of a regressive than progressive metamorphosis.
Akin to the lifecycle of the sand worm. There is a clear parallel between the two.
I mean, any trade must yeild a required or acceptable outcome or said trade wouldn't finalize. So to "See the universe in a grain of sand" would be dope as hell, and that way of "seeing" would definitely be a trade worth taking.
"Okay, Jeff, why do you even started to smoke weed, if you knew it would cost you your flying licence?"
"YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, IT HELPED ME DODGE THE BIRDS!"
It was never totally clear to me why the Fremen don't mutate into fish people? Since they spend their whole lives surrounded by spice at the source?
Probably not nearly as concentrated and those navigators live in highly concentrated gas chambers. That's probably a major notable difference.
Guild steersman: Worship me, I am the irreplaceable taxi service of the universe!
Machine of Ix: Did someone call an Uber?
Norma Cenva, I do wish you would have mentioned her name and her contributions to the Dune universe. Her story is one of the most interesting besides the god emperor himself.
Much like what happened to Paul himself, the navigator becomes a prisoner of his vision. It could well start as a quest for immortality or power, but once ensnared they became servants to their visions.
I expect Navigators are Born, not trained. The spacing guild probably has a heirarchy of crew functions. The Navigators or steersmen are just at the top of it. They start as cargo crewmen and as they show talents they are promoted. I expect at some point they run everyone in the crew through tests and tose with the necessary math and intuitive scores are put in positions to start learning the basics of the craft. Given the life extension properties of spice, I expect the apprenticeship is a long and arduos one where there are probaly Tlelaxu enhancement techniques and maybe even some forbidden secrets involved. the doasages of spice increase, the addiction deepens, so at some point I expect there is a final decision. Do you commit to being a monster in the service of humanity with a guild highliner as a virtual body, or remain a necessary go between with the guild and the groundling with enough knowledge to make descisions akin to Dukes of the Laandsarard?
...Because for the holiday they go everywhere they want in the universe for free!
Great presentation and beaitiful artwork.
There was a character in the dune prequels (the house trilogy), one of a pair of twins, from Ix that took the 'test' to see if they could become a Guild Navigator. Not a guild.member at all honestly, but still became a Navigator
I’ve literally never asked myself this question. To me it’s obvious. Do you want to live in a perilous galactic foundation as a normal human being or would it truly be unimaginable if someone decided if they would rather be high on drugs that’s actually expanding their life and making their brain sharper.
Great video, thanks!
Leto The II did the same thing by sacrificing his human form for a more abnormal one so that his presence and life could be extended to guide humanity on the Golden Path, The guild navigators had a limited view of the way humanity should go.
Like real-life, if someone wants to excel or be their absolute best, sacrifices must be made to make room. We can only fit so much on our plates, there are only so many hours in the day and as much as we hate it, sleep has to fit in someplace :D
Love your Dune content and how you dive into the lore. Thank you!
Sign me right up. I care nothing for the physical world. To be one with the very fabrics of space, time, life, death, and cosmic omnipotence? All it costs me is my stupid body? Yeah! I'd be first in line.
The new dune really missed out on showing off a navigator scene just like in the lynch movies..really fascinating and worldbuilding scene would have been especially with the superb atmosphere denis villeneuve creates in all his movies