Alot of these larger game shot with the 45/70 were shot with the Hornady 325 gr flex tip. The we're designed for whitetail deer. The open up quick. Not the best choice for larger game. Its not just the weight, but also the construction.
My group goes by "if it's brown, it's down". We don't shoot anything brown, but use it to say that we aren't head hunting when we go out for deer. We are on agricultural land and the farmers want deer shot, not passing for only 1 big buck. If we get a big one, great, but that isn't our main objective.
It's really nice to hear how "Trophy hunting" actually works from a non-bias side. Rather than what the media depicts. Very informative, thanks again Ron.
In Arkansas in overgrown clear-cuts with 4 foot pine tress growing up and thick hardwoods I like to use 30 calibers and a bullet that expands but doesn't fall apart and exits the animal so you have a blood trail that's easy to follow
My friend Terry scolded me for passing up a buck. It had 3 on this side, but I couldn't see the other. He said, "They're a lot easier to count when they're lying on the ground!"
Fun video as usual. The part about killing potential of cartridges was well put and also reminds me of a video that desert dog outdoors did on that. You both seem to have some similar beliefs
I have seen two deer so far shot in the gut and fall over dead. First one I was guiding a kid shooting a 243 and it was hit square in the middle and it fell over dead. Cleaning it I couldn’t find where a fragment hit something vital but it must have! Still makes me scratch my head.
I grew up in the sticks of SW Louisiana I've heard every one of those sayings and then a bunch more I probably can't say on UA-cam but maybe it's the redneck in me none of them bother me any... LOL Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
I thought that the "I smoked him" referred to using black powder rifle to harvest game, same with hammered him or dropped the hammer on him referring to an external hammer rifle ie win94, I could be totally wrong though heh
Hunted with a friend that was using a 35 whelen using a heavy cartridge. A deer came across us and he got the drop off because of the angle of safe sight. When his bullet hit I watched in amazement that when his bullet hit the one side of the deer the opposite side bulged out at least 6 inches or more before it dropped in its tracks. I never saw anything move that much venison on an opposite side ever. You could see the whole side bulge. It was hit at maybe 40 yds. - I told my friend the deer committed suicide as we would never seen it if it wasn’t brunch time. We were both headed in for a quick meal and to plan out the afternoon drives. Needless to say he ended up driving for the rest of us.
I use a .35 Whelen for elk. It will certainly do the job on a deer but I kind of think it's overkill. White tail deer do have a tenacity for life though.
I suspect that what you saw was largely due to the large "temporary cavity" of the bullet. The 35 Whelen's combination of relatively large diameter bullet traveling at well over 2000 fps pushes aside a lot of tissue. It can briefly open up a volleyball-sized cavity inside the animal. Not only does that temporary cavity damage tissue, but the pulse of its opening can stun the animal briefly, often long enough for it to die before getting up.
GAME bullet constructions perform terminally optimal out of various velocity ranges, such as, a cup ‘n draw performs best at low to standard velocities 1,500-2,500 fps; solid copper cores perform best at higher velocities 2,300-3,500+ fps; bonded and partitioned cores are exceptional at any velocity, but more superior for higher velocities. When I hand-load for Roosevelt Elk in Western Oregon, I load my 7 SAUM (a mild magnum) for both close range and long range, and carry them together using the optimum performance scale above, I will load Hornady ELD-X’s for 300-600 yard ranges, and Nosler bonded core for shorter 50-300 yard ranges. This way, I have a choice for controlled expansion at close range and open expansion at long range.
Although some solids, especially many of the Barnes bullets require a fairly high velocity to open up, there are some other monolithic designs that work well to 1500 fps or so. The Cavity Back bullets that are designed for 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel and 300 Blackout do well at the lower velocities. Another interesting thing that has been recently discovered is that a fast twist rate seems to cause monolithic bullets to open up sooner and farther.
After 50 years of deer hunting with 12 gage slugs to 80 grain 243s I can say that chest shots mean down deer on the spot to no more than 50 yard tracks. By the way several of the 50 yard runs were on bucks with hearts with holes in them. Knowing where to hit them is much more important then then using heavy and slow vs fast and light.
It seems that a lot of new hunters think that it is normal for an animal to always drop in its tracks and not move a muscle after being shot. To be honest, I am a little surprised that it happens as often as it does.
@@jfess1911 i have gotten to the point that I consider a 50 or so yard track an enjoyable part of the hunt. Once a new hunter spends 1/2 a night tracking a blood trail with a flash light they'll inderstand the Animal doesn't just drop with a good shot. There few better teachers than "Old Man Experience"
My favorite cliché is, "I anchored him to the deck". I dropped cleanly with one shot deer, twice this past season. I was so giddy after shooting the first one that I am guilty of using that stupid cliché. I feel so ashamed of myself now. Thanks, Ron.
I think we all have used them once. The bad taste after they come out of our mouths usually prevents a second occurrence and puts a halt to any others.
Hey Ron @23:50ish you talk about the velocity difference between 7rm and 7prc. I keep hearing you mention that the 7prc isn't much of any faster than the 7rm. Well data I've seen for 160-168 class bullets from a 7rm is about 2875-2950fps, while the 7prc seems to be running the 175eldx at 3000fps and the 180eldm at 2950. So I think you're missing that the relatively similar velocities are for bullets as far as 20gr apart from each other. So, really the 7PRC is a more powerful cartridge and it does only have about 5% more powder, but it still has 10-15% more energy downrange or more from the exceptionally long and really high bc bullets
Maybe you can get a little more out of the 7rm with a 160 or 162 than that, but the point is that to get the 170-180 class bullets with high bc's loaded into the 7rm you eat into the powder capacity and the velocities do start to fall off and that is where the 7prc takes over and really shines
All my fellow hunters should practice the "Letzter Bissen-the last bite", show respect to our noble quarry. The last bite, a sprig of pine (eternal life) in the mouth and a prayer to their kind to ensure their survival. This is a requirement in our deer camp.
When I worked in a sporting goods store I was having a discussion with a customer about my preference between 150gr, 165gr and 180gr bullets in 30/06. My preference has always been to favor heavier for caliber for better penetration and the customer was explaining why he preferred light and fast for the shock. Just then an older gentleman came up to put in his 2 cents. The following is a quote from what he said and I continue to us to this day when asked, "light and fast kill dramatically but heavy and slow kill consistently."
"We persevered through adversity". Ahh... Hunting's not an experience like the great depression, war, trail of tears, batan death march, etc. "I'm hunting on my good buddies property, [insert guiding operation's name] "I'm running....[insert gear item] I'm getting older and contrary but I much prefer the quote on my Coors banquet cap - "Work quietly and let success speak up" "
Woodland! Three good examples! I love the guys who persevered and "hunted hard" for two whole days from their ground blind situated ten steps from the Ranger in which the guide drove them to the bait site. Fortunately they were running the right gear!
The young deer in crowded condition are the ones getting C.W.D. The new copper bullets with cutting edges make bigger holes . I shot a full grown caribou in the ass & it fell .
I have been interested in the mass and velocity of bullets for a long time. I used to be very into velocity because as we all know if you double the weight of the bullet you double the energy but if you double the velocity of the bullet you quadruple the energy so for years I sought to drive bullets as fast as possible. After some time I came to understand some of the laws of physics and learned the faster a bullet goes the faster it slows down and mass helps the bullet retain velocity and thus energy. Through experience I have learned high velocity is great at some things but if you want to eat the animal there is a sweet spot involving velocity and mass that won't cause so much capillary damage to the flesh of the animal. I agree with GUNBLUE 490 that a muzzle velocity of 2700 to 2900 fps and a bullet with a good sectional density is ideal for hunting purposes. For my hunting the BC of the bullet is of little importance even though a high sectional density usually denotes a high BC. I have done my own personal studies on this and have much much more I can learn and I'm running out of time. I don't like the idea of taking very long shots with light bullets for this reason.
Well analyzed, Russell, but I think you're shortchanging the value of B.C. It's not just to minimize wind deflection and drop, but to maximize retained energy. By design it increased SD as well. So you get the best of all worlds. The other thing you may be overlooking is what bullet construction/materials contribute to penetration. Higher SD certainly contributes to maintaining momentum and penetration, but controlled expansion characteristics do, too, often more than SD. Since 1991 I've noticed that a lighter weight Barnes X, TSX, TTSX, etc. all copper hollow point nearly always out penetrates traditional lead core bullets of significantly greater mass and SD. Why? Because they retain 90 to 100% of their mass while penetrating. Some controlled expansion premium bullets such as Swift A-Frame equal or nearly match this penetration potential, but even a bonded/partitioned design like that loses some mass as the lead erodes against hide, muscle, and bone. Just more things to consider.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast well, that erosion certainly qualifies as shrapnel as it leaves bits and pieces in the lungs. Perhaps not as explosive as others though. Great show sir!
You didn't comment about the performance of the 7mm prc or the 280 AI in a 20 inch barrel. It seems to me that this is would be detrimental to the performance of the cartridges, just so you can put a suppressor on it without turning it into a "pool cue".
An important reason that virtually "factory" cartridges do not have 40° shoulders is that they are hard to manufacture. The sharper angle creates a lot more scrap from case buckling when run through a normal machine. The primary way to reduce scrap is to form the shoulder in two or three steps and anneal in between those steps. This dramatically increases machine time and cost. The overall geometry of the 280 AI allows it to feed better than many other AI cartridges, especially shorter-fatter ones. The "step" formed by the 40° shoulder is relatively small compared to overall cartridge length. That "step" becomes a larger problem for feeding with something like a 22-250AI or one of the short magnums.
I like a lighter bullet with good penetration. Not much good comes from over 3000 fps. My arrows 466 grain go through deer. I have a shorter barrel so can shoot lighter bullets. A longer barrel shoots heavier bullets better. Thats my thoughts.
Since youtube wont allow posting of links. I'll cut n paste the point "Mass is a fundamental measurement of how much matter an object contains. Weight is a measurement of the gravitational force on an object. It not only depends on the object's mass, but also on its location. Therefore, weight is actually a measure of force."
Is it true the skin on African animals is normally thicker? I know elephant, rino etc are for sure. That seems like it would be a good reason in itself for a heavier, tougher bullet. The newer solid copper Barnes type may work well in a “smaller” caliber?
IJ've not found hides/skins of African game thicker than similar-sized North American. It's possible some of the desert antelopes are tougher/more resilient than some N.A. due to evolving for so long under predatory pressure from lions, wild dogs, leopards, caracals, crocs, cheetahs, etc. Desert adapted species like oryx seem tougher, too. But I've noticed no tough hides slowing or stopping bullets, and I've tried many cartridges/bullets in various calibers down to 243 Win. and 223 Rem.
Ron, the old argument is basically velocity vs mass, like you say, but I think there's a new factor that few ppl are talking about. Rotational velocity. I'm not a physicist, but it's hard to argue with ppl killing African cape buffalo with relatively very slow 338 bullets. Subsonic even. The 8.6blk doesn't have impressive mass(relatively), doesn't have any speed, but it does have exceptional rotational velocity and it seems to be doing the job.
The rotational velocity has mostly to do with a bullet opening up quickly to effectively act like a larger diameter bullet. I have seen it claimed that this is especially noticeable with monolithic bullets.
Simple answer... it's both. If you don't have enough mass, you won't do enough damage.... if you don't have enough energy, you won't do enough damage. Big bullet going too slow has diminishing returns on impact energy and may run out of energy and not penetrate and expand properly. On the other hand, too fast of a bullet with too light of construction, and it may expand explosively and not penetrate into vitals. You want to make sure impact velocities are above 1600fps, but ideally above 1800fps whenever possible. Softer bullets allow for lower velocity impacts, but they also get worse penetration because the jackets either don't exist or don't hold up. A fairly heavy, fast moving bullet performs better than slow moving very heavy, or a very fast moving very light bullet. That said, a hard controlled expansion bullet like a partition, electro bonded thick jacket, or a solid copper will usually be the best. Something with a sectional density in the .280-.320 range going 2800-3200fps usually does best in regular rifles for large game like moose and bears.
The mechanism for damage changes, depending upon the diameter and speed of the bullet traveling through the animal. Bullets in the 1600fps range tend to mainly damage tissue very close to the bullet track, making shot placement more critical. At some point, the combination of "effective bullet diameter" (which depends on bullet deformation) and velocity opens up a large enough temporary cavity that tissue can be stretched and torn at a somewhat larger distance from the bullet track. Things get messier if fragments from the bullet or shattered bone slice that tissue when it is stretched. I have seen rules of thumb like 27cal and 2200fps, but it probably varies on a lot of things including the size and build of an animal. The main historical reference is from the introduction of the 270 Winchester in the 1920's. Apparently, that is when it became common to see an animal "drop in its tracks". Apparently the heavy bullets used in the 30-06 of the time (1920's) were not usually going fast enough to reliably create this effect.
Smoked them, referring to muzzleloaders and the fog of war not knowing if you hit it or not but fealing confident in the shot. And far as smack down refers to the sound of the bullet hitting the animal noting a hit. And you forgot if the trigger is gold the doe will fold. Lol
I have a challenging question. I am GOING to hunt deer with my 5.56 within reasonable distance, +/-100 yds. My barrel is 20" with a 1:7 twist. Would using a monolithic bullet like a Barnes Vor-TX make the most sense, so as to get the most penetration out of the 5.56 cartridge? If so does it make more sense to go with a bigger 70 grain bullet since I have the barrel handle it? Or is it still better to follow conventional mono bullet wisdom and go with a smaller "light for caliber" bullet to maximize velocity, even though its a 5.56? What would offer the best terminal performance out my rifle? Thanks!
I haven't shot enough deer with various 22s to solidify an opinion, but it seems with such a small diameter projectile the advantage lies in velocity and major bullet expansion/disruption rather than classic controlled expansion for deep penetration. I've used fairly explosive 55-gr. Nosler flat-base, 60-gr. Partitions, 75-gr. A-Max, and 75-gr. Swift Scirocco. They all worked well and terminated the deer, but the more frangible ones placed behind the shoulder kill more quickly thanks to the "explosive" effect of shrapnel in a concentrated area in the heart/lungs. The advantage in the controlled expansion bullets is penetrating to the vitals should you hit major bone/muscle mass that might short-stop a more frangible bullet.
@@dr.froghopper6711 That was also part of my equation when considering a monolithic. If I'm hunting in the really thick stuff, the chances of losing a deer are higher without adequate blood trail. I figure a monolithic bullet would cater well towards a high shoulder shot, to knock out the brachial plexus nerve bundle and drop it on the spot. I've seen it done countless times with bow and arrow. I figure solid copper shank at over 1000 ft/lbs would accomplish the same feat, maybe. The Hammer Hunter bullet seems like it would offer the best of both worlds since it sheds its petals.
My favorite cliché is “all of my tracking was vertical“. The one I don’t care for, is “I put his dick in the dirt“. Thank you for all your videos I always look forward to them.
another comment...on bullet mass..this is JMHO..but i can't help but look at it like this...i compare it to boxing gloves... being hit by any boxer hurts and the weight of the gloves makes a difference....would you rather get hit by a boxer wearing 12 oz. gloves or the same boxer hitting you with 16 oz. gloves????..JMHO but seems to me the harder the "thump" the greater the knockdown.....i will say i think bullet weight should be matched to the game being hunted....
Ron, my son put a shot a deer a few years back. He shot the deer using the light recoil Hornady factory round 30-06, 125 grn @ 2700 fps. We were in a ground blind. There were three does walking in a line at about 60 yards. When they stopped, from my vantage point he didn't have a shot on any of them because all the vitals appeared to be behind trees. I told him to wait and see if one would move to present a shot. He told me that he could see the vitals on the back doe. I asked if he was sure. He told me he was. I figured at his angle he might be able to see something I couldn't. I told him to go ahead and take the shot if he had a good one. He shot and the doe dropped like a sack of taters. When we walked to the deer, he had shot it in the crease of the stomach and the ham, about 2-3 inches low of the back strap. There wasn't much blood or internal bleeding. I have no idea what he hit, but it put the doe down quickly. I did get on to him about making sure to have a good shot and myself for not assuring he had the shot he thought he had. But, I still am amazed that he shot the deer right in front of the hams and the deer fell without taking a step.
That does seem odd. I recall making a similar shot (not on purpose) as a teen. Might be some kind of nerve bundle in that area. Not a recommended shot placement, but glad it worked!
Every time Ron brings up Africa I find people miss the plot that the humanitarian atrocities perpetrated by continuous colonial rule is the real issue. Not wildlife conservation through professional outfits.
ok Ron i have a question for you that i've been pondering.....in shotgun shells most are in Ga. and not cal... ok taking that..the .410 is not a Ga. but a cal... with that.... if you look at ..say the judge.. that is made to shoot 410 shotshell and also 45 long colt... this brings my question...WHY ISN'T A 41 CAL BULLET USED HERE.[FOR EXAMPLE 41 MAG.] INSTEAD OF THE 45 COLT????? to me this would be a better fit and more to measurment than the .45 cal..and i understand the mag. problem so we'll say for the sake of argument they were loaded to "41 spec." loads...
Ron I'm amused with " "assaults" on one of my favorite hunting cartridges in my browning 86.just FYI had to shoot 300 somthing lb Varmit.300 winchester bulletsorta brad ..side.little hole near side , everything inside of 16 inch circle went out opposite side.i guessed thats confidence entering swamp alder thicket for wounded dangerous game? Maybe? 🦬🐎 politics a side. Yes it was a hollow point
Ditto on the cutesy sayings. May be getting old myself, but I prefer less bragging and more truth. I also prefer single shot rifles. If you can't kill it with one shot, you don't need to be hunting. I have, however, left way too many holes in the sky when shooting at ducks. Shame!
Especially on the tv “hunting” shows. The vast majority of the time they make a less than ideal shot and then proclaim “I smoked em”. It makes me think that they smoked something, but it wasn’t what they were shooting at.
I never liked the heart shot and no one should use it on anything that has the potential to hurt you back. I want to break 1 shoulder at least and both would be better, that takes a long for caliber bullet. As of yet I have not found a .224 bullet that is yet able to do so. Even if not killed on the spot there is no animal that can travel as fast and as far on 3 legs as on 4. I will always shoot a firearm able to shoot a bullet capable of going true both shoulder bones of any animal I hunt. As for the 45/70 style calibers heavy bullets with a large flat tip will work better than spire points and I have found them more effective than round nose bullets.
From what I have seen, a wide flat tip (65% or so diameter) helps a larger diameter, relatively slow bullet tear tissue. The larger flat tips also tend to travel in a straighter line.
I think you've hit on it, James. It's a matter of showing respect to Nature, the animals we hunt, our ancient traditions as hunters, and ourselves as responsible participants in Nature's pageantry. I don't think we have to be reverential about it all the tim and certainly not pompous/morally superior, but a sincere appreciation overall looks a lot better than locker-room jocularity and joking.
WHACK EM STACK EM, was the stupidest thing I ever heard people say. Ted Nugent has done alot of good for hunting and shooting but he used to say that phrase all the time. I thought, HOW DISRESPECTFUL! I'm sure he didn't see it that way. Oh well, TO EACH THEIR OWN.
We use “if it’s brown, it’s down” to distinguish between someone looking for bucks vs someone who will fill his freezer with does as well.
Alot of these larger game shot with the 45/70 were shot with the Hornady 325 gr flex tip. The we're designed for whitetail deer. The open up quick. Not the best choice for larger game. Its not just the weight, but also the construction.
Lol
totally agree, that's why I use 405gr hardcast handloads in my 45-70
My group goes by "if it's brown, it's down". We don't shoot anything brown, but use it to say that we aren't head hunting when we go out for deer. We are on agricultural land and the farmers want deer shot, not passing for only 1 big buck. If we get a big one, great, but that isn't our main objective.
Not enough DOE PATROL. HUNTING IS CONSERVATION.
I can tell this one will be good 👍. Ron always is informative and most importantly he is always interesting. Thanks Ron
Yes
Thanks Nathaniel
It's really nice to hear how "Trophy hunting" actually works from a non-bias side. Rather than what the media depicts. Very informative, thanks again Ron.
In Arkansas in overgrown clear-cuts with 4 foot pine tress growing up and thick hardwoods I like to use 30 calibers and a bullet that expands but doesn't fall apart and exits the animal so you have a blood trail that's easy to follow
My friend Terry scolded me for passing up a buck. It had 3 on this side, but I couldn't see the other. He said, "They're a lot easier to count when they're lying on the ground!"
My favorite was “You can’t see me, I is a tree!” from military camo days!
Fun video as usual. The part about killing potential of cartridges was well put and also reminds me of a video that desert dog outdoors did on that. You both seem to have some similar beliefs
Another advantage of the 280 AI, more magazine capacity over the fatter cartridges.
The hammer as in hammer of a gun Ron. Dropping the hammer on a deer.
I have seen two deer so far shot in the gut and fall over dead. First one I was guiding a kid shooting a 243 and it was hit square in the middle and it fell over dead. Cleaning it I couldn’t find where a fragment hit something vital but it must have! Still makes me scratch my head.
I grew up in the sticks of SW Louisiana I've heard every one of those sayings and then a bunch more I probably can't say on UA-cam but maybe it's the redneck in me none of them bother me any... LOL Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
I thought that the "I smoked him" referred to using black powder rifle to harvest game, same with hammered him or dropped the hammer on him referring to an external hammer rifle ie win94, I could be totally wrong though heh
Just had to bring that buck home so he could hang around for a few days!! He don't talk much but tells a heck of a hunting story!
I do not believe in walking on eggshells around the anti hunters. They’re going to hate either way, let’s not change who we are.
Hunted with a friend that was using a 35 whelen using a heavy cartridge. A deer came across us and he got the drop off because of the angle of safe sight. When his bullet hit I watched in amazement that when his bullet hit the one side of the deer the opposite side bulged out at least 6 inches or more before it dropped in its tracks. I never saw anything move that much venison on an opposite side ever. You could see the whole side bulge. It was hit at maybe 40 yds. - I told my friend the deer committed suicide as we would never seen it if it wasn’t brunch time. We were both headed in for a quick meal and to plan out the afternoon drives. Needless to say he ended up driving for the rest of us.
I use a .35 Whelen for elk. It will certainly do the job on a deer but I kind of think it's overkill. White tail deer do have a tenacity for life though.
I suspect that what you saw was largely due to the large "temporary cavity" of the bullet. The 35 Whelen's combination of relatively large diameter bullet traveling at well over 2000 fps pushes aside a lot of tissue. It can briefly open up a volleyball-sized cavity inside the animal. Not only does that temporary cavity damage tissue, but the pulse of its opening can stun the animal briefly, often long enough for it to die before getting up.
GAME bullet constructions perform terminally optimal out of various velocity ranges, such as, a cup ‘n draw performs best at low to standard velocities 1,500-2,500 fps; solid copper cores perform best at higher velocities 2,300-3,500+ fps; bonded and partitioned cores are exceptional at any velocity, but more superior for higher velocities.
When I hand-load for Roosevelt Elk in Western Oregon, I load my 7 SAUM (a mild magnum) for both close range and long range, and carry them together using the optimum performance scale above, I will load Hornady ELD-X’s for 300-600 yard ranges, and Nosler bonded core for shorter 50-300 yard ranges. This way, I have a choice for controlled expansion at close range and open expansion at long range.
Although some solids, especially many of the Barnes bullets require a fairly high velocity to open up, there are some other monolithic designs that work well to 1500 fps or so. The Cavity Back bullets that are designed for 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel and 300 Blackout do well at the lower velocities. Another interesting thing that has been recently discovered is that a fast twist rate seems to cause monolithic bullets to open up sooner and farther.
Great show love all the facts on so many topics
After 50 years of deer hunting with 12 gage slugs to 80 grain 243s I can say that chest shots mean down deer on the spot to no more than 50 yard tracks. By the way several of the 50 yard runs were on bucks with hearts with holes in them. Knowing where to hit them is much more important then then using heavy and slow vs fast and light.
It seems that a lot of new hunters think that it is normal for an animal to always drop in its tracks and not move a muscle after being shot. To be honest, I am a little surprised that it happens as often as it does.
@@jfess1911 i have gotten to the point that I consider a 50 or so yard track an enjoyable part of the hunt. Once a new hunter spends 1/2 a night tracking a blood trail with a flash light they'll inderstand the Animal doesn't just drop with a good shot. There few better teachers than "Old Man Experience"
I think a viewer submitted story per q&a would be a nice addition to the format.
My favorite cliché is, "I anchored him to the deck". I dropped cleanly with one shot deer, twice this past season. I was so giddy after shooting the first one that I am guilty of using that stupid cliché. I feel so ashamed of myself now. Thanks, Ron.
I think we all have used them once. The bad taste after they come out of our mouths usually prevents a second occurrence and puts a halt to any others.
Hey Ron @23:50ish you talk about the velocity difference between 7rm and 7prc. I keep hearing you mention that the 7prc isn't much of any faster than the 7rm. Well data I've seen for 160-168 class bullets from a 7rm is about 2875-2950fps, while the 7prc seems to be running the 175eldx at 3000fps and the 180eldm at 2950. So I think you're missing that the relatively similar velocities are for bullets as far as 20gr apart from each other. So, really the 7PRC is a more powerful cartridge and it does only have about 5% more powder, but it still has 10-15% more energy downrange or more from the exceptionally long and really high bc bullets
P.S. I love your videos and what you do and how you present information and how transparent you are!
Maybe you can get a little more out of the 7rm with a 160 or 162 than that, but the point is that to get the 170-180 class bullets with high bc's loaded into the 7rm you eat into the powder capacity and the velocities do start to fall off and that is where the 7prc takes over and really shines
I pulled numbers from sources listed as being out of 24" barrels for both cartridges
You should do one on jargon/acronyms.
All my fellow hunters should practice the "Letzter Bissen-the last bite", show respect to our noble quarry. The last bite, a sprig of pine (eternal life) in the mouth and a prayer to their kind to ensure their survival. This is a requirement in our deer camp.
I heard in the making from Remington I believe of a new round called the 360 buckhammer can we get a good insight on it or speculation
When I worked in a sporting goods store I was having a discussion with a customer about my preference between 150gr, 165gr and 180gr bullets in 30/06. My preference has always been to favor heavier for caliber for better penetration and the customer was explaining why he preferred light and fast for the shock. Just then an older gentleman came up to put in his 2 cents. The following is a quote from what he said and I continue to us to this day when asked, "light and fast kill dramatically but heavy and slow kill consistently."
"We persevered through adversity". Ahh... Hunting's not an experience like the great depression, war, trail of tears, batan death march, etc.
"I'm hunting on my good buddies property, [insert guiding operation's name]
"I'm running....[insert gear item]
I'm getting older and contrary but I much prefer the quote on my Coors banquet cap -
"Work quietly and let success speak up"
"
Woodland! Three good examples! I love the guys who persevered and "hunted hard" for two whole days from their ground blind situated ten steps from the Ranger in which the guide drove them to the bait site. Fortunately they were running the right gear!
The young deer in crowded condition are the ones getting C.W.D. The new copper bullets with cutting edges make bigger holes . I shot a full grown caribou in the ass & it fell .
I agree that they get overused, but I do enjoy stoking up snowflakes.😂
I have been interested in the mass and velocity of bullets for a long time. I used to be very into velocity because as we all know if you double the weight of the bullet you double the energy but if you double the velocity of the bullet you quadruple the energy so for years I sought to drive bullets as fast as possible. After some time I came to understand some of the laws of physics and learned the faster a bullet goes the faster it slows down and mass helps the bullet retain velocity and thus energy. Through experience I have learned high velocity is great at some things but if you want to eat the animal there is a sweet spot involving velocity and mass that won't cause so much capillary damage to the flesh of the animal. I agree with GUNBLUE 490 that a muzzle velocity of 2700 to 2900 fps and a bullet with a good sectional density is ideal for hunting purposes. For my hunting the BC of the bullet is of little importance even though a high sectional density usually denotes a high BC. I have done my own personal studies on this and have much much more I can learn and I'm running out of time. I don't like the idea of taking very long shots with light bullets for this reason.
Well analyzed, Russell, but I think you're shortchanging the value of B.C. It's not just to minimize wind deflection and drop, but to maximize retained energy. By design it increased SD as well. So you get the best of all worlds. The other thing you may be overlooking is what bullet construction/materials contribute to penetration. Higher SD certainly contributes to maintaining momentum and penetration, but controlled expansion characteristics do, too, often more than SD. Since 1991 I've noticed that a lighter weight Barnes X, TSX, TTSX, etc. all copper hollow point nearly always out penetrates traditional lead core bullets of significantly greater mass and SD. Why? Because they retain 90 to 100% of their mass while penetrating. Some controlled expansion premium bullets such as Swift A-Frame equal or nearly match this penetration potential, but even a bonded/partitioned design like that loses some mass as the lead erodes against hide, muscle, and bone. Just more things to consider.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast well, that erosion certainly qualifies as shrapnel as it leaves bits and pieces in the lungs. Perhaps not as explosive as others though. Great show sir!
The "Hog Hammer" is a marketing name used with great effect on a very affective bullet.
What about how in every hunting story "I hit him perfectly, double lung"
You didn't comment about the performance of the 7mm prc or the 280 AI in a 20 inch barrel. It seems to me that this is would be detrimental to the performance of the cartridges, just so you can put a suppressor on it without turning it into a "pool cue".
guilty of saying "smoked em" every now and again. "brown its down" seems to be all my neighbors goal when deer hunting
“Sent him to Freezer University”
An important reason that virtually "factory" cartridges do not have 40° shoulders is that they are hard to manufacture. The sharper angle creates a lot more scrap from case buckling when run through a normal machine. The primary way to reduce scrap is to form the shoulder in two or three steps and anneal in between those steps. This dramatically increases machine time and cost.
The overall geometry of the 280 AI allows it to feed better than many other AI cartridges, especially shorter-fatter ones. The "step" formed by the 40° shoulder is relatively small compared to overall cartridge length. That "step" becomes a larger problem for feeding with something like a 22-250AI or one of the short magnums.
I made one up years ago its 'little rack let them go let them grow'
I like a lighter bullet with good penetration. Not much good comes from over 3000 fps. My arrows 466 grain go through deer. I have a shorter barrel so can shoot lighter bullets. A longer barrel shoots heavier bullets better. Thats my thoughts.
Since youtube wont allow posting of links. I'll cut n paste the point
"Mass is a fundamental measurement of how much matter an object contains. Weight is a measurement of the gravitational force on an object. It not only depends on the object's mass, but also on its location. Therefore, weight is actually a measure of force."
Is it true the skin on African animals is normally thicker? I know elephant, rino etc are for sure. That seems like it would be a good reason in itself for a heavier, tougher bullet. The newer solid copper Barnes type may work well in a “smaller” caliber?
IJ've not found hides/skins of African game thicker than similar-sized North American. It's possible some of the desert antelopes are tougher/more resilient than some N.A. due to evolving for so long under predatory pressure from lions, wild dogs, leopards, caracals, crocs, cheetahs, etc. Desert adapted species like oryx seem tougher, too. But I've noticed no tough hides slowing or stopping bullets, and I've tried many cartridges/bullets in various calibers down to 243 Win. and 223 Rem.
A new one I hear is "didn't go twenty"
Are we talking about whitetails
, in great numbers, damaging crops in the Southeast or Elk and Moose, with a balanced population, in the West?
Ron, the old argument is basically velocity vs mass, like you say, but I think there's a new factor that few ppl are talking about. Rotational velocity. I'm not a physicist, but it's hard to argue with ppl killing African cape buffalo with relatively very slow 338 bullets. Subsonic even. The 8.6blk doesn't have impressive mass(relatively), doesn't have any speed, but it does have exceptional rotational velocity and it seems to be doing the job.
The rotational velocity has mostly to do with a bullet opening up quickly to effectively act like a larger diameter bullet. I have seen it claimed that this is especially noticeable with monolithic bullets.
@@jfess1911 That might be it. It's definitely doing something.
"I smoked him" Was it hard to keep it lit?
DID YOU KNOW THAT SMOKING CURES HAM.
Trick is in trying to teach a pig to smoke....I'll let myself out now
brachial plexus high shoulder shot
Is that like awesome opossum??
If it crawls it falls.
Simple answer... it's both. If you don't have enough mass, you won't do enough damage.... if you don't have enough energy, you won't do enough damage. Big bullet going too slow has diminishing returns on impact energy and may run out of energy and not penetrate and expand properly. On the other hand, too fast of a bullet with too light of construction, and it may expand explosively and not penetrate into vitals. You want to make sure impact velocities are above 1600fps, but ideally above 1800fps whenever possible. Softer bullets allow for lower velocity impacts, but they also get worse penetration because the jackets either don't exist or don't hold up. A fairly heavy, fast moving bullet performs better than slow moving very heavy, or a very fast moving very light bullet. That said, a hard controlled expansion bullet like a partition, electro bonded thick jacket, or a solid copper will usually be the best. Something with a sectional density in the .280-.320 range going 2800-3200fps usually does best in regular rifles for large game like moose and bears.
The mechanism for damage changes, depending upon the diameter and speed of the bullet traveling through the animal. Bullets in the 1600fps range tend to mainly damage tissue very close to the bullet track, making shot placement more critical. At some point, the combination of "effective bullet diameter" (which depends on bullet deformation) and velocity opens up a large enough temporary cavity that tissue can be stretched and torn at a somewhat larger distance from the bullet track.
Things get messier if fragments from the bullet or shattered bone slice that tissue when it is stretched. I have seen rules of thumb like 27cal and 2200fps, but it probably varies on a lot of things including the size and build of an animal.
The main historical reference is from the introduction of the 270 Winchester in the 1920's. Apparently, that is when it became common to see an animal "drop in its tracks". Apparently the heavy bullets used in the 30-06 of the time (1920's) were not usually going fast enough to reliably create this effect.
How about LIGHTS OUT for a cliche. You're killing me!
If it's brown it's down Always meant. To me didn't have to worry about either sex
I like, I dropped him on the spot!
when hunting "pasture grizzlies" nothing but stink and mist,, or big white spark
Smoked them, referring to muzzleloaders and the fog of war not knowing if you hit it or not but fealing confident in the shot. And far as smack down refers to the sound of the bullet hitting the animal noting a hit. And you forgot if the trigger is gold the doe will fold. Lol
I dusted him😅!?!?
I have a challenging question. I am GOING to hunt deer with my 5.56 within reasonable distance, +/-100 yds. My barrel is 20" with a 1:7 twist. Would using a monolithic bullet like a Barnes Vor-TX make the most sense, so as to get the most penetration out of the 5.56 cartridge? If so does it make more sense to go with a bigger 70 grain bullet since I have the barrel handle it? Or is it still better to follow conventional mono bullet wisdom and go with a smaller "light for caliber" bullet to maximize velocity, even though its a 5.56? What would offer the best terminal performance out my rifle? Thanks!
I haven't shot enough deer with various 22s to solidify an opinion, but it seems with such a small diameter projectile the advantage lies in velocity and major bullet expansion/disruption rather than classic controlled expansion for deep penetration. I've used fairly explosive 55-gr. Nosler flat-base, 60-gr. Partitions, 75-gr. A-Max, and 75-gr. Swift Scirocco. They all worked well and terminated the deer, but the more frangible ones placed behind the shoulder kill more quickly thanks to the "explosive" effect of shrapnel in a concentrated area in the heart/lungs. The advantage in the controlled expansion bullets is penetrating to the vitals should you hit major bone/muscle mass that might short-stop a more frangible bullet.
I have similar questions. I’m thinking that poking a hole with a little blender blade that goes all the way through should give good blood trails.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast Thank you! All of that makes perfect sense, and is very helpful. Thank you again.
@@dr.froghopper6711 That was also part of my equation when considering a monolithic. If I'm hunting in the really thick stuff, the chances of losing a deer are higher without adequate blood trail. I figure a monolithic bullet would cater well towards a high shoulder shot, to knock out the brachial plexus nerve bundle and drop it on the spot. I've seen it done countless times with bow and arrow. I figure solid copper shank at over 1000 ft/lbs would accomplish the same feat, maybe. The Hammer Hunter bullet seems like it would offer the best of both worlds since it sheds its petals.
Farming is what humans must do when the forest and game arw gone. When the soil gives out they want you to eat bugs.
My favorite cliché is “all of my tracking was vertical“. The one I don’t care for, is “I put his dick in the dirt“. Thank you for all your videos I always look forward to them.
What about “ knock em a$$ over tin cups”?
another comment...on bullet mass..this is JMHO..but i can't help but look at it like this...i compare it to boxing gloves... being hit by any boxer hurts and the weight of the gloves makes a difference....would you rather get hit by a boxer wearing 12 oz. gloves or the same boxer hitting you with 16 oz. gloves????..JMHO but seems to me the harder the "thump" the greater the knockdown.....i will say i think bullet weight should be matched to the game being hunted....
C.W.D. should NOT be ignored . Watch on rumble - died suddenly movie .
Looked like I dropped him from an airplane. He went 3 ft. Straight down
Here's one for yus the buck stops here ,that's what my wife said lol that's not a hunting term or is it
Ron, my son put a shot a deer a few years back. He shot the deer using the light recoil Hornady factory round 30-06, 125 grn @ 2700 fps. We were in a ground blind. There were three does walking in a line at about 60 yards. When they stopped, from my vantage point he didn't have a shot on any of them because all the vitals appeared to be behind trees. I told him to wait and see if one would move to present a shot. He told me that he could see the vitals on the back doe. I asked if he was sure. He told me he was. I figured at his angle he might be able to see something I couldn't. I told him to go ahead and take the shot if he had a good one. He shot and the doe dropped like a sack of taters. When we walked to the deer, he had shot it in the crease of the stomach and the ham, about 2-3 inches low of the back strap. There wasn't much blood or internal bleeding. I have no idea what he hit, but it put the doe down quickly. I did get on to him about making sure to have a good shot and myself for not assuring he had the shot he thought he had. But, I still am amazed that he shot the deer right in front of the hams and the deer fell without taking a step.
That does seem odd. I recall making a similar shot (not on purpose) as a teen. Might be some kind of nerve bundle in that area. Not a recommended shot placement, but glad it worked!
All should strive to be respectful hunters.
You hammer him when you are using hammer bullets
Every time Ron brings up Africa I find people miss the plot that the humanitarian atrocities perpetrated by continuous colonial rule is the real issue. Not wildlife conservation through professional outfits.
Howabout, I humanely killed (or harvested) the animal?
ok Ron i have a question for you that i've been pondering.....in shotgun shells most are in Ga. and not cal... ok taking that..the .410 is not a Ga. but a cal... with that.... if you look at ..say the judge.. that is made to shoot 410 shotshell and also 45 long colt... this brings my question...WHY ISN'T A 41 CAL BULLET USED HERE.[FOR EXAMPLE 41 MAG.] INSTEAD OF THE 45 COLT????? to me this would be a better fit and more to measurment than the .45 cal..and i understand the mag. problem so we'll say for the sake of argument they were loaded to "41 spec." loads...
36 caliber and once called 36 gauge overseas.
A .410 shotshell in a 45-cal rifled barrel will perform just fine, but a 45-cal. bullet in a .410 barrel, esp. with a full choke -- not so much!
Ron I'm amused with " "assaults" on one of my favorite hunting cartridges in my browning 86.just FYI had to shoot 300 somthing lb Varmit.300 winchester bulletsorta brad ..side.little hole near side , everything inside of 16 inch circle went out opposite side.i guessed thats confidence entering swamp alder thicket for wounded dangerous game? Maybe? 🦬🐎 politics a side. Yes it was a hollow point
How about -I dropped him( in his tracks)
What sounds crass and uncaring to me is not finishing off a deer that you had previously wounded.
Ditto on the cutesy sayings. May be getting old myself, but I prefer less bragging and more truth. I also prefer single shot rifles. If you can't kill it with one shot, you don't need to be hunting. I have, however, left way too many holes in the sky when shooting at ducks. Shame!
Meat in the freezer
Absolutely can not stand it when people say “smoked him”. Quit watching Whoteewho because he always says that. So disrespectful to the animal.
Especially on the tv “hunting” shows. The vast majority of the time they make a less than ideal shot and then proclaim “I smoked em”. It makes me think that they smoked something, but it wasn’t what they were shooting at.
"If people understood hunting better", today, they can't figure out what a woman is.
I never liked the heart shot and no one should use it on anything that has the potential to hurt you back. I want to break 1 shoulder at least and both would be better, that takes a long for caliber bullet. As of yet I have not found a .224 bullet that is yet able to do so. Even if not killed on the spot there is no animal that can travel as fast and as far on 3 legs as on 4. I will always shoot a firearm able to shoot a bullet capable of going true both shoulder bones of any animal I hunt. As for the 45/70 style calibers heavy bullets with a large flat tip will work better than spire points and I have found them more effective than round nose bullets.
From what I have seen, a wide flat tip (65% or so diameter) helps a larger diameter, relatively slow bullet tear tissue. The larger flat tips also tend to travel in a straighter line.
Those comment people came up with to describe killing, big game animals “shows disrespect for what God created, and blessed us with“.
Don't go all bibley on us.
I think you've hit on it, James. It's a matter of showing respect to Nature, the animals we hunt, our ancient traditions as hunters, and ourselves as responsible participants in Nature's pageantry. I don't think we have to be reverential about it all the tim and certainly not pompous/morally superior, but a sincere appreciation overall looks a lot better than locker-room jocularity and joking.
I also have had enough of the killing cliches. Phrases such as smoked him are enough to turn a non hunter into an anti hunter, and we don’t need that.
WHACK EM STACK EM, was the stupidest thing I ever heard people say. Ted Nugent has done alot of good for hunting and shooting but he used to say that phrase all the time. I thought, HOW DISRESPECTFUL! I'm sure he didn't see it that way. Oh well, TO EACH THEIR OWN.
Ole ron sounded a lil WHACKED OUT For the first few minutes of this video