These are more closely related to cabooses than brake vans. It's a common misconception by people in Europe and the UK, but even in the days when there wasn't continuous braking through the entire train, the caboose was never used to aid in braking. It was just a place for the brakemen to ride and for the conductor to do his paperwork while monitoring the train.
Very similar but with some differences: - Both caboose and Begleitwagen have a man responsible for the train. The conductor or train leader. And his work place. That's the main reason German ones are behind the locomotive - A caboose is a distinct wagon type while a Begleitwagen was more a function. Be it a purpose build Begleitwagen, a usually bigger and faster luggage car, a simple box car or a even just a flat top. It's some space available to the discretion of the train leader that every train, goods or passenger, needed to have. - Both carry the tools needed for loading and unloading - Both carry extra personel, personel that is needed somewhere else and for German goods trains also passengers if the train leader agrees - German trains didn't have guards. Narrator might be confused by the term Schutzwagen (protection wagon) which just describes that these wagons were used to isolate the dangerous steam locomotive and often equally dangerous early wagons (heating, lighting, liquid transport, etc) from each other. Though in practice heating wagons and post wagons usually were between luggage wagons and the locomotive. - Extra space: like modern airplanes the available space could be used for short term deliveries, especially in the faster passenger trains, quite lucrative - Mentality: Americans viewed the caboose as an addition to a train. Locomotive + a freight or passenger car is a complete train but loc + caboose would be weird. For Germans loc + freight or passenger wagon would be weird but loc + Begleitwagen/luggage car was a complete train.
I'm sure if the need was there, the caboose's brakes were tied down along with the rest of the train. One more set of brake shoes to help stop is better than one more car freewheeling and contributing to slack action. In UK practice, besides contributung to braking, the job of the brake van is to keep the couplings stretched taut to keep from jerking with slack action and possibly breaking the train in two.
Most people don't know that the conductor / guard is the head of the train not the footplate crew. all paperwork, line signal confirmation, braketests, inspections (f.e. hammering the steel rims for cracks) routeplanning, composition of all cars was done by the conductor / guard. Countries who later (due to brakepipes) placed their guard vans at the rear of the Train often had elephant ears (sponsons) on the sides and/or a lookout post on top so guards could look along the train (open doors, loose tarps etc etc.) In case of an emergency he could signal and stop the entire train by using the train brake lever in the guards van. On the border cross lines between Germany and the Netherlands a German guards van was behind or in the locomotive tender and at the rear a Dutch guards van was used. After the age of steam and enough interiour place on diesel and electric locomotives the guards van disapeard rapidly. There were some oddities in brake vans. In the Netherlands (1920's - 1950's) some had a womens only toilet in them.
Another reason for carrying this thing directly behind the locomotive was that there could be a lot of coupling/uncoupling of individual cars during the trip at various stations (depending on train type of course) and this wagon would by definition follow the train all the way to the final station, so having it elsewhere would mean even more coupling and uncoupling to reattach it to the train at every stop. Directly behind the loco it could stay happily in place for the entire voyage. They were also known as "Güterzugbegleitwagen", more or less "goods train accompaniment wagon" which perhaps better describes their purpose in life, to tag along a goods train. Some model train companies, German ones who really should know better, have made models of this kind of car with a "Schlusslicht", an end-of-train indicator light, which looks good but makes very little sense in context :)
Glad you mentioned the "Schlusslicht" equipped models - as a naive Canadian, I was about to order one, thinking it would look snazzy at the end of my trains. Well, I may still get one, but now I know better where to place it and how the lights will be hidden.
I'm very grateful for this channel covering all this stuff about German and European railroading in English! It seems like most foamers only care about their own locale so don't pay attention to other countries, so information like this usually isn't available in other languages. The search term "German Caboose" doesn't return many results!
I have the Fleischmann N scale model of the wagon that can be seen at 4:35, and it has working red lights, so it's perfect for the end of the train... but now I've learned it should travel as the first wagon after the loco instead as of the last!
As mentioned in other comments these seem more similar to the US caboose than a UK brake van. As for reasons to put the wagon at the back of the train the reason cabooses were put at the rear was to make sure there were brakemen on the runaway section of the train to stop it in the event of a broken coupling.
As far as I remember, Interfrigo, a European railtransportcompany specialised in climatised transport used railcars with a similar function for mechanics/operators guarding their trains. For keeping an eye on correct working , emergency repairs of the freeze aggregates and adept the aggregates to changing climate zones. I once stood next such railcar on the ferry from Hälsingborg-Helsingør or Rødby-Puttgarden.
American cabooses were placed at the rear of the train because of automatic air brake systems. The conductor and rear brakemen were responsible for verifying the air pressure at the rear during the trip and during air brake tests because it’s proof of ‘brake pipe continuity’-that you have the entire train and the air brake hoses are properly connected and the brakes are functioning throughout the train. American freight trains have often been longer too, so the conductor is able to see eg when the rear end has passed a speed restriction.
As usual a very interesting summary. This also occurred elsewhere and e.g. the then Yugoslav State Railways (JDŽ until 1952 and JŽ after that) had similar wagons. These wagons were based on the concept of Pwg 14 and the older ones were designated as class Dt (with a wooden body) and later upgraded ones as Dd (with a steel body) which entered service just after WW2 and lasted until the early 1980s. Here, too, they were normally placed directly after the locomotive, but they were not only used in freight trains but also as staff cars in passenger trains.
It amazes me that the German brake van (Pwg) is located at the front of the goods train and behind the locomotive for easier access for the driver and fireman to communicate to the guard The closest thing to it is that on Britain railways, there are two brake vans (one in front and one behind) but that required two guards
Excellent video, very useful for running my German model trains. I'll dedicate a video to my Piko Prussian guard's van and add the link to your video in the description box.
I would love to, but finding technical drawings of them which I need to create my models is incredibly difficult. However, it is on my long-term to-do list!
So I've been watching your videos. You very clearly know your topic very well, and thats why I'm inclined to ask you about some 2-8-8-4 locomotives that were built for Brazil by Henschel?
Is cabin tender an actual term in Germany? Here in the US we used to have a similar thing, the official term was “head end brakeman’s cupola,” but most railroaders just called them “doghouses” because of their small size
Would like to know if there was any significance to all the colour schemes (liveries) of the German passenger wagons from the 60ies or so and onward. Next to the general green wagons with the burgundy Mitropa wagons, there were navy blue D-Zug wagons, Silberlingen, TEE Burgundy with beige, ocean blue with beige, to then white with green band, light blue band, red band, red with pink band, etc.
Excellent video as always, and wonderful to know about the usage and the fact they were towed in multiple. Finally have a use for the usual multitude of the guards gepackwagen one accumulates. My question is: how long, and what priorities were given, regarding the change of livery and insignia from the DRG to the bundesbahn and the Reichsbahn? I can imagine at least slapping some paint over the obvious insignia, however with many, many thousands of even basic abteilwagen this would've still been a mighty process. And, of course, I'd imagine the blue grey ellok would've hung around a while before pine green? There's footage of the British railways in the sixties, and even after nearly 20 years some locos were still sporting their groups e.g LMS or GWR. Obviously different priorities with the DRG, but any immediate change would've been a logistical nightmare. Look at the issues surrounding the bundesbahnbahn/reichsbahn ellok red frames. Cheers for the video. Awesome
A very good question! Any problematic insignia was pretty much removed or painted over instantly, and labels for the different occupation zones were added. But everything else had a very low priority after the war, especially as good paints were scarce. I'll add it to my list of video ideas, as this is quite a fascinating topic with a lot to talk about!
Hallo SteelBridge! Deine Videos sind so gut! BITTE schreibe doch noch in die Überschrift Pwg 14( wenn der es ist?) und Modelleisenbahn H0 Spur 0 oder so Begriffe bis das Textfeld voll ist! Ich hatte nach genau so einem Bericht gesucht in der you Tb Suche oben und Dein Video "But just as important" wurde nicht gelistet! die Bilder kann yoTBe noch nicht auslesen =) UND gib doch auch oben in der Beschreibung ruhig noch an, das man die Untertitel aktivieren kann und dort automatisch übersetzt deutsch auswählen kann! Ich gucke meist den Film erst nur englisch und dann doch auch mit den deutschen Untertiteln noch mal =) Ein großes Lob noch wie Du die Lichtumgebung in Deinem Rendering Programm gesetzt hast !!! DAS sieht alles so gut aus, ich musste 10 mal hingucken bis ich bemerkt habe, das es nicht echt ist =) vielen Dank für Deine Mühe! viele Grüße Stefan OH ja ein ABO naklar =))
How about a movie about order of passenger and luggage cars particularly for KPEV? There are up to 4 classes. Some cars are brown/beige and green. Gepackwagen is often brown. Now there are scenarios: Abteilwagen 3-achsiger, I guess gepackwagen just after dampflok but what next? LOK+G(1-2)(2-3)(3)? Classes 2-3-4 in order? and if I have cars (4)(4-3)(3-2)(2) class? What if there is no luggage classs, should the highest class be in the middle, aft or front? For 4-achsiger express cars, brown gepackwagen, (2-3)passenger and (3) passenger, should it be LOK+G(2-3)(3) so second class is closest to gepackwagen? What with corridor wagen 3-achsiger, and NO gepackwagen: LOK+(4)(4-3)(3)(3-4)? How about 2-achsiger with corridor, 1st epoch: LOK+G(2-3)(3)(4) ?
About every 6-8 axle. As Germany had mostly simple 2 axle freight wagons every 3rd had a manned manual brake with the cabin in driving direction so the brakeman could read signals and hear instructions.
@@Annoying_DragonsThanks this confirms that in Bulgarian state railways there was a document from the 1950s that manualy breaked freigth trains must have 30 or 45 present braked axles depending on max speed of the train. There are also special hand signals for brakeman
where do you find the drawings/refrences for your models? i've tried finding drawings of the front of a v60 but none are available. i'd be suprised if you found any even for your wagons.
I get most of my drawings from either official railway publications or specialist books. For example, the publisher Eisenbahn Kurier has a great library of various German locomotive classes, including the V60. Most of these books include copies of all the drawings a modeller could need, and sometimes even great photographs from the assembling process. For goods wagons, I can't recommend enough the series "Güterwagen" by Stefan Carstens as these books come with custom-made drawings of all the most important wagon types specifically aimed at modellers. However, all of these books are unfortunately only available in German and - while very much worth their money - quite costly, if they are still available at all. Some of the goods wagons books are currently on clearance and as such quite cheap, while others are only available second hand.
@@steelbridgemodels alr thanks, I've bene searching for the models for days and this is a huge help (and I can understand German cause I'm learning it and I'm from belgium so dutch is already a halfway point)
Thank you for disabusing us of the concept that this ubiquitous vehicle used during the steam locomotive's heyday did NOT carry parcels and miscellaneous baggage as might the Stückgut Schnellverkehr service, but principally the freight crew, their personal supplies, and tools necessary to conduct the operation. Indeed "Güterzuggepäckwagen" is entirely misleading
These are more closely related to cabooses than brake vans. It's a common misconception by people in Europe and the UK, but even in the days when there wasn't continuous braking through the entire train, the caboose was never used to aid in braking. It was just a place for the brakemen to ride and for the conductor to do his paperwork while monitoring the train.
Very similar but with some differences:
- Both caboose and Begleitwagen have a man responsible for the train. The conductor or train leader. And his work place. That's the main reason German ones are behind the locomotive
- A caboose is a distinct wagon type while a Begleitwagen was more a function. Be it a purpose build Begleitwagen, a usually bigger and faster luggage car, a simple box car or a even just a flat top. It's some space available to the discretion of the train leader that every train, goods or passenger, needed to have.
- Both carry the tools needed for loading and unloading
- Both carry extra personel, personel that is needed somewhere else and for German goods trains also passengers if the train leader agrees
- German trains didn't have guards. Narrator might be confused by the term Schutzwagen (protection wagon) which just describes that these wagons were used to isolate the dangerous steam locomotive and often equally dangerous early wagons (heating, lighting, liquid transport, etc) from each other. Though in practice heating wagons and post wagons usually were between luggage wagons and the locomotive.
- Extra space: like modern airplanes the available space could be used for short term deliveries, especially in the faster passenger trains, quite lucrative
- Mentality: Americans viewed the caboose as an addition to a train. Locomotive + a freight or passenger car is a complete train but loc + caboose would be weird. For Germans loc + freight or passenger wagon would be weird but loc + Begleitwagen/luggage car was a complete train.
I'm sure if the need was there, the caboose's brakes were tied down along with the rest of the train. One more set of brake shoes to help stop is better than one more car freewheeling and contributing to slack action.
In UK practice, besides contributung to braking, the job of the brake van is to keep the couplings stretched taut to keep from jerking with slack action and possibly breaking the train in two.
Cabeese and brake vans are the same, just a different design
Oh yes, the emergency brake valve and pressure gauge in the caboose was just for nothing
@@Annoying_Dragons "German trains didn't have guards" yes they did - "guard" is British English for "conductor"/"Zugführer".
Most people don't know that the conductor / guard is the head of the train not the footplate crew.
all paperwork, line signal confirmation, braketests, inspections (f.e. hammering the steel rims for cracks) routeplanning, composition of all cars was done by the conductor / guard.
Countries who later (due to brakepipes) placed their guard vans at the rear of the Train often had elephant ears (sponsons) on the sides and/or a lookout post on top so guards could look along the train (open doors, loose tarps etc etc.)
In case of an emergency he could signal and stop the entire train by using the train brake lever in the guards van.
On the border cross lines between Germany and the Netherlands a German guards van was behind or in the locomotive tender and at the rear a Dutch guards van was used.
After the age of steam and enough interiour place on diesel and electric locomotives the guards van disapeard rapidly.
There were some oddities in brake vans.
In the Netherlands (1920's - 1950's) some had a womens only toilet in them.
Another reason for carrying this thing directly behind the locomotive was that there could be a lot of coupling/uncoupling of individual cars during the trip at various stations (depending on train type of course) and this wagon would by definition follow the train all the way to the final station, so having it elsewhere would mean even more coupling and uncoupling to reattach it to the train at every stop. Directly behind the loco it could stay happily in place for the entire voyage. They were also known as "Güterzugbegleitwagen", more or less "goods train accompaniment wagon" which perhaps better describes their purpose in life, to tag along a goods train. Some model train companies, German ones who really should know better, have made models of this kind of car with a "Schlusslicht", an end-of-train indicator light, which looks good but makes very little sense in context :)
I suggest covering Stückgutschnellverkehr and Leig units (which were assembled using among other things a Pwg).
Glad you mentioned the "Schlusslicht" equipped models - as a naive Canadian, I was about to order one, thinking it would look snazzy at the end of my trains. Well, I may still get one, but now I know better where to place it and how the lights will be hidden.
I learn so much about German railways from your videos, thank you. Keep up the great work.
I'm very grateful for this channel covering all this stuff about German and European railroading in English! It seems like most foamers only care about their own locale so don't pay attention to other countries, so information like this usually isn't available in other languages. The search term "German Caboose" doesn't return many results!
I have the Fleischmann N scale model of the wagon that can be seen at 4:35, and it has working red lights, so it's perfect for the end of the train... but now I've learned it should travel as the first wagon after the loco instead as of the last!
As mentioned in other comments these seem more similar to the US caboose than a UK brake van. As for reasons to put the wagon at the back of the train the reason cabooses were put at the rear was to make sure there were brakemen on the runaway section of the train to stop it in the event of a broken coupling.
As far as I remember, Interfrigo, a European railtransportcompany specialised in climatised transport used railcars with a similar function for mechanics/operators guarding their trains. For keeping an eye on correct working , emergency repairs of the freeze aggregates and adept the aggregates to changing climate zones. I once stood next such railcar on the ferry from Hälsingborg-Helsingør or Rødby-Puttgarden.
American cabooses were placed at the rear of the train because of automatic air brake systems. The conductor and rear brakemen were responsible for verifying the air pressure at the rear during the trip and during air brake tests because it’s proof of ‘brake pipe continuity’-that you have the entire train and the air brake hoses are properly connected and the brakes are functioning throughout the train. American freight trains have often been longer too, so the conductor is able to see eg when the rear end has passed a speed restriction.
Well done! 👍👍
i have learned new stuff about guards wagons today
yippe!!
As usual a very interesting summary. This also occurred elsewhere and e.g. the then Yugoslav State Railways (JDŽ until 1952 and JŽ after that) had similar wagons. These wagons were based on the concept of Pwg 14 and the older ones were designated as class Dt (with a wooden body) and later upgraded ones as Dd (with a steel body) which entered service just after WW2 and lasted until the early 1980s. Here, too, they were normally placed directly after the locomotive, but they were not only used in freight trains but also as staff cars in passenger trains.
i freaking love your Channel. Thank you :D
Thank you for this amazing video! You are pre-emptively answering many of my German railroading questions
It amazes me that the German brake van (Pwg) is located at the front of the goods train and behind the locomotive for easier access for the driver and fireman to communicate to the guard
The closest thing to it is that on Britain railways, there are two brake vans (one in front and one behind) but that required two guards
Excellent video, very useful for running my German model trains. I'll dedicate a video to my Piko Prussian guard's van and add the link to your video in the description box.
These episodes keep getting better. Any interest in doing one on rail cranes or other maintenance of way cars?
I would love to, but finding technical drawings of them which I need to create my models is incredibly difficult. However, it is on my long-term to-do list!
I love your videos such great 3d and such excellent information!
Good Video, as always
Grüße aus Meiningen
Wow very cool bro love it
Very good video, but unfortunately no pictures from the inside of the Pwg 14
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to finish the interior. Eventually I will catch up on that!
So I've been watching your videos. You very clearly know your topic very well, and thats why I'm inclined to ask you about some 2-8-8-4 locomotives that were built for Brazil by Henschel?
I love your video's
Is cabin tender an actual term in Germany? Here in the US we used to have a similar thing, the official term was “head end brakeman’s cupola,” but most railroaders just called them “doghouses” because of their small size
Yes, the German word is "Kabinentender".
Would like to know if there was any significance to all the colour schemes (liveries) of the German passenger wagons from the 60ies or so and onward. Next to the general green wagons with the burgundy Mitropa wagons, there were navy blue D-Zug wagons, Silberlingen, TEE Burgundy with beige, ocean blue with beige, to then white with green band, light blue band, red band, red with pink band, etc.
Yes there is, but that was mostly phased out in later years.
Excellent video as always, and wonderful to know about the usage and the fact they were towed in multiple. Finally have a use for the usual multitude of the guards gepackwagen one accumulates.
My question is: how long, and what priorities were given, regarding the change of livery and insignia from the DRG to the bundesbahn and the Reichsbahn? I can imagine at least slapping some paint over the obvious insignia, however with many, many thousands of even basic abteilwagen this would've still been a mighty process. And, of course, I'd imagine the blue grey ellok would've hung around a while before pine green?
There's footage of the British railways in the sixties, and even after nearly 20 years some locos were still sporting their groups e.g LMS or GWR. Obviously different priorities with the DRG, but any immediate change would've been a logistical nightmare. Look at the issues surrounding the bundesbahnbahn/reichsbahn ellok red frames.
Cheers for the video. Awesome
A very good question! Any problematic insignia was pretty much removed or painted over instantly, and labels for the different occupation zones were added. But everything else had a very low priority after the war, especially as good paints were scarce. I'll add it to my list of video ideas, as this is quite a fascinating topic with a lot to talk about!
Hallo SteelBridge! Deine Videos sind so gut! BITTE schreibe doch noch in die Überschrift Pwg 14( wenn der es ist?) und Modelleisenbahn H0 Spur 0 oder so Begriffe bis das Textfeld voll ist!
Ich hatte nach genau so einem Bericht gesucht in der you Tb Suche oben und Dein Video "But just as important" wurde nicht gelistet!
die Bilder kann yoTBe noch nicht auslesen =)
UND gib doch auch oben in der Beschreibung ruhig noch an, das man die Untertitel aktivieren kann und dort automatisch übersetzt deutsch auswählen kann!
Ich gucke meist den Film erst nur englisch und dann doch auch mit den deutschen Untertiteln noch mal =)
Ein großes Lob noch wie Du die Lichtumgebung in Deinem Rendering Programm gesetzt hast !!!
DAS sieht alles so gut aus, ich musste 10 mal hingucken bis ich bemerkt habe, das es nicht echt ist =)
vielen Dank für Deine Mühe!
viele Grüße
Stefan
OH ja ein ABO naklar =))
How about a movie about order of passenger and luggage cars particularly for KPEV?
There are up to 4 classes. Some cars are brown/beige and green. Gepackwagen is often brown.
Now there are scenarios:
Abteilwagen 3-achsiger, I guess gepackwagen just after dampflok but what next? LOK+G(1-2)(2-3)(3)?
Classes 2-3-4 in order? and if I have cars (4)(4-3)(3-2)(2) class? What if there is no luggage classs, should the highest class be in the middle, aft or front?
For 4-achsiger express cars, brown gepackwagen, (2-3)passenger and (3) passenger, should it be LOK+G(2-3)(3) so second class is closest to gepackwagen?
What with corridor wagen 3-achsiger, and NO gepackwagen: LOK+(4)(4-3)(3)(3-4)?
How about 2-achsiger with corridor, 1st epoch: LOK+G(2-3)(3)(4) ?
Is it right to say these are more like crew rest cars? Very interesting video. Always have been curious about these wagons.
It is! Except for the chief guard and pack master, who did most of their work inside them.
How many brakeman did a freight tran had ? did every wagon had brakeman
About every 6-8 axle. As Germany had mostly simple 2 axle freight wagons every 3rd had a manned manual brake with the cabin in driving direction so the brakeman could read signals and hear instructions.
@@Annoying_DragonsThanks this confirms that in Bulgarian state railways there was a document from the 1950s that manualy breaked freigth trains must have 30 or 45 present braked axles depending on max speed of the train. There are also special hand signals for brakeman
where do you find the drawings/refrences for your models? i've tried finding drawings of the front of a v60 but none are available. i'd be suprised if you found any even for your wagons.
I get most of my drawings from either official railway publications or specialist books. For example, the publisher Eisenbahn Kurier has a great library of various German locomotive classes, including the V60. Most of these books include copies of all the drawings a modeller could need, and sometimes even great photographs from the assembling process. For goods wagons, I can't recommend enough the series "Güterwagen" by Stefan Carstens as these books come with custom-made drawings of all the most important wagon types specifically aimed at modellers. However, all of these books are unfortunately only available in German and - while very much worth their money - quite costly, if they are still available at all. Some of the goods wagons books are currently on clearance and as such quite cheap, while others are only available second hand.
@@steelbridgemodels alr thanks, I've bene searching for the models for days and this is a huge help (and I can understand German cause I'm learning it and I'm from belgium so dutch is already a halfway point)
Thank you for disabusing us of the concept that this ubiquitous vehicle used during the steam locomotive's heyday did NOT carry parcels and miscellaneous baggage as might the Stückgut Schnellverkehr service, but principally the freight crew, their personal supplies, and tools necessary to conduct the operation. Indeed "Güterzuggepäckwagen" is entirely misleading
It very much is! However, they could carry some parcels, too, but it was certainly not their main usage or intention.
ne video idee is noch...
Wie würden Wagen bahandelt die international führen?