"I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time here" My borther in Christ, being out in the fresh air turning perfectly good ammo into noise and dopamine is never a waste of time. A waste of money maybe; but never time.
Copper turns purple at 520 F. If you increase the gas you increase the heat. Increasing the heat will turn it blue. Decreasing the gas will decrease the heat and keep the color at orange then yellow.
On today’s episode of “We literally didn’t learn anything” Professor Hop destroys the resale value of rare magazines while mag dumping into trash. Somebody get this man a lab coat.
What is this "rare magazines" stuff? Seriously. They look like they're just mil-spec. Heard Hop mention them a few times in the vid, but are the Surefeed mags really that big of a deal?
@@Game-The-Systemthey are as good as mil spec can be. They are recognized as one of the best mil spec magazines, but unfortunately they stopped production, I think last year.
I think people vastly overestimate the amount that carbon fouling matters. I clean my trap gun once a season, at the end of the season. That’s ~1200 rounds per year, and I have never had a single issue in 14 years of shooting trap, with 10 of those years being with a Remington 1187 and the last 4 with a Benelli ethos. I did have to replace the gas o-ring once on my 1187, but that is my dad’s gun that he bought in the 80s My main training AR right now is a Geissele 16”. I cleaned it when I got it, and wiped down the upper and BCG with slip2k grease. I’ve never cleaned it or added lube. It’s filthy, and yet it goes bang every single time and shows no signs of slowing down. It has ~1500 rounds through it over the last couple years, and quite a bit of that is just steel case tula. 95% of those rounds have been suppressed with an RC2 762 Idk, I just haven’t ever seen the need to obsess over cleaning. I shoot a gun until it won’t run, then take 500 rounds off of that round count and clean it at those intervals. YMMV
Depends how much you shoot i shoot at least 15k rounds per year about 288 rounds per week. so i clean my rifles on schedule I missed my cleaning schedule 1 time and my chamber was so dirty it couldn’t seat a round It was fine when temperatures were high but when it was time to go outdoors in freezing temp wouldn’t run. Clean your guns regularly with hard use even if it runs or don’t shoot that much a clean weapon will be better then a dirty weapon.
I have 3x pws with high back pressure cans. After a few hundred rounds, they are all filthy in lower. I've got 500rds on KAK/12.5/high BP can. Lower looks the same. A lower BP can is going to make WAY more difference in lower filth. I LOVE my KAK K-spec, no more right ear plug, sounds like PWS to me AND spectators I've asked to judge. The dual ejector is amazing, I wish my 308 had that.
And this is why you can’t get rid of the blowback by tuning like high flow cans: that gas hanging out in the barrel still has to go somewhere. AGB or not, there’s a shit ton more gas in the barrel than what you sending back into the action.
Probably gasses with the most complete combustion particles but still more than the milspec unsuppressed created a thin oxide layer on your ammo. Just that first iridescent stage before becoming brown
He's got charisma, i could watch him wash the dishes. Or shoot computers, lamps, tv's, old chipped dishes like i do. [Don't tell mom the babysitter is dead]-"the dishes are, done, man".
Used to watch him review vidya gaems on his ancient basically abandoned channel. You can watch him play some on the nova group channel these days. Pretty funny.
BIG thx for the follow up to your previous vid, Hop! You're a giant amongst men. Of course shooting suppressed with a standard BCG introduces a boat load of crap into the action, anyways. Was curious to see if this particular KAK BCG exacerbated the problem.
I love coming to Hop’s channel to learn more esoteric information on parts I have never had a need for. In all seriousness though, Hop you make the most seemingly complicated stuff very understandable. I appreciate what you do
I have this BCG and w suppressor use the ammo in the mag gets extremely dirty no matter where the gas is directed. No matter what u will be cleaning a mess. But the very dirty loading ammo works fine.
Thanks for the video Hop. This is where you can find no nonsense videos on firearms and issues we all deal with delivered at an intelligence level that keeps the cavemen at bay.
Don't beat yourself up. Shooting on a warm sunny day...is shooting on a warm sunny day. You needed a Bluetooth headset instead of talking to us. But, I appreciate the work you put in. My question to you is what did the lowers look like? I found a bigger problem with the crud around the selectors when shooting suppressed. I put in Bootleg BCG's to fix the issue. Did the K-Spec crap somewhere else? Great video!
I'm happy to see more 12.5 middy on screen. I rather enjoy mine, made up of a Triarc barrel, Riflespeed block, and MK4 Federal rail. Its sitting on a A5 equipped lower and it was very worth the time and money.
@@johnkrstyen7351 Look man, I am just calling it out as it is. It is obvious that Stephen King went on a boy's trip to the pacific northwest in the 1990s
I just got one. Ran a few hundred rounds through it in a MK-12. I can tell a difference in the amount of gas coming back in my face from the AEM-5. No difference whatsoever so far in feeding/reliably. Only downside so far is the thing is hella expensive.
Always seem to drop these videos at the perfect time. I was JUST eying their full chrome K spec bcg the other day. I will say if you shoot suppressed a lot you should periodically shove a CLP soaked rag and work it inside the mag to wipe out the inside. I was having some pretty consistent feeding issues with older mags once the fouling built up a lot and cleaning them solved it.
I got to try my K-spec against my CMC three port carrier earlier and basically came to the conclusion that supressors just make everything dirtier anyway.
Hi I am from sunny Scotland, recently I purchased a spikes tactical 12 inch barrel straight pull(UK law ,no semi autos larger than.22lr😥) I have changed the fcg springs to JP ones,great improvement, getting a moderator (suppressor)any recommendations about what next to change,improve,fettle with,waste money etc,I will take some abuse about no gas parts ar,s,(be gentle)take note that I am probably one of a handful of ar(5.56mm) owners in Scotland,all the best to you crazy and wonderful Americans❤
Sounds like this would go well with my 300blk pistol. Of course with subs, there’s no gas issue to be aware of, but with supers I definitely notice the gas
Forgot to control for fouling that was created in the rifle by shooting the previous magazine. Should have 4 different rifles with same barrel length, same suppressor and then control. It would make the test more accurate
@@Hoplopfheil I'm just pointing out that for scientific accuracy you'd want to track the rifle fouling per round by pairing the rifle to the mag, allowing for no cross contamination between mags. And the only reason for pointing it out is for absurdities sake. No one actually expects you to do it Hop. We're sadists, yes, we're not quite that level of sadistic.
My rounds get filthy shooting suppressed. And yes, when its warm and dry out, the fouling isnt bad but when you have hot gas hit cold rounds in the stack, it tends to condensate and stick.
I’m pretty tempted to get the carrier for a 300blk. I’m going to get a BRT EZ tune first gas tube first though. I have a dedicated suppressed gas tube in a 556 and it definitely helped with the gas with the GA M4SD2 (terrible back pressure on that can).
Maybe this is an annoying question to people who aren't new to suppressors but do suppressors ~in general~ dirty magazines to such an extent that reliability could eventually become an issue?
Which suppressor(higher backpressure means more soot), Shooting schedule and environment (especially places with very fine sand that could also be getting in the mag) are going to be the biggest factors.... the other factor is chambering and extraction of the rounds. If you have a tight chamber that extra soot could be problematic. Though a high back-pressure can should in theory help with the extraction. Though if the rounds are sticking enough that extra backpressure could result in tearing the head off the round. All that being said, generally its not going to be an issue. However always test your specific setup before using it for duty/home defense etc. Suppressors will in general make the gun dirtier, so you do need to increase your cleaning schedule. Dont be the internet cool guy that never cleans his guns, but also dont be a boomer and scrape it white glove clean. Basic maintenance, wipe down the reciever/bcg etc, oil. Good to go.... if your mags are getting very dirty, clean them too. Id also suggest using a clean(ed) or fresh mag when storing for home defense/duty etc.... no way any suppressor will dirty a clean gun/mag enough to stop working from even a few hundred rounds. And if its really a concern get a higher flow rate / lower backpressure silencer such as Huxwrx, Surefire RC3, SIG etc .... in general higher flow/hybrid flow thru cans are where the industry is trending. Especially for 5.56 (flow thru can be less ideal for subsonic rounds. Ala 300blk subs, or 147gr 9mm etc ...but that is where the hybrid cans are coming in)
Obviously the fouling on unchambered rounds in the magazine is a VERY MINOR issue that resets itself with every new magazine. I wonder if this could cause any longer term problems with magazine function long term, say maybe the spring experiences more wear and fouling?
It's an AR... Not really enough to say about it to do a video. He has some pre-made psa lowers that he's had some gripes with (buffer tube not screwed in far enough) but that's kinda it.
Apparently my friend and his wife had a “long conversation” about the man vs. bear argument. I asked for her perspective and he didn’t acknowledge I asked about it. I think “long conversation” was code for a “fight”.
I would like to see unsuppressed, with the K-spec, compared to unsuppressed with a milspec, I would think that would be a more visible comparison, because you wouldn't have the fouling from the silencer, as you are probably always going to get some fouling with a traditional baffle can.
Anyone know if Hop is a Trumptard?
He's a libertarian
If you find out, please let me know
Would that change your opinion on the content of his videos?
Imagine disregarding all points someone makes due to disagreeing with one *potential* aspect of someone else. I refuse to believe you're that stupid.
Trump doesn't currently produce any free float tubes, buffer systems, or IR lasers so hop probably doesn't know much about the guy.
UA-camrs that blow money on parts and ammo for experiments are the real heroes
what a pathetic opinion😂😂😂
@@chimpo131 speaking of your own?
@@chimpo131OP is using hyperbole bro, I don't thinks OP thinks peaple like this a real heroes. Just a cut above the rest of the guntubers.
Celebrate • The worst VDO you’ve ever uploaded. I had to shut it off.
Honestly, they provide a service for us. And that service is showing us what's out there. The most honest ones are the best
this is easily your most paul harrell coded video
needs more not poptart destruction.
@@PistoleroJesse 😢
Hop is turning into Paul Harrel before our very eyes.
A successor must eventually be crowned. It is an honor for anyone merely to be considered worthy.
@@Ridonkulous05Tarts for the Paul God
He also lives about 90 min away from Paul.
This is the type of ‘tism I subscribed for
Me I took,is this the dyslexic channel?
High level acoustic content 😂😂😂
Don’t be a regard
I thought it was very.... artistic
10:00 when the Courier confronts Benny at the Tops.
Can't belive you caught that NV reference
If the AR-15 poops where it eats, then the PTR-91 eats where it poops.
And my M1A eats poop where it is .
lmao
Spending time and money just to test out something hat may be shitty is why I show up here. The tism is real
I used this video to guide my purchases for a number of things, including a house. Thanks Hop!
I use Hop's videos as a guide for buying mail order brides mostly.
"I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time here" My borther in Christ, being out in the fresh air turning perfectly good ammo into noise and dopamine is never a waste of time. A waste of money maybe; but never time.
Purple bullets do more damage if we're working on MMO rules 🤔
67% chance to apply poison DOT status effects per hit.
DEI tipped
@@tnnaasGreen is Poison, Purple is Necrotic Damage you filthy casual.
@@T0tenkampf tipped with AIDS oh no
My bullets are gold/yellow. Mine are better.
Copper turns purple at 520 F. If you increase the gas you increase the heat. Increasing the heat will turn it blue. Decreasing the gas will decrease the heat and keep the color at orange then yellow.
This is the answer. You are blasting those rounds with tons of heat
could it affect accuracy?
@@narutobroken But the flow 556K is supposed to push all that heat and gas forward, right?
@@mig1nc Right which is why I'm confused lol
Obviously there is gas going through the bcg cycling the weapon you fucking rocket scientists
On today’s episode of “We literally didn’t learn anything” Professor Hop destroys the resale value of rare magazines while mag dumping into trash. Somebody get this man a lab coat.
What is this "rare magazines" stuff? Seriously. They look like they're just mil-spec. Heard Hop mention them a few times in the vid, but are the Surefeed mags really that big of a deal?
@@Game-The-Systemthey are as good as mil spec can be. They are recognized as one of the best mil spec magazines, but unfortunately they stopped production, I think last year.
You don’t know much about anything hub
@@Game-The-SystemI don’t get it either, when a pmag is $10 and have never failed me
They are $25-$30 new ONLY bc they are gray. The black ones go for around $15-$20ea
Thanks for getting your KAK poopy for us in the name of science!
The purple is from an oxide layer being thermally grown and causing thin film interference. Same effect as a colorful oil slick
I think people vastly overestimate the amount that carbon fouling matters. I clean my trap gun once a season, at the end of the season. That’s ~1200 rounds per year, and I have never had a single issue in 14 years of shooting trap, with 10 of those years being with a Remington 1187 and the last 4 with a Benelli ethos. I did have to replace the gas o-ring once on my 1187, but that is my dad’s gun that he bought in the 80s
My main training AR right now is a Geissele 16”. I cleaned it when I got it, and wiped down the upper and BCG with slip2k grease. I’ve never cleaned it or added lube. It’s filthy, and yet it goes bang every single time and shows no signs of slowing down. It has ~1500 rounds through it over the last couple years, and quite a bit of that is just steel case tula. 95% of those rounds have been suppressed with an RC2 762
Idk, I just haven’t ever seen the need to obsess over cleaning. I shoot a gun until it won’t run, then take 500 rounds off of that round count and clean it at those intervals. YMMV
Depends how much you shoot i shoot at least 15k rounds per year about 288 rounds per week. so i clean my rifles on schedule I missed my cleaning schedule 1 time and my chamber was so dirty it couldn’t seat a round It was fine when temperatures were high but when it was time to go outdoors in freezing temp wouldn’t run. Clean your guns regularly with hard use even if it runs or don’t shoot that much a clean weapon will be better then a dirty weapon.
@@arthurpinder7816 there’s your difference between a hobby shooter and a professional shooter, I suppose
I have 3x pws with high back pressure cans. After a few hundred rounds, they are all filthy in lower. I've got 500rds on KAK/12.5/high BP can. Lower looks the same. A lower BP can is going to make WAY more difference in lower filth.
I LOVE my KAK K-spec, no more right ear plug, sounds like PWS to me AND spectators I've asked to judge. The dual ejector is amazing, I wish my 308 had that.
mine does, its meh
Hop, your time with us is never a waste of time. 😊
And this is why you can’t get rid of the blowback by tuning like high flow cans: that gas hanging out in the barrel still has to go somewhere. AGB or not, there’s a shit ton more gas in the barrel than what you sending back into the action.
I get zero information I will use from this video, hop just sooths my smooth brain lol
Lmao
Cool test. I theorize the extra gas being vented downwards is totally independent of the carbon soot being blasted into the magazines.
Probably gasses with the most complete combustion particles but still more than the milspec unsuppressed created a thin oxide layer on your ammo. Just that first iridescent stage before becoming brown
Hop is a grown ass man. James gotta be proud
Negative results are still results.
He's got charisma, i could watch him wash the dishes. Or shoot computers, lamps, tv's, old chipped dishes like i do. [Don't tell mom the babysitter is dead]-"the dishes are, done, man".
Used to watch him review vidya gaems on his ancient basically abandoned channel. You can watch him play some on the nova group channel these days. Pretty funny.
You do throw all that trash away after you shoot it, right?
BIG thx for the follow up to your previous vid, Hop! You're a giant amongst men.
Of course shooting suppressed with a standard BCG introduces a boat load of crap into the action, anyways. Was curious to see if this particular KAK BCG exacerbated the problem.
I love coming to Hop’s channel to learn more esoteric information on parts I have never had a need for. In all seriousness though, Hop you make the most seemingly complicated stuff very understandable. I appreciate what you do
Appreciate the methodical approach!
I have this BCG and w suppressor use the ammo in the mag gets extremely dirty no matter where the gas is directed. No matter what u will be cleaning a mess. But the very dirty loading ammo works fine.
Thanks for the video Hop. This is where you can find no nonsense videos on firearms and issues we all deal with delivered at an intelligence level that keeps the cavemen at bay.
Holy shit Hop you got some rare M420 A69 purple tip, that's crazy how did you manage that.
They say Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King... with his voice! Shouted him apart!
🎼 He blinded me…with SCIENCE!!
The electronic sound plays in my mind every single time I read that.
@@mousepotato581same
@@sinisterthoughts2896 yeh
man, my lesbian aunt just isn't the same after Debra left.
"What the god damn?" Best part of the video. Thanks for the pain staking test you had to endure with this one.
It was 🤔 might cause some research amongst manufacturers,all the best from sunny Troon Scotland
I have a downward venting Kspec and I swear it makes my gun quieter. Thanks for confirming what I thought was true.
Don't beat yourself up. Shooting on a warm sunny day...is shooting on a warm sunny day. You needed a Bluetooth headset instead of talking to us. But, I appreciate the work you put in. My question to you is what did the lowers look like? I found a bigger problem with the crud around the selectors when shooting suppressed. I put in Bootleg BCG's to fix the issue. Did the K-Spec crap somewhere else?
Great video!
Hop never seems bothered by dirty guns, I don't think he ever cleans em
Just long enough for me to make food, not long enough for me to eat and watch. Still fun
The algorithm requires engagement
Yay more hop videos!
Edit: I love learning nothing at all if it means we get more hop vids FYI
Damn a Focus Tripp video and a Hop video in one day? Blessed.
Two videos in a week?? We're getting spoiled
Was still fun to watch. Your first rifle is nice and quiet.
O'l Hopp and his common sense approach to training! always fun to watch! spending his money, so i dont have too!
I'm happy to see more 12.5 middy on screen. I rather enjoy mine, made up of a Triarc barrel, Riflespeed block, and MK4 Federal rail. Its sitting on a A5 equipped lower and it was very worth the time and money.
We did learn something. If we are hunting Barney, use the flow and make the tips purple :)
Holy crap this was well done Hop! Good job!
PURPLE NURPLE
Thank you for you wasting your ammunition instead of me!!! I owe you a few drinks at the bar
Hop looks exactly like stephen king
Do not insult Hop like that.
@@johnkrstyen7351 Look man, I am just calling it out as it is. It is obvious that Stephen King went on a boy's trip to the pacific northwest in the 1990s
As long as he doesn’t pick up kings politics I can live with it.
I just got one. Ran a few hundred rounds through it in a MK-12. I can tell a difference in the amount of gas coming back in my face from the AEM-5. No difference whatsoever so far in feeding/reliably. Only downside so far is the thing is hella expensive.
Always seem to drop these videos at the perfect time. I was JUST eying their full chrome K spec bcg the other day.
I will say if you shoot suppressed a lot you should periodically shove a CLP soaked rag and work it inside the mag to wipe out the inside. I was having some pretty consistent feeding issues with older mags once the fouling built up a lot and cleaning them solved it.
Thanks for your time doing the experiment dude.
We need our clean shaven hop back.
Hop has one of the best comments section on UA-cam. Change my mind.
Thank you for this video
I’m still mad at Okay Industries for discontinuing a product they have made since the 60s all because they were worried about the look for investors.
When Hop said i feel like im wasting my time here,ni thought arent we all? Lol
Hop, doesn't age....Daywalker???
Night Stalker
Not the Hero we want, but the Hero we need
I got to try my K-spec against my CMC three port carrier earlier and basically came to the conclusion that supressors just make everything dirtier anyway.
Watching this video on the toilet made me sleepy. So i switched to a hikock45 vid to take a nap.
Hi I am from sunny Scotland, recently I purchased a spikes tactical 12 inch barrel straight pull(UK law ,no semi autos larger than.22lr😥) I have changed the fcg springs to JP ones,great improvement, getting a moderator (suppressor)any recommendations about what next to change,improve,fettle with,waste money etc,I will take some abuse about no gas parts ar,s,(be gentle)take note that I am probably one of a handful of ar(5.56mm) owners in Scotland,all the best to you crazy and wonderful Americans❤
I know less than nothing about the firearms market and laws in Scotland but I wish you the best!
PMC Xtac my beloved
Kak already did this. With way more rounds.
Sounds like this would go well with my 300blk pistol. Of course with subs, there’s no gas issue to be aware of, but with supers I definitely notice the gas
Saying “BCG” the way you did for the entire video is wild.
Forgot to control for fouling that was created in the rifle by shooting the previous magazine. Should have 4 different rifles with same barrel length, same suppressor and then control. It would make the test more accurate
Jesus Christ
@@Hoplopfheil I'm just pointing out that for scientific accuracy you'd want to track the rifle fouling per round by pairing the rifle to the mag, allowing for no cross contamination between mags. And the only reason for pointing it out is for absurdities sake. No one actually expects you to do it Hop. We're sadists, yes, we're not quite that level of sadistic.
He puts in the work, gents
So we don’t have to.
My rounds get filthy shooting suppressed. And yes, when its warm and dry out, the fouling isnt bad but when you have hot gas hit cold rounds in the stack, it tends to condensate and stick.
Just the tip... the purple tip.
Photos make seeing details easier in videos. For next time.
Hot here in KY means wet, humid to the point of misery starting about this time of year.
I totally appreciate the effort.
For science!
FWIW I personally feel like my cans gas me out much worse when the humidity is high.
Great video.. my thoughts xactly.. not enough material for it to matter. Thanks Hop
Thanks, hop for entertaining! That magwell is large on the flow 556 gun.
Thanks for the test!
Thanks, Hop!
thank you hop I appreciate your content
I’m pretty tempted to get the carrier for a 300blk. I’m going to get a BRT EZ tune first gas tube first though. I have a dedicated suppressed gas tube in a 556 and it definitely helped with the gas with the GA M4SD2 (terrible back pressure on that can).
I have this BCG and should have saved my $ and got another Bootleg ADJ BCG. Now it sits in a box of parts.
Is this that channel where they go out in the desert and shoot guns?
"Bassackwards," or some such?
*smirk 😏
I'd be more interested in whether the downward venting reduces the amount of lead/metal contaminates you consume while shooting.
Maybe this is an annoying question to people who aren't new to suppressors but do suppressors ~in general~ dirty magazines to such an extent that reliability could eventually become an issue?
Theoretically, over a long period of time, yes. If it worries you, clean your mags once or twice a year and you won't have any problems.
Which suppressor(higher backpressure means more soot), Shooting schedule and environment (especially places with very fine sand that could also be getting in the mag) are going to be the biggest factors.... the other factor is chambering and extraction of the rounds. If you have a tight chamber that extra soot could be problematic. Though a high back-pressure can should in theory help with the extraction. Though if the rounds are sticking enough that extra backpressure could result in tearing the head off the round. All that being said, generally its not going to be an issue. However always test your specific setup before using it for duty/home defense etc. Suppressors will in general make the gun dirtier, so you do need to increase your cleaning schedule. Dont be the internet cool guy that never cleans his guns, but also dont be a boomer and scrape it white glove clean. Basic maintenance, wipe down the reciever/bcg etc, oil. Good to go.... if your mags are getting very dirty, clean them too. Id also suggest using a clean(ed) or fresh mag when storing for home defense/duty etc.... no way any suppressor will dirty a clean gun/mag enough to stop working from even a few hundred rounds.
And if its really a concern get a higher flow rate / lower backpressure silencer such as Huxwrx, Surefire RC3, SIG etc .... in general higher flow/hybrid flow thru cans are where the industry is trending. Especially for 5.56 (flow thru can be less ideal for subsonic rounds. Ala 300blk subs, or 147gr 9mm etc ...but that is where the hybrid cans are coming in)
Obviously the fouling on unchambered rounds in the magazine is a VERY MINOR issue that resets itself with every new magazine. I wonder if this could cause any longer term problems with magazine function long term, say maybe the spring experiences more wear and fouling?
See those rounded metal on the top deflecting the gas down the magazine well? If anything it would foul between the lower and magazine!
🇺🇸
shit i might get one of those, the report is hella different
aww kitty
Tism @7: 45 was crazy
Hey hop id love to see you do a, Review of a budget PA-15 from palmetto state armory.
It's an AR... Not really enough to say about it to do a video. He has some pre-made psa lowers that he's had some gripes with (buffer tube not screwed in far enough) but that's kinda it.
Don't think we've seen Hop quite this irritated lol. Heard, maybe. Seen, don't think so...
The real question is which BCG chose the bear or the man?
If it chose the bear, did we… dodge a bullet?
depends, is it bear season
Apparently my friend and his wife had a “long conversation” about the man vs. bear argument. I asked for her perspective and he didn’t acknowledge I asked about it. I think “long conversation” was code for a “fight”.
I guess what we learned from this was actually all the friends we made along the way. ;-)
I would like to see unsuppressed, with the K-spec, compared to unsuppressed with a milspec, I would think that would be a more visible comparison, because you wouldn't have the fouling from the silencer, as you are probably always going to get some fouling with a traditional baffle can.
It's basically zero on both. K specs entire point for the vented bcgs is suppressor use.
What if you come out of a swamp and your lower is full of water? Test the K-Spec for that edge case plz
The Sneedful
Flow = Purple headed yogurt slinger
There is nothing wrong with chasing down a rabbit hole, that why we are here.