Greece vs Rome, with Boris Johnson and Mary Beard
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- Опубліковано 17 січ 2016
- Boris Johnson and Mary Beard debate Greece vs Rome the ultimate clash of civilisations.
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On November 19th 2015 Intelligence Squared hosted the ultimate clash of civilisations: Greece vs Rome. It was also the ultimate clash of intellectual titans. Boris Johnson, Mayor of London and ardent classicist, made the case for Greece; while Mary Beard, Professor of Classics at Cambridge and redoubtable media star, championed Rome.
As Boris argued, the Greeks got there first: in literature, history, art and philosophy. The Iliad and the Odyssey are the earliest surviving epic poems, the foundations on which European literature was built. The Greek myths - the tales of Oedipus, Heracles and Persephone, to name but a few - contain the archetypal plot elements of hubris and nemesis on which even Hollywood films depend today.
It was in ancient Athens that the birth of democracy took place under the leadership of the great statesman Pericles. And in that political climate with its love of freedom and competition, and passion for argument, the great cultural flourishing of classical Athens occurred: the tragedies of Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides; the philosophical writings of Plato and Aristotle; and the marble and stone wonders of the Parthenon. Nothing before or since has matched that explosion of talent in a slice of Mediterranean coast smaller than Gloucestershire, with a population the size of Bristol’s.
But as Mary Beard reminded us, Greece eventually lost out to Rome. Little Athens, with its loose-knit, short-lived empire, had nothing to rival Rome’s scale. From Hadrian’s Wall to north Africa, from Spain’s Atlantic coast to Babylon, the Romans stamped a permanent legacy on architecture, language, religion and politics.
Although nothing can detract from the brilliance of Greek literature, the great Roman writers have an immediacy unmatched by any other ancient culture. Virgil’s epic poem the Aeneid, while invoking Homer, conveys an ambiguity towards war that appeals to modern sensibilities; Catullus’s taut analysis of his own complex emotions and the scatological insults he hurls at his rivals make him seem like the kind of clever and amusing friend we all wish we had. These poets reach out to us with voices that make the intervening 2,000 years vanish.
While Athens declined into a forgotten backwater, Rome became the eternal city, home to the greatest classical buildings on earth - the Colosseum, the Pantheon and Trajan’s column. It is thanks to a Roman emperor, Constantine, that Christianity became both the presiding European religion and the force that shaped the Renaissance. Europe is still built in Rome’s image, despite the fall of the Roman Empire.
Some say that if Mary Beard had been in charge, the Roman Empire would never have fallen. Others say Boris is soon to be the Pericles of Downing Street. Who gets your vote?
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Want to join the debate? Check out the Intelligence Squared website to hear about future live events and podcasts: www.intelligencesquared.com
There’s an alternate universe where Professor Boris Johnson is sat in his Oxford office, wearing tweed, offering a student help with their dissertation on the development of Athenian democracy
Fake Name *is seated.
@@cosmicwakes6443 You, in turn, are living in that alternate universe, aren't you?
I think he would be much happier and the world would be a better place
@@jackcameron4675 are u related to David Cameron
@@userwheretogo yes
The Romans used to say "we conquered Greece with our army, but the Greeks conquered us with their culture"
I think this answers our question
Great Destroyer what a boat load of good Christianity did the Romans
@Great Destroyer rome found its own path in Christianity?
@Great Destroyer Plot twist, the path for Christianity was set by Plato.
I'd include that as a pro-roman argument: it really says a lot about Roman culture that they would say something like that (maybe a bit like the fact that they were proud to think themselves descendants of Aeneas and the defeated Trojans).
Rick Quicker conquer is a hyperbole to emphasise the massive influence of Greek culture on almost all aspects of Roman culture whether that be literature, history, architecture, religion, academia etc etc
As a Greek i think it's safe to say western civilization as we know it wouldn't be the same without both Greece and Rome 🇬🇷🇮🇹
@@fvefve12 Look at China and Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iran, North Korea. That will answer your question.
Very true. Respect must be paid to our ancient forbears
Such a Greek answer - diplomatic and fair!
@@yojukitomodele they were already mixed in culture together when romans bring their culture to the west and the north Europe
@@aspropotamosorg acient persia is just as much part of western civs legacy as the romans and the greeks were. The only reason Iran is a theocracy, is because UK/US meddled in their politics. Their current government overthrough the american backed puppet monarch. And the government the western powers usurped was a modern democratic state. Look up Mohammad Mosaddegh
Irans current state of government is the result of imperialism.. You reap what you sow I guess ..
0:00 : introduction
2:52 : Boris johnsons speech
29:22 : Mary beards speech
56:08 : discussion
1:10:00 : questions from the audience
1:34:42. : results from the final vote
Thank you
Grik e Roman abbiamo. Appreso dai. Greci e noi. Romani li. Abbiamo. Perfezionati Una. Faccia. Una. Razza Siamo. Uguali
thanks! skipping to mary's speech
@@Omar2788 You should really hear Boris' speech it was quite entertaining and made amazing points.
@@lobstered_blue-lobster he mocks seneca's tragedies.. i can't do it..
It's a very strange realization that Boris Johnson would have made a really good college lecturer.
What a great pity he did not become a College lecturer.
@@suefreewoman6581 instead of a great PM?
@@NoumenalSoup No. Instead of a terrible P.M.
@@suefreewoman6581 How is he a terrible PM when he promised to fulfil brexit? The democratic choice of UK.
@@knukkaboom4491 I voted Leave, but it is hardly the only issue. BoJo is already tightening the thumb screws on the sick, and it was totally predictable. As for Brexit, the people who think it's going to happen will no doubt be scanning the skies for Santa in a couple of nights.
Why the classics should still be a part of everyone’s school education in Europe.
Not just europe, in the whole west.
And America.
I’m afraid that would make Western people proud of their heritage, we can’t have such things!
And the result would be a whole generation who wouldn’t have a clue how to change a car wheel or bleed a radiator. The whole country would resemble the metropolitan elite living in the London bubble .
How? I mean what good does the current school system teach us. We might as well give people some idea of where their culture came from, and then let them specialise further down the road.
Watching this i can't get over the feeling that Boris Johnson missed his calling. He would have been a fantastic lecturer.
How i wish he had gone down that career path
He should and could still be a lecturer for the entire country.
I still hold the weird hope that he still could turn out like some sort of Plato of our own time: Traumatised by politics, he sought refuge in the bosom of philosophy!
He's literally the leader of one of the most powerful countries in the world. I don't think he'll be worried mate haha.
ho ho ho into the exam hall?
I love to imagine how ancient greeks and romans would feel if they saw evolved "barbarians" debating about their fallen civilisations. History is madness! :-)
Written history u mean...;=)
@@averayugen8462 Is there any other type? Words fade in time...
lol. it is funny how the so called barbarians became very quickly civilised and ended up owning the entire world pretty much. must be the drops of roman blood left behind
Well, this debate took place in a Roman colony, right? Londonium
@@rogeriopenna9014 Yes Romans taught them how to "take a bath" :-)
Anyone who compares Boris to Trump should be shown this video.
I hear Trump speaking Greek all the time.
@@bigtorrisi Very good!
Exactly
We wait and see what he will do for his country which right now is not doing good , in three years Trump has taken USA to success ,6.5 million new jobs in three years , factories are coming back . Success 👍
Trump was a businessman while Boris was a journalist before becoming leaders of their respective countries
Greece was NOT only Athens! It was Athens, Sparta, Mycenes, Argos, Olympia, Fokea, Syracouses, Macedonia, Epirus, Thebes, Massalia, Alexandria, Miletos etc etc etc
Of course. The Iliad has nothing to do with Athens.
Ionia
The Greeks also gave is the word synecdoche.
Democratic Athens sucked, oligarchic Sparta was the best.
But Athens actually is the birthplace of the Western Civilization
It's interesting how people seem to lump Trump and Johnson together on the global stage because of their similar styles and appearances -- but whatever you think of his politics and behavior (which I personally am against by the way) Johnson is many heads and shoulders above Trump when it comes to intellectual curiosity, vigor, and learnedness.., Imagine Trump participating in a debate about the classical world!
Imagine Trump participating in a debate full stop.
That said - I can certainly see why the two are seen through the same lens, though they are very different they both occupy positions in the same political movement.
It really does seem to come down to HAIRstyles that gives any credence at all by the mass media to the comparisons.
@@navillus15 Aren't both hairstyles weird, to say the least. Whereas Trump seems to copy the 60s with Elvis, I always wonder why Boris' hair never sees a comb.
Trump - "Nero grabbed that boy by the dick and turned it into a pussy."
Trump - "Ya know they really should've just built a wall. I don't know why they didn't build a wall. Would've solved so many problems if all these ancient countries just built walls."
Trump - "I really relate to the Ancient Egyptians. Nobody knew gold like they did, and trust me I know my gold just look at my casinos, ok, I know my gold."
Trump - "Rome really should've just sent those germanics back - and don't get me wrong many Germanics were fine, decent people, but some of them were rapists, and some of them were pillagers, and some of them were Vandals! If I was Roman Emperor, they would definitely have to go back."
It's unimaginable.
About a document on women’s life in Ancient Rome:
“It would undermine your argument”
“Yeah it’d be nice to have”
The difference between a politician and a historian! Love this.
He was right though. She was trying to say women didn't have much influence but then references the autobiography of a woman that was the de-facto ruler of the Roman Empire for many years.
@@SethTheOrigin if we are to think about it, more works were lost than preserved. Just look at Suetonius, out of 6 books we only have one left, titles like Greek terms of abuse and The History of Famous Whores may never be read by us. A lot of Livy's AUC has also been erased. Tacitus survived in only one manuscript. If Horace had access to thousand of verses be Sappho, we may only read a few fragments.
But what is ultimately crucial to remember in my opinion is that the fall of this civilized glossary didn't come with the Middle Ages, but with the crumbling of the Western Roman Empire during Late Antiquity
Well you don’t see much Roman yoghurt on the shelves. Case closed.
lol hahaha
Pip Pipster 😂😂😂😂😂😂
But I can still shove a gladius in your worthless life . So what is your point
Case closed. On the contrary ! You are using the word closed which is derived from the Latin word clausus and you are commenting on a UA-cam video. The word video is also of Latin/Roman origin.
Case closed. On the contrary ! You are using the word closed which is derived from the Latin word clausus and you are commenting on a UA-cam video. The word video is also of Latin/Roman origin.
It makes me proud to be Greek to listen to the prime minister of the UK, speak with such adoration and passion about our history.... Then I remember that our previous prime minister couldn't even speak English and all the pride is gone.
Most people in England love ancient Greece. Lots of stories for life!
There was a time when even the most humble of us were raised on the stories from Ancient Greece.
You need to be forward thinking. What has gone before doesn't matter, it has passed. All that matters is what is to happen in our future.
@@jacquelinesherlock2274 I believe this is wrong. We can study history to understand human nature which helps us better understand the future.
@@garethwigglesworth8187 To be fair most people in the UK love both Classical Greece and Ancient Rome.
What a wonderful delight! Caught this in Shanghai watching via VPN on UA-cam. Amazing to see the other side of Boris.
I really love when they both become giddy in defending their sides. It's like two passionate kids debating over whether Batman is better than Superman but in a very eloquent manner.
And who invented debating and orators publicly debating contrasted to each other! Greeks! For example Isocrates for Phillip and doathenea against Phillip, or alkiviades for campaign and (don't remembwr name) against campaign.
@@innosanto You are as passionate about the subject as both of them. That's nice.
And Rome is Superman. Greek is Batman because it has plot armor
Roman culture could not have happened if not for Greek development and culture.The Romans themselves were obsessed by anything Greek.
that is 100% true
Why there is so little texts, documents and manuscripts from dark ages era? 500 AD - 1000 AD.
We have rich antique. We have rich middle ages but nothing from dark ages. Why?
@@oldi184 It was too dark.
true, but without Romans that culture probably would not survive till our times...
merseybeat1963
But seriously why? The term dark ages was made in middle ages, I believe in 1300s or 1400s. Indeed we have so little info from that time. Looks like European culture just literally went dark for about 500 years.
I know that the collapse of the Roman empire is to blame but we cant put all the blame on that. For 5 ages Europeans did not created any literature, poems, stories and science or almost any significant documents like people in ancient Rome and Greece did.
BOTH ancient Greece and Rome are what gave birth to modern western civilization. As I usually say greeks planted the seed and romans watered the field.
@Nick Nack so give us for instance info and resources on who invented this kind of architecture, democracy, philosophy, medicine, paved roads, levers, gears, ceramic roofs, geography, geology, biology, psychology, currency, jury system, theatres, drama, comedy, tragedy, sport games (boxing, football, running, spear, wrestling, discus etc), geometry, mathematical and general science reasoning, new methods of astronomy, analog computers, urban watering and sewing systems, water mills, metric devices, pumps etc before the ancient Greeks did. You seem passionate about it. Waiting for specific evidence
@Nick Nack lol, no resources as I imagined. And a few near misses. Stonehedge? lololol I gave you the whole western civilization to explain to me. Is that all you got?
Phoenicians gave us (and to you apparently) some of the actual letters. The language is the same with the Mycenean Greek. The language is what matters, not the letters.
And what's with the periphery argument. First of all that's not true. The innovations were from everywhere that was considered ancient Greece and second of all maybe because periphery was usually away from all the political turmoil between Sparta and Athens, one could think more clearly and invent new things. How about that, since we're in the realm of shitty arguments?
I did speak of new methods in astronomy and didn't claim the architecture of the Pyramids in any way.
Yes football, there has been relative archaeology.
You had to say something for the sake of saying something and you did. My request remains completely unanswered. You haven't learned anything from Plato and Aristotle I guess
@Nick Nack Again never claimed Greeks to be first at everything, not in general architecture, not in general astronomy, not in general writing, not in measuring time etc. What are you smoking, am I not writing in English?
You are demeaning Greeks so much though. That's why I gave you a quest with specific well-known Greek inventions, so that you can prove your conspiracy theory right to us. On these specific things though, which by themselves indicate that we are dealing with the main influencers of the western civilization, not who invented fire and the wheel and the first shelter.
Also I never claimed that Greeks weren't influenced by earlier civilizations, but not to the degree Romans were influenced by the Greeks. I'd say Romans is essentially a …Greek civilization by 90%. In the beginning and in the end (Byzantium). Objectively. Greeks are by no means an Egyptian or a Sumerian civilization. If you can't see that then I give up on you, it's hopeless.
I'm not a linguist, but any linguist in the world will say to you that Linear-B is the precursor to the later Greek language. Again language matters more. If it wasn't the Phoenician letters I'm sure they would have invented some other, even more comprehensible letters. They made sophisticated analog computers, I'm sure they could invent some simpler alphabet.
No, rustic village of Rome did not have jury trials and democratic systems before Athens. Prove it to me that they did. Who said it, in what book.
I put to you a quest to respond, so respond. So far you give me things that I never claimed belonged to Greeks and the few that was in my quest you're plain wrong or confused about. Stay away from drugs or get over that butthurt notion you seem to have for Greeks
Again stop imagining things I haven't said and just give me sources about your claims on the things that were indeed on my list. First jury system, first democracy in Rome and you mentioned medicine at some point. The rest of the things you say I didn't claim. Answer or stfu
@Nick Nack And to completely destroy some of the rest stupid arguments you made.
- Since when Cycladic, Minoan and Myceanean civilizations were Barbarians before the Phoenicians gave them the alphabet? Especially the Minoans were advanced and peaceful. Or have you ever been to ancient Minoan and Mycenean sites to see the ruins? Far from barbaric societies. Of course those civilizations knew how to sail and navigate before the Phoenicians since they colonized & traded off shore and fought pirates.
- You call the first historian in the world a retarded and you say your purpose in not to demean.
- The innovations were equally from the mainland too, not only from the periphery. False premise you got there, followed by a lousy and illogical argument. Greek city states were not ruled by other civilizations during the golden age of innovations. False again
- Yes Rome spread the Greek ideas as Alexander the Great did and now we have western civilization instead of backwards societies. Byzantium/Constantinople helped too although Christian. You say this was a bad thing. How? Are compl. stupid?
- The Phoinician alphabet influenced the Hebrews too, I don't see Hebrew script being the lingua franca of the ancient world. I wonder why
- Linear b gave us the greek language and thus millions of golden literature and valuable text, so it had cultural impact, you're wrong there too. Lets not forget also that itself is if not the first, but one of the first written langs in Europe. Sure it made some big impact in the Bronze age in many sectors
- Unlike your suggestions western philosophy 700 bC and democracy 462bC (with previous reformations from Solon and Klesthenes in 700-600 bC) were born in Greece. Rome had some form of complicated "public" aristocracy system, therefore oligarchy. Western Philosophy was ground breaking & had nothing to do with the earlier works in the east or Egypt
- Jury system in Greece was pretty much fine tuned like today. In Rome it was like big crowds yelling for the "guilty" ones to get thrown into the lions as gladiators. Can't get more barbaric than this.
- Hippocrates was the first to introduce us to modern medicine, describe diseases with details and introduce modern methods for symptomatology, physical findings, surgical treatment and prognosis. Hippocrates was the first documented person to practice cardiothoracic surgery, and his findings are still valid. Earlier eastern or southern medicine and physicians were too primitive, too herbal and often inserting the ideas of supernatural to the table.
- Rest of what you said was misleading because I never claimed superiority or pioneering in all things
This actually gave me a very different opinion on Boris Johnson, he would have made an awesome professor
Boris a smart guy. He was bred for public service.
He had a very weird and outdated view of ancient Greece, feels like he stepped right out of the 1800s
This could only take place in England!
Well yes but this specific show was surely biased by his political nature, i.e. him being representing the Torries, I mean. Surely, surely people voted against him here just because of that and not on the merit of the arguments he made.
He is very well educated.
Europe Civilization is a Greco-Roman birth. Greece gave birth almost on everything, then Romans add their own culture and administration, engineering, technology and spread it through Europe. Thank you G-R (Greeks - Romans)
And National socialist Germany was the resurrection of the collapsing west. They were part of the third in the chain. A.H himself was infatuated with Rome and proclaimed it to be the greatest civilization of antiquity. There are striking similarities and of it being the direct successor to Ancient Rome. As evil as he was, Germany’s loss was a grave mistake
@@freckleheckler6311 The Germans literally claimed that the ancient Greeks looked Germanic but in reality modern Greek Cypriots have the most Mycenean like DNA. The Myceneans were the first Hellenic civilization. Modern mainland Greeks mixed with North Europeans later, Slavs , Balkans etc.
Here's some Eurogenes G25 genetic admixture models of modern people compared to ancient DNA samplea.
BA = Brozne Age, IA = Iron age and EMA = Early Medieval.
Target: Greek_Cypriot
Distance: 1.0053%
40.0 Greek_Mycenaean_BA
33.4 Levant_BA
26.6 Anatolia_BA
Target: Turk_Cypriot
Distance: 1.8445%
34.0 Levant_BA
33.4 Greek_Mycenaean_BA
22.4 Anatolia_BA
5.2 BedouinA_Arab_North_Modern
3.0 Early_Slav_EMA
2.0 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 1.0228%
29.0 Greece_North_BA
25.6 Early_Slav_EMA
22.8 Balkan_BA_IA
11.4 Anatolia_BA
11.2 Levant_BA
Target: Greek_Thessaly (2 Models average)
49,0 Greece_North_BA
29,2 Balkan_BA_IA
13,9 Levant_BA
7,9 Early_Slav_EMA
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.0118%
34.6 Balkan_BA_IA
34.6 Greece_North_BA
19.8 Levant_BA
11.0 Early_Slav_EMA
Target: Greek_Crete
Distance: 0.8487%
36.4 Greece_North_BA
23.0 Levant_BA
18.8 Anatolia_BA
13.8 Balkan_BA_IA
4.0 Early_Slav_EMA
3.4 Greek_Mycenaean_BA
0.6 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.0086%
31.2 Anatolia_BA
24.2 Greece_North_BA
18.4 Balkan_BA_IA
18.0 Levant_BA
4.8 Greek_Mycenaean_BA
3.4 Turkic_West_and_Ottoman
@@randomstuff1315 The germans also tried to appropriate the title of roman citizens from us by creating a huge potato looking papal state called the holy roman empire. After they were unsuccessful to convince anybody that their Unholy Unroman feudality inc. was a legitimate successor of the roman empire, they renamed us 'byzantium' to undermine us and the 1000 years during which the eastern roman empire was kicking their ass.
The first hellenic civilization BTW was the minoan about 2000 b.c.
@@user-oz3vl4xd1k "unholy unroman" i love it, i also used that before.
"The first hellenic civilization BTW was the minoan about 2000 b.c."
The Minoans were not Hellenes, they did not speak a Hellenic language and did not descend from Greeks. But the Mycenaeans were highly influenced by Minoan civilization.
The Mycenaeans had around 30% Proto-Greek ancestry as you can see below in the admixture model and 50% ancestry from a Pre-Hellenic population of Greece that was similar genetically to the Minoans.
Basically Proto-Greek + Pelasgian = Mycenaean.
Target: *Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc*
Distance: 2.6540%
*53.6* Minoan_Lassithi_2400-1700BC
*31.6* Logkas_Thessaly_2600-2000bc( *Proto-Greek* )
*14.8* Anatolia_Ikiztepe_LC_3100bc
And then Britain added Shakespeare, Parliamentary democracy. Magna Carta, the Industrial Revolution and spread that and much more around the world
Had no idea,that Mr Johnson Is so charismatic AND deeply educated,wish him and to all British people a prosperous future....greetings from Greece
He is neither deeply educated nor is he charismatic. He just had a wealthy privileged background and a public school education which equipped him with the right tools (mostly linguistic and in terms of attitude and comportment) to appear learned and clever. Please do not feel flattered as a Greek, he has been indoctrinated to use culture and knowledge as a tool for his elitist agenda. He does not care the least about his own people let alone modern Greeks.And that goes for most members of the English upper class.
@@alkibiadespapaparaskevopou8278 based on what I saw here (video) yes he is charismatic. Given to the fact that "Charisma" is a Greek word,any effort to translate it has to take in mind it's very etimological (another Greek word) value. In other words,knowing the "classics" is something that makes a man "complete", in a sense that there is where someone can get a full knowledge about himself and the world around him. And please make no mistake, I'm not saying all this because I'm Greek as you say. I just aware of the importance that "classic Greek" education is having on shaping minds and societies. You see,the very spirit of what we consider as "classics" represents the very heart of what we name Western values. On a personal basis, (another Greek word) have you ever wondered why in all upper class educational institutes being in UK,USA,Switzerland,France the knowledge of "classics" considered of great importance? Is just because and I'm telling you that with full knowledge that there's no world company out there who's going to entrust a leading post to someone who lacks that kind of educational training. At the end the high class in all Western world knows that "Classics" is an indispensable part of a leaders training. If you want to find the answer you have to read the "Greeks" they used to be (some) homosexuals but very moral public figures, they knew the importance of a well balanced life ,and considered a balanced life as a key to a happy life. Their morality probably was quite eclectic as they didn't consider all equals (is there a strong base to believe so,apart of equally respecting everyone?). At the end yes I do believe that Mr Johnson is going to be a great leader for Britain, because his visions are based on the convictions of a past that always repeat itself, and just because of this he sees more than the most...par example he knows that Britain will be better off away from EU, he knows that such kind of bureocratic experiments don't last,and more importantly they do not produce solutions .He knows the gate of Athenian "Amfictionies" (Confederacy) and he has all necessary convictions. On the other hand I'm waiting nothing as a Greek by Mr Johnshon, my only true expectation is that Mr Johnshon will recover Western values in the UK ,by limiting the unquestioned cultural "invasion" that all Europe suffering from. At the end if I sounded kind as a promoter of all things Greek, please forgive me, that was not my intention ,being Greek is just a game of fortune and in many ways can be seen as an accident, just because I'm not emotionally blind. I'm sure that the ones here who had the opportunity to know the meaning of "Classics" and what that represents to all of the west,they know what I'm talking about. In one point of your response you pointed something like : Boris is only linguistically trained . Let me remind you that this skill is of a high importance specially for a public figure,because define and articulate are important and indispensable parts of a greater planning . Be sure That these ancient attitudes still work today too.Merry Christmas to everyone!
@@arsadams Mr Katsonis I am impressed you took the time to write this in reply to my comment. As a fellow Greek who has studied classics and archaeology both in Greece and in London, I am fully aware of the value and weight of classical culture. I have actually played my own part in promoting the necessity of introducing ancient Greek and Latin as subjects in secondary education in the UK. However, having taught classics, and having spent time in Academia I am well aware of which aspects of classical culture interest the educational system in the UK as well as in the US. Cherry picking from the moments of perceived glory of Athenian democracy or Imperial Rome or even seriously studying ancient history does not guarantee necessarily an improvement of character or a cultivation of moral values. The most important lessons from classical antiquity come from the precarious balance between logic and passion, as expressed primarily in poetry and drama; in the contradictions of democracy at the height of its glory; in the presocratic philosophers' attempt to grasp what lies beneath the surface of perceptually apprehensible reality and first pointing at the relation between the macrocosm and the microcosm; in the artists' attempts to represent the unrepresentable, to materialise the immaterial with an unsurpassed economy of means and a serene simplicity that transposes the particular into the universal.... Ergo, we need to get rid of the tradition of approaching classical and pre-classical antiquity through the interpretations of the Renaissance or the Romantic period, (or, even worse the Victorians). When it is the colonial edifice and project that have provided both the lens through which we see antiquity, and the clumsily crystallised fragments of knowledge the so called 'well educated' have access to, we do not protect western culture from the barbarians that lurk outside the gates. We join them in demolishing the walls ourselves.
@J. Harris. Privilege enhances intelligence. However, It also masks slyness, cunning, over-inflated self-importance and ruthless ambition behind the shiny veneer of wit. A very expensive veneer indeed.
@@alkibiadespapaparaskevopou8278 Your bitterness is clear for all to see.
The most amusing debate over Brexit/EU I've seen yet.
Someone got it...
But the election results didn't match this audience's results. Thank Goodness!
treybie1 well it is television lol... can’t have everything!
This was quite a bit before the brexit vote
@@weazyweaz1 Ancient Rome was actually a long time ago
As an Italian I can say without a doubt that both cultures were equally important for the formation of the Western World 🇮🇹❤🇬🇷
also Berlusconi he invent the Bunga-Bunga party, which are very influential
I don't care about "the Western world," tbh. Gimme the Germanic people: Anglos, Saxons, Scandinavians (Swedes, Danes etc,) not all this "Western" BS. The best democracies are of Germanic origins. Common law > Continental law. The best version of Christianity (Protestantism) is a movement of the Czech, Englishers, Germans, the Dutch, and later, of the North American colonists of English, German, Dutch, Scandinavian origin.
They weren’t separate cultures
As a Greek, I agree!!
What an excellent debate from two passionate and very knowledgeable speakers! I just didn't want it to finish. Congratulations to both!
The Greeks win hands down for humanities but Rome won everything by the sword.
Except from Roman law
@@Loostyc roman laws are still in use today! I Codicci Romani
@@redwine2664 democracy and philosophy and Olympic games and theatre and Pythagorean geometry and geography and medicine though all Greek, still in use today. And all that took 1000 years to be rediscovered by the westerners
Rome also won with the word, let's not forget that. This comment section is by far a 'Pyrrhic' victory with Latin alphabet use.
You didn’t hear the whole lecture, I think
I came, I saw, I enjoyed it.
I came, i saw, i came
lol
vini, vidi, ego fruendum eam
doesn't sound as cool.
Known history contest fun for sure.
@@naerua9267 I came, I saw, I came again.
Macedonian Greeks were the Hells Angel's of ancient Greece but neither mentioned by Boris Johnson or Mary beard..
This was really cool, the only problem I had is that Mary really had to fight to get a word in, the others would speak for 20 seconds or so unimpeded, but the moment Mary began speaking they would talk over her. If it was just once or twice, it wouldn't have been a big deal, but it was essentially every time she tried to respond to a question or argument .
Other way round!!
Completely NOT TRUE. What were you watching?
It's the difference in occupation: she's a professor, and he's a politician. One is all about calm study and finding truth, the other is about trying to get an opinion across a bunch of screaming MPs.
Typical steamroll over the woman but Dame Mary Beard will not tolerate. The moderator was incorrect in the introduction, Boris needed to fear being on the same debate stage as Dame Mary. Good for her!
It's because she is a woman
The Boris Johnson one looks quite clever, he should run for Prime Minister or something.
tssst good one chippah
It'll never happen
No he bloody well shouldn’t
He’s Prime Minister now lol😂
Titus Tatius, no shit!
There is no perfect society. But we admire the first society in human history that critically and freely reflected on its own pathologies.
Well said, so what that it was just Athens and then just a few hundred years? It was 2500 years ago, yet most of the humans who lived since have not reached that level of civilization yet...
Get well soon Boris, Harold Baldr , sent me here
Hahaha legend
Same here
Me too. Get well soon Boris :)
because you said that all of you I had to go and check out Harald and now Im a fan of his too lol
Boris was never ill.
Boris holds his own here for the most part considering Mary has devoted her life to these subjects.
And so has boris, boris studied classics at oxford university and continues to be fascinated by it.
@@evang2881 he only has a Bachelors. Beard god her PhD in the early 80s and has been teaching at Cambridge since 2004.
@@evang2881 There is a honeymoon snapshot of Boris which is of great interest: rather than the typical romantic/touristy photo, he's sitting on a bench reading a red-covered (ie Latin) Loeb... And Mary was already a Fellow of Newnham, Cambridge at least by 1998.
Well, Boris treated it like a political debate and often doesn't allow Mary to speak. But I liked Boris better after seeing this debate.
@@joshuawaring4180 And still lost.
This is one of the best videos I have seen for a long time
me too
Mary Beard v. Boris Johnson! And the winner is....US! Thank you both for a wonderful evening!!
What an unexpected treat! Watching from Wyoming-Thank You!🙋🏼♀️
The Greek influence on Rome is undeniable. Even the Romans acknowledged that their culture borrowed heavily from the Greeks and became more sophisticated as a result. In reference to Rome's conquest of Greece in the 2nd century BCE, the Roman poet Horace wrote that "Captive Greece took captive her savage conqueror and brought the arts to rustic Latium."
Perhaps the most famous Roman, Julius Caesar, saw Greece as an important cultural and political model for Rome. Caesar used the Greek general, Alexander the Great, as an inspiration for how he would lead Rome's army and government.
This was fantastically good. I don't know much about Boris, but based on this presentation the UK is lucky to have him as Prime Minister. This man has a deep understanding of Western Values and History.
I don't think I've ever laughed harder in my life.
Well, he studied all these things in Eton
@@paratrooper6 Well if you did its possibly because you are an ignorant moron. Just suggesting. You people laugh at intelligence because you do not understand the points being made and so attack the person not the argument. Its what Remainers have done for 3 1/2 years and Boris took barely 6 months to defeat them.
Name me one other Prime Minister or President that could open a debate as Johnson did ...
@@1chish Well to be fair intellect itself does not reflect on thinking for the people and not just self-interest, now obliviously intelligent people are more reasonable but it is the combination of intellect and good character that makes a good leader
@@recipeacefoodialogue4915 Very true but as Prime Minister you need a good intellect to understand and then work out solutions to all the issues that crop up every day. And while good character can be a bonus I would say conviction is a better trait. Thatcher had conviction and intellect in abundance but I am sure also she could be pretty mean to anyone who crossed her. But I am also aware of her huge personal generosity. Others will just call her an appalling woman ..
This was a random find that I was completely unaware of and I've thoroughly enjoyed it! 👍
I tend to think of it as Greece being the "inspiration", and Rome being the "implementation". One without the other is not terribly impactful...they produce much better results together.
Rome is not the implementation. It was mostly a degradation.
Greece was not presented well because it was Athenocentric.
The combination with Ptolemies Alexandria, or Miletus, or Syracuse, together with Athens would show how much of a difference there was.
Rome was great in construction, infrastructure, legal system,
But literally most other things, greatest advances in geometry, the first hydraulic mechanism, first hydraulic machines, first land line of boats,((diolkos), first tunnel of big length by stating from both sides if mountain to meet in center(Thales tunnel), modern urban planning (ippodamean system of Miletus), first calculation of the circumference of the world (very precise) ( and assumption that is round as well,), first theory that sun is not a god but object, first organized benefits for citizens and benefits for all, first public healthcare system, in fact the founder of scientific medicine, best avcoustics of Odeon's whose acoustics were not matched, first integral computations from Archimedes, or use of science of ratios analysed scientifically in their aesthetics and used in constructions, for first leagues and fwderations of many states to discuss matters such as the Hellenic league, the Delphi discussions etc, and onstitutions with many states to have to abide by such as the Olympics which forced the stop of all military acts between all states, which are examples of the modern multistage institutions, first examples of political systems with equilibrium bodies ,(Sparta where the 2 kings, the apella, the assembly, and the ephors were in equilibrium for stability, which actually made Sparta very very stable for many years contrary to the point of the unstable states), with even Roman period greats many either being Greek or being Greek educated by studying in Athens., First Google in the library of Alexandria ( every book from every shop entering copied and copy held in library for accumulation and study, first university for many subjects, first hydraulic instrent like the church organ (hyfraulis), first analog computer (antikithera mechanism,), first expression of atpmic theory. and Indoor plumbing existed in Athens. Difference is overwellming.
Romans are really great just no comparison Vs the other.
@@innosanto I think in relating all the "firsts" of ancient Greece, we are actually sort of in agreement. For me a "first" (an invention or innovation) is the fruit of "inspiration". Why I consider Rome to have more a spirit of implementation is that they seemed to readily borrow the "firsts" of other lands, and systematize their use at scale in new ways. For example, while they did borrow plumbing technology developed elsewhere, they used it to develop large systems of public bath houses and clean, public water fountains.. making something that might have been only accessible to the wealthy before, accessible to all. While the Romans didn't invent the notion of the library, they did democratize them. Early libraries were very rarely lending libraries and mostly accessible only to scholars / the elite. Rome developed public library systems (and had about 28 in the city itself at one point) domestically, and through the empire. We know the Romans owe a lot to their Etruscan forbears when it comes to road technology, but the Romans systematized the construction of high quality roads from Britain to the Tigris. Of course the roads greatly facilitated the transport of their army, but the Twelve Tables also demanded that the government build public roads and maintain public waystations (not that they were always free of charge, mind you). While the Greeks no doubt made many original contributions to medicine, they did not really have any public provisions for it. The Roman government on the other hand used senate funds to construct public hospitals (there is no record of anyone ever being charged for services at the Aesculapium, Rome' first public hospital). They also seemed to have subsidized the services of doctors not working out of the official public hospitals, so that they would also treat the poor.
@@DivineHellas
This is the first time I have encountered anyone seemingly maintain that there were really no important distinctions between the civilization that emerged in Italy in the 8th century BC, and that that emerged at a similar time in Archaic Greece. At least, it's certainly not something that is typically taught when you take the survey courses on the history of western art.
Yes, we all know that there were a collection of city-states which had differences, but there were enough unifying characteristics that we can on UA-cam comments colloquially refer to them as Ancient Greece (I mean, Herodotus even noted that they shared "the same stock and the same speech, our shared temples of the gods and religious rituals, our similar customs,” and the city-states did themselves find they had enough in common that they would do well to unify against Persian threats).
Sorry, but your comment just comes off as incredibly...pedantic.
Mary touch on the fact that without the Roman Empire that lasted for over a thousand years and included most of the known Western World at that time (and their admiration of the Greeks), the Greek civilization's contributions to the Western World would be severely limited.
@@innosanto You know Romans built Rome on their own and other countless cities right. Greece had amazing philosophers artists and more, but it's a legit island compared to Rome. You cannot say "we thought these things in a miniscule place so we're the best", you did it in Greece only. Western Civilization Greece helped, not secured. You didn't conquer all of Europe while barbarians were sitting in huts. You stood in your island. Without Rome humanity would still be in the middle ages. You contributed, without Rome nothing would've happened. This is what happened, end of story, there's no fighting, both are important, but one is what actually got Greece to help, because if Rome didn't exist, Greece would've been nothing and whatever you guys thought would've been burnt by random barbarians coming through.
Don't fight over Rome and Greece. This is just a funny debate. We're brothers, not superiors. It's Greco-Roman Heritage, not Greece Heritage or Roman Heritage for a reason. Use your head.
As a Greek myself, who has attended the Greek education system, which teaches children ancient Greek and Latin and classical Greece and Rome's histories, I am stunned on how accurately they both discuss on these matters. I suggest that you, the rest of the West, should put both the ancient Greek and the Latin language and the respective histories of each of these cultures in your education systems' curriculi.
And these speeches on behalf of the actors in Boris Johnson's speech were taught to us thoroughly in the 11th grade.
We get taught more about Greek and Roman history as well as Viking’s and Normans than we do about the British Empire. If anything it shouldn’t be taught to primary school pupils until they learn about the colonialism that built the Western World.
@@francisa7567 Shut up for "muh colonialism". Don't drench children with guilt ffs.
@@Pan472 Why not? Theirs a clear distinction between countries that were ruled by foreign powers and countries that are currently third world nations. From the USSR to the French empire every developing nation is a former colony of a current world power. Being dismissive about history is the first step in repeating it. Our youths should be taught relevant history in order to understand the economic divide on planet earth. Africa is a beautiful example of land cut up to fuel European wealth, children need to know why, instead of learning that Africa is the place where people starve and water is absent. South American countries don’t even speak their own native languages anymore due to the foreign invasions and instead we shun modern history to spotlight the works of the Greeks and Romans who would’ve detested the works of us in the modern era. I’m all for it international education but I’m extremely against selective education.
@@francisa7567
You mention, however, only South Americans as people who no longer speak their natives languages. What about British North America. Do they speak their native languages?, is there any significant proportion of natives in its population to speak something at all?
Is Ancient Greek at all intelligible to the modern ear?
To think that people compare this bloke to Donald Trump.
Charlie green eyed monsters the lot of them
Boris has more intellect. In his Toe nail clippings . Then Trump has in his entire. Toupee covered bonce ;)
JONNOG88 nope
Trump is a thick we know that, Boris just pretends he is but then so did Churchill.
"Donald Trump with a thesaurus."
The Mayor of London quoting the Iliad in Greek! Unbelievable! (While American students moan, "do we have to know that?")
John Lenz so true! This makes me want to move to England where true intellectuals are. America glorifies false media and the Kardashians. A few geniuses in a country full of stupid people. Honestly America reminds me of Rome. While Britain reminds me of Athens
As a Greek, the quoting was really really bad. Props for memorising it though.
@@dimalex8 ancient greek is different from modern greek... That's like if someone quoted chaucer and i said their english was bad .... If chauchers english was like 2100 years older than it already is
@@mesidonaa The fact is we don't know. There's this theory that Johnson is pronouncing it correctly, but in my opinion its biased, it sounds just like an english pronunciation of Greek. Ancient Greek in reality was much harsher and more guttural in my opinion.
That private schooling has to pay for something.
Churchill likened the British empire to Greece and the USA to Rome.
That is poetic because it's really true. As the Romans replicated large aspects their culture from the Greeks likewise did the USA from the UK.
agree
I choose the Byzantine Empire, both Roman and Greek ;)
It would be Hot dogs vs hamburgers...
The Byzantine empire was the worst of both mashed together into a state that was held together with optimism
@@adamrules01 and survived for a millennium. Clearly it is the worst state in existence
@@adamrules01 They were doing pretty well until Justinian plague
🤣🤣🤣😂🤣😅😂🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Never knew Boris Johnson had such a brilliant historical mind. Thanks for enlightening this American.
Michael Pellegrini this is in the hall across the road from the houses of parliament you idiot
+ squat ... So ... ? What am I missing? My comment was meant to be a sincere compliment. Sorry if you took it wrong.
You'd only know he was Trump-esque moron without looking into him yourself.
You could enlighten an American with a match.
@@notinterested3618 sounds like you could use some enlightening yourself. Hurr durr all 300 million plus Americans are so dumb lol lol hurr de durr
I played Lego vs Playmobil with my son, the debate became wild, tough and deeply emotional.
:)
Lego!
Definitely PLAYMOBILf! More scope for vicarious LIVING! Lego - just for engineering.
PLAYMOBIL! They have different skin colours/Historic Set's and everyone's not yellow!
@@jpstapylton ANd you an cheerily shove the pegs into the round holes and stick them all together into a complete mess.
neglesaks I'm glad we agree! I ride with team PLAYMOBIL all the way!
It's a well known fact
that Romans studied extensively the ancient
Greeks...
Greece won culturally (and by a distance). Rome won militarily (and by a distance).
Speaking as a retired teacher, Boris Johnson is a natural educator!
Exactly!
This is why he is able to sell his lies so well.
@@tilley6351 Some can't stop coming with their political views on a video that is about Greeks and Romans.
@@fuguthefish What better place to talk about politics?
@@Falcrist Idk, maybe a video about politics?
Mary Beard citing the Edict of Caracalla as the moment when citizenship was given to all free people within the borders, despite Caracalla perhaps being Rome's most evil emperor and that he gave citizenship to increase his tax base to fund the explicit military junta of the Severan Dynasty!
Septimius Severus to his sons, Geta and the aforementioned Caracalla, "Be harmonious with eachother, enrich the soldiers and scorn all other men. " Caracalla disregarded the harmonious point by having his brother assassinated at a dinner with their mother but he followed the final two points...
True. But Septimius Severus was also a despot.
@Fernando Cunha From Leptis Magna, and they were brown skinned. But Alexander Severus was more pro Aristocracy.
@Fernando Cunha Moor is the term adopted to describe the people of North Africa colonized by the Arabs during the Islamic Conquests, it would be a little more accurate to adopt the term Berber or the indigenous name Tamazight.
@Fernando Cunha It's a term mostly reserved for Muslims living the Mahgreb, Iberia, Sicily, and Malta. But there's a document that can explain it a little better than I. (Richard A Fletcher, Moorish Spain (University of California Press, 2006), pp.1,19.)
"and they were brown skinned" Says who? Even if they were actual natives those are perhaps on average a shade darker at most than people on the other side of the sea. At least in coastal areas that Rome controlled. It's possible, I guess, but not particularly likely.
Great debate, good fun. Enjoyed this more than any movie I've seen in years.
She managed to dismiss philosophy, science, theater, athletics, democracy and voting, etc,
And to dismiss massacre of Christians, crusifictions, massacres of Gauls, massacre and destruction of the whole Carthage civilization, the gladiator killings etc with "Milos!"
With a general idea about realism, liberte, and citizenship, (when citizens would not even vote for governance, so were not citizens), haha , magnificent work.
About women, they were most free in Sparta which was superficially dismissed by her, as was dismissed the fact that American constitution had largely the Spartan political system as a role model of having equilibrium through juxtaposed political bodies.
Good work with regard to a debate.
Greeks did it all first, Romans spread it and made it the lasting foundation of the modern west. Creation or promulgation, whichever you consider to be more important is the one who wins the debate.
jkelsey55 greeks were creatores of civilizations, romans were creatores of empires.
Actually the Persians had a civilisation before the Greeks were an ethnic group....
All we know of Greece is what Rome decided was worthy. So we only have by their judgement the good bits. While Rome we have the entirety as a culture they eclipsed them.
@@jorgegomez524 Greece was the creator of democratic values.
Sepehr Voshmgir
Look up Minoan & Cycladic Civilizations. Also look up Proto-Sesklo Culture.... Enjoy
Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, so what did the Romans ever do for us, well introduce us to Greek Culture.
Not true at all.
Brilliant and succinct!!!
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
@@dennisjonsson3606 medicine, education, wine, water system were all introduced by the Greeks. The Minoans, one of the most ancient civilizations in the world had their own water system. There would be no Roman Empire without Greece. Romans had no culture on their own. They developed theirs after interacting with the Greeks. To put Rome above Greece is as absurd as saying that Rome had no impact on Western Civilization as well.
@@dennisjonsson3606 those things existed before rome ever became a dominant power in the mediterrenean
"The Romans gave us the Greeks"? How dare you say that. The Greeks gave us everything we have
Follow the quote and it's true. Romans PRESERVED the Greeks, otherwise, they'd be another lost people. Most of the writings are from Romans.
I’m dreaming of having a Classical Studies degree from a school where these two are the professors! I’d be the smartest and happiest barista that Starbucks ever had!
Touche for the practical touch!
Barrister
@@BossySwan I’d have a degree in Classical Studies; not Law. Sic transit gloria mundi!
Well, one of them became Prime Minister. Classics is not as useless as you make it out to be.
FIGHT WITH WORDS FOR OUR AMUSEMENT!
Ouf ! This was the most spirited and enjoyable debate of my whole life. !
2021: *Pfizer vs AstraZeneca*
🤣🤣🤣
AstraZenecas suspected product is actually an Oxford laboratory result that went to proction by AstraZeneca
Vs johnson and johnson
@@prosamgg2177 Johnson vs. Johnson
The Ancient Greeks created the most important, lasting and influential cultural and intellectual flowering, even revolution, in human history. The Roman added a lot to what was basically their wholesale adoption of Greek culture, but not nearly as much that was as original, creative and unique as the Greeks had. They Ancient Greeks gave much credit to their primary influences, the Ancient Near East and Egyptian civilizations.
Imagine if this version of Boris Johnson becomes our Prime Minister, PMQs will be transcended into a transcendental, philosophical, beguiling, whimsical parley.
He will at this rate!
Downlink
he is , ffs
Michael Mkpadi am blaming you for this f up , you most of done jui jui to get bumbling BoJo the clown into the big chair , it’s just a pity the chair isn’t electric
Time will tell right ?
Wow. This aged nicely, like Roman fish sauce
I love Mary. I had the privilege of attending her Ancient Rome lectures at Sydney University when I was doing my Masters on the Ancient near East. Very healthy sense of humour and knows her stuff
The debate adversarial approach has the same weakness as our trial system - it puts the parties in opposition, which encourages them to selectively ignore facts. Truth, which is nuanced, is sacrificed for entertainment.
Find me a world leader that has his charm and knowledge.
🇬🇧 Proud to be british with him as our leader 🇬🇧
That was incredible. Loved every second of this.
As a Roman:
" The victors with weapons ( the Romans) were culturally conquered by the defeated ( the Greeks).
Grecia capta ferum victorem cepit.......
Orazio wrote that, a Roman poet.
@@nicolaskottis5245 He's correct
UK, Greece, Rome, France, Berlin, Ghent. Europe is a cradle of Ethics, Civilization, literature, arts, philosophy, science and of course politics. Thanking IQ for an another epic.
Thank you for this. Fascinating debate.
Wish you could include subtitles for hearing impaired people.
Turn the volume up!
can't you read lips?
Wot
Fuck these replies, seriously. If they don’t provide subtitles, hopefully the auto-subtitling will get good enough soon.
Android's auto subtitleing is very good
it really should be renamed Athens vs Rome
true he never mentioned Sparta, Corinth, Macedon all of which were monarchies and brutal ones of that.
@@Michaelmouse23 the problem is that the other greek cities and kingdoms didn't wrote some much as the athenians.
@@spemo1 I think Ioanian colonies and Syracuse both overlooked . HE could have mentioned them but yeah when we think about Classical Greece we mostly think about Pericles, Socrates, Aristotle, Plato etc not much is known from other Greek states.
@@Michaelmouse23 I totally agree
@@spemo1 what do you make of Christian Greece? After the arrival of the religion do you think Greece as an intellectual region ceased to exist?
I'm only half way through, but what an incredible video this is. Thank you for sharing.
Imagine how many people get sat next to Mary Beard on flights and have no idea they could be having the most fascinating conversation of their life.
Oh sooo true!!
UA-cam has been recommending I watch this for weeks. Glad I finally decided to give it a go. Great performances on both sides!
very interesting and I really enjoyed this. Love listening to intelligent exchanges. Not enough of this on YT. Thank you for posting.
Excellent!! This is a really interesting video. Both sides presented their cases extremely well. Great!
As an American who eschewed the news decades ago unless it's satirical or comedic, especially that of the British variety, my previous view of Boris Johnson has changed entirely. I'm glad I came upon this debate, thank you 🙏
What a great debate, I could listen to these two nattering all day.
"A Roman Wilderness of Pain"...Jim Morrison
A great debate... Boris Johnson is an amazing speaker, he really raised his points in favour of the Classical Greek Civilization over the Romans.
I think the point was the Romans did it better (they still suck by our standards).
Athens even during the democracy only non-slave natural born Athenians could participate, and you often had the similar meltdown of what was essentially democratic meltdown to authoritarian like behavior similar to the French Terror.
But to the point, which would be more hospitable:
1) Excluding Sparta, women would need to wear a vale when in public, and could not be near males in public similar to some Middle Eastern nations today.
2) It was extremely rare for a slave in Athens or any other city state to gain liberty, to no longer be a slave. Rome, it was customary and became customary to grant slaves their liberty.
3) Rome pushed for better civics and practical technological utilities like sewers, aqueducts, machinery for production of various goods and services like bakery, mills, olive oil production, etc.
4) Romans were more inclusive (of course in a subtle we still have to make that foreign thing into a Roman way of doing things too, where Athens just assumed other foreign methods were just barbarian ways, Sparta of course was the epitome of xenophobia as it was necessary to keep their weird concentration camp economy of Helot slaves vs Spartan slave master.
While Athens invention of democracy is inspiring for us today, it's effectiveness in the way they used it demonstrated the need for constitutions that protect minorities and protect against mass panic induced bad law or suspension of various law like habeas corpus.
Rome would be better to live in and provided much more in advancing civilization philosophically and technologically. The Greek city states, in particular Athens and the short period of the life of Alexander the Great's conquest... we got theater. We got the concept that government should be of and for and by the people; self government by majority rule; instead of hokey myths of an oligarchical set of families with tales of them being born of some divinity thus their excuse they they themselves should rule for the betterment first and foremost for their own families and it will just magically trickle down to the benefit of the rest of the people living in that government.
They both were rotten compared to our standards, but to have advances in technology and sciences Rome did more in advancing them then the shorter period the Greek city states. I think Rome being essentially a band of misfits enjoyed the variety that was the Greek city states; hence the preservation of "Greek" culture by the Romans.
It is in our time that we merge democracy with republic, and have been doing so with positive effects and growing technological and moral advances.
The next step is to merge social-capital into a social-capital-democratic economic structure. With policies like Germany's co-determination policies that put 50% of the board are workers voted by workers. And concepts of co-op enterprises of which all employees have one vote to all aspects of the operation of the business. As well as a concept capital formation method being a Federal Reserve Co-Op Bank similar to National Reserve Banks of most countries that currently lend to private banks at a discounted rate to ensure their banking system is liquid; you could do the same for such co-ops to gain capital formation. Reducing the reliance on an aristocracy which throughout human history often act as do nothing parasites, that eventually capture whatever government that exists whenever it suits them.
@@jmitterii2 Some sources for anyone interested in the subject (that can easily be googled) say up to 500,000 people died in the Roman Colloseum (the Flavian Amphitheatre) over a period of 400 years, if we add the other deaths from across the vast empire in different "entertainment" arenas we are then looking at much higher figures.
IMO, yes Rome acted as a great repository of Greek culture and greatly, greatly improved on it in most areas - Civil Engineering, Agriculture, Medicine, Marine Navigation, War Strategy, Law, Politics, Housing and Public Administration. Where the Greeks gave us the Great Philosophers the Romans gave us Stoicism equal and much more practical in every way. Maybe they the Romans did the same in depravity as well, they got the worst bits of Greek culture and went on to increase it exponentially in their own civilization.
And thanks a million for that very insightful and educational reply I'm learning new things here and greatly appreciate it.
If the Macedonian Greek army had lost the wars against Persia. Classical Greece and Rome's history and maybe even todays Europe could have been a very different place..
No one could ever destroy friendship between italians and greeks.....we are cousins with french, but brothers with greeks
What would Britain be, a delinquent nephew nobody talks about?
@@mrh9635 britain who? Is the same country we teached writing , while we were building the pantheom or the colosseum and in the meanwhile they were living in houses made with grass and animals escrements?
@@michelefavaron8451 I think they deserve a bit more credit than that.
Fabulous. Two charismatic, intellectual and entertaining speakers. Both gave convincing presentations...
It's reaaaaally nice being half Italian and half Greek x)
You are lucky! :o)
The best mix in the world.
got any sisters - cousins?
Alex Seferiades you got some cousins, sisters?
@@machinakos what?? LOL
Most thoughts have been thought before. A lot can be learnt from the classics.... It should be a staple of modern education, not reserved for elite schools.
My old Classics Head of Department went out of her way to try and put a lie to the notion that Classics was an 'elitist' subject. There was an 'advertising' film of my alma mater, where she makes a 'big thing' of the subject's alleged elitism being totally false.
It is so sad, that now both civilizations are almost extinct from secondary schools. And learning grammatically the language is not the important part. Learning the meaning of the texts , that should be studied.
The issue isn't that classics are somehow geared for the elite. The issue is that non-elite schools aren't designed to create thinkers. They're designed to create workers.
Reading Cicero or Plato won't help you get your TPS report submitted on time, so the non-elite schools don't bother.
Without Greece , there is no Rome. It's as simple as that. Greece is Romes mother but with a hell of a lot more Class. Hands down its Greece. There shouldn't have even been a debate.
Other way around. Rome preserved them. If it wasn't for Rome it is unlikely anything of Hellenistic Greek would have survived. Would have been destroyed by other invading parties.
@@theteamranbir ohh I absolutely agree, Greece passed the torch. The Romans stood on the shoulders of giants and continued the culture. That's why they shouldn't debate on who was the best , the debate should have been how they both influenced the world. Ultimately there's always a rise and fall of great civilisations. It happened to Greece, then Rome and Great Britain.
Why don't we have these kind of debates in the USA? Are we well less trained? Perhaps, if we don't study the classics.
because your not European maybe?
@@lewistaylor2858 It would take a lot of time, first you would have to explain that these were not imaginary lands like Gotham city, then help them see where on the map they are located, and then explain different details such as "they did not have cable-tv" or "nike was a goddess and not a sneaker seller" etc etc....
JasTheKariol Brilliant😂
@@JasTheKariol you win the internet
@@lewistaylor2858 This, sadly, is not a European thing but distinctly British. I would love to see events like this on the continent.
Boris' first speech was brilliant ...
@James Tea Church its a debate
@James Tea Church Free market isn't buying your nonsense
@James Tea Church yeah, your supposed to try and win in a debate, as in say only the positives and fight the corner.
Should have been billed Globalist v. Nationalist with Classical flourish.
@James D Robertson If McDonald's are substandard you are perfectly free to choose a Burger King School. In a government school the students learn to be like you.
33:40 AHAAHAHAH just goes to show, it was a fun overexaggeration, Rome and Greece were both Fundamental and should never be put to comparison :)
Greco-Roman Heritage, Not Roman Heritage or Greek Heritage. Together, or no western civ. :)
But what an AMAZING debate. Thank YOU to the British, as an Italian, for doing this. The respecting of time and the relaxed ambience of the debate was amazing to watch, and i will link this video to anyone interested. Incredible job! :)
Two brilliant and engaging speeches
This was SO MUCH FUN!
It's the Greeks, always. It begins with them, the rise of the individual. Rome is great but Greece is megas
The roman libertas was actually surprisingly similar to human rughts, with garanteed property rights, garanted free trade and free speech, much more so than athenes, so the roman were actually quite free, till the civil war and economic collapse of the first century bc.
A fine illustration of a key defect in English culture: forelock-tugging subservience and deference to posh nobs. Johnson speaks in the most general, evidence-free terms and everyone swoons at his "learning" and ability to "hold his own" with an actual professor of classics.
Tip: If YOU can't tell that he's hopelessly outclassed, that's simply b/c YOU know too little of the subject area to be able to distinguish an expert academic from an expert conman and impersonator.
Though I agree with Boris being hopelessly outclassed, I believe it to be a fine example of English culture: that the political class in Britain actually considers a public debate , on an academic topic, with an academic expert worthwhile to engage in. That is rare. I am an Indian and I know only two other such examples, Shashi Tharoor of India and Malcolm Turnbull of Australia, and they both are Britain educated. It is definitely a sign of intellectual curiosity which should be celebrated, espcially of those in the dirty business of politics.
What a pleasure to listen to these giants of intelect!
Finally, thank you! (:
It's kinda silly hypothetical question to begin with, comparing two different societies at different times. I would say the Romans beat the Greeks in the physical world (they did literally take over Greece) but the Greeks sort of conquered the Romans, in that they praised their culture and strived to be like Greece.
But I enjoyed it.
Greece gave us Democracy The Romans gave us The Bible, Jesus Christ and Perpetual Empire based on never-ending war and Plato wept.
Well said
@@samrowbotham8914
You sound as though from Monty Python sketch.
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Roads, Aqueducts, irregation, better education, better military organisation, greater diversity and inclusion in the Roman empire.
Under floor heating, Baths, sewers meaning sanitation and less disease, stable cast coinage, treasury's and the first census.
The Macedonian Greek empire stretched from ancient Greece to the edges of China. The Greek language also became the lingua franca (koine Greek ) in all territories settled by the ancient macedonians even in ancient Rome they spoke Greek. Hence the new testament was also wriiten in Greek, so there was other Greek polis states in ancient Greece that contributed to Greek culture universally not just Athens..
@Kostas T India is next door to China that's why he said to the edges of China.
Don Vito Cascioferro but the edge of India isn’t the edge of China
Lewis S yes it is. India share a border with China
Don Vito Cascioferro how does that mean the edge of China just because it shares a border with them? In that case the Macedonian empire also reached to the edge of Siberia
Lewis S Do you even understand the English language? When saying the edges of China he obviously means the Indian border with China as that’s where Alexander’s Empire stretched too.
Enjoyed this. Many thanks.
Very very entertaining, and both had good points to make! Loved it!
Both speakers are really cool! Knowledge is the best heritage!
Wow I loved this debate
Also I really NEED to read more from Mary Bead
Mary is insatiably intelligent and knowledgeable. What an incredible debate to stumble upon. Although I feel Mary was more willing to die on her hill than Boris was. Boris understands the pivotal steps forward which Rome took that still shape our civilisation today as well as the steps taken by Greece. Mary, whilst also respecting Greece’s influence, seems to think Rome did most of the heavy lifting...
Boris didn't care so much to win the debate, he card to have an enjoyable debate and instructive one, and he felt that existence of democracy, was enough for a while debate.
But Boris really managed this. He really made the debate very beautiful to watch and enjoy while if it was clearly about who would win maybe it would not be the enjoyable and instructive entertainment we got. So I am thankful to Boris for keeping a humorous bautiful and colourful debate.
I suspect this is something that politicians learn in debate school. Compliment your opponent, concede that you agree with some of their points. Makes you look gracious and likable. Maybe I'm a cynic though.