I’m not all that religious, but I always loved how Babylon 5 paid a lot of attention to religion, and healthy positive examples of our religions interacting with others
I'm an atheist and I couldn't agree with you more. When Sinclair was pressed into showing the 'predominate religious belief' of earth to the other world delegates, he ended up with a long line of people who he introduced one-by-one to the delegates. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindis, Native Americans ... even an atheist. JMS treated peoples beliefs with the respect which they deserve whether you agree with them or not.
@@tomjustis7237 The correct attitude, one I admire. As a Christian, you chose Christ-like tolerance, understanding and kindness. I imagine from an atheist point of view, it's more of a logical, humane attitude. It would be wonderful if nowadays we could all follow this basic example. A place where Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi's, Native Americans, Atheists and others could sit down in a restaurant and simply talk about what they share and acknowledge the good intention behind what they don't share in common.
@@richardmoloney689 I can't remember if hw was betazoid or not but I do remember he was mockie. Yes I know I can't spell. The actor can play a very good psycho. Like I totally believe him in every role I've seen him play.
The post fun part is, Michael is not a believer. Yet he wrote every religion with utmost respect and understanding, without ignoring or denying the flaws.
He understand the true duality of Christ´s being better then most christians. Jesus is God...but he is human. And as a human He suffer, and He fear what is about to come. And as God, He can avoid it....He have such power...the angels are His to command...and, yet, He stayed, from His own free will...for us.
Tragically, we have lost far too many writers who believe in this. There are far too many people pushing an agenda while belittling other's beliefs. It's not necessary to embrace the beliefs of another to value their their beliefs, for them, are good.
This moment is a foreshadow to the time Delen stands in the Wheel of Fire to be judged in season 4. She knew what would happen, she knew the cost and she chose to stay.
@@ayylmao2190 Kosh might have chosen to leave altogether -- not merely postponing the inevitable but averting it entirely. But that would mean abandoning his post -- since he couldn't ask his government to replace him without putting his successor under the same danger that he himself would be fleeing. And for him, leaving his post -- and destroying the fragile alliance he'd helped create -- was not an option. The same is true of Delenne in the Wheel of Fire. She was saved by Neroon, but she could have saved herself: she could have left the circle after Shakiri had left it, and then declare that, since neither the Warrior nor the Religious Castes were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, the leadership should go to the Worker Caste, the only Caste that did not engage in warfare and did not kill anyone. Presumably, that's she told Neroon she'd do, so she was aware of the option. But in the moment, at least, she felt couldn't back out, not even to save her own life.
@@ugolomb Well thematically kosh was a metaphor for jesus in the garden, so I think there was more of an undertone of "I have to do this, this is my destiny/fate" vibe going on as well.
This scene, like countless others in Babylon 5, clearly illustrates the absolute power of the writing. As an avowed atheist, JMS respected the beliefs of others and gave them a fair shake without being patronizing or derisive. I suspect he expressed his own personal beliefs rather eloquently through Lennier in this scene, and then gave the Brother Edward character an analogous contextual soliloquy about Christ's very human moment as he faced what he was born to do . . . .
JMS did what any good writer should do. He talked with his characters in his mind. For example, the original plan was for Londo to kill Cartagia. Vir said to him "No, let me do it. It will hurt me", and that will gives you opportunties in the story later on. You've got to always stay true to your characters. The characters will give you the most organic driver for the plot and story.
Agreed. That's why I loved B5 so much more than any Star Trek after the original series. The original series didn't have this problem, but Gene Roddenberry had spent the seventies and eighties attending Star Trek conventions, and listening to legions of adoring fans tell him what a great moral visionary he was for imagining Star Trek's optimistic take on humanity's future, and he really started to believe it. Where TOS was more grounded, TNG and onward suffered from Roddenberry's naïvely utopian worldview. So you'll note there isn't a _hint_ of religion in Star Trek from TNG forward. Roddenberry actively forbade TNG's writers from portraying any friction or serious disagreement between the main characters, because he felt that humanity would have "moved past" that sort of interpersonal conflict. (This is a big reason why the first two seasons of TNG simply weren't very good.) J. Michael Straczynski, OTOH, was more realistic in his take on humanity, on human nature, on the importance of religion to human beings. He wrote characters with beliefs very different from his own, which Roddenberry simply didn't. JMS didn't pretend people with very different views than his had simply faded into history. That is much, mush more realistic, and I think simply better writing for that reason.
He later revists this with G'kar, who is asked by one of his followers with "What is truth and what is god?" G'kar then explains it rather similar how Lennier did....only for the follower miss the point completly and repeat the question. That's when G'kar starts to realize, they aren't to learn what he's teaching and they're just trying to find something akin to a bumber slogan, something that can be summed up easily.
@@Calmputer No, you have misunderstood the meaning of the word irony. Irony requires a result that is the opposite of what was originally stated. Here we have Brother Edward unsure if he would have stayed or not. Later we have Brother Edward waiting for his killers. Not being sure is not an opposite of taking an action, so there is no irony. You could call it a tragedy as it was the character trait of his desire to seek repentance that led to his death. That still doesn't make it ironic though.
He played the doctor on Deadwood, also the Sheriff in the Halloween remakes. But yeah, it's nice to see him in non-villianous roles. Kinda like Jeffery Combs in the first season as the sympathetic Psi-Corp member who as he tells Ivanova, just wanted to be a pilot.
In the TV series "The Magnificent Seven" (1998-1999) he played the corrupt foreman of a railroad building company. A villain but not overly evil, just a jerk.
This is probably my favorite single episode of B5. It's SO powerful, but quietly so. Watching a single man make that choice. It chokes me up even now thinking about it.
combine this with the Inquisitor episode (aka jack (the ripper serving 400 years penance) and you to will find... that you are the right person, at the right time, in the right place ;D
I remember watching this many years ago, and for YEARS I'd always thought the same thing. That the Universe was a living thing and that we were the tools the universe is using to try and comprehend itself. I was gratified to learn that I was not alone in thinking this.
Now view the moment at Gethsemane thru the lens of Minbari philosophy. The universe's moment of hesitation before projecting itself into itself to test its own courage.
I feel like Delenn would even have agreed, in her own way, with the Christian doctrine that Jesus was the son of God. From a Minbari point of view, divinity is an expression of the universe: in that sense, we are all children of the divine.
Amazingly enough this is one of the greatest description of the Christian faith I have seen and as child I watched this and didn't full appreciate it. now as an adult its so much more profound to me.
So many soldiers died when faced to such decision. The problem which I see there is that those soldiers were not even necessary Christians and not always fighting for a "good cause". For eg. Germans in WWII. And honestly I don't understand the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice. 1. there is no logic in it; The almighty God could just snap his fingers and clear up all the sins. 2. Why God, who's all Love would not just forgive our sins? If I, a little man, can forgive a wrongdoing to me by the other man - why God couldn't do that? 3. So Jesus died on the cross, got resurrected and moved back to heavens... and how the lives of the people has changed since then? We still get sick, feel the pain, suffer, go on wars, die... I don't see that "Satan" has been defeated. 4. Jews of the time of Jesus have had a concept of the afterlife - but the hell was not strongly pronounced. So basically Jews after death go to heaven (+ judgment etc.) The concept of hell was introduced by Christianity. So as I see it, is a bit of a "snake oil salesman" who tells you that you are going to have a "cancer" but if you buy his oil you would be saved.
Brad Dourif is an amazing actor he can be as creepy as Hannibal Lecter or he can be as sincere and is warm and is open as the person you most trust in this world. For any person to be able to slide back and forth between those two that is a great actor. His daughter is amazing as well.
Are you still trying? To me, it reads out like this. Your body is made out of the particles that once exploded out of stars in the beginning eras of the Big Bang. You aren't just living in the universe, you are made from the universe thus you ARE the universe, just as the stars, the planets, the galaxies. So in essence, you are indeed the universe observing itself. Minbari philosophy seems to extend the universe as a consciousness with its own complexity and life within that universe is that attempt of self-understanding. It is a very elegant philosophy.
@ Marilee, I think that this can be understood as either a sort of dualism or idealism. If it is understood as a form of metaphysical dualism it is close to the system of Samkya, in which the pure consciousness of the Purusha is "locked" into nature or Prakriti. There is an aspect of our psychophysical being made out of Prakriti that reflects the pure consciousness of the Purusha, and I believe that is the ahamkara. I think when Delenn stated that the supreme consciousness wants to experience meaning by fracturing itself into many parts, this reminds me of Hermeticism. and this would be more of an absolute idealism. The idea is that the most fundamental reality is consciousness, but to truly have subjectivity, this consciousness must lose itself in its otherness, which is nature, and then come back to itself through beings like us that experience a rich inner world of meaning. All the spheres of human activity like art, religion, and philosophy are ways for us to experience meaning, and thus fulfil the purpose of existence.
This is about the holographic principle and it does get some backing from the Bible. Jesus washed His disciples' feet as a symbol of how His blood washes our sins away. The 3 dimensional body is merely the bottom of the "feet" of your real self
@@Tantive Not a lot different than Native American and Rosicrucian philosophy. Spinoza said: "There is nothing that exists or can exist, seen or unseen, that is not God."
For me the best showing of religion is the last episode of the 1st season when during the week examples of different cultures spiritual beliefs are on display & what Captain Sinclair does is beautiful, no bells, no chants just all of earth's different religions lined up for everyone to be introduced to...
That final decision.The defining moment in a human life. A final lesson to all who would be left behind, delivered via the most potent avenue of expression . . . Personal Example. Faith, Hope, Charity and Love are all rolled up in Christ's last act of Selfless Courage and Sacrifice for the benefit of All.
Remember the three defenders of Malta. Antiquated biplanes named Faith Hope and Charity. Held the Luftwaffe and Italian Airforce at bay till reinforcements from Britain could be ferried in.
This show had so many great performances. Both Mira Furlan, and Bill Mumy we’re so invested in their characters, that at times we’re convinced that you were watching actual otherworldly beings. This was a unique moment in television.
@@BlueGoblin1 , the story of the Jesus mythology is that Jesus willingly allowed himself to be sacrificed to pay for the sins of mankind so God would not send us down to hell which we so richly deserved. I don't find anything good or just in that. I don't want anyone else paying for my crimes. I certainly don't want anyone else Dying for my crimes. If God feels that I deserve to burn in Hell for eternity for my crimes on Earth, then so be it. But it's wrong and unjust to allow his own son to die in agony for our sins. There's something very twisted and unjust there, and the fact that it's God's son, and he did it willingly according to the story, does not make it any better.....
Ah and then Brad as Deadwood's town doc on his aching knees pleading and raging about the town's dying preacher which then avalanches into his PTSD as a Civil War surgeon is incredible.
@@maskedmarvyl4774 What you described is what God calls "Grace". That everything that we have done against His name. The love He has for us. God went so far as to show how much He wants you with Him in heaven. Sin seperates us from God. And only Jesus could fulfill all the requirements needed for us to be reconciled from God. So, the question is, By Jesus's righteousness can you accept that gift?
G'kar is Saint Nicholas at Nicea. He assaults a heretic and is placed reluctantly in jail for a short term by the other bishops. He is stripped of his title and rank, yet philosophizes joyfully with his friendly jailer. He is let out early and his prestige is restored by influence of the spirits of Jesus and Mary (Sheridan and Delin). He becomes a defender of the weak and abused. He is venerated as a later day prophet though he rejects that ascertation by his adoring followers. A classic historic and storied character reused in modern fiction. Not a shock.
G'kar went down the path of religion until he realized that religion only breeds more questions, and he found something better something true inside the book of his heart.
No. The analogy is the same, but the application is different. To the Minbari, the soul is part of the universe discovering itself. To G'Kar, the individual's search for wisdom is the point. There is no mention of the spiritual reality of individual soul, universal soul, or any other spiritual reality. His philosophy, at least in that particular discussion, seems largely agnostic concerning supernatural matters, and more individualistic than monistic.
@@the1tigglet , In other words, he looked for truth, didn't find it where he looked, so settled on personal sentiment. Everything sounds nice when you say it like a Hallmark card. Of course, I can only criticise so much. It must be a real challenge, though I would think an enjoyable one, to have to produce the religions, philosophies, and worldviews of multiple entire civilizations from scratch and not have them be a bit hokey.
Brad Dourif is one of those few actors who just draws your attention to him - like a magnet. I am pleased he got a chance to play - in essence - a 'good guy' on B5. ☮
He was alone enough hat he could have left without disturbing anyone. He ould have postponed ore even avoided his crucifixion. That is the point of the story.
@@OpusBuddly possibly the greatest thing about this series was that it was a human experience , full of failure but never giving up , humans always trying to improve.
"I really appreciate your taking this time to sea my ambassador to land among my beaver lights is considered an hour to aid any prune sneeker in his request do you mind if I record it..." 😂🤣
The Minbari seem to have a similar spiritual understanding as Carl Sagan, that aero are the universe observing itself and our an extension of the natural processes all around us. As I have grown older I have found myself drifting towards such a feeling. Personally I have noticed that eastern religions like Buddhism and Shinto seem to emphasize man being but only a part or the world around him, a world view I find to be more in tune with reality than the Christian ideal of humanity being something uniquely special among all else.
This was the difference between DS9's religious theme and Babylon 5. DS9 was just a facade of piety almost false B5's look within was beseeching and self aware.
Not a religious person but I feel deeply for Minbari culture & belief! I think I'd want to be a Minbari because 2/3 of their culture (the Warrior caste might not be strong in belief cause they enjoy destroying beings) believe in a peaceful & serene & vibrant future with no war no death no madness! That is why I love the Minbari sooo much!
I created a character for the City of Heroes MMO that essentially embodied the Minbari views on the universe and the soul. Trying to explain his existence and concept in character was both the most difficult and most rewarding thing I've ever done in my 40+ years as a roleplayer.
I think that with Jedi Fallen order examining a bit that the Jedi fell due to clinging to dogma was a great thing to explore. I like how Delenn immediately focuses on the core of belief and its meaning, and disregards any standards or dogma, because at the heart belief shouldn’t be repetition and .... It should be something that makes us feel fulfilled, to be better, and to believe in a power or grasp of the universe bigger than ourselves. This is also imporitneat because with the presence dictatorships of theocratic nature, the best known example being Iran, they often use religious dogma and scripture to gain a position of power.
So does a preacher paid 5 million a year with a free mansion and Gulfstream jet. Preach the dogma and forgetting the true meaning that is at the heart of Christianity. What religion doesn't have those of false face, yet still there are those who strive for better.
It's very interesting that G'Kar uses the same analogy, but uses it to explain a very different concept. To the Mimbari, it's used to express a spiritual concept of the soul as an extension of a higher power, the universe, separate from the individual. With G'Kar, the source of the light is from within, and defined by the person and their search for truth and god. Two very different philosophical approaches.
A better answer to her is a deep personal relationship with the creator of the universe along with having principles that help to make our lives better and more fulfilling. Another answer that our God although seeing man as imperfect gave up that which was most precious to him in order to save those who would love him and put faith in him.
0:33 Interestingly enough, when Kosh got angry with Sheridan and started to gather his strenght, Babylon 5's registered an energy spike, while while bridge staff saying they cannot locate it as it "a non localized phenomenom."
@@OpusBuddly Идея мирового духа, который себя осознаёт через материю, а потом стряхнёт её как пыль со всеми вытекающими. В Вавилоне только часть этой концепции показана явно.
The basis of Minbari is both Greek and Hindu. Ironically, if we ,each of us, see ourselves as a reflection of the source, our difference leading to conflict would be minimized. Tolerance would be the word. This understanding is also a reflection of the IDIC in Star Trek...Indeed!
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
The irony, is the Minbari Philosophy is the same as every hermit every mystic every shaman, we all know the truth, we are here to learn and grow, that is the purpose of all of us, we are not separate beings we are one being struggling to understand itself, we are not these bodies we are pieces of a larger being split in infinite directions having a temporary human experience. This is the codex of spirituality, learn it and understand it. You will learn that Religion isn't the answer it only breeds more questions. There is no holy book, there are no demands of loyalty, there are no totemic gods, no right way of thinking. Every creature in the universe knows right from wrong, religions teach you to ignore that knowledge. Spirituality breeds answers, it is the book in each heart.
@SOCIALMEDIAISWEIRD did you even read what culvea wrote? Or are you so blinded by your dogma that you just can't understand anything else but your dogma? It helps to have an open heart and mind!!!
@@OpusBuddly So I have heard, the Minbari belief that is. But it's my favorite because Brother Edwards reply to the Ambassador Delenn's question is the best television depiction of Christian belief I have ever seen. The later scene, where Brother Theo tells Brother Edward, "If you ask God to forgive your sins, he knows what they are, even if you've forgotten, Leave it in His hands." is just as good.
A thought exercise. I listened to this scenes garden of Gethsemane and I started thinking about the Battle of the Line. Those human pilots and soldiers went out there that day sacrificing themselves for, as Londo put it, humanity's "arrogance and stupidity all in the same package", because a couple of war wins and expanded sphere of influence made humans believe they can just go anywhere, and do whatever they wanted without respect of who and what is out there. The pilots didn't have to fight the Minbari that, they could have run as defensive escorts for the surviving ships, but they chose to stay as a front line to give humanity a chance to escape.
In all the television I have watched this one is the only one that speaks of the most important tenet of Christianity. that Christ died to save us from our sins. If you truly believe this then you are Christian no matter other fripperies or ritual is added. And Brad Dourif is so good in this scene.
It's often noted how JMS is an atheist but treated all religions with great respect and understanding, as well as the underlying concept of spirituality as evidenced in the fictional religions and philosophies he created for other species. (However, based on his own comments, the Minbari philosophy may be the closest he comes to spirituality himself - an idea that he feels just maybe, might be true.) One thing to understand about Stracsynski's writing on religion however, that puts it into an important perspective, is that he is not a placid appreciator of religions. He is rather quite critical of them and the way human beings have used them in perverted ways to further persecution, create harm, and to generate strife and war. JMS framing of religion in Babylon 5 is, in a sense, a way of shaming humans who use religion toward destructive ends. He makes a good-faith argument for various religions and for the good that religion could potentially bring to society to highlight how much people have failed to apply religion positively in real life. The story of Christ highlighted in this scene, for example, would absolutely represent the genuine core of the Christian mythology JMS finds valuable and enriching to the human condition - with absolutely none the other bullshit various self-professed Christians have bolted onto and around that core to justify the terrible things they do to others and even themselves.
I live in the south (georgia) and here, they think Jesus and God are perfect beings. While God may well be (IDK i never met him/her/it/they), Jesus was not perfect, in that he had questioned his fathers plan. Doesn't take away anything from his accomplishments, he feared death, a very human thing to do. Back to the Southern baptists, they are always trying to get me to bend and accept God (I'm a non believer) and claim that both God and Jesus are perfect, i should be on the perfect side. that argument usually shuts them up, for a year or so
You are missing the theological point that Jesus and God are one in the same. One of the tenants of Christianity is the concept of the Trinity. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one in the same.
@@xandersnyder7214, I understand that fully, The subject was about Jesus as he lived on earth. In my interpretation, even though they may be one in the same, Jesus was separate at the time. How else would he be talking to God (His father), in the first place Also one other thing, there is a passage in the bible (yes i went to church early in life) that says, "I am the light and the way, no man shall enter except through me". If i misquoted, i am sorry it's been a while. the way i interpret that passage, is Jesus is the ultimate judge, I highly doubt the Trinity is of one being, that can do it all. I mean time has to effect everyone (Even God) there is another scripture "Heaven and Earth shall fade away, but my word is eternal" this to me means that time if finite to all, even God. BTW, that last one was what made me question religion, in the first place. If Heaven can fade away, then it might not exist at all
@Mobley House Video He broke Dr. Yueh's conditioning, played by Dean Stockwell (played Al in Quantum Leap... And he also technically played the devil in the same series... Once. I only mention it, because it was one of my favorite episodes). Gurney was played by Sir Patrick Stewart.
I do not recall this actor's name, but I know many of his characters in the past that he played were "bad guys". It was nice to watch him get to play the "good guy" role, and be a focus of a story for once. Just a nice change for him and I for one am glad someone allowed him to break out of his type casting.
Yeah, it's funny when you meet someone much loved for their villainous characters, and then see how suprised they are when you tell them you loved their rare good guy characters. See also, Jeffrey Combs, who ALSO appeared in the first season of B5, as the Psi-Corp member of EYES.
@@JnEricsonx Even in DS9 (kinda funny that he appeared in both shows) he did play Weyoun 6, the "defective" one who was against the Dominion's war. To think that for most of DS9 he played a cunning, conniving second-in-command to the Dominion and yet in that one episode he played such a nice version of that same character.
Later Edward tells Theo that he does not know what other crimes he may have committed and that he is a murderer and there must be justice Theo replies If you ask God to forgive your sins he know what they are even if you don't A very well thought out seen and episode, I fear if the reboot happens that such will not be the case again.
"We believe that universe is ... wait a minute, are you a human, because we wanted to kill you all of you ten years ago, so advanced and spiritual we were."
Ryszard Nanke They didn't say they killed humans, because they were so advanced and spiritual... don't forget that humans attacked them when they just wanted to show respect.
So the first contact (both sides are to be blame, with humans pulling the trigger first) goes tragic and what the most advanced of young races decided to do ? They decided to commit genocide. They decided to kill 11 bilion people just for what few humans did. And the only think which finally stoped them, even if in the end they were tired, they wanted to stop, and they knew they were wrong (but they have no courage to admit it), was presence of "Minbari souls" in human bodies. Just like so called spiritually advanced people decided that live and souls matters only, when they are Minbari. At some point of time "Come on, lets go kill all humans, lets burn their homeword, and lets erase bilions years of evelotion" Couple of years later "We believe all klive is sacred, and the universe is trying to figure it self out." Minbari are worse then Dilgars and Delenn is worse than Death Walker. Dilgars were trying to avoid extintion, and Deathwalker was only trying to save her people.
Ryszard Nanke Rewatching the clip still doesn't explain where the "We believe all life is sacred..." comes in. They simply said that the soul is a projection and the mortal body is only a "placeholder" which can be perceived by other mortal races... and the soul is just a fraction of the universe, which wants to figure itself out. They don't really say anything about the sanctity of life, and even if they did in other episodes it was only on the sanctity of minbari life. (By law they are forbidden to kill each other, that's why they stopped their attack on earth when they discovered Valen's soul inside Sinclair). Oh, and on the genocide: knowing them they at least had a coucinl meeting, which decided what would they do about the attack and the insult, however because they think honor is everything, I would actually believe why would they think it's unacceptable and unforgiveable. So... what was you point again?
Listening to this - I am reminded of G'Kar talking about the search for god and how he uses the same "light on the wall" analogy that Lennier does. ua-cam.com/video/9VvbNqU_HaA/v-deo.html
This truly was a very powerful moment and a very deep and powerful subject that I'm afraid we will never see again in this so politically correct liberal environment that exists in Hollywood today. The one time they actually truly teach what real Christian morales are about. They are so lost in today's liberal universe.
You mean this record of crystianity love ? markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html Yes we keep records of your SO LOVING AND PEACEFULL COEXISTION!!!
Nereknu Vamnic I did not say all who call themselves Christians are Christians. Unfortunately they are far more who claim Christianity but do evil in Christianity's name than true Christian's. You took my comment out of contexts was referring to the morale values of Christianity and those who hold dear to them. But like all of you on the left you want to make general observations and say just because this group is bad then all mist be.
Dear Ken Jett I am a left liberal atheist and I appreciate the words and their meaning. I have friends who are moslem, buddist or christian and despite the different label share a core believe that the other is a brother, a sister to them them, that it matters what you do to them and that you are supposed to love the other not to hate. I do not have a higher deighty ( maybe I am a Minbari) but I do not think evil, I do not speak evil and I do not do evil. You recognize each tree on its fruits, each! The christians and the atheists ones.
puckthebear I like to say that was very well said/spoken. As A Christian we are to love one another even our enemies. Also we are suppose to do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Unfortunately so few really follow those commandments. LIKE you said at the core almost all religious beliefs have a very similar beginning. The differences have came with the eons of time and culture. To be honest man has corrupted religious knowledge and faith and I believe this is at least in part what was being talked about in this video. One of the most moving emotional points in the series for me.
I agree with you Man tainted the good, the wisdom and love in order to gain power and control. I would say most worship the gods mammon and me and turn the world into hell. But I have can also say that I have been fortunate enough to meet and know good and kind persons which gives me hope. Scenes like this and others seem to be like very special harmonic wave, it meets your heart, your soul ( I am an atheist, but I have soul!) and you feel it!
The prophet Ezekiel warned that a righteous man could not atone for the sins of the wicked, no innocent person can die for the sins of the wicked! Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 18 20 The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live? 24 And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die. Finally, the prophets loudly declared that the contrite prayer of the penitent sinner replaces the sacrificial system. Therefore, atonement for unintentional sins today is expiated through devotional supplication to God, the Merciful One. In fact, in the third chapter of Hosea, the prophet foretold with divine exactness that the nation of Israel would not have a sacrificial system during the last segment of Jewish history until the messianic age. Hosea declares, Hoshea - Hosea - Chapter 3 4 For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim. 5 Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days. If the prophet is testifying that the nation of Israel will indeed be without a sacrificial system during their long exile until the messianic age, what are we to use instead? How are the Jewish people to atone for unintentional sin without a blood sacrifice during their bitter exile? What about all the animal sacrifices prescribed in the Book of Leviticus? Can the Jewish people get along without animal offerings? Missionaries claim they cannot. The Bible disagrees. For this reason, the teaching highlighted in Hosea 14:2-3 is crucial. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to “render for bulls the offering of our lips.” Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system. Hosea states, Hoshea - Hosea - Chapter 14 2 Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity 3 Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips. Melachim I - I Kings - Chapter 8 46 If they sin against You, for (there is) no man who does not sin, and You will be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, and their captors will carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near. 47 And they shall bethink themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness.' 48 And they shall return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land, which You gave to their fathers, the city that You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your Name. 49 And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. 50 And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.
I’m not all that religious, but I always loved how Babylon 5 paid a lot of attention to religion, and healthy positive examples of our religions interacting with others
I'm an atheist and I couldn't agree with you more. When Sinclair was pressed into showing the 'predominate religious belief' of earth to the other world delegates, he ended up with a long line of people who he introduced one-by-one to the delegates. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindis, Native Americans ... even an atheist. JMS treated peoples beliefs with the respect which they deserve whether you agree with them or not.
@@tomjustis7237 Did you notice that it was Atheist, Baptist, Catholic, and presumably down the rest of the alphabet?
He also gave them each a greeting following their own belief
@@tomjustis7237 The correct attitude, one I admire. As a Christian, you chose Christ-like tolerance, understanding and kindness. I imagine from an atheist point of view, it's more of a logical, humane attitude. It would be wonderful if nowadays we could all follow this basic example. A place where Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi's, Native Americans, Atheists and others could sit down in a restaurant and simply talk about what they share and acknowledge the good intention behind what they don't share in common.
Right. 23rd century and people still believe in superstition and magic skymen. Really sad.
Brad Dourif never fails to make whatever he works on better. Brilliant.
Didn't he play a Betazoid on ST Voyager?
@@richardmoloney689 He was definitely on there.
@@richardmoloney689 I can't remember if hw was betazoid or not but I do remember he was mockie. Yes I know I can't spell. The actor can play a very good psycho. Like I totally believe him in every role I've seen him play.
@@richardmoloney689 yeah he played the betazoid serial killer
Piter de vries in Dune and Wormtongue in lord of the rings
The post fun part is, Michael is not a believer.
Yet he wrote every religion with utmost respect and understanding, without ignoring or denying the flaws.
You don't have to believe, to understand and treat anything with dignity
Which is what makes what he wrote even more poignant.
Because from his point of view it's just another form of fiction expressing a philosophy
He understand the true duality of Christ´s being better then most christians. Jesus is God...but he is human. And as a human He suffer, and He fear what is about to come. And as God, He can avoid it....He have such power...the angels are His to command...and, yet, He stayed, from His own free will...for us.
Tragically, we have lost far too many writers who believe in this. There are far too many people pushing an agenda while belittling other's beliefs.
It's not necessary to embrace the beliefs of another to value their their beliefs, for them, are good.
This moment is a foreshadow to the time Delen stands in the Wheel of Fire to be judged in season 4. She knew what would happen, she knew the cost and she chose to stay.
She learned from Brother Theo - the best of all monks.
and kosh waiting in his quarters
@@ayylmao2190Truth.
@@ayylmao2190 Kosh might have chosen to leave altogether -- not merely postponing the inevitable but averting it entirely. But that would mean abandoning his post -- since he couldn't ask his government to replace him without putting his successor under the same danger that he himself would be fleeing. And for him, leaving his post -- and destroying the fragile alliance he'd helped create -- was not an option.
The same is true of Delenne in the Wheel of Fire. She was saved by Neroon, but she could have saved herself: she could have left the circle after Shakiri had left it, and then declare that, since neither the Warrior nor the Religious Castes were willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, the leadership should go to the Worker Caste, the only Caste that did not engage in warfare and did not kill anyone. Presumably, that's she told Neroon she'd do, so she was aware of the option. But in the moment, at least, she felt couldn't back out, not even to save her own life.
@@ugolomb Well thematically kosh was a metaphor for jesus in the garden, so I think there was more of an undertone of "I have to do this, this is my destiny/fate" vibe going on as well.
This scene, like countless others in Babylon 5, clearly illustrates the absolute power of the writing. As an avowed atheist, JMS respected the beliefs of others and gave them a fair shake without being patronizing or derisive. I suspect he expressed his own personal beliefs rather eloquently through Lennier in this scene, and then gave the Brother Edward character an analogous contextual soliloquy about Christ's very human moment as he faced what he was born to do . . . .
JMS did what any good writer should do. He talked with his characters in his mind. For example, the original plan was for Londo to kill Cartagia. Vir said to him "No, let me do it. It will hurt me", and that will gives you opportunties in the story later on.
You've got to always stay true to your characters. The characters will give you the most organic driver for the plot and story.
A very good point. You are correct in every respect.
Agreed. That's why I loved B5 so much more than any Star Trek after the original series. The original series didn't have this problem, but Gene Roddenberry had spent the seventies and eighties attending Star Trek conventions, and listening to legions of adoring fans tell him what a great moral visionary he was for imagining Star Trek's optimistic take on humanity's future, and he really started to believe it. Where TOS was more grounded, TNG and onward suffered from Roddenberry's naïvely utopian worldview. So you'll note there isn't a _hint_ of religion in Star Trek from TNG forward. Roddenberry actively forbade TNG's writers from portraying any friction or serious disagreement between the main characters, because he felt that humanity would have "moved past" that sort of interpersonal conflict. (This is a big reason why the first two seasons of TNG simply weren't very good.)
J. Michael Straczynski, OTOH, was more realistic in his take on humanity, on human nature, on the importance of religion to human beings. He wrote characters with beliefs very different from his own, which Roddenberry simply didn't. JMS didn't pretend people with very different views than his had simply faded into history. That is much, mush more realistic, and I think simply better writing for that reason.
He later revists this with G'kar, who is asked by one of his followers with "What is truth and what is god?"
G'kar then explains it rather similar how Lennier did....only for the follower miss the point completly and repeat the question. That's when G'kar starts to realize, they aren't to learn what he's teaching and they're just trying to find something akin to a bumber slogan, something that can be summed up easily.
This is where people find god not in preachers but in tiny moments of revelation and wisdom, the minbari beliefs are beautiful
The irony: In the end, Brother Edward had the courage to stay.
10Tabris01 That isn't an example of irony.
@@zarabada6125 Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
Such a sad story.
@@Calmputer Yes, a little too ironic.
@@Calmputer No, you have misunderstood the meaning of the word irony. Irony requires a result that is the opposite of what was originally stated.
Here we have Brother Edward unsure if he would have stayed or not.
Later we have Brother Edward waiting for his killers.
Not being sure is not an opposite of taking an action, so there is no irony.
You could call it a tragedy as it was the character trait of his desire to seek repentance that led to his death. That still doesn't make it ironic though.
This is as close to a normal role Brad Douriff has ever gotten. And he still ends up playing a serial killer. Albeit a memory wiped one.
He played the doctor on Deadwood, also the Sheriff in the Halloween remakes. But yeah, it's nice to see him in non-villianous roles. Kinda like Jeffery Combs in the first season as the sympathetic Psi-Corp member who as he tells Ivanova, just wanted to be a pilot.
In the TV series "The Magnificent Seven" (1998-1999) he played the corrupt foreman of a railroad building company. A villain but not overly evil, just a jerk.
you mean in star trek voyager wene he was suiter
This is probably my favorite single episode of B5. It's SO powerful, but quietly so. Watching a single man make that choice. It chokes me up even now thinking about it.
For me it's not probably my favorite, it is my favorite.
combine this with the Inquisitor episode (aka jack (the ripper serving 400 years penance) and you to will find... that you are the right person, at the right time, in the right place ;D
@@jokeraceofhearts That's one of my other favorites.
I remember watching this many years ago, and for YEARS I'd always thought the same thing. That the Universe was a living thing and that we were the tools the universe is using to try and comprehend itself. I was gratified to learn that I was not alone in thinking this.
The way Delenn looks at him while he is telling his story, as if understanding dawns on her, and then absolute awe and humility.
I think inadvertently, in that moment, Edward planted the seed for the Delenn who stayed in the Fire Circle.
Such a simple, yet powerful scene. This episode was truely one of the top 10 best of this series.
out of an amaing series with so many fantastic shows
Now view the moment at Gethsemane thru the lens of Minbari philosophy. The universe's moment of hesitation before projecting itself into itself to test its own courage.
I feel like Delenn would even have agreed, in her own way, with the Christian doctrine that Jesus was the son of God. From a Minbari point of view, divinity is an expression of the universe: in that sense, we are all children of the divine.
Amazingly enough this is one of the greatest description of the Christian faith I have seen and as child I watched this and didn't full appreciate it. now as an adult its so much more profound to me.
I think it is very profound and I'm not even a Christian.
Truth is beyond definition.
+Badlaama Urukehu amen
+Opus Buddly thanks for the respect
So many soldiers died when faced to such decision. The problem which I see there is that those soldiers were not even necessary Christians and not always fighting for a "good cause". For eg. Germans in WWII.
And honestly I don't understand the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice. 1. there is no logic in it; The almighty God could just snap his fingers and clear up all the sins. 2. Why God, who's all Love would not just forgive our sins? If I, a little man, can forgive a wrongdoing to me by the other man - why God couldn't do that? 3. So Jesus died on the cross, got resurrected and moved back to heavens... and how the lives of the people has changed since then? We still get sick, feel the pain, suffer, go on wars, die... I don't see that "Satan" has been defeated.
4. Jews of the time of Jesus have had a concept of the afterlife - but the hell was not strongly pronounced. So basically Jews after death go to heaven (+ judgment etc.) The concept of hell was introduced by Christianity. So as I see it, is a bit of a "snake oil salesman" who tells you that you are going to have a "cancer" but if you buy his oil you would be saved.
Brad Dourif is an amazing actor he can be as creepy as Hannibal Lecter or he can be as sincere and is warm and is open as the person you most trust in this world. For any person to be able to slide back and forth between those two that is a great actor. His daughter is amazing as well.
The scene at the end where Brother Theo attends to Brother Edward is one of the most powerful and heartbraking in the series.
Brother Theo caring for him at the end... It never fails to make me tear up.
Beautiful!
And the Minbari concept expresses something I have been trying to wrap my head around.
Are you still trying? To me, it reads out like this. Your body is made out of the particles that once exploded out of stars in the beginning eras of the Big Bang. You aren't just living in the universe, you are made from the universe thus you ARE the universe, just as the stars, the planets, the galaxies. So in essence, you are indeed the universe observing itself. Minbari philosophy seems to extend the universe as a consciousness with its own complexity and life within that universe is that attempt of self-understanding.
It is a very elegant philosophy.
@ Marilee, I think that this can be understood as either a sort of dualism or idealism. If it is understood as a form of metaphysical dualism it is close to the system of Samkya, in which the pure consciousness of the Purusha is "locked" into nature or Prakriti. There is an aspect of our psychophysical being made out of Prakriti that reflects the pure consciousness of the Purusha, and I believe that is the ahamkara. I think when Delenn stated that the supreme consciousness wants to experience meaning by fracturing itself into many parts, this reminds me of Hermeticism. and this would be more of an absolute idealism. The idea is that the most fundamental reality is consciousness, but to truly have subjectivity, this consciousness must lose itself in its otherness, which is nature, and then come back to itself through beings like us that experience a rich inner world of meaning. All the spheres of human activity like art, religion, and philosophy are ways for us to experience meaning, and thus fulfil the purpose of existence.
This is about the holographic principle and it does get some backing from the Bible. Jesus washed His disciples' feet as a symbol of how His blood washes our sins away. The 3 dimensional body is merely the bottom of the "feet" of your real self
@@Tantive Not a lot different than Native American and Rosicrucian philosophy.
Spinoza said: "There is nothing that exists or can exist, seen or unseen, that is not God."
For me the best showing of religion is the last episode of the 1st season when during the week examples of different cultures spiritual beliefs are on display & what Captain Sinclair does is beautiful, no bells, no chants just all of earth's different religions lined up for everyone to be introduced to...
I keep expecting Brad Douriff to do something slightly sinister, but he plays earnest and sweet so well
Would it have been better if he had memory flashbacks of the murder(s) he committed?
That final decision.The defining moment in a human life.
A final lesson to all who would be left behind, delivered via the most potent avenue of expression . . .
Personal Example.
Faith, Hope, Charity and Love are all rolled up in Christ's last act of Selfless Courage and Sacrifice for the benefit of All.
Sad so many have closed their hearts and minds to that truth.
Remember the three defenders of Malta. Antiquated biplanes named Faith Hope and Charity. Held the Luftwaffe and Italian Airforce at bay till reinforcements from Britain could be ferried in.
one off my favorite episodes....for this scene and also the lesson in forgiveness at the end of the episode from Brother Theo to Sheridan...
This show had so many great performances. Both Mira Furlan, and Bill Mumy we’re so invested in their characters, that at times we’re convinced that you were watching actual otherworldly beings. This was a unique moment in television.
It's so good to see Lon Suder finally finding peace. :)
The Minbari philosophy makes a lot more sense to me more than any other mainstream religion.
One year late, but this kind of belief is called pantheism if you want to look further into it.
@@fyraltari1889 I want to say as an Altar boy growing up in Catholic faith you are correct
It's this kind of conversation, the soul searching, the discovery of spiritual truths and beliefs, that made B5 my all-time favourite sf
That man sacrificed it all to save Voyager. I hope he finds the peace in death he never had in life.
I remember that episode too, the Kazon never stood a chance.
Oh, good ol' Brad Douriff. Expressing everything good and right about Christianity right there.
What is good or right about a man being brutally sacrificed for the crimes of others?
@@maskedmarvyl4774 If you do not see the charity of one giving his life to save others as Good. Then you miss the whole purpose of living.
@@BlueGoblin1 , the story of the Jesus mythology is that Jesus willingly allowed himself to be sacrificed to pay for the sins of mankind so God would not send us down to hell which we so richly deserved.
I don't find anything good or just in that.
I don't want anyone else paying for my crimes. I certainly don't want anyone else Dying for my crimes. If God feels that I deserve to burn in Hell for eternity for my crimes on Earth, then so be it. But it's wrong and unjust to allow his own son to die in agony for our sins. There's something very twisted and unjust there, and the fact that it's God's son, and he did it willingly according to the story, does not make it any better.....
Ah and then Brad as Deadwood's town doc on his aching knees pleading and raging about the town's dying preacher which then avalanches into his PTSD as a Civil War surgeon is incredible.
@@maskedmarvyl4774 What you described is what God calls "Grace". That everything that we have done against His name. The love He has for us. God went so far as to show how much He wants you with Him in heaven. Sin seperates us from God. And only Jesus could fulfill all the requirements needed for us to be reconciled from God. So, the question is, By Jesus's righteousness can you accept that gift?
Amazingly beautiful his description of faith.
So, this is almost exactly as G'kar is teaching later on, about what is God :)
Yes!
G'kar is Saint Nicholas at Nicea.
He assaults a heretic and is placed reluctantly in jail for a short term by the other bishops. He is stripped of his title and rank, yet philosophizes joyfully with his friendly jailer. He is let out early and his prestige is restored by influence of the spirits of Jesus and Mary (Sheridan and Delin).
He becomes a defender of the weak and abused. He is venerated as a later day prophet though he rejects that ascertation by his adoring followers.
A classic historic and storied character reused in modern fiction. Not a shock.
G'kar went down the path of religion until he realized that religion only breeds more questions, and he found something better something true inside the book of his heart.
No. The analogy is the same, but the application is different. To the Minbari, the soul is part of the universe discovering itself. To G'Kar, the individual's search for wisdom is the point. There is no mention of the spiritual reality of individual soul, universal soul, or any other spiritual reality. His philosophy, at least in that particular discussion, seems largely agnostic concerning supernatural matters, and more individualistic than monistic.
@@the1tigglet ,
In other words, he looked for truth, didn't find it where he looked, so settled on personal sentiment. Everything sounds nice when you say it like a Hallmark card.
Of course, I can only criticise so much. It must be a real challenge, though I would think an enjoyable one, to have to produce the religions, philosophies, and worldviews of multiple entire civilizations from scratch and not have them be a bit hokey.
This was one of the deepest moments of the show.
which is amazing cause that show had so many deep thoughtful moments
One of the best ever episodes of Babylon 5.
only here from my mindless scrolling to see Pieder Devrees...
dune.fandom.com/wiki/Piter_de_Vries/DE
Brad Dourif is one of those few actors who just draws your attention to him - like a magnet.
I am pleased he got a chance to play - in essence - a 'good guy' on B5.
☮
I noticed your profile image, Marvin the robot. Did you ever see the 6 part BBC television series Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy?
Same thing with Jeffrey Combs. A Psi Corp who just wanted to be a pilot.
He wasn't alone, Peter, James and John were with Him, but we're asleep.
He was alone enough hat he could have left without disturbing anyone. He ould have postponed ore even avoided his crucifixion. That is the point of the story.
We are asleep but not in the way you think.
Mira RIP. 😢 Gone way too soon beyond the Rim...
Almost like revisiting a moment that was a shared joyful experience ….. thank you to everyone who produced this in any way.
J. Michael Straczynski and crew deserve our everlasting gratitude.
@@OpusBuddly possibly the greatest thing about this series was that it was a human experience , full of failure but never giving up , humans always trying to improve.
Oh lord the auto generated subtitles, delenns beaver light
A Dellen flashing beaver :D
"I really appreciate your taking this
time to sea my ambassador to land among
my beaver lights is considered an hour
to aid any prune sneeker in his request
do you mind if I record it..." 😂🤣
Wasn't he that one guy who played a Betazed psychopathic killer on Voyager?
He's a murderer here also
Yep...also the voice of Chucky in the original Child's Play.
He was in the original Dune also.
One of his earliest roles was in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"
Yes. As Sfdebris said of him...'who you might remember from your nightmare's'
The Minbari seem to have a similar spiritual understanding as Carl Sagan, that aero are the universe observing itself and our an extension of the natural processes all around us. As I have grown older I have found myself drifting towards such a feeling. Personally I have noticed that eastern religions like Buddhism and Shinto seem to emphasize man being but only a part or the world around him, a world view I find to be more in tune with reality than the Christian ideal of humanity being something uniquely special among all else.
Brad Dourif is a hell of an actor, alas an underrated artist
This was the difference between DS9's religious theme and Babylon 5. DS9 was just a facade of piety almost false B5's look within was beseeching and self aware.
The best science fiction always explores what it means to be human with tremendous impact and emotional content.
Not a religious person but I feel deeply for Minbari culture & belief! I think I'd want to be a Minbari because 2/3 of their culture (the Warrior caste might not be strong in belief cause they enjoy destroying beings) believe in a peaceful & serene & vibrant future with no war no death no madness! That is why I love the Minbari sooo much!
I created a character for the City of Heroes MMO that essentially embodied the Minbari views on the universe and the soul.
Trying to explain his existence and concept in character was both the most difficult and most rewarding thing I've ever done in my 40+ years as a roleplayer.
I think that with Jedi Fallen order examining a bit that the Jedi fell due to clinging to dogma was a great thing to explore. I like how Delenn immediately focuses on the core of belief and its meaning, and disregards any standards or dogma, because at the heart belief shouldn’t be repetition and .... It should be something that makes us feel fulfilled, to be better, and to believe in a power or grasp of the universe bigger than ourselves. This is also imporitneat because with the presence dictatorships of theocratic nature, the best known example being Iran, they often use religious dogma and scripture to gain a position of power.
So does a preacher paid 5 million a year with a free mansion and Gulfstream jet. Preach the dogma and forgetting the true meaning that is at the heart of Christianity. What religion doesn't have those of false face, yet still there are those who strive for better.
Very respectful. I appreciate that.
I still think that when Kosh revealed himself to those in the garden, someone from Earth should have shouted out, "Jesus Christ!"
RIP Mira Furlan 😭🌹💓
It's very interesting that G'Kar uses the same analogy, but uses it to explain a very different concept. To the Mimbari, it's used to express a spiritual concept of the soul as an extension of a higher power, the universe, separate from the individual. With G'Kar, the source of the light is from within, and defined by the person and their search for truth and god. Two very different philosophical approaches.
Thank you for your comment. I haven't watched Babylon 5 since the episodes aired on UPN over 23 years ago.
such great moments in this show
and as we see later in the episode.......he had the courage in abundance
2022 and still as profound
A better answer to her is a deep personal relationship with the creator of the universe along with having principles that help to make our lives better and more fulfilling.
Another answer that our God although seeing man as imperfect gave up that which was most precious to him in order to save those who would love him and put faith in him.
The Universe is self-aware and engaged in a search for meaning.... 42!
What do you get if you multiply six by nine?
0:33 Interestingly enough, when Kosh got angry with Sheridan and started to gather his strenght, Babylon 5's registered an energy spike, while while bridge staff saying they cannot locate it as it "a non localized phenomenom."
Just realized that my personal philosophy is basically mimbari.
Delenn and Lennier would understand the story in the context of the Third Principle of Sentient Life.
scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/9511/what-are-the-principles-of-sentient-life
в Вавилоне сплошная гегельщина... печаль.
das Абсолют?
@@OpusBuddly Идея мирового духа, который себя осознаёт через материю, а потом стряхнёт её как пыль со всеми вытекающими. В Вавилоне только часть этой концепции показана явно.
The basis of Minbari is both Greek and Hindu. Ironically, if we ,each of us, see ourselves as a reflection of the source, our difference leading to conflict would be minimized. Tolerance would be the word. This understanding is also a reflection of the IDIC in Star Trek...Indeed!
Brad Douriff will always be good ol Chucky to me!! 😄😄😄😄
And Piter De Vries, to others who indulge in Sci-fi... ;-)
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
My own belief system has evolved to something like the Minbari philosophy.
Mine too, about 20 years ago.
RIP Mira
Farewell Ambassador.
The irony, is the Minbari Philosophy is the same as every hermit every mystic every shaman, we all know the truth, we are here to learn and grow, that is the purpose of all of us, we are not separate beings we are one being struggling to understand itself, we are not these bodies we are pieces of a larger being split in infinite directions having a temporary human experience. This is the codex of spirituality, learn it and understand it. You will learn that Religion isn't the answer it only breeds more questions. There is no holy book, there are no demands of loyalty, there are no totemic gods, no right way of thinking. Every creature in the universe knows right from wrong, religions teach you to ignore that knowledge. Spirituality breeds answers, it is the book in each heart.
@SOCIALMEDIAISWEIRD did you even read what culvea wrote? Or are you so blinded by your dogma that you just can't understand anything else but your dogma? It helps to have an open heart and mind!!!
@SOCIALMEDIAISWEIRD silly human, god does not write books!!! People do!!! Hahaha hahaha hahaha!!!!!
My favorite moment of my favorite TV show.
I was told that J. Michael Stracynsky borrowed the concept from Buddhism.
@@OpusBuddly So I have heard, the Minbari belief that is. But it's my favorite because Brother Edwards reply to the Ambassador Delenn's question is the best television depiction of Christian belief I have ever seen. The later scene, where Brother Theo tells Brother Edward, "If you ask God to forgive your sins, he knows what they are, even if you've forgotten, Leave it in His hands." is just as good.
Brad Dourif is one of my favorite actors.
Although he looks like Beavis grew up.
Young Wormtongue seems like a nice guy.
Huh? Oh...Piter de Vries the mentat.
@@OpusBuddly Happily met the man briefly about 20 years ago.
Who would have imagined chucky as being religious.
Few of us would have had that courage.
A thought exercise. I listened to this scenes garden of Gethsemane and I started thinking about the Battle of the Line. Those human pilots and soldiers went out there that day sacrificing themselves for, as Londo put it, humanity's "arrogance and stupidity all in the same package", because a couple of war wins and expanded sphere of influence made humans believe they can just go anywhere, and do whatever they wanted without respect of who and what is out there. The pilots didn't have to fight the Minbari that, they could have run as defensive escorts for the surviving ships, but they chose to stay as a front line to give humanity a chance to escape.
I hadnt thought of what Delen asked until I watched this. Afterwards I decided it had to be The Good Samaratin or the Prodical Son
Brad Dourif is s great actor!!! He can really sell a character.
I love B5 and all the clips. But I wish they where labeled for season and episode.
I should have thought of that. S03E04 Passing Through Gethsemane
babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Passing_Through_Gethsemane
I believe this is the first time that I see a comparison between schools of thought.
In all the television I have watched this one is the only one that speaks of the most important tenet of Christianity. that Christ died to save us from our sins. If you truly believe this then you are Christian no matter other fripperies or ritual is added. And Brad Dourif is so good in this scene.
It's often noted how JMS is an atheist but treated all religions with great respect and understanding, as well as the underlying concept of spirituality as evidenced in the fictional religions and philosophies he created for other species. (However, based on his own comments, the Minbari philosophy may be the closest he comes to spirituality himself - an idea that he feels just maybe, might be true.)
One thing to understand about Stracsynski's writing on religion however, that puts it into an important perspective, is that he is not a placid appreciator of religions. He is rather quite critical of them and the way human beings have used them in perverted ways to further persecution, create harm, and to generate strife and war.
JMS framing of religion in Babylon 5 is, in a sense, a way of shaming humans who use religion toward destructive ends. He makes a good-faith argument for various religions and for the good that religion could potentially bring to society to highlight how much people have failed to apply religion positively in real life. The story of Christ highlighted in this scene, for example, would absolutely represent the genuine core of the Christian mythology JMS finds valuable and enriching to the human condition - with absolutely none the other bullshit various self-professed Christians have bolted onto and around that core to justify the terrible things they do to others and even themselves.
I live in the south (georgia) and here, they think Jesus and God are perfect beings. While God may well be (IDK i never met him/her/it/they), Jesus was not perfect, in that he had questioned his fathers plan. Doesn't take away anything from his accomplishments, he feared death, a very human thing to do. Back to the Southern baptists, they are always trying to get me to bend and accept God (I'm a non believer) and claim that both God and Jesus are perfect, i should be on the perfect side. that argument usually shuts them up, for a year or so
You are missing the theological point that Jesus and God are one in the same.
One of the tenants of Christianity is the concept of the Trinity.
God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one in the same.
@@xandersnyder7214, I understand that fully, The subject was about Jesus as he lived on earth. In my interpretation, even though they may be one in the same, Jesus was separate at the time. How else would he be talking to God (His father), in the first place
Also one other thing, there is a passage in the bible (yes i went to church early in life) that says, "I am the light and the way, no man shall enter except through me". If i misquoted, i am sorry it's been a while. the way i interpret that passage, is Jesus is the ultimate judge, I highly doubt the Trinity is of one being, that can do it all. I mean time has to effect everyone (Even God) there is another scripture "Heaven and Earth shall fade away, but my word is eternal" this to me means that time if finite to all, even God. BTW, that last one was what made me question religion, in the first place. If Heaven can fade away, then it might not exist at all
wasnt that monk in star trek voyager?
Yes he was. memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Brad_Dourif
Yes, playing another character seeking and finding redemption for the terrible things he did.
He got his brain munched in Alien ressurection too
@Mobley House Video He broke Dr. Yueh's conditioning, played by Dean Stockwell (played Al in Quantum Leap... And he also technically played the devil in the same series... Once. I only mention it, because it was one of my favorite episodes).
Gurney was played by Sir Patrick Stewart.
And Grima Wormtounge in The second Lord Of The Rings-movies: The Two Towers.
I do not recall this actor's name, but I know many of his characters in the past that he played were "bad guys". It was nice to watch him get to play the "good guy" role, and be a focus of a story for once. Just a nice change for him and I for one am glad someone allowed him to break out of his type casting.
Brad Douriff
Yeah, it's funny when you meet someone much loved for their villainous characters, and then see how suprised they are when you tell them you loved their rare good guy characters. See also, Jeffrey Combs, who ALSO appeared in the first season of B5, as the Psi-Corp member of EYES.
Have to mention Marshall Teague, who was the secondary villain in Roadhouse, as he played the honorable Ta'lon on B5
@@JnEricsonx Even in DS9 (kinda funny that he appeared in both shows) he did play Weyoun 6, the "defective" one who was against the Dominion's war. To think that for most of DS9 he played a cunning, conniving second-in-command to the Dominion and yet in that one episode he played such a nice version of that same character.
Later Edward tells Theo that he does not know what other crimes he may have committed and that he is a murderer and there must be justice Theo replies If you ask God to forgive your sins he know what they are even if you don't
A very well thought out seen and episode, I fear if the reboot happens that such will not be the case again.
I dred the thought of a reboot with today's superficial writing.
We are the universe, perceiving itself
It's a pity many of forgotten the compassion.
The fact that anyone believes in "sin, punishment, test, judgement" is beyond ludicrous. That's when I knew religions are cults, businesses only.
Narrator: He did.
Minbari rock!
The Minbari follow pantheism with some Zen/Chan stuff tossed in.
RIP forever B5
I didn't even remember Brad Dourif being in this.
Teilhard de Chardin in a nutshell.
This as oposed to star trek where religion os seen as the bane of existance
I love b 5
"We believe that universe is ... wait a minute, are you a human, because we wanted to kill you all of you ten years ago, so advanced and spiritual we were."
Ryszard Nanke They didn't say they killed humans, because they were so advanced and spiritual... don't forget that humans attacked them when they just wanted to show respect.
So the first contact (both sides are to be blame, with humans pulling the trigger first) goes tragic and what the most advanced of young races decided to do ? They decided to commit genocide. They decided to kill 11 bilion people just for what few humans did. And the only think which finally stoped them, even if in the end they were tired, they wanted to stop, and they knew they were wrong (but they have no courage to admit it), was presence of "Minbari souls" in human bodies. Just like so called spiritually advanced people decided that live and souls matters only, when they are Minbari.
At some point of time
"Come on, lets go kill all humans, lets burn their homeword, and lets erase bilions years of evelotion"
Couple of years later
"We believe all klive is sacred, and the universe is trying to figure it self out."
Minbari are worse then Dilgars and Delenn is worse than Death Walker. Dilgars were trying to avoid extintion, and Deathwalker was only trying to save her people.
Ryszard Nanke Rewatching the clip still doesn't explain where the "We believe all life is sacred..." comes in. They simply said that the soul is a projection and the mortal body is only a "placeholder" which can be perceived by other mortal races... and the soul is just a fraction of the universe, which wants to figure itself out. They don't really say anything about the sanctity of life, and even if they did in other episodes it was only on the sanctity of minbari life. (By law they are forbidden to kill each other, that's why they stopped their attack on earth when they discovered Valen's soul inside Sinclair). Oh, and on the genocide: knowing them they at least had a coucinl meeting, which decided what would they do about the attack and the insult, however because they think honor is everything, I would actually believe why would they think it's unacceptable and unforgiveable.
So... what was you point again?
@@ryszardnanke3860 Delenn said it best - _Minbari are at their very best when together, and at their very worst when together._
You think Deelen didn't spend the rest of her life trying to make amends for her part in that war?
What Delenn is describing is close to Brahmanism - not much similarity to Zen Buddhism at all there. There was a nod to Zen in the pilot episode.
Delenn : sins ? what sins?
Listening to this - I am reminded of G'Kar talking about the search for god and how he uses the same "light on the wall" analogy that Lennier does.
ua-cam.com/video/9VvbNqU_HaA/v-deo.html
Well, Babylon 5 was meant to be a diplomatic station, certain ideas must've been exchanged offscreen.
the minbari are like yogi;)
Conversation With God.
😍
This episode is so depressing. :( Just powerful writing.
Yes, and no. The ending always hits me like a ton of bricks. But calls me into a better place.
Why is this mentat here?
Is there a Minbari religion? In the same way many people say their religion is Jedi?
images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf
tyson31415 thanks. I'll check it out
The Minbari did not separate religion and science, very like the ancient Egyptians and Atlanteans.
This truly was a very powerful moment and a very deep and powerful subject that I'm afraid we will never see again in this so politically correct liberal environment that exists in Hollywood today. The one time they actually truly teach what real Christian morales are about. They are so lost in today's liberal universe.
You mean this record of crystianity love ?
markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html
Yes we keep records of your SO LOVING AND PEACEFULL COEXISTION!!!
Nereknu Vamnic I did not say all who call themselves Christians are Christians. Unfortunately they are far more who claim Christianity but do evil in Christianity's name than true Christian's. You took my comment out of contexts was referring to the morale values of Christianity and those who hold dear to them. But like all of you on the left you want to make general observations and say just because this group is bad then all mist be.
Dear Ken Jett
I am a left liberal atheist and I appreciate the words and their meaning.
I have friends who are moslem, buddist or christian and despite the different label share a core believe that the other is a brother, a sister to them them, that it matters what you do to them and that you are supposed to love the other not to hate.
I do not have a higher deighty ( maybe I am a Minbari) but I do not think evil, I do not speak evil and I do not do evil.
You recognize each tree on its fruits, each! The christians and the atheists ones.
puckthebear I like to say that was very well said/spoken. As A Christian we are to love one another even our enemies. Also we are suppose to do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Unfortunately so few really follow those commandments. LIKE you said at the core almost all religious beliefs have a very similar beginning. The differences have came with the eons of time and culture. To be honest man has corrupted religious knowledge and faith and I believe this is at least in part what was being talked about in this video. One of the most moving emotional points in the series for me.
I agree with you
Man tainted the good, the wisdom and love in order to gain power and control. I would say most worship the gods mammon and me and turn the world into hell.
But I have can also say that I have been fortunate enough to meet and know good and kind persons which gives me hope.
Scenes like this and others seem to be like very special harmonic wave, it meets your heart, your soul ( I am an atheist, but I have soul!) and you feel it!
And clearly the Minbari are wrong given the Soul Hunters capture souls from bodies.
Sooooo the mimbari are Vedantins
Quite Neo-Platonic to be particular. As the idea of the "universe as a self consciouness process" is found in the writing of Plotinus.
Well it's only nonsense to people who don't believe it, haha
The prophet Ezekiel warned that a righteous man could not atone for the sins of the wicked, no innocent person can die for the sins of the wicked!
Yechezkel - Ezekiel - Chapter 18
20 The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.
23 Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?
24 And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.
Finally, the prophets loudly declared that the contrite prayer of the penitent sinner replaces the sacrificial system. Therefore, atonement for unintentional sins today is expiated through devotional supplication to God, the Merciful One.
In fact, in the third chapter of Hosea, the prophet foretold with divine exactness that the nation of Israel would not have a sacrificial system during the last segment of Jewish history until the messianic age. Hosea declares,
Hoshea - Hosea - Chapter 3
4 For the children of Israel shall remain for many days, having neither king, nor prince, nor sacrifice, nor pillar, nor ephod nor teraphim.
5 Afterwards shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God and David their king, and they shall come trembling to the Lord and to His goodness at the end of days.
If the prophet is testifying that the nation of Israel will indeed be without a sacrificial system during their long exile until the messianic age, what are we to use instead? How are the Jewish people to atone for unintentional sin without a blood sacrifice during their bitter exile? What about all the animal sacrifices prescribed in the Book of Leviticus? Can the Jewish people get along without animal offerings? Missionaries claim they cannot.
The Bible disagrees.
For this reason, the teaching highlighted in Hosea 14:2-3 is crucial. In these two verses, Hosea reveals to his nation how they are to replace the sacrificial system during their protracted exile. The prophet declares that the Almighty wants us to “render for bulls the offering of our lips.” Prayer is to replace the sacrificial system. Hosea states,
Hoshea - Hosea - Chapter 14
2 Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity
3 Take words with yourselves and return to the Lord. Say, "You shall forgive all iniquity and teach us [the] good [way], and let us render [for] bulls [the offering of] our lips.
Melachim I - I Kings - Chapter 8
46 If they sin against You, for (there is) no man who does not sin, and You will be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, and their captors will carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near.
47 And they shall bethink themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness.'
48 And they shall return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land, which You gave to their fathers, the city that You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your Name.
49 And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause.
50 And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.