Hey Andre. Great video. I love the content. I have 10 years experience in manufacturing and have also worked as a professional guitar tech (for an actual company on payroll). Some things for you to consider. Boutique builders pay more for wood than brand name manufacturers. Manufacturers like Kiesel, Fender, PRS, Gibson, etc.... They buy wood in bulk and get it cheaper because of buying larger quantities. A lot of them even dry their own wood. Boutique manufacturers don't buy in bulk and most wouldn't have to ability to kiln their own wood so they have to order it dry and ready to go. This is also true with hardware. Buying in bulk is always cheaper. Also, consider the manufacturing process. Is the guitar completely hand built or are there a lot of CNC machines involved that speed up the process? Kiesel has CNC machines. This applies to finishing as well. Some manufacturers automate finishing and some don't. Boutique builders are more likely to use routing templates and routers and do it the old fashioned way. Big manufactures will automate which is quicker and more accurate. Also, what is outsourced. Outsourcing is a huge factor in the final price. Some manufactures produce their own pickups. Some outsource. This would apply to all the hardware of course. For instance, PRS manufactures their own hardware and electronics where as a lot of them don't. They buy from another manufacturer. Another thing to consider is the country the guitar is manufactured in. Not only because labor wages are different across the globe, but also because of import and export fees. Where you live and where the guitar is coming from affects the final price. Ill just sum up with some bullet points *Bulk purchasing power *Handmade vs CNC *Import/Export fees *Outsourcing vs In House Production *Taxes - Large manufacturers employ more people and the taxes work out quite differently *Labor wages *Turn around time I hope this gives you some things to think about or maybe some things you might not have thought of. There are a lot of variables but as you mentioned supply and demand will set the final price. People will pay what they are willing to pay. A company will factor in all these things and let the market dictate the price and hopefully it is a profitable endeavor. Cost of materials plus labor wages with taxes factored in, they set their profit margins and hope the customer will accept the deal. I personally think some of it is just plain gimmicky. But to each their own. I wouldn't be caught dead buying a 2000 dollar Fender when I can build one of equal quality from parts (partscaster) for a fraction of the cost. Hope this helps. Take care.
Would also like to add that I really like Paul Reed Smith's philosophy about manufacturing. He uses CNC's where the quality would be better and he uses handcrafting when it would be better or more appropriate. He just wants whatever produces the best quality. There are just some things that a human cannot due as accurately as a CNC machine and he uses people when its something a machine just cannot do. I imagine one day there won't be any human hands involved in the manufacturing process but we are not quite there yet.
@@andrefludd Also Knaggs was at PRS for 25 years and Suhr was a senior master builder at the fender custom shop. Anderson worked for Schecter and Fano repaired guitars until he decided to start building. I don't know how hands on any of those folks are in the process now, but I can see how something like Suhr leaving Fender and doing his own thing could be a value add for some.
This is a great point. But as a consumer, I would want to pay as low as possible and get the best as possible. Standard economics. You cannot tell me a handbuilt is better than a cnc/handfinished guitar.
I want you to play and review as many of these boutique guitars as possible and come up with your own theories for or against. In my opinion you're the most thorough and honest reviewer in the UA-cam world, so refreshing to see!
Thank you! That would be very fun indeed....so far, I've bought every guitar myself and I am not rich...so hopefully in the future a few companies will send me some stuff to try, as long as they are okay with me being honest.
@@andrefludd And there lies the problem with UA-cam, honesty apparently is a bad business model, companies want promotion rather than evaluation. I watch you more for your style rather than the product, I hate parkers and mayones but I've watched all the vids lol
As a Suhr (Sir) owner my thoughts are fit and finish as well as specs. Your getting Fender custom shop level attention to detail with modern details as mentioned. Mine have a elliptical neck carve, compound radius, stainless 24 frets, fancy top etc. but it’s a 3k guitar. I feel with Suhr you are paying for years of development in products and improving the classic designs without losing some of the classic looks.
As a fellow Suhr owner, my feelings are exactly the same. I have a lot of respect for John Suhr and his team and their ability to build great guitars. I'm especially impressed with their customer service, they've been very helpful in answering all kinds of silly questions I've had about custom wiring possibilities. I'd also like to add that Suhr has a bit of a killer feature in their SSCII silent single coil system which they've been using in their guitars for a long time. They recommend that you stick with their own Suhr single coil pickups which the SSCII system is calibrated for, but you could in theory pop any old single coil into their guitars (just need to make sure that their polarity and wind is compatible with the SSCII) and the SSCII system will reduce their hum. This was a key factor for me when I was in the market for a new HSS recently, though I would really like to try some Zexcoils in it some day for comparison (@andrefludd your demo of your HSH Zexcoil Tribucker setup was very inspiring).
@@lexdon Custom Shop at Shecter Guitar Research used several different guages of coil wraps creating enhanced tonal qualities. I've played their SSH Nick Johnston Signature (made in CA at their Custom Shop, not imported as their "Diamond" $899 line made in Indonesia). I felt the uniqueness was worth their list price of $3,600, I can't afford it but it's definitely worth it. It sounds that much better than anything I've experienced since 1962. I would have loved to record it and verify it, statistically.
This is a good example of why companies and people invest in and protect the Brands, because they have value. The lesson here is that if you are buying to play (that is me), then shop for Quality not Brand - but do not be surprised if your resale value is lower. Even better to buy Quality less known instruments second hand and let someone else pay the depreciation. If you want to retain resale value - you will have to pay the Brand Premium.
Additionally, comparing a Kiesel to a Suhr is like comparing a Camaro to a Porsche. If you're looking on paper, they will have similar performance, both are faster than their contemporaries... but the intangibles of precision material choices, pedigree, and resale value all come into play. I've purchased several Kiesel guitars and they do check a lot of the boxes, but none of them have just "sang" or resonated like a Suhr or core PRS. You can't put steering feel or exhaust note in an automotive brochure, but once you experience that feel and sound, carving around a twisty corner, that smile on your face.... and "Yes.... there it is....." ☮❤🎶
Relative, many may say the prefer a Friedman gtrs, and many would say a Shabat Gtr is better than a Friedman.... have many friends that owned a Surhr and them got a Kiesel and are happier.... at certain level is subjective..in my opinion a shabat gtr is superior that Kiesel and Suhr..
This is a really interesting video, and it made me think - I honestly believe most of the people who build these guitars charge whatever they think they can get away with because they know most buyers make emotional decisions when buying a guitar rather than analyzing the costs involved as you're doing here. I'm including myself in this because I've bought and sold a lot of guitars since the 1980's and in my earlier years I was guilty of buying guitars based on everything other than whether or not they actually suited me as a player. I think many people fall in love with the idea of a certain style of guitar and buy it based on how it makes them feel - and I've done that too. This is why signature models from the bigger companies exist as well - people buy the sizzle not the steak. They're buying an idea or an emotion rather than purchasing a guitar that's really going to suit them as a player (of whatever level). I think that's the psychology behind why these makers charge the amounts of money they do; they know people will love a certain type of guitar so make something that suits a certain type of buyer rather than making something that suits a certain kind of player. I could be wrong but I think there's definitely something psychological happening when people decide they want these 'vintage style' guitars.
Love your analytical outlook ! I have an LsL Tele style guitar . It was 3 grand . Here’s why I was willing to pay that much . 1) I’m a lefty, and Fender, and Gibson don’t offer the same colors and features for left handed players. 2) I got a custom shop experience , a one on one relationship with the builder. LsL features stainless steel frets , on a quarter sawn roasted neck . Nitro finish . Still less than a Fender custom shop guitar! There are now so many great builders out there, making great guitars, and prices are all over the map!
For Les Pauls, I think there's a Melody Maker all the way at the bottom of the stack, which is like, one or two normal single coils. The Les Paul Junior has a bridge P90, and the Les Paul Special has two P90s. All three of these models have the slab style body. The Studio, Standard, and Deluxe are all carved tops with varying levels of binding, wood figuring, and inlay differences. Generally they get prettier as the trim level goes up, but they're all a pair of humbuckers with two volumes and two tones. On top of those is the Les Paul Deluxe, which has three humbuckers and often also has a Bigsby trem system.
You are correct. Supply and demand, along with fit, finish and the attention to detail that a hands-on small builder offer, would inflate such prices. And, considering some of my favorite guitars are Fender-style parts guitars that my brother puts together as a hobbyist, there are a lot of options out there. Fun topic. Looking forward to your continued adventures in this wonderful, guitar nerd territory. 🤙🎸
So much of the music we love was made with traditional guitars and amps. To be honest i fell in love with a telecaster recently that makes me want to pick up the guitar and play, in the end thats what really counts
You hit the nail on the head with the who and the what is in each build. If your instrument is pushing the boundary of a new technology or design language it will push the price up exponentially based on the person building or the availability of unique elements. Years ago I spent quite a bit of money to start experimenting with fanned fret technology... a custom neck from Novax, a hand made one-of-a-kind 2-Tek bridge, but as the concept was more quickly adopted than most new guitar ideas, now one could purchase an entire finished guitar for the same money. Likewise, flash forward a few years and now there are many more options available for off-the-shelf-parts, instead of a single vendor option... for example the Ratio tuners you previously mentioned liking (I agree, they're awesome) are only available from one company, so when they're in short supply or if discontinued, prices can shoot up very quickly.
I wasn't impressed by the Ratios I tried. The mechanical action was inconsistent between tuners -- on one, I could actually feel the gears grinding. I love the concept but based on that experience, I've stuck with Hipshots or Gotohs.
Excellent video! And the Parker in the beginning isn't helping my 20+year GAS for a Parker! I was also super curious a few months back, and decided to give a partscaster a shot. I learned a ton and the guitar is amazing! For Strats/Teles: BFF. Brand, Finish, Frets. Everything else is commoditized. Here is an example Tele style guitar: - Body (Warmoth) - Neck (Warmoth) - Nut (Graphtech) - Tuners (Hipshot) - Bridge (Gotoh) - Pickups (Fender) - Pickguard (Warmoth) - Control plate (Obsidian) - Pots/switch (Obsidian) - Knobs (Ernie Ball) - String ferrules (Fender) - Neckplate (Fender) - String tree (Graphtech) There are only 2 items above that are NOT coming from some other manufacturer: - Body - Neck For these, there are a ton of factories with state of the art CNC machines. These are consistent and about as close to perfect as you can get. They will mate perfectly, and intonation will be a breeze due to the perfected geometry. If you want a simple, eye-pleasing finish, throw a coat or two of Odie's oil on the body. File the frets if you'd like balled ends, and lightly sand the fretboard for rolled edges. I did exactly this recently and the finished product absolutely smokes my American Fender, which I consider to be a fantastic player. But -- My partscaster would probably sit around for a year or two if I tried to sell it, and I'd probably lose money. Bottom line -- if you're comfortable with a simple oiled finish and you're willing to spend 30 minutes on the frets, go the route I did. You'll have a guitar that plays like other $2k-$4k guitars for less than $1k, but you'll have a hard time selling it. Reasons to not go this route: - You love a particular brand - You're considering resale - You have gas over some particular color/relic/etc property and must have it
A lot of these brands are endorsed by famous players. Steve Stevens with Knaggs, Mark Knopfler with Suhr, Martin Barre from Jethro Tull, played Andersons, now he plays PRS. Another great boutique builder is Collings, a small workshop making electric and acoustic guitars and mandolins. I believe Joe Walsh has been seen playing the occasional Kiesel.
This is a great topic. One that is nearly impossible to quantify because these types of guitars are primarily emotional purchases. Owned brands such as PRS, Ibanez J Custom, TA, Suhr, ESP Custom Shop, Mayones, among others. For these boutique builders I’ve always held the perspective that craftsmanship, heritage, and aesthetics are what differentiate the products. Any one of these can give a brand huge pricing power. Guitarists are picky (myself included). I’ve simply bonded with Suhr more than any brand and am willing to pay a seemingly crazy premium for it. It just feels right in my hands, better than any of the other brands I mentioned. Materials are mostly a minor cost. It’s the sum of parts, labor, and brand from which we can derive the guitar’s value. This is not to say a $1500 guitar could not replicate this same experience, but I can count on Suhr to consistently deliver a product that I bond with.
Nice video Andre! I subbed. One aspect of the cost you didn't mention is the price you pay for the brandname on the headstock. This is where marketing swipes away all objective arguments. As we know: marketing always wins, when performed well. We buy the 'story': a masterbuilder leaves Fender and sarts building guitars that he always thought Fender should make, another guy hand builds guitars in a small shed in the middle of the Canadian woods and Brad Pitt accidentally discovers him and plays his guitars,...Every expensive brand has their own story. Then: brand name manufacturers have a totally different business structure than luthiers, different overhead costs. Luthiers will employ other luthiers to help them build guitars. Manufacturers employ people who need a job. Buying furniture from a skillesd carpenter will costs more then shopping at IKEA, altough IKEA stuff is sometimes of very good quality . It's a different world
I work for a music store that sells a lot of Knaggs guitars, as my boss works closely with the company. In your videos you make it abundantly clear that you love modern, sleek guitars and I can say with some certainty that most Knaggs guitars probably wouldn't appeal to you, as they can be quite heavy and most of them come with a really glossy finish. Most of the people who buy them are already playing old school guitars like 50s style Les Paul's and others that are similar. That being said the craftsmanship is still top notch and they come set up perfectly from the factory, you don't need to adjust anything out of the box. Hopefully some of this info is of use to you.
andre-that was a great, curious and earnest grouping of questions. i appreciated your questions and your thoughts on the legitimacy of boutique solid body guitar (in vintage-styles) pricing. i am not a luthier, nor do i have the vast experience of demoing hundreds of models as you do, but as a solo artist and designer of 30 years, i can somewhat get on board with what a small custom shop would charge for their time, skill and materials. for one, shops like the ones you feature probably don’t have the buying power to purchase hardware and electronics like huge manufacturers do, not to mention the bulk shipping discounts, wood, etc etc. i think, another great andre fludd question would be, how do companies such as gibson and fender justify selling vingtage bodies for $9,999+, where we know the manufacturing techniques/technology are quite streamlined and cost-effective, and with companies with such buying power, we know their materials, electonics, wood costs are much lower than say, a custom/boutique builder could acquire them for. i would think the boutiques should get more for their uniquely handcrafted builds than a mass-produced gibson les paul? as an example, go to eddie’s guitars, “electric/gibson” and notice the 25-plus “custom” les pauls for $14,699.00? how do they justify that?
Retailers - Keisel is direct to consumer. Cuts out the retailer cost. Also, as a custom order is essentially pre sold, there are no storage/warehousing costs associated if it was a slow sale
As far as pickup cost, some high end traditional style guitars (Collings for example) come with Ron Ellis pickups, which can cost up to $850 per set, so that's a big add on (there are of course cheaper options). Also, I'm not that familiar with the finish Kiesel uses, but most traditional guitars come with nitrocellulous finishes, which are not cheap and labor intensive (and toxic if not careful). There are other factors of course like extremely high wood quality, super light ash, high grade rosewood, etc that drive price. Have a great day.
$850 for a set of pickups??? Hell, he should have charged $8000! It's wire around magnets, how much can you differentiate wire around magnets??? I've hand wound pickups before, there's nothing to it and they sound great! Sometimes I wonder how Seymour Duncan can get $100 for his pickups but I always buy 'em because you can get a good bit of your money back out of them when you sell them, and they're easy to sell because of the brand!
The law of diminishing return. There is a point, where the increased cost greatly outweighs the incremental improvement in quality. I will say, that a majority, of what you’re paying for, is experience and attention to detail. Dennis Fano started both Fano and Novo guitars. He’s a renowned builder, who has a small team, whom he has personally guided and informed their level of work. An amazing assembly/setup, with quality components, will make even cheap guitars play and sound great. Rather than buy a stock jazzmaster for 1500, and then pay upwards of $1000 for the mastery bridge/vibrato, upgraded pickups, plek job, fret job, upgraded/perfect cut nut, etc., most people would rather pay the cost to have it done right from the get go.
I should have also mentioned diminishing returns. I totally agree with you. I was just looking at a parts jazzmaster build, and I realized I was already getting close to the price of a used Novo without the guarantee it would be great.
I have a Suhr Classic S Antique. It’s basically a super Strat with a light relic. It looks vintage but it’s actually quite modern. Compound radius, stainless steel frets, noiseless pickups, etc. you might like it. It feels almost surgical. I won’t tell you that nothing can beat it but I’ll say it plays fairly effortlessly. If you’re in the NYC area you can play and demo mine without having to shell out your own money.
Your opinions about these pricing schemes, Dr. Fludd, are Right-On. Since 1962, I frequented "Guitar Gallery" on Wabash Street in Chicago (and guitar stores open longer than "Lyon and Healy," also on Wabash in Chicago). On the way up the stairs are photos of all the major musicians filling stadiums and premier venues (Beatles included), with their lugubrious written comments. I have seen and played handmade guitars of different shapes and custom one-off features. The prices were interstellar and astronomical. I never figured it out. I always had the highest ratio available, best gold tuners that I always meticulously installed myself. I know the economics of the individual components that make a fine guitar. Assembled and played regularly, it may be possible to be fall magically in love with an expensive guitar based on literal qualities (better yet quantified). The best reason to manufacture and price any guitar far above what is reasonable, is to create a limited niche market that only rich people can afford. Anybody can be sold stuff that is way overpriced. It never made economic sense to me. I owned my quality benchmark standard; a Martin D-28 (1971). I experienced the richness mellowing of the sound of a much played (hours a day) guitar from the age of 30 to 50-years old. That was the richest sound in my experience. I sold it to pay a personal debt and lost track of it. I bought it new for $666 and was able to suffer a $3,300 penalty for it because bridge placement was a factory quality issue during this period. I felt it was worth much more, perhaps even $4,000 to $5,000, even with the intonation issues. Nothing I ever played sounded richer and more full. New Taylors came close. No boutique models ever came close. I love your reviews and share a similar skeptical economic standard of morality or honesty.
Love this topic!!! Yes, they are..only for one reason though imho. So much less labor to not pore fill, and do fine finish in a boutique setting. Great marketing/cost cutting angle by the boutiques. The acoustic equivalent is Iris. That said, the labor on finely finished boutiques is insane. I have multiple luthier friends that spend countless hours on minute details on finely finished, well appointed instruments.
To understand how guitars are priced you need to understand how brand equity and value is calculated, as well as the important role reputation, brand perception and positioning plays in valuation. Whether a guitar is overpriced or "worth every cent" depends on many personal "emotional" factors and purchaser behaviours - some of which are by choice, whilst others cultivated by brand strategists and marketers.
@@andrefludd part of what makes TAs special is the buzz feiten tuning system, as well as the beautiful aesthetics of the tops. It's a shame their necks aren't more flat D shaped though (my neck preference)
to reinforce this though, there are some cheaper guitars with BFTS, and they can be retrofitted for a decent price. Also, Tom from TA defs has a team for sure.
I think the sticky nitro finishes cost the mfgs more to apply. Govt regulations probably has a lot to do with the increased cost as that chemical isn't environmentally friendly. Kinda like chrome plating these days. People who do it are few and far between. Dipping a guitar in hot plastic is liable to be a lot cheaper, but it won't age like the old ones. May not age at all if you don't use it to beat fence posts in the ground.
I think one thing your missing is that there's a segment of guitars that are looked at more as an investment then instrument. Right or wrong, and in my opinion beyond the supply and demand, that's what's driving the prices
That’s true for certain guitars, but a lot of people gig with the brands I mentioned. I feel like vintage fender of vintage gibson are the more investment based instruments.
Lets take a trip to the past for fun. In 1957 a Goldtop Les Paul Standard cost 247,50$ + 42,00$ for a case. Adjusted to inflation 1$ in 1957 is 10,53$ in 2022. 289,50 x 10,53 = 3057,12$ so they are not too far off in prices today. Les Paul Custom cost 375,00$ + 47,50$ for a case. You can find original dealer price lists online. I cant really speak on Suhr, Novo or any other replicas as havent owned any long term. Anyways i enjoy listening to your thoughts, youre well spoken and look at guitars very differently than me so its interesting. Thanks and have a good one.
The key thing is economy of scale. For a small builder that is measuring their annual sales in the tens or even hundreds, the costs are just going to be way higher. They have a lot of underlying basic costs that are much harder when you’re running a small custom shop. A much bigger place like Kissel (which have a full-blown factory with advanced CNC machines, and make a sizable numbers of guitars each year) let alone a massive industrial maker like Fender or Gibson, just have much better ability to spread some of those core costs across their whole range and thereby keep their prices to a bit of a more reasonable level. That being said, it’s almost impossible to find a USA made guitar here in the UK today for under the £2000 mark. You’re not getting more guitar. You’re just getting a guitar in a less economical way. It’s the same reason that you might pay more money for meat from a farmers’ market than you would down the supermarket. Is it worth it? Depends on what you’re after I guess. Back in 2016 I bought a cheap Charvel San Dimas Pro Mod, and to be honest that guitar is more than enough for anyone if all you want is a pragmatic instrument to play. But like many guitar players I like to own a few and I sometimes buy others. Most recently I dropped around £2k on a PJD (custom shop based in York, UK) and it’s a cracker. It’s super simple, offset with a fixed bridge. Nothing fancy. But I love the look and feel. And it sounds great to my ears. Was it “worth” it? I mean you could get an equally nicely playing guitar for ¼ the price. So, in some ways no. But at the same time, I love it. So yes?
Slightly sideways from the topic - from what I've heard, the devaluation tends to be higher with the boutique guitars, when compared to "big name" brands. Something to take into consideration if there is a possibility of reselling the guitar. This could affect the personal "value/cost" ratio.
Hello Mr. Fludd, One guitar that I wished that you would have spoken about would have been the Fender Telecaster. The reason being so that the item that is "being blueprinted" by many guitar manufacturers can have its details and cost mentioned,... along side the other mentioned guitars. And to comment to what another poster had mentioned, for my opinion, no CHILL background music please. : ) Another interesting observation to me, more "comments" than "likes" ... to me that seems to show a very engaging audience here. : ) Do have a good rest of the week.
Thanks Greg, that is a good point. Kind of unfair of me to mention tele as our example and not even discuss fender. I plan to do a lot about Fender in 2023. I honestly feel they are pretty good compared to other companies of their size.
Love your videos but the popping sound is really bad on recent videos. My guess is it’s happening while you’re tracking the audio in your DAW. That popping is often times a buffer issue or a driver issue. Your content is so good and it deserves great audio!
Knaggs all day long and twice on Sunday. They’re just the guitars FOR ME. I love how they play, how they sound and the company is small and pay great attention to detail.
That’s my strategy with all my guitars. I can fix the frets the nut bridge etc and upgrading electronics for a nominal price and I would have added $1k in manufacturer price.
I got to admit though, the Knaggs white guitar looks really cool...not $3650 cool, but still cool. All of Knaggs guitars are over priced though. Just because he used to work for PRS, makes his better? Tone is in the marketing I guess. Alder is a common tree in the Pacific Northwest. It's so common, they even have a town named after it in Washington State. Its not any special wood. Common like a weed. Warmoth has a problem of trying to pimp this wood as something special as well. It's a good wood for strats and soloists. Bright and responsive...But the wood should only be about $50 after the CNC machining. Even after paint, a good set of pickups costs more. Honestly, you can still get a great playing guitar for 1000 to 1500. It's all in the set-up. Kiesel have always been on my list though. I would definitely get one from them if I was in the market for a guitar.
We are having a hard time in Europe now. Months or years of wait to have even a Fender AV II or a Musicman Stingray Special. We're not even talking Cutom Shop or boutique brands here. I called my shop last week for a Suhr Pete Thorne Signature, and he told me that Suhr increased the brand from 3800 to 5800 euros, and I will have to wait for 2 years minimum. That's insane. Prices in EU are insane, delays are insane. A MusicMan Stingray Special is 4000 euros now.
You might be over looking that certain brands are charging a premium for the name on the head stock, yes a Suhr T-style guitar is not that much different than any other T-style guitar but if you want the name on the head stock to say Suhr then you pay whatever the manufacturer thinks that’s worth. Just like a pair of Jordan’s or a Rolex watch. There’s the sum of the materials and the labor involved (as you pointed out) but then there is the intrinsic value that comes from the brand name.
first thing I do when evaluating a guitar is check its weight, generally speaking lighter is better. the second thing I do when evaluating a guitar is check for playability which can be broken down into ergonomics and intonation and setup. obviously, more playable guitars with better intonation and setup are preferable. as far as economics goes, some guitars are overpriced for what you get, but very few guitars are underpriced for what you get. I've bought sold and traded more than 200 guitars, price and quality typically move in the same direction, I've owned some expensive instruments that were worth every penny and some budget guitars that exceeded their value proposition. guitars are things we love and even covet so rational decision making does not always factor into our guitar purchases.
you made some great points but i think your underestimating the cost a kiesel telecaster with similar specs. using the builder on the kiesel site, a one piece ash telecaster with a sunburst finish and hardcase would be $2134. the suhr's neck also has a pau ferro back which isn't a option on the keisel builder. the suhr listing is also from overseas so the exchange rate is probably contributing to the cost.
I don't like how much of the price of boutique guitars is the time it takes to do a relic job. I love a satin, worked in feel but not a relic. I feel its an easy way for a company to get out of doing a proper finish. I recently went to a large shop in Toronto, and was set on a Tom Anderson or Suhr. I left with a MusicMan BFR Valentine. Everything about it is perfect, and it looks like nothing else. It sings, unplugged and plugged in, and the flamed neck has a beautiful satin finish. The others were good too, but the non-relics felt better to me overall than those by Paoletti and Fender CS. I think im going to be focusing mainly on boutique brands from now on. Frank Bros is next on my list.
research and knowledge can go a long way.tom anderson was one of the main builders/movers at zion guitars in the 80s,i think.the brand isnt that well known,and old zion models can be found under 1000 dollars/pounds used,and they are technically,well some of them,tom anderson guitars before he formed his own brand.in the 80s/90s gary levinson was sort of seen as the then paul reed smith of the time,he added vsc switching systems etc was a luthier who listened to what guitarists wanted,levinson blade guitars were swiss company,made in japan to a very high standard,and were generally more expensive than fender counterparts at the time.played by many session guys at the time.the top mij models rh4 etc,distinguished by the fender style headstock/suhr type head for usa market,go used for about 1600,with other older mij blades being found under a 1000,and are far better spec,put together guitars than many that can be found now at high prices,i own a old mij blade,end of 90s blade moved to korea,and became more of a production line guitar,non fender headstock,a bit on par with fender mexico,but the earlier 80/90s blades were mostly hand made in japan,they like zion have a small following,but most youth/young players have never heard of them,or only know the later korea/china made blades.so if you know youre guitar history,you can find guitars on par with many of these big boutique,high priced guitars for much cheaper.g and l are another company that are more bang for the buck than fender,with modern style bridge,tone circuit etc after all ,they were leos last company,and he reckoned g and l with their tweaks,improvements,were the best guitars he made,though they still dont have the marketing clout,or sales of fender.then youve got the vintage heads,some dont want tweaks,improvements to the original designs lol g and l like keisel ,will build you a great guitar,to youre own personal spec/choice for far less than suhr/tom anderson/fender custom shop
I certainly understand (and share) your pricing questions. As another Tele example, I just received delivery of my Sire T7 ( the traditional single-coil version) after a seven month wait. This thing is absolutely flawless, and has the perfect Tele tone. Roasted maple satin neck, locking tuners, bone nut, compensated brass saddles, flawless fret-work…the works. Sire is a small builder, supply is low, demand is high. I paid $527.00 new (I actually got Sweetwater to give me a $72.00 discount when I ordered it). I cannot see ANY way that this Tele could be improved. Other than historical examples, why oh why do some of these other Teles cost thousands??
Hey man I'm glad I found your channel it's really good. I've kind of had this same problem with these boutique companies and what they charge. Now let me get this out of the way first, I understand these instruments are great and the attention to detail is extraordinary, but in my head I can't justify their prices when essentially they are making "partscasters" basically. I have found for me that an American Standard Strat plays and sounds just as well as a Suhr but for half the price. Essentially I have bought used fender strats and teles and changed out pickups, tuners and took it to a good luthier for things like fret dressings, nut slotting or set ups if its needed. After all that I end up spending about half or most of the time less of what a Suhr costs. I can't bring myself to buy a Suhr or any other boutique guitars when they are making copies of existing guitars and not really adding anything new to the classic design besides a different shaped headstock.
I totally get your point, and that’s basically also what I did my whole life. But the Novo…the Novo is special. Trust me, if it wasn’t special I would LOVE LOOOOOVE to make a video bashing 3,000+ priced guitars. I still will make that video if I come across a brand charging that price for an average guitar. I’m not a total believer in the boutique thing just yet, but I’m going to give it my best fair look.
@@andrefludd Honestly Novo was the only one I was considering and the Rivolta line is very interesting to me. Novo at least has a look to their guitars. Obviously they are offset inspired but with their own spin on it. I would actually love to try a Bilt but haven't yet. I think I have more of a problem with builders who make strat and tele copies with no real changes or a unique twist to he overall design. They could literally put a fender logo on the headstock and tell me its vintage and I'd believe them because they're pretty much spec'd out the same.
Love this, thank you, very good discussion. How to define quality? What makes the mona lisa so good(but for guitars)? Suhr has led the way with stainless steel frets, something I consider necessary, I destroy normal frets in a few months. Other than that you need good setup, resonance, magic pickups, tuners and bridge that don't go out of tune, and you want it to be cool in your style. It is known that principle of diminishing returns. This can be mitigated by buying used sometimes. Here's an acoustic analog of your discussion: I play my 400 dollar classical more than more expensive Taylor, but when I play the Taylor i see it does have value. I get a nice chunky muted tone from my 250 dollar ovation, that I can't get from my Taylor.
If you're a bean-counter (i.e., accountant), the answer is almost surely "yes." But guitar-buyers are rarely entirely rational. Just as emotion factors into how we feel about a particular song or guitar chop, it factors into the instruments we buy, and how much we're willing to pay for them.
The difference between a Suhr guitar and most other brands that cost less mostly has to do with materials and attention to detail. Suhr uses BETTER woods (typically lighter, more resonant, more consistent) that are dried longer, and more carefully. This is the same difference you will see between a Custom Shop instrument from Gibson or Fender, vs their standard production offerings. I'm not talking about pretty woods, or flashy tops. Of course, Suhr offers those too, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about all their woods, even the plain tops covered in opaque finishes, and the quality of Suhr's necks. Suhr hand-selects their timber, and often times other companies utilize woods that Suhr rejected. Next, Suhr uses stainless steel frets that are Plek'd correctly, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all Plek treatment from Gibson, which isn't truly a Plek treatment, since those require full string tension and hand finishing on a guitar-by-guitar basis. Kiesel does not offer Plek treatments, for two reasons. Jeff Kiesel says that a Plek treatment is largely window dressing, unless it's performed by a skilled technician who has the knowledge and takes the time to do it right for each instrument. Kiesel is correct there, but that is exactly what you get from Suhr or Tom Anderson. They do it right, which is evident in the superior fretwork and playability of their instruments. As fine as Kiesel's fretwork is, it isn't as precise as Suhr's, nor are their nuts cut as well. In order to bring a Kiesel to the level of a Suhr, it still needs a thorough Plek service performed by a Plek professional who knows what he's doing. This level of service includes dialing in the nut, saddles, neck relief, action, and fret dressing in conjunction with the Plek leveling. Kiesel's other, unstated reason for not offering the Plek service is cost. Kiesel simply produces too many instruments for a full, correct Plek treatment on every guitar to be cost-efficient within their mass-production business model. This is why Gibson's Plek treatment is not a true Plek service. A real Plek treatment would slow down the production time too much while also adding cost to the build. Another area in which Kiesel saves cost vs Suhr is the different finishes offered by each company. Simply put, Suhr's top-of-the-line thin nitro lacquer finishes are costlier and more time-consuming than Kiesel's basic satin or gloss poly finishes. California-based companies such as Suhr and Kiesel are not allowed by law to spray vintage-correct nitro lacquer. Instead, they are forced to move that portion of the build to Arizona, which adds to the cost of the instrument. The other alternative is to add plastic to the nitro lacquer formula, which isn't considered to be a true nitro finish. Kiesel does offer their Raw Tone finish, but only with certain other finishes, and those instruments are non-returnable, negating one of the main fail-safes when buying a mail-order-only guitar: the ability to try it out and return it if you don't like it. No such worries with a Suhr, since they're sold through conventional dealers who offer industry-standard return policies. Kiesel has nearly impeccable fit and finish on their latest instruments. This is true. So does Suhr, and here is where another huge difference between those two companies reveals itself: customer service. Kiesel, as well as their previous Carvin namesake, were and remain infamous for their arrogant, dismissive customer service, while Suhr is almost universally regarded as having among the best customer service in the business. Jeff Kiesel is rightly proud of his company and his builds, to the point that he seems to take a perverse pride in the arrogance he often displays to disgruntled customers. Do any online search, and you will discover that this complaint against Kiesel is legion. Meanwhile, a similar search regarding Suhr will reveal a similar consensus, only in the opposite direction, in terms of how well John Suhr treats his customers. John Suhr is an absolute legend in the guitar world, yet he still treats his customers with patience, understanding, and humility. If anyone could ever afford to be an arrogant jerk, it's John Suhr, but he never behaves that way. Rather than insist on telling you he's right, which is Jeff Kiesel's constant refrain, Suhr simply wants to make his guitar right for you, especially after the sale. Think Nordstrom's, vs JC Penney. All of these things are reflected in the resale value of each company's instruments. While Kiesel has definitely improved in this area vs their Carvin days, they're still a long way off from Suhr's strength in the used market. With a Suhr, you know you're purchasing the finest of everything, with no shortcuts anywhere, and you know that the people who built the guitar will stand behind it for you long after the sale. Lastly, regarding the tonewoods thing, all I can tell you is that the people who handle literally hundreds of guitars, thousands of guitars, i.e., people who aren't relying on very limited anecdotal evidence or internet lore, are all in agreement that tonewoods make a difference. Is it as large of a difference as swapping out the electronics in an electric guitar? No. Definitely not. Nonetheless, talk to a Greg Koch, a Guthrie Govan, a Pete Thorn, or anyone else who regularly reviews and demonstrates countless guitars year after year after year, and they will smile knowingly while rolling their eyes whenever they hear about internet comments assuring people that the woods used make no difference in the tone of an electric guitar. Trust the people with the most hands-on experience; the people whose business is to know such things. Not necessarily the builders, either. If you want to accuse them of snake oil salesmanship, fine, but trust the players. Trust the people who have played everything, in great abundance, and who have no reason to lie to you. Just sayin'.
great detailed comment. I learned a lot, thank you! I may have to save the tone wood talk for a different podcast. Simply put, I totally understand what you are saying in terms of players saying they can tell etc. I LOVE Guthrie Govan and Greg Koch, but just because they are amazing players doesn't mean they can't also be wrong about the tone wood debate. Placebo is such a massive factor in science they need tests where even the test giver doesn't know the truth. If a double blind study comes out and shows that 51% of high level guitarists can repeatedly identify tone wood in lab conditions, I will believe it. At this point, there is zero scientific or physics evidence to lead one to believe it exists in any way that is useful for us to pursue. Sometimes the science takes a while to catch up to the human experience. If it does, and we get hard evidence of tone woods being a thing, I'll be the first one saying I WAS WRONG. I have no vested interest either way. Thanks again for your comment!
@@andrefludd The thing about Greg Koch in particular is not just that he's an amazing player. Rather, it's that he's spent the majority of his very lengthy career as a professional demonstrator of guitar gear. There are periods when he plays more guitars in a month than the rest of us will play during our entire lifetimes. He is also about as down-to-earth and no-nonsense pragmatic as any born-and-bred Wisconsinite ever could be. Point being, he's played a million examples of every guitar in every flavor of wood. When he says that there is a tonal/response difference between ash and alder, even if it's only a 10% or less difference, and he (and others with a similar level of experience) can absolutely tell the difference in feel between tubes vs solid state or mahogany vs maple, I have little reason to doubt them. Another way of looking at this is no one disagrees that woods make a difference in an acoustic guitar. All other things being equal, a maple dreadnought with a spruce top obviously sounds different from a rosewood body with a cedar top. Well, most electric guitars tend to want the most acoustically resonant guitar, right? Theory being, what sounds good acoustically, what resonates the best, will be amplified by the electronics. The starting point is still the starting point. A better, or different, starting point will result in a better or different amplified tone. The difference is much less in an electric than with an acoustic, but guitarists habitually live and die in search of those differences, no matter how minute they may be. $3K for a used Klon Centaur instead of a nearly-identical-sounding JHS version, anyone? How about a real Dumble for $300K? It sounds totally different from a $1,000 off-the-shelf Fender tweaked to sound like a Dumble, right? Minute differences matter. For some people, everything matters. As proof of this, I offer as evidence your obsession with the tiniest advantages in playability and noiseless function in all your guitars. For many players, many of the things you require are of no consequence at all to them, but they mean everything to you.
it's tough to know what you don't know. some guitars stand out as individuals for your touch etc. maybe the cost isn't what you should look at. I've had maybe five or less guitars in my hands that were 'magical'. -- nothing to do with cost or brand. I've owned thousands of guitars. I still look for the magic that I found a few times. One of the guitars was a gibson (sold it to a student. at the time i didn't realize how rare it was for everything to come together like that) but i've owned many more than 100 gibsons. none comes close.. one on the list was a michael tuttle t style (maybe his number 40 or something). they wouldn't let me buy it at employee price and someone else got it. I have others by michael. They're great, for the most part, but not like that one. Tom Anderson team makes really wonderful guitars. I own some that are not included in the magical list but I would play them gladly anytime. I think price is for the chance that the guitar is magical but I convince myself that my expensive ones are worth it even though what i thought was magic about them may have worn off with time. Play to get better. tone is touch. Right now I'm improving with a really well set up tele kit guitar i built for around 400
From my research, cost of labor in the US (driven by cost of living in the US) and nitro finish (driven by how long it takes to apply) seem to be the two largest price drivers for vintage-style boutique guitars. That said, both the Kiesel and the Suhr Tele-style guitars are made in USA and are poly finished, so I’m not sure what’s driving the price difference there. Maybe just supply vs. demand.
@@andrefludd Ha true! Don’t get me started on how broken academia is. I know all about #altac careers too. That could be its own UA-cam channel! Really enjoying your videos so hope you keep it up :)
After having watched a few videos, I've gathered that you like thicker necks, SS frets, locking tuners, tremolos, and tuning stability. I would recommend maybe you take a look at some of the Suhr signature models like the newer Ian Thornely Classic T and Pete Thorn Standard HSS. Maybe even the Mateus Asato Classic S. A feature you will appreciate on Suhrs, because of your noise sensitivity, is that they feature hum reduction circuits for their single coil equipped guitars. I have yet to own a Suhr guitar personally but I've seen(through forums) how great their customer service can be when addressing the seemingly infrequent issues that arise with their products. I can attest their pickups and reactive load boxes are great. I recently picked up a USA PRS Silver Sky and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on one of these at some point. Personally, it fulfills my want for a lightweight example of a 60s strat with a thicker neck and some needed modern updates on the classic design like locking tuners, a truss rod you can access without popping off the neck, taller frets, eliminating points of friction points (string trees), and a smooth tremolo with a pop-in arm. All of this while keeping the essence of a vintage instrument through the sound of the pickups, a 6 point (although, improved) tremolo that can be decked, and the rounder fretboard radius. I also find the heel joint to be a slight improvement and I appreciate the quality of the thinner nitro finish.
Kiesel feels great, but in my honest opinion. Regardless of any feature. They dont feel as "worked on" as Suhr, Tom Anderson, or Fujigen Expert for that matter
I don't really have a suggestion. I don't have a good reason why these guitars are priced as they are other than the fact that these companies know that there is a market that is willing to pay these prices. Many of the buyers in this market are in fact attracted to the price itself. I saw this in music retail. Sometimes the price paid for a guitar can become a badge of honor in and of itself for someone who wants a piece to show off and brag about. "Yeah, I paid $$$$ for this guitar!" The only one of these brands I've personally played is Suhr. I've played S's and T's and it left me with mixed feelings. They were quality guitars in every way. No blemishes of any kind. The setup would appeal to many but I have quirky setup tastes so I would have to tweak it. That's the case with any guitar I buy. For me though, the guitars didn't speak to me. Yes they were perfect in many ways but I judge guitars with my ears first. The voice of the guitar means much more than any ergonomic considerations. I'm willing to sacrifice some ergonomics for a voice that I like. To me the guitars sounded sterile compared to my beloved Fenders. Similar voice of course, but something was missing to my ears. Less woody somehow. Bear with me here, but if Fender is a fresh homemade biscuit, Suhr was a biscuit that didn't flake or crumb when you bit into it. That's an out there reference I know but I like to use food as a comparison sometimes with music and instruments. This kind of thing is totally subjective and "sterile" to me might mean "bell like fidelity" to someone else.
@@andrefludd Speaking of high end boutique guitars... I'm in Atlanta and I just got back from seeing Vai play at the Variety Playhouse. He broke out the Hydra and played "Teeth Of The Hydra". What an instrument and what a performance! Not just the Hydra but the whole show.
Side note: the most expensive pickups available are Seymour Duncan Zephyrs. $1000 a set or more. They use silver wire which is the most conductive metal available industrially. But you are buying about two and a half pounds of silver processed into fine gauge wire. In addition silver is brittle compared to copper, so winding the pickups takes longer. I've never seen a set of these in person. Hell, I don't believe Seymour Duncan even has a demo anywhere to compare them to their other products. Yet I can point out a flaw in anyone trying to advocate using them: even with silver in the pickups, the rest of the circuit from the pots to the output jack is copper. I've yet to see any silver pots, switches or jacks. That's likely another $500 or more, and if anyone can point out where to find such things, I'd be happy to know. Long story short: Zephyrs don't show up often because barely anyone buys them, and for many splendid reasons more than I've pointed out here. It's overkill. But that's speaking from no small point of ignorance.
The Fano Alt de Facto and Novo will make most LPs get back in their case. I have quite a few higher end guitars and the best built of the bunch is a Carvin V220 from 1984.
Just a comment for the algorithm. I have no experience of this price segment so unqualified to contribute to the debate beyond my gut reaction, which says that once you go over about 1500 dollars it becomes a very steep curve of increasingly marginal gains and lower price-performance, a bit like with hi-fi and racing bicycles (which I DO know a lot about).
I play a reverend guitar. While I don't feel my skill is worth spending more than around 1k usd on a guitar, I am beyond happy with it. Things like locking tuners, treble bleed circuit and such, became things I would really miss if they didn't came with the guitar. Most other guitars in that price range, and even more, mainly the big brands, will not deliver, for my taste.
I got a Tom Anderson guardian angel recently. I'm fine if I have to sell all my other high end guitars 🙂 (Fender MIA Strat, Suhr Modern, Ibanez AZ Prestige, Strandberg). It is that good of a guitar.
Tom Anderson makes the finest ekectric guitars in the workd. Spattention to detail, hechas thecmost anaing neck joint, patened linear dovetail. Tom worked fir Schecter Guitars fir nearly five yesrs, when Schechtervwas sold and they statrt3d majing thrm in Japan, Tim wuick. dave Schecter was the working for Fadal. fadal made CNC machines fir the areosoace and medicak industry. Dave arranged fir Fadal to modify Fadal to be compatible with wood. tom es# the first guitar manufacture to have CNC machine. Tom also became the go to guy for CNC training. He taught Taylor, Martin, Lowden, Gibson, and others. I have the 3 Andersons, my Telecastervwas made in 1985, the neck has never moved 1mm in sll those years. I had co-designed the Godin Acousicaster with my friend Lloyd Baggs in the 1980s. In1992 there had been many changes made to our original design for Godin, we were paid a fee on each guitarr. that year we went our separate way. I tgst contacted with mentor and dear pal Roy Noble ( on of the bes5 acoustic luthiers in America) and we started to design a better thinline acoustic guitar. I had Tom Anderson make the neck for the Rosebud, body, bracing, assembly and and nitro lacquer done at Roys shop. Out of 479 Rosebuds made not one neck ever required service.
You should post a shorter text version of this question on The Gear Page forum and wait for Ron Kirn to reply. He seems to have the best no nonsense answers for anything guitar related and has a lot of insider knowledge. Actually, he's probably covered this before, just depends if you're able to find the post.
The Suhr tele example blew me away. I was lucky enough to do an option order G&L ASAT Classic (turned out killer, btw) before inflation took off and came in around $1600. And that includes their unique pickups. I really can’t imagine a $3k Suhr outplaying it or sounding better.
You should go the custom partscaster route where you can specify everything, given how particular you are about things. Warmoth body if you don't want a nitro relic, MJT if you want a nitro relic. Warmoth, Musikraft, or USACG for the neck. Then pay a trusted luthier to assemble it and do the final finishing. I don't see how it wouldn't come out just as good as any other boutique stuff and would probably be under $1500.
MJT bodies are cheapest ($250 or less) buying premade via ebay auction. You can custom spec one for $450. They offer great deals for neck/body/hardware combos (under $1k). If you don't want a relic neck, it's cheaper to buy separately since there's a labor cost for the relic. Musikraft and Warmoth upcharge differently so spec a neck how you want and see who does it cheaper. You could probably get up to $2k if you go crazy with upcharged neck specs and more expensive hardware (mastery bridge etc) but that's not bad to have everything EXACTLY how you want, with all top of the line stuff, and again, you could use a trusted luthier so you'd have great craftsman ship from manufacturing to finishing just like a boutique guitar.
In the 90s, there were a lot more forward thinking brands. Maybe that had to do party with more privately owned shops. Parker, swr, eden, Tacoma, just to name a few. They were all absorbed and dismissed by the big brands. It was an exciting time for gear. Not that there are not forward thinking brands now, but they are just not in the stores.
I would say a LOT of it is the amount of labor, and the rate at which that labor is paid. From what I've seen, a skilled worker can make a neck in X amount of time. They can do it well in some multiple of that time, maybe more, maybe less. The details are much better, and you can feel them, but it is difficult to justify the price. Knaggs was founded by a former PRS employee, maybe a shop manager or designer who wanted to go out on his own. The founder has a lot of credibility. I've got a Suhr Tele and a Fender Tele, and I can tell you that the Suhr is much better in every way. The Suhr was probably twice the price of the USA Fender, and in terms of "feel" it's probably twice as good. If you look at it as one set of wood bolted together vs another set of wood bolted together, it is difficult to justify. The Suhr has a roasted maple neck which would increase the price, as well as nicer wood with a nicer finish with better hardware. A lot of the rationalization for the higher prices are difficult to see because it's stuff like "feel" or "reputation." I've got an Ibanez J Custom RG with a tree of life neck inlay and flamed maple top that is absolutely beautiful. Does it play better than their $1,200 RG? Not by the 2.5x price difference. It wasn't even set up very well when I got it. If there was a graph that could explain it, there would be a direct correlation between quality and price up to a certain level, then price would go up much, much faster than quality.
Knaggs has Steve Stevens as a celebrity player. Tom Anderson has a team and they build a few hundred per year. The Fano is shaped like a LP Jr, not a Studio which has a carved top.
I love Keisels. That said, the Shur and Tom Anderson have better resale value for sure and debatably better fret jobs and playability in generally. That, at the least...
It all comes down to the business model. Kiesel advertises themselves as a kind of budget custom shop. Value is their brand. Unfortunately, that means they don’t hold their value as well as a Suhr, Knaggs, or Collings, which are priced at a premium and advertised as luxury items.
Suhr owner here! I have two of them, and I love them. I think the model you picked is a bad representation of the newer suhr stuff and definitely over priced. My thoughts on what makes suhr worth it IF you like what suhr does: The necks are phenomenal, all stainless steel frets. If you want the feel of a suhr neck, nothing else that I have played comes close. Custom staggered locking tuners. The tuner heights are all custom picked for an even break angle. His pickups are very modern vintage and have a certain feel and sound. If you love them, they are great. He has an excellent noise killing system paired with his single coil guitars. I have a p90 one, I wouldn’t be able to handle the noise live without the built in system. It’s great. That being said, I paid 2400 for my alt t and my jm pro new, 3K for a used old one is just too much. His newer ones are way more worth it.
You're a black guy? I never noticed. Lol This comes from the bottom of my heart: It's very nice and refreshing to have a friendly, knowledged, intelligent, rational, honest and empathetic person on this platform. Thank you!
I agree that a lot of these builders are out of their mind with what they are charging for these things. Suhr imo is a very good example of this. Yes he was a fender master builder and that adds a lot of value to the guitars he makes but most of it is just fender type guitars with a more modern neck. So many of these vintage-style custom guitars are straight-up inferior spec-wise and just focus on aesthetics. As someone who obsesses over design flaws, it is incredibly frustrating to see. It is also frustrating because I love the aesthetic of vintage guitars fenders especially. I would love to see a builder who blended vintage aesthic with modern features: stainless steel frets, good bridges that don't have design flaws, ratio tuners, flat fingerboard radi, good pickups. With a vintage aesthetic. Electric guitars are imperfect instruments and for me personally I want to minimize them. I'm at the point now where I can't justify buying a new guitar that is over 1k if it doesn't have stainless steel frets much less 3k+.
@@andrefludd Well last year Esp/LTD started doing SS frets on all guitars 1k plus which is a big deal imo. I am more of an ibanez guy because I prefer their 7 string necks but they are out here charing 1400 on up without them. Just can't justify it. My next guitar will probably end up being a kiesel in all honesty
I built a strat type guitar with custom parts from warmoth everything was roasted and I chose the weight of each component and my own selection of hardware and bridge and had it pleked and setup and it’s better than any production model Bolt on super strat you can purchase it rings like a novos but cost 1860 with tax
Dr Andre fludd 2024!!! Great podcast. The ken Parker archtop is beautiful. I recommend looking at bilt guitars out of Iowa, they're ij the 3k-7k range and stuff. I'm not sure if they're more rejection or perfection style of guitars like rhett says but they're cool regardless. The headstock is It for me! The thing for me with bilt is a custom Volare gets to me around the same price as an original vintage starcaster. So it puts me in a weird place where I could get an original if I had the money for a bilt. But the bilt could be entirely customized. And they're hand made. Decisions decisions.
It is not only a matter of features or expensive materials. For my taste, glossy finishes, gold hardware and quilted precious wood tops are a turn-off, and I even would consider not buying a guitar when the headstock looks modern or non-classic. The are a few modern exceptions : Parker or some Musicman.... So aesthetics is a huge factor for me and I am a fan of classic guitars from the 60s and 70s. That´s why I like fano guitars so much ! BTW the old Fanos play beautiful, their necks are amazing. Another builder is Danocaster, they make better custom shop guitars than Fender´s .
Price is the perrenially contentious issue in the guitar world. Here is a fact you don't hear much: adjusted for inflation, a 1958 Les Paul Standard cost about $3000 in today's money- so it's the same as it always has been. This is true of all 4 major price tiers. The big difference is that a lot more manufacturers are offering genuinely good instruments across all tiers. If you are willing to learn to do a set up, or pay for it, you can find a price range, determine the basic specs you want, and probably find something you love. I am a machinist and have built guitars, so there is simply not a guitar in existence worth paying more than about $3000, because there is no secret sauce or building technique other than skill and precision, which you are paying for handsomely at 3 grand. I can understand paying extra for a unique piece of art as long as you are going to play it, and not just hang it up.
I get what you are saying Kirk and I love that you included the inflation calculation, which I also do in some of my videos. But as I’m sure you are aware, American salaries and housing have not kept up with inflation. So when you look at the whole picture I just find it interesting. I tend to agree with you. I can’t see anything being worth more than $3,000-3,500. That’s why I gave the a Kiesel example of $2,000. Thanks for your comment, I love when someone with building experience shares their perspective.
It all comes down to the man hours and components it takes to make a guitar. That being said I don't see why any solid body electric would cost more than $2500. The Suhr is worth it vs the Kiesel because Suhr will give you perfection. Kiesel has a forum full of horror stories and the owner is known to be one of the biggest jerks in the business. To know that you're buying from someone that won't give you anything less than perfection to me adds to the dollar amount of the guitar as well as the resale value. Check out Eart guitars and see what they give you for a few hundred bucks. Stainless steel frets, bone nut, roasted maple compound radius neck, and mahogany body are standard features and they play unbelievable. Only my PRS S2 plays as well as my Eart and I have a few really nice guitars.
@@Stratisfied22 Well, they're softer than nickel frets but it takes a lot of playing to wear grooves in nickel frets! If you have 4 you probably don't play them enough to wear grooves. I looked into Earts and won't buy one. The bridge is crap. Eart is the latest Chinese guitar that is overhyped on social media to make people rich. I would buy a Squier Affinity for a good bit less or pay a little more for a Squier Classic Vibe when looking for cheap guitars.
@@joeking433 I've owned a ton of guitars and a Squier or even a Fender for that matter doesn't come close to what Eart gives you. The bridge block alone is 3 time as thick as a Fender and the trem is one of the best I've used on a strat so I don't know what you mean there and as far as the frets you are the only one I've heard this from.
KNAGGS are basically a couple PRS custom shop top guys who had differences with him and wanted more design/build freedom so they broke away on their own venture. So I guess they want us to pay for that. Good stuff I'm sure but the one you showed has got to be their low end.
Pretty much, Paul Reed Smith is known to be pretty opinionated, the reason why we probably will never see PRS with steel frets or small heel. I love my 96 Custom 22, it plays and sounds fantastic. I'm not a technical player so I don't mind big heel or nickel frets. BTW I saw interview with Joe Knaggs where he bashed PRS for using slave labor, becouse of SE line, pretty disingenuous bullshit if you ak me.
Hmmm. If there are human rights abuses they deserved to be discussed but that is out of my pay grade. Oddly enough, my significant other is a international human rights attorney.
@@andrefludd I had to watch the interview again to be sure, but it was more like in general alegation - If you are making guitars in asia, you are using slave labour, because people there are paid way less than same workers in the USA and we dont like that.
Suhr guitars are pronounced- “Sir” as in The way a person says “yes sir, or no sir in a conversation. Back before the internet, a person only had their professional rep to go on, and people like John Suhr and Tom Anderson were among the first to be named dropped by pro players in guitar magazines. They made guitars, amps and pickups for NYC and LA pros in the studio scene. They have the same type of importance and history as your guy Ken Parker and they basically invented the concept of boutique guitars with a handful of others. You are paying for their real world knowledge and accomplishments. And you also are paying for their aesthetic. Also, they have managed to make high quality guitars for numerous years and made companies like Fender and Ibanez have to up their quality to not lose business to them. Nowadays, more production guitars try to look like Suhr and Anderson made them. There were many years when Fender, etc only made very plain, solid color guitars with little or no attention to the natural beauty of different wood patterns. I bought my first Suhr guitar in 2003 and it was approx $2400.00 back then… and totally worth it
@@morganghetti I not only paid double, but I also chose a Transparent Purple stain on a highly quilted maple top. That is probably some sort of imperfect trifecta for those who like to note such things.
Income perspective is a huge factor. If a person only makes $50k per year, a $1000 "affordable" guitar represents 1/50th of their income. About one week of pay. To someone who makes 1 million per year, $20k represents the exact same percentage of their income. One week. Money just isnt equal to all people. If i had millions, i would most certainly buy $50k vintage guitars and $20k boutique guitars. Why the hell not? They aint gonna lose value. I imagine most of the high end stuff is being bought by high end collectors and is an investment just like their fine art collection.
I have a Warmoth Stratocaster body with Rio Grande calibrated handwired pickups with a solid bocote neck schaller locking tuners standard vintage tremolo bridge high end wiring and pots. Bought it all used and some from a luthier that retired. I am in it for a total of 750ish I would put l it against any custom shop out there. I could just never see paying 3-5k for a guitar of the quality I want, so it just took time and a bit of luck to find the deals and basic skills to achieve it.
Honestly I think it's a 1:1 parallel of Vintage vs Modern cars. Same reason you'd like or want a 69 Judge is probably the same reason you'd want a 63 P bass. Personally they're not for me, but I acknowledge and respect the mindset of the collectors. Could also compare it to sneakerheads! I don't get at all why you'd pay so much for the original production run of some Jordans but I respect it. What I don't respect is the old timers genuinely believing that they're better than today's modern high tech stuff lol. They're different things but let's not pretend like every off the shelf Gibson and Fender from that time period was amazingly excellent. The ones that survived did so because they were great examples of them, but for every legendary 59 Les Paul out there there's probably a bunch that are just awful. That's less so with modern CNC production, where deviance to the formula is honestly just a QC issue. Yes, I get it, the hand made nature gives them a certain personality, but a lot of the times it's a bad one lol. In the end, it's wonderful that we live in a world with enough variety to make all of us happy, and I think that's the most important part!
Regarding the Fano. Dennis Fano built all of those guitars in his garage, before he created Novo. So they are considered highly desirable, as only a limited number were made.
That story is not quite accurate. Fano turned into a company and expanded beyond Dennis. Eventually, he sold the company (probably because he was no longer enjoying himself) and then started Novo from his basement in Pennsylvania before moving it to Nashville. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fano_Guitars
I believe Les Paul Jrs are flat with 1 pup, and then the special is flat with 2 pups, and the studio and up you get the carved top. As far as the boutique brands only the Novo with a JM style vibrato seems special enough for me to justify the cost. I get paying for experience and craftsmanship, but there also has to be a uniqueness.
I've played a Knaggs. I've played a Suhr. I've played a Kiesel. They are all very stable compared to the garden variety guitar. Fit and finish is excellent, which is to say it will be difficult to find a flaw of any kind on any of these guitars. And I cannot see where the premium comes from.
@@andrefludd I suggest you double down. Parker is an extinct brand. Try another orphan brand. Specifically a Brian Moore MC1 or C90. There are a few pristine examples on Reverb right now. It bears saying they have features that are similar to Parkers. Take a look.
a lot of the stuff you get with vintage and vintage style guitars you can't "get" over the internet. you wont be able to discern it over specs. its in the details, that add up to a total that is greater than the sum of its parts. I , like you, am a fan of SS frets. the mohs hardness scale is very persuasive, but as PRS himself enjoys reiterating, a guitar is the sum of its parts. it isnt one two or three parts. you have to try to find a guitar that has "all" those 'vintage' features. the thing is a new guitar with all vintage appointments ISNT BEING MADE (if you try to find a real tele, that has the 7.25 radius, the nickel frets. the nitrocellulose lacquor, all that , you are buying AN INVESTMENT that gets better with time. anything else is an approximation)
@@andrefludd l live out of Nashville a bit. Glasers does the final touches. It’s honestly like they set it up then l go home play it a week and set it up. 🤪
@@andrefludd I'm glad young people like yourself are carrying on the pursuit of real instruments and not "entering" the music. Always warms my heart to know guitar playing will not be replaced with a keypad anytime soon! Keep up the good work!
I don't know but my guess is you might not understand it because vintage guitars and the players that play them just aren't your main thing. I personally love Steve Vai but I don't care for that type of tone, I don't care how easy his guitar is to play or how many features it has, if it doesn't help me get the tone I like. If I'm into Eric Johnson or Phillip Sayce or SRV who achieved a lot of my favourite tones with vintage guitars I'm going to be spending the big bucks on a vintage guitar to see what all the fuss is about, and if someone can't afford a vintage guitar they are going to chase the closest thing to it by paying extra to get as close as possible in tone and feel. Some fall between the two extremes they want more modern features but retain vintage tones, it's give and take, 24 frets change the way a neck pickup sounds for instance. At the end of the day if you play with less gain and less effects the guitars natural character and tone make more of a difference, you don't pay $2,000 for a bottle of whiskey and mix it with coke. I swapped parts with my vintage strats and fender customshops and I liked the way the old stuff sounds, even though the modern tuners worked better the vintage ones worked good enough for it not to be a big issue for me, but I completely understand others having a different preference to me on that, it comes down to your personal preference it's not all objective we are emotional beings and that influences our buying behaviours.
I would also need permission from the owners to film and all of that. Plus, I like getting time with the guitar alone, putting my own strings, listening in my house. It's hard to get a real feel in a shop.
@@andrefludd true but it is fun just to check things out. I played a 57 strat, totally beat up, it might have been black in its day. Played it through a 70s fender in equally bad condition. Think about the most compressed sound you ever heard. Just the opposite. Totally open, the music enveloped you. I just bought a house and could not afford it. Looking back I should have found a way.
@@andrefludd you most certainly wouldn’t need permission to film or check stuff out at NAMM. With your UA-cam channel you can get membership as press or also as an educator. If you have never been, you owe yourself a trip out to Anaheim for the show one year. I have a feeling you’d LOVE it!
Hey Andre. Great video. I love the content. I have 10 years experience in manufacturing and have also worked as a professional guitar tech (for an actual company on payroll). Some things for you to consider.
Boutique builders pay more for wood than brand name manufacturers. Manufacturers like Kiesel, Fender, PRS, Gibson, etc.... They buy wood in bulk and get it cheaper because of buying larger quantities. A lot of them even dry their own wood. Boutique manufacturers don't buy in bulk and most wouldn't have to ability to kiln their own wood so they have to order it dry and ready to go. This is also true with hardware. Buying in bulk is always cheaper.
Also, consider the manufacturing process. Is the guitar completely hand built or are there a lot of CNC machines involved that speed up the process? Kiesel has CNC machines. This applies to finishing as well. Some manufacturers automate finishing and some don't. Boutique builders are more likely to use routing templates and routers and do it the old fashioned way. Big manufactures will automate which is quicker and more accurate.
Also, what is outsourced. Outsourcing is a huge factor in the final price. Some manufactures produce their own pickups. Some outsource. This would apply to all the hardware of course. For instance, PRS manufactures their own hardware and electronics where as a lot of them don't. They buy from another manufacturer.
Another thing to consider is the country the guitar is manufactured in. Not only because labor wages are different across the globe, but also because of import and export fees. Where you live and where the guitar is coming from affects the final price.
Ill just sum up with some bullet points
*Bulk purchasing power
*Handmade vs CNC
*Import/Export fees
*Outsourcing vs In House Production
*Taxes - Large manufacturers employ more people and the taxes work out quite differently
*Labor wages
*Turn around time
I hope this gives you some things to think about or maybe some things you might not have thought of. There are a lot of variables but as you mentioned supply and demand will set the final price. People will pay what they are willing to pay. A company will factor in all these things and let the market dictate the price and hopefully it is a profitable endeavor. Cost of materials plus labor wages with taxes factored in, they set their profit margins and hope the customer will accept the deal.
I personally think some of it is just plain gimmicky. But to each their own. I wouldn't be caught dead buying a 2000 dollar Fender when I can build one of equal quality from parts (partscaster) for a fraction of the cost.
Hope this helps. Take care.
Would also like to add that I really like Paul Reed Smith's philosophy about manufacturing. He uses CNC's where the quality would be better and he uses handcrafting when it would be better or more appropriate. He just wants whatever produces the best quality. There are just some things that a human cannot due as accurately as a CNC machine and he uses people when its something a machine just cannot do. I imagine one day there won't be any human hands involved in the manufacturing process but we are not quite there yet.
Very very helpful, I’m going to pin this one thank you!
@@andrefludd Also Knaggs was at PRS for 25 years and Suhr was a senior master builder at the fender custom shop. Anderson worked for Schecter and Fano repaired guitars until he decided to start building. I don't know how hands on any of those folks are in the process now, but I can see how something like Suhr leaving Fender and doing his own thing could be a value add for some.
@Spalien Acecraft Appreciate it!
This is a great point. But as a consumer, I would want to pay as low as possible and get the best as possible. Standard economics. You cannot tell me a handbuilt is better than a cnc/handfinished guitar.
I want you to play and review as many of these boutique guitars as possible and come up with your own theories for or against. In my opinion you're the most thorough and honest reviewer in the UA-cam world, so refreshing to see!
Thank you! That would be very fun indeed....so far, I've bought every guitar myself and I am not rich...so hopefully in the future a few companies will send me some stuff to try, as long as they are okay with me being honest.
@@andrefludd And there lies the problem with UA-cam, honesty apparently is a bad business model, companies want promotion rather than evaluation. I watch you more for your style rather than the product, I hate parkers and mayones but I've watched all the vids lol
@@timmx3794 Well I appreciate the support :).
As a Suhr (Sir) owner my thoughts are fit and finish as well as specs. Your getting Fender custom shop level attention to detail with modern details as mentioned. Mine have a elliptical neck carve, compound radius, stainless 24 frets, fancy top etc. but it’s a 3k guitar. I feel with Suhr you are paying for years of development in products and improving the classic designs without losing some of the classic looks.
Very helpful thanks!
As a fellow Suhr owner, my feelings are exactly the same. I have a lot of respect for John Suhr and his team and their ability to build great guitars. I'm especially impressed with their customer service, they've been very helpful in answering all kinds of silly questions I've had about custom wiring possibilities. I'd also like to add that Suhr has a bit of a killer feature in their SSCII silent single coil system which they've been using in their guitars for a long time. They recommend that you stick with their own Suhr single coil pickups which the SSCII system is calibrated for, but you could in theory pop any old single coil into their guitars (just need to make sure that their polarity and wind is compatible with the SSCII) and the SSCII system will reduce their hum. This was a key factor for me when I was in the market for a new HSS recently, though I would really like to try some Zexcoils in it some day for comparison (@andrefludd your demo of your HSH Zexcoil Tribucker setup was very inspiring).
@@lexdon Custom Shop at Shecter Guitar Research used several different guages of coil wraps creating enhanced tonal qualities. I've played their SSH Nick Johnston Signature (made in CA at their Custom Shop, not imported as their "Diamond" $899 line made in Indonesia). I felt the uniqueness was worth their list price of $3,600, I can't afford it but it's definitely worth it. It sounds that much better than anything I've experienced since 1962. I would have loved to record it and verify it, statistically.
This is a good example of why companies and people invest in and protect the Brands, because they have value. The lesson here is that if you are buying to play (that is me), then shop for Quality not Brand - but do not be surprised if your resale value is lower. Even better to buy Quality less known instruments second hand and let someone else pay the depreciation. If you want to retain resale value - you will have to pay the Brand Premium.
I think the brand premium may also inform quality to some degree though but not 1 to 1 you are right about that.
Additionally, comparing a Kiesel to a Suhr is like comparing a Camaro to a Porsche. If you're looking on paper, they will have similar performance, both are faster than their contemporaries... but the intangibles of precision material choices, pedigree, and resale value all come into play. I've purchased several Kiesel guitars and they do check a lot of the boxes, but none of them have just "sang" or resonated like a Suhr or core PRS. You can't put steering feel or exhaust note in an automotive brochure, but once you experience that feel and sound, carving around a twisty corner, that smile on your face.... and "Yes.... there it is....." ☮❤🎶
You are probably right! I never tried a suhr but soon…
I have never played a guitar that "sang" or noticeably resonated. And my wallet is happier for it.
Relative, many may say the prefer a Friedman gtrs, and many would say a Shabat Gtr is better than a Friedman.... have many friends that owned a Surhr and them got a Kiesel and are happier.... at certain level is subjective..in my opinion a shabat gtr is superior that Kiesel and Suhr..
Unfortunately, that's bullshit. The guitar makes very little difference in tone.
@@dmytrotarasov9477 pickups make greater difference but construction and wood make certain differences that a pickup can not make
This is a really interesting video, and it made me think - I honestly believe most of the people who build these guitars charge whatever they think they can get away with because they know most buyers make emotional decisions when buying a guitar rather than analyzing the costs involved as you're doing here. I'm including myself in this because I've bought and sold a lot of guitars since the 1980's and in my earlier years I was guilty of buying guitars based on everything other than whether or not they actually suited me as a player. I think many people fall in love with the idea of a certain style of guitar and buy it based on how it makes them feel - and I've done that too. This is why signature models from the bigger companies exist as well - people buy the sizzle not the steak. They're buying an idea or an emotion rather than purchasing a guitar that's really going to suit them as a player (of whatever level). I think that's the psychology behind why these makers charge the amounts of money they do; they know people will love a certain type of guitar so make something that suits a certain type of buyer rather than making something that suits a certain kind of player. I could be wrong but I think there's definitely something psychological happening when people decide they want these 'vintage style' guitars.
Thanks for your comment!
Love your analytical outlook ! I have an LsL Tele style guitar . It was 3 grand . Here’s why I was willing to pay that much . 1) I’m a lefty, and Fender, and Gibson don’t offer the same colors and features for left handed players. 2) I got a custom shop experience , a one on one relationship with the builder. LsL features stainless steel frets , on a quarter sawn roasted neck . Nitro finish . Still less than a Fender custom shop guitar! There are now so many great builders out there, making great guitars, and prices are all over the map!
Thanks for your comment!
For Les Pauls, I think there's a Melody Maker all the way at the bottom of the stack, which is like, one or two normal single coils. The Les Paul Junior has a bridge P90, and the Les Paul Special has two P90s. All three of these models have the slab style body.
The Studio, Standard, and Deluxe are all carved tops with varying levels of binding, wood figuring, and inlay differences. Generally they get prettier as the trim level goes up, but they're all a pair of humbuckers with two volumes and two tones.
On top of those is the Les Paul Deluxe, which has three humbuckers and often also has a Bigsby trem system.
Thanks!
You are correct.
Supply and demand, along with fit, finish and the attention to detail that a hands-on small builder offer, would inflate such prices.
And, considering some of my favorite guitars are Fender-style parts guitars that my brother puts together as a hobbyist, there are a lot of options out there.
Fun topic. Looking forward to your continued adventures in this wonderful, guitar nerd territory. 🤙🎸
Thank you!
So much of the music we love was made with traditional guitars and amps. To be honest i fell in love with a telecaster recently that makes me want to pick up the guitar and play, in the end thats what really counts
Agreed!
You hit the nail on the head with the who and the what is in each build. If your instrument is pushing the boundary of a new technology or design language it will push the price up exponentially based on the person building or the availability of unique elements. Years ago I spent quite a bit of money to start experimenting with fanned fret technology... a custom neck from Novax, a hand made one-of-a-kind 2-Tek bridge, but as the concept was more quickly adopted than most new guitar ideas, now one could purchase an entire finished guitar for the same money. Likewise, flash forward a few years and now there are many more options available for off-the-shelf-parts, instead of a single vendor option... for example the Ratio tuners you previously mentioned liking (I agree, they're awesome) are only available from one company, so when they're in short supply or if discontinued, prices can shoot up very quickly.
Exactly! I’m most interested in new technologies to be honest
I wasn't impressed by the Ratios I tried. The mechanical action was inconsistent between tuners -- on one, I could actually feel the gears grinding. I love the concept but based on that experience, I've stuck with Hipshots or Gotohs.
Excellent video! And the Parker in the beginning isn't helping my 20+year GAS for a Parker!
I was also super curious a few months back, and decided to give a partscaster a shot. I learned a ton and the guitar is amazing!
For Strats/Teles:
BFF. Brand, Finish, Frets. Everything else is commoditized.
Here is an example Tele style guitar:
- Body (Warmoth)
- Neck (Warmoth)
- Nut (Graphtech)
- Tuners (Hipshot)
- Bridge (Gotoh)
- Pickups (Fender)
- Pickguard (Warmoth)
- Control plate (Obsidian)
- Pots/switch (Obsidian)
- Knobs (Ernie Ball)
- String ferrules (Fender)
- Neckplate (Fender)
- String tree (Graphtech)
There are only 2 items above that are NOT coming from some other manufacturer:
- Body
- Neck
For these, there are a ton of factories with state of the art CNC machines. These are consistent and about as close to perfect as you can get. They will mate perfectly, and intonation will be a breeze due to the perfected geometry.
If you want a simple, eye-pleasing finish, throw a coat or two of Odie's oil on the body. File the frets if you'd like balled ends, and lightly sand the fretboard for rolled edges.
I did exactly this recently and the finished product absolutely smokes my American Fender, which I consider to be a fantastic player.
But -- My partscaster would probably sit around for a year or two if I tried to sell it, and I'd probably lose money.
Bottom line -- if you're comfortable with a simple oiled finish and you're willing to spend 30 minutes on the frets, go the route I did. You'll have a guitar that plays like other $2k-$4k guitars for less than $1k, but you'll have a hard time selling it.
Reasons to not go this route:
- You love a particular brand
- You're considering resale
- You have gas over some particular color/relic/etc property and must have it
Parts guitars are always fun! I don't trust myself to put it together just yet though haha. I'm considering it for 2023.
Yeah, you lose money on partscasters. Buy a used American Fender or Gibson you might even make money when you sell it.
A lot of these brands are endorsed by famous players. Steve Stevens with Knaggs, Mark Knopfler with Suhr, Martin Barre from Jethro Tull, played Andersons, now he plays PRS. Another great boutique builder is Collings, a small workshop making electric and acoustic guitars and mandolins. I believe Joe Walsh has been seen playing the occasional Kiesel.
Thanks for the info! Collins is on the list for sure!
Bill Frisell has a Collings with signature Ron Ellis pickups in it. The tone is unbelievable.
This is a great topic. One that is nearly impossible to quantify because these types of guitars are primarily emotional purchases.
Owned brands such as PRS, Ibanez J Custom, TA, Suhr, ESP Custom Shop, Mayones, among others. For these boutique builders I’ve always held the perspective that craftsmanship, heritage, and aesthetics are what differentiate the products. Any one of these can give a brand huge pricing power. Guitarists are picky (myself included). I’ve simply bonded with Suhr more than any brand and am willing to pay a seemingly crazy premium for it. It just feels right in my hands, better than any of the other brands I mentioned. Materials are mostly a minor cost. It’s the sum of parts, labor, and brand from which we can derive the guitar’s value.
This is not to say a $1500 guitar could not replicate this same experience, but I can count on Suhr to consistently deliver a product that I bond with.
Well said sir! Thanks for your comment. Suhr will for sure be reviewed in 2023.
Nice video Andre! I subbed. One aspect of the cost you didn't mention is the price you pay for the brandname on the headstock. This is where marketing swipes away all objective arguments. As we know: marketing always wins, when performed well. We buy the 'story': a masterbuilder leaves Fender and sarts building guitars that he always thought Fender should make, another guy hand builds guitars in a small shed in the middle of the Canadian woods and Brad Pitt accidentally discovers him and plays his guitars,...Every expensive brand has their own story. Then: brand name manufacturers have a totally different business structure than luthiers, different overhead costs. Luthiers will employ other luthiers to help them build guitars. Manufacturers employ people who need a job. Buying furniture from a skillesd carpenter will costs more then shopping at IKEA, altough IKEA stuff is sometimes of very good quality . It's a different world
Great points! Thanks for adding that
I work for a music store that sells a lot of Knaggs guitars, as my boss works closely with the company. In your videos you make it abundantly clear that you love modern, sleek guitars and I can say with some certainty that most Knaggs guitars probably wouldn't appeal to you, as they can be quite heavy and most of them come with a really glossy finish. Most of the people who buy them are already playing old school guitars like 50s style Les Paul's and others that are similar. That being said the craftsmanship is still top notch and they come set up perfectly from the factory, you don't need to adjust anything out of the box. Hopefully some of this info is of use to you.
Thanks for sharing that is def useful
andre-that was a great, curious and earnest grouping of questions. i appreciated your questions and your thoughts on the legitimacy of boutique solid body guitar (in vintage-styles) pricing. i am not a luthier, nor do i have the vast experience of demoing hundreds of models as you do, but as a solo artist and designer of 30 years, i can somewhat get on board with what a small custom shop would charge for their time, skill and materials. for one, shops like the ones you feature probably don’t have the buying power to purchase hardware and electronics like huge manufacturers do, not to mention the bulk shipping discounts, wood, etc etc. i think, another great andre fludd question would be, how do companies such as gibson and fender justify selling vingtage bodies for $9,999+, where we know the manufacturing techniques/technology are quite streamlined and cost-effective, and with companies with such buying power, we know their materials, electonics, wood costs are much lower than say, a custom/boutique builder could acquire them for. i would think the boutiques should get more for their uniquely handcrafted builds than a mass-produced gibson les paul? as an example, go to eddie’s guitars, “electric/gibson” and notice the 25-plus “custom” les pauls for $14,699.00? how do they justify that?
Retailers - Keisel is direct to consumer. Cuts out the retailer cost. Also, as a custom order is essentially pre sold, there are no storage/warehousing costs associated if it was a slow sale
But mainly prestige, marketing and heritage can also drive up the price
Thanks for that!
As far as pickup cost, some high end traditional style guitars (Collings for example) come with Ron Ellis pickups, which can cost up to $850 per set, so that's a big add on (there are of course cheaper options). Also, I'm not that familiar with the finish Kiesel uses, but most traditional guitars come with nitrocellulous finishes, which are not cheap and labor intensive (and toxic if not careful). There are other factors of course like extremely high wood quality, super light ash, high grade rosewood, etc that drive price. Have a great day.
Great points! Thank you!
$850 for a set of pickups??? Hell, he should have charged $8000! It's wire around magnets, how much can you differentiate wire around magnets??? I've hand wound pickups before, there's nothing to it and they sound great! Sometimes I wonder how Seymour Duncan can get $100 for his pickups but I always buy 'em because you can get a good bit of your money back out of them when you sell them, and they're easy to sell because of the brand!
No wire wrapped around magnets is worth 800 dollars. That's absurd.
The law of diminishing return. There is a point, where the increased cost greatly outweighs the incremental improvement in quality. I will say, that a majority, of what you’re paying for, is experience and attention to detail. Dennis Fano started both Fano and Novo guitars. He’s a renowned builder, who has a small team, whom he has personally guided and informed their level of work. An amazing assembly/setup, with quality components, will make even cheap guitars play and sound great. Rather than buy a stock jazzmaster for 1500, and then pay upwards of $1000 for the mastery bridge/vibrato, upgraded pickups, plek job, fret job, upgraded/perfect cut nut, etc., most people would rather pay the cost to have it done right from the get go.
I should have also mentioned diminishing returns. I totally agree with you. I was just looking at a parts jazzmaster build, and I realized I was already getting close to the price of a used Novo without the guarantee it would be great.
Better resale.
I have a Suhr Classic S Antique. It’s basically a super Strat with a light relic. It looks vintage but it’s actually quite modern. Compound radius, stainless steel frets, noiseless pickups, etc. you might like it. It feels almost surgical. I won’t tell you that nothing can beat it but I’ll say it plays fairly effortlessly. If you’re in the NYC area you can play and demo mine without having to shell out your own money.
Very generous offer Mr. Baker! I'd love to if you are still interested, no pressure, send me an email Andrefluddmusic at gmail.
@@andrefludd email sent. Talk soon.
Your opinions about these pricing schemes, Dr. Fludd, are Right-On. Since 1962, I frequented "Guitar Gallery" on Wabash Street in Chicago (and guitar stores open longer than "Lyon and Healy," also on Wabash in Chicago). On the way up the stairs are photos of all the major musicians filling stadiums and premier venues (Beatles included), with their lugubrious written comments. I have seen and played handmade guitars of different shapes and custom one-off features. The prices were interstellar and astronomical. I never figured it out. I always had the highest ratio available, best gold tuners that I always meticulously installed myself. I know the economics of the individual components that make a fine guitar. Assembled and played regularly, it may be possible to be fall magically in love with an expensive guitar based on literal qualities (better yet quantified). The best reason to manufacture and price any guitar far above what is reasonable, is to create a limited niche market that only rich people can afford. Anybody can be sold stuff that is way overpriced. It never made economic sense to me. I owned my quality benchmark standard; a Martin D-28 (1971). I experienced the richness mellowing of the sound of a much played (hours a day) guitar from the age of 30 to 50-years old. That was the richest sound in my experience. I sold it to pay a personal debt and lost track of it. I bought it new for $666 and was able to suffer a $3,300 penalty for it because bridge placement was a factory quality issue during this period. I felt it was worth much more, perhaps even $4,000 to $5,000, even with the intonation issues. Nothing I ever played sounded richer and more full. New Taylors came close. No boutique models ever came close. I love your reviews and share a similar skeptical economic standard of morality or honesty.
Love this topic!!! Yes, they are..only for one reason though imho. So much less labor to not pore fill, and do fine finish in a boutique setting. Great marketing/cost cutting angle by the boutiques. The acoustic equivalent is Iris. That said, the labor on finely finished boutiques is insane. I have multiple luthier friends that spend countless hours on minute details on finely finished, well appointed instruments.
To understand how guitars are priced you need to understand how brand equity and value is calculated, as well as the important role reputation, brand perception and positioning plays in valuation. Whether a guitar is overpriced or "worth every cent" depends on many personal "emotional" factors and purchaser behaviours - some of which are by choice, whilst others cultivated by brand strategists and marketers.
Very true!
Tom Anderson has a small team of builders. Lower production than Suhr. I love mine and got it second hand for under 2000 USD.
That sounds like a steal. I’d love to hear what you think makes it special.
@@andrefludd part of what makes TAs special is the buzz feiten tuning system, as well as the beautiful aesthetics of the tops. It's a shame their necks aren't more flat D shaped though (my neck preference)
@@andrefludd the neck joint makes it special. a boot on that can't shift. also very ergonomic. only 2 screws attach it.
@@andrefludd depends on the model. the dropt top hollows are expensive, the classic models less so. wood and finish make a big difference.
to reinforce this though, there are some cheaper guitars with BFTS, and they can be retrofitted for a decent price. Also, Tom from TA defs has a team for sure.
I think the sticky nitro finishes cost the mfgs more to apply. Govt regulations probably has a lot to do with the increased cost as that chemical isn't environmentally friendly. Kinda like chrome plating these days. People who do it are few and far between. Dipping a guitar in hot plastic is liable to be a lot cheaper, but it won't age like the old ones. May not age at all if you don't use it to beat fence posts in the ground.
I believe one of the things that increases the cost for nitro is that it takes longer to dry so you just can’t make as many.
Interesting, never considered that
I think one thing your missing is that there's a segment of guitars that are looked at more as an investment then instrument. Right or wrong, and in my opinion beyond the supply and demand, that's what's driving the prices
That’s true for certain guitars, but a lot of people gig with the brands I mentioned. I feel like vintage fender of vintage gibson are the more investment based instruments.
Lets take a trip to the past for fun. In 1957 a Goldtop Les Paul Standard cost 247,50$ + 42,00$ for a case. Adjusted to inflation 1$ in 1957 is 10,53$ in 2022. 289,50 x 10,53 = 3057,12$ so they are not too far off in prices today. Les Paul Custom cost 375,00$ + 47,50$ for a case. You can find original dealer price lists online. I cant really speak on Suhr, Novo or any other replicas as havent owned any long term. Anyways i enjoy listening to your thoughts, youre well spoken and look at guitars very differently than me so its interesting. Thanks and have a good one.
Thank you!
The key thing is economy of scale. For a small builder that is measuring their annual sales in the tens or even hundreds, the costs are just going to be way higher. They have a lot of underlying basic costs that are much harder when you’re running a small custom shop.
A much bigger place like Kissel (which have a full-blown factory with advanced CNC machines, and make a sizable numbers of guitars each year) let alone a massive industrial maker like Fender or Gibson, just have much better ability to spread some of those core costs across their whole range and thereby keep their prices to a bit of a more reasonable level. That being said, it’s almost impossible to find a USA made guitar here in the UK today for under the £2000 mark.
You’re not getting more guitar. You’re just getting a guitar in a less economical way. It’s the same reason that you might pay more money for meat from a farmers’ market than you would down the supermarket.
Is it worth it? Depends on what you’re after I guess. Back in 2016 I bought a cheap Charvel San Dimas Pro Mod, and to be honest that guitar is more than enough for anyone if all you want is a pragmatic instrument to play. But like many guitar players I like to own a few and I sometimes buy others. Most recently I dropped around £2k on a PJD (custom shop based in York, UK) and it’s a cracker. It’s super simple, offset with a fixed bridge. Nothing fancy. But I love the look and feel. And it sounds great to my ears.
Was it “worth” it? I mean you could get an equally nicely playing guitar for ¼ the price. So, in some ways no. But at the same time, I love it. So yes?
Thanks for the comment!
Slightly sideways from the topic - from what I've heard, the devaluation tends to be higher with the boutique guitars, when compared to "big name" brands. Something to take into consideration if there is a possibility of reselling the guitar. This could affect the personal "value/cost" ratio.
Very good point!
Hello Mr. Fludd, One guitar that I wished that you would have spoken about would have been the Fender Telecaster. The reason being so that the item that is "being blueprinted" by many guitar manufacturers can have its details and cost mentioned,... along side the other mentioned guitars.
And to comment to what another poster had mentioned, for my opinion, no CHILL background music please. : )
Another interesting observation to me, more "comments" than "likes" ... to me that seems to show a very engaging audience here. : )
Do have a good rest of the week.
Thanks Greg, that is a good point. Kind of unfair of me to mention tele as our example and not even discuss fender. I plan to do a lot about Fender in 2023. I honestly feel they are pretty good compared to other companies of their size.
Love your videos but the popping sound is really bad on recent videos. My guess is it’s happening while you’re tracking the audio in your DAW. That popping is often times a buffer issue or a driver issue. Your content is so good and it deserves great audio!
I fixed it on my latest podcast. Sorry about that!
Knaggs all day long and twice on Sunday. They’re just the guitars FOR ME. I love how they play, how they sound and the company is small and pay great attention to detail.
Took my 50s Classic Vibe strat added a Fralin loaded pickguard with Vintage Hots and have an amazing $626 strat.
Sounds like an awesome strat!
That’s my strategy with all my guitars. I can fix the frets the nut bridge etc and upgrading electronics for a nominal price and I would have added $1k in manufacturer price.
If the wood is good, everything else can be replaced.
I got to admit though, the Knaggs white guitar looks really cool...not $3650 cool, but still cool. All of Knaggs guitars are over priced though. Just because he used to work for PRS, makes his better? Tone is in the marketing I guess. Alder is a common tree in the Pacific Northwest. It's so common, they even have a town named after it in Washington State. Its not any special wood. Common like a weed. Warmoth has a problem of trying to pimp this wood as something special as well. It's a good wood for strats and soloists. Bright and responsive...But the wood should only be about $50 after the CNC machining. Even after paint, a good set of pickups costs more. Honestly, you can still get a great playing guitar for 1000 to 1500. It's all in the set-up. Kiesel have always been on my list though. I would definitely get one from them if I was in the market for a guitar.
They all look cool!
We are having a hard time in Europe now. Months or years of wait to have even a Fender AV II or a Musicman Stingray Special. We're not even talking Cutom Shop or boutique brands here.
I called my shop last week for a Suhr Pete Thorne Signature, and he told me that Suhr increased the brand from 3800 to 5800 euros, and I will have to wait for 2 years minimum. That's insane.
Prices in EU are insane, delays are insane. A MusicMan Stingray Special is 4000 euros now.
I love your videos. I could've left a half dozen comments with my two cents already and I'm not even halfway thru the video. I'm glad I found you.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that.
Just love the way you layered up this conversation - a very long time overdue
You might be over looking that certain brands are charging a premium for the name on the head stock, yes a Suhr T-style guitar is not that much different than any other T-style guitar but if you want the name on the head stock to say Suhr then you pay whatever the manufacturer thinks that’s worth. Just like a pair of Jordan’s or a Rolex watch. There’s the sum of the materials and the labor involved (as you pointed out) but then there is the intrinsic value that comes from the brand name.
I'm sure I overlooked a lot. Thanks for your insight!
first thing I do when evaluating a guitar is check its weight, generally speaking lighter is better. the second thing I do when evaluating a guitar is check for playability which can be broken down into ergonomics and intonation and setup. obviously, more playable guitars with better intonation and setup are preferable. as far as economics goes, some guitars are overpriced for what you get, but very few guitars are underpriced for what you get. I've bought sold and traded more than 200 guitars, price and quality typically move in the same direction, I've owned some expensive instruments that were worth every penny and some budget guitars that exceeded their value proposition. guitars are things we love and even covet so rational decision making does not always factor into our guitar purchases.
All good things to check!
you made some great points but i think your underestimating the cost a kiesel telecaster with similar specs. using the builder on the kiesel site, a one piece ash telecaster with a sunburst finish and hardcase would be $2134. the suhr's neck also has a pau ferro back which isn't a option on the keisel builder. the suhr listing is also from overseas so the exchange rate is probably contributing to the cost.
Fair enough, add 150$ to my 2000 price point. Inflation is crazy. I got a crazy Kiesel Vader for around 1300 about 5 years ago. New.
I don't like how much of the price of boutique guitars is the time it takes to do a relic job. I love a satin, worked in feel but not a relic. I feel its an easy way for a company to get out of doing a proper finish.
I recently went to a large shop in Toronto, and was set on a Tom Anderson or Suhr. I left with a MusicMan BFR Valentine. Everything about it is perfect, and it looks like nothing else. It sings, unplugged and plugged in, and the flamed neck has a beautiful satin finish. The others were good too, but the non-relics felt better to me overall than those by Paoletti and Fender CS.
I think im going to be focusing mainly on boutique brands from now on. Frank Bros is next on my list.
Good luck!
research and knowledge can go a long way.tom anderson was one of the main builders/movers at zion guitars in the 80s,i think.the brand isnt that well known,and old zion models can be found under 1000 dollars/pounds used,and they are technically,well some of them,tom anderson guitars before he formed his own brand.in the 80s/90s gary levinson was sort of seen as the then paul reed smith of the time,he added vsc switching systems etc was a luthier who listened to what guitarists wanted,levinson blade guitars were swiss company,made in japan to a very high standard,and were generally more expensive than fender counterparts at the time.played by many session guys at the time.the top mij models rh4 etc,distinguished by the fender style headstock/suhr type head for usa market,go used for about 1600,with other older mij blades being found under a 1000,and are far better spec,put together guitars than many that can be found now at high prices,i own a old mij blade,end of 90s blade moved to korea,and became more of a production line guitar,non fender headstock,a bit on par with fender mexico,but the earlier 80/90s blades were mostly hand made in japan,they like zion have a small following,but most youth/young players have never heard of them,or only know the later korea/china made blades.so if you know youre guitar history,you can find guitars on par with many of these big boutique,high priced guitars for much cheaper.g and l are another company that are more bang for the buck than fender,with modern style bridge,tone circuit etc after all ,they were leos last company,and he reckoned g and l with their tweaks,improvements,were the best guitars he made,though they still dont have the marketing clout,or sales of fender.then youve got the vintage heads,some dont want tweaks,improvements to the original designs lol g and l like keisel ,will build you a great guitar,to youre own personal spec/choice for far less than suhr/tom anderson/fender custom shop
Thanks for your comment. Exactly the things o hoped we would discuss. I didn’t really factor in the historical component.
I certainly understand (and share) your pricing questions. As another Tele example, I just received delivery of my Sire T7 ( the traditional single-coil version) after a seven month wait. This thing is absolutely flawless, and has the perfect Tele tone. Roasted maple satin neck, locking tuners, bone nut, compensated brass saddles, flawless fret-work…the works. Sire is a small builder, supply is low, demand is high. I paid $527.00 new (I actually got Sweetwater to give me a $72.00 discount when I ordered it). I cannot see ANY way that this Tele could be improved. Other than historical examples, why oh why do some of these other Teles cost thousands??
Agreed!
Hey man I'm glad I found your channel it's really good. I've kind of had this same problem with these boutique companies and what they charge. Now let me get this out of the way first, I understand these instruments are great and the attention to detail is extraordinary, but in my head I can't justify their prices when essentially they are making "partscasters" basically. I have found for me that an American Standard Strat plays and sounds just as well as a Suhr but for half the price. Essentially I have bought used fender strats and teles and changed out pickups, tuners and took it to a good luthier for things like fret dressings, nut slotting or set ups if its needed. After all that I end up spending about half or most of the time less of what a Suhr costs. I can't bring myself to buy a Suhr or any other boutique guitars when they are making copies of existing guitars and not really adding anything new to the classic design besides a different shaped headstock.
I totally get your point, and that’s basically also what I did my whole life. But the Novo…the Novo is special. Trust me, if it wasn’t special I would LOVE LOOOOOVE to make a video bashing 3,000+ priced guitars. I still will make that video if I come across a brand charging that price for an average guitar. I’m not a total believer in the boutique thing just yet, but I’m going to give it my best fair look.
@@andrefludd Honestly Novo was the only one I was considering and the Rivolta line is very interesting to me. Novo at least has a look to their guitars. Obviously they are offset inspired but with their own spin on it. I would actually love to try a Bilt but haven't yet. I think I have more of a problem with builders who make strat and tele copies with no real changes or a unique twist to he overall design. They could literally put a fender logo on the headstock and tell me its vintage and I'd believe them because they're pretty much spec'd out the same.
Love this, thank you, very good discussion. How to define quality? What makes the mona lisa so good(but for guitars)? Suhr has led the way with stainless steel frets, something I consider necessary, I destroy normal frets in a few months. Other than that you need good setup, resonance, magic pickups, tuners and bridge that don't go out of tune, and you want it to be cool in your style. It is known that principle of diminishing returns. This can be mitigated by buying used sometimes.
Here's an acoustic analog of your discussion: I play my 400 dollar classical more than more expensive Taylor, but when I play the Taylor i see it does have value. I get a nice chunky muted tone from my 250 dollar ovation, that I can't get from my Taylor.
Thank you!
If you're a bean-counter (i.e., accountant), the answer is almost surely "yes." But guitar-buyers are rarely entirely rational. Just as emotion factors into how we feel about a particular song or guitar chop, it factors into the instruments we buy, and how much we're willing to pay for them.
Good point!
The difference between a Suhr guitar and most other brands that cost less mostly has to do with materials and attention to detail. Suhr uses BETTER woods (typically lighter, more resonant, more consistent) that are dried longer, and more carefully. This is the same difference you will see between a Custom Shop instrument from Gibson or Fender, vs their standard production offerings. I'm not talking about pretty woods, or flashy tops. Of course, Suhr offers those too, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about all their woods, even the plain tops covered in opaque finishes, and the quality of Suhr's necks. Suhr hand-selects their timber, and often times other companies utilize woods that Suhr rejected.
Next, Suhr uses stainless steel frets that are Plek'd correctly, as opposed to the one-size-fits-all Plek treatment from Gibson, which isn't truly a Plek treatment, since those require full string tension and hand finishing on a guitar-by-guitar basis. Kiesel does not offer Plek treatments, for two reasons. Jeff Kiesel says that a Plek treatment is largely window dressing, unless it's performed by a skilled technician who has the knowledge and takes the time to do it right for each instrument. Kiesel is correct there, but that is exactly what you get from Suhr or Tom Anderson. They do it right, which is evident in the superior fretwork and playability of their instruments. As fine as Kiesel's fretwork is, it isn't as precise as Suhr's, nor are their nuts cut as well. In order to bring a Kiesel to the level of a Suhr, it still needs a thorough Plek service performed by a Plek professional who knows what he's doing. This level of service includes dialing in the nut, saddles, neck relief, action, and fret dressing in conjunction with the Plek leveling.
Kiesel's other, unstated reason for not offering the Plek service is cost. Kiesel simply produces too many instruments for a full, correct Plek treatment on every guitar to be cost-efficient within their mass-production business model. This is why Gibson's Plek treatment is not a true Plek service. A real Plek treatment would slow down the production time too much while also adding cost to the build.
Another area in which Kiesel saves cost vs Suhr is the different finishes offered by each company. Simply put, Suhr's top-of-the-line thin nitro lacquer finishes are costlier and more time-consuming than Kiesel's basic satin or gloss poly finishes. California-based companies such as Suhr and Kiesel are not allowed by law to spray vintage-correct nitro lacquer. Instead, they are forced to move that portion of the build to Arizona, which adds to the cost of the instrument. The other alternative is to add plastic to the nitro lacquer formula, which isn't considered to be a true nitro finish. Kiesel does offer their Raw Tone finish, but only with certain other finishes, and those instruments are non-returnable, negating one of the main fail-safes when buying a mail-order-only guitar: the ability to try it out and return it if you don't like it.
No such worries with a Suhr, since they're sold through conventional dealers who offer industry-standard return policies.
Kiesel has nearly impeccable fit and finish on their latest instruments. This is true. So does Suhr, and here is where another huge difference between those two companies reveals itself: customer service. Kiesel, as well as their previous Carvin namesake, were and remain infamous for their arrogant, dismissive customer service, while Suhr is almost universally regarded as having among the best customer service in the business. Jeff Kiesel is rightly proud of his company and his builds, to the point that he seems to take a perverse pride in the arrogance he often displays to disgruntled customers. Do any online search, and you will discover that this complaint against Kiesel is legion. Meanwhile, a similar search regarding Suhr will reveal a similar consensus, only in the opposite direction, in terms of how well John Suhr treats his customers. John Suhr is an absolute legend in the guitar world, yet he still treats his customers with patience, understanding, and humility. If anyone could ever afford to be an arrogant jerk, it's John Suhr, but he never behaves that way. Rather than insist on telling you he's right, which is Jeff Kiesel's constant refrain, Suhr simply wants to make his guitar right for you, especially after the sale.
Think Nordstrom's, vs JC Penney.
All of these things are reflected in the resale value of each company's instruments. While Kiesel has definitely improved in this area vs their Carvin days, they're still a long way off from Suhr's strength in the used market. With a Suhr, you know you're purchasing the finest of everything, with no shortcuts anywhere, and you know that the people who built the guitar will stand behind it for you long after the sale.
Lastly, regarding the tonewoods thing, all I can tell you is that the people who handle literally hundreds of guitars, thousands of guitars, i.e., people who aren't relying on very limited anecdotal evidence or internet lore, are all in agreement that tonewoods make a difference. Is it as large of a difference as swapping out the electronics in an electric guitar?
No. Definitely not. Nonetheless, talk to a Greg Koch, a Guthrie Govan, a Pete Thorn, or anyone else who regularly reviews and demonstrates countless guitars year after year after year, and they will smile knowingly while rolling their eyes whenever they hear about internet comments assuring people that the woods used make no difference in the tone of an electric guitar.
Trust the people with the most hands-on experience; the people whose business is to know such things. Not necessarily the builders, either. If you want to accuse them of snake oil salesmanship, fine, but trust the players. Trust the people who have played everything, in great abundance, and who have no reason to lie to you.
Just sayin'.
great detailed comment. I learned a lot, thank you! I may have to save the tone wood talk for a different podcast. Simply put, I totally understand what you are saying in terms of players saying they can tell etc. I LOVE Guthrie Govan and Greg Koch, but just because they are amazing players doesn't mean they can't also be wrong about the tone wood debate. Placebo is such a massive factor in science they need tests where even the test giver doesn't know the truth. If a double blind study comes out and shows that 51% of high level guitarists can repeatedly identify tone wood in lab conditions, I will believe it. At this point, there is zero scientific or physics evidence to lead one to believe it exists in any way that is useful for us to pursue. Sometimes the science takes a while to catch up to the human experience. If it does, and we get hard evidence of tone woods being a thing, I'll be the first one saying I WAS WRONG. I have no vested interest either way. Thanks again for your comment!
@@andrefludd The thing about Greg Koch in particular is not just that he's an amazing player. Rather, it's that he's spent the majority of his very lengthy career as a professional demonstrator of guitar gear. There are periods when he plays more guitars in a month than the rest of us will play during our entire lifetimes. He is also about as down-to-earth and no-nonsense pragmatic as any born-and-bred Wisconsinite ever could be. Point being, he's played a million examples of every guitar in every flavor of wood. When he says that there is a tonal/response difference between ash and alder, even if it's only a 10% or less difference, and he (and others with a similar level of experience) can absolutely tell the difference in feel between tubes vs solid state or mahogany vs maple, I have little reason to doubt them.
Another way of looking at this is no one disagrees that woods make a difference in an acoustic guitar. All other things being equal, a maple dreadnought with a spruce top obviously sounds different from a rosewood body with a cedar top. Well, most electric guitars tend to want the most acoustically resonant guitar, right? Theory being, what sounds good acoustically, what resonates the best, will be amplified by the electronics. The starting point is still the starting point. A better, or different, starting point will result in a better or different amplified tone. The difference is much less in an electric than with an acoustic, but guitarists habitually live and die in search of those differences, no matter how minute they may be.
$3K for a used Klon Centaur instead of a nearly-identical-sounding JHS version, anyone? How about a real Dumble for $300K? It sounds totally different from a $1,000 off-the-shelf Fender tweaked to sound like a Dumble, right?
Minute differences matter. For some people, everything matters.
As proof of this, I offer as evidence your obsession with the tiniest advantages in playability and noiseless function in all your guitars. For many players, many of the things you require are of no consequence at all to them, but they mean everything to you.
it's tough to know what you don't know. some guitars stand out as individuals for your touch etc. maybe the cost isn't what you should look at. I've had maybe five or less guitars in my hands that were 'magical'. -- nothing to do with cost or brand. I've owned thousands of guitars. I still look for the magic that I found a few times. One of the guitars was a gibson (sold it to a student. at the time i didn't realize how rare it was for everything to come together like that) but i've owned many more than 100 gibsons. none comes close.. one on the list was a michael tuttle t style (maybe his number 40 or something). they wouldn't let me buy it at employee price and someone else got it. I have others by michael. They're great, for the most part, but not like that one. Tom Anderson team makes really wonderful guitars. I own some that are not included in the magical list but I would play them gladly anytime. I think price is for the chance that the guitar is magical but I convince myself that my expensive ones are worth it even though what i thought was magic about them may have worn off with time. Play to get better. tone is touch. Right now I'm improving with a really well set up tele kit guitar i built for around 400
I'm also getting more into teles.
From my research, cost of labor in the US (driven by cost of living in the US) and nitro finish (driven by how long it takes to apply) seem to be the two largest price drivers for vintage-style boutique guitars.
That said, both the Kiesel and the Suhr Tele-style guitars are made in USA and are poly finished, so I’m not sure what’s driving the price difference there. Maybe just supply vs. demand.
I wish the cost of labor in the US was driven by the cost of living. Then maybe I’d be able to be a professor instead of trying to also be a UA-camr 😂
@@andrefludd Ha true! Don’t get me started on how broken academia is. I know all about #altac careers too. That could be its own UA-cam channel! Really enjoying your videos so hope you keep it up :)
After having watched a few videos, I've gathered that you like thicker necks, SS frets, locking tuners, tremolos, and tuning stability. I would recommend maybe you take a look at some of the Suhr signature models like the newer Ian Thornely Classic T and Pete Thorn Standard HSS. Maybe even the Mateus Asato Classic S. A feature you will appreciate on Suhrs, because of your noise sensitivity, is that they feature hum reduction circuits for their single coil equipped guitars. I have yet to own a Suhr guitar personally but I've seen(through forums) how great their customer service can be when addressing the seemingly infrequent issues that arise with their products. I can attest their pickups and reactive load boxes are great.
I recently picked up a USA PRS Silver Sky and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on one of these at some point. Personally, it fulfills my want for a lightweight example of a 60s strat with a thicker neck and some needed modern updates on the classic design like locking tuners, a truss rod you can access without popping off the neck, taller frets, eliminating points of friction points (string trees), and a smooth tremolo with a pop-in arm. All of this while keeping the essence of a vintage instrument through the sound of the pickups, a 6 point (although, improved) tremolo that can be decked, and the rounder fretboard radius. I also find the heel joint to be a slight improvement and I appreciate the quality of the thinner nitro finish.
I am really excited to try Shur! I also have a SilverSky USA. That review will come in November for sure.
Kiesel feels great, but in my honest opinion. Regardless of any feature. They dont feel as "worked on" as Suhr, Tom Anderson, or Fujigen Expert for that matter
Thanks for that, I'll have to try myself to see!
I have the Jason Becker and it is definitely worth the money.
I don't really have a suggestion. I don't have a good reason why these guitars are priced as they are other than the fact that these companies know that there is a market that is willing to pay these prices. Many of the buyers in this market are in fact attracted to the price itself. I saw this in music retail. Sometimes the price paid for a guitar can become a badge of honor in and of itself for someone who wants a piece to show off and brag about. "Yeah, I paid $$$$ for this guitar!"
The only one of these brands I've personally played is Suhr. I've played S's and T's and it left me with mixed feelings. They were quality guitars in every way. No blemishes of any kind. The setup would appeal to many but I have quirky setup tastes so I would have to tweak it. That's the case with any guitar I buy. For me though, the guitars didn't speak to me. Yes they were perfect in many ways but I judge guitars with my ears first. The voice of the guitar means much more than any ergonomic considerations. I'm willing to sacrifice some ergonomics for a voice that I like. To me the guitars sounded sterile compared to my beloved Fenders. Similar voice of course, but something was missing to my ears. Less woody somehow. Bear with me here, but if Fender is a fresh homemade biscuit, Suhr was a biscuit that didn't flake or crumb when you bit into it. That's an out there reference I know but I like to use food as a comparison sometimes with music and instruments. This kind of thing is totally subjective and "sterile" to me might mean "bell like fidelity" to someone else.
The fact that you didn’t love Suhr just shows how at the end of the day this is highly individual and there’s no 1 size fits all.
@@andrefludd Speaking of high end boutique guitars...
I'm in Atlanta and I just got back from seeing Vai play at the Variety Playhouse. He broke out the Hydra and played "Teeth Of The Hydra". What an instrument and what a performance! Not just the Hydra but the whole show.
Side note: the most expensive pickups available are Seymour Duncan Zephyrs. $1000 a set or more. They use silver wire which is the most conductive metal available industrially. But you are buying about two and a half pounds of silver processed into fine gauge wire. In addition silver is brittle compared to copper, so winding the pickups takes longer.
I've never seen a set of these in person. Hell, I don't believe Seymour Duncan even has a demo anywhere to compare them to their other products. Yet I can point out a flaw in anyone trying to advocate using them: even with silver in the pickups, the rest of the circuit from the pots to the output jack is copper. I've yet to see any silver pots, switches or jacks. That's likely another $500 or more, and if anyone can point out where to find such things, I'd be happy to know.
Long story short: Zephyrs don't show up often because barely anyone buys them, and for many splendid reasons more than I've pointed out here. It's overkill. But that's speaking from no small point of ignorance.
Yea, I've seen them, they are def overkill. But would be fun to try!
The Suhr in the pic will feature a quartersawn neck. That’s more expensive. It will more than likely feature a compound radius. Modern features.
Thanks! Kiesel will also have the compound radius ;).
The Fano Alt de Facto and Novo will make most LPs get back in their case.
I have quite a few higher end guitars and the best built of the bunch is a Carvin V220 from 1984.
I've never played a Carvin that old.
Just a comment for the algorithm. I have no experience of this price segment so unqualified to contribute to the debate beyond my gut reaction, which says that once you go over about 1500 dollars it becomes a very steep curve of increasingly marginal gains and lower price-performance, a bit like with hi-fi and racing bicycles (which I DO know a lot about).
You are the best! Thanks
I play a reverend guitar. While I don't feel my skill is worth spending more than around 1k usd on a guitar, I am beyond happy with it. Things like locking tuners, treble bleed circuit and such, became things I would really miss if they didn't came with the guitar. Most other guitars in that price range, and even more, mainly the big brands, will not deliver, for my taste.
Love reverend they make great guitars
I think youd be pretty happy with a Suhr or TA, their finishing and attention to detail is superb.
I hope I can try them in 2023.
I got a Tom Anderson guardian angel recently. I'm fine if I have to sell all my other high end guitars 🙂 (Fender MIA Strat, Suhr Modern, Ibanez AZ Prestige, Strandberg). It is that good of a guitar.
Tom Anderson makes the finest ekectric guitars in the workd. Spattention to detail, hechas thecmost anaing neck joint, patened linear dovetail. Tom worked fir Schecter Guitars fir nearly five yesrs, when Schechtervwas sold and they statrt3d majing thrm in Japan, Tim wuick. dave Schecter was the working for Fadal. fadal made CNC machines fir the areosoace and medicak industry. Dave arranged fir Fadal to modify Fadal to be compatible with wood. tom es# the first guitar manufacture to have CNC machine. Tom also became the go to guy for CNC training. He taught Taylor, Martin, Lowden, Gibson, and others. I have the 3 Andersons, my Telecastervwas made in 1985, the neck has never moved 1mm in sll those years.
I had co-designed the Godin Acousicaster with my friend Lloyd Baggs in the 1980s. In1992 there had been many changes made to our original design for Godin, we were paid a fee on each guitarr. that year we went our separate way. I tgst contacted with mentor and dear pal Roy Noble ( on of the bes5 acoustic luthiers in America) and we started to design a better thinline acoustic guitar. I had Tom Anderson make the neck for the Rosebud, body, bracing, assembly and and nitro lacquer done at Roys shop. Out of 479 Rosebuds made not one neck ever required service.
You should post a shorter text version of this question on The Gear Page forum and wait for Ron Kirn to reply. He seems to have the best no nonsense answers for anything guitar related and has a lot of insider knowledge. Actually, he's probably covered this before, just depends if you're able to find the post.
That's a good idea.
The Suhr tele example blew me away. I was lucky enough to do an option order G&L ASAT Classic (turned out killer, btw) before inflation took off and came in around $1600. And that includes their unique pickups. I really can’t imagine a $3k Suhr outplaying it or sounding better.
You should go the custom partscaster route where you can specify everything, given how particular you are about things. Warmoth body if you don't want a nitro relic, MJT if you want a nitro relic. Warmoth, Musikraft, or USACG for the neck. Then pay a trusted luthier to assemble it and do the final finishing. I don't see how it wouldn't come out just as good as any other boutique stuff and would probably be under $1500.
MJT bodies are cheapest ($250 or less) buying premade via ebay auction. You can custom spec one for $450. They offer great deals for neck/body/hardware combos (under $1k). If you don't want a relic neck, it's cheaper to buy separately since there's a labor cost for the relic. Musikraft and Warmoth upcharge differently so spec a neck how you want and see who does it cheaper. You could probably get up to $2k if you go crazy with upcharged neck specs and more expensive hardware (mastery bridge etc) but that's not bad to have everything EXACTLY how you want, with all top of the line stuff, and again, you could use a trusted luthier so you'd have great craftsman ship from manufacturing to finishing just like a boutique guitar.
I'll def do that at some point!
I built a Tele with a USACG neck. That neck is perfect!
Excellent topic and fully understand where you’re coming from here. Have wondered about these things many times myself when shopping guitars.
Thank you!
In the 90s, there were a lot more forward thinking brands. Maybe that had to do party with more privately owned shops. Parker, swr, eden, Tacoma, just to name a few. They were all absorbed and dismissed by the big brands. It was an exciting time for gear. Not that there are not forward thinking brands now, but they are just not in the stores.
Also, many of the brands are made in the same factory now. That takes the fun out of it too.
That’s true a lot of guitars are made overseas by the same people.
I would say a LOT of it is the amount of labor, and the rate at which that labor is paid. From what I've seen, a skilled worker can make a neck in X amount of time. They can do it well in some multiple of that time, maybe more, maybe less. The details are much better, and you can feel them, but it is difficult to justify the price. Knaggs was founded by a former PRS employee, maybe a shop manager or designer who wanted to go out on his own. The founder has a lot of credibility. I've got a Suhr Tele and a Fender Tele, and I can tell you that the Suhr is much better in every way. The Suhr was probably twice the price of the USA Fender, and in terms of "feel" it's probably twice as good. If you look at it as one set of wood bolted together vs another set of wood bolted together, it is difficult to justify. The Suhr has a roasted maple neck which would increase the price, as well as nicer wood with a nicer finish with better hardware. A lot of the rationalization for the higher prices are difficult to see because it's stuff like "feel" or "reputation." I've got an Ibanez J Custom RG with a tree of life neck inlay and flamed maple top that is absolutely beautiful. Does it play better than their $1,200 RG? Not by the 2.5x price difference. It wasn't even set up very well when I got it. If there was a graph that could explain it, there would be a direct correlation between quality and price up to a certain level, then price would go up much, much faster than quality.
Labor is a big factor for sure, thanks!
Knaggs has Steve Stevens as a celebrity player. Tom Anderson has a team and they build a few hundred per year. The Fano is shaped like a LP Jr, not a Studio which has a carved top.
Thanks for the facts!
Oh, check out K-line guitars, they are the best value in the market segment being discussed, imo.
I was going to suggest this too. Never played one but UA-camr John Nathan Cordy’s review turned me onto them.
He’s a sick player. K line looks like a good thing to try.
🇺🇸 Factory made guitars must have high retail prices not just to survive,but be profitable !!!💯
I love Keisels. That said, the Shur and Tom Anderson have better resale value for sure and debatably better fret jobs and playability in generally. That, at the least...
It all comes down to the business model. Kiesel advertises themselves as a kind of budget custom shop. Value is their brand. Unfortunately, that means they don’t hold their value as well as a Suhr, Knaggs, or Collings, which are priced at a premium and advertised as luxury items.
That’s another good point. these guitars are the Chanel and YSL of the guitar world. Undoubtedly great quality but you are also paying the luxury tax.
Suhr owner here! I have two of them, and I love them. I think the model you picked is a bad representation of the newer suhr stuff and definitely over priced. My thoughts on what makes suhr worth it IF you like what suhr does:
The necks are phenomenal, all stainless steel frets. If you want the feel of a suhr neck, nothing else that I have played comes close.
Custom staggered locking tuners. The tuner heights are all custom picked for an even break angle.
His pickups are very modern vintage and have a certain feel and sound. If you love them, they are great.
He has an excellent noise killing system paired with his single coil guitars. I have a p90 one, I wouldn’t be able to handle the noise live without the built in system. It’s great.
That being said, I paid 2400 for my alt t and my jm pro new, 3K for a used old one is just too much. His newer ones are way more worth it.
Great this helps a lot. I’m looking at the offset! It looks awesome wit the trem bridge. Thank you!
You're a black guy? I never noticed. Lol This comes from the bottom of my heart: It's very nice and refreshing to have a friendly, knowledged, intelligent, rational, honest and empathetic person on this platform. Thank you!
Why thank you Bradley. I really appreciate that.
I agree that a lot of these builders are out of their mind with what they are charging for these things. Suhr imo is a very good example of this. Yes he was a fender master builder and that adds a lot of value to the guitars he makes but most of it is just fender type guitars with a more modern neck.
So many of these vintage-style custom guitars are straight-up inferior spec-wise and just focus on aesthetics. As someone who obsesses over design flaws, it is incredibly frustrating to see. It is also frustrating because I love the aesthetic of vintage guitars fenders especially. I would love to see a builder who blended vintage aesthic with modern features: stainless steel frets, good bridges that don't have design flaws, ratio tuners, flat fingerboard radi, good pickups. With a vintage aesthetic. Electric guitars are imperfect instruments and for me personally I want to minimize them. I'm at the point now where I can't justify buying a new guitar that is over 1k if it doesn't have stainless steel frets much less 3k+.
Yea I feel like ss frets are a must
@@andrefludd Well last year Esp/LTD started doing SS frets on all guitars 1k plus which is a big deal imo. I am more of an ibanez guy because I prefer their 7 string necks but they are out here charing 1400 on up without them. Just can't justify it. My next guitar will probably end up being a kiesel in all honesty
I built a strat type guitar with custom parts from warmoth everything was roasted and I chose the weight of each component and my own selection of hardware and bridge and had it pleked and setup and it’s better than any production model Bolt on super strat you can purchase it rings like a novos but cost 1860 with tax
Hmmm well that fits under the specified price
Dr Andre fludd 2024!!!
Great podcast. The ken Parker archtop is beautiful. I recommend looking at bilt guitars out of Iowa, they're ij the 3k-7k range and stuff. I'm not sure if they're more rejection or perfection style of guitars like rhett says but they're cool regardless. The headstock is It for me!
The thing for me with bilt is a custom Volare gets to me around the same price as an original vintage starcaster. So it puts me in a weird place where I could get an original if I had the money for a bilt. But the bilt could be entirely customized. And they're hand made. Decisions decisions.
Thank you! But I won’t be old enough yet haha
Adjusted for inflation the fenders of the 50/60’s are about $2k-3k. So classic guitars have always been roughly this costs.
Good point!
I don't know. Just figured I'd comment. I guess anything is worth what anyone will pay. I like the Knaggs.
Yea...I don't know either haha.
It is not only a matter of features or expensive materials. For my taste, glossy finishes, gold hardware and quilted precious wood tops are a turn-off, and I even would consider not buying a guitar when the headstock looks modern or non-classic. The are a few modern exceptions : Parker or some Musicman....
So aesthetics is a huge factor for me and I am a fan of classic guitars from the 60s and 70s.
That´s why I like fano guitars so much !
BTW the old Fanos play beautiful, their necks are amazing. Another builder is Danocaster, they make better custom shop guitars than Fender´s .
Price is the perrenially contentious issue in the guitar world. Here is a fact you don't hear much: adjusted for inflation, a 1958 Les Paul Standard cost about $3000 in today's money- so it's the same as it always has been. This is true of all 4 major price tiers. The big difference is that a lot more manufacturers are offering genuinely good instruments across all tiers. If you are willing to learn to do a set up, or pay for it, you can find a price range, determine the basic specs you want, and probably find something you love. I am a machinist and have built guitars, so there is simply not a guitar in existence worth paying more than about $3000, because there is no secret sauce or building technique other than skill and precision, which you are paying for handsomely at 3 grand. I can understand paying extra for a unique piece of art as long as you are going to play it, and not just hang it up.
I get what you are saying Kirk and I love that you included the inflation calculation, which I also do in some of my videos. But as I’m sure you are aware, American salaries and housing have not kept up with inflation. So when you look at the whole picture I just find it interesting. I tend to agree with you. I can’t see anything being worth more than $3,000-3,500. That’s why I gave the a Kiesel example of $2,000. Thanks for your comment, I love when someone with building experience shares their perspective.
Phil McKnight interviewed knaggs team recently and I will say that it's mostly for the paint!!
😂😂😂
It all comes down to the man hours and components it takes to make a guitar. That being said I don't see why any solid body electric would cost more than $2500. The Suhr is worth it vs the Kiesel because Suhr will give you perfection. Kiesel has a forum full of horror stories and the owner is known to be one of the biggest jerks in the business. To know that you're buying from someone that won't give you anything less than perfection to me adds to the dollar amount of the guitar as well as the resale value. Check out Eart guitars and see what they give you for a few hundred bucks. Stainless steel frets, bone nut, roasted maple compound radius neck, and mahogany body are standard features and they play unbelievable. Only my PRS S2 plays as well as my Eart and I have a few really nice guitars.
I don’t visit forums every so thank you for telling me that. Every experience I’ve ever had with Kiesel was amazing. Maybe I just got lucky.
The stainless steel frets on an East are softer than your standard nickel frets. Not all stainless steel is equal!
@@joeking433 I own 4 Earts for about 4-5 years now and the frets looks brand new. They are still the best budget guitar in the industry in my opinion.
@@Stratisfied22 Well, they're softer than nickel frets but it takes a lot of playing to wear grooves in nickel frets! If you have 4 you probably don't play them enough to wear grooves. I looked into Earts and won't buy one. The bridge is crap. Eart is the latest Chinese guitar that is overhyped on social media to make people rich. I would buy a Squier Affinity for a good bit less or pay a little more for a Squier Classic Vibe when looking for cheap guitars.
@@joeking433 I've owned a ton of guitars and a Squier or even a Fender for that matter doesn't come close to what Eart gives you. The bridge block alone is 3 time as thick as a Fender and the trem is one of the best I've used on a strat so I don't know what you mean there and as far as the frets you are the only one I've heard this from.
The Fano with the tele electronics and Gibson body is pretty unique at least
Beautiful instrument imo!
KNAGGS are basically a couple PRS custom shop top guys who had differences with him and wanted more design/build freedom so they broke away on their own venture. So I guess they want us to pay for that. Good stuff I'm sure but the one you showed has got to be their low end.
Pretty much, Paul Reed Smith is known to be pretty opinionated, the reason why we probably will never see PRS with steel frets or small heel. I love my 96 Custom 22, it plays and sounds fantastic. I'm not a technical player so I don't mind big heel or nickel frets. BTW I saw interview with Joe Knaggs where he bashed PRS for using slave labor, becouse of SE line, pretty disingenuous bullshit if you ak me.
Hmmm. If there are human rights abuses they deserved to be discussed but that is out of my pay grade. Oddly enough, my significant other is a international human rights attorney.
@@andrefludd I had to watch the interview again to be sure, but it was more like in general alegation - If you are making guitars in asia, you are using slave labour, because people there are paid way less than same workers in the USA and we dont like that.
Suhr guitars are pronounced- “Sir” as in The way a person says “yes sir, or no sir in a conversation. Back before the internet, a person only had their professional rep to go on, and people like John Suhr and Tom Anderson were among the first to be named dropped by pro players in guitar magazines. They made guitars, amps and pickups for NYC and LA pros in the studio scene. They have the same type of importance and history as your guy Ken Parker and they basically invented the concept of boutique guitars with a handful of others. You are paying for their real world knowledge and accomplishments. And you also are paying for their aesthetic. Also, they have managed to make high quality guitars for numerous years and made companies like Fender and Ibanez have to up their quality to not lose business to them. Nowadays, more production guitars try to look like Suhr and Anderson made them. There were many years when Fender, etc only made very plain, solid color guitars with little or no attention to the natural beauty of different wood patterns. I bought my first Suhr guitar in 2003 and it was approx $2400.00 back then… and totally worth it
Thanks for this history. That helps a lot.
So you paid double for a strat for a different name on it. Cool.
@@morganghetti I not only paid double, but I also chose a Transparent Purple stain on a highly quilted maple top. That is probably some sort of imperfect trifecta for those who like to note such things.
Income perspective is a huge factor. If a person only makes $50k per year, a $1000 "affordable" guitar represents 1/50th of their income. About one week of pay. To someone who makes 1 million per year, $20k represents the exact same percentage of their income. One week. Money just isnt equal to all people.
If i had millions, i would most certainly buy $50k vintage guitars and $20k boutique guitars. Why the hell not? They aint gonna lose value. I imagine most of the high end stuff is being bought by high end collectors and is an investment just like their fine art collection.
Great point that’s for the comment!
I have a Warmoth Stratocaster body with Rio Grande calibrated handwired pickups with a solid bocote neck schaller locking tuners standard vintage tremolo bridge high end wiring and pots. Bought it all used and some from a luthier that retired. I am in it for a total of 750ish I would put l it against any custom shop out there. I could just never see paying 3-5k for a guitar of the quality I want, so it just took time and a bit of luck to find the deals and basic skills to achieve it.
Parts guitars can be amazing if you have the patience to develop a few skills like you just said!
Honestly I think it's a 1:1 parallel of Vintage vs Modern cars. Same reason you'd like or want a 69 Judge is probably the same reason you'd want a 63 P bass. Personally they're not for me, but I acknowledge and respect the mindset of the collectors. Could also compare it to sneakerheads! I don't get at all why you'd pay so much for the original production run of some Jordans but I respect it.
What I don't respect is the old timers genuinely believing that they're better than today's modern high tech stuff lol. They're different things but let's not pretend like every off the shelf Gibson and Fender from that time period was amazingly excellent. The ones that survived did so because they were great examples of them, but for every legendary 59 Les Paul out there there's probably a bunch that are just awful. That's less so with modern CNC production, where deviance to the formula is honestly just a QC issue. Yes, I get it, the hand made nature gives them a certain personality, but a lot of the times it's a bad one lol.
In the end, it's wonderful that we live in a world with enough variety to make all of us happy, and I think that's the most important part!
Agreed! These are fun convos and it’s amazing to have the luxury to have them.
Regarding the Fano. Dennis Fano built all of those guitars in his garage, before he created Novo. So they are considered highly desirable, as only a limited number were made.
Oh wow didn’t know that either! Thanks!
That story is not quite accurate. Fano turned into a company and expanded beyond Dennis. Eventually, he sold the company (probably because he was no longer enjoying himself) and then started Novo from his basement in Pennsylvania before moving it to Nashville. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fano_Guitars
@@integerdivision Thanks for clearing that up! That’s why we’re here.😊
I own Fenders and Gibsons, along with Godins and ESP. My Nightfly surpasses them all in terms of playability and design.
I can def believe that :)
I believe Les Paul Jrs are flat with 1 pup, and then the special is flat with 2 pups, and the studio and up you get the carved top.
As far as the boutique brands only the Novo with a JM style vibrato seems special enough for me to justify the cost. I get paying for experience and craftsmanship, but there also has to be a uniqueness.
Thanks! Yea, I’m def not a gibson expert as you may know haha.
@@andrefludd I contemplated getting one in the past but I think PRS does that style of guitar better. Plus they look cooler
With guitars you're not buying reality you're buying the DREAM! And with dreams the sky's the limit!
I've played a Knaggs. I've played a Suhr. I've played a Kiesel. They are all very stable compared to the garden variety guitar. Fit and finish is excellent, which is to say it will be difficult to find a flaw of any kind on any of these guitars. And I cannot see where the premium comes from.
I'm still learning too!
@@andrefludd I suggest you double down. Parker is an extinct brand. Try another orphan brand. Specifically a Brian Moore MC1 or C90. There are a few pristine examples on Reverb right now. It bears saying they have features that are similar to Parkers. Take a look.
Kiesels are really inconsistent compared to Knaggs and Suhr.
a lot of the stuff you get with vintage and vintage style guitars you can't "get" over the internet. you wont be able to discern it over specs. its in the details, that add up to a total that is greater than the sum of its parts. I , like you, am a fan of SS frets. the mohs hardness scale is very persuasive, but as PRS himself enjoys reiterating, a guitar is the sum of its parts. it isnt one two or three parts. you have to try to find a guitar that has "all" those 'vintage' features. the thing is a new guitar with all vintage appointments ISNT BEING MADE (if you try to find a real tele, that has the 7.25 radius, the nickel frets. the nitrocellulose lacquor, all that , you are buying AN INVESTMENT that gets better with time. anything else is an approximation)
Thanks for your comment
I have 3 parts guitars and they tend to be my favorite guitars. I probably have $1500 in them each
I've heard this a lot. I just don't trust myself with a parts guitar. I like knowing an expert handled mine.
@@andrefludd l live out of Nashville a bit. Glasers does the final touches. It’s honestly like they set it up then l go home play it a week and set it up. 🤪
Great content Andre...thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@andrefludd I'm glad young people like yourself are carrying on the pursuit of real instruments and not "entering" the music. Always warms my heart to know guitar playing will not be replaced with a keypad anytime soon! Keep up the good work!
I don't know but my guess is you might not understand it because vintage guitars and the players that play them just aren't your main thing. I personally love Steve Vai but I don't care for that type of tone, I don't care how easy his guitar is to play or how many features it has, if it doesn't help me get the tone I like. If I'm into Eric Johnson or Phillip Sayce or SRV who achieved a lot of my favourite tones with vintage guitars I'm going to be spending the big bucks on a vintage guitar to see what all the fuss is about, and if someone can't afford a vintage guitar they are going to chase the closest thing to it by paying extra to get as close as possible in tone and feel. Some fall between the two extremes they want more modern features but retain vintage tones, it's give and take, 24 frets change the way a neck pickup sounds for instance. At the end of the day if you play with less gain and less effects the guitars natural character and tone make more of a difference, you don't pay $2,000 for a bottle of whiskey and mix it with coke. I swapped parts with my vintage strats and fender customshops and I liked the way the old stuff sounds, even though the modern tuners worked better the vintage ones worked good enough for it not to be a big issue for me, but I completely understand others having a different preference to me on that, it comes down to your personal preference it's not all objective we are emotional beings and that influences our buying behaviours.
Very true!
I know you like more modern appointments in your guitars. I’m surprised you haven’t built a Kiesel to your specs.
I have multiple times…I mention it in the podcast
Man! You've sold me on the Kiesel.
They always came out good for me.
take off and go to namm and some high end shops. write it off as a work expense.
I would also need permission from the owners to film and all of that. Plus, I like getting time with the guitar alone, putting my own strings, listening in my house. It's hard to get a real feel in a shop.
@@andrefludd true but it is fun just to check things out. I played a 57 strat, totally beat up, it might have been black in its day. Played it through a 70s fender in equally bad condition. Think about the most compressed sound you ever heard. Just the opposite. Totally open, the music enveloped you.
I just bought a house and could not afford it. Looking back I should have found a way.
@@andrefludd you most certainly wouldn’t need permission to film or check stuff out at NAMM. With your UA-cam channel you can get membership as press or also as an educator. If you have never been, you owe yourself a trip out to Anaheim for the show one year. I have a feeling you’d LOVE it!
I have ordered 2 Carvin guitars and sold them both. The Kiezel may be better 🧐 ???
My Kiesels were great, but I am now hearing mixed responses about customer service. Perhaps I was just lucky.