I wish her dance wasn't so sexualized. She literally pole dances which is so problematic considering Romani women's history of being over sexualized. I wish they had just had her do a dance from her culture and still shown how Frollo still sexualized her, even though she wasn't actively sexuizing herself. Because it doesnt matter how a woman behaves or dresses. Some men will still sexualize them.
Hoenstly the dance wasn't very sexual at least not to me and pole dancing isn't inherently sexual and there is artistic pole dancing but unfortunately connotations
@@carolinpurayidom4570 yeah but considering the era during which it was released, most people wouldn't even make the difference between pole dancing vs sexual stripper like dancing with a pole. Most people nowadays fail to see the difference or even acknowledge there is a difference, the second a woman is moving her body then it's inherently sexual. Even if the dance itself has nothing sexual about it. If there's a woman then surely it must be sexual...according to the people who sexualize dancing of all kind. And again, it was released a few decades ago, people back then already had very harmful stereotypes about women of color or non western European people, so making her design look like this is a very indirect way of saying "oh look! not all of them are bad people, some of them are hot here you go! Some ass cheeks and boobs for you" And that's problematic. All of the non typically white women in Disney movies are made to be sexual (the woman from the Atlantis movie, the woman from road to el Dorado, pocahontas, even the cat from treasure planet) While the clothes on their own don't suffice to consider their designs sexual by nature, their mannerisms and personalities are made solely to cater to white men's sexual fantasies of non white women. Just look at the white women of Disney and how little to no sexual undertones there are when it comes to their designs and mannerisms. It is horrible considering the historical circumstances...they were all made by white men who probably weren't the best at dismantling their own racial biases. I'm glad Disney has changed and we got to see Moana for example who is everything that the poc women of Disney should've been: wearing accurate traditional clothes, not being made for white men to drool over.
@@carolinpurayidom4570 i think it was quite sexual, not that there’s anything wrong with that but it’s not right in this case cuz romani woman have been fetishized for ages now
Isnt it already toned down? The book she's sexualized more. But that's the point, all the characters even a good guy Quasimodo, sexualized and fantasized about her. They are all terrible people.
Ooh. That was brilliant especially the last part. Having male characters getting the hots for Esmeralda is a vital part of the story. It would be hard to adapt the story without putting that in to some extent. Yet you have a good solution. Esmeralda can be modest from an objective standpoint. However the guys can still have the hots for her, so the story can still work. The most modest women I have seen are nuns and Muslim women. They dress up modestly in robes and veils. This is done for religious reasons. It makes sense. Covering up the body prevents distractions. So people can focus on religion instead of carnal pleasure. Witches work the same way. They are religious too, even if their religion is very different. They got their robe and hat. Again this reduces distraction. Yet in spite of this there is still sexualization. I have seen sexy costumes for witch, nun and Muslim woman. It is so bizarre. That is missing the point. I guess men are too horny, even when women are trying to as modest as humanely possible. I guess a male version would be Beatles. These guys are modest. They often wear suits. If not they usually wear some combo of pants and long sleeved shorts. The Beatles music is very clean too. There is a lot about love, but it is a clean wholesome love. Despite the clean image, lot of fan girls still got the hots for the Beatles anyway. They went nuts. I used to have a crush on all the band members. I especially liked John Lennon. I can tell that these guys don't need to show off their bodies in order to be sexy. So any attractive person can be deemed sexy no matter how modest they are.
I met a woman who has Romani roots. She also grew up as a cirque performer. The disgusting things she was told by men, young and old, all who felt entitled to her as something exotic for them to desire, and it started when she was not yet 10.
To be fair, that's a lot of women's experience, no matter their culture or race. They just have to be somewhat attractive to get unwarranted and unwanted attention from men. I got harrassed by older men while in my school uniform, and I wasn't even very attractive or physically "mature looking". Girls in school who had larger breasts or were attractive got way worse from old men.
You make a lot of valid points. Myself included, Esmeralda provided a lot of tan/ brown skinned girls confidence in their beauty growing up. There should be an improvement in respectful and accurate Romani representation, but I can’t help but love the Disney Esmeralda. Thank you for a wonderful channel that educates on Romani culture, because we’ve learned so much! Always looking forward to your content 🥰
I can certainly understand why any racial stereotypes are harmful. But I have to say I always thought Esmeralda was so cool and beautiful when I was a little girl. I am white as can be, and I always envied her beautiful hair and skin and loved how unique she was from the other princess characters. One of my best friends was Romani (she was adopted) and we loved that she had a “princess” that looked like her. I never really knew until recently that Esmeralda’s portrayal was problematic, so I appreciate hearing new perspectives!
@@Sarah-ic4yu I respected her as a kid, because I saw how kind she was to Quasimodo, and how selfless she was in "children of God" where she would rather help her people than herself. I feel sad to know that she's a bit problematic too, but hearing other cultural perspectives is very important, and the best thing we can do is to continue learning and improving
She can be beautiful without also being sexualized. She can be beautiful with actual traditional clothing. She can be beautiful while not also falling into the stereotype of Romani women being into inappropriate work. Her not being sexualized doesn't mean changing her appearance (op even compliments the appearance they gave her and only criticizes the fact that she is the only Romani character that isn't drawn as a full steryotype) , it means changing the inaccurate parts about her that are a result of people who mischaracterized her culture for their own pleasure or gain or just to demonize them in general.
@@aceaster2657 True!!! The point of the movie is that Frollo's sexualization is wrong and that she deserves to be seen as a human with worth, kindness, and dignity, not as a sex object for Frollo to fetishize. And that's one thing that I find commendable about her character's writing. But they could have done that without making her sexualized, which would better drive home the fact that it's Frollo choosing to see her in a sexualized way, and that it's not how she actually is.
@@imthebossmermaid3648 i'm not familiar with the original victor hugo novel but I am with the musical rendition of it, so at least i have something to compare it with the disney movie. In the musical, everyone that's a main character behaves like a massive simp towards her, as they are very obviously drawn by her beauty, wich is seen as wild and animalesque, while quasimodo is the only one that notices her generous and kind nature, comforting her in all of her tribulations. She is treated as nothing more but an object of desire that gets constantly abused, both verbally and phisically, gets tortured to death twice because of whichcraft allegations, and her brutal death only worsen the situation, as frollo's disgusting intentions won her ower. Disney did an amazing job with portraying her as an actual character with an identity, her beauty is an important narrative element, but you can still immediately see how much depth and greatness she's about to deliver.
@@trippy_dragon8726 I totally agree! I think we can acknowledge the flaws in her portrayal while still commending her for being an amazing heroine with actual agency! And yeah it is sad how fetishized and dehumanized she was within the narrative and cast for being a beautiful Romani woman.
Wasn’t that the point? Her character’s existence is to oust Frollo as a hypocrite. He hates heathens and gypsies. Yet has fallen in “love” (cough cough *lust) for this beautiful woman practicing “witch craft”. Your complaints are absolutely valid and I’m in no position to speak on Romani culture. But I believe that over-sexualization was intentional to sell the idea of Frollo committing a sin by lusting.
I don't think he is arguing that she shouldn't have been. Just that because she is, she isn't really an example of "good Romani representation". Also, whilst it might have been intentional because you were writing about Frodo, using that word to describe Romani people isn't great.
It honestly strikes me as one of those things that was done without realizing the ramifications. Not to say you couldn't have had a character like this at all just if indeed a Romani person wrote the movie it would have been in a less stereotypical manner.
I like Megara (Disney's Hercules) too as a Greek woman myself.Yes the Hercules movie has stereotypes for the Greeks, but I don't find them offensive at all, in fact I think every coulture's stereotypes are in a way what makes every country unique and beautiful, if you get what I mean... Nothing to be ashamed of. I also like Esmeralda as well😊❤
This is just my perspective on this, growing up Esmeralda was the only Romani representation I had and for that she will always be special to me but it’s important to call inaccuracies and stereotypes out and hope that next time if they ever do a live action they will consult actual Romani people and do our culture justice.
@Bored. Very bored. Why do you expect him to do every ounce of research for you? Are you incapable of seeing how rude it is to ask him to explain every bit of his cultural heritage when he 1. Has made several videos explaining the reasons the romani have moved around and 2. When you are entirely capable of looking it up yourself and educating yourself. When you rely on a marginalized group to "explain" or "rationalize" their entire historical presences you are essentially telling them they must justify their existence in Europe or anywhere in the world to you, and that you don't think it's important enough to research yourself so they must do it for you. It's a childish and useless question you could've 1. Watch the wonde4ful plethora of videos he has already posted explaining this or 2. Done even the slightest bit of research for *shock horror* yourself.
@@Apathy.Apathy. Romani migrated all over, not just Europe. There were many reasons, from slavery, fleeing persecution and death, trying to find work and safety and all the reasons anyone may immigrate. Though nowhere really offers/ed asylum. They still aren't really allowed to "settle" anywhere. Romani weren't nomadic by choice.
Like I always knew Esmerelda wasn’t good representation and then I read the Victor Hugo novel and I straight up wanted to die. She’s not even Romani she was kidnapped as a baby and that’s why she’s not ugly according to Hugo. The harmful stereotypes are everywhere and the creepy depictions, like he compares her to her pet goat. And how he describes her in comparison to Frollo is so weird. He’s like “La Esmerelda has nice arms, and she pouts a lot I guess.” and then for Frollo he’s like “Frollo was 35 but looked old, in the most dignified way. Also here’s a whole page about his education and career.”. The book is so bad when it comes to Esmerelda.
esmeralda was not a deep character in the book, but that was partially because of her actually being not so deep i think. she was portrayed as a naive 16 year old who just wanted to sing, dance and live her life, not an educated adult who’s all philosophy and science. and i think that’s pretty realistic and there’s nothing wrong with that. but i agree yes it’s a shame we don’t really get to see her insight and thoughts. we even learn about her childhood from an another character, not from the writer himself. also i didn’t get what you mean by “in the most dignified way” like i remember hugo always depicted him as kind of an abominable looking man. and also, there were many descriptions made for her looks both from the author and other characters
@@romarose she wasn’t alone i think she was well-protected around her community. hugo even said they had a respect for the girl like virgin mary. but what did hugo know about romani people anyway? but yeah the book esmeralda didn’t really have parents either
I also read the novel and I honestly find your analysis of her character, and evaluation of his kind of underwhelming. First of all, she’s not a “complex” character because she represents an idea/state of being-goodness. She’s a compassionate, loving and genuine soul especially for her time, but is left rather blank because that’s what the novel needs to continue its idea. Frollo on the other hand was set out to be an intellectual and a philosophical figure in of himself, but was also portrayed as extremely flawed and what’s wrong with having those qualities as your only defining characteristic (intelligence) I mean, dude, in the end he’s literally killed by his adopted son cause he was such an absolute dick.
@@messiahofthefirst.3415 exactly and even if she wasn’t meant to portray anything, she still doesn’t need to be “complex” -in terms of education and matureness- she’s a shallow teenager and that’s valid and realistic. we are not meant to look up to her we are meant to feel sorry for her or want to protect her ig
Okay, wild guess here: the movie is through the lenses of 3 men. This is why she's portrayed as this way. She is the desirable woman for them. I'm more than sure she was like this to make audience understand why those 3 men were so into her
@@imthebossmermaid3648 reread their comment. Plenty of media puts you through the lenses of the shitty people. It doesn't mean it's okay, which goes back to the video. It's not good rep for the fact it's through the lenses of shitty ppl.
@@RasmusVJSI mean that's what fictional characters are supposed to do, drive the narrative, especially supporting characters. The protagonist? Sure, but Esmeralda is more or less a plot device to drive the protagonist and antagonist's motivations
"She is called slurs all throughout the movie" Ehm... Yeah, this movie takes place in a specific place at a specific time, and it just so happens that back then the word "Romani" wasn't used. In this specific case also consider that she does need to be an outcast in order for her character to work.
I think it's so very important for non-Romani/Middle Eastern people who grew up with movies like this and Aladdin (myself included) to realize that you can still appreciate the positive memories you have with these movies, while also being mature enough to recognize their very real and present flaws. Nothing will ever change if we just say, "But it's nostalgic for me, so it's fine."
Yeah indeed i think aladdin was well animated and had some fun jokes and songs. But that doesn't excuse that many characters in the movie are stereotypes thrown together with a stereotypical accent while the main character is voiced by an american sounding white guy
@@rosykindbunny1313no one said you can't enjoy the nostalgia, but continuing to ignore the glaring stereotypes in movies because they were "products of their time" does not excuse it.
I'm an opera singer and I would really love for you to do an exploration of the character Carmen in the Bizet opera of the same name. I can definitely see elements of over sexualised fetishism of Romani women along with harmful stereotypes and attitudes in general throughout the opera, and I would really love to hear your thoughts on it. Also, just wanted to say I love this channel! I'm learning so much and it is doing so much good for the world. ❤
Carmen is guilty of misrepresenting both Roma people (wich I am not) and Spanish people (wich I am). The music is wonderful, but the protagonist... not so much.
@@morganlefay195 you know, I always did wonder why Carmen was soo sexualized and described as a sexual wanderer. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Not only is it misrepresenting two peoples, it's also really damn sexist.
I thought the whole point was learning to not sexualize her. Frollos whole thing was that he was desperately lustful for her and he shouldn't have been. I thought the themes of not objectifying women were very impactful and grown up for a Disney movie.
Same thoughts here! The point was to make her beautiful! It defeats the purpose if she looked like everyone else. I also don’t think that she dresses too sexually either. The only sexual thing I see that’s her own is cleavage.
Especially when comparing Phoebus and Quasi to Frollo. Frollo just objectified her and lusted after her. Quasi saw her as an angelic, beautiful savior. Phoebus was attracted to her sex appeal, but fell for her attitude and bravery.
Also, she's a foil to Frollo, she's free-spirited and fun, while Frollo is close minded and serious, I'm pretty sure there's more, but I haven't seen the movie in years
@@Josue-mv2fo there's alot more to the movie. one of its main themes is the Romani people being cast out and marginalized, and esmerelda trying to find safety and comfort for her people, no matter if she has to sacrifice herself. i think, specifically in the song Children of God, the writers touch on a little bit of the nihilism that marginalized people feel, and how some of us feel this because of how unfairly were treated.
I dont think esmeralda was over sexualized. Some women are just sexy in their nature. She doesn't wear revealing clothing or anything but as women who have curves no matter what we wear people think we're over sexualized.
Being sexualized isn't about how they look, but how they are portrayed. And taking into account that three different important male characters were completely enamored by her, and looking at how she was animated, I don't think it can really be argued that she wasn't sexualized.
@RasmusVJS men being attracted to you is not being sexualized. What frolo did was sexualing her but everyone knew he was being evil. curvy women are always seen as sexual beings whether we want it or not. I can't wear a v neck without people thinking I'm a slut. She was a fearless leader. She was smart and kind and those are the qualities that Quasimodo and pheobus fell for. She's portrayed as sexy because why?? Her shoulders are out?? Her collar bone is visible? Please.
@@juggernaught2115 Again, it is not any element of the way she is dressed that is the sexualization. And the reason why I pointed out the 3 main male characters all being attracted to her isn't because that is the sexualizing either, but because it's clear that *we* are supposed to find her sexy too. It's in how the movie shows her off that is sexualizing. You clearly understand this, since you're able to differentiate between how people treat you. It's the writers and animators treating her character like that.
@RasmusVJS you're specifically supposed to look past her looks. Clearly you can't do that. If we were supposed to see only how beautiful she is then they wouldn't have made her such a deep character. It's not her fault she's beautiful but she's more than that. If you can't see that then that's your flaw. Beautiful women can be smart and kind and brave. Get out of the 1950s. Literally the whole movie is about how were supposed to look past people's outsides. You missed the whole point if all you can see is her beauty.
@@juggernaught2115 I'm not saying she isn't. There's a difference between sexualization and reducing someone to only their looks. Sexualizing is about turning something asexual a character does sexual because their the one doing, depicting a character in a way the audience is intended to find sexy for fanservice purposes, or similar behavior. Like when a piece of media specifically depicts a character in a state of undress because it will appease the male gaze, uses "flattering" camera angles or has a character behave a certain way because it will appease the audience's fantasy. All of these are traps that an intelligent and independent character can run into as well, it's not about me "being unable to see past her looks" or "not seeing the deep characterization". But I guess you really don't want to be critical of the media you consume.
Even though it may be drawing on an over sexualized stereotype, women who are considered “sexy” still deserve respect and autonomy. I’m not sure if that was the movie’s main goal with Esmeralda, but it’s something we can still take away from it.
that was the movie's goal, her to not be objectificated for her look. The other 2 protagonists see her inner values too the villain don't. Esmeralda looks sexy but she also has dignity and a good-heart. She is way more than her appearance, she has a great personality (brave, kind, intelligent and compassionate)and she is the agent of the character development of the protagonist Quasy and her love interest Phoebus.
Who said she didn't deserve respect???????? Why are you so insistent on interpreting genuine and reasonable critique as hate and being part of the problem?
@@imthebossmermaid3648 I'm not 🤨🤨 I think you're misinterpreting my comment. I don't disagree with what the video is saying. Not my area of expertise. My surface level thought from 9 months ago was that bad representation doesn't necessarily make a bad character.
Thanks for pointing out how she's a stereotype. So many people only stop at a portrayal of an ethnic group being outwardly negative without looking into other ways the characters can fall into negative representation. People need to be aware of more sneaky ways of portraying marginalized groups in media.
@@d6421-e9c And? If people still defend the depiction to this day, the "it was a long time ago" excuse doesn't really work. If everyone collectively agreed that it was unfortunate, that would be another situation.
Her being sexual is important to the story (original by Victor Hugo heavily included). Disney had to avoid this to an extent, but it’s important because Frolo is meant to be a perfect priest but he’s failing at resisting his feelings for her. There’s obviously stereotypes that could be harmful, but the issue is that some women are sexual. Some women dance sexually and want to attract men. It becomes a larger debate regarding women’s freedom of sexuality. Many women at the time were in brothels. Many were trying to find rich husbands. It’s not an insult to women, it’s just how it was in 1700s Paris. It’s actually ESPECIALLY how it was in 1700s Paris. If she wasn’t this way, a lot of the power of the story would go away. She’s strong, intelligent, AND sexual. They don’t go against each other. They are all just facts about her that drive the story and her character. It’s also a big factor in why she’s an outcast in the church. The problem isn’t her character or how she’s portrayed, it’s that there aren’t more Romani characters for western audiences to compare her with. The solution to this issue is not to change Esmeralda but to create more Romani characters with different personalities without stereotypical behavior.
This is what gets me about criticizing stereotypes in fiction, because the implication becomes, in this case, that you are just flat out not allowed to make a sexy Romani woman. Add up all the stereotypes of any one demographic and there is almost nothing left you can do to portray a character without falling into a stereotype. So it's no small wonder so many people don't bother trying to add diversity at all.
All due respect your comment doesn't mention a simple thing in western centric societies which is called Fetishization. Women who like being sexual and are claiming it or white women who aren't claiming it but are de facto sexual because they are or were prostituting back in the 1700's.... is nothing alike being a woman with brown skin minding her business but existing in the public space ONLY as a sexy temptress but make it spicy. And being hated or ignored or murdered if you're not hot or sexual. As a non european woman born and raised in Western Europe let me tell you you can be the least sexual person in the world , asexual even, and if someone likes your appearance or find you kinda attractive or even kinda pretty ...they allow themselves ANYTHING, things they would neverallow themselves with a white man, or with a white woman, or with a brown man. No they treat you like you BELONG to them, in the street in the workplace, in familial contexts. Because to society it's your only worth. So it's not just a matter of the quantities or Romani representation, it's actually the intersection of misogyny and white supremacy that makes people treat non white women like they're barely human. Hence fetishization. Esmeralda is fetishized. Learn what it means, talk to people that go through it.
I don't find behaving sexual in public is a virtue that will make me successful as a woman. All I've seen it get women was being treated like pieces of meat even more. You can present yourself with beauty and dignity without presenting yourself sexually in public. Leave it for your husband in the bedroom.
I think people honestly have mixed opinions on how Disney has portrayed marginalized groups in the past. Like yeah it's representation, but it's not always the representation we need
That. That right there exactly. This entire conversation is the conversation we've been holding off on having until now because up until recently, we have had to be grateful we were even ACKNOWLEDGED, let alone represented accurately. The mainstream gave us crumbs and we clamored for them because it was the kindest and truest way we've seen ourselves in our stories made for mass consumption. The conversation is now moving towards "yeah, great, now do it right," as this generation coming up is not willing to settle. The zeitgeist is changing and I'm thrilled to see it.
Yet people forget that many disney stories have set up in the old times when marginalized groups were viewed and treated the exact same way. It’s about you, as a viewer, not to jump to conclusions about marginalized groups and just…. Enjoy the movie
When kids watch disney movies, they don't care about Romani's being represented, people simply don't give a shit, and I don't give a shit either, I'm italian, but I don't care if Super Mario is a stereotipical midget, and I don't care if in Luca, every italian character looks either like someone out of the Soprano's or is so black, he doesn't even look italian
The truth is that you don't need any representation. Asking for representation in media seperates you from everyone who isn't like you. Not getting representation doesn't hurt and you really shouldn't care. I grew up as a Mexican boy in the USA but I never thought of shows or media like "I like this one because he looks like me". This is honestly ridiculous. The only reason representation should be showed is when it has something to do with the story or if it adds flavour to a character, or hell, even if you just want to for the sake of it (as long as it doesn't contradict your fictional world). But it should never come from a place where you only want this character to be this way solely for representation/diversity. Because it generally makes for boring stories and characters when that's all they have going for them
There is actually a trend of most of the non white female disney characters wearing incredibly sexualised clothing that you just don’t see with the white princesses - Pocahontas, Kida, Jasmine, and the most egregious Chel from Road to El Dorado Felt pretty bad growing up. I really hope they do better in the live action
You're right! I loved Atlantis as a child now I realise Kida was so over sexualised, her clothes were so revealing (not shaming a woman for wearing anything they want of course.) It's really weird when you realise Atlantis was meant to be a culture that was similar to Ancient Greece so there was no cultural reason to dress her like that...
El Dorado is a DreamWorks film but you're still right. If a woman of color was a main character she was almost always weirdly sexualized and catered to the male gaze.
@@viktorias63 I don't see why they would. Disney and other production companies have developed characters who were PoC and they weren't fetishized. Tiana, Mulan, every female character in Encanto, Moana, etc.
Pochohantas wears sexualised clothing? Where unless you are refferring to her figure which is just her body shape lmao here clothes are perfectly fine if you ask me. But to me its less the clothing and more the framing sure Jasmine and kida yes but pochontas wore normal clothes
@@CaptainCobblerthing is romanian is not the same as romani. romanian is how you refer to people from the european country of rumania, romani is the name of the ethnic group with indoeuropean origins. they’re not the same descriptor!
@@artetomate I know that Romanian is a real nationality with a homeland but gypsies just go around doing stuff and breaking stuff. Yeah, Romanian sounds better
@@CaptainCobbler pronouncing Romanian is kinda nasal, I don't like it as much as how smooth Romani rolls off the tongue. Also, as the reply above me said, entirely different things.
The word itself even came from the assumption that they came from Egypt, so it’s practically the equivalent of calling a Native American an Indian; it’s technically wrong and obviously not the preferred nomenclature, but it’s definitely not out of place or shocking to hear characters set in a certain time period calling them that.
I'd just like to point out that the "dressing like a caricature" thing is always a bit of a jump. They're not dressing up as a caricature, they're dressing up as ESMERELDA. A character is not the same as a caricature.
@@abithefallenhuman921 Then what would be the proper representation? Or is is wrong because little white girls dressed up as her. I being one of them. I dressed as her because I admired her courage. I never saw her as a stereotype and caricature. If anything, she helped me learn and respect the Romani people. I don't even like the term "gypsy" anymore because of my respect for what I learned through her being a gateway.
@@J3rs3y_G1rlthen you grew up actually wanting to learn about things, which doesn’t happen very often kids nor their parents look up the different ethnic backgrounds of the fabrics.
@@J3rs3y_G1rl The point isn’t that the children being sold this media are at fault the point is that these corporations make money off of harmful Romani stereotypes. If you actually want to actually understand Romani culture then listen when Romani people say that something is wrong.
I scroll through your page often, and all I have to say is....thank you. As a young African American I've always struggled to find where I fit in life. So, while I figure out just where I come from, I find it comforting in a sense to learn about other's cultures. Your content makes my heart flutter as I wait for the day I find where my family is from so I may fully embrace it like you do! Thank you from a black freshman, blessed be
I never really thought of Esmeralda as good Romani representation, just a great character of her own. I’ll admit that I actually like her design, but I understand and respect the criticism.
Guys I will defend my love of Esmeralda to the death but yeah, her design and the traits the creators gave her are problematic and offensive. It's very apparent to me now as an educated adult that the people at Disney (who ironically made the message of this adaptation for Notre Dame to not be judgmental and prejudice of people who are different) had no input from actual Romani people on how to portray these characters and ended up using a lot of stereotypes and showed a complete lack of understanding about what real Romani people are like. I loved her character growing up because her character is beautiful, smart, funny, determined, noble, and kind. Those are great things to take away from the character: especially looking back and remembering there were pretty much no women of color in the spotlight and all the heroines were white and not nearly as interesting to me. But with that appreciation of the good stuff we should also be able to call out and learn from what was done wrong and nobody should be angry that marginalied people are rightfully pissed at how they’re portrayed in media.
Don't read the book (I mean, you can..but). As a young girl (eighth grader) who was an avid reader; I loved how bad ass Esmeralda was. So, I decided to read the book and got slapped with the biggest case of depression, after reading it. She is still an amazing character, but it was a realization that movies are always different from the books.
Speak truth Florian! Love your channel. Keep it up ❤ (my mother was shamed her whole life bc her father was Gxx ROMANI) (ps usa, Pennsylvania, 1930s Travelers would come through once a year)
In the book she wasn’t sexualized at all. By the description she has a firm clothes and also was very shy getting man attention. And she was innocent and virgin. Though she danced great, even women loved it.
I thought the same. She wears French peasant dress, but with Indian stile bright colours and jewelry. Her red dress can be given to her by a noblewoman (red and purple are colours of the nobles) as gift for her dance its looks as an old bal gown. The patterns are time period accurate.
That's....that's the point of her design and the dance, to depict how she and her people were viewed at the time. Her actions and story writting does the opposite, to break the stigma and show that she's more than her stereotype.
I actually think he's thinking too much into it, it was a fully fleshed out story and taught people to not over sexualize her character, I couldn't gauge what he was talking about, like your point is true, the point of it was to break out of the stigma and stereotype
I disagree with him on the usage of the slur (during the time period it was common) but all the other things are good points. You can argue she was sexualized for that reason but that’s not a fair point to make. One of the "good" characters witnesses her dance and has a one-off line about how hot and sexy it is. The fact of the matter is that Disney has this trend of infantilizing white women and fetishizing poc. Look at jasmine, who is 16. Then look at aurora. Look at Pocahontas. Then look at Cinderella. Esmeralda is simply one in a long line of fetishized characters
a characters design and a characters treatment in a piece of media are entirely different things. writing abt a character in a bigoted period of time (which still exists) where a minority was caricatured (and still is) shouldn't lead u to making them a racial caricature to try to portray racism??? also anyone who isnt part of a minority depicted cant say theyre breaking a stigma by subverting stereotypes by writing into stereotypes, bc who do you think invented the stereotypes? ppl not from that minority group. oversexualized stereotypes of romani women lead to irl romani women being harrassed, assaulted, and attacked. also op is literally romani--im sure he knows better what is and isnt harmful to his community hes in everyday
I’d love to see a redesign by a Romani person to see what she would’ve actually looked like without the fetishization Edit: to the people who gave me info saying there was some drawings online- THANK YOU. I found them and they look wonderful To those in the replies saying “the story wouldn’t work” or “being pretty is fetishizing?” You missed the dang point of her entire character- get off 4chan, stop listening to the “alpha males” and touch some grass
The problem could be that Disney wasn’t aware of the origin or connotation to designing her that way, but also they could have totally done some research
Esmeralda isn't Romani representation, Esmeralda is Esmeralda representation. Disney didn't create her for people to look at her and go "Finally, someone who looks like me!". That's a 21st century trend. Back then, it was solely about creating a character to play their role in the story.
Yes. So you agree that she isn't "good Romani representation". You're even arguing that she isn't "Romani representation" at all. You agree with the video.
@@RasmusVJSWell she isn’t even Romani herself, so technically she isn’t good Romani representation because she isn’t Romani herself. In the book, Esmeralda is kidnapped by Romani people, which to me is a stereotype that Roma people are thieves. However, that is how the book is wrote.
@@mothurnikathe book and the film are different. Esmerelda is Romani in the film, Frollo is evil, the Guard captain marries Esmerelda, Quaesy doesn't go to prison and isn't deaf
I kinda thought one of the main themes in the movie was how everyone viewed her as a sex object and she, even for fear of her own life did not submit to frollo, even quasimotto was romantically interested in her. I think it can be important for kids to see that sometimes your feelings won't be reciprocated and how quassimotto reacts with still doing the right thing is how you should, as the hero handle it. The slurs are problematic and were probably not refuted on screen due to ignorance and a lack of care on Disney's part.
Thats the point of the movie. That sensuality was only her on-stage behavior. Off-stage she kept herself for her loved one only. Also, being dancer was common about Romani girls that time period (but there was an older relative to watch her to not happen other stuff bc. they should keep virginity until marriage). The slure wuld be better just to be used by the negative characters to point out with the plot it is wrong to use.
They don’t seem to understand what REAL representation is… like with the new lilo and stich. The colorism is horrendous. For a live action hunchback of Notre Dame, I hope they cast someone like Raisa Mihai. She’d be amazing with aquamarine contact lenses, and her voice is gorgeous
@@kieravermeal9127 -Gargoyles. -Still using the word “gypsy” -Still including “A Guy Like You” -Removing Frollo’s sniffing Esmeralda’s hair -Deleting/changing song lyrics
First of all, she wasn't technically Romani, she was ethnically French and probably not as dark coloring and her real name was Agnès (read the book). Secondly, no French tsigane (sorry for using that word, that was what I was told to use by my French family, and we have married in Romani relatives) would look like that, French Romani tend to look closer to their Eastern European counterparts in Paris (I live near Paris so I do see them) than the ones in Spain. The dancing is different and the music is different. But you're correct, this isn't a good representation of Romani in the 1400s.
But the movie was literally about the ignorant men who sexualized her for being unbound by thier own European culture. There is nothing wrong with depicting history, that's all this movie was doing, that's why they depicted esmarslda as exotic and desirable, and she was the heroine, while the European men were the bad guys because of how they objectified her. There is nothing disrespectful about esmaralda's depiction
Part of Esmeralda's story and why we feel for her is BECAUSE she is sexualized by the people around her.yes it isn't a good stereotype but it's true for alot of women. Not only that but we actively see Esmeralda use that to her advantage as I feel a real woman would. In fact it almost implies she plays into those tropes to fool them. I as a tan woman understand what it's like to be feticized and I find it empowering to see a character like Esmeralda
Only I think what people are talking about now is they want a better world. One where reality is depicted with cultural respect. In the book Esmeralda is 16, so for Disney to make the decision to completely change the character AND sexualize and fetishize her was really inappropriate and a trope of Romani women that needs to end in media. Her being beautiful and confident and loving life would have been enough for an interesting and realistic character.
@@nmg6248 omg it's almost like they have done the same thing to all the Disney princesses and it makes even less sense given the context of their stories. We just need to start representing women better. It isn't just a problem with how they portray romani. Its everything.
@@nmg6248in the real pocahontas story, Amonute was a child at just 10 years old when the white settlers showed up and when she met John. she was 17 or 18 when she married John and he was 29. the story is twisted to fit fantasy. that happens sometimes. in the original Little Mermaid and the original Cinderella and other fairytales there are very dark and disturbing aspects and elements that were erased. in the little Mermaid, every step she takes with her new legs feels like walking on knives, and she can only gain a soul if a human falls in love with her.. which the prince doesn't. he falls for the princess that finds him on the beach after Ariel saves him, and unfortunately, this means she has to die because she couldn't get the prince to fall in love with her before he fell in love with someone else. instead of allowing her sisters to kill him/killing him herself so that she may live, she chooses to die so that he can be happy with his new lover because she loves him. the cinderella story involves one of the wicked stepsisters cutting a toe off and the other a chunk of her heel in an attempt to fit into the glass slipper. I'm certain there are more examples, but these are some good ones. disney changing the story to fit their child audience is pretty common.
There's a difference between a character being in-story sexualized and them being sexualized by the writers/animators, which she arguably was. Either way, her character definitely isn't inherently problematic, but that doesn't make her "good Romani representation" necessarily.
@@mushmush4980Well, is it really better to be invisible then? Esmeralda happens to be brave and smart and tough and good-hearted, and I wonder if anybody can find a better portrayal of a Romani woman in any other movie.
@disappointment3090 Well, it is true that Pocahontas is aged up so she's 18 years old and that she's not kidnapped in the Disney movie. But we can still hear the Englishmen refer to her people as "savages" and "Indians" and "heathens" and "vermin", which all seems accurate for the movie's 17th century setting. "The Princess & The Frog" has actually been criticized for not showing enough of the racism in real life 1920s New Orleans. But there is one scene where some men tell Tiana that a woman with her background shouldn't dream about running her own business, but that's it.
Disney makes background characters ugly idk what to say man.. and esmeralda doesn't have to be seen as someone who was drawn using horrible ideas but you could instead look at it in a better light and see that she is just a pretty young woman who knows how to use her looks to get through life. She is aware that she is strong, beautiful, intelligent, and overall a very good and kind natured person.. I like to think that she shows the good side and shows that Romanian women are all these very kind and loving things and that they are not only elegant and loving but also strong and firm when they are around those they care about
Do Americans forget that Romani are also European? It’s good you’re shedding light on this but holy F why is everyone acting as if western Europe and America all have a homogeneous culture
Im not romani, but i am a woman, it's always been weird to me how for a lot of people is inappropriate for a a woman of any race, nationality or heritage to be portrayed as a sexual being, women can be sexual, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Being sexy or flirty, overly femenine is not exclusionary of being intelligent and worthy of respect. It makes me feel weird to see these videos cuz it sort of feels like on an attempt of being better we're going back to purity culture, i know this video has good intentions, and for sure has some really good points about the portrayal of romani culture, but the overall view seems a little harmful towards women. I loved esmeralda as a kid and i do now, cuz she was strong and independent and beautiful, she taught me from a young age that i don't have to give up my femeninity to be strong.
You may be right, but she is a character from a book/movie (I haven't read the book, so I don't know how she is represented there), with her own idiosincrasy and her own role in the story that needs her to be a certain way for it to work within that story. It's like saying Frollo is a bad representation of Parisians, or not all people with physical disabilities are as naive as Quasimodo. They are characters who should be allowed to be characters. Literature and cinema, and all art, is there to make us think, so the critique is valid if we want to move forward from the XV century mentality, but it doesn't take from her being a specific character who plays a specific role. I'd be more upset about the way the other romani might be represented. They are more charicatures than her, she is a fully rounded character with dreams, values, and personality, and that should be more important than the way she dresses.
The problem is that Romani people are so underrepresented, that she is the only face of how we are seen by many people as opposed to there being millions of faces seen when someone thinks of parisians
@@florida.florian, I hear you, but that's a problem of underrepresentation, not of this movie itself. More movies (especially those for children) should present characters from different ethnicities, and Disney definitely has a history of ignoring those characters, but it's not their fault that Esmeralda is the only romani character that we know about 🤷♀️ I mean, the one romani character we got is pretty awesome, if you ask me, I bet thousands of people around the world wanted to be more like her (she's defo 1000% more interesting than any white princess we've got from them)
While I do agree with your points, I personally love Esmeralda, and I don't think people should cover the sun with their fingers. Some Romani people stole back in the day, so it doesn't mean Esmeralda doing it is portraying a stereotype, just something that used to happen with SOME Romani people, not saying it still happens or that every Romani is a thief. I'm from a different part of the world, where Romani people actually don't mind being called gitanos which translates to gypsy. Either way, I do believe she was overly sexualized, I'll give you that!
@@IsThisUsernameAvailableI'm sorry, but you can very well mind someone being insulting while knowing the stressful fight that would come up when correcting them isn't worth your sanity...
That was the one of the big points of her character, To be sexy. But the difference is its clear that she KNOWS she is good looking as throughout the film she taunts the boys to get away with things. But i think it was also meant to show the type of person quazzimoto wanted to be. He wanted to be brave and strong and handsome like her. Which made it all the more sad for thr audience when she picked the other guy. But she played her part and got quazzimoto to be the man he had wanted to be from the beginning. I loved her.
TBH, I am not a Romani,but I loved Esmeralda for her character. The way I viewed it, she was defying the stereotypes Frollo had about Romani people by being extremely kind, true to herself and defying Frollo, who viewed her as a sexual object and considered Romanis to be criminals and barely even human. As for her being called “gipsy” all through the movie, I thought of it as a way to make Frollo’s prejudice and despise towards Romani people, it made sense to me that the racist and bigoted villain would use slur names to refer to the people he loathed so much, and I perceived it more as a reflection of Frollo’s character than as a disrespect towards Romani characters. However, I am not Romani, so there are things such as the design of the character and her clothes I didn’t really pay much attention to until I watched this video, I did, however,notice the hypersexualization in the dancing scene. Thank you for you content, I’ll subscribe to your channel 😊
Same. NGL I always adored Esmerelda and never got why she wasn’t more popular at the time, considering how much crap she deals with. Really the only problem I wish the movie addressed was Quasimodo and Phoebus constantly calling her a Gypsy, she NEVER corrected Quasimodo that is a bad word and the proper term is Romani. But also, aside the gargoyles’ awful song, there is another bad song in the movie, Court of Miracles. The whole movie is about the Romani being good people deep down who are struggling in a very prejudiced environment, and many have to resort to theft and scamming innocent people to make any money. The song basically admits these negative stereotypes, but NEVER explains why they have to resort to these actions. Doesn’t help the Romani people are basically portrayed as ugly and ratty while Esmerelda is the only Romani character that appears normal and beautiful
You lost me in the end. I loved dressing up like her as a kid. She was a strong woman character I admired. Don’t shame kids for wanting to dress up like their hero’s simply because they’re white kids.
I like that you pointed out you can still like a character and have fond memories of them while acknowledging the bad/harmful representation. Hopefully if we keep talking about the pros and cons, in the future we can see better representation while holding up the good parts.
@@romaroseRoma in the Americas tend to be less identifiable in the mainstream society, as in many ways everyone except for the indigenous peoples came from elsewhere
I think the one thing Esmeralda did “right” was introducing a whole generation to the Romani people in a way. I’m not Romani. I’m just an average white American. But if it wasn’t for her I’d never have known about the Romani people and wanted to learn more. So she’s flawed but was a gateway for many to this beautiful group of people ❤
That's kinda the problem though. The fact that a lot of people will only ever experience Esmerelda when it comes to fictional Romani characters, means that any stereotypes she adheres to will be spread to those people.
it’s not disney, it’s Victor Hugo. In his time, they didn’t know what cancel culture is and didn’t worry about stereotypes. Overall though, Victor Hugo is a very well respected person. He was a strong advocate against the royalists and issues that France was dealing with at that time.
@@abbsbrady7264 you're welcome. here's some more info: she was abducted by romani, who abandoned an actual romani child that was deformed, and took her. i believe the deformed romani baby was quasimodo, but i may be wrong
So, I question the whole over sexualized thing. Like, are we women just not supposed to be sexy at all? 🤔 Because sometimes I feel like people are saying that we women are just supposed to go around wearing large, baggy, shapeless, paper bags over our bodies and have absolutely no sex appeal whatsoever. Personally, as a woman, I‘be always thought that Esmeralda was pretty and not even in overly sexual way. If you look at her outfit, it’s actually quite tame. So, she’s got an off the shoulders top and she’s showing a little cleavage, but otherwise she’s covered up. Hell, Kida from the Atlantis movie is showing a heck of a lot more skin and cleavage than Esmeralda is. 🤷🏽♀️ I just honestly confuse me when I see takes like this. As a woman, I like to feel free to express me and dress myself however I want. Women are the fairer sex and it doesn’t matter what we wear or don’t wear…we‘re going to be sexualized regardless. Men are sexual beings. Women are sexual beings. From a biological standpoint, we’re supposed to be sexually attracted to each other, aren’t we? That’s the sign of being healthy, red-blooded humans, isn’t it? And lastly, it’s not like they made Esmeralda a bad character. I think she’s one of the stronger Disney female characters. She’s strong, fearless, brave, stubborn, outspoken, kind, smart, and has a fiery personality. She’s aware of the injustices in society and she isn’t afraid to call people out like Frollo on his hypocrisy. Now, if she’s was just some clueless bimbo who had no idea about what’s going on in the world around her and if she just tried to use her sex appeal or her dancing skills to get herself out of bad situations, then I could get behind the criticism. Also, he mentioned that the way the other Romani characters are dressed is kinda of racist. So, if that’s the case…then how should they have been dressed? Asking truly out of curiosity.
This is new information to me that I definetely appreciate. While the animators definetely had ill intentions with stereotyping her design, this does unintenionally show more about how she is viewed and fetishized by Frollo and Quasimodo. Every time we see them through their gaze, they see her as something she is not, similar to the caricature in the painting. I love your analyzations of Esmeralda through the white, Westernized, male gaze, and I look forward to more!
I find your videos to be incredibly informative and needed to educate people on the culture of Romani people and destroying the stereotypes that fell upon them for decades. Keep doing what you’re doing!
One of the biggest challenges, I think, about Romani representation in the US, is that a lot of Americans are still completely unaware about Roma being a distinct ethnic group. I've had people literally fight me on this. "It's not racist because g*psies aren't a race!" We don't have the same context Europeans do, so many Americans still think of Roma as a lifestyle or social class and it's really difficult to explain to them how that's untrue.
There are gypsies begging on the streets of my home city. One tried to throw herself in front of my dad while he was driving bc she knew she could sue the fuck out of him if he hit her. Yeah, there are reasons why gypsies are not well respected
It's both things. If you noticed people in the comments quite literally say "romani heritage" talking about someone. So they maybe romani heritage, but they are not gypsies. I have gypsies beggers near my closest subway station. They ARE gypsies. Cos it's a lifestyle oftenly mixed with certain ethnicities. You know, like multiple actually. It's not homogeneous. Stay educated 👍
@@LSG101097 By your logic, we could call anyone who is lazy and unambitious the n-word regardless of their actual race. Many people actually do this and it does not divorce it from its racial connotations. It is clearly meant as a racist analogy. I am actually very personally educated on this because I am part Louisiana Cajun. My ancestors have been called g*psies and white n****rs because they were non-English speaking "poor whites." Racially speaking they were no different from Anglo-Protestant Southerners, but their lifestyle, religion, and language were just different enough to demote their whiteness, and so they were given ethnic slurs accordingly. It's not both. It's one thing and one thing only: racism. Educate yourself, moron.
In medieval France, the term Romani was not yet used, they would have been referred to as "Egyptiens" coming from the misconception they came from Egypt instead of India, maybe "Bohemians" because a king of Bohemia had vouched for the people at some point or "tzigane" in reference to an old eastern christian sect. There was real confusion on where they came from and the french characters of the time would not have used "Rom" a terminology that was really decided upon in the 20th century to set the record straight by referring to the common sanskrit language origin.
I’m lost. Mostly cause I don’t fully know Romani culture. Sorry if it sounds offensive. Well, 1: I only saw clips of the movie but I still managed to enjoy it. 2: I didn’t really see Esmerelda as an exotic dancer, but a person. I feel like the more I make some points of what I think, the more hate I would get from people.
I feel like her character design would be less of a stereotype if the other Romani characters were also not made through racial stereotypes and more realistic, it just hammers in that most of the knowledge of Romani people was kind of through stereotypes and jokes
@@Confetti_Spaghetti im from spain and here we call ourselves that with all pride. Just because someone says that this world is offensive to them, doesn't mean it offends the whole ethnicity. A lot of other Rroma in other countries identifies themselves as gypsies.
At least she is shown as brave, pure-hearted, intelligent, hardworking, kind, well-dressed and neat. All these are the opposites of the negative stereotypes against Romany. 🤗
On the flip side I feel like disney ALWAYS portrays the white princesses/ female protagonists to be modest and demure. Rapunzel? Cinderella? Belle (especially Emma Watson Belle). Says a lot about the writers' perception of women imo.
Someone once pointed out that before Tiana, all of the brown/black girls were scantily clad while the white girls (even the most "free spirited" like Merida) were modestly dressed, with the exception of Ariel. Characters like Es ans Jas were dancing suggestively, while everyone else waltzed.
@erica-5198 exactly. It's this racist perverse notion that all white women/girls exemplify purity and morality while brown girls are exotic and seductive. It's perpetuated by MEN especially white men all over Hollywood and literature.
@@erica-5198There were a few sexualized female leads from Disney in the '90s (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmeralda and Megara). But we don't get that character type from them today whether the girl is white or a POC. Merida is very free-spirited, but she would hardly dress provocatively as she's a tomboy with no interest in being pretty let alone sexy. And she's a princess in Medieval Europe and was hardly expected to dress provocatively anyway. But already with Mulan from "Mulan" and Jane from "Tarzan", Disney decided to move away from the sexy female lead trend. And it's hardly like they have gone back to that trend in the following decades either. Tiana and Elsa and Moana are interested in other things than romance (even if Tiana is able to find a love interest anyway) and wouldn't try to be sexy. Anna and Rapunzel happen to be more bubbly and cute albeit with a tough and proactive side, but they're not the type to be sexually provocative either. It is true that Isabela from "Encanto" is portrayed as the family beauty, who has to do a dance performance at Antonio's ceremony party. However, she is never as sexualized as the girls from the '90s were and is allowed to break away from the "perfect princess" role that her grandmother pushed her into. And I don’t think that anybody can say that Mirabel or Luisa or Dolores is sexually provocative, but they all are POC. And even though I haven't seen "Raya and the last dragon" yet, I think we can all agree that Raya is a warrior princess rather than a sex object...
I recently found out i was part Romani and i do not look like it at all, i am primary multiple shades of white and that washed out the 1/4 and you would never know looking at me, i look Irish. Even so i want to learn more about the culture from actual Romani people. I am Romani by blood only and i fully understand that i am not Romani, i do not look Romani so i will not be discriminated against for it, and i was not raised around Romani culture. I still want to learn more because connecting with ancestors is an important part of my religion. Im happy i found your channel, a clear and honest source on Romani culture and history from a Romani person. You do not know how hard this was to find, and when i stopped looking you popped up in my youtube. Thankyou so much
And the funny thing is, in the books, we’re note even sure if she’s Romani or not. She was raised by her Romani, but like Quasimodo, she was adopted as a baby
I agree with a lot of what you say in fact almost all. However I feel that you often refer to Romani people as just being dark skinned when in fact a lot of us are lighter-skinned. And I would like to point out having lighter skin hasn't ever protected me from the same racism and stereotypes that affect us all.
@@romarose my mother side is Romani everyone thinks they are native American. My father is in Irish traveller in my parents came to America in the 70s. I favor my father but I have red hair and the whitest skin, in spite of my father not being so fair complected and having dark hair also.I am like the unicorn in the family. In elementary school people would say oh we don't like people like you, but I never really understood what that meant until I got to the 4th/5th grade and all the kids would put x's on their hands because they didn't want our "Gypsy germs". The school did nothing. I married an indigenous Mexican and m most assume I'm a white American and my husband is Mexican.
@@romarose In Virginia then West Virginia that's where we where harassed so much. There is a large community Roma in fact there is a town called Gypsy. A lot of families do still maintain the culture and speak the language and a lot don't have the language but still have some of the culture. We were there for maybe six years. From there we moved to Pennsylvania and most didn't even give us a second look. We moved around a lot, and have lived in New Jersey, North Carolina ,South Carolina. I now live in mid West and I haven't been able to find any Travellers or Roma around here so I just keep to my self. I'm older now and miss being around my culture and people who understand. When I was young I wanted to get away and be something other than a "Gypsy" but now that I'm older I understand that I can't be anything else! I have never fit in with regular white people I don't have anything in common I always feel like I'm an alien when I'm in their presence.
@@romarose Wow nice you know the history of your family migration.Most all of our family is in Ireland and some two of my mother's siblings are in Ankara Turkey.
@@romarose The 🌎 is a small place bc we stayed on paint creek for three years near green castle. The school was terrible for us kids. Thanks why we moved on. To be honest those folks on the TV show don't really seem to represent the culture I have grown up in. Girls in skimpy cloths and such.We were raised in long skirts and thought to be modest.
I mean, I get your point, but honestly, a LOT of Disney heroines are overly sexualized depictions of women, especially in the older ones. Not that that makes it any better, but let's just say that normal / average girls of any race or ethnicity are not usually represented well by Disney.
I'm going to gently disagree with you, although perhaps what we really disagree on is the definition of sexualization. Sure, Belle, Cinderella, Ariel, etc. are depicted with exaggerated hourglass figures and are pined after by various men, but to my knowledge, the only leading ladies who are depicted explicitly garnering sexual appeal (in particular, doing a seductive dance, wearing clothing that shows more skin during said dance, etc.) are Jasmine and Esmeralda. Pocahontas also comes to mind (I recall reading that the producers openly stated that they wanted her to be "sexy" while designing her.) I don't think it's a coincidence that these women are POC and that the creators of these movies felt comfortable portraying them this way in kid's movies. I can see how both situations can be considered a form of sexualization, but I feel like the sexuality and "exoticism" of the POC characters is made much more explicit, whereas the other characters are depicted as alluring for a having a sort of...purity? Innocence?
@@dubblebubbletoilandtrouble6646 Hmm, I guess that could just be a difference of personal opinion. Ariel or Meg for example do not just seem like they were made to be "innocent sexy" to me, and this is already disregarding what age they're supposed to be. I think what we can all agree upon is that this whole issue and topic isn't exactly Disneys strong suit either way.
@@dubblebubbletoilandtrouble6646I agree with this. The only ones who aren’t really sexualized from the older batch (pre 2010) would be Mulan and Tiana (they’re still beautiful but not sexual). The Caucasian princesses were definitely more the “ingenue” stereotype of precocious young women, while the 90s princesses of color were more independent/headstrong but also more overtly sexualized. It’s almost like calling independent women sexy but their independence isn’t directly linked to it, it really is tied to the way their cultures are presented (mainly in their dress and dancing).
Also, I’d like to mention that Kida from Atlantis has a pretty sexy design as well and she’s a poc too (or at least presented that way, like a Native American almost)
@@0FynnFish0 The point about Megara is totally fair, I didn't think about her. Ariel is a bit of a grey area for me because though she's wearing what's basically a bikini top, she still acts like a wide-eyed child (she's supposed to be 16) whereas Jasmine (supposed to be 15 lol) is depicted more maturely and more overtly sexualized. But I do agree that Disney has some issues with female representation overall. I just feel like their track record with POC women tends to be on the "openly sexual" spectrum more often. And given that Esmeralda is one of the only mainstream depictions of a Romani woman that a lot of people are familiar with, I can get why it would particularly bother this creator.
Well.. at the same time, the movie doesnt frame her sexuality as bad. just, that its present. Her being beautiful also has narrative reasons. Shes the beauty that hunchback wish he had and lacks. its got narrative importance.
I loved Esmeralda as a child - I thought she was beautiful, strong, with a good heart. I think part of her character design is seen as Frollo sees her - he is extremely sexually seductive - but also as Quasi Modo sees her - bright, loving, ND brave, with a great smile. Also, we have to remember that Disney tends to make all the non-main, romantic characters more cute/interesting/character like, and we're looking at this 30 yrs later. I love your channel ❤ and love how you represent children
Yeahhh when I watched the movie more recently, I realized how sexualized Esmeralda was. It makes you think of all the brown women Disney has sexualized along with her like Jasmine and Pocahontas. It is completely understandable to have mixed feelings about her character. It just shows we need more Romani representation because large companies like Disney can do better.
Absolutely! Especially as Pocahontas (she had other names as well) was like 11 at the time the movie was set. Who came up with the idea of bringing up an 11 year old Native American girl's age just so they could over sexualise her?
As a brown 33y woman from the east who watched this as a kid, it was actually good and different feeling to see a brown smart, beautiful with an independent character and was so full of life
As a bi woman…I never cared about how sexy Esmeralda was. I love how bold, fearless, compassionate and dedicated to justice she is. There’s far more to her character than just “sexy dancer who entices men.”
Like all the characters use the word; I myself only learned a few years back it was a slur for romani people and I like to think the people working on the movie were ignorant to it as well. Not that it justifys the use in the movie's script or that they didn't seem to do any research about the group they decided to represent.
@@pusheenqueen519 My Romani friends refer to themselves as that word. For years I didn’t realize it was a slur. I say Romani now, but it’s all very confusing when people in the same group have different interpretations and opinions.
Hey! A few videos ago you said that it's very important to understand why cultural appropriation is bad/ the difference to appreciation. I'd love to hear more about this since it's a difference I personally don't understand and would love to be educated on. Especially where the line between inspiration/appreciation/appropriation even lies.
This is something you could get a good baseline by looking it up on a search engine. There may not be resources specific to Romani culture that are easily found, but the premise still would work for things like indigenous American cultures and Black culture. Biggest thing to ask is whether something is profiting people from the culture in question, or if all the money winds up in the pockets of the ones using the work of that culture.
GUYS, hold up. Yes she pole dances and is seductive, but are we forgetting she is a performer? Performers play into an already popular fantasy, it gets them money and views. And its really easy to act like a pure, fully dressed, and non exploitative human when your belly is full and there’s a roof over your head. She’s not deaf to the fantasy towards Romani women, as a showwoman she used it to her advantage. The thing is, you can’t have a “wearing pants suit and my personality is my brain” character every time. Sometimes they will be sexy. Sometimes that will get them popular. And sometimes that will bring out loud weirdos who think a cartoon is a reliable reference to believe an entire race are succubi. But pants suit will not prevent sexism or wisen the weirdos, it will just restrict that fiction because you’re afraid of the idea it MIGHT be. The sexism will continue to grow in other ways. Over 20 years of discouraging and shaming the idea of forcing an image onto a a sex/race and Andrew Tate still got as big as he did. Teach people to think for themselves, then no amount of sexy cartoons will matter anymore. Unless thats all you eat, breathe, and watch - then sexy cartoons will brainwash you. But if you are doing that you don’t need to step back, you need to step in to a therapist office for your blatant hentai addiction.
Finding it interesting how the creator only likes comments that support their opinion but doesn’t challenge the critique (i. e. that her tragic fate is the result of people’s lust for her and that the novel as well as the movie are pretty cathartic in showing that all of those mistreating her get their due).
I don't get why u think it's not a good "representation" of romani, it's litteraly the representation of the reality of how romani's were during that time how they lived. that's why victor hugo's writting is well known, he represent the harsh reality in his writing with some beautiful part. because this world is cruel but also beautiful.
Esmaralda being Romani always seemed mostly like window dressing - or an esthetic. The movie goes to great lengths to dive into complex religious questions in Catholicism. Portraying the best and worst of it and genuinely does give a nuanced picture of the role of organized religion. In comparison, we learn absolutely nothing about Romani faith or culture
Well, The movie was made in the 90's. It was a lot harder to get a hold of accurate representation or information, especially about nomadic groups...I was a 90's kid, so I remember the labor it took to even do a report on Scotland in 1995. I didn't even know g**** was a slur until a few months ago. I don't think anything was ill-intended, just unknown.
Weeelllll, in the original book, she actually wasn't born Ramani, she was kidnapped as a baby by a group and raised by them. Her biological mother locked herself in a shed after thinking she lost her baby, even calling Esmeralda names while she danced... The mother finds out that Esmeralda was her really lost daughter. But it was too late and Esmeralda was already being sentenced to death and the mother died from a broken heart...(which, fun fact: Quasimodo failed to save Esmeralda from the fire, and she dies from the smoke)
Would you consider a cosplay of Esmeralda, in her outfit, to be culturally inappropriate or okay? Just trying to better understand since she seems like at least an inspiration to lots.
I mean at that time they didn't use the word Romani (at least where I live the word "roma" which is the hungarian word for Romani was first introduced in in the end of the 20th century. And lot of Romani people here still prefer to be called "cigány" which would translate to gypsy but it is used very differently. (as we know there are depth to words and sometimes a translation of a word will not cover what the word fully means). I grew up in a village where around 60% of people were Romani. I am somewhat Romani, but I don't live in the lifestyle and I don't speak any of the languages anymore, only bits of it, so I don't call myself that.
@@florida.florian I know that in most of the languages it is Romani. Like in the language we - hungarians - call lovári Romani. But there are other Romani languages where they do not refer to themselves as roma or romani at all. Though they are not referred to as "cigány" either in these languages either, that's the word hungarians use for them. Sadly most of the Romanies here lost their culture almost entierly due to being forced to leave the nomadic lifestyle during communism and they actually fell back into a very dark place, which our goverment willfully upholds. (also in communism there was an attempt to completly strip them from their culture) Most of them never makes it trough 8th grade and it is f-cked up because most of the time it is not because they are not academically talented. The schools are almost always systematically racist. I remember copying my Romani classmate's answers in a test and she got a 4 and I got a 5 (5 is best 1 is worst in the hungarian grading system) which was complete bs. That teacher got fired later because she was also beating up students, but I saw this happen a lot and I've rarely seen these teachers facing consequences. I started being vocal about it, than suddenly my grades dropped the down too. I wonder why? :|
That is an *Excellent* way of explaining it! I wish I had known how to voice this as a Mexican immigrant growing up in Canada. "Positive" stereotypes are still reductive and put people in boxes. People are three dimensional and deserve to be treated as such! Thank you for the educational content! I've been learning a lot and I've been un-learning harmful things I had never thought to question. 😊
She's better here than in the book but that's not saying much when the book was literally awful. Not only was it extremely racist against Romani people, everyone was an asshole in it and it just wasn't a good story in my opinion it felt unnecessarily pessimistic
I agree. One thing I have to point out tho is that they sexualize most female Disney characters so it’s not just a Romani thing, it’s a misogynistic thing.
Imagine telling a Roma person they "missed the point" and thinking you as an outsider know better, when they rightfully point out how their own ethnic group is being portrayed
@@lianamariasorainen8086the only problem is Esmeralda’s characterization has nothing to do with her race. Basically every Disney character was like that at the time. This guy is making it about race when it shouldn’t be
What is good Romani representation? I've personally witnessed a lot of violence, sexism, homophobia and disrespect for other peoples property and values, and a sense of entitlement of their own ways over the rights of others. I'm not saying this is everyone, but the Romani people that moved into my community were this way, and very frightening.
Varied, and showing the lived experiences of those people without the bias of the status quo observer. You may have had negative experiences with Romani people, so can anyone have with any group.
@@phily8093 I don't know any Romani people. But it isn't a requirement to know that not all members of an ethnic group are intolerant, since no such ethnic group exists. Anything I could say in regards to potential Romani people I'd known would be purely anecdotal anyways, and wouldn't really prove anything.
I wish her dance wasn't so sexualized. She literally pole dances which is so problematic considering Romani women's history of being over sexualized. I wish they had just had her do a dance from her culture and still shown how Frollo still sexualized her, even though she wasn't actively sexuizing herself. Because it doesnt matter how a woman behaves or dresses. Some men will still sexualize them.
Hoenstly the dance wasn't very sexual at least not to me and pole dancing isn't inherently sexual and there is artistic pole dancing but unfortunately connotations
@@carolinpurayidom4570 yeah but considering the era during which it was released, most people wouldn't even make the difference between pole dancing vs sexual stripper like dancing with a pole.
Most people nowadays fail to see the difference or even acknowledge there is a difference, the second a woman is moving her body then it's inherently sexual. Even if the dance itself has nothing sexual about it. If there's a woman then surely it must be sexual...according to the people who sexualize dancing of all kind.
And again, it was released a few decades ago, people back then already had very harmful stereotypes about women of color or non western European people, so making her design look like this is a very indirect way of saying "oh look! not all of them are bad people, some of them are hot here you go! Some ass cheeks and boobs for you"
And that's problematic. All of the non typically white women in Disney movies are made to be sexual (the woman from the Atlantis movie, the woman from road to el Dorado, pocahontas, even the cat from treasure planet)
While the clothes on their own don't suffice to consider their designs sexual by nature, their mannerisms and personalities are made solely to cater to white men's sexual fantasies of non white women.
Just look at the white women of Disney and how little to no sexual undertones there are when it comes to their designs and mannerisms.
It is horrible considering the historical circumstances...they were all made by white men who probably weren't the best at dismantling their own racial biases.
I'm glad Disney has changed and we got to see Moana for example who is everything that the poc women of Disney should've been: wearing accurate traditional clothes, not being made for white men to drool over.
@@carolinpurayidom4570 i think it was quite sexual, not that there’s anything wrong with that but it’s not right in this case cuz romani woman have been fetishized for ages now
Isnt it already toned down? The book she's sexualized more. But that's the point, all the characters even a good guy Quasimodo, sexualized and fantasized about her. They are all terrible people.
Ooh. That was brilliant especially the last part. Having male characters getting the hots for Esmeralda is a vital part of the story. It would be hard to adapt the story without putting that in to some extent. Yet you have a good solution. Esmeralda can be modest from an objective standpoint. However the guys can still have the hots for her, so the story can still work. The most modest women I have seen are nuns and Muslim women. They dress up modestly in robes and veils. This is done for religious reasons. It makes sense. Covering up the body prevents distractions. So people can focus on religion instead of carnal pleasure. Witches work the same way. They are religious too, even if their religion is very different. They got their robe and hat. Again this reduces distraction. Yet in spite of this there is still sexualization. I have seen sexy costumes for witch, nun and Muslim woman. It is so bizarre. That is missing the point. I guess men are too horny, even when women are trying to as modest as humanely possible.
I guess a male version would be Beatles. These guys are modest. They often wear suits. If not they usually wear some combo of pants and long sleeved shorts. The Beatles music is very clean too. There is a lot about love, but it is a clean wholesome love. Despite the clean image, lot of fan girls still got the hots for the Beatles anyway. They went nuts. I used to have a crush on all the band members. I especially liked John Lennon. I can tell that these guys don't need to show off their bodies in order to be sexy. So any attractive person can be deemed sexy no matter how modest they are.
I met a woman who has Romani roots. She also grew up as a cirque performer. The disgusting things she was told by men, young and old, all who felt entitled to her as something exotic for them to desire, and it started when she was not yet 10.
@@romarose back there they didn't care, Everything was allowed until no one found out and it didn't bring shame to the girl's family
What men?
wth
To be fair, that's a lot of women's experience, no matter their culture or race. They just have to be somewhat attractive to get unwarranted and unwanted attention from men. I got harrassed by older men while in my school uniform, and I wasn't even very attractive or physically "mature looking". Girls in school who had larger breasts or were attractive got way worse from old men.
@@jelatinosa Right. It's a treatment of women thing, not a treatment of Romani women thing (IMO)
You make a lot of valid points. Myself included, Esmeralda provided a lot of tan/ brown skinned girls confidence in their beauty growing up. There should be an improvement in respectful and accurate Romani representation, but I can’t help but love the Disney Esmeralda. Thank you for a wonderful channel that educates on Romani culture, because we’ve learned so much! Always looking forward to your content 🥰
I can certainly understand why any racial stereotypes are harmful. But I have to say I always thought Esmeralda was so cool and beautiful when I was a little girl. I am white as can be, and I always envied her beautiful hair and skin and loved how unique she was from the other princess characters. One of my best friends was Romani (she was adopted) and we loved that she had a “princess” that looked like her. I never really knew until recently that Esmeralda’s portrayal was problematic, so I appreciate hearing new perspectives!
@@Sarah-ic4yu I respected her as a kid, because I saw how kind she was to Quasimodo, and how selfless she was in "children of God" where she would rather help her people than herself. I feel sad to know that she's a bit problematic too, but hearing other cultural perspectives is very important, and the best thing we can do is to continue learning and improving
@@charityquill4965 yes I felt the same way! Very well put!
@@saraperpetua1093shes not even dark tbh
It was maybe the princess that I felt was the closest to me ❤
The thing is, the plot of the movie does not work without Esmeralda being outstandingly beautiful
That means she serves her narrative purpose. Not that she's "good Romani representation", which is what he was arguing.
She can be beautiful without also being sexualized. She can be beautiful with actual traditional clothing. She can be beautiful while not also falling into the stereotype of Romani women being into inappropriate work. Her not being sexualized doesn't mean changing her appearance (op even compliments the appearance they gave her and only criticizes the fact that she is the only Romani character that isn't drawn as a full steryotype) , it means changing the inaccurate parts about her that are a result of people who mischaracterized her culture for their own pleasure or gain or just to demonize them in general.
@@aceaster2657 True!!! The point of the movie is that Frollo's sexualization is wrong and that she deserves to be seen as a human with worth, kindness, and dignity, not as a sex object for Frollo to fetishize. And that's one thing that I find commendable about her character's writing. But they could have done that without making her sexualized, which would better drive home the fact that it's Frollo choosing to see her in a sexualized way, and that it's not how she actually is.
@@imthebossmermaid3648 i'm not familiar with the original victor hugo novel but I am with the musical rendition of it, so at least i have something to compare it with the disney movie. In the musical, everyone that's a main character behaves like a massive simp towards her, as they are very obviously drawn by her beauty, wich is seen as wild and animalesque, while quasimodo is the only one that notices her generous and kind nature, comforting her in all of her tribulations. She is treated as nothing more but an object of desire that gets constantly abused, both verbally and phisically, gets tortured to death twice because of whichcraft allegations, and her brutal death only worsen the situation, as frollo's disgusting intentions won her ower. Disney did an amazing job with portraying her as an actual character with an identity, her beauty is an important narrative element, but you can still immediately see how much depth and greatness she's about to deliver.
@@trippy_dragon8726 I totally agree! I think we can acknowledge the flaws in her portrayal while still commending her for being an amazing heroine with actual agency! And yeah it is sad how fetishized and dehumanized she was within the narrative and cast for being a beautiful Romani woman.
Wasn’t that the point? Her character’s existence is to oust Frollo as a hypocrite. He hates heathens and gypsies. Yet has fallen in “love” (cough cough *lust) for this beautiful woman practicing “witch craft”.
Your complaints are absolutely valid and I’m in no position to speak on Romani culture. But I believe that over-sexualization was intentional to sell the idea of Frollo committing a sin by lusting.
God be watching like "dude wtf?"
I don't think he is arguing that she shouldn't have been. Just that because she is, she isn't really an example of "good Romani representation". Also, whilst it might have been intentional because you were writing about Frodo, using that word to describe Romani people isn't great.
They could have done it without making her sexualized and feeding into those ideas themselves.
It honestly strikes me as one of those things that was done without realizing the ramifications. Not to say you couldn't have had a character like this at all just if indeed a Romani person wrote the movie it would have been in a less stereotypical manner.
@@TECH097 Yes. This part is what people need to be reading and understanding. 🙌🏿
As a Romani, I love Esmeralda the way she is. She's my fav Disney woman.
She's by far the most beautiful 😍
Same! Me looking for her in the Once upon a studio special and when I eventually did I was so gleeful 😊
Which movie is she from?
@@Puff_Clo6d the hunchback of notre dame
I like Megara (Disney's Hercules) too as a Greek woman myself.Yes the Hercules movie has stereotypes for the Greeks, but I don't find them offensive at all, in fact I think every coulture's stereotypes are in a way what makes every country unique and beautiful, if you get what I mean... Nothing to be ashamed of.
I also like Esmeralda as well😊❤
This is just my perspective on this, growing up Esmeralda was the only Romani representation I had and for that she will always be special to me but it’s important to call inaccuracies and stereotypes out and hope that next time if they ever do a live action they will consult actual Romani people and do our culture justice.
Why did Romani people migrate to Europe anyways?
@@carina-nonbinary A question I want to know the answer to. All people have a reason to go somewhere.
@Bored. Very bored. Why do you expect him to do every ounce of research for you? Are you incapable of seeing how rude it is to ask him to explain every bit of his cultural heritage when he 1. Has made several videos explaining the reasons the romani have moved around and 2. When you are entirely capable of looking it up yourself and educating yourself. When you rely on a marginalized group to "explain" or "rationalize" their entire historical presences you are essentially telling them they must justify their existence in Europe or anywhere in the world to you, and that you don't think it's important enough to research yourself so they must do it for you. It's a childish and useless question you could've 1. Watch the wonde4ful plethora of videos he has already posted explaining this or 2. Done even the slightest bit of research for *shock horror* yourself.
@@Apathy.Apathy. Romani migrated all over, not just Europe. There were many reasons, from slavery, fleeing persecution and death, trying to find work and safety and all the reasons anyone may immigrate. Though nowhere really offers/ed asylum.
They still aren't really allowed to "settle" anywhere. Romani weren't nomadic by choice.
@@Apathy.Apathy. they most likely left because of afghan general Muhammad invading India media.nationalgeographic.org/assets/file/romani_MIG.pdf
Like I always knew Esmerelda wasn’t good representation and then I read the Victor Hugo novel and I straight up wanted to die. She’s not even Romani she was kidnapped as a baby and that’s why she’s not ugly according to Hugo. The harmful stereotypes are everywhere and the creepy depictions, like he compares her to her pet goat. And how he describes her in comparison to Frollo is so weird. He’s like “La Esmerelda has nice arms, and she pouts a lot I guess.” and then for Frollo he’s like “Frollo was 35 but looked old, in the most dignified way. Also here’s a whole page about his education and career.”. The book is so bad when it comes to Esmerelda.
esmeralda was not a deep character in the book, but that was partially because of her actually being not so deep i think. she was portrayed as a naive 16 year old who just wanted to sing, dance and live her life, not an educated adult who’s all philosophy and science. and i think that’s pretty realistic and there’s nothing wrong with that. but i agree yes it’s a shame we don’t really get to see her insight and thoughts. we even learn about her childhood from an another character, not from the writer himself. also i didn’t get what you mean by “in the most dignified way” like i remember hugo always depicted him as kind of an abominable looking man.
and also, there were many descriptions made for her looks both from the author and other characters
What or who is your favourite Romani representation?
@@romarose she wasn’t alone i think she was well-protected around her community. hugo even said they had a respect for the girl like virgin mary. but what did hugo know about romani people anyway? but yeah the book esmeralda didn’t really have parents either
I also read the novel and I honestly find your analysis of her character, and evaluation of his kind of underwhelming. First of all, she’s not a “complex” character because she represents an idea/state of being-goodness. She’s a compassionate, loving and genuine soul especially for her time, but is left rather blank because that’s what the novel needs to continue its idea. Frollo on the other hand was set out to be an intellectual and a philosophical figure in of himself, but was also portrayed as extremely flawed and what’s wrong with having those qualities as your only defining characteristic (intelligence) I mean, dude, in the end he’s literally killed by his adopted son cause he was such an absolute dick.
@@messiahofthefirst.3415 exactly and even if she wasn’t meant to portray anything, she still doesn’t need to be “complex” -in terms of education and matureness- she’s a shallow teenager and that’s valid and realistic. we are not meant to look up to her we are meant to feel sorry for her or want to protect her ig
Okay, wild guess here: the movie is through the lenses of 3 men. This is why she's portrayed as this way. She is the desirable woman for them. I'm more than sure she was like this to make audience understand why those 3 men were so into her
Which is fine. But that doesn't mean that she's "good Romani representation", which is what he's arguing, just that she serves the narrative.
Isn't that literally the male gaze? 🤢 Let's not do that anymore.
And your point is? Explain how that makes it excusable. You're not making things any better.
@@imthebossmermaid3648 reread their comment. Plenty of media puts you through the lenses of the shitty people. It doesn't mean it's okay, which goes back to the video. It's not good rep for the fact it's through the lenses of shitty ppl.
@@RasmusVJSI mean that's what fictional characters are supposed to do, drive the narrative, especially supporting characters. The protagonist? Sure, but Esmeralda is more or less a plot device to drive the protagonist and antagonist's motivations
"She is called slurs all throughout the movie"
Ehm... Yeah, this movie takes place in a specific place at a specific time, and it just so happens that back then the word "Romani" wasn't used.
In this specific case also consider that she does need to be an outcast in order for her character to work.
I think it's so very important for non-Romani/Middle Eastern people who grew up with movies like this and Aladdin (myself included) to realize that you can still appreciate the positive memories you have with these movies, while also being mature enough to recognize their very real and present flaws. Nothing will ever change if we just say, "But it's nostalgic for me, so it's fine."
Yeah indeed i think aladdin was well animated and had some fun jokes and songs.
But that doesn't excuse that many characters in the movie are stereotypes thrown together with a stereotypical accent while the main character is voiced by an american sounding white guy
Not clouded by nostalgia. These “flaws” just aren’t valid
@@rosykindbunny1313no one said you can't enjoy the nostalgia, but continuing to ignore the glaring stereotypes in movies because they were "products of their time" does not excuse it.
@@crow1247 I apologize, I did not mean to come off that way. I deleted my comment because I didn't really know how to phrase what I meant.
@@rosykindbunny1313 ayye it's alr. Just watch what u say before u post. Have a good day/night 💚
I'm an opera singer and I would really love for you to do an exploration of the character Carmen in the Bizet opera of the same name. I can definitely see elements of over sexualised fetishism of Romani women along with harmful stereotypes and attitudes in general throughout the opera, and I would really love to hear your thoughts on it. Also, just wanted to say I love this channel! I'm learning so much and it is doing so much good for the world. ❤
Carmen is guilty of misrepresenting both Roma people (wich I am not) and Spanish people (wich I am). The music is wonderful, but the protagonist... not so much.
@@morganlefay195 thank you so much for your input. That's really interesting. ❤️
@@morganlefay195 you know, I always did wonder why Carmen was soo sexualized and described as a sexual wanderer. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Not only is it misrepresenting two peoples, it's also really damn sexist.
I've read the book and found it boring af. However, I remember the Romanis being characterized very very badly
I thought the whole point was learning to not sexualize her. Frollos whole thing was that he was desperately lustful for her and he shouldn't have been. I thought the themes of not objectifying women were very impactful and grown up for a Disney movie.
Same thoughts here! The point was to make her beautiful! It defeats the purpose if she looked like everyone else. I also don’t think that she dresses too sexually either. The only sexual thing I see that’s her own is cleavage.
Especially when comparing Phoebus and Quasi to Frollo.
Frollo just objectified her and lusted after her. Quasi saw her as an angelic, beautiful savior. Phoebus was attracted to her sex appeal, but fell for her attitude and bravery.
Yes I agree! This is one of the few films that Disney quite elegantly portrayed an otherwise undignified story from the book.
Also, she's a foil to Frollo, she's free-spirited and fun, while Frollo is close minded and serious, I'm pretty sure there's more, but I haven't seen the movie in years
@@Josue-mv2fo there's alot more to the movie. one of its main themes is the Romani people being cast out and marginalized, and esmerelda trying to find safety and comfort for her people, no matter if she has to sacrifice herself. i think, specifically in the song Children of God, the writers touch on a little bit of the nihilism that marginalized people feel, and how some of us feel this because of how unfairly were treated.
She did sing the best song to ever come from a disney movie.
There's a better song in the same movie
This soundtrack was amazing
God Help the Outcasts is such an underrated and beautiful Disney song, I never here anyone talk about it 😭
I dont think esmeralda was over sexualized. Some women are just sexy in their nature. She doesn't wear revealing clothing or anything but as women who have curves no matter what we wear people think we're over sexualized.
Being sexualized isn't about how they look, but how they are portrayed. And taking into account that three different important male characters were completely enamored by her, and looking at how she was animated, I don't think it can really be argued that she wasn't sexualized.
@RasmusVJS men being attracted to you is not being sexualized. What frolo did was sexualing her but everyone knew he was being evil. curvy women are always seen as sexual beings whether we want it or not. I can't wear a v neck without people thinking I'm a slut. She was a fearless leader. She was smart and kind and those are the qualities that Quasimodo and pheobus fell for. She's portrayed as sexy because why?? Her shoulders are out?? Her collar bone is visible? Please.
@@juggernaught2115 Again, it is not any element of the way she is dressed that is the sexualization. And the reason why I pointed out the 3 main male characters all being attracted to her isn't because that is the sexualizing either, but because it's clear that *we* are supposed to find her sexy too. It's in how the movie shows her off that is sexualizing. You clearly understand this, since you're able to differentiate between how people treat you. It's the writers and animators treating her character like that.
@RasmusVJS you're specifically supposed to look past her looks. Clearly you can't do that. If we were supposed to see only how beautiful she is then they wouldn't have made her such a deep character. It's not her fault she's beautiful but she's more than that. If you can't see that then that's your flaw. Beautiful women can be smart and kind and brave. Get out of the 1950s. Literally the whole movie is about how were supposed to look past people's outsides. You missed the whole point if all you can see is her beauty.
@@juggernaught2115 I'm not saying she isn't. There's a difference between sexualization and reducing someone to only their looks. Sexualizing is about turning something asexual a character does sexual because their the one doing, depicting a character in a way the audience is intended to find sexy for fanservice purposes, or similar behavior. Like when a piece of media specifically depicts a character in a state of undress because it will appease the male gaze, uses "flattering" camera angles or has a character behave a certain way because it will appease the audience's fantasy. All of these are traps that an intelligent and independent character can run into as well, it's not about me "being unable to see past her looks" or "not seeing the deep characterization". But I guess you really don't want to be critical of the media you consume.
Even though it may be drawing on an over sexualized stereotype, women who are considered “sexy” still deserve respect and autonomy. I’m not sure if that was the movie’s main goal with Esmeralda, but it’s something we can still take away from it.
that was the movie's goal, her to not be objectificated for her look. The other 2 protagonists see her inner values too the villain don't. Esmeralda looks sexy but she also has dignity and a good-heart. She is way more than her appearance, she has a great personality (brave, kind, intelligent and compassionate)and she is the agent of the character development of the protagonist Quasy and her love interest Phoebus.
Yes. That doesn't mean that she's gonna be good Romani representation, which the video is about. She can still be a good character.
Who said she didn't deserve respect???????? Why are you so insistent on interpreting genuine and reasonable critique as hate and being part of the problem?
@@imthebossmermaid3648 I'm not 🤨🤨 I think you're misinterpreting my comment. I don't disagree with what the video is saying. Not my area of expertise. My surface level thought from 9 months ago was that bad representation doesn't necessarily make a bad character.
@imthebossmermaid3648 its bs critiq
Thanks for pointing out how she's a stereotype. So many people only stop at a portrayal of an ethnic group being outwardly negative without looking into other ways the characters can fall into negative representation. People need to be aware of more sneaky ways of portraying marginalized groups in media.
This movie was probably a long time ago so of course they would put in stereotypes, duh
@@d6421-e9c And? If people still defend the depiction to this day, the "it was a long time ago" excuse doesn't really work. If everyone collectively agreed that it was unfortunate, that would be another situation.
@@RasmusVJSjust stop
Her being sexual is important to the story (original by Victor Hugo heavily included). Disney had to avoid this to an extent, but it’s important because Frolo is meant to be a perfect priest but he’s failing at resisting his feelings for her.
There’s obviously stereotypes that could be harmful, but the issue is that some women are sexual. Some women dance sexually and want to attract men. It becomes a larger debate regarding women’s freedom of sexuality. Many women at the time were in brothels. Many were trying to find rich husbands. It’s not an insult to women, it’s just how it was in 1700s Paris. It’s actually ESPECIALLY how it was in 1700s Paris.
If she wasn’t this way, a lot of the power of the story would go away. She’s strong, intelligent, AND sexual. They don’t go against each other. They are all just facts about her that drive the story and her character. It’s also a big factor in why she’s an outcast in the church.
The problem isn’t her character or how she’s portrayed, it’s that there aren’t more Romani characters for western audiences to compare her with. The solution to this issue is not to change Esmeralda but to create more Romani characters with different personalities without stereotypical behavior.
This is what gets me about criticizing stereotypes in fiction, because the implication becomes, in this case, that you are just flat out not allowed to make a sexy Romani woman. Add up all the stereotypes of any one demographic and there is almost nothing left you can do to portray a character without falling into a stereotype. So it's no small wonder so many people don't bother trying to add diversity at all.
All due respect your comment doesn't mention a simple thing in western centric societies which is called Fetishization.
Women who like being sexual and are claiming it or white women who aren't claiming it but are de facto sexual because they are or were prostituting back in the 1700's.... is nothing alike being a woman with brown skin minding her business but existing in the public space ONLY as a sexy temptress but make it spicy. And being hated or ignored or murdered if you're not hot or sexual.
As a non european woman born and raised in Western Europe let me tell you you can be the least sexual person in the world , asexual even, and if someone likes your appearance or find you kinda attractive or even kinda pretty ...they allow themselves ANYTHING, things they would neverallow themselves with a white man, or with a white woman, or with a brown man. No they treat you like you BELONG to them, in the street in the workplace, in familial contexts. Because to society it's your only worth. So it's not just a matter of the quantities or Romani representation, it's actually the intersection of misogyny and white supremacy that makes people treat non white women like they're barely human.
Hence fetishization. Esmeralda is fetishized. Learn what it means, talk to people that go through it.
Notre Dame de Paris is set in the Middle Ages not the 17th c. 🙄
@@MrLaulaulaulau Lol yeah, I was reading that, and I'm like, wait, didn't the first page say it was set in 1482?
I don't find behaving sexual in public is a virtue that will make me successful as a woman. All I've seen it get women was being treated like pieces of meat even more. You can present yourself with beauty and dignity without presenting yourself sexually in public. Leave it for your husband in the bedroom.
According to the original book, Esmeralda was French who was kidnapped by Romani people.
You're right, she was dressed like a Romanian, almost as if she was Romanian. She should have dressed as a Japanese samurai.
I didn't even put together Romani and Romanian.
She was not romanian
@@justice_of_UA-camshe was in the movie just not the book
@@staryumenokyusaku she wasn't romanian in the movie either. Get educated on races
@@justice_of_UA-cam she literally was though??🌚
I think people honestly have mixed opinions on how Disney has portrayed marginalized groups in the past. Like yeah it's representation, but it's not always the representation we need
That. That right there exactly. This entire conversation is the conversation we've been holding off on having until now because up until recently, we have had to be grateful we were even ACKNOWLEDGED, let alone represented accurately. The mainstream gave us crumbs and we clamored for them because it was the kindest and truest way we've seen ourselves in our stories made for mass consumption. The conversation is now moving towards "yeah, great, now do it right," as this generation coming up is not willing to settle. The zeitgeist is changing and I'm thrilled to see it.
Yet people forget that many disney stories have set up in the old times when marginalized groups were viewed and treated the exact same way.
It’s about you, as a viewer, not to jump to conclusions about marginalized groups and just…. Enjoy the movie
When kids watch disney movies, they don't care about Romani's being represented, people simply don't give a shit, and I don't give a shit either, I'm italian, but I don't care if Super Mario is a stereotipical midget, and I don't care if in Luca, every italian character looks either like someone out of the Soprano's or is so black, he doesn't even look italian
Present too.
The truth is that you don't need any representation. Asking for representation in media seperates you from everyone who isn't like you. Not getting representation doesn't hurt and you really shouldn't care. I grew up as a Mexican boy in the USA but I never thought of shows or media like "I like this one because he looks like me". This is honestly ridiculous. The only reason representation should be showed is when it has something to do with the story or if it adds flavour to a character, or hell, even if you just want to for the sake of it (as long as it doesn't contradict your fictional world). But it should never come from a place where you only want this character to be this way solely for representation/diversity. Because it generally makes for boring stories and characters when that's all they have going for them
There is actually a trend of most of the non white female disney characters wearing incredibly sexualised clothing that you just don’t see with the white princesses - Pocahontas, Kida, Jasmine, and the most egregious Chel from Road to El Dorado
Felt pretty bad growing up. I really hope they do better in the live action
You're right! I loved Atlantis as a child now I realise Kida was so over sexualised, her clothes were so revealing (not shaming a woman for wearing anything they want of course.) It's really weird when you realise Atlantis was meant to be a culture that was similar to Ancient Greece so there was no cultural reason to dress her like that...
El Dorado is a DreamWorks film but you're still right. If a woman of color was a main character she was almost always weirdly sexualized and catered to the male gaze.
@@pusheenqueen519 and of she's not wearing something sexy, then somsone else eill complain about that
@@viktorias63 I don't see why they would. Disney and other production companies have developed characters who were PoC and they weren't fetishized. Tiana, Mulan, every female character in Encanto, Moana, etc.
Pochohantas wears sexualised clothing? Where unless you are refferring to her figure which is just her body shape lmao here clothes are perfectly fine if you ask me. But to me its less the clothing and more the framing sure Jasmine and kida yes but pochontas wore normal clothes
Offtopic, but i love the word Romani. Like, just the pronunciation is so satisfying to me, and the way it's written? Just yes
Romanian is better. Romani just sounds confusing as to if you should pronounce it as romarni or ro mani, but Romanian is where it’s at.
@@CaptainCobblerthing is romanian is not the same as romani. romanian is how you refer to people from the european country of rumania, romani is the name of the ethnic group with indoeuropean origins. they’re not the same descriptor!
@@artetomate I know that Romanian is a real nationality with a homeland but gypsies just go around doing stuff and breaking stuff. Yeah, Romanian sounds better
@@CaptainCobbler pronouncing Romanian is kinda nasal, I don't like it as much as how smooth Romani rolls off the tongue.
Also, as the reply above me said, entirely different things.
She gets called gypsy cuz that's the word people in that time period and most people today used/use
The word itself even came from the assumption that they came from Egypt, so it’s practically the equivalent of calling a Native American an Indian; it’s technically wrong and obviously not the preferred nomenclature, but it’s definitely not out of place or shocking to hear characters set in a certain time period calling them that.
@@therealCrazyJakestop yapping
I'd just like to point out that the "dressing like a caricature" thing is always a bit of a jump. They're not dressing up as a caricature, they're dressing up as ESMERELDA. A character is not the same as a caricature.
The character is fiction, she was designed to look like a Romani caricature
@@abithefallenhuman921 Then what would be the proper representation? Or is is wrong because little white girls dressed up as her. I being one of them. I dressed as her because I admired her courage. I never saw her as a stereotype and caricature. If anything, she helped me learn and respect the Romani people. I don't even like the term "gypsy" anymore because of my respect for what I learned through her being a gateway.
Did you watch the video? Esmerlda IS a caricature of Romani women.
@@J3rs3y_G1rlthen you grew up actually wanting to learn about things, which doesn’t happen very often kids nor their parents look up the different ethnic backgrounds of the fabrics.
@@J3rs3y_G1rl The point isn’t that the children being sold this media are at fault the point is that these corporations make money off of harmful Romani stereotypes. If you actually want to actually understand Romani culture then listen when Romani people say that something is wrong.
I scroll through your page often, and all I have to say is....thank you. As a young African American I've always struggled to find where I fit in life. So, while I figure out just where I come from, I find it comforting in a sense to learn about other's cultures. Your content makes my heart flutter as I wait for the day I find where my family is from so I may fully embrace it like you do! Thank you from a black freshman, blessed be
I never really thought of Esmeralda as good Romani representation, just a great character of her own.
I’ll admit that I actually like her design, but I understand and respect the criticism.
Exactly. Her not being good Romani representation doesn't mean that she's a terrible character, as long as people are willing to acknowledge this.
Guys I will defend my love of Esmeralda to the death but yeah, her design and the traits the creators gave her are problematic and offensive. It's very apparent to me now as an educated adult that the people at Disney (who ironically made the message of this adaptation for Notre Dame to not be judgmental and prejudice of people who are different) had no input from actual Romani people on how to portray these characters and ended up using a lot of stereotypes and showed a complete lack of understanding about what real Romani people are like.
I loved her character growing up because her character is beautiful, smart, funny, determined, noble, and kind. Those are great things to take away from the character: especially looking back and remembering there were pretty much no women of color in the spotlight and all the heroines were white and not nearly as interesting to me. But with that appreciation of the good stuff we should also be able to call out and learn from what was done wrong and nobody should be angry that marginalied people are rightfully pissed at how they’re portrayed in media.
You took the words right out of my thoughts!
Don't read the book (I mean, you can..but). As a young girl (eighth grader) who was an avid reader; I loved how bad ass Esmeralda was. So, I decided to read the book and got slapped with the biggest case of depression, after reading it. She is still an amazing character, but it was a realization that movies are always different from the books.
Speak truth Florian! Love your channel. Keep it up ❤ (my mother was shamed her whole life bc her father was Gxx ROMANI) (ps usa, Pennsylvania, 1930s Travelers would come through once a year)
thank you!
Esmeralda was a performer, ofcourse she'd dress to meet the expectations, that's her job.
In the book she wasn’t sexualized at all. By the description she has a firm clothes and also was very shy getting man attention. And she was innocent and virgin. Though she danced great, even women loved it.
I think her clothes is a mixture of medieval style and her traditional style. Since they are nomads keeping up and adapting to new places makes sense.
I thought the same. She wears French peasant dress, but with Indian stile bright colours and jewelry. Her red dress can be given to her by a noblewoman (red and purple are colours of the nobles) as gift for her dance its looks as an old bal gown. The patterns are time period accurate.
That's....that's the point of her design and the dance, to depict how she and her people were viewed at the time. Her actions and story writting does the opposite, to break the stigma and show that she's more than her stereotype.
I actually think he's thinking too much into it, it was a fully fleshed out story and taught people to not over sexualize her character, I couldn't gauge what he was talking about, like your point is true, the point of it was to break out of the stigma and stereotype
I disagree with him on the usage of the slur (during the time period it was common) but all the other things are good points. You can argue she was sexualized for that reason but that’s not a fair point to make. One of the "good" characters witnesses her dance and has a one-off line about how hot and sexy it is. The fact of the matter is that Disney has this trend of infantilizing white women and fetishizing poc. Look at jasmine, who is 16. Then look at aurora. Look at Pocahontas. Then look at Cinderella. Esmeralda is simply one in a long line of fetishized characters
a characters design and a characters treatment in a piece of media are entirely different things. writing abt a character in a bigoted period of time (which still exists) where a minority was caricatured (and still is) shouldn't lead u to making them a racial caricature to try to portray racism??? also anyone who isnt part of a minority depicted cant say theyre breaking a stigma by subverting stereotypes by writing into stereotypes, bc who do you think invented the stereotypes? ppl not from that minority group. oversexualized stereotypes of romani women lead to irl romani women being harrassed, assaulted, and attacked. also op is literally romani--im sure he knows better what is and isnt harmful to his community hes in everyday
@@alicechase9290I don't even know why he's bitching about a character that doesn't even exist
@@d6421-e9cAnd how it affects his daily life so much, I hate this guy, I just check the comments to see if anybody has come to their senses.
I’d love to see a redesign by a Romani person to see what she would’ve actually looked like without the fetishization
Edit: to the people who gave me info saying there was some drawings online- THANK YOU. I found them and they look wonderful
To those in the replies saying “the story wouldn’t work” or “being pretty is fetishizing?” You missed the dang point of her entire character- get off 4chan, stop listening to the “alpha males” and touch some grass
I hope someone will!
@@LadyDragonbane cross our fingers!!
there are a lot of drawings with her wearing a historically accurate sari actually!
There is a pretty great historical drawing of her
There's some pretty good art floating the internet of what a historically accurate Romani, Esmeralda would look like.
The problem could be that Disney wasn’t aware of the origin or connotation to designing her that way, but also they could have totally done some research
Esmeralda isn't Romani representation, Esmeralda is Esmeralda representation. Disney didn't create her for people to look at her and go "Finally, someone who looks like me!". That's a 21st century trend.
Back then, it was solely about creating a character to play their role in the story.
Yes. So you agree that she isn't "good Romani representation". You're even arguing that she isn't "Romani representation" at all. You agree with the video.
@@RasmusVJSWell she isn’t even Romani herself, so technically she isn’t good Romani representation because she isn’t Romani herself. In the book, Esmeralda is kidnapped by Romani people, which to me is a stereotype that Roma people are thieves. However, that is how the book is wrote.
However, Esmeralda did integrate into Romani culture, so she also has principles of Romani culture.
@@mothurnika We're not talking about the book, Nika! We're talking about the movie! Talk about the movie! Please don't move the goalposts!
@@mothurnikathe book and the film are different. Esmerelda is Romani in the film, Frollo is evil, the Guard captain marries Esmerelda, Quaesy doesn't go to prison and isn't deaf
I kinda thought one of the main themes in the movie was how everyone viewed her as a sex object and she, even for fear of her own life did not submit to frollo, even quasimotto was romantically interested in her. I think it can be important for kids to see that sometimes your feelings won't be reciprocated and how quassimotto reacts with still doing the right thing is how you should, as the hero handle it. The slurs are problematic and were probably not refuted on screen due to ignorance and a lack of care on Disney's part.
Thats the point of the movie. That sensuality was only her on-stage behavior. Off-stage she kept herself for her loved one only. Also, being dancer was common about Romani girls that time period (but there was an older relative to watch her to not happen other stuff bc. they should keep virginity until marriage). The slure wuld be better just to be used by the negative characters to point out with the plot it is wrong to use.
Yes, which means that she served her narrative purpose well. That doesn't mean that she was "good Romani representation", which is what he's saying.
I dread the day Disney makes a live action version of this movie, just looking at what they did to Mulan
dude he made a video about the news that they are, and let’s just say the casting is not at all accurate
@@malarkymackeral this is the worst news I have heard in a while, Disney really don't care about culture do they
I literally made a list of what could go wrong with the live action remake.
They don’t seem to understand what REAL representation is… like with the new lilo and stich. The colorism is horrendous.
For a live action hunchback of Notre Dame, I hope they cast someone like Raisa Mihai. She’d be amazing with aquamarine contact lenses, and her voice is gorgeous
@@kieravermeal9127
-Gargoyles.
-Still using the word “gypsy”
-Still including “A Guy Like You”
-Removing Frollo’s sniffing Esmeralda’s hair
-Deleting/changing song lyrics
Thanks so much for this elaboration, I had been wondering about it. I appreciate you noting the good along with the bad!
First of all, she wasn't technically Romani, she was ethnically French and probably not as dark coloring and her real name was Agnès (read the book). Secondly, no French tsigane (sorry for using that word, that was what I was told to use by my French family, and we have married in Romani relatives) would look like that, French Romani tend to look closer to their Eastern European counterparts in Paris (I live near Paris so I do see them) than the ones in Spain. The dancing is different and the music is different. But you're correct, this isn't a good representation of Romani in the 1400s.
But the movie was literally about the ignorant men who sexualized her for being unbound by thier own European culture. There is nothing wrong with depicting history, that's all this movie was doing, that's why they depicted esmarslda as exotic and desirable, and she was the heroine, while the European men were the bad guys because of how they objectified her. There is nothing disrespectful about esmaralda's depiction
No buts
@@warqaanizar2527 yes buts
Part of Esmeralda's story and why we feel for her is BECAUSE she is sexualized by the people around her.yes it isn't a good stereotype but it's true for alot of women. Not only that but we actively see Esmeralda use that to her advantage as I feel a real woman would.
In fact it almost implies she plays into those tropes to fool them. I as a tan woman understand what it's like to be feticized and I find it empowering to see a character like Esmeralda
Only I think what people are talking about now is they want a better world. One where reality is depicted with cultural respect. In the book Esmeralda is 16, so for Disney to make the decision to completely change the character AND sexualize and fetishize her was really inappropriate and a trope of Romani women that needs to end in media.
Her being beautiful and confident and loving life would have been enough for an interesting and realistic character.
@@nmg6248she is completely sexualized in the book too. Even though she was a minor, she is portrayed as incredibly desirable with unmatched beauty.
@@nmg6248 omg it's almost like they have done the same thing to all the Disney princesses and it makes even less sense given the context of their stories. We just need to start representing women better. It isn't just a problem with how they portray romani. Its everything.
@@nmg6248in the real pocahontas story, Amonute was a child at just 10 years old when the white settlers showed up and when she met John. she was 17 or 18 when she married John and he was 29. the story is twisted to fit fantasy.
that happens sometimes.
in the original Little Mermaid and the original Cinderella and other fairytales there are very dark and disturbing aspects and elements that were erased. in the little Mermaid, every step she takes with her new legs feels like walking on knives, and she can only gain a soul if a human falls in love with her.. which the prince doesn't. he falls for the princess that finds him on the beach after Ariel saves him, and unfortunately, this means she has to die because she couldn't get the prince to fall in love with her before he fell in love with someone else. instead of allowing her sisters to kill him/killing him herself so that she may live, she chooses to die so that he can be happy with his new lover because she loves him.
the cinderella story involves one of the wicked stepsisters cutting a toe off and the other a chunk of her heel in an attempt to fit into the glass slipper.
I'm certain there are more examples, but these are some good ones. disney changing the story to fit their child audience is pretty common.
There's a difference between a character being in-story sexualized and them being sexualized by the writers/animators, which she arguably was. Either way, her character definitely isn't inherently problematic, but that doesn't make her "good Romani representation" necessarily.
I'm also Romani Gypsy and I'm Just fucking happy we have a famous Romani character. Pick it apart all you want, you should be happy we even have her.
to tell someone "you should be grateful" to have any kind of representation is wild
@@mushmush4980Well, is it really better to be invisible then?
Esmeralda happens to be brave and smart and tough and good-hearted, and I wonder if anybody can find a better portrayal of a Romani woman in any other movie.
@disappointment3090 But I don't see what other word they could have been used, that would have been realistic in a movie about Medieval France.
@disappointment3090 Well, it is true that Pocahontas is aged up so she's 18 years old and that she's not kidnapped in the Disney movie.
But we can still hear the Englishmen refer to her people as "savages" and "Indians" and "heathens" and "vermin", which all seems accurate for the movie's 17th century setting.
"The Princess & The Frog" has actually been criticized for not showing enough of the racism in real life 1920s New Orleans.
But there is one scene where some men tell Tiana that a woman with her background shouldn't dream about running her own business, but that's it.
Are you a man?
Disney makes background characters ugly idk what to say man.. and esmeralda doesn't have to be seen as someone who was drawn using horrible ideas but you could instead look at it in a better light and see that she is just a pretty young woman who knows how to use her looks to get through life. She is aware that she is strong, beautiful, intelligent, and overall a very good and kind natured person..
I like to think that she shows the good side and shows that Romanian women are all these very kind and loving things and that they are not only elegant and loving but also strong and firm when they are around those they care about
Romani not Romanian
strongly agree
@@isaak6375 I really could care less, this is a UA-cam comment section
Do Americans forget that Romani are also European? It’s good you’re shedding light on this but holy F why is everyone acting as if western Europe and America all have a homogeneous culture
What the actual blazes are you on about.
Americans...... Americans from which American country?
@@nochu9753People usually refer to those from the United States as “Americans.”
really? this is what you have issue with?
He's not American
Im not romani, but i am a woman, it's always been weird to me how for a lot of people is inappropriate for a a woman of any race, nationality or heritage to be portrayed as a sexual being, women can be sexual, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Being sexy or flirty, overly femenine is not exclusionary of being intelligent and worthy of respect. It makes me feel weird to see these videos cuz it sort of feels like on an attempt of being better we're going back to purity culture, i know this video has good intentions, and for sure has some really good points about the portrayal of romani culture, but the overall view seems a little harmful towards women. I loved esmeralda as a kid and i do now, cuz she was strong and independent and beautiful, she taught me from a young age that i don't have to give up my femeninity to be strong.
You may be right, but she is a character from a book/movie (I haven't read the book, so I don't know how she is represented there), with her own idiosincrasy and her own role in the story that needs her to be a certain way for it to work within that story. It's like saying Frollo is a bad representation of Parisians, or not all people with physical disabilities are as naive as Quasimodo. They are characters who should be allowed to be characters.
Literature and cinema, and all art, is there to make us think, so the critique is valid if we want to move forward from the XV century mentality, but it doesn't take from her being a specific character who plays a specific role.
I'd be more upset about the way the other romani might be represented. They are more charicatures than her, she is a fully rounded character with dreams, values, and personality, and that should be more important than the way she dresses.
The problem is that Romani people are so underrepresented, that she is the only face of how we are seen by many people as opposed to there being millions of faces seen when someone thinks of parisians
@@florida.florian, I hear you, but that's a problem of underrepresentation, not of this movie itself. More movies (especially those for children) should present characters from different ethnicities, and Disney definitely has a history of ignoring those characters, but it's not their fault that Esmeralda is the only romani character that we know about 🤷♀️ I mean, the one romani character we got is pretty awesome, if you ask me, I bet thousands of people around the world wanted to be more like her (she's defo 1000% more interesting than any white princess we've got from them)
In the book she isn't a Romani women, she was kidnapped as a child. The Disney movie changed many things.
@@florida.florian Genuine question, what videos or even other movies would you reccomend for people to learn from then?
@@florida.florianShe made Romani people cool to me. Is that not a good thing??
While I do agree with your points, I personally love Esmeralda, and I don't think people should cover the sun with their fingers. Some Romani people stole back in the day, so it doesn't mean Esmeralda doing it is portraying a stereotype, just something that used to happen with SOME Romani people, not saying it still happens or that every Romani is a thief. I'm from a different part of the world, where Romani people actually don't mind being called gitanos which translates to gypsy. Either way, I do believe she was overly sexualized, I'll give you that!
Lots of people who “don’t mind” something are not in a place to refuse / set a boundary around it. It may not be safe for them to say otherwise.
She was actually accused of muder and sexualosed by Frollo
@@treetea well, in this case, they simply don't mind being called gitanos!
@@IsThisUsernameAvailableI'm sorry, but you can very well mind someone being insulting while knowing the stressful fight that would come up when correcting them isn't worth your sanity...
@@cosmicandy4620 again, they don't mind being called that, they even call themselves that way (gitanos)
That was the one of the big points of her character, To be sexy. But the difference is its clear that she KNOWS she is good looking as throughout the film she taunts the boys to get away with things. But i think it was also meant to show the type of person quazzimoto wanted to be. He wanted to be brave and strong and handsome like her. Which made it all the more sad for thr audience when she picked the other guy. But she played her part and got quazzimoto to be the man he had wanted to be from the beginning. I loved her.
TBH, I am not a Romani,but I loved Esmeralda for her character. The way I viewed it, she was defying the stereotypes Frollo had about Romani people by being extremely kind, true to herself and defying Frollo, who viewed her as a sexual object and considered Romanis to be criminals and barely even human. As for her being called “gipsy” all through the movie, I thought of it as a way to make Frollo’s prejudice and despise towards Romani people, it made sense to me that the racist and bigoted villain would use slur names to refer to the people he loathed so much, and I perceived it more as a reflection of Frollo’s character than as a disrespect towards Romani characters. However, I am not Romani, so there are things such as the design of the character and her clothes I didn’t really pay much attention to until I watched this video, I did, however,notice the hypersexualization in the dancing scene. Thank you for you content, I’ll subscribe to your channel 😊
Same. NGL I always adored Esmerelda and never got why she wasn’t more popular at the time, considering how much crap she deals with. Really the only problem I wish the movie addressed was Quasimodo and Phoebus constantly calling her a Gypsy, she NEVER corrected Quasimodo that is a bad word and the proper term is Romani. But also, aside the gargoyles’ awful song, there is another bad song in the movie, Court of Miracles. The whole movie is about the Romani being good people deep down who are struggling in a very prejudiced environment, and many have to resort to theft and scamming innocent people to make any money. The song basically admits these negative stereotypes, but NEVER explains why they have to resort to these actions. Doesn’t help the Romani people are basically portrayed as ugly and ratty while Esmerelda is the only Romani character that appears normal and beautiful
You lost me in the end. I loved dressing up like her as a kid. She was a strong woman character I admired. Don’t shame kids for wanting to dress up like their hero’s simply because they’re white kids.
I think he was more critisizing Disney for desinging those clothes in the first place.
I like that you pointed out you can still like a character and have fond memories of them while acknowledging the bad/harmful representation. Hopefully if we keep talking about the pros and cons, in the future we can see better representation while holding up the good parts.
Can you please show us real Romani people in traditional clothing and in modern clothing as well. I really want to see. I think everyone will love it.
@@romaroseRoma in the Americas tend to be less identifiable in the mainstream society, as in many ways everyone except for the indigenous peoples came from elsewhere
Can't you just go to some not remote town and enjoy the show? Without existing your car of course. Just to be safe.
I think the one thing Esmeralda did “right” was introducing a whole generation to the Romani people in a way. I’m not Romani. I’m just an average white American. But if it wasn’t for her I’d never have known about the Romani people and wanted to learn more. So she’s flawed but was a gateway for many to this beautiful group of people ❤
That's kinda the problem though. The fact that a lot of people will only ever experience Esmerelda when it comes to fictional Romani characters, means that any stereotypes she adheres to will be spread to those people.
@@RasmusVJSYou’re under every comment with this…. Got d*mn Rasmus
it’s not disney, it’s Victor Hugo. In his time, they didn’t know what cancel culture is and didn’t worry about stereotypes. Overall though, Victor Hugo is a very well respected person. He was a strong advocate against the royalists and issues that France was dealing with at that time.
She is not romani in the book tho
@@ScorpionFlower95she isn’t????? thanks for informing me!
@@abbsbrady7264 you're welcome. here's some more info: she was abducted by romani, who abandoned an actual romani child that was deformed, and took her. i believe the deformed romani baby was quasimodo, but i may be wrong
So, I question the whole over sexualized thing. Like, are we women just not supposed to be sexy at all? 🤔 Because sometimes I feel like people are saying that we women are just supposed to go around wearing large, baggy, shapeless, paper bags over our bodies and have absolutely no sex appeal whatsoever.
Personally, as a woman, I‘be always thought that Esmeralda was pretty and not even in overly sexual way. If you look at her outfit, it’s actually quite tame. So, she’s got an off the shoulders top and she’s showing a little cleavage, but otherwise she’s covered up. Hell, Kida from the Atlantis movie is showing a heck of a lot more skin and cleavage than Esmeralda is. 🤷🏽♀️ I just honestly confuse me when I see takes like this. As a woman, I like to feel free to express me and dress myself however I want. Women are the fairer sex and it doesn’t matter what we wear or don’t wear…we‘re going to be sexualized regardless. Men are sexual beings. Women are sexual beings. From a biological standpoint, we’re supposed to be sexually attracted to each other, aren’t we? That’s the sign of being healthy, red-blooded humans, isn’t it?
And lastly, it’s not like they made Esmeralda a bad character. I think she’s one of the stronger Disney female characters. She’s strong, fearless, brave, stubborn, outspoken, kind, smart, and has a fiery personality. She’s aware of the injustices in society and she isn’t afraid to call people out like Frollo on his hypocrisy. Now, if she’s was just some clueless bimbo who had no idea about what’s going on in the world around her and if she just tried to use her sex appeal or her dancing skills to get herself out of bad situations, then I could get behind the criticism. Also, he mentioned that the way the other Romani characters are dressed is kinda of racist. So, if that’s the case…then how should they have been dressed? Asking truly out of curiosity.
This is new information to me that I definetely appreciate. While the animators definetely had ill intentions with stereotyping her design, this does unintenionally show more about how she is viewed and fetishized by Frollo and Quasimodo. Every time we see them through their gaze, they see her as something she is not, similar to the caricature in the painting.
I love your analyzations of Esmeralda through the white, Westernized, male gaze, and I look forward to more!
I find your videos to be incredibly informative and needed to educate people on the culture of Romani people and destroying the stereotypes that fell upon them for decades. Keep doing what you’re doing!
One of the biggest challenges, I think, about Romani representation in the US, is that a lot of Americans are still completely unaware about Roma being a distinct ethnic group. I've had people literally fight me on this. "It's not racist because g*psies aren't a race!" We don't have the same context Europeans do, so many Americans still think of Roma as a lifestyle or social class and it's really difficult to explain to them how that's untrue.
i've had the same experience over here in the UK
There are gypsies begging on the streets of my home city. One tried to throw herself in front of my dad while he was driving bc she knew she could sue the fuck out of him if he hit her. Yeah, there are reasons why gypsies are not well respected
It's both things. If you noticed people in the comments quite literally say "romani heritage" talking about someone. So they maybe romani heritage, but they are not gypsies.
I have gypsies beggers near my closest subway station. They ARE gypsies. Cos it's a lifestyle oftenly mixed with certain ethnicities. You know, like multiple actually. It's not homogeneous.
Stay educated 👍
@@LSG101097 By your logic, we could call anyone who is lazy and unambitious the n-word regardless of their actual race. Many people actually do this and it does not divorce it from its racial connotations. It is clearly meant as a racist analogy.
I am actually very personally educated on this because I am part Louisiana Cajun. My ancestors have been called g*psies and white n****rs because they were non-English speaking "poor whites." Racially speaking they were no different from Anglo-Protestant Southerners, but their lifestyle, religion, and language were just different enough to demote their whiteness, and so they were given ethnic slurs accordingly.
It's not both. It's one thing and one thing only: racism. Educate yourself, moron.
In medieval France, the term Romani was not yet used, they would have been referred to as "Egyptiens" coming from the misconception they came from Egypt instead of India, maybe "Bohemians" because a king of Bohemia had vouched for the people at some point or "tzigane" in reference to an old eastern christian sect. There was real confusion on where they came from and the french characters of the time would not have used "Rom" a terminology that was really decided upon in the 20th century to set the record straight by referring to the common sanskrit language origin.
I’m lost. Mostly cause I don’t fully know Romani culture. Sorry if it sounds offensive. Well, 1: I only saw clips of the movie but I still managed to enjoy it. 2: I didn’t really see Esmerelda as an exotic dancer, but a person. I feel like the more I make some points of what I think, the more hate I would get from people.
I feel like her character design would be less of a stereotype if the other Romani characters were also not made through racial stereotypes and more realistic, it just hammers in that most of the knowledge of Romani people was kind of through stereotypes and jokes
A lot of gypsies really view Esmeralda as a representation of their ethnicity in the world. I always tell people that I am like her.
Dawg thats a slur 😨
Maybe don't use a slur when describing people-
@@Confetti_Spaghetti im from spain and here we call ourselves that with all pride. Just because someone says that this world is offensive to them, doesn't mean it offends the whole ethnicity. A lot of other Rroma in other countries identifies themselves as gypsies.
@@Altaline Not a slur when you actually always have identified as that.
At least she is shown as brave, pure-hearted, intelligent, hardworking, kind, well-dressed and neat. All these are the opposites of the negative stereotypes against Romany. 🤗
On the flip side I feel like disney ALWAYS portrays the white princesses/ female protagonists to be modest and demure. Rapunzel? Cinderella? Belle (especially Emma Watson Belle). Says a lot about the writers' perception of women imo.
Someone once pointed out that before Tiana, all of the brown/black girls were scantily clad while the white girls (even the most "free spirited" like Merida) were modestly dressed, with the exception of Ariel. Characters like Es ans Jas were dancing suggestively, while everyone else waltzed.
@@erica-5198Never thought of that.
@erica-5198 exactly. It's this racist perverse notion that all white women/girls exemplify purity and morality while brown girls are exotic and seductive. It's perpetuated by MEN especially white men all over Hollywood and literature.
Megara is hardly modest and demure when she tries to seduce Hercules and she's white.
@@erica-5198There were a few sexualized female leads from Disney in the '90s (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmeralda and Megara).
But we don't get that character type from them today whether the girl is white or a POC.
Merida is very free-spirited, but she would hardly dress provocatively as she's a tomboy with no interest in being pretty let alone sexy.
And she's a princess in Medieval Europe and was hardly expected to dress provocatively anyway.
But already with Mulan from "Mulan" and Jane from "Tarzan", Disney decided to move away from the sexy female lead trend.
And it's hardly like they have gone back to that trend in the following decades either.
Tiana and Elsa and Moana are interested in other things than romance (even if Tiana is able to find a love interest anyway) and wouldn't try to be sexy.
Anna and Rapunzel happen to be more bubbly and cute albeit with a tough and proactive side, but they're not the type to be sexually provocative either.
It is true that Isabela from "Encanto" is portrayed as the family beauty, who has to do a dance performance at Antonio's ceremony party.
However, she is never as sexualized as the girls from the '90s were and is allowed to break away from the "perfect princess" role that her grandmother pushed her into.
And I don’t think that anybody can say that Mirabel or Luisa or Dolores is sexually provocative, but they all are POC.
And even though I haven't seen "Raya and the last dragon" yet, I think we can all agree that Raya is a warrior princess rather than a sex object...
I recently found out i was part Romani and i do not look like it at all, i am primary multiple shades of white and that washed out the 1/4 and you would never know looking at me, i look Irish. Even so i want to learn more about the culture from actual Romani people. I am Romani by blood only and i fully understand that i am not Romani, i do not look Romani so i will not be discriminated against for it, and i was not raised around Romani culture. I still want to learn more because connecting with ancestors is an important part of my religion. Im happy i found your channel, a clear and honest source on Romani culture and history from a Romani person. You do not know how hard this was to find, and when i stopped looking you popped up in my youtube. Thankyou so much
And the funny thing is, in the books, we’re note even sure if she’s Romani or not. She was raised by her Romani, but like Quasimodo, she was adopted as a baby
I watched this film a lot as a little girl and I was always so confused at why they treated this lady like an outcast. I felt so sad for her :(
I agree with a lot of what you say in fact almost all. However I feel that you often refer to Romani people as just being dark skinned when in fact a lot of us are lighter-skinned. And I would like to point out having lighter skin hasn't ever protected me from the same racism and stereotypes that affect us all.
@@romarose my mother side is Romani everyone thinks they are native American. My father is in Irish traveller in my parents came to America in the 70s. I favor my father but I have red hair and the whitest skin, in spite of my father not being so fair complected and having dark hair also.I am like the unicorn in the family. In elementary school people would say oh we don't like people like you, but I never really understood what that meant until I got to the 4th/5th grade and all the kids would put x's on their hands because they didn't want our "Gypsy germs". The school did nothing. I married an indigenous Mexican and m most assume I'm a white American and my husband is Mexican.
@@romarose In Virginia then West Virginia that's where we where harassed so much. There is a large community Roma in fact there is a town called Gypsy. A lot of families do still maintain the culture and speak the language and a lot don't have the language but still have some of the culture. We were there for maybe six years. From there we moved to Pennsylvania and most didn't even give us a second look. We moved around a lot, and have lived in New Jersey, North Carolina ,South Carolina. I now live in mid West and I haven't been able to find any Travellers or Roma around here so I just keep to my self. I'm older now and miss being around my culture and people who understand. When I was young I wanted to get away and be something other than a "Gypsy" but now that I'm older I understand that I can't be anything else! I have never fit in with regular white people I don't have anything in common I always feel like I'm an alien when I'm in their presence.
@@romarose Wow nice you know the history of your family migration.Most all of our family is in Ireland and some two of my mother's siblings are in Ankara Turkey.
@@romarose Yes we lived in the Village :) and also 20 miles up a hollow in a small camp of mostly older Travellers WV.
@@romarose The 🌎 is a small place bc we stayed on paint creek for three years near green castle. The school was terrible for us kids. Thanks why we moved on. To be honest those folks on the TV show don't really seem to represent the culture I have grown up in. Girls in skimpy cloths and such.We were raised in long skirts and thought to be modest.
I mean, I get your point, but honestly, a LOT of Disney heroines are overly sexualized depictions of women, especially in the older ones. Not that that makes it any better, but let's just say that normal / average girls of any race or ethnicity are not usually represented well by Disney.
I'm going to gently disagree with you, although perhaps what we really disagree on is the definition of sexualization. Sure, Belle, Cinderella, Ariel, etc. are depicted with exaggerated hourglass figures and are pined after by various men, but to my knowledge, the only leading ladies who are depicted explicitly garnering sexual appeal (in particular, doing a seductive dance, wearing clothing that shows more skin during said dance, etc.) are Jasmine and Esmeralda. Pocahontas also comes to mind (I recall reading that the producers openly stated that they wanted her to be "sexy" while designing her.) I don't think it's a coincidence that these women are POC and that the creators of these movies felt comfortable portraying them this way in kid's movies. I can see how both situations can be considered a form of sexualization, but I feel like the sexuality and "exoticism" of the POC characters is made much more explicit, whereas the other characters are depicted as alluring for a having a sort of...purity? Innocence?
@@dubblebubbletoilandtrouble6646 Hmm, I guess that could just be a difference of personal opinion. Ariel or Meg for example do not just seem like they were made to be "innocent sexy" to me, and this is already disregarding what age they're supposed to be. I think what we can all agree upon is that this whole issue and topic isn't exactly Disneys strong suit either way.
@@dubblebubbletoilandtrouble6646I agree with this. The only ones who aren’t really sexualized from the older batch (pre 2010) would be Mulan and Tiana (they’re still beautiful but not sexual). The Caucasian princesses were definitely more the “ingenue” stereotype of precocious young women, while the 90s princesses of color were more independent/headstrong but also more overtly sexualized. It’s almost like calling independent women sexy but their independence isn’t directly linked to it, it really is tied to the way their cultures are presented (mainly in their dress and dancing).
Also, I’d like to mention that Kida from Atlantis has a pretty sexy design as well and she’s a poc too (or at least presented that way, like a Native American almost)
@@0FynnFish0 The point about Megara is totally fair, I didn't think about her. Ariel is a bit of a grey area for me because though she's wearing what's basically a bikini top, she still acts like a wide-eyed child (she's supposed to be 16) whereas Jasmine (supposed to be 15 lol) is depicted more maturely and more overtly sexualized. But I do agree that Disney has some issues with female representation overall. I just feel like their track record with POC women tends to be on the "openly sexual" spectrum more often. And given that Esmeralda is one of the only mainstream depictions of a Romani woman that a lot of people are familiar with, I can get why it would particularly bother this creator.
The point of her character alone is already obvious, she even said herself she danced for coins
Well.. at the same time, the movie doesnt frame her sexuality as bad. just, that its present. Her being beautiful also has narrative reasons. Shes the beauty that hunchback wish he had and lacks.
its got narrative importance.
I loved Esmeralda as a child - I thought she was beautiful, strong, with a good heart. I think part of her character design is seen as Frollo sees her - he is extremely sexually seductive - but also as Quasi Modo sees her - bright, loving, ND brave, with a great smile. Also, we have to remember that Disney tends to make all the non-main, romantic characters more cute/interesting/character like, and we're looking at this 30 yrs later. I love your channel ❤ and love how you represent children
so basically Esmeralda is bad representation through no fault of the character itself, but of Disneys characterisation of her???
Yeahhh when I watched the movie more recently, I realized how sexualized Esmeralda was. It makes you think of all the brown women Disney has sexualized along with her like Jasmine and Pocahontas. It is completely understandable to have mixed feelings about her character. It just shows we need more Romani representation because large companies like Disney can do better.
Absolutely! Especially as Pocahontas (she had other names as well) was like 11 at the time the movie was set. Who came up with the idea of bringing up an 11 year old Native American girl's age just so they could over sexualise her?
@@rachelmatthews3070 You know who came up with that nasty idea, Anglo-Saxon men
@@WapajeaWalksOnWater well I meant who the hell at Disney. But your point is excellent! 👏
Back when it was released in 1996, it would have been a big deal that Disney featured Romani characters at all.
As a brown 33y woman from the east who watched this as a kid, it was actually good and different feeling to see a brown smart, beautiful with an independent character and was so full of life
As a bi woman…I never cared about how sexy Esmeralda was. I love how bold, fearless, compassionate and dedicated to justice she is.
There’s far more to her character than just “sexy dancer who entices men.”
Why is bros skin so exquisite 😭
Fr he be shining 💀✋
It’s a filter bruh
Because olive skin is amazing. Rarely burns, always tans. He's gonna have that softness for years to come.
Her being s3xy is kinda relevant to the plot but yes, it is still problematic overall.
That and the time it is (Middle Ages) in Romani people were persecuted very openly and violently.
I just wish every movie was a Hello Kitty movie where everyone just hugs (platonically ofc) and gets along :(
@@anubis7457 True
Thoughts on the ‘39 version? That’s one of my favourite classic films. Esmeralda is actually the main character in that.
I havent seen it but wasn’t the actor not Romani?
@@romarose wait was that the one who had romani heritage but got an electrolysis?
@@stripedpolkadots8692 You might be thinking of Rita Hayworth. She was Romani on her father's side.
You've got the most calm, gentle voice I've ever heard. Love listening to your content, it is so informative and awesome! ❤
:O your voice is so soothing
TBF the only people calling Esmeralda racial slurs ("gypsy") are the villains. Which I guess is a clue that "gypsy" is a bad word.
She calls herself that, if it was only the villains it would be fine, also clopin calls Roma that too
@@florida.florian Good point.
Like all the characters use the word; I myself only learned a few years back it was a slur for romani people and I like to think the people working on the movie were ignorant to it as well. Not that it justifys the use in the movie's script or that they didn't seem to do any research about the group they decided to represent.
@@pusheenqueen519 My Romani friends refer to themselves as that word. For years I didn’t realize it was a slur. I say Romani now, but it’s all very confusing when people in the same group have different interpretations and opinions.
Some Romani people actually prefer to be called gypsies, at least here, so yeah you can offend a gypsy by calling them romani and vice versa.
I just thought they wanted to make her look pretty like a Disney Princess.
Hey! A few videos ago you said that it's very important to understand why cultural appropriation is bad/ the difference to appreciation.
I'd love to hear more about this since it's a difference I personally don't understand and would love to be educated on. Especially where the line between inspiration/appreciation/appropriation even lies.
This is something you could get a good baseline by looking it up on a search engine. There may not be resources specific to Romani culture that are easily found, but the premise still would work for things like indigenous American cultures and Black culture. Biggest thing to ask is whether something is profiting people from the culture in question, or if all the money winds up in the pockets of the ones using the work of that culture.
GUYS, hold up. Yes she pole dances and is seductive, but are we forgetting she is a performer? Performers play into an already popular fantasy, it gets them money and views. And its really easy to act like a pure, fully dressed, and non exploitative human when your belly is full and there’s a roof over your head. She’s not deaf to the fantasy towards Romani women, as a showwoman she used it to her advantage.
The thing is, you can’t have a “wearing pants suit and my personality is my brain” character every time. Sometimes they will be sexy. Sometimes that will get them popular. And sometimes that will bring out loud weirdos who think a cartoon is a reliable reference to believe an entire race are succubi. But pants suit will not prevent sexism or wisen the weirdos, it will just restrict that fiction because you’re afraid of the idea it MIGHT be. The sexism will continue to grow in other ways. Over 20 years of discouraging and shaming the idea of forcing an image onto a a sex/race and Andrew Tate still got as big as he did.
Teach people to think for themselves, then no amount of sexy cartoons will matter anymore. Unless thats all you eat, breathe, and watch - then sexy cartoons will brainwash you. But if you are doing that you don’t need to step back, you need to step in to a therapist office for your blatant hentai addiction.
Finding it interesting how the creator only likes comments that support their opinion but doesn’t challenge the critique (i. e. that her tragic fate is the result of people’s lust for her and that the novel as well as the movie are pretty cathartic in showing that all of those mistreating her get their due).
I don't get why u think it's not a good "representation" of romani, it's litteraly the representation of the reality of how romani's were during that time how they lived. that's why victor hugo's writting is well known, he represent the harsh reality in his writing with some beautiful part. because this world is cruel but also beautiful.
Disney and other Western cartoons have never been good representatives of non-Western cultures.
Esmaralda being Romani always seemed mostly like window dressing - or an esthetic. The movie goes to great lengths to dive into complex religious questions in Catholicism. Portraying the best and worst of it and genuinely does give a nuanced picture of the role of organized religion. In comparison, we learn absolutely nothing about Romani faith or culture
Well, The movie was made in the 90's. It was a lot harder to get a hold of accurate representation or information, especially about nomadic groups...I was a 90's kid, so I remember the labor it took to even do a report on Scotland in 1995.
I didn't even know g**** was a slur until a few months ago. I don't think anything was ill-intended, just unknown.
True. I don't think he saw ill-intent either, doesn't mean you can't call it out.
Weeelllll, in the original book, she actually wasn't born Ramani, she was kidnapped as a baby by a group and raised by them. Her biological mother locked herself in a shed after thinking she lost her baby, even calling Esmeralda names while she danced...
The mother finds out that Esmeralda was her really lost daughter. But it was too late and Esmeralda was already being sentenced to death and the mother died from a broken heart...(which, fun fact: Quasimodo failed to save Esmeralda from the fire, and she dies from the smoke)
Would you consider a cosplay of Esmeralda, in her outfit, to be culturally inappropriate or okay? Just trying to better understand since she seems like at least an inspiration to lots.
Since Esmeralda’s design is based on a racial caricature dressing up as that would be dressing up as a racial caricature
@@florida.florian good to know! Thanks for not judging me for my question! Would love more respectful representation in the world!
I mean at that time they didn't use the word Romani (at least where I live the word "roma" which is the hungarian word for Romani was first introduced in in the end of the 20th century. And lot of Romani people here still prefer to be called "cigány" which would translate to gypsy but it is used very differently. (as we know there are depth to words and sometimes a translation of a word will not cover what the word fully means).
I grew up in a village where around 60% of people were Romani. I am somewhat Romani, but I don't live in the lifestyle and I don't speak any of the languages anymore, only bits of it, so I don't call myself that.
Romani was always our native name, it’s our name in our language
@@florida.florian I know that in most of the languages it is Romani. Like in the language we - hungarians - call lovári Romani. But there are other Romani languages where they do not refer to themselves as roma or romani at all. Though they are not referred to as "cigány" either in these languages either, that's the word hungarians use for them.
Sadly most of the Romanies here lost their culture almost entierly due to being forced to leave the nomadic lifestyle during communism and they actually fell back into a very dark place, which our goverment willfully upholds. (also in communism there was an attempt to completly strip them from their culture) Most of them never makes it trough 8th grade and it is f-cked up because most of the time it is not because they are not academically talented. The schools are almost always systematically racist. I remember copying my Romani classmate's answers in a test and she got a 4 and I got a 5 (5 is best 1 is worst in the hungarian grading system) which was complete bs. That teacher got fired later because she was also beating up students, but I saw this happen a lot and I've rarely seen these teachers facing consequences. I started being vocal about it, than suddenly my grades dropped the down too. I wonder why? :|
That is an *Excellent* way of explaining it!
I wish I had known how to voice this as a Mexican immigrant growing up in Canada.
"Positive" stereotypes are still reductive and put people in boxes. People are three dimensional and deserve to be treated as such!
Thank you for the educational content! I've been learning a lot and I've been un-learning harmful things I had never thought to question. 😊
His voice is so soothing, wtf-
As an arab i feel the same way about jasmine
She's better here than in the book but that's not saying much when the book was literally awful. Not only was it extremely racist against Romani people, everyone was an asshole in it and it just wasn't a good story in my opinion it felt unnecessarily pessimistic
I agree. One thing I have to point out tho is that they sexualize most female Disney characters so it’s not just a Romani thing, it’s a misogynistic thing.
Good observation
Congrats on missing the point of the characters and the plot 🤦♂️
I'm thinking you're the one who missed the whole point, actually 🤦🤦🤦
Imagine telling a Roma person they "missed the point" and thinking you as an outsider know better, when they rightfully point out how their own ethnic group is being portrayed
@@modkip25what a brilliant retort.. I'm speechless 🤣
@@lianamariasorainen8086the only problem is Esmeralda’s characterization has nothing to do with her race. Basically every Disney character was like that at the time. This guy is making it about race when it shouldn’t be
That’s what I’m saying, she’s not supposed to represent anything
I don’t care tbh. She is iconic to me stereotypes and all.
What is good Romani representation? I've personally witnessed a lot of violence, sexism, homophobia and disrespect for other peoples property and values, and a sense of entitlement of their own ways over the rights of others. I'm not saying this is everyone, but the Romani people that moved into my community were this way, and very frightening.
Varied, and showing the lived experiences of those people without the bias of the status quo observer. You may have had negative experiences with Romani people, so can anyone have with any group.
@@RasmusVJS by all means. Please share your experiences, if you know any Romani people that aren't sexist and homophobic for starters.
@@phily8093 I don't know any Romani people. But it isn't a requirement to know that not all members of an ethnic group are intolerant, since no such ethnic group exists. Anything I could say in regards to potential Romani people I'd known would be purely anecdotal anyways, and wouldn't really prove anything.
@@RasmusVJS but you can admit things that are commonplace and accepted within societies, religions and cultures.
@@phily8093 Sure. That doesn't mean that those elements make up good representation.