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I deal with my 18 year old in exactly this manner and find that her level of thinking and problem solving and her level of self awareness tends to be higher than people my own age. I allow her to make her own choices and also allow her to suffer whatever consequences of those choices but I think the real success is that hen we discuss the consequences it is never with a see I told you so attitude but more of a how did those choices make you feel and what did you learn from those consequences and how will that change your choices in the future. I feel the principles of all of this is spot on but the hard part is the dialog that is needed between parent and child and where I feel most people will fall short as they are unable to process that extended line of thinking. This was absolutely fascinating IMO.
I really enjoyed this thought sparring type style. I was thinking a question and Tim asked it but in a better way I would frame it. Also Felt like I was in the room with them which i imagine is a great sign for end user of a podcast. The guy came with an answer each time and it bent the way I thought. Lovely. Naval showed way more humanness than any video I’ve ever seen with him especially with him starting to get popular. It was great to see him laugh and share his philosophy and call out what he thought at first then take on the shift. I’m no where near ready to have kids but this episode is more than that. I’m only an hour in but wow this is more an exercise in how to think flexibly then anything else. Incredible.
I think this type of parenting works when the parents are emotionally intelligent, have knowledge about the world, have good habits, have good relationships themselves, good communication skills, a lot of inner work needs to be done by parents first, so the modeling becomes easier for the child and you wont have to use coercion.
But if parents lack the knowledge you describe, then their attempts to impose rules are also subject to misfire. So adopting Taking Children Seriously over other parenting philosophies cannot be a matter of the parents needing to have domain-specific knowledge, since such ignorance is a criticism of *all* parenting approaches.
@@loganchipkin4905 you're right the children will see through their hypocrisy but following a model that has worked for many with few tweaks may be less harmfulfor the kids in such a situation. Especially in India, where we live with extended families and have elders contributing to child rearing. And both the parents are working members.
@@CharmiShah2810 It seems to be an improvement for most families even who haven’t done the internal work (which I agree is necessary for a truly happy family, but isn’t necessary for being functional and non-chaotic). As in, there will be a lot of conflicts just like all families, but with TCS they’ll be easier to navigate for secure and insecure parents alike. (That’s not to say there aren’t even better parenting practices for happy families. I think TCS philosophy can make any given practice better, but TCS doesn’t actually consist of a practice itself so is lacking when it comes to what to do. It’s mostly an epistemological theory.) I say this mostly out of my experience of TCS households growing up. The first generation from the 90s didn’t have the emotional and introspective knowledge we have now. I think TCS still helped them be better than they would have been otherwise. (Possibly not for everyone. Some people experienced pressure to be TCS, and maybe those people would have been better off being conventional, I don’t know. I’d need to speak to the adult kids to have a good sense of that.)
I'm now just starting the bonus section. Something I wish would have been brought up is how the normal, average, everyday person might implement this. There's a section where Naval goes on a mini-rant (rant sounds bad, but you get the gist) where he basically says the life that involves wakin up early, taking your kids to school, picking them up, doing homework, etc "sucks." I think we ALL wish we were unscheduled and could philosophize on our computers all day long but... I bet at least 80% of people simply can't. We work. We have mortgages. We have bills. Some by choice, some by consequence, some because that's just what it takes to get by these days. I'm planning on picking up the book. And I hope it's really clear how the average, every day person can implement this style of parenting in their family. if others have read it or know -- I'm all ears!
This was the comment I was looking for. Interesting ideas but sometimes the counter examples were a little strawman-ish. My wife and I both work, but getting our kid ready around school and bedtime isn't a fight, they don't hate it, no one hates school, etc. There's a much more mellow and decent middle ground where a lot of us exist that seemed to be ignored for the sake of making a point. That said, I'd still like to explore the practical implementation of the concepts in a more average situation.
Hi Lulie. Are there any hard limits to this? I feel like the conversation does not touch on this. Like how do you define a 'child' from what age?What about rules that limit immediate harm on the life of the child? I feel like there needs to be some hard limits to some of this. Thanks.
@@thinkmyelin A parent like Aaron might be better equipped to answer the detailed practicalities of this question than me, but the short answer is: It depends what you have in mind. There are hard limits in the same way there are for your adult friends. So, if a friend runs out into traffic and doesn’t see a car coming, you pull him back (since he wasn’t actually intending to harm himself, so he wants that kind of relationship with you). If he’s eating rather a lot of ice cream, you might ask out of surprised curiosity whether that actually makes him feel good, but you wouldn’t stop him. The difficulty with answering this question is that it comes from the prevailing assumption that children are a different category and that your job is to shepherd them, instead of help them by their own standards. Taking Children Seriously is the view that children are full people, entitled to the same rights and respect as anyone else. I am guessing the question behind the question is: Can this possibly be safe? What about edge cases? On the website there are more articles dealing with edge cases. But the basic answer can be extrapolated from what Aaron describes in this episode: Interacting with the world safely is a complex problem that requires creative solutions.
This philosophy is harder to integrate when you’re starting down the track for whatever reason. Worth the effort. Children raised with such values develop a strong sense of their rights and obligations because of implicit expectation. May I suggest you refer to The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff. Pioneers are not intimidated by moral versus scientific arguments and evidence and would not be pioneers if they constrained themselves to the publication of the latter. In any case how do we feel about referring to the science when we legislated against husbands hitting wives? Once you become aware of the essential foundations for emotional well-being it all becomes a puzzle worth sorting and completing. Each person’s process is unique and involves knowing and possibly healing one’s own emotional heritage in order to find and create one’s path. Thank you for shining light. I hope it inspires many.
I have listened 90% of all your podcast. This is by far the best episode I have listened. Not because I have kids and I discovered something new (partially maybe) but the format. Very controversial topic being interrogated by two intellectuals. Thank you 🙏
This content is incredibly refreshing. Tim asks about the data and as psychologist and human reprogrammed for many years I can tell you we have massive data for generations of people that doing things the other way is incredibly traumatizing and we have all the data we need….think about what humans are trying to do when they finally step into growing themselves and working on themselves…they work to finally be who they really are and to be free…instead of being programmed into slaves who lives under authoritarian rule that stays in their programming long after they leave home, the can be raised as sovereign free citizens of the world and that will stop al the freaking trauma created by the other system that is nothing more than a top down template of government rule that effectively conquers and domesticated people into slaves which they tend to live out their entire lives into the grave…freedom is what people seek and they should have it from the beginning…I can tell you that I was smarter than both of my parents when I was young and just wanted the to trust me as a sovereign being who had wisdom that would’ve guided us through many things and instead like all kids I was thought of as a lower, second class citizen and they both never let me co-lead our family as a free being and they both ended up programming me into someone that spent years having to reprogram myself from the trauma of that awful authoritarian rule that was domesticating me out of the intelligence and intuition I was born with until you barely know who you are. WE have the data..a mass population of sick and traumatized people who can barely function in teh requirements of this world and operated in empowerment. They don’t kenos how to achieve freedom because they were prisoners as children and even though the are technically free they are mostly still afraid of their parents and still suffering from every traumatic blow to their nervous system and their psyche of being treated as slaves to a certain way of being that technically crushed their very soul and in this modern world we can see that we are paying the price for it with a broken population that can barely function and is trying to figure out who they really are. This work is on track…I can tell you that we have plenty of data on raising children as slaves to a system even though it doesn’t work so why do we need 20 years more of some study to try something new….how much worse can it be than what we’ve done to children as we can see all the injured adult children of the world still having to recover from what happened to them and when you allow people to be free you’re operating in a higher frequency intention. Please trust this wisdom and let the powerful beings that kids are be free to be who they are instead of suppressing their power and then expecting them to be empowered later on when they will end up afraid on their own shadow as much as they became afraid of mom and dad.
We brought up our two kids in the "unschooling" philosophy, inspired by John Holt. And we would not change anything of significance if we had to do it again. Things have changed a lot in the last 20 years, making unschooling even MORE relevant. Schools have frankly become baby-sitting institutions, where "learning" is a by-product if there is any. Also, personal learning platforms (UA-cam, Khan Academy etc.) have become enormously more effective. I am looking forward to listening to this episode.
Though I don’t buy into these radical ideas 100%, it’s very interesting to listen to this conversation. There’re bits that make sense. Thanks for sharing!
The interesting part about this, what so many people fail to think through, is that philosophies like this and how a lot of people publicly raise their children on social media and the advice that people give, there is no evidence long-term that these things are correct. We don’t have a 30, 40, 50 yr old person that we can look to as the end result of these type of things. However, the idea of fostering your child’s curiosity is essential. It is our job as parents to allow their natural talents to come out in a world that wants to make everybody the same.
Having two young kids, your recent pods have been perfect for me, ty Tim! Can you please try something different and get one with Stupple and Dr. Becky, that would be classic !!!
I would advise a lot of caution for parents/dads leaning into this . I personally WAS in favor of “free range” style parenting that Aaron speak to but it can backfire down the line . Don’t forget that his oldest is 7 yrs old- so the experiment really needs to play out and see how this ends up long term -
@@zblusin so many ways....bad health, bad teeth, snobby children that don't respect you in anyways and when you try to step in after not stepping in for so long they start to hate you and don't listen to you.
Wow, that's quite a trailer. Very much looking forward to watching this one. Thank you Tim for the fantastic work you've been doing over the years and for keeping up with a remarkable level of exigence and excellence. With much appreciation, Leo
These two guys approach this topic of raising children from such an intellectual and academic angle, while at the same time falling short based on their own admission. And, you make it all about YOU; what YOU should do, how YOU should react or respond, what YOU find difficult, so that, when the child turns out a well adjusted adult you have people say: YOU have done a good job! The way these guys talk about raising children makes it something you ‘achieve’. Well done, pat on the back, Victoria Cross, Golden Globe reward, write a book about it, spread the word and be considered an ‘Expert’ on the topic, get speaking engagements and be interviewed at Writers’ Week, be invited by Dr. Phil…. I appreciate men, but the way these men are TALKING Tim, is getting my dander up. Raising children is life, is organic, is very individual (also per family), it is a constant back-and-forth movement between the parent and the child, between one’s own mind and heart and one’s social environment, and something called love that is hard to define…. and really, that is what they show, whether they’re aware of it or not!
As parents, we get to curate our kids environment. If parents only serve balanced, healthy, nutritious meals that becomes the norm - not a rule. If parents don’t purchase TVs and iPads, low screen time becomes the norm - not a rule. You don’t have to be a gatekeeper if there’s nothing to gatekeep. Buuuut how will they ever learn about the “real world”? If they are curious to try things outside the curated environment, let them. But they need to finance it and make it happen on their own. Parents aren’t obligated to be suppliers of their kids every wish and desire.
I worked in a hospital for four years as a nurse. That's where i got all my diseases and had my mental break down. No thank you. Never again. Wanted to help people and then i needed help. It always been my dream job working with doctors.
I would want to hear from parents with adult “children” who were brought up this way. As with all parenting wisdom, I need to see outcomes not just outtakes….even based on life experience
Just look at modern day zoomers. They have no moxy, social skills or grit. Popper was the architect of modern wokism and open borders, cultural genocide.
Mom of 4 here - 3 have launched and our youngest will launch soon. It's my first time hearing the term TCS but we raised our kids similarly. (I grew up in a different environment so it took me a long time to wrap my brain around what I initially wrote off as highly questionable.) I enjoyed this discussion. I agree with much of the theory, but we adapted as our kids got older and we lived & learned.
Mahalo for this conversation! Eye opening regarding how we learn as we develop and the challenge of raising little humans and in some respects on a larger scale: the concepts of influence, cooperation, coercion, behavior change. Knowledge as a form of constraints = timestamp 00:52:32 🤯🤙💪👍
I’m a father of 2. A 3.5 year old and a 9 month old. I’m 20 min into this and it’s most idealistic/ untenable parenting strategy of all time 😂 il check back in as they explain more
Question for Naval re finding a partner as an introvert. > "I like to be alone in cities" This REALLY resonates with me. I'm a slow thinker. An introvert. I also have leadership responsibilities. I enjoy being outgoing and have interesting conversations. What is the story behind how you met your wife? Finding a partner with these qualities is a challenge.
Sleep science is really clear. Consistency is key. That part of the discussion (mainly in the after discussion) about winging it or that there are not clear rules to sleep hygiene ring false with the circadian rhythm science. Just because one ignores or fails to learn about sleep science doesnt mean there are not clear and obvious solutions to good sleep hygiene.
I’m about halfway through the pod (started on Spotify) and my takeaway so far is: 1. The underlying principles, I mostly agree with 2. But I don’t think the means of getting there (at least the ones presented) are necessary.
@@c.m.1248 you can teach kids to follow their passions and explore their creativity, with boundaries, rules, and constraints. I have personally experienced it and I have many other parents in my life with well-adjusted kids who have constraints and boundaries for their kids.
@loganchipkin4905 we have plenty of metrics and research into parenting styles. We have longitudinal research up the wazoo. If you're in psych or behavioral econ you can spend your entire career studying nothing else. Even if you throw all the legit research out and simply resorted to demographically matched case reports (which I generally hate for anything other than a vague, sense of ephemeral vibes) at the very least you could say "here are how x y and z sunsets who report a b and c parenting styles in their childhood felt about those styles relative to their perception of peers experience of alternative parenting styles." If you can 30 hours straight reading the last ten years of research into anything "hey man here's the philosophy again" or "ah but how do we actually determine if anything is good or bad before coming to agreement about how any other thing can be determined to good or bad and what does that mean ad regress infinitum" are not legitimate responses to "hey is there data." "I don't know or care I'm just into the philosophy" would be fine. Arguing against a data-driven approach (as if data and philosophy are mutually exclusive, or pretending parental ethics can be influenced by subjective preference and experience but not by data) isn't.
@@loganchipkin4905 hey Logan. I saw your name on the book. I think Aaron made a big mistake in his book by putting the persuasive philosophical arguments at the end. Most casual readers will read the first chapter about how his kids are gobbling down ice cream, then immediately tune out. Hence the terrible goodreads reviews. In the second edition, please consider reformatting the book to put the rationale earlier than the examples. And consider putting it through some beta readers who are regular people. Not critical rationalists. Just my 2 cents.
To Naval: if you want to no have to coerce them to learn math and enjoy it, I've found that connecting abstract maths to the real world helps to make it concrete and useful in a fun and creative way. I.e. teaching the Pythagorean theorem to make a garden bed. Or building any number of small things or upgrading their current objects they own. Math staying in the abstract is difficult for little kids and unenjoyable. Hence the common refrain or thought "I'm never going to use this". Well, show them how to use it and become builders. Will also boost their self assurance.
Some Taking Children Seriously (TCS) ideas-like problem-solving together, cutting down on punishments, and genuinely listening to kids-are in line with what research calls autonomy-supportive or authoritative parenting. But if you look at complete TCS (no set bedtimes, no limits on junk food, no rules at all), that’s way beyond the usual evidence-based approach. Realistically, TCS is more of a radical moral stance saying “all coercion is automatically bad,” so it ends up brushing off loads of developmental psychology findings. From the standpoint of typical child psychology, that’s a major overcorrection. Kids absolutely do need some structure and guidance to develop well, and TCS tends to underestimate that. Sure, emphasizing empathy and autonomy is great, but tossing out almost every boundary doesn’t match what actual research supports.
Great points. Got me to think and children are not exposed to the consequences of the real world at least so early, so there is no corrective/ feedback mechanism from the world. If you as a adult do not work, you'd be out of a job, but a kid watches screen all day, food still gets on their plates. In fact I believe this causes the exact opposite lesson to be learnt in their heads
When he started talking about school being a prison of bullies it was all over - how do kids build the resilience to deal with bullies if they spend all their time with their family? How do they navigate relationships when they have their first crush? Saying kids will get their social exposure from the surrounding neighbours is bullshit because they will choose to stay inside and watch UA-cam all day according to this philosophy. Wait till they became teenagers and it will be a serious shock to these guys.
Faaaacts! I went to a private Christian school all the way up until my junior year of high school, and let me tell you-talk about a culture shock! That’s when I realized I had *zero* survival skills because I’d been raised in a bubble my whole childhood. Suddenly, I was thrown into the real world with no idea what to do or how to navigate it. This is exactly why this “free-range” philosophy is so dangerous. I’m a fan of David Deutsch too, but when it comes to his ideas about TCS, I just can’t take him seriously (pun intended)-especially since he’s never even had kids himself!
The fact that the kids aren’t even invited as guests here to speak for themselves says all I need to know about this philosophy. If we must take children seriously, then do so by letting speak for themselves so we can all take their message seriously. I love Naval, but he is off on this one a little. IMO. I would avoid extremes. Extreme control or extreme freedom isn’t good. Balance is important as a parent.
Ironic how the same folks who celebrate James Clear when he teaches millions of people that Systems >> training also bristle against instilling systems in the most important people to them in the world.
The difference they're pointing out is that people coerce children into doing things (supposedly for their own good a lot of the time), whereas they would instil the idea or knowledge in an adult because the adult would be treated as equal. These are not same thing.
I've only just started but one of my issues with this is that I don't want my children to struggle with issues that I have not been able to overcome. I struggle to not use screens excessively and using nicotine, so how can I provide a framework for my children to not have these same problems I can't fix in myself?
We address this in the book :) There's no way to *guarantee* that your kid won't face such issues. So you want to develop a relationship with your kid such that if and when he does face an issue, he is completely comfortable coming to you with it. Compare that with current parenting practices - kids, fearful that their parents will discover their secret, work to hide their issue and seek other people (older kids, strangers on the internet, etc.) for advice.
Great advice. I agree that coercion doesn't work. Especially with kids. But letting the kids experience everything on their own and then make suggestions (the gloves example) is better than asking them to follow your rules. Once they realize what's best for them, you'll never have to ask them to follow any rules. The "why" is always more important than "how".
Exactly! Without the 'why', there literally can be no 'how'. For instance, if you force your kids to 'speak politely', then they miss the chance to learn which aspects of 'speaking politely' they need to subtly modify from situation to situation. Hope you like the book!
@@loganchipkin4905 This philosophy is so dangerous, I can’t even. Think about it-when you learn to drive, there’s a clear set of rules to keep you safe. They teach you how and why to follow those rules, but the rules themselves are non-negotiable. The same goes for parenting. Rules need to be clear and followed-simple as that. The lessons and reasoning can come later. Letting your kids “learn” by hurting themselves? That’s just absurd. If your kid doesn’t want to wear gloves, you *tell* them to put on the gloves. Period. End of story. You’re the parent. You have a fully developed prefrontal cortex for a reason-use it. If you really want to make a point, show them a picture of frostbitten hands. Rules aren’t about controlling them; they’re about keeping them safe. That’s your job as a parent.
I agree with most of this, but I can’t get behind "free-range" parenting. It doesn’t make sense to let kids do whatever they want when they don’t yet have the skills to reason properly. Encouraging reasoning and independence is one thing, but giving them total freedom without guidance is irresponsible and even dangerous. It often leads to raising entitled kids-something we already see too much of. Children need to understand that rules exist to protect them, not to control them. You can still nurture creativity and critical thinking while setting clear boundaries.
I find the example of comparing feminism with offering kids agency really interesting. As well as comparing to bossing around and ordering kids to comply with whatever the parent's belief is correct and authority (parent, govt, school system, cultures) brainwashing or conditioning them in fearing authority and believing without critical thinking. Respect for the innate intelligence of an organisim (kids), allowing to explore and exercise one's agency, understanding the impact of power structures (parents vs kids, big vs small, strong vs weak, feeder vs being fed, resourceful vs lack in resource or dependent) I havent finished the whole episode and have read others concern about in what environment, resources and family structures can this work? I believe trauma and lack of safety and insecure attachment styles, exposure to violence, isolation abuse and emotional neglect are more detrimental for kids than a lot of other things. Im not completely in favor but sees theoretically there are ideas that makes a lot of sense. Just because science has proved something or something is long standing doesnt mean it will work for all population. Besides even in research it will tell you the likelihood of something working but foesnt necessarily guarantee 100% success or outcome, therefore we can never know if our kids falls in the group of majority or outliars. I am not a statistics, and also believe science hasnt and cant fully make sense of life, therefore I wont just rely on clinical research for all decisions. When thry said their kids can access UA-cam for endless hours, I also think about if they are on kids mode or not, and whatnif they learnt to access adult version and all sort of crazy harmful ideas on youtube? If no one is censoring their content?
I love this!! I have found myself doing this with my son naturally as it feels most in alignment to allow him his sovereignty. Also, a lot of the things we think we need to enforce on our kids has no basis anyway. This will be controversial to say, but tooth issues aren't caused by a deficiency in tooth brushing, or too much sugar. German New Medicine blows this out of the water, as it does with germ theory, same with nutrition dogma.
What is wrong with germ theory of disease? I assume you are saying that microbes are not the full story of contagious disease spreading, but surely you’re not questioning that it’s a good idea for a physician to wash thoroughly between performing an autopsy and performing a surgery.
I was raised with “free range “ approach like the one he mentions in the book. I am reasonable successful but, I do not think this approach works for everyone. Actually, I believe in a competitive world you should teach/ learn the right way most of the time. Smart Adults will teach you the best way, rather than learning from scratch all the time. Otherwise, most of the time you will get outcompete at the highest level. There is definitely a bigger downside.
The last section about social media is definitely wrong. Both naval and Aaron has no idea what the consumer psyche is. It also appears that they don’t understand the value of playing sports. It’s not a status game at all. It’s about building resilience, team work, leadership and confidence.
Wonderful. Just about the editing on this podcast: Whoever's editing the audio is using the "gate" or expander way too heavily. It takes out all of the natural mouth noises and breaths to the point that it sounds unnatural.
Aaron is trying to teach his kids to learn empirically. Which is fine, but we as parents are also responsible to teach our kids. Learning from others is less painful than learning by mistake. Although is really difficult to learn in somebody else skin
If you make the time to parent this way I think it could be effective, but many well meaning parents will adopt this kind of strategy and fall short how Naval and Aaron implement it and then leave their kids totally unequipped to handle the real world.
The biggest problem I have here is not with what they’re proposing, but the way they are framing parents that aren’t TSC advocates. They seem to suggest that all parents not following TSC are authoritarian tyrants. It’s uncharitable to say those doing “normal” parenting don’t talk to their kids with respect and don’t want to teach their kids the ability to problem solve, and to understand reasoning over rules. I think they are strawmanning non-TSC parenting.
I took some lessons but i have disagreements. I think rules help reinforce and is a beginning phase of teaching. A child doesn't want to brush their teeth and they don't understand the consequences, but they dont need to understand when they are really young. You are just teaching them this is a normal pattern. This is part of a healthy routine. Same as teaching a child to say thank you for someone holding the door for them. But i totally understand the concept of letting kids learn certain things on their own (minus any danger). I also don't agree with yelling at your kids. I think you can do things with compassion. You can say "no" about candy but at the same time console them and help them understand their emotions.If i left a bag of any candy out for my daughter, she would eat it al and ask for more LOL.
Yes. This is good in theory. I need to see kids raised this way and how they turned out as adults. I would take this guy seriously were he a grand father, patriarch with amazing grand children and great grand children who are successful and still love him. Instead, this guy is running an experiment, instead of waiting for the results, he’s here already spreading it. Children are not little adults.. they are children. TCS shouldn’t mean everything goes.
Parents are meant to be guardrails to life that is why we are their keepers. We have loved experience and we know better. A child is not going to know brocolli is best for him until he is 16 with a giant gut and just diagnosed with diabetes.
I see some beneficial aspects of this parenting style but I found myself pointing out many, many holes in Aaron’s thoughts and examples as he went through this conversation.
Tread lightly. This is kind of something reserved for high IQ and potential children. The huge majority of “unschooled children” get addicted to drugs and go to prison. It still requires a lot of time and a very intelligent caregiver.
@@bryce3323I don't have specific data, but my wife has been a public defender for over 10 years and nearly all of her clients have been “unschooled”. I don't know exact percentages, but in my experience the kids that were hardly in school did not do so well in life. Clearly that is significantly different than what they are talking about. But I would worry about someone listening to this philosophy, misinterpreting it and just letting their children be completely free-range without educating them.
@ Do you think her clients had parents who were listening to the Tim Ferriss show in their free time? I'd bet the "unschooling" her clients received was neglect and abuse. Much different than what's being described here.
To be fair, this wasn't a debate. A debate would have involved including an expert or two on the topic of parenting under the traditional approach to counter some of this lunacy. I appreciate Tim's attempts at pushing back, but he is not a parent so couldn't push back based on real world experience m, and most everything they said was anecdotal and not informed by long-term outcomes. Nor does it acknowledge their extreme privilege and how their experience may not apple to others. I wanted to like this episode but as I got more annoyed the more it went on.
It's a moral argument, we dont wait to see the repercussions of freeing slaves and then decide what to do. Owning humans is wrong, stifling people is wrong.
We've already seen repercussions of eating a crappy diet, screen addiction, and addiction to validation en masse scale via social media in the name of a hit of dopamine.
@@LATriBri And yet it continues DESPITE parents knowing this and trying to stop their kids from it. All of society wants to stop kids from becoming addicts and yet it happens anyway.
I INSTANTLY know someon is full of ish when they claim an ABSOLUTE TRUTH when speaking about psychology. This guys BS indicator went off when he told naval "That method of parenting is incorrect because....". Like dude.The VERY FIRST RESPONSE from you to a question when talking to someone as smart as naval should NEVER BE an absolute lol. There is NO WAY to prove that!
I think Aaron made a big mistake in his book by putting the persuasive philosophical arguments at the end. Most casual readers will read the first chapter about how his kids are gobbling down ice cream, then immediately tune out. I hope this message gets to you Aaron. In the second edition, please reformat the book to put the rationale earlier than the examples. And consider putting it through some beta readers who are regular people. Not critical rationalists.
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. We actually played around with the order! We figured it'd be better to hit the reader with tangible examples *first* and explain the underlying philosophy (as well as the four major ways by which rules-based parenting backfires) after that.
I've seen parents try this approach and it backfires very quickly. I have kids who had to deal with kids who have been parented with this approach, they are socially awkward, they could be aggressive and because of this type of philosophy, parents act as full-blown sociopaths who don't have any regard for other kids and people around them.
I have questions. Who in this family has ADHD, ODD, (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance)? Such techniques might help cope with challenges of raising ND children, but it will only take the child so far. NT children will loose out on a lot of development potential through this approach.
Try raising an AuDHD, ODD neurodivergent boys who already believe in 100% in this philosophy. But they take everything to the 10th degree and take over everything.
This was the only podcast of Tim’s I’ve turned off in nearly 10 years of listening. As a father of two, and a very dedicated one too, this was just too much to handle. Such a ridiculous way to raise a child to be a good and successful human.
My mother more or less raised me this way, at least once I got to 10yo. Basically telling me what she thinks I should do, then letting me do what I want and suffer my own consequences. It’s really not that crazy of an approach, especially once they get beyond 10.
If you are that convinced or religiously convinced your beliefs about raising your kids can not dare be challenged I don't know if you are Tim's fan group. As an audience of Tim You must be willing to question your belief system specially the ones you hold dear to yourself. I have 3 kids too
10 minutes in. I usually give discussions like this more of a chance, but I can’t continue to listen. What an idiot. You are the adult. Guide your child and don’t leave them adrift with endless possibilities. Children want loving parental guidance, not permissive weak spined roommates.
@ Not trolling or a bot. This is my only comment on the video, which I was motivated to make simply because of the idiocy promoted here. In the first 10 minutes the speaker agrees that he advocates for no bedtime, no requirement to sit at the dinner table, no requirement to be polite, basically no expectations for the child at all. I’ve seen permissive parents like this and they raise brats.
I read his book, it was terrible, anecdotal, and dangerous due to Naval endorsing it Had Naval not posted about it on Twitter it would never go anywhere and I wouldn’t criticize it He’s essentially lying throughout the entire book and speaking from “his gut” It’s the only book I’ve ever given a one star review to
same with you. making claims and not giving proof beside what is an obvious dislike for naval. why should people take your words any seriously that the people you argue against?
@ I’m a HUGE fan of Naval Which is why this was so disappointing I’m not going to do a full book analysis with thumbs in a UA-cam comment section People can take my words as seriously or unseriously as they like Appeals to authority will do no good Read the book and report back
Haven’t read his book. Thanks for the assessment. I genuinely like what I hear, but acknowledge that it’s purely anecdotal and thus am skeptical that parents should take it on blindly. I’m inclined to buy and read it however.
Fair enough, the book is kinda a sequel to David Deutsch’s beginning of infinity. So I get why it would seem abhorrent to you if you haven’t read that one. But I rated it 5 stars, because I think it’s pretty good as a sequel to Beginning of Infinity.
With all due respect, this episode was pretty appalling lol. It’s the age-old practice of sacrificing your children on the alter of your beliefs while convincing yourself it’s for your kids. My parents did the same thing but instead of “sovereign kids” they called it “for God.” They insisted (and still do insist) that the neglect was good for me and the world. While justifying away any negative effects. Pretty much what I imagine these parents will do when the effects of poor diet, endless UA-cam, not being educated, not being socialized, and being raised not to accept “no” show up.
Sovereign.... Might want to research the term . Free thinking is different to Sovereign. Sovereign means you are not governed by the state, self ruling. From following you guys, seems like you all like to pay taxes... And be citizens... Don't see how non sovereigns can raise a sovereign child... Technically. Although, free thinking kids are a good start. Good for you.
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This episode is more of a debate than my usual interviews. I push back a lot. Please let me know if you like it.
I'd definitely watch you debating someone you don't agree with.
I really value your insights on dating, parenting & family & would like more debates on your journey to figure it out
did you push back cause you actually disagree or for sake of pushing back or both
It’s great the you push back a lot. Very refreshing. Keep it up Tim 👍 🎉
Parent of 2 here. Appreciate you pushing back. Had many similar questions and concerns you raised.
As a dad of 3 kids under 5 y/o, I am absolutely loving this episode!
Sounds like so much fun!! ❤
I deal with my 18 year old in exactly this manner and find that her level of thinking and problem solving and her level of self awareness tends to be higher than people my own age. I allow her to make her own choices and also allow her to suffer whatever consequences of those choices but I think the real success is that hen we discuss the consequences it is never with a see I told you so attitude but more of a how did those choices make you feel and what did you learn from those consequences and how will that change your choices in the future. I feel the principles of all of this is spot on but the hard part is the dialog that is needed between parent and child and where I feel most people will fall short as they are unable to process that extended line of thinking. This was absolutely fascinating IMO.
Yes, more doable with an 18 yr old than a 7 yr old.
I really enjoyed this thought sparring type style. I was thinking a question and Tim asked it but in a better way I would frame it. Also Felt like I was in the room with them which i imagine is a great sign for end user of a podcast. The guy came with an answer each time and it bent the way I thought. Lovely. Naval showed way more humanness than any video I’ve ever seen with him especially with him starting to get popular. It was great to see him laugh and share his philosophy and call out what he thought at first then take on the shift. I’m no where near ready to have kids but this episode is more than that. I’m only an hour in but wow this is more an exercise in how to think flexibly then anything else. Incredible.
I think this type of parenting works when the parents are emotionally intelligent, have knowledge about the world, have good habits, have good relationships themselves, good communication skills, a lot of inner work needs to be done by parents first, so the modeling becomes easier for the child and you wont have to use coercion.
🎯
But if parents lack the knowledge you describe, then their attempts to impose rules are also subject to misfire.
So adopting Taking Children Seriously over other parenting philosophies cannot be a matter of the parents needing to have domain-specific knowledge, since such ignorance is a criticism of *all* parenting approaches.
@@loganchipkin4905 you're right the children will see through their hypocrisy but following a model that has worked for many with few tweaks may be less harmfulfor the kids in such a situation. Especially in India, where we live with extended families and have elders contributing to child rearing. And both the parents are working members.
Well Said
@@CharmiShah2810 It seems to be an improvement for most families even who haven’t done the internal work (which I agree is necessary for a truly happy family, but isn’t necessary for being functional and non-chaotic). As in, there will be a lot of conflicts just like all families, but with TCS they’ll be easier to navigate for secure and insecure parents alike. (That’s not to say there aren’t even better parenting practices for happy families. I think TCS philosophy can make any given practice better, but TCS doesn’t actually consist of a practice itself so is lacking when it comes to what to do. It’s mostly an epistemological theory.)
I say this mostly out of my experience of TCS households growing up. The first generation from the 90s didn’t have the emotional and introspective knowledge we have now. I think TCS still helped them be better than they would have been otherwise. (Possibly not for everyone. Some people experienced pressure to be TCS, and maybe those people would have been better off being conventional, I don’t know. I’d need to speak to the adult kids to have a good sense of that.)
I'm now just starting the bonus section. Something I wish would have been brought up is how the normal, average, everyday person might implement this. There's a section where Naval goes on a mini-rant (rant sounds bad, but you get the gist) where he basically says the life that involves wakin up early, taking your kids to school, picking them up, doing homework, etc "sucks."
I think we ALL wish we were unscheduled and could philosophize on our computers all day long but... I bet at least 80% of people simply can't. We work. We have mortgages. We have bills. Some by choice, some by consequence, some because that's just what it takes to get by these days.
I'm planning on picking up the book. And I hope it's really clear how the average, every day person can implement this style of parenting in their family.
if others have read it or know -- I'm all ears!
Same
This was the comment I was looking for. Interesting ideas but sometimes the counter examples were a little strawman-ish. My wife and I both work, but getting our kid ready around school and bedtime isn't a fight, they don't hate it, no one hates school, etc. There's a much more mellow and decent middle ground where a lot of us exist that seemed to be ignored for the sake of making a point. That said, I'd still like to explore the practical implementation of the concepts in a more average situation.
Tim, it’s one of the best podcasts you’ve done in a long time. Great job man!
I was one of the original Taking Children Seriously kids, I’m 35 now - AMA
And thanks Aaron, Tim and Naval for the awesome discussion!
Hi Lulie. Are there any hard limits to this? I feel like the conversation does not touch on this. Like how do you define a 'child' from what age?What about rules that limit immediate harm on the life of the child? I feel like there needs to be some hard limits to some of this. Thanks.
@@thinkmyelin A parent like Aaron might be better equipped to answer the detailed practicalities of this question than me, but the short answer is: It depends what you have in mind.
There are hard limits in the same way there are for your adult friends. So, if a friend runs out into traffic and doesn’t see a car coming, you pull him back (since he wasn’t actually intending to harm himself, so he wants that kind of relationship with you). If he’s eating rather a lot of ice cream, you might ask out of surprised curiosity whether that actually makes him feel good, but you wouldn’t stop him.
The difficulty with answering this question is that it comes from the prevailing assumption that children are a different category and that your job is to shepherd them, instead of help them by their own standards. Taking Children Seriously is the view that children are full people, entitled to the same rights and respect as anyone else.
I am guessing the question behind the question is: Can this possibly be safe? What about edge cases?
On the website there are more articles dealing with edge cases. But the basic answer can be extrapolated from what Aaron describes in this episode: Interacting with the world safely is a complex problem that requires creative solutions.
@@Lulie are you significantly more well-adjusted than your peers who were not TCS?
Are you grateful for your childhood?
Is there anything you wish your parents did differently?
Do you recall a cognitive process or framework that you started to develop on your own to handle life’s decisions?
This philosophy is harder to integrate when you’re starting down the track for whatever reason. Worth the effort.
Children raised with such values develop a strong sense of their rights and obligations because of implicit expectation. May I suggest you refer to The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff.
Pioneers are not intimidated by moral versus scientific arguments and evidence and would not be pioneers if they constrained themselves to the publication of the latter.
In any case how do we feel about referring to the science when we legislated against husbands hitting wives?
Once you become aware of the essential foundations for emotional well-being it all becomes a puzzle worth sorting and completing. Each person’s process is unique and involves knowing and possibly healing one’s own emotional heritage in order to find and create one’s path.
Thank you for shining light. I hope it inspires many.
thanks for bringing attention this. tim has a knack for opening new perspectives. great format too. thanks for shedding light.
I have listened 90% of all your podcast.
This is by far the best episode I have listened. Not because I have kids and I discovered something new (partially maybe) but the format.
Very controversial topic being interrogated by two intellectuals.
Thank you 🙏
Hearing Naval Ravikant speak is nothing less hearing a holy scripture and scientific paper at the same time.
Thank you for bringing him again Tim!
Fantastic episode Tim and Naval! Halfway through his book now
OMG this is gold - thank you Tim , Naval and Aaron ❤
This content is incredibly refreshing. Tim asks about the data and as psychologist and human reprogrammed for many years I can tell you we have massive data for generations of people that doing things the other way is incredibly traumatizing and we have all the data we need….think about what humans are trying to do when they finally step into growing themselves and working on themselves…they work to finally be who they really are and to be free…instead of being programmed into slaves who lives under authoritarian rule that stays in their programming long after they leave home, the can be raised as sovereign free citizens of the world and that will stop al the freaking trauma created by the other system that is nothing more than a top down template of government rule that effectively conquers and domesticated people into slaves which they tend to live out their entire lives into the grave…freedom is what people seek and they should have it from the beginning…I can tell you that I was smarter than both of my parents when I was young and just wanted the to trust me as a sovereign being who had wisdom that would’ve guided us through many things and instead like all kids I was thought of as a lower, second class citizen and they both never let me co-lead our family as a free being and they both ended up programming me into someone that spent years having to reprogram myself from the trauma of that awful authoritarian rule that was domesticating me out of the intelligence and intuition I was born with until you barely know who you are. WE have the data..a mass population of sick and traumatized people who can barely function in teh requirements of this world and operated in empowerment. They don’t kenos how to achieve freedom because they were prisoners as children and even though the are technically free they are mostly still afraid of their parents and still suffering from every traumatic blow to their nervous system and their psyche of being treated as slaves to a certain way of being that technically crushed their very soul and in this modern world we can see that we are paying the price for it with a broken population that can barely function and is trying to figure out who they really are. This work is on track…I can tell you that we have plenty of data on raising children as slaves to a system even though it doesn’t work so why do we need 20 years more of some study to try something new….how much worse can it be than what we’ve done to children as we can see all the injured adult children of the world still having to recover from what happened to them and when you allow people to be free you’re operating in a higher frequency intention. Please trust this wisdom and let the powerful beings that kids are be free to be who they are instead of suppressing their power and then expecting them to be empowered later on when they will end up afraid on their own shadow as much as they became afraid of mom and dad.
We brought up our two kids in the "unschooling" philosophy, inspired by John Holt. And we would not change anything of significance if we had to do it again. Things have changed a lot in the last 20 years, making unschooling even MORE relevant. Schools have frankly become baby-sitting institutions, where "learning" is a by-product if there is any. Also, personal learning platforms (UA-cam, Khan Academy etc.) have become enormously more effective. I am looking forward to listening to this episode.
Loved this format, Tim!
Though I don’t buy into these radical ideas 100%, it’s very interesting to listen to this conversation. There’re bits that make sense. Thanks for sharing!
The interesting part about this, what so many people fail to think through, is that philosophies like this and how a lot of people publicly raise their children on social media and the advice that people give, there is no evidence long-term that these things are correct. We don’t have a 30, 40, 50 yr old person that we can look to as the end result of these type of things. However, the idea of fostering your child’s curiosity is essential. It is our job as parents to allow their natural talents to come out in a world that wants to make everybody the same.
Having two young kids, your recent pods have been perfect for me, ty Tim! Can you please try something different and get one with Stupple and Dr. Becky, that would be classic !!!
Thank you for this convo!!!
You living the truth is the best teaching for your kid. Lets not overcomplicate it. Thanks for the debate.
I would advise a lot of caution for parents/dads leaning into this . I personally WAS in favor of “free range” style parenting that Aaron speak to but it can backfire down the line . Don’t forget that his oldest is 7 yrs old- so the experiment really needs to play out and see how this ends up long term -
I wouldn’t expect the author to willingly publicly embarrass himself if he did turn out to be wrong. We’ll likely never know.
How can it backfire? Genuinely curious
@@zblusin so many ways....bad health, bad teeth, snobby children that don't respect you in anyways and when you try to step in after not stepping in for so long they start to hate you and don't listen to you.
@@zblusBad habits and addiction from young brain exposure to modern hyperstimulating activities and food
Wow, that's quite a trailer. Very much looking forward to watching this one. Thank you Tim for the fantastic work you've been doing over the years and for keeping up with a remarkable level of exigence and excellence. With much appreciation, Leo
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself ~ Kahlil Gibran
These two guys approach this topic of raising children from such an intellectual and academic angle, while at the same time falling short based on their own admission.
And, you make it all about YOU; what YOU should do, how YOU should react or respond, what YOU find difficult, so that, when the child turns out a well adjusted adult you have people say: YOU have done a good job!
The way these guys talk about raising children makes it something you ‘achieve’. Well done, pat on the back, Victoria Cross, Golden Globe reward, write a book about it, spread the word and be considered an ‘Expert’ on the topic, get speaking engagements and be interviewed at Writers’ Week, be invited by Dr. Phil….
I appreciate men, but the way these men are TALKING Tim, is getting my dander up.
Raising children is life, is organic, is very individual (also per family), it is a constant back-and-forth movement between the parent and the child, between one’s own mind and heart and one’s social environment, and something called love that is hard to define….
and really, that is what they show, whether they’re aware of it or not!
As parents, we get to curate our kids environment. If parents only serve balanced, healthy, nutritious meals that becomes the norm - not a rule. If parents don’t purchase TVs and iPads, low screen time becomes the norm - not a rule. You don’t have to be a gatekeeper if there’s nothing to gatekeep.
Buuuut how will they ever learn about the “real world”? If they are curious to try things outside the curated environment, let them. But they need to finance it and make it happen on their own. Parents aren’t obligated to be suppliers of their kids every wish and desire.
I worked in a hospital for four years as a nurse.
That's where i got all my diseases and had my mental break down.
No thank you. Never again. Wanted to help people and then i needed help. It always been my dream job working with doctors.
I would want to hear from parents with adult “children” who were brought up this way. As with all parenting wisdom, I need to see outcomes not just outtakes….even based on life experience
😂 my mom did this with me. Its called not giving AF about your kids.
Just look at modern day zoomers. They have no moxy, social skills or grit. Popper was the architect of modern wokism and open borders, cultural genocide.
Mom of 4 here - 3 have launched and our youngest will launch soon. It's my first time hearing the term TCS but we raised our kids similarly. (I grew up in a different environment so it took me a long time to wrap my brain around what I initially wrote off as highly questionable.) I enjoyed this discussion. I agree with much of the theory, but we adapted as our kids got older and we lived & learned.
Mahalo for this conversation! Eye opening regarding how we learn as we develop and the challenge of raising little humans and in some respects on a larger scale: the concepts of influence, cooperation, coercion, behavior change. Knowledge as a form of constraints = timestamp 00:52:32 🤯🤙💪👍
I’m a father of 2. A 3.5 year old and a 9 month old. I’m 20 min into this and it’s most idealistic/ untenable parenting strategy of all time 😂 il check back in as they explain more
Question for Naval re finding a partner as an introvert.
> "I like to be alone in cities"
This REALLY resonates with me.
I'm a slow thinker. An introvert. I also have leadership responsibilities. I enjoy being outgoing and have interesting conversations.
What is the story behind how you met your wife?
Finding a partner with these qualities is a challenge.
if your children are 7 or under then why are they eating junk food? they are not the ones doing the shopping...
I absolutely love when Naval takes over the podcast
Do a pod with the wives! And make it an actual debate with someone like Dr Becky Kennedy.
I love dads having conversations about parenting! This was a great conversation and I wish I could have been a part of it. 😊
Thank you so much
Thank you
Sleep science is really clear. Consistency is key. That part of the discussion (mainly in the after discussion) about winging it or that there are not clear rules to sleep hygiene ring false with the circadian rhythm science. Just because one ignores or fails to learn about sleep science doesnt mean there are not clear and obvious solutions to good sleep hygiene.
I’m about halfway through the pod (started on Spotify) and my takeaway so far is:
1. The underlying principles, I mostly agree with
2. But I don’t think the means of getting there (at least the ones presented) are necessary.
Can you explain why it isn't necessary and what is the alternative getting to the same idea?
@@c.m.1248 you can teach kids to follow their passions and explore their creativity, with boundaries, rules, and constraints. I have personally experienced it and I have many other parents in my life with well-adjusted kids who have constraints and boundaries for their kids.
I also like feel good philosophies.
Tim: where's the data?
Guy: hey here's the philosophy.
There are many fundamental questions we cannot answer by appealing to data. For instance, the issue of slavery was not a matter of data.
@loganchipkin4905 we have plenty of metrics and research into parenting styles. We have longitudinal research up the wazoo. If you're in psych or behavioral econ you can spend your entire career studying nothing else. Even if you throw all the legit research out and simply resorted to demographically matched case reports (which I generally hate for anything other than a vague, sense of ephemeral vibes) at the very least you could say "here are how x y and z sunsets who report a b and c parenting styles in their childhood felt about those styles relative to their perception of peers experience of alternative parenting styles."
If you can 30 hours straight reading the last ten years of research into anything "hey man here's the philosophy again" or "ah but how do we actually determine if anything is good or bad before coming to agreement about how any other thing can be determined to good or bad and what does that mean ad regress infinitum" are not legitimate responses to "hey is there data." "I don't know or care I'm just into the philosophy" would be fine. Arguing against a data-driven approach (as if data and philosophy are mutually exclusive, or pretending parental ethics can be influenced by subjective preference and experience but not by data) isn't.
@@loganchipkin4905 hey Logan. I saw your name on the book.
I think Aaron made a big mistake in his book by putting the persuasive philosophical arguments at the end.
Most casual readers will read the first chapter about how his kids are gobbling down ice cream, then immediately tune out. Hence the terrible goodreads reviews.
In the second edition, please consider reformatting the book to put the rationale earlier than the examples. And consider putting it through some beta readers who are regular people. Not critical rationalists.
Just my 2 cents.
Revolutionary research
You mean treat them like human with agency (with guardrails) because they’re becoming one.
loved it
To Naval: if you want to no have to coerce them to learn math and enjoy it, I've found that connecting abstract maths to the real world helps to make it concrete and useful in a fun and creative way. I.e. teaching the Pythagorean theorem to make a garden bed. Or building any number of small things or upgrading their current objects they own.
Math staying in the abstract is difficult for little kids and unenjoyable. Hence the common refrain or thought "I'm never going to use this". Well, show them how to use it and become builders. Will also boost their self assurance.
Some Taking Children Seriously (TCS) ideas-like problem-solving together, cutting down on punishments, and genuinely listening to kids-are in line with what research calls autonomy-supportive or authoritative parenting. But if you look at complete TCS (no set bedtimes, no limits on junk food, no rules at all), that’s way beyond the usual evidence-based approach. Realistically, TCS is more of a radical moral stance saying “all coercion is automatically bad,” so it ends up brushing off loads of developmental psychology findings.
From the standpoint of typical child psychology, that’s a major overcorrection. Kids absolutely do need some structure and guidance to develop well, and TCS tends to underestimate that. Sure, emphasizing empathy and autonomy is great, but tossing out almost every boundary doesn’t match what actual research supports.
Great points. Got me to think and children are not exposed to the consequences of the real world at least so early, so there is no corrective/ feedback mechanism from the world. If you as a adult do not work, you'd be out of a job, but a kid watches screen all day, food still gets on their plates. In fact I believe this causes the exact opposite lesson to be learnt in their heads
When he started talking about school being a prison of bullies it was all over - how do kids build the resilience to deal with bullies if they spend all their time with their family? How do they navigate relationships when they have their first crush? Saying kids will get their social exposure from the surrounding neighbours is bullshit because they will choose to stay inside and watch UA-cam all day according to this philosophy. Wait till they became teenagers and it will be a serious shock to these guys.
Faaaacts! I went to a private Christian school all the way up until my junior year of high school, and let me tell you-talk about a culture shock! That’s when I realized I had *zero* survival skills because I’d been raised in a bubble my whole childhood. Suddenly, I was thrown into the real world with no idea what to do or how to navigate it. This is exactly why this “free-range” philosophy is so dangerous. I’m a fan of David Deutsch too, but when it comes to his ideas about TCS, I just can’t take him seriously (pun intended)-especially since he’s never even had kids himself!
The fact that the kids aren’t even invited as guests here to speak for themselves says all I need to know about this philosophy. If we must take children seriously, then do so by letting speak for themselves so we can all take their message seriously. I love Naval, but he is off on this one a little. IMO. I would avoid extremes. Extreme control or extreme freedom isn’t good. Balance is important as a parent.
Ironic how the same folks who celebrate James Clear when he teaches millions of people that Systems >> training also bristle against instilling systems in the most important people to them in the world.
The difference they're pointing out is that people coerce children into doing things (supposedly for their own good a lot of the time), whereas they would instil the idea or knowledge in an adult because the adult would be treated as equal. These are not same thing.
I'd love to get my hands on "the 20 or 30 books that matter".
Wilhelm Reich and A.S. Neill have spoken eloquently on this topic. Summerville certainly is a light house in this storm of confusion.
Can't be forced to be interested, but what about memetic desire of wanting things just because others want it?
I've only just started but one of my issues with this is that I don't want my children to struggle with issues that I have not been able to overcome. I struggle to not use screens excessively and using nicotine, so how can I provide a framework for my children to not have these same problems I can't fix in myself?
We address this in the book :) There's no way to *guarantee* that your kid won't face such issues. So you want to develop a relationship with your kid such that if and when he does face an issue, he is completely comfortable coming to you with it.
Compare that with current parenting practices - kids, fearful that their parents will discover their secret, work to hide their issue and seek other people (older kids, strangers on the internet, etc.) for advice.
Great advice. I agree that coercion doesn't work. Especially with kids. But letting the kids experience everything on their own and then make suggestions (the gloves example) is better than asking them to follow your rules. Once they realize what's best for them, you'll never have to ask them to follow any rules. The "why" is always more important than "how".
Exactly! Without the 'why', there literally can be no 'how'. For instance, if you force your kids to 'speak politely', then they miss the chance to learn which aspects of 'speaking politely' they need to subtly modify from situation to situation. Hope you like the book!
@@loganchipkin4905 This philosophy is so dangerous, I can’t even. Think about it-when you learn to drive, there’s a clear set of rules to keep you safe. They teach you how and why to follow those rules, but the rules themselves are non-negotiable.
The same goes for parenting. Rules need to be clear and followed-simple as that. The lessons and reasoning can come later. Letting your kids “learn” by hurting themselves? That’s just absurd. If your kid doesn’t want to wear gloves, you *tell* them to put on the gloves. Period. End of story. You’re the parent. You have a fully developed prefrontal cortex for a reason-use it.
If you really want to make a point, show them a picture of frostbitten hands. Rules aren’t about controlling them; they’re about keeping them safe. That’s your job as a parent.
I agree with most of this, but I can’t get behind "free-range" parenting. It doesn’t make sense to let kids do whatever they want when they don’t yet have the skills to reason properly. Encouraging reasoning and independence is one thing, but giving them total freedom without guidance is irresponsible and even dangerous. It often leads to raising entitled kids-something we already see too much of. Children need to understand that rules exist to protect them, not to control them. You can still nurture creativity and critical thinking while setting clear boundaries.
If you choose a good school for your child, they might even enjoy that. And if they do well it can motivate them.
How do you deal with teenagers who don’t have any motivation to go to school and graduate without coercing , instead just sleep in
I find the example of comparing feminism with offering kids agency really interesting. As well as comparing to bossing around and ordering kids to comply with whatever the parent's belief is correct and authority (parent, govt, school system, cultures) brainwashing or conditioning them in fearing authority and believing without critical thinking.
Respect for the innate intelligence of an organisim (kids), allowing to explore and exercise one's agency, understanding the impact of power structures (parents vs kids, big vs small, strong vs weak, feeder vs being fed, resourceful vs lack in resource or dependent)
I havent finished the whole episode and have read others concern about in what environment, resources and family structures can this work? I believe trauma and lack of safety and insecure attachment styles, exposure to violence, isolation abuse and emotional neglect are more detrimental for kids than a lot of other things. Im not completely in favor but sees theoretically there are ideas that makes a lot of sense.
Just because science has proved something or something is long standing doesnt mean it will work for all population. Besides even in research it will tell you the likelihood of something working but foesnt necessarily guarantee 100% success or outcome, therefore we can never know if our kids falls in the group of majority or outliars.
I am not a statistics, and also believe science hasnt and cant fully make sense of life, therefore I wont just rely on clinical research for all decisions.
When thry said their kids can access UA-cam for endless hours, I also think about if they are on kids mode or not, and whatnif they learnt to access adult version and all sort of crazy harmful ideas on youtube? If no one is censoring their content?
I love this!! I have found myself doing this with my son naturally as it feels most in alignment to allow him his sovereignty. Also, a lot of the things we think we need to enforce on our kids has no basis anyway. This will be controversial to say, but tooth issues aren't caused by a deficiency in tooth brushing, or too much sugar. German New Medicine blows this out of the water, as it does with germ theory, same with nutrition dogma.
What is wrong with germ theory of disease? I assume you are saying that microbes are not the full story of contagious disease spreading, but surely you’re not questioning that it’s a good idea for a physician to wash thoroughly between performing an autopsy and performing a surgery.
@weestro7 I certainly did not say that. I can highly recommend Daniel Roytas's book Can You Catch a Cold?
I was raised with “free range “ approach like the one he mentions in the book.
I am reasonable successful but, I do not think this approach works for everyone. Actually, I believe in a competitive world you should teach/ learn the right way most of the time. Smart Adults will teach you the best way, rather than learning from scratch all the time. Otherwise, most of the time you will get outcompete at the highest level. There is definitely a bigger downside.
The last section about social media is definitely wrong. Both naval and Aaron has no idea what the consumer psyche is. It also appears that they don’t understand the value of playing sports. It’s not a status game at all. It’s about building resilience, team work, leadership and confidence.
Wonderful. Just about the editing on this podcast: Whoever's editing the audio is using the "gate" or expander way too heavily. It takes out all of the natural mouth noises and breaths to the point that it sounds unnatural.
Aaron is trying to teach his kids to learn empirically. Which is fine, but we as parents are also responsible to teach our kids. Learning from others is less painful than learning by mistake. Although is really difficult to learn in somebody else skin
Where can I find the full transcript, Tim?
“Don’t bother children when they’re skateboarding“ - Jordan B Peterson
I see Naval is in a video, I click
If you make the time to parent this way I think it could be effective, but many well meaning parents will adopt this kind of strategy and fall short how Naval and Aaron implement it and then leave their kids totally unequipped to handle the real world.
The biggest problem I have here is not with what they’re proposing, but the way they are framing parents that aren’t TSC advocates. They seem to suggest that all parents not following TSC are authoritarian tyrants. It’s uncharitable to say those doing “normal” parenting don’t talk to their kids with respect and don’t want to teach their kids the ability to problem solve, and to understand reasoning over rules. I think they are strawmanning non-TSC parenting.
I took some lessons but i have disagreements. I think rules help reinforce and is a beginning phase of teaching. A child doesn't want to brush their teeth and they don't understand the consequences, but they dont need to understand when they are really young. You are just teaching them this is a normal pattern. This is part of a healthy routine. Same as teaching a child to say thank you for someone holding the door for them. But i totally understand the concept of letting kids learn certain things on their own (minus any danger). I also don't agree with yelling at your kids. I think you can do things with compassion. You can say "no" about candy but at the same time console them and help them understand their emotions.If i left a bag of any candy out for my daughter, she would eat it al and ask for more LOL.
Yes. This is good in theory. I need to see kids raised this way and how they turned out as adults. I would take this guy seriously were he a grand father, patriarch with amazing grand children and great grand children who are successful and still love him.
Instead, this guy is running an experiment, instead of waiting for the results, he’s here already spreading it. Children are not little adults.. they are children. TCS shouldn’t mean everything goes.
How do you ask a child to do something without them thinking that they can’t say no
Parents are meant to be guardrails to life that is why we are their keepers. We have loved experience and we know better. A child is not going to know brocolli is best for him until he is 16 with a giant gut and just diagnosed with diabetes.
I see some beneficial aspects of this parenting style but I found myself pointing out many, many holes in Aaron’s thoughts and examples as he went through this conversation.
Tread lightly. This is kind of something reserved for high IQ and potential children. The huge majority of “unschooled children” get addicted to drugs and go to prison. It still requires a lot of time and a very intelligent caregiver.
Source: I made it up
@@bryce3323I don't have specific data, but my wife has been a public defender for over 10 years and nearly all of her clients have been “unschooled”. I don't know exact percentages, but in my experience the kids that were hardly in school did not do so well in life. Clearly that is significantly different than what they are talking about. But I would worry about someone listening to this philosophy, misinterpreting it and just letting their children be completely free-range without educating them.
@ Do you think her clients had parents who were listening to the Tim Ferriss show in their free time? I'd bet the "unschooling" her clients received was neglect and abuse. Much different than what's being described here.
@ 100% agree.
@@bryce3323 but, I could imagine someone hearing this as a pop concept and using it as justification for their neglect.
I wish Naval was my father growing up
The other guy… not so much lol
Timestamps?
Make them
I’ll start:
0:00 begin
3:03:00 end
Please build off this
Part 2 should include "regular" parents asking situational questions. E.g. my 8 year old forgets the stove is on and will go into the other room.
Still struggling how to raise my kids😂😂
You know what is hell? You are trying to do this, yet your wife is super anxious and has a ton of rules. :) Secret, then they only listen to you. ;)
To be fair, this wasn't a debate. A debate would have involved including an expert or two on the topic of parenting under the traditional approach to counter some of this lunacy. I appreciate Tim's attempts at pushing back, but he is not a parent so couldn't push back based on real world experience m, and most everything they said was anecdotal and not informed by long-term outcomes. Nor does it acknowledge their extreme privilege and how their experience may not apple to others. I wanted to like this episode but as I got more annoyed the more it went on.
Well put . They both don’t have kids that have grown into middle or highschool. I would be very careful leaning into this
It's a moral argument, we dont wait to see the repercussions of freeing slaves and then decide what to do. Owning humans is wrong, stifling people is wrong.
We've already seen repercussions of eating a crappy diet, screen addiction, and addiction to validation en masse scale via social media in the name of a hit of dopamine.
@@LATriBri And yet it continues DESPITE parents knowing this and trying to stop their kids from it. All of society wants to stop kids from becoming addicts and yet it happens anyway.
That's like saying that people still smoke despite our efforts to curb smoking.
My parents took me seriously, by accident.
❤❤
Also should have 16-18 year old kids talk about this. Get it from their perspective.
I INSTANTLY know someon is full of ish when they claim an ABSOLUTE TRUTH when speaking about psychology. This guys BS indicator went off when he told naval "That method of parenting is incorrect because....". Like dude.The VERY FIRST RESPONSE from you to a question when talking to someone as smart as naval should NEVER BE an absolute lol. There is NO WAY to prove that!
I think Aaron made a big mistake in his book by putting the persuasive philosophical arguments at the end.
Most casual readers will read the first chapter about how his kids are gobbling down ice cream, then immediately tune out.
I hope this message gets to you Aaron. In the second edition, please reformat the book to put the rationale earlier than the examples. And consider putting it through some beta readers who are regular people. Not critical rationalists.
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. We actually played around with the order! We figured it'd be better to hit the reader with tangible examples *first* and explain the underlying philosophy (as well as the four major ways by which rules-based parenting backfires) after that.
@ sounds good. Hope the book gets you everything you were hoping for . I for one enjoyed it
I've seen parents try this approach and it backfires very quickly. I have kids who had to deal with kids who have been parented with this approach, they are socially awkward, they could be aggressive and because of this type of philosophy, parents act as full-blown sociopaths who don't have any regard for other kids and people around them.
I highly doubt they were doing TCS.
I think the book is a bit extreme. I have savages I can't let them free 😂
Extremism unto itself is no vice.
@@loganchipkin4905 logan in the comments droppin bangers
Provocative discussion. Think the truth is local and somewhere in the middle
Naval is a superhuman
❤️
I have questions. Who in this family has ADHD, ODD, (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance)? Such techniques might help cope with challenges of raising ND children, but it will only take the child so far. NT children will loose out on a lot of development potential through this approach.
Try raising an AuDHD, ODD neurodivergent boys who already believe in 100% in this philosophy. But they take everything to the 10th degree and take over everything.
Haha this dude has 5 kids yes, but all below 7 years old. Take his take with a grain or salt.
This was disappointing. Tim Ferriss, please be more selective with your interviewees. You ask great questions, but they’re wasted on guests like this.
This was the only podcast of Tim’s I’ve turned off in nearly 10 years of listening. As a father of two, and a very dedicated one too, this was just too much to handle. Such a ridiculous way to raise a child to be a good and successful human.
Good as determined by whom? Successful as determined by whom?
My mother more or less raised me this way, at least once I got to 10yo. Basically telling me what she thinks I should do, then letting me do what I want and suffer my own consequences. It’s really not that crazy of an approach, especially once they get beyond 10.
disagree. Hearing these views challenges me to rethink why we parent the way we do and become more conscious about the choices we're making.
If you are that convinced or religiously convinced your beliefs about raising your kids can not dare be challenged I don't know if you are Tim's fan group. As an audience of Tim You must be willing to question your belief system specially the ones you hold dear to yourself. I have 3 kids too
10 minutes in. I usually give discussions like this more of a chance, but I can’t continue to listen. What an idiot. You are the adult. Guide your child and don’t leave them adrift with endless possibilities. Children want loving parental guidance, not permissive weak spined roommates.
bot
Dude, are you seriously trolling everyone’s comments. Get a life.
@ Not trolling or a bot. This is my only comment on the video, which I was motivated to make simply because of the idiocy promoted here. In the first 10 minutes the speaker agrees that he advocates for no bedtime, no requirement to sit at the dinner table, no requirement to be polite, basically no expectations for the child at all. I’ve seen permissive parents like this and they raise brats.
My apologies @LP-dc7fh, that response was for @Alexwindover.
@@LP-dc7fh great. just testing. ive seen parents do the opposite and raise brats.....what do we do now?
I read his book, it was terrible, anecdotal, and dangerous due to Naval endorsing it
Had Naval not posted about it on Twitter it would never go anywhere and I wouldn’t criticize it
He’s essentially lying throughout the entire book and speaking from “his gut”
It’s the only book I’ve ever given a one star review to
same with you. making claims and not giving proof beside what is an obvious dislike for naval. why should people take your words any seriously that the people you argue against?
@ I’m a HUGE fan of Naval
Which is why this was so disappointing
I’m not going to do a full book analysis with thumbs in a UA-cam comment section
People can take my words as seriously or unseriously as they like
Appeals to authority will do no good
Read the book and report back
Haven’t read his book. Thanks for the assessment. I genuinely like what I hear, but acknowledge that it’s purely anecdotal and thus am skeptical that parents should take it on blindly. I’m inclined to buy and read it however.
Any examples of the lies?
Fair enough, the book is kinda a sequel to David Deutsch’s beginning of infinity. So I get why it would seem abhorrent to you if you haven’t read that one. But I rated it 5 stars, because I think it’s pretty good as a sequel to Beginning of Infinity.
With all due respect, this episode was pretty appalling lol. It’s the age-old practice of sacrificing your children on the alter of your beliefs while convincing yourself it’s for your kids. My parents did the same thing but instead of “sovereign kids” they called it “for God.” They insisted (and still do insist) that the neglect was good for me and the world. While justifying away any negative effects. Pretty much what I imagine these parents will do when the effects of poor diet, endless UA-cam, not being educated, not being socialized, and being raised not to accept “no” show up.
Sovereign.... Might want to research the term . Free thinking is different to Sovereign. Sovereign means you are not governed by the state, self ruling. From following you guys, seems like you all like to pay taxes... And be citizens... Don't see how non sovereigns can raise a sovereign child... Technically. Although, free thinking kids are a good start. Good for you.