I think a huge problem with the original video is that he called it rebalances but his intent was seemingly just ideas he had for fun...which are not the same
It's not just that. there are a lot of comments throughout the video that contribute to frustration of the original video. He did tone that down in the follow-up, so I think he realized that as well.
At points, yes. But to be fair, there are some good ideas here. I find the ideas that are objectively buffs but don't actually fix the problem more baffling, personally.
I feel that there are some nice ideas here, but they get overshadowed by the more ridiculous concepts and the weird inconsistencies between the script and the actual changes.
It also didn't account for the fact WHY certain weapons are the way they were. For example, Vitasaw (before the organ system): it used to be very unfair because if 1 medic uses it, the other has to, otherwise they'll be at a disadvantage when they die.
As i had unpopular comment under original video, bleed can very potentially replace melee random crit 1 shot kill that is. Maybe roll them the same way, but instead of gamble 1 shot a dying wish tainted murder seems more appropriate
@@ammi5311 As a medic I'm all for exchanging random crits with random bleed. At least with bleed you have time to react, especially when it's something that's unaccounted for by both you and the attacker. I never understand why TF2 players keep saying TF2 is a skill-based game when you can randomly roll triple, no-fall off dmg and nuke someone. It's like playing cards but you randomly draw 3 cards instead of 1.
Honestly speaking if valve did decide to give all sniper rifles tracers then 100% the Sydney sleeper should be the exception. Because its weak and because you cant tracer a dart
Sydney Sleeper is banned in comp 6s because the ability to coat jarate, a very strong debuff from distance, makes medics now die even faster without the sniper needing skills to land a headshot.
"A novice can be well observed, a professional can have a limited view" is such a good statement. This is why balancing purely around a competitive community is a bad idea; them being pros at your game does NOT mean they know what's best for it.
Vacc defo needs to be nerfed or reworked and bringing up fucking melee damage as a counterpoint is ridiculous which just leaves unpleasant whiplash since most other comments you make are quite reasonable
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I fought a Vacc the other day on Thunder mountain and he alone was able to lock down the 2nd choke on stage 2, and his team kept corner-peaking. Before this I legit thought Vacc is weak in chokes due to all the spam, but honestly most of the time at chokes you rarely take fire dmg because nobody is crazy enough to charge in a choke blindly as a pyro. So that only leaves 2 dmg types which is much easier to manage. Vacc has this issue where the skill ceiling is insane but once you reach it the thing just becomes the most toxic thing in the game.
@@theotv5522TF2 has that problem a lot. Valve underestimate the time investment people would put into classes and playstyles and, what do you know, some things become stupidly overpowered if you put a few hundred or thousand hours into them! They made a whole class around that concept.
6:51 Honestly, as someone whose favourite class is Heavy, as much as I wholeheartedly agree that people who propose that a speed buff rework for the Natasha are missing the point... I also have to point out that the uses that you listed are exactly what people hated about the gun right now.
Back then you can completely negate the slow debuff from it by spamming A+D (side stepping basically), but when Valve tried to remove the stun from the Sandman, they broke the Natasha, so now people are feeling the full effect of the Natasha. Just a little bit of TF2 lore I wanna share.
I like to believe that the videogames used as background footage have a direct relationship to what is being talked about. I just can't really get it out of my head that Scout segment is hell, and the final segment is Buckshot Roulette after all the madness. Even if the connection is tenuous.
You are correct that the gameplay wasn't random. Although the connections with Scout and Medic aren't quite right. Care to guess why I used the gameplay I did? I'm curious what your guesses are.
I do have to put notes on the natasha, the dmg penalty really means nothing on it as you can close the distance on your enemies rather than having to poke corners. Heavy is still the highest dps in the game wnd even at midrange will chew through players even with a 30% dmg penalty. Playing on the server you really felt the movement increase not only helped you dodge players but get ramp up much faster and even chase players trying to escape. The only thing thats bad about it now is the while active health drain. The rev speed is fine since you dont want a fast rev and fast movement speed heavy bullying you. If the health drain was while reved instead of while active it would be much more fun to play with and allows it to be its own thing risking your tankiness for speed. Comp players on the video mostly said that it having no speed penalty was actually broken so yeah it was very overpowered before the nerfs
I propose it follow the similar design at that point which is baby-face blaster. Retaliate reduced heavy's gained speed while he earned it back with damage delt positive feedback is a much proper drawback
Providing you tools to prevent taking damage, then making you take damage sounds kinda odd. Especially in the context of the weapon being used in active combat.
I, personally, _love_ long-form content, such as Blue's 2:27:27 reaction, your 1:29:13 analysis, etc. I like this because I love listening to people talk about a subject related to what I'm doing, so I'll play videos just like this when I'm in Hammer++ working on maps and gamemodes, when I'm not playing with friends, etc. _This is probably because I'm autistic and TF2 is my favorite video game, but much love nonetheless!_
I really hope to see you do more TF2 videos, one of my favourite things about you is how interesting you are to listen to and how knowledgeable you are when talking about dead rising and even this video! Also kudos to you for not hating on Grouch, by acknowledging how he's taken this criticism politely and constructively and to be nice to him. I like that.
8:00 This is a surprise to me. Grouch was NOT the first person to suggest inverting the Natascha (from slowing down enemies to speeding up the user), it was actually a very popular suggestion among several content creators. So it's a bit of a shock to have it finally tested out and discover that it just isn't healthy or balanced
If they officially give the sniper rifles tracers I'd rather they be proper bullet tracer bolts and not the Machina laser tracer that way you actually have to use your brain to triangulate where the sniper is.
I find it funny that he didnt even spare The Classic from the sniper rifle nerfs. Wouldn't it make perfect sense for the already bad weapon to not get changes? The classic is already meant to be a callback to the old sniper. Why not have it be the one exempt from these changes instead of the heatmaker?
Because everyone who tried to use it and even the community gaslit others saying it's very good. It created a Mandela effect on the weapon, and people who don't play Sniper would believe is real. Kinda like how if you tell a non-TF2 player that the Mad Cap is an actual class or cosmetic/weapon, they would probably believe it.
Every time I thought I had seen the maximum extent of Grouch's dumbass balance changes, the guy managed to one up his own lunacy with every additional weapon change. Truly a remarkable feat.
You know what's even worse? His server as of date is completely empty. So chances are he stopped balancing his own ideas half way through. People like these I hate the most. They throw out half-ass ideas, ruin things, then move on.
Going to take notes again but for sniper. The ammo penalty was definitely needed for this class. In casual tf2 a good sniper can lock down an entire choke point for ages with his 25 reserve ammo. Not to mention sniper is also where the engineer is so he gets infinite ammo already from dispensers. This already known that causally nobody communicates (thx valve cause all the f2p still cant call for medic) but sniper is very hard to counter without another sniper. Spy is the only class that can somewhat get to sniper without having to sacrifice much but that is also a spy making sure they dont get spotted, actually kill the sniper, and then hope they can get out alive before the snipers team looks around. Every other class has to do way too much to kill a class that can 1 shot instant kill 5 out of the 9 classes. Whats stopping a sniper from camping near a sentry to just deny every class other than another sniper? 12 reserve ammo is more than enough to lock down a choke point but also allows breathing room. Down time on sniper is a great nerf that makes it where he is vulnerable but can still can use his team as a meat shield but also allow the other team to play the game.
Yes indeed, sniper's burst fire natural and exclusiveness to ramp up buts him in a unique place. Each ammo start from 50 damage with charge system for a 3x multiplier (150) then another 3x mechanical head shot multiplier (450) Potential of spilling 450x25=11250 across the map without resupply is absurd
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 the ammo nerf forces the sniper to be in very predictable spots more often than not. If you know where a ammo pack is or the engie has a dispenser near the back instead of higher traffic areas
@@Aegisdex hes already in very predictable spots, the actual problem is that you cant do much about him being in said predictable spot, as the reason why hes there so often is because that spot is really really good. i can tell you by memory every place a sniper can be on upward, you go play a match and hell be there guaranteed. most of sniper hate stems from payloads overwhelming popularity, and payload maps are built around a track so they tend to be very very long, thus creating huge sightlines. you dont see anyone complaining about sightlines on a map like steel because its very condensed and doesnt have unreasonably huge fighting areas basically, all the payload maps you love have horrid sightlines. upward, badwater, borneo, swiftwater, pier
I think it’d be cool if the Sharpened Volcano Fragment had fire resistance and did more damage while you’re taking fire damage, with a lingering effect for a few seconds after the damage stops. A tool for the Pyro vs Pyro matchup if you wanna keep a flare gun but also a weapon that’d pair with detonator jumping as a combat opener.
The main thing with the Kunai + Diamondback is that, yes, in a match with completely competent teammates their flaws come out in full force and actually act to balance the weapons (which is why the Kunai remains unbanned in all competitive formats, though the Diamondback is 6 feet under in both 6v6 and Highlander), but even a single sub-competent teammate can be taken advantage of to completely negate those drawbacks for no fault of your own. This is where most of the ire against those weapons come in, and why so many pub stomping rampages are noted compared to the Spy being put in a perpetual spawn timer on an Uncletopia server. Because if little Timmy running around with an unusual bought with his dad's disposable income and his back faced towards the enemy at all times gets Kunai'd, then suddenly you're left to disengage with the enemy's frontline and now have to deal with a Spy possessing 4x the overheal that can be given by a Medigun (or ~12% more than the max possible overheal compared to Stock Spy) and a free long range 102 damage chunker while retaining all of Stock Spy's capabilities. And if you take him down to half or less, but little Tommy isn't paying attention while shooting at the enemy half a map away with his minigun, then suddenly you have to fight pretty much a whole 'nother Spy who, again, still has access to all of Stock Spy's tools. For other snowball weapons like the Eyelander, the Bazaar Bargain, the Air Strike, the Frontier Justice, etc, there is still the element of punishing you for your teammate's mistakes in them as well, but even if little Timmy and Tommy get a 0:15 K:D ratio against them, there are still other elements that keep them in check compared to stock. The Eyelander and Bazaar Bargin have to get two kills in without dying to cover for their lower Health/charge rate, and the Air Strike and the Frontier Justice have to _always_ sacrifice a good chunk of damage/splash radius or clip size, respectively. So for the Kunai and Diamondback, they _should_ be changed if not just to cause less strife between teammates, but so many balance ideas just push the idea of further reducing max HP or damage inflicted when that is a lost cause. You end up with something that is either _still_ better than stock after using an incompetent teammate as fodder, or something _almost entirely_ worse than stock no matter the scenario. Or in Grouch's case, they just completely revamp the weapon, which isn't historically unprecedented for TF2, but it leaves their previous niche completely void when it _could_ work with just a bit of tweaking. A cut to cloak duration or a penalty to sapper damage are all it takes for the Diamondback and Kunai to feel like proper sidegrades even when they are used to pubstomp on an "immortal" Spy loadout.
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video during the snier section, rebalancing a weapon based on the player base's skill is a very tricky subject. I personally vote for leaving them as is for now.
Tired of this punished by your incompetence team argument. As if you supposed to not punished by lesser team in a team game. Every other thing in game can capitalise on various degrees, just that kunai does in a away you aware off. Guess what little Timmy also fed comp head random crit chance without you noticing, let alone a 0/15 KD already disabled your team's functionality by every player "falls easily to trickstab"
diamondbacks banned in 6s because they say spy cant get more than 1 kill and then get angry when he actually does get more than 1 kill with the help of crits why do you bring up the bazaar bargain, unlike every other snowball weapon, even the diamondback, it has no downside in the right hands. its the dumbest snowball weapon of them all
25:20 (aprox timestamp of an argument) I feel like learning how to play the second most powerful class in the game (mundee mc sniper) SHOULD be difficult because y know, if you are gonna be far away from everyone and instakill pepole at least it should require you to learn to position properly, be aware of players that might be flanking at you, and manage your resources instead of playing a point and click adventure with ocasional quick time events Im not calling snipers low skilled players, i just feel like to play something so powerful it should be hard to learn so you get GOOD and dominate the aspects of sniper gameplay
The Classic and Sidney Sleeper being the only rifles without tracers would actually be a pretty solid change to Sniper. Especially if it was Classic tracers instead of full tracers that are on the other guns.
While there are poor ideas suggested in his original video, the impression I got is that some people's reaction were overblown. It's good to see folks criticizing without making things personal. A well done reply video :).
I mean, i liked some of his reworks, like his sniper one, but he then does... Asinine decisions like, "hey, snipers are too oppressive and i made a change for them that brings them in line? Well, danger shield that turns sniper into scout and a frog, heatmaker is basically a base game sniper, and cozy camper gives you 40 ammo." And of course, the infamous... "Enforcer".
@@Scout-Fanfiction thank you, and also, i do agree. Some people just started hating on the guy instead of any actual criticism, like the bog standard "oooo that idea stupid."
@@CodexQuinn Most people I've watch reacting to this gave fair criticism (Blue, Jake, HiGPS) so I can't see your point. But from the sound of it seems like those aren't worth a watch if they didn't give a reason so I won't ask you who you're referring to.
So, his vitasaw change Played in his server, and it has rhe exact same issues he said the Kunai had. Medics now can tank more than they should, giving the class who can go invulnerable or give guaranteed crits for 8 seconds too much tankiness. I agree the Vitasaw needed change, but Medics getting that tanky is just unfun
That one was quite a miss. It could really be middle ground of what it used to be . Passive kept up to 20% uber, on hit doubles (40%) for short duration like 5sec, and the 140hp is fair
just on the topic of the natascha, you bring up some good points about how the its a support weapon, the changes dont work as a support weapon anymore, but you never stop to think if a class should have the ability to do the things the natascha does edit: you do the same thing with the darwins danger shield, you point out the weapon isnt useless (which is fair) but you dont question if sniper should have a more or less immunity to one of only a small handful of counterplay he has Edit 2: you do this again in your little tangent with the ambassador, you state "the stealth class doesnt get to snipe" but you dont consider how it would affect the game this video just feels like you disagreeing with grouch like he doesnt "get" tf2, and youre trying to explain it to him and dont get me wrong, i dont like grouchs ideas either, but youre not breaking down his rebalances
"The Huo-long's gimmick doesn't work because it requires you to coordinate with your Pyro, so I increased its damage at mid and long range where your ring of fire can't ignite enemies and reduced its base damage even further to compensate" is such a bizarre balance non-sequitur for me and completely set the tone for the rest of the video. The Huo-long is already situational, it's basically only useful for guarding Engi nests and pushing payload, because dispenser or cart ammo regen completely negates the ammo cost for the ring. It does need better accuracy, or reduced spin-up or to apply fire after a certain number of hits or something else to make it a worthwhile pick, but I still enjoy using it to push cart for its novelty. But I'd love to have a faster Dalokohs (as the Fishcake). Its niche is in counteracting the GRU or Eviction Notice health drain due to its temporary +50 max health, so being able to eat it faster would be a big improvement. Also, the easiest way to make the "if you equip a lunchbox item you can equip a shotgun" happen imo is if you made the lunchbox items equippable as primaries, replacing the minigun instead of the shotgun. Last comment, I think the best way to rebalance sniper is to make all headshots do minicrits instead of crits, the way the Sydney Sleeper does, unless fully charged. That way Sniper can still do effective damage at range without being able to instantly kill almost half the roster a moment after seeing them, while still preserving the ability of Sniper to remove overhealed Heavies, Soldiers, Demos and Pyros.
the huolong isnt situational there is no situation in which it is good. no, its not good on the cart either, because the cart cant help you shake off that permanent 10% damage penalty >dalokohs should be faster no, that makes it a brainless crutch, practically an overwatch ability. the only problem it has is its pathetic healing, 350 health is no good if you cant even get to max health >sniper minicrit headshots oh my god shitters need to pipe down and stop talking about sniper
Huo-long better change would be if you can manually toggle on/off the ring of fire. And lets say if it's off, you get bonus accuracy, but when on, you get minicrits against burning players instead. The issue with faster Dalokohs (Grouch's version) is that it encourages a very cowardly play style for a class that's supposed to be the "tank" of the team. Not to mention Heavy while having a high health pool struggles to stick around for long because during team fights lots of things can chew through his 300+ overheal health, so anything that offer sustained healing will be better than having to constantly dip in and out just for a measly 50hp heal. I would prefer if it has multiple charges with each charge you eat faster, and you can activate it to consume all charges, but you eat for the same duration (or longer) with other lunchbox items. The current Dolokohs can't counteract the GRU or Eviction because that 50 max hp only translates to roughly 2 extra seconds with GRU (which is minimal). I would much prefer you eat the Steak and get the bonus move speed for roll outs, then rely on your med for heals to compensate for no sandwiches (this is a common strat for comp heavy in 6s). Lastly, while I hate snipers, someone pointed out how, similar to spies, snipers has to kill 2 enemies to equal out him playing sniper. This is because he does not have field presence and is not an active target during team fights. Compared to...lets say a soldier. Soldier is always at the front, so enemies will be constantly shooting at him while he return fire. With sniper, he essentially forces his team to fight with 1 less player until he gets a kill or 2. So nerfing sniper is actually a very difficult process that I don't think anyone can fix. Nerf him too hard and he becomes worthless, but his current state is also very annoying and has little counters.
7:35 I think its more of the fact that he's heard so many complaints about people DESPISING slowdown in TF2's fast paced movement game. So he got rid of it and made heavy faster which I think is fine, I specifically hate using Natascha because of the slowdown, I feel like an ass using it. His next video's rebalance is downright atrocious. I feel like a buff the Brass Beast could use is a knockback resistance when active, it's supposed to be his heaviest mini gun I feel like it should act like one. OR just make the downsides less worse by making both go to 40% instead of 50% spin up and 60% slower movement, that way their not AS bad as people say they are but still have those downsides be noticeable. The best thing we can do for the Huo Long Heater is to make the 10% damage penalty ONLY affect non burning targets so that way when they are on fire the 25% damage bonus isn't partially negated because of the downside. While I don't have issues with the ammo drain cause I've gotten used to it there are other players who can't watch their ammo so maybe reduce it to 3 ammo drain.
tf2s not a fast paced movement game and the natascha isnt particularly annoying to fight. the real problem with it is that its a useless counterintuitive crutch the huolong is such a boring weapon, the 1 new thing it has and its something heavy cant even utilize. shouldve been a firework launcher like intended
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 "tf2 not fast paced movement game" I think you and I aren't playing the same game. There's a reason why there's more scout, soldier, and demoman mains than heavy mains in the game. Scout's fast running, Soldier with rocket jumps, Demoman with sticky jumping.
Grouch says that heavy doesn't have a "true" subclass and then says engi has battle engi which isn't a "true" subclass either technically also as a sniper main who enjoys the classic grouch should have give it silent shot along with the Sydney sleeper instead of the hitmans heartmaker(I just wanted to say I'm not the best sniper and thus adding tracers to every rifle would feel insanely hard to play as now newer players will have an impossible time playing the game). Grouch is also just being rude to people who enjoy the caber by saying "caber users are not normal sane people" Grouch also changes weapons he finds boring which is a flawed view point and should not be the way you rebalance anything in a game With the diamond back why can't spy have a power gun because yes I understand that the diamond back is annoying to fight against but it doesn't make sense that the diamond back shouldn't be a good gun and instead it should be pretty gimmicky and not very good gun
With the Diamondback the complaints is you're being punished for having bad teammates. It's like imagine if you turn a corner to eat a crit rocket because earlier someone died to that soldier and now you're paying for his mistakes. Playing online with randoms already isn't very fun, seeing how people don't like to work with 1 another, or even listen to 1 another, so things like DB just crank that problem up to about 11. Funny enough the gun is fair in comp 6s because getting chainstabs isn't the point of a Spy pick, which just goes to show how different the 2 game modes are, and how different the view point of the 2 communities. Really facinating stuff.
Check the Description for a whole bunch of information. Made sure to include chapters for those who have already seen his video. The Eureka Effect was left out since he decided the idea was bad in the follow-up, and it as connected to a section like the Machina was. I'll update this comment as needed.
22:25 i think that if one or two snipers is stopping twelve people from making meaningful progress on the objective, that NEEDS to be temporary, if not impossible.
I think a core of the issue with 'Fat Scout' and attempts to fix it is that most shotguns excel at the same range that the minigun does. So your subclass is trying to do The Same Thing As Your Main Class.
- I actually like the chocolate bar rework but it shouldn’t replace the current version. Would be nicer as a new weapon. Would also need some number tweaks - I think the cleaners carbine change is near perfect due to the synergy it has with the mini crit stat, as well as the fun factor of turning your SMG into an assault rifle temporarily.
The issue with that chocolate bar rework is it's actually forcing heavy to constantly have to unrev his gun to dip in and out of fights constantly. And in team fights he's a massive target so that not very viable. The moment he unrev his gun you can bet at least 3 crosshairs are aimed at him since now he's an easy target. I would much prefer if the thing has multiple charges and you can use all charges at once while a single charge can be weak like Grouch's.
@@alexcrisman1954 the concept is encouraging a very cowardly Heavy play style is what I read from Grouch’s idea here. But hey everyone’s entitled to an opinion these days.
I had an idea for the Huo-Long Heater. Every ten or fifteen seconds, the Minigun can belch a ball of fire, similar to the Scorch Shot, and cause an AoE Afterburn effect on the targets within its blast radius. Also, make the fire ring a fire bubble.
The enforcer rework was actually really strong, I tried his server and every spy was using it. You don't need to hard fan, you can just time your shots to have a faster firing stock with similar damage. You do lose a bit of your range but for gunspy it's rather strong.
I will be one of pleased to see what your able to make in rebalance, as a critic you had been. Curious being would you focus on "your" personal vision, or were you interested to heard some input?
You replied to almost every single comment and none of them are readable. This feels like mashing the autosuggested words your phone keyboard gives you.
Well this was... I'll be honest, I don't know much about TF2, specifically the gameplay, I know stuff like some of the lore and the memes, but I've not played the game itself, so a lot of this went a bit over my head. But game balance is a good thing to talk about, especially because it's not easy to do, and as someone wanting to make his own games, it is a thing I need to learn. I can also appreciate the games being shown for background footage kinda fitting with the class being talked about currently One neat example of game balance that I like is the nerf to Dan in Street Fighter 5 that got rid of his infinite, specifically a change to his Gadoken move, quote, "Gadoken has been modified to have a random chance of activating an enhanced version of the attack" "The enhanced version has a longer range than the normal version. It can knock down opponents and create chances for follow-ups when it hits, and when the opponent guards, Dan has the advantage" basically making a change that still lets Dan do his infinite as a loop but stops him from doing it the whole match if he can, by knocking down the opponent. It's a nerf that doesn't totally change the use of Gadoken, but rather prevent something that could happen, and be rather annoying; Not a full nerf or overhaul of Gadoken, but still something that keeps Dan in check. And considering Dan is kind of a joke character, especially in the earlier Street Fighter games, it also fits with his personality, since it's kinda like him doing something right by accident, I could easily see Dan going, "Uhh... I meant to do that!" after he pulls it off.
I really like your breakdown on the Natasha. It was way worse than I thought it'd be. The only time I even considered the damage penalty was in passing. I didn't even think of the spin up time
An idea I had for the caber is to make it a mini explosive market gardener. It deals mini crits on a successful blast jump, but only with the explosion itself. It can have its switch speed increased, but not up to the level of stock to keep you from instantly switching to it, so that you actually have to time it. It basically trades Trolldier's longevity and lower skill ceiling for mobility (especially if you use the sticky jumper and loose canon together) and a massive area of effect. After losing the explosive, I'd also have it that instead of the bomb regenerating, it gains a swing speed and switch speed bonus, if it's possible. If that's not possible, though, I'd just have the bomb regenerate. The idea behind this caber is to give it an actual ambush role that rewards skillful play like the old caber, while being more punishing to those who haven't mastered timing. This concept is also more centered around casual than competitive, because I don't see the caber ever being allowed in that environment.
There are *some good ideas. I do think the Eureka Effect having 2 way teleporters could be a good concept but I think that it was a bit too harsh on the penalties. I'd rework it into making it an actual utility item where the Wrench only does like 20-30 damage with no random crits and make it to where the only way to use the special action it can do is if both teleporters are up instead of just the exit with the ability to still go back to spawn if need be.
This is gonna be the biggest IMO I’ll ever drop: If more tf2 players played the first two pvz shooter games then we wouldn’t be grasping at straws trying to ether justify the sniper’s current state or trying to find a proper solution to how annoyingly oppressive the sniper is without straight up removing him or any of his unlocks. Then again the pvz shooter games are by no means saints in terms of balance, and their snipers are no exception, even if it’s because their abilities are what make them annoying to fight against instead of their primary weapon. Although I think the cactus’s primary is more appropriate to translate than captain deadbeard’s primary because captain deadbeard’s primary acts like a low damage semi auto shotgun when not scoped in because the concept of having multiple weapons to switch between is a foreign one to the pvz shooters (so much so, that you have to be specific classes, or “heroes” as the pvz shooters call their classes, in order to even have an option to melee and for 2 of the 4 classes it’s their primary or sometimes only form of damage output besides… *the abilities…* ).
The funniest thing about the Huo Long heater rebalance is the ONLY thing you have to do to make the weapon decent is make the ring togglable like BWR does yes while its still situational its MUCH better also i feel like the SVF was designed with medieval the sole idea in mind yeah in a mode where everyone is locked to either melee or a few specific weapons its.... fine not the best weapon not the worst
Man I fuckin hate sniper but even I think these nerfs/reworks really just missed the mark. I dont want to sit here and play armchair dev so the only change I would suggest is just have reverse damage falloff for his primaries. It retains what he is already good at (long range picks) but forces him to use his melee or SMG in a close range encounter like intended.
To be honest one thing that could help greatily is just, a "Sniper!" quick callout just like the Spy one so at least once you know there's a sniper around the corner and survived for once you can warn whoever else is with you to not temp their fate.
Good vid so far I just wanted to say that while I agree completely with the criticisms with the Hitman's Heatmaker rework I wanted to say that the reason why it was probably chosen to be the sneaky one without tracers was probably because of it having a silencer in the design of the weapon, I agree 100% with everything I just thought it was worth pointing out
Honestly with everything he said for sniper The most insane thing is him implying a sniper isn't ment to be stealthy Stealth is like the most basic thing a sniper does
(SCOUT BALANCE CHANGE IDEAS) (Force-A-Nature) Left-click to fire each barrel individually. 50% faster fire rate. Right-click to use Double Shot, which fires both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage. Double Shot inflicts 40% knockback to enemies and 40% self-knockback while you are airborne. 65 damage at close range. 30 damage at medium range. 10 damage at long range. (Ammo) Magazine: 2 shells Reserve: 32 shells (Shortstop) The shortstop is now a sidearm instead of a primary. Fires bullets instead of shotgun pellets. Fires 45% faster. Right click to shove enemies away, causing 20% knockback and does no damage. Mini-crits on headshot at close range. 50 damage at close range. 40 damage at medium range. 20 damage at long range. (Ammo) Magazine: 4 rounds Reserve: 34 rounds (Soda Popper) Each hit fills 10% your HYPE meter. Once fully charged, press the mouse wheel to activate HYPE, granting you 60% faster attack speed on all weapons, 40% faster reload speed on all weapons, 30% faster switching speed to and from all weapons, 50% faster running speed, and it will only last 10 seconds. Right-click to fire both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage. 60 damage at close range. 30 damage at medium range. 10 damage at long range. (Ammo) Magazine: 2 shells Reserve: 32 shells (Baby Face's Blaster) Movment speed increases with each kill by 10%. (Max: 6 kills) 30 damage at close range. 20 damage at medium range. 10 damage at long range. You lose all of your speed if you die, get hit by jarate, mad milk, the gas passer, or get stunned by the Sandman. (Ammo) Magazine: 8 shells Reserve: 40 shells (Back Scatter) Shooting enemies in the back at close range does mini-crits. 20% more accurate. 30 damage at close range. 20 damage at medium range. 10 damage at long range. (Ammo) Magazine: 10 shells Reserve: 50 shells (Bonk Atomic Punch) Grants you invulnerability for 10 seconds. Recharges for 20 seconds after it wears off. Immune to all damage, debuffs, and knockback. You cannot attack, capture control points, or pick up the intelligence while invulnerable. If you take damage while drinking Bonk, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge. You cannot drink Bonk while covered in jarate, mad milk, or the gas passer. Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet. (Crit-a-Cola) Gives you mini-crits for 10 seconds, but you will be restricted to your melee weapon. (just like the Buffalo Steak Sandvich) Recharge for 20 seconds after it wears off. If you take damage while drinking Crit-a-Cola, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge. You cannot drink Crit-a-Cola while cover in jarate, mad milk or the gas passer. Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet. (Mad Milk) Enemies will be covered in mad milk for 10 seconds. Recharges for 20 seconds. 10 health per hit on enemies covered in mad milk. (afterburn damage also counts) Enemies killed while covered in mad milk will replenish 50% of your meter. Extinguishing a teammate will replenish 90% of your meter. Reveals spies that are cloaked or disguised. Disables engineers buildings for 10 seconds. Disables medics medigun for 10 seconds. Can be reflected by pyros. Can be replenish at the resupply cabinet. (winger) 15% more accurate. Mini-crits while you are airborne. Increases jump height with each kill by 10%. (Max: 6 kills) 50% less fall damage while active. 20 damage at close range. 15 damage at medium range. 10 damage at long range. (Ammo) Magazine: 6 rounds Reserve: 36 rounds (Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol) Gain 10 health on hit. no overheal while active. 25 damage at close range. 20 damage at medium range. 15 damage at long range. (Ammo) Magazine: 6 rounds Reserve: 36 rounds (Flying Guillotine) On hit causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds. Recharges for 20 seconds. Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit. Can be picked back up if you did not hit an enemy. Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet. (Sandman) Right click to launch baseball. Hitting enemies in the body will slow them down for 10 seconds. Hitting enemies in the head will stun them for 3 seconds. Can be picked up after being launched. Can be replenished at resupply cabinet. Ball recharges for 20 seconds. (Candy Cane) Enemies killed by Candy Can will drop a health pack. Drops a small health pack if you kill a spy, sniper, scout, or medic. Drops a medium health pack if you kill an engineer, demoman, pyro, or soldier. Drops a large health pack if you kill a heavy. Increases faster swing speed with each kill by 10%. (Max: 6) (Boston Basher) On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds. On miss: marked for death for 10 seconds. (Sun-on-a-Stick) On hit: sets enemies on fire. Right-click to activate Solar Flare which will blind nearby enemies for 3 seconds. Solar Flare will recharge for 20 seconds. Afterburn last 10 seconds. 30% fire resistance while active. (Fan O War) On hit: marks enemies for death for 15 seconds. (no longer marks one enemy at a time) 50% less damage. (Atomizer) On hit: fills 10% of your INFINITY meter which can give you infinite air jumps for 10 seconds. right click to activate INFINITY ability. Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit. (Wrap Assassin) 50% less damage. Right click to launch ornament. On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds. Recharges for 20 seconds. Shatters on impact against surfaces and enemies. Cannot be picked up after being launched. Can be replenished at resupply cabinet.
to that kunai part: it sucks, the knife sucks, it's weak, it's brast beast kind of trap. all it takes to counter is a single pyro, and it doesn't matter how good as a spy you are nor how many sweatlord spies there are on your team, nor how bad the enemy team is. one pyro DOMINATES a kunai spy to an absurd extend. how do I know? I made a losing team win against 3 spy mains with the kunai+dead ringer+amby/DB set equipped, as a pyro, and a demo main (altho that really just shows you how absurdly unfair the spy vs. pyro match-up is, rather than anything else). also, yeah, the vid sucks, and the moronic hatred against iron bomber is ludicrous, cuz I mainly play with it and it's COMPLETELY different to stock. but play the class, and not many are masochists and alcoholics. ok, I got triggered by sb attacking my baby.
"sorry for the time investment this video asks of you" bold of you to assume i don't want a very long and interesting video to play on my second monitor while i draw
The huo-long I think has never needed any kind of change. It is fine as is. "A little extra damage" as he puts it is in fact only 5% less than the brass beast. At stock rev and movement speed. I get people think that's not really worth it, but it is better by far than the changes Grouch proposed, which let's be honest, makes it a weapon designed to steal kills from pyros and nothing else.
The only flaw in this video is him saying that vacc's weakness is melee/untyped damage. Which isn't true because the vacc dosen't make you prone to untyped damage, it just forces people to use melee or bleed or just run away. Also to point out that response is assuming that tf2 is played in a vacuum. Medics hide right behind the front lines where there team is, and I don't need to say why running into the enemy team with your melee is a bad idea. If a medic is out of postion, doesn't matter if they're using vacc, it still takes 3 melee hits to kill him. But this video is 5 months old, im sure this type of comment has already been written and seen. Good video! Edit: forgor to mention that medic can hold the S key to walk away from you if they see you and also have a primary and melee of their own and the pocket if they see that the medic is dying.
22:16 you sounded kinda weird the whole video before that point, but now it seems like you just dont want to change anything. I think ammo is a fine nerf, in fact you may not even need tracer rounds with that Also yes, close range class such as pyro counter long range class such as sniper, just like swords and pikes countered early muskets!
The Pyro does counter Sniper with the flare guns. Flare guns have an arc but infinite range. In fact, WAY back in old TF2, the Flare Gun being added was a big deal for that reason - it gave a long-range answer to a sniper who lacks cover, but using cover blocks the sniper's line of sight. It was a very big deal.
@@JakeJakers sniper has infinite range and hitscan is undodgable. You can just 3 bodyshot kill a pyro while doing anything but standing still in most sightlines and you will be fine even worse for pyro if you can actually aim and land a headshot
I just wanted to comment that we had the same train of thought towards Fat scout, tough I originally thought of just making lunchboxes available on the primary slot similar to how the Demoman can use the base jumper, in any of the cases, if it also implemented the idea of removing the damage penalty from the steak and make it not lock you to melee, it could then work for the fatscout playstyle
@@Nedoikobut heavy has more than double scout’s hp as trade off. He also has mini crits meaning in a 1v1 situation he can just run you down with the mini crit shotgun. You can imagine this similar to old Reserve shooter with Pyro, back when it can mini crit airblasted players. So all Pyro had to do was charge in, airblast, shoots 1-2 times and kills you instantly. And this was on a class with 175 Hp. Imagine a 300hp class doing this to you.
@@theotv5522 maybe a potential solution is that the minicrits apply only to melee, but you're not locked into only using melee, so you're benefiting from the speedboost, and can still switch into your regular shotgun?
40:43 I’m a little confused. You’re against buffing the rocket jumper because Trolldier is “stronger than he has any right to be” but you also want to buff the mantreads, the go-to trolldier secondary?
Sorry for the sconfusion, so let me elaborate: I don't want that particular buff of instant map teleportation with the rocket jump. And I only mention the man treads because, beyond trolldier, me and my friends have found it to be one of the weakest options. the implication was meant to be that it could be given stronger use-cases beyond trolldier Probably should have brought up the B.A.S.E. jumper (since it got nerfed a bit too hard), but the point was that it's weird to think that there's only one soldier weapon (the Righteous Bison) needs a buff. Hopes this makes a little more sense.
I like how long it is. It gives them plenty of time to say exactly what they need to say. There isnt anything thats drawn out, or unnecessary, all of it is important to getting the points across.
As you mentioned many times through out one of the biggest problems grouch made is completely scraping what is there already with concept totally unrelated. The things being, some does have potential or interesting. But what give him right to sentence options doesn't shine in his eye to oblivious out right? Enforcer's replacement both had development going for them with a little adjust to go, but why are you devaluating the fine pierce tool ?
His mini gun changes really get under my skin , I'm a 900 hour heavy main and I can tell you heavy doesn't have a bad mini gun they just require a diffrent mindset and playstyle Support with natasha Aggressive or ambush with the heater Hyper defensive with the beast
Issue with Beast is you're essentially corner camping, and to do that effective you need to be around busy chokes/corners to mask your gun. Otherwise the loud noise will just alert everyone of your position and they can deal with you easy. This then leads to the problem of being in a busy choke as a heavy. So at best you kill 1-2 unaware people, and then die because you can't run away as a Heavy quickly before the rest of their team sees you. So you're not planning to get out alive when doing this strat (You're basically a human land mine if that make sense). The damage bonus, as someone has calculated, doesn't matter since you're really killing them in 0.5 seconds instead of 1 second. Heavy has the highest dps at mid-close range so the bonus is just irrelevant. People use it in MvM because there you're fighting bots with up to 15k HP instead of the max 450HP heavy you see in PvP. In PvP your survival matters more than damage, and the BB just not let you have that.
Darwin is the one weapon deserved replaced completely (arguably most backpack secondary too). But, if were to elaborate on this jumpy i have suggestion. The same jump ability requires resource to initiate. Taken 65 damage enable 1 jump, can stored up to 150 disposable. This make it so encourages sniper to act closer to frontline and taking risk (damaged), then reward for mobility option responsibly. While a dominating sniper couldn't abuse position again avenging sniper fail to lay a hand on, sitting comfortably far behind also won't do anything.
ok i wanted to do a full review because the first time i saw this i acted rashly gonna do it here where i can get extra feedback. (i'm not gonna be very specific though, similar to grouch) and will attempt to change his ideas to better balance them out, not every weapon is salvageable though, i will mention them when they come. heavy primaries: (this is gonna be a chain of comments where each comment will focus on a slot or character) Natasha: good concept, terrible execution, when it comes to TF2 speed is king it must always come with the reduction to either health or damage, something that Grouch missed with this weapon but got with both the buffalos stake and the Darwin's danger shield, but i think part of it is because the Natasha already had a damage nerf (as weak as it really is because the type of weapon Natasha is) my change for the weapon is to remove the damage penalty at the cost of a much harsher damage fall off and a 50 max health reduction, allowing the Natasha to specialize in specifically close range combat and big ambushes where you shove yourself onto the enemy, the extra speed will allow you to remain in close range for longer securing more kills then usual from the worse fall off while the max health reduction will allow you to be stopped easier. in the case the weapon is still overpowered i would consider reducing your speed when revved up to be less oppressive in the chase (but not back to the old rev speed just slightly slower) or give the Natasha a wider spread of bullets making you miss more often which helps your enemies both in chases and in time during direct combat. Brass beast: this change in unsalvageable, 200 extra bullets don't help with the problem of the BB and it doesn't fix the problem grouch pointed out. Hue long Heater: the concept is terrible, once again he pointed out the problem where it's a little worse most of the time and a little better some of the time but it's out of your control, making the weapon extra polarizing doesn't help the weapon, once again the balance change is unsalvageable.
heavy secondaries: Delokohs bar: grouch definitely went too far here, he had a point with what he was trying to do to our snack making it consumed faster, it helps every use of the delokohs bar, you get more time with your extra health, you can preform the GRU glitch faster, you can heal up quicker then the banana or sandwich. the main problem is that he also reduced the health gotten from the bar, my change is simple, revert the healing reduction back and recharge rate to the original value but keep the time it takes to eat the bar smaller then it's original point. BSS: the big problem is definitely as you pointed out, the fact that it gives you a damage vulnerability above the melee lock, but the change grouch suggested isn't as bad as it seems, eating the BSS faster allows you to start your rampage sooner and in more situations, but i do still disagree with making it deploy and holster faster it does that quick enough already, my only change is to revert the deploy and holster bonus. the family business: this is unsalvageable, he attempted to do a complete reform of the gun to fat scout only, locking your 2ndary to the big business and your primary to nothing, if i were to ever add a fat scout class to TF2 it would be through a shotgun to the primary slot not a change to the family business (which imo needs to be multiclass instead of the reserved shooter because that gun fits 3 out of 4 shotgun users lore wise unlike the reserve shooter)
sniper changes: i actually would generally agree with these changes but change some stuff, for examples, i would keep the classic's air tracers and give the Sidney sleeper those tracers as well (rather then the normal tracers everyone else is getting) i would also be more with FSOAS when it comes to the ammo department where sniper needs a clip that doesn't reload automatically, instead of just gutting the ammo pool of sniper by half, now sniper doesn't allow a functionally permanent lockdown of a part of a map due to him having a clip. Sniper primaries: HMHM: if you look deep you realize the heat maker still has half the ammo pool meaning the only downside it doesn't get is the tracer rounds, well let's change that. instead of 66% less body shot damage return it to 20% and instead add the classic's air tracers. Machina: jeeze what was the point of this nerf? the Machina didn't need it just revert it to the current version.
sniper 2ndaries: DDS: what is this shit? a sniper that's just as fast as scout but can also jump higher? pretty sure it matches with a scout that double jumped using the fucking WINGER! this is not what the shield was designed for and the buff is unsalvageable, every buff to a sniper's movement speed is basically a nuclear bomb to TF2 game balance. Razorback back: just revert it to the current form, there is no need for a Wet piss blanket, it doesn't protect you from spies at all it does nothing. unsalvageable. also the overheal removal was for you not being able to tank both a backstab AND a headshot, not spy's revolver. Cozy camper: W H Y ? ! this is once again unsalvageable and needs to be reverted back to the current item immediately! current cozy camper isn't even unbalanced, there was no reason for him to include it in the video. cleaner's carbine: once again you are correct in your assessment, grouch's fix is welcomed but unnecessary. i don't think i should even talk about it because it changes nothing when it comes to the problem of the weapon (aka the firing speed)
Sniper melee: Shahansha (or as i like to call it the Shanshanasha): once again polarizing a weapon doesn't make it better, if anything it make the Shanshanasha worse, and unsalvageable nerf to a hard to implement concept, revert to current form. Tribalman's shiv: why did he reduce it's damage? it didn't need it a nerf, keep the extra bleed but return the damage to as it was before grouch's change.
solider's bison: eh he did a good enough job, but i don't think it is the best concept this thing could offer, just like you i'm conflicted. scout's candy cane: revert to original, this is unsalvageable, idk what made you change a specific downside to a general one and MAKE IT WORSE but you sure did it grouch. Demo's caber: this is truly unsalvageable, more then 400 explosive recoil damage is just stupid, triple building damage is smart in the context that you have nothing against buildings, sadly this is demoman we are talking about and a melee is the worst slot to place it in, as for random crits it's truly a screw you moment. Demo's Iron bomber: grouch forgot that small differences can be good the Iran bomber's pills are made in a way where it's easier to use them for jumps, this alone is a massive upside which puts it above stock for me, so turning it to a carpet bomber is a no on my end, please revert to original because this weapon shouldn't have been discussed.
It's actually because the Sunflowers are more replaceable. It gives the Peashooters the max amount of time to kill something that breaks through the defenses.
6:50 Natascha in rebalance mods does the exact same thing as Grouch's idea. Nobody really cares that you seem to dislike it, but it did work on every rebalance mod that had the same idea. I dont know, no reason to really continue watching this video when it starts with such a low note...
Game designer here. I haven't watched Grouch's video and probably will not finish yours, but, RE: Huo-Long Heater. It makes a lot of sense to make it worse without pyro and better with one? To make both upsides and downsides more prominent is a classic design technique to give an option a defined niche, in this case, a weapon you use when you are on call with a pyro player. Whether stock damage + no falloff is sufficient to accomplish that is debatable, but it is a step in a good direction. The same goes for Brass Beast. It makes sense to make a "sentry gun" to be better at sentry gunning instead of trying to make it faster. I agree that extra ammo would probably not be sufficient, but it probably allows more flexibility with positioning at cheeky spots instead of being superglued to a dispenser.
Thanks for responding - it's always cool to talk to a game designer. but the issue is that those two weapons are TOO niche, especially the Hou-Long Heater. His "buff" to the heater makes it ONLY good at comboing with a Pyro, when it needs use beyond that. For example, if he just added a single change where it gets the Tomisolv's faster rev-up, it also becomes a better ambush minigun and helps mitigate the ammo consumption of the ring of fire. But that lower damage against non-burning targets would encourage the player to be more of an ambush Heavy instead of just stalking a Pyro.
@@JakeJakers I don't think it's a realistic problem, honestly. Pyro is a very popular class, and while maybe my perception is skewed by Uncletopia's class limits, I don't think I've been in any matches without a single pyro, and generally pyros and heavies tend to be within line sight of each other so it's not like either will have to go out of their way to make such version of Huo-Long Heater work. I can easily imagine how in a defence scenario a pyro can enable a distant heavy to put serious pressure on the enemy. On, say, Snakewater last heavy can defend right, and have a pyro hanging around shutter (or vice versa). Generally, the main problem with miniguns is that they are same-y, with neither their downsides nor upsides demanding much change in play style, and forced cooperation sounds like something that will make players to play differently than with stock. Is it perfect? Probably no. Your suggestions of either giving it tighter spread or faster rev up time are undeniably sound, but I think the core idea is a step the right direction. Ultimately it's all navel gazing, the game will never receive balance updates anyway, and it's much more useful to think abstractly rather than getting bogged down in specifics.
@@AliceLoverdrive Oh, my issue isn't the LACK of pyro. It's that a Pyro often doesn't need much help. The you describe would work with Grouch's version, but I'd rather not have weapons, especially primary weapons, be THAT situational in the first place. Which is where I take issue with the rebalance video - calling something a buff while making the very issue worse. And I think there's value in the Naval gazing from simply encouraging critical thinking in the first place. plus, it's pretty fun.
The crazy part of his favorite wrench being the sh is that he constantly complains about boring weapons and plays with the most boring wrench? I feel like theres a joke about it doing bleed damage in here
The thing I take from his video is he has a cowardly play style; as in he likes gimmicks that only need to hit the enemy once or twice and let the weapon does it's thing, even if said thing is weak af. Then he gaslight himself into thinking said thing is not so bad.
I have the impression you're okay with the natascha's slow down gimmick. Also, if you think it's overkill to nerf sniper's ammo capacity, remember that sniper can kill any class in the game instantly whilst only being 4 pixels tall on their screen. If anything Grouch was too lenient when nerfing sniper
His rebalance video and the follow up has made sure I never watch his content, all of the changes are soooooo bad yet he defends most of them or makes them worse in the follow up.
@JakeJakers As many people have said sniper is somewhat overpowered, but i think he's not unbeatable. It's just that to effectively deny him having a good gamesense is crucial, if you don't plan on changing classes to counter the sniper, that is. I wouldn't mind seeing something done with the class, purely for the sake of experementation, though
![[TF2] Weapons and How to Do Counterplay](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jHnZaXTHUqs/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Weapons and How to Do Counterplay](/img/tr.png)
I think a huge problem with the original video is that he called it rebalances but his intent was seemingly just ideas he had for fun...which are not the same
It's not just that. there are a lot of comments throughout the video that contribute to frustration of the original video. He did tone that down in the follow-up, so I think he realized that as well.
In the video he doesnt act like that at all, im pretty sure he was just backpedaling
If that’s the case him mentioning weapons that he doesn’t change at all is contradicting that. Why have them in when they haven’t changed at all?
his ability to find exactly what is wrong with a weapon and then make the worst idea imaginable is amazing
At points, yes. But to be fair, there are some good ideas here. I find the ideas that are objectively buffs but don't actually fix the problem more baffling, personally.
I feel that there are some nice ideas here, but they get overshadowed by the more ridiculous concepts and the weird inconsistencies between the script and the actual changes.
It also didn't account for the fact WHY certain weapons are the way they were. For example, Vitasaw (before the organ system): it used to be very unfair because if 1 medic uses it, the other has to, otherwise they'll be at a disadvantage when they die.
That's just goes to show that it's a lot simpler to notice the problem than to fix it
my dad watched this video then started using broken bottles to add bleed while he was abusing me...
*[BUFFED]*
I LOVE BLEED!!!!
THIS IS MY BLOOOOOOD!
As i had unpopular comment under original video, bleed can very potentially replace melee random crit 1 shot kill that is.
Maybe roll them the same way, but instead of gamble 1 shot a dying wish tainted murder seems more appropriate
I'M GONNA NERF THE JAG TO BUFF MY BLEED WRENCH BLOOD IT'S BLEEEDINNNNGGG
@@ammi5311, 🗣replace random crits with random bleed effect❗❗🔥🔥
@@ammi5311 As a medic I'm all for exchanging random crits with random bleed. At least with bleed you have time to react, especially when it's something that's unaccounted for by both you and the attacker. I never understand why TF2 players keep saying TF2 is a skill-based game when you can randomly roll triple, no-fall off dmg and nuke someone.
It's like playing cards but you randomly draw 3 cards instead of 1.
Honestly speaking if valve did decide to give all sniper rifles tracers then 100% the Sydney sleeper should be the exception. Because its weak and because you cant tracer a dart
the sydney sleeper wasnt weak before, valve just killed it by removing jarate splash on headshot
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I wish they'd keep that at least in MvM
would be pretty cool if the sydney sleeper had silent kills like the eternal reward since it shoots tranquilizers
Sydney Sleeper is banned in comp 6s because the ability to coat jarate, a very strong debuff from distance, makes medics now die even faster without the sniper needing skills to land a headshot.
I feel like the hit man's heat maker should also lack tracers
"A novice can be well observed, a professional can have a limited view" is such a good statement. This is why balancing purely around a competitive community is a bad idea; them being pros at your game does NOT mean they know what's best for it.
I just noticed all the gameplay footage fits the class being talked of
You're the first person to comment on that.
What are the games?
Was expecting to see some hospital simulator game for the medic section but instead got something even more fitting lol
@@JakeJakers I love Serious Sam The Second Encounter
@@banbanthebandit4002 We got Emesis Blue
Vacc defo needs to be nerfed or reworked and bringing up fucking melee damage as a counterpoint is ridiculous which just leaves unpleasant whiplash since most other comments you make are quite reasonable
make that 33% uber build penalty apply to shielded targets and its fine
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 that is definately not fine
yeah that part really irritated me "oh you can counter the vacc just simply melee the medic, because it's definitely that easy"
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 I fought a Vacc the other day on Thunder mountain and he alone was able to lock down the 2nd choke on stage 2, and his team kept corner-peaking. Before this I legit thought Vacc is weak in chokes due to all the spam, but honestly most of the time at chokes you rarely take fire dmg because nobody is crazy enough to charge in a choke blindly as a pyro. So that only leaves 2 dmg types which is much easier to manage.
Vacc has this issue where the skill ceiling is insane but once you reach it the thing just becomes the most toxic thing in the game.
@@theotv5522TF2 has that problem a lot. Valve underestimate the time investment people would put into classes and playstyles and, what do you know, some things become stupidly overpowered if you put a few hundred or thousand hours into them! They made a whole class around that concept.
6:51 Honestly, as someone whose favourite class is Heavy, as much as I wholeheartedly agree that people who propose that a speed buff rework for the Natasha are missing the point... I also have to point out that the uses that you listed are exactly what people hated about the gun right now.
Back then you can completely negate the slow debuff from it by spamming A+D (side stepping basically), but when Valve tried to remove the stun from the Sandman, they broke the Natasha, so now people are feeling the full effect of the Natasha. Just a little bit of TF2 lore I wanna share.
I like to believe that the videogames used as background footage have a direct relationship to what is being talked about.
I just can't really get it out of my head that Scout segment is hell, and the final segment is Buckshot Roulette after all the madness. Even if the connection is tenuous.
You are correct that the gameplay wasn't random. Although the connections with Scout and Medic aren't quite right. Care to guess why I used the gameplay I did? I'm curious what your guesses are.
@@JakeJakers is medic a reference to emesis blu, with that russian roullete scene with post-burnt spy and soldier
@@terriblydrawnkobe Unintentionally, but yes.
@@JakeJakers was it another scene? I cant recall any other scene like that except maybe that funeral scene where medic shot the spy
I do have to put notes on the natasha, the dmg penalty really means nothing on it as you can close the distance on your enemies rather than having to poke corners. Heavy is still the highest dps in the game wnd even at midrange will chew through players even with a 30% dmg penalty. Playing on the server you really felt the movement increase not only helped you dodge players but get ramp up much faster and even chase players trying to escape. The only thing thats bad about it now is the while active health drain. The rev speed is fine since you dont want a fast rev and fast movement speed heavy bullying you. If the health drain was while reved instead of while active it would be much more fun to play with and allows it to be its own thing risking your tankiness for speed. Comp players on the video mostly said that it having no speed penalty was actually broken so yeah it was very overpowered before the nerfs
Thanks for the first-hand input. Really appreciate.
I propose it follow the similar design at that point which is baby-face blaster.
Retaliate reduced heavy's gained speed while he earned it back with damage delt positive feedback is a much proper drawback
Providing you tools to prevent taking damage, then making you take damage sounds kinda odd. Especially in the context of the weapon being used in active combat.
@@dumbvillage9253 Brother you just described Scout's Babyface blaster.
I, personally, _love_ long-form content, such as Blue's 2:27:27 reaction, your 1:29:13 analysis, etc. I like this because I love listening to people talk about a subject related to what I'm doing, so I'll play videos just like this when I'm in Hammer++ working on maps and gamemodes, when I'm not playing with friends, etc.
_This is probably because I'm autistic and TF2 is my favorite video game, but much love nonetheless!_
The best way to make Fat Scout viable is to have a shotgun primary, letting you bring a Sandvich
I really hope to see you do more TF2 videos, one of my favourite things about you is how interesting you are to listen to and how knowledgeable you are when talking about dead rising and even this video! Also kudos to you for not hating on Grouch, by acknowledging how he's taken this criticism politely and constructively and to be nice to him. I like that.
Thanks. I have other TF2 ideas I wouldn't mind trying, like my own weapon rebalances.
@@JakeJakerslet's see them 😮
8:00
This is a surprise to me. Grouch was NOT the first person to suggest inverting the Natascha (from slowing down enemies to speeding up the user), it was actually a very popular suggestion among several content creators. So it's a bit of a shock to have it finally tested out and discover that it just isn't healthy or balanced
Casual players finally realise what comp players were yelling on the top of their lungs during the making of the Global whitelist.
If they officially give the sniper rifles tracers I'd rather they be proper bullet tracer bolts and not the Machina laser tracer that way you actually have to use your brain to triangulate where the sniper is.
I find it funny that he didnt even spare The Classic from the sniper rifle nerfs. Wouldn't it make perfect sense for the already bad weapon to not get changes? The classic is already meant to be a callback to the old sniper. Why not have it be the one exempt from these changes instead of the heatmaker?
Because everyone who tried to use it and even the community gaslit others saying it's very good. It created a Mandela effect on the weapon, and people who don't play Sniper would believe is real. Kinda like how if you tell a non-TF2 player that the Mad Cap is an actual class or cosmetic/weapon, they would probably believe it.
Every time I thought I had seen the maximum extent of Grouch's dumbass balance changes, the guy managed to one up his own lunacy with every additional weapon change.
Truly a remarkable feat.
You know what's even worse? His server as of date is completely empty. So chances are he stopped balancing his own ideas half way through. People like these I hate the most. They throw out half-ass ideas, ruin things, then move on.
Going to take notes again but for sniper. The ammo penalty was definitely needed for this class. In casual tf2 a good sniper can lock down an entire choke point for ages with his 25 reserve ammo. Not to mention sniper is also where the engineer is so he gets infinite ammo already from dispensers. This already known that causally nobody communicates (thx valve cause all the f2p still cant call for medic) but sniper is very hard to counter without another sniper. Spy is the only class that can somewhat get to sniper without having to sacrifice much but that is also a spy making sure they dont get spotted, actually kill the sniper, and then hope they can get out alive before the snipers team looks around. Every other class has to do way too much to kill a class that can 1 shot instant kill 5 out of the 9 classes. Whats stopping a sniper from camping near a sentry to just deny every class other than another sniper? 12 reserve ammo is more than enough to lock down a choke point but also allows breathing room. Down time on sniper is a great nerf that makes it where he is vulnerable but can still can use his team as a meat shield but also allow the other team to play the game.
I appreciate these inputs. Nice to get some first-hand experience from his server.
Yes indeed, sniper's burst fire natural and exclusiveness to ramp up buts him in a unique place.
Each ammo start from 50 damage with charge system for a 3x multiplier (150) then another 3x mechanical head shot multiplier (450)
Potential of spilling 450x25=11250 across the map without resupply is absurd
unless you give him like 2 shots only, an ammo nerf does nothing
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 the ammo nerf forces the sniper to be in very predictable spots more often than not. If you know where a ammo pack is or the engie has a dispenser near the back instead of higher traffic areas
@@Aegisdex hes already in very predictable spots, the actual problem is that you cant do much about him being in said predictable spot, as the reason why hes there so often is because that spot is really really good. i can tell you by memory every place a sniper can be on upward, you go play a match and hell be there guaranteed.
most of sniper hate stems from payloads overwhelming popularity, and payload maps are built around a track so they tend to be very very long, thus creating huge sightlines. you dont see anyone complaining about sightlines on a map like steel because its very condensed and doesnt have unreasonably huge fighting areas
basically, all the payload maps you love have horrid sightlines. upward, badwater, borneo, swiftwater, pier
I think it’d be cool if the Sharpened Volcano Fragment had fire resistance and did more damage while you’re taking fire damage, with a lingering effect for a few seconds after the damage stops.
A tool for the Pyro vs Pyro matchup if you wanna keep a flare gun but also a weapon that’d pair with detonator jumping as a combat opener.
That just leaves the other pyro to airblast you away, doesn’t sound that practical
Damn wasn't expecting dead rising boy to cover this.
The main thing with the Kunai + Diamondback is that, yes, in a match with completely competent teammates their flaws come out in full force and actually act to balance the weapons (which is why the Kunai remains unbanned in all competitive formats, though the Diamondback is 6 feet under in both 6v6 and Highlander), but even a single sub-competent teammate can be taken advantage of to completely negate those drawbacks for no fault of your own. This is where most of the ire against those weapons come in, and why so many pub stomping rampages are noted compared to the Spy being put in a perpetual spawn timer on an Uncletopia server. Because if little Timmy running around with an unusual bought with his dad's disposable income and his back faced towards the enemy at all times gets Kunai'd, then suddenly you're left to disengage with the enemy's frontline and now have to deal with a Spy possessing 4x the overheal that can be given by a Medigun (or ~12% more than the max possible overheal compared to Stock Spy) and a free long range 102 damage chunker while retaining all of Stock Spy's capabilities. And if you take him down to half or less, but little Tommy isn't paying attention while shooting at the enemy half a map away with his minigun, then suddenly you have to fight pretty much a whole 'nother Spy who, again, still has access to all of Stock Spy's tools.
For other snowball weapons like the Eyelander, the Bazaar Bargain, the Air Strike, the Frontier Justice, etc, there is still the element of punishing you for your teammate's mistakes in them as well, but even if little Timmy and Tommy get a 0:15 K:D ratio against them, there are still other elements that keep them in check compared to stock. The Eyelander and Bazaar Bargin have to get two kills in without dying to cover for their lower Health/charge rate, and the Air Strike and the Frontier Justice have to _always_ sacrifice a good chunk of damage/splash radius or clip size, respectively.
So for the Kunai and Diamondback, they _should_ be changed if not just to cause less strife between teammates, but so many balance ideas just push the idea of further reducing max HP or damage inflicted when that is a lost cause. You end up with something that is either _still_ better than stock after using an incompetent teammate as fodder, or something _almost entirely_ worse than stock no matter the scenario. Or in Grouch's case, they just completely revamp the weapon, which isn't historically unprecedented for TF2, but it leaves their previous niche completely void when it _could_ work with just a bit of tweaking. A cut to cloak duration or a penalty to sapper damage are all it takes for the Diamondback and Kunai to feel like proper sidegrades even when they are used to pubstomp on an "immortal" Spy loadout.
Yeah, as I mentioned in the video during the snier section, rebalancing a weapon based on the player base's skill is a very tricky subject. I personally vote for leaving them as is for now.
Tired of this punished by your incompetence team argument.
As if you supposed to not punished by lesser team in a team game.
Every other thing in game can capitalise on various degrees, just that kunai does in a away you aware off.
Guess what little Timmy also fed comp head random crit chance without you noticing, let alone a 0/15 KD already disabled your team's functionality by every player "falls easily to trickstab"
diamondbacks banned in 6s because they say spy cant get more than 1 kill and then get angry when he actually does get more than 1 kill with the help of crits
why do you bring up the bazaar bargain, unlike every other snowball weapon, even the diamondback, it has no downside in the right hands. its the dumbest snowball weapon of them all
25:20 (aprox timestamp of an argument)
I feel like learning how to play the second most powerful class in the game (mundee mc sniper) SHOULD be difficult because y know, if you are gonna be far away from everyone and instakill pepole at least it should require you to learn to position properly, be aware of players that might be flanking at you, and manage your resources instead of playing a point and click adventure with ocasional quick time events
Im not calling snipers low skilled players, i just feel like to play something so powerful it should be hard to learn so you get GOOD and dominate the aspects of sniper gameplay
I agree - but Sniper already IS hard to play because it's a movement-based arena shooter.
The Classic and Sidney Sleeper being the only rifles without tracers would actually be a pretty solid change to Sniper. Especially if it was Classic tracers instead of full tracers that are on the other guns.
While there are poor ideas suggested in his original video, the impression I got is that some people's reaction were overblown. It's good to see folks criticizing without making things personal. A well done reply video :).
I mean, i liked some of his reworks, like his sniper one, but he then does... Asinine decisions like, "hey, snipers are too oppressive and i made a change for them that brings them in line? Well, danger shield that turns sniper into scout and a frog, heatmaker is basically a base game sniper, and cozy camper gives you 40 ammo."
And of course, the infamous... "Enforcer".
@@CodexQuinn Fair criticisms.
@@Scout-Fanfiction thank you, and also, i do agree. Some people just started hating on the guy instead of any actual criticism, like the bog standard "oooo that idea stupid."
@@CodexQuinn you're welcome
@@CodexQuinn Most people I've watch reacting to this gave fair criticism (Blue, Jake, HiGPS) so I can't see your point. But from the sound of it seems like those aren't worth a watch if they didn't give a reason so I won't ask you who you're referring to.
I wasnt expecting you of all people to make a TF2 video, but I am all the happier for it, especially given how thorough it is.
So, his vitasaw change
Played in his server, and it has rhe exact same issues he said the Kunai had. Medics now can tank more than they should, giving the class who can go invulnerable or give guaranteed crits for 8 seconds too much tankiness.
I agree the Vitasaw needed change, but Medics getting that tanky is just unfun
That one was quite a miss.
It could really be middle ground of what it used to be .
Passive kept up to 20% uber, on hit doubles (40%) for short duration like 5sec, and the 140hp is fair
But dude!
8. SECONDS. OF BLEED.
I still find it funny that he made a gun that would be countered by a band-aid.
just on the topic of the natascha, you bring up some good points about how the its a support weapon, the changes dont work as a support weapon anymore, but you never stop to think if a class should have the ability to do the things the natascha does
edit: you do the same thing with the darwins danger shield, you point out the weapon isnt useless (which is fair) but you dont question if sniper should have a more or less immunity to one of only a small handful of counterplay he has
Edit 2: you do this again in your little tangent with the ambassador, you state "the stealth class doesnt get to snipe" but you dont consider how it would affect the game
this video just feels like you disagreeing with grouch like he doesnt "get" tf2, and youre trying to explain it to him
and dont get me wrong, i dont like grouchs ideas either, but youre not breaking down his rebalances
28:41 no? If something is boring in a videogame and It serves no other purpose, why the hell would It be in a game that was made to be fun?
make it 28:41 (also I really agree with your point!)
Helltaker for scout is so fitting i love it
"The Huo-long's gimmick doesn't work because it requires you to coordinate with your Pyro, so I increased its damage at mid and long range where your ring of fire can't ignite enemies and reduced its base damage even further to compensate" is such a bizarre balance non-sequitur for me and completely set the tone for the rest of the video.
The Huo-long is already situational, it's basically only useful for guarding Engi nests and pushing payload, because dispenser or cart ammo regen completely negates the ammo cost for the ring. It does need better accuracy, or reduced spin-up or to apply fire after a certain number of hits or something else to make it a worthwhile pick, but I still enjoy using it to push cart for its novelty.
But I'd love to have a faster Dalokohs (as the Fishcake). Its niche is in counteracting the GRU or Eviction Notice health drain due to its temporary +50 max health, so being able to eat it faster would be a big improvement.
Also, the easiest way to make the "if you equip a lunchbox item you can equip a shotgun" happen imo is if you made the lunchbox items equippable as primaries, replacing the minigun instead of the shotgun.
Last comment, I think the best way to rebalance sniper is to make all headshots do minicrits instead of crits, the way the Sydney Sleeper does, unless fully charged. That way Sniper can still do effective damage at range without being able to instantly kill almost half the roster a moment after seeing them, while still preserving the ability of Sniper to remove overhealed Heavies, Soldiers, Demos and Pyros.
This would sniper a worthless waste of a class slot lmao
the huolong isnt situational there is no situation in which it is good. no, its not good on the cart either, because the cart cant help you shake off that permanent 10% damage penalty
>dalokohs should be faster
no, that makes it a brainless crutch, practically an overwatch ability. the only problem it has is its pathetic healing, 350 health is no good if you cant even get to max health
>sniper minicrit headshots
oh my god shitters need to pipe down and stop talking about sniper
Huo-long better change would be if you can manually toggle on/off the ring of fire. And lets say if it's off, you get bonus accuracy, but when on, you get minicrits against burning players instead.
The issue with faster Dalokohs (Grouch's version) is that it encourages a very cowardly play style for a class that's supposed to be the "tank" of the team. Not to mention Heavy while having a high health pool struggles to stick around for long because during team fights lots of things can chew through his 300+ overheal health, so anything that offer sustained healing will be better than having to constantly dip in and out just for a measly 50hp heal. I would prefer if it has multiple charges with each charge you eat faster, and you can activate it to consume all charges, but you eat for the same duration (or longer) with other lunchbox items.
The current Dolokohs can't counteract the GRU or Eviction because that 50 max hp only translates to roughly 2 extra seconds with GRU (which is minimal). I would much prefer you eat the Steak and get the bonus move speed for roll outs, then rely on your med for heals to compensate for no sandwiches (this is a common strat for comp heavy in 6s).
Lastly, while I hate snipers, someone pointed out how, similar to spies, snipers has to kill 2 enemies to equal out him playing sniper. This is because he does not have field presence and is not an active target during team fights. Compared to...lets say a soldier. Soldier is always at the front, so enemies will be constantly shooting at him while he return fire. With sniper, he essentially forces his team to fight with 1 less player until he gets a kill or 2. So nerfing sniper is actually a very difficult process that I don't think anyone can fix. Nerf him too hard and he becomes worthless, but his current state is also very annoying and has little counters.
7:35 I think its more of the fact that he's heard so many complaints about people DESPISING slowdown in TF2's fast paced movement game. So he got rid of it and made heavy faster which I think is fine, I specifically hate using Natascha because of the slowdown, I feel like an ass using it. His next video's rebalance is downright atrocious.
I feel like a buff the Brass Beast could use is a knockback resistance when active, it's supposed to be his heaviest mini gun I feel like it should act like one. OR just make the downsides less worse by making both go to 40% instead of 50% spin up and 60% slower movement, that way their not AS bad as people say they are but still have those downsides be noticeable.
The best thing we can do for the Huo Long Heater is to make the 10% damage penalty ONLY affect non burning targets so that way when they are on fire the 25% damage bonus isn't partially negated because of the downside. While I don't have issues with the ammo drain cause I've gotten used to it there are other players who can't watch their ammo so maybe reduce it to 3 ammo drain.
tf2s not a fast paced movement game and the natascha isnt particularly annoying to fight. the real problem with it is that its a useless counterintuitive crutch
the huolong is such a boring weapon, the 1 new thing it has and its something heavy cant even utilize. shouldve been a firework launcher like intended
I feel like the problem with toning down the stats is that it makes it less distinct, I like clear-cut harsh downsides for good upsides tradeoffs
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 "not a fast paced movement game" You have not played the same game I have apparently.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 "tf2 not fast paced movement game" I think you and I aren't playing the same game. There's a reason why there's more scout, soldier, and demoman mains than heavy mains in the game. Scout's fast running, Soldier with rocket jumps, Demoman with sticky jumping.
@@wolfthegreat87 cutting 10% off of the rev up speed and 20% off of the slower movement won't change too much.
Grouch says that heavy doesn't have a "true" subclass and then says engi has battle engi which isn't a "true" subclass either technically also as a sniper main who enjoys the classic grouch should have give it silent shot along with the Sydney sleeper instead of the hitmans heartmaker(I just wanted to say I'm not the best sniper and thus adding tracers to every rifle would feel insanely hard to play as now newer players will have an impossible time playing the game).
Grouch is also just being rude to people who enjoy the caber by saying "caber users are not normal sane people"
Grouch also changes weapons he finds boring which is a flawed view point and should not be the way you rebalance anything in a game
With the diamond back why can't spy have a power gun because yes I understand that the diamond back is annoying to fight against but it doesn't make sense that the diamond back shouldn't be a good gun and instead it should be pretty gimmicky and not very good gun
With the Diamondback the complaints is you're being punished for having bad teammates. It's like imagine if you turn a corner to eat a crit rocket because earlier someone died to that soldier and now you're paying for his mistakes.
Playing online with randoms already isn't very fun, seeing how people don't like to work with 1 another, or even listen to 1 another, so things like DB just crank that problem up to about 11.
Funny enough the gun is fair in comp 6s because getting chainstabs isn't the point of a Spy pick, which just goes to show how different the 2 game modes are, and how different the view point of the 2 communities. Really facinating stuff.
YEAH MY DEAD RISING BOOK TIER LIST BOY BACK AT IT AGAIN WITH THE GROUCH TF2 BALANCE CHANGES!!!
"Just melee the vac-Medic"
... What are you talking about?
Check the Description for a whole bunch of information. Made sure to include chapters for those who have already seen his video. The Eureka Effect was left out since he decided the idea was bad in the follow-up, and it as connected to a section like the Machina was. I'll update this comment as needed.
22:25 i think that if one or two snipers is stopping twelve people from making meaningful progress on the objective, that NEEDS to be temporary, if not impossible.
I like that you have gameplay of various games that are dependent on different parts of his video. Thats very clever of ya.
I think a core of the issue with 'Fat Scout' and attempts to fix it is that most shotguns excel at the same range that the minigun does. So your subclass is trying to do The Same Thing As Your Main Class.
- I actually like the chocolate bar rework but it shouldn’t replace the current version. Would be nicer as a new weapon. Would also need some number tweaks
- I think the cleaners carbine change is near perfect due to the synergy it has with the mini crit stat, as well as the fun factor of turning your SMG into an assault rifle temporarily.
The issue with that chocolate bar rework is it's actually forcing heavy to constantly have to unrev his gun to dip in and out of fights constantly. And in team fights he's a massive target so that not very viable. The moment he unrev his gun you can bet at least 3 crosshairs are aimed at him since now he's an easy target.
I would much prefer if the thing has multiple charges and you can use all charges at once while a single charge can be weak like Grouch's.
@ not saying it’s perfect, just that I like the base concept
@@alexcrisman1954 the concept is encouraging a very cowardly Heavy play style is what I read from Grouch’s idea here. But hey everyone’s entitled to an opinion these days.
I had an idea for the Huo-Long Heater. Every ten or fifteen seconds, the Minigun can belch a ball of fire, similar to the Scorch Shot, and cause an AoE Afterburn effect on the targets within its blast radius. Also, make the fire ring a fire bubble.
The enforcer rework was actually really strong, I tried his server and every spy was using it. You don't need to hard fan, you can just time your shots to have a faster firing stock with similar damage. You do lose a bit of your range but for gunspy it's rather strong.
Interesting. Thanks for the first-hand feedback.
I really like the big selection of games and their music in the background.
Very cool 👍
1:01:24 rarely i can find someone speak up against spy discrimination, on point with observations.
I love the background gameplay of decades old obscure games like the Daryl Dixon game and Wario GameCube game
Wait, a kunai is a dibber? ...you could make a kunai that does self-bleed on a miss and call it the Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibber.
Im rating this 8/8 seconds of bleed
I will be one of pleased to see what your able to make in rebalance, as a critic you had been.
Curious being would you focus on "your" personal vision, or were you interested to heard some input?
You replied to almost every single comment and none of them are readable. This feels like mashing the autosuggested words your phone keyboard gives you.
@@jc_art_ glad you see all of them
They're UA-cam comment get over them
Well this was... I'll be honest, I don't know much about TF2, specifically the gameplay, I know stuff like some of the lore and the memes, but I've not played the game itself, so a lot of this went a bit over my head. But game balance is a good thing to talk about, especially because it's not easy to do, and as someone wanting to make his own games, it is a thing I need to learn. I can also appreciate the games being shown for background footage kinda fitting with the class being talked about currently
One neat example of game balance that I like is the nerf to Dan in Street Fighter 5 that got rid of his infinite, specifically a change to his Gadoken move, quote, "Gadoken has been modified to have a random chance of activating an enhanced version of the attack" "The enhanced version has a longer range than the normal version. It can knock down opponents and create chances for follow-ups when it hits, and when the opponent guards, Dan has the advantage" basically making a change that still lets Dan do his infinite as a loop but stops him from doing it the whole match if he can, by knocking down the opponent. It's a nerf that doesn't totally change the use of Gadoken, but rather prevent something that could happen, and be rather annoying; Not a full nerf or overhaul of Gadoken, but still something that keeps Dan in check. And considering Dan is kind of a joke character, especially in the earlier Street Fighter games, it also fits with his personality, since it's kinda like him doing something right by accident, I could easily see Dan going, "Uhh... I meant to do that!" after he pulls it off.
Yeah, most of my audience doesn't seem to have much interest in TF2, or at least not in a specific response video like this.
Infinites take away interact ability between fighting game players, the are bound to fade as the genre modernized
I really like your breakdown on the Natasha. It was way worse than I thought it'd be. The only time I even considered the damage penalty was in passing. I didn't even think of the spin up time
An idea I had for the caber is to make it a mini explosive market gardener. It deals mini crits on a successful blast jump, but only with the explosion itself. It can have its switch speed increased, but not up to the level of stock to keep you from instantly switching to it, so that you actually have to time it. It basically trades Trolldier's longevity and lower skill ceiling for mobility (especially if you use the sticky jumper and loose canon together) and a massive area of effect. After losing the explosive, I'd also have it that instead of the bomb regenerating, it gains a swing speed and switch speed bonus, if it's possible. If that's not possible, though, I'd just have the bomb regenerate.
The idea behind this caber is to give it an actual ambush role that rewards skillful play like the old caber, while being more punishing to those who haven't mastered timing. This concept is also more centered around casual than competitive, because I don't see the caber ever being allowed in that environment.
1:28:50 Wario with his best Raziel impression.
There are *some good ideas. I do think the Eureka Effect having 2 way teleporters could be a good concept but I think that it was a bit too harsh on the penalties. I'd rework it into making it an actual utility item where the Wrench only does like 20-30 damage with no random crits and make it to where the only way to use the special action it can do is if both teleporters are up instead of just the exit with the ability to still go back to spawn if need be.
52:55 I gotta say your pvz gameplay is frustrating
Was not expecting the wario world gameplay but I'm very happy too see it!!!
*W* for Wario World gameplay
This is gonna be the biggest IMO I’ll ever drop:
If more tf2 players played the first two pvz shooter games then we wouldn’t be grasping at straws trying to ether justify the sniper’s current state or trying to find a proper solution to how annoyingly oppressive the sniper is without straight up removing him or any of his unlocks.
Then again the pvz shooter games are by no means saints in terms of balance, and their snipers are no exception, even if it’s because their abilities are what make them annoying to fight against instead of their primary weapon. Although I think the cactus’s primary is more appropriate to translate than captain deadbeard’s primary because captain deadbeard’s primary acts like a low damage semi auto shotgun when not scoped in because the concept of having multiple weapons to switch between is a foreign one to the pvz shooters (so much so, that you have to be specific classes, or “heroes” as the pvz shooters call their classes, in order to even have an option to melee and for 2 of the 4 classes it’s their primary or sometimes only form of damage output besides… *the abilities…* ).
I don't play PvZ, what's the context here? Snipers can be balanced if done right (see CS:GO)
The funniest thing about the Huo Long heater rebalance is the ONLY thing you have to do to make the weapon decent is make the ring togglable like BWR does yes while its still situational its MUCH better also i feel like the SVF was designed with medieval the sole idea in mind yeah in a mode where everyone is locked to either melee or a few specific weapons its.... fine not the best weapon not the worst
Man I fuckin hate sniper but even I think these nerfs/reworks really just missed the mark. I dont want to sit here and play armchair dev so the only change I would suggest is just have reverse damage falloff for his primaries. It retains what he is already good at (long range picks) but forces him to use his melee or SMG in a close range encounter like intended.
To be honest one thing that could help greatily is just, a "Sniper!" quick callout just like the Spy one so at least once you know there's a sniper around the corner and survived for once you can warn whoever else is with you to not temp their fate.
@@simplysmiley4670I mean they have it in mvm and those snipers only body shot
Good vid so far I just wanted to say that while I agree completely with the criticisms with the Hitman's Heatmaker rework I wanted to say that the reason why it was probably chosen to be the sneaky one without tracers was probably because of it having a silencer in the design of the weapon, I agree 100% with everything I just thought it was worth pointing out
nice to see grouch's weapon rebalance video dissected and studied in a lab
Honestly with everything he said for sniper
The most insane thing is him implying a sniper isn't ment to be stealthy
Stealth is like the most basic thing a sniper does
(SCOUT BALANCE CHANGE IDEAS)
(Force-A-Nature)
Left-click to fire each barrel individually.
50% faster fire rate.
Right-click to use Double Shot, which fires both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage.
Double Shot inflicts 40% knockback to enemies and 40% self-knockback while you are airborne.
65 damage at close range.
30 damage at medium range.
10 damage at long range.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 2 shells
Reserve: 32 shells
(Shortstop)
The shortstop is now a sidearm instead of a primary.
Fires bullets instead of shotgun pellets.
Fires 45% faster.
Right click to shove enemies away, causing 20% knockback and does no damage.
Mini-crits on headshot at close range.
50 damage at close range.
40 damage at medium range.
20 damage at long range.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 4 rounds
Reserve: 34 rounds
(Soda Popper)
Each hit fills 10% your HYPE meter.
Once fully charged, press the mouse wheel to activate HYPE, granting you 60% faster attack speed on all weapons, 40% faster reload speed on all weapons, 30% faster switching speed to and from all weapons, 50% faster running speed, and it will only last 10 seconds.
Right-click to fire both barrels simultaneously, dealing two times more damage.
60 damage at close range.
30 damage at medium range.
10 damage at long range.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 2 shells
Reserve: 32 shells
(Baby Face's Blaster)
Movment speed increases with each kill by 10%. (Max: 6 kills)
30 damage at close range.
20 damage at medium range.
10 damage at long range.
You lose all of your speed if you die, get hit by jarate, mad milk, the gas passer, or get stunned by the Sandman.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 8 shells
Reserve: 40 shells
(Back Scatter)
Shooting enemies in the back at close range does mini-crits.
20% more accurate.
30 damage at close range.
20 damage at medium range.
10 damage at long range.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 10 shells
Reserve: 50 shells
(Bonk Atomic Punch)
Grants you invulnerability for 10 seconds.
Recharges for 20 seconds after it wears off.
Immune to all damage, debuffs, and knockback.
You cannot attack, capture control points, or pick up the intelligence while invulnerable.
If you take damage while drinking Bonk, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge.
You cannot drink Bonk while covered in jarate, mad milk, or the gas passer.
Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet.
(Crit-a-Cola)
Gives you mini-crits for 10 seconds, but you will be restricted to your melee weapon. (just like the Buffalo Steak Sandvich)
Recharge for 20 seconds after it wears off.
If you take damage while drinking Crit-a-Cola, it will get canceled and you will have to wait for it to recharge.
You cannot drink Crit-a-Cola while cover in jarate, mad milk or the gas passer.
Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet.
(Mad Milk)
Enemies will be covered in mad milk for 10 seconds.
Recharges for 20 seconds.
10 health per hit on enemies covered in mad milk. (afterburn damage also counts)
Enemies killed while covered in mad milk will replenish 50% of your meter.
Extinguishing a teammate will replenish 90% of your meter.
Reveals spies that are cloaked or disguised.
Disables engineers buildings for 10 seconds.
Disables medics medigun for 10 seconds.
Can be reflected by pyros.
Can be replenish at the resupply cabinet.
(winger)
15% more accurate.
Mini-crits while you are airborne.
Increases jump height with each kill by 10%. (Max: 6 kills)
50% less fall damage while active.
20 damage at close range.
15 damage at medium range.
10 damage at long range.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 6 rounds
Reserve: 36 rounds
(Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol)
Gain 10 health on hit.
no overheal while active.
25 damage at close range.
20 damage at medium range.
15 damage at long range.
(Ammo)
Magazine: 6 rounds
Reserve: 36 rounds
(Flying Guillotine)
On hit causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds.
Recharges for 20 seconds.
Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit.
Can be picked back up if you did not hit an enemy.
Can be replenished at the resupply cabinet.
(Sandman)
Right click to launch baseball.
Hitting enemies in the body will slow them down for 10 seconds.
Hitting enemies in the head will stun them for 3 seconds.
Can be picked up after being launched.
Can be replenished at resupply cabinet.
Ball recharges for 20 seconds.
(Candy Cane)
Enemies killed by Candy Can will drop a health pack.
Drops a small health pack if you kill a spy, sniper, scout, or medic.
Drops a medium health pack if you kill an engineer, demoman, pyro, or soldier.
Drops a large health pack if you kill a heavy.
Increases faster swing speed with each kill by 10%. (Max: 6)
(Boston Basher)
On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds.
On miss: marked for death for 10 seconds.
(Sun-on-a-Stick)
On hit: sets enemies on fire.
Right-click to activate Solar Flare which will blind nearby enemies for 3 seconds.
Solar Flare will recharge for 20 seconds.
Afterburn last 10 seconds.
30% fire resistance while active.
(Fan O War)
On hit: marks enemies for death for 15 seconds. (no longer marks one enemy at a time)
50% less damage.
(Atomizer)
On hit: fills 10% of your INFINITY meter which can give you infinite air jumps for 10 seconds.
right click to activate INFINITY ability.
Does crits whenever it would normally mini-crit.
(Wrap Assassin)
50% less damage.
Right click to launch ornament.
On hit: causes 5 bleed damage for 10 seconds.
Recharges for 20 seconds.
Shatters on impact against surfaces and enemies.
Cannot be picked up after being launched.
Can be replenished at resupply cabinet.
dude people use cheats for the fan doubleshot because its that strong. im not even reading the rest my god
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413most of these changes are their trash or dumb
That guy should never be allowed to balance video games😂
what's the point of all these unnecessary changes?
to that kunai part: it sucks, the knife sucks, it's weak, it's brast beast kind of trap. all it takes to counter is a single pyro, and it doesn't matter how good as a spy you are nor how many sweatlord spies there are on your team, nor how bad the enemy team is. one pyro DOMINATES a kunai spy to an absurd extend. how do I know? I made a losing team win against 3 spy mains with the kunai+dead ringer+amby/DB set equipped, as a pyro, and a demo main (altho that really just shows you how absurdly unfair the spy vs. pyro match-up is, rather than anything else).
also, yeah, the vid sucks, and the moronic hatred against iron bomber is ludicrous, cuz I mainly play with it and it's COMPLETELY different to stock. but play the class, and not many are masochists and alcoholics.
ok, I got triggered by sb attacking my baby.
"sorry for the time investment this video asks of you"
bold of you to assume i don't want a very long and interesting video to play on my second monitor while i draw
Brain slop artist 🙄
Not gonna lie TF2 should have something like this every now and then just to spice things up.
He did it, he added bleed to a weapon in an actual interesting way
The huo-long I think has never needed any kind of change. It is fine as is. "A little extra damage" as he puts it is in fact only 5% less than the brass beast. At stock rev and movement speed. I get people think that's not really worth it, but it is better by far than the changes Grouch proposed, which let's be honest, makes it a weapon designed to steal kills from pyros and nothing else.
Grouch thought giving scout a sniper rifle would be fair smh
The only flaw in this video is him saying that vacc's weakness is melee/untyped damage.
Which isn't true because the vacc dosen't make you prone to untyped damage, it just forces people to use melee or bleed or just run away.
Also to point out that response is assuming that tf2 is played in a vacuum. Medics hide right behind the front lines where there team is, and I don't need to say why running into the enemy team with your melee is a bad idea.
If a medic is out of postion, doesn't matter if they're using vacc, it still takes 3 melee hits to kill him.
But this video is 5 months old, im sure this type of comment has already been written and seen.
Good video!
Edit: forgor to mention that medic can hold the S key to walk away from you if they see you and also have a primary and melee of their own and the pocket if they see that the medic is dying.
22:16 you sounded kinda weird the whole video before that point, but now it seems like you just dont want to change anything. I think ammo is a fine nerf, in fact you may not even need tracer rounds with that
Also yes, close range class such as pyro counter long range class such as sniper, just like swords and pikes countered early muskets!
The Pyro does counter Sniper with the flare guns. Flare guns have an arc but infinite range. In fact, WAY back in old TF2, the Flare Gun being added was a big deal for that reason - it gave a long-range answer to a sniper who lacks cover, but using cover blocks the sniper's line of sight. It was a very big deal.
@@JakeJakers sniper has infinite range and hitscan is undodgable. You can just 3 bodyshot kill a pyro while doing anything but standing still in most sightlines and you will be fine
even worse for pyro if you can actually aim and land a headshot
@@benismann Pyro only needs to bodyshots. I have seen plenty of Pyros counter Sniper in-game. Been killed by a few myself on an old Steam profile.
I swear this dude has an obsesion with bleeding
I just wanted to comment that we had the same train of thought towards Fat scout, tough I originally thought of just making lunchboxes available on the primary slot similar to how the Demoman can use the base jumper, in any of the cases, if it also implemented the idea of removing the damage penalty from the steak and make it not lock you to melee, it could then work for the fatscout playstyle
Free minicrits and a speed boost for no minigun just makes him a more annoying crit a cola scout
@@sgt.zaitsev287 i still think even with the steak speedboost, heavy is nowhere near a comfortable speed place to survive the same as a scout
@@Nedoikobut heavy has more than double scout’s hp as trade off. He also has mini crits meaning in a 1v1 situation he can just run you down with the mini crit shotgun.
You can imagine this similar to old Reserve shooter with Pyro, back when it can mini crit airblasted players. So all Pyro had to do was charge in, airblast, shoots 1-2 times and kills you instantly. And this was on a class with 175 Hp. Imagine a 300hp class doing this to you.
@@theotv5522 maybe a potential solution is that the minicrits apply only to melee, but you're not locked into only using melee, so you're benefiting from the speedboost, and can still switch into your regular shotgun?
40:43 I’m a little confused. You’re against buffing the rocket jumper because Trolldier is “stronger than he has any right to be” but you also want to buff the mantreads, the go-to trolldier secondary?
Sorry for the sconfusion, so let me elaborate: I don't want that particular buff of instant map teleportation with the rocket jump. And I only mention the man treads because, beyond trolldier, me and my friends have found it to be one of the weakest options. the implication was meant to be that it could be given stronger use-cases beyond trolldier Probably should have brought up the B.A.S.E. jumper (since it got nerfed a bit too hard), but the point was that it's weird to think that there's only one soldier weapon (the Righteous Bison) needs a buff.
Hopes this makes a little more sense.
@@JakeJakersomg he can teleport across the map to feed the enemy team! hes too op
Guys i think i can fix the razorback : remove it
Seeing walking dead survival instinct is so wild
Nearly forgot about that game
this is thrice the size of the original video 💀
Unfortunately. As I said, I'm sorry I couldn't structure this into something more palatable time-wise. I hate making videos overly-long like this.
@@JakeJakers i guess that is understandable, i'm glad you responded too. watched the whole video, it was good.
I like how long it is. It gives them plenty of time to say exactly what they need to say. There isnt anything thats drawn out, or unnecessary, all of it is important to getting the points across.
As you mentioned many times through out one of the biggest problems grouch made is completely scraping what is there already with concept totally unrelated.
The things being, some does have potential or interesting.
But what give him right to sentence options doesn't shine in his eye to oblivious out right?
Enforcer's replacement both had development going for them with a little adjust to go, but why are you devaluating the fine pierce tool ?
The Natasha for either feels too cheap/broken to use or not needed at all. Stock or Tomi can do a good enough job. Natasha is overkill
10/10 graphics
10/10 audio
10/10 hit on bleed
Review for this break down 10/10
“It good”
His mini gun changes really get under my skin , I'm a 900 hour heavy main and I can tell you heavy doesn't have a bad mini gun they just require a diffrent mindset and playstyle
Support with natasha
Aggressive or ambush with the heater
Hyper defensive with the beast
Issue with Beast is you're essentially corner camping, and to do that effective you need to be around busy chokes/corners to mask your gun. Otherwise the loud noise will just alert everyone of your position and they can deal with you easy.
This then leads to the problem of being in a busy choke as a heavy. So at best you kill 1-2 unaware people, and then die because you can't run away as a Heavy quickly before the rest of their team sees you. So you're not planning to get out alive when doing this strat (You're basically a human land mine if that make sense).
The damage bonus, as someone has calculated, doesn't matter since you're really killing them in 0.5 seconds instead of 1 second. Heavy has the highest dps at mid-close range so the bonus is just irrelevant. People use it in MvM because there you're fighting bots with up to 15k HP instead of the max 450HP heavy you see in PvP. In PvP your survival matters more than damage, and the BB just not let you have that.
This video would've been better if it gave bleed for 8 seconds.
I’ve played the server and the Darwin’s rework is incredibly fun, to the point where the main reason to play the server is using it.
If that were to be a thing, i'd rather it be a separate weapon. Like giving him Super Mario Boots. I'm still not big on the idea.
Darwin is the one weapon deserved replaced completely (arguably most backpack secondary too).
But, if were to elaborate on this jumpy i have suggestion.
The same jump ability requires resource to initiate.
Taken 65 damage enable 1 jump, can stored up to 150 disposable.
This make it so encourages sniper to act closer to frontline and taking risk (damaged), then reward for mobility option responsibly.
While a dominating sniper couldn't abuse position again avenging sniper fail to lay a hand on, sitting comfortably far behind also won't do anything.
ok i wanted to do a full review because the first time i saw this i acted rashly gonna do it here where i can get extra feedback. (i'm not gonna be very specific though, similar to grouch)
and will attempt to change his ideas to better balance them out, not every weapon is salvageable though, i will mention them when they come.
heavy primaries: (this is gonna be a chain of comments where each comment will focus on a slot or character)
Natasha: good concept, terrible execution, when it comes to TF2 speed is king it must always come with the reduction to either health or damage, something that Grouch missed with this weapon but got with both the buffalos stake and the Darwin's danger shield, but i think part of it is because the Natasha already had a damage nerf (as weak as it really is because the type of weapon Natasha is)
my change for the weapon is to remove the damage penalty at the cost of a much harsher damage fall off and a 50 max health reduction, allowing the Natasha to specialize in specifically close range combat and big ambushes where you shove yourself onto the enemy, the extra speed will allow you to remain in close range for longer securing more kills then usual from the worse fall off while the max health reduction will allow you to be stopped easier.
in the case the weapon is still overpowered i would consider reducing your speed when revved up to be less oppressive in the chase (but not back to the old rev speed just slightly slower) or give the Natasha a wider spread of bullets making you miss more often which helps your enemies both in chases and in time during direct combat.
Brass beast: this change in unsalvageable, 200 extra bullets don't help with the problem of the BB and it doesn't fix the problem grouch pointed out.
Hue long Heater: the concept is terrible, once again he pointed out the problem where it's a little worse most of the time and a little better some of the time but it's out of your control, making the weapon extra polarizing doesn't help the weapon, once again the balance change is unsalvageable.
heavy secondaries:
Delokohs bar: grouch definitely went too far here, he had a point with what he was trying to do to our snack making it consumed faster, it helps every use of the delokohs bar, you get more time with your extra health, you can preform the GRU glitch faster, you can heal up quicker then the banana or sandwich.
the main problem is that he also reduced the health gotten from the bar, my change is simple, revert the healing reduction back and recharge rate to the original value but keep the time it takes to eat the bar smaller then it's original point.
BSS: the big problem is definitely as you pointed out, the fact that it gives you a damage vulnerability above the melee lock, but the change grouch suggested isn't as bad as it seems, eating the BSS faster allows you to start your rampage sooner and in more situations, but i do still disagree with making it deploy and holster faster it does that quick enough already, my only change is to revert the deploy and holster bonus.
the family business: this is unsalvageable, he attempted to do a complete reform of the gun to fat scout only, locking your 2ndary to the big business and your primary to nothing, if i were to ever add a fat scout class to TF2 it would be through a shotgun to the primary slot not a change to the family business (which imo needs to be multiclass instead of the reserved shooter because that gun fits 3 out of 4 shotgun users lore wise unlike the reserve shooter)
sniper changes:
i actually would generally agree with these changes but change some stuff, for examples, i would keep the classic's air tracers and give the Sidney sleeper those tracers as well (rather then the normal tracers everyone else is getting)
i would also be more with FSOAS when it comes to the ammo department where sniper needs a clip that doesn't reload automatically, instead of just gutting the ammo pool of sniper by half, now sniper doesn't allow a functionally permanent lockdown of a part of a map due to him having a clip.
Sniper primaries:
HMHM: if you look deep you realize the heat maker still has half the ammo pool meaning the only downside it doesn't get is the tracer rounds, well let's change that.
instead of 66% less body shot damage return it to 20% and instead add the classic's air tracers.
Machina: jeeze what was the point of this nerf? the Machina didn't need it just revert it to the current version.
sniper 2ndaries:
DDS:
what is this shit? a sniper that's just as fast as scout but can also jump higher? pretty sure it matches with a scout that double jumped using the fucking WINGER!
this is not what the shield was designed for and the buff is unsalvageable, every buff to a sniper's movement speed is basically a nuclear bomb to TF2 game balance.
Razorback back: just revert it to the current form, there is no need for a Wet piss blanket, it doesn't protect you from spies at all it does nothing. unsalvageable.
also the overheal removal was for you not being able to tank both a backstab AND a headshot, not spy's revolver.
Cozy camper: W H Y ? ! this is once again unsalvageable and needs to be reverted back to the current item immediately! current cozy camper isn't even unbalanced, there was no reason for him to include it in the video.
cleaner's carbine: once again you are correct in your assessment, grouch's fix is welcomed but unnecessary. i don't think i should even talk about it because it changes nothing when it comes to the problem of the weapon (aka the firing speed)
Sniper melee:
Shahansha (or as i like to call it the Shanshanasha): once again polarizing a weapon doesn't make it better, if anything it make the Shanshanasha worse, and unsalvageable nerf to a hard to implement concept, revert to current form.
Tribalman's shiv: why did he reduce it's damage? it didn't need it a nerf, keep the extra bleed but return the damage to as it was before grouch's change.
solider's bison: eh he did a good enough job, but i don't think it is the best concept this thing could offer, just like you i'm conflicted.
scout's candy cane: revert to original, this is unsalvageable, idk what made you change a specific downside to a general one and MAKE IT WORSE but you sure did it grouch.
Demo's caber: this is truly unsalvageable, more then 400 explosive recoil damage is just stupid, triple building damage is smart in the context that you have nothing against buildings, sadly this is demoman we are talking about and a melee is the worst slot to place it in, as for random crits it's truly a screw you moment.
Demo's Iron bomber: grouch forgot that small differences can be good the Iran bomber's pills are made in a way where it's easier to use them for jumps, this alone is a massive upside which puts it above stock for me, so turning it to a carpet bomber is a no on my end, please revert to original because this weapon shouldn't have been discussed.
Why nobody notices that family business has 8 rounds not 7
Every weapon should just kill you when it runs out of ammo so you can have full ammo faster
WHY DO YOU PUT YOUR SUNFLOWERS IN FRONT OF THE PEA SHOOTERS
It's actually because the Sunflowers are more replaceable. It gives the Peashooters the max amount of time to kill something that breaks through the defenses.
The only way to fix sniper is to add fall off.
6:50 Natascha in rebalance mods does the exact same thing as Grouch's idea.
Nobody really cares that you seem to dislike it, but it did work on every rebalance mod that had the same idea.
I dont know, no reason to really continue watching this video when it starts with such a low note...
Eyyo we happy few gameplay! I love that game even tho it was stuck in development hell
Bleed for 8 seconds
Warioworld gameplay 🗣📈📈🗣📈🗣📈🗣📈📈🗣📈🗣📈🗣📈🗣📈📈🗣📈🗣📈📈🗣
Game designer here. I haven't watched Grouch's video and probably will not finish yours, but, RE: Huo-Long Heater.
It makes a lot of sense to make it worse without pyro and better with one? To make both upsides and downsides more prominent is a classic design technique to give an option a defined niche, in this case, a weapon you use when you are on call with a pyro player. Whether stock damage + no falloff is sufficient to accomplish that is debatable, but it is a step in a good direction.
The same goes for Brass Beast. It makes sense to make a "sentry gun" to be better at sentry gunning instead of trying to make it faster. I agree that extra ammo would probably not be sufficient, but it probably allows more flexibility with positioning at cheeky spots instead of being superglued to a dispenser.
Thanks for responding - it's always cool to talk to a game designer. but the issue is that those two weapons are TOO niche, especially the Hou-Long Heater. His "buff" to the heater makes it ONLY good at comboing with a Pyro, when it needs use beyond that. For example, if he just added a single change where it gets the Tomisolv's faster rev-up, it also becomes a better ambush minigun and helps mitigate the ammo consumption of the ring of fire. But that lower damage against non-burning targets would encourage the player to be more of an ambush Heavy instead of just stalking a Pyro.
@@JakeJakers I don't think it's a realistic problem, honestly. Pyro is a very popular class, and while maybe my perception is skewed by Uncletopia's class limits, I don't think I've been in any matches without a single pyro, and generally pyros and heavies tend to be within line sight of each other so it's not like either will have to go out of their way to make such version of Huo-Long Heater work.
I can easily imagine how in a defence scenario a pyro can enable a distant heavy to put serious pressure on the enemy. On, say, Snakewater last heavy can defend right, and have a pyro hanging around shutter (or vice versa).
Generally, the main problem with miniguns is that they are same-y, with neither their downsides nor upsides demanding much change in play style, and forced cooperation sounds like something that will make players to play differently than with stock.
Is it perfect? Probably no. Your suggestions of either giving it tighter spread or faster rev up time are undeniably sound, but I think the core idea is a step the right direction. Ultimately it's all navel gazing, the game will never receive balance updates anyway, and it's much more useful to think abstractly rather than getting bogged down in specifics.
@@AliceLoverdrive Oh, my issue isn't the LACK of pyro. It's that a Pyro often doesn't need much help. The you describe would work with Grouch's version, but I'd rather not have weapons, especially primary weapons, be THAT situational in the first place. Which is where I take issue with the rebalance video - calling something a buff while making the very issue worse.
And I think there's value in the Naval gazing from simply encouraging critical thinking in the first place. plus, it's pretty fun.
PLANTS VS ZOMBIES NIGHT MUSIC AND GAMEPLAY
Dogwater opinions get trashed, backpedal ensues. Rinse and repeat for content farming
The crazy part of his favorite wrench being the sh is that he constantly complains about boring weapons and plays with the most boring wrench? I feel like theres a joke about it doing bleed damage in here
The thing I take from his video is he has a cowardly play style; as in he likes gimmicks that only need to hit the enemy once or twice and let the weapon does it's thing, even if said thing is weak af. Then he gaslight himself into thinking said thing is not so bad.
I have the impression you're okay with the natascha's slow down gimmick. Also, if you think it's overkill to nerf sniper's ammo capacity, remember that sniper can kill any class in the game instantly whilst only being 4 pixels tall on their screen.
If anything Grouch was too lenient when nerfing sniper
His rebalance video and the follow up has made sure I never watch his content, all of the changes are soooooo bad yet he defends most of them or makes them worse in the follow up.
TF2 weapon rebalance takes were so horrible, even the Dead Rising youtuber was pissed off.
I kinda left TF2 after Jungle Inferno so i might be wrong... But doesn't sniper already have a tell in form of a laser dot?
It does, but it's only visible on a wall, meaning you have to not be looking at the battlefield.
@JakeJakers As many people have said sniper is somewhat overpowered, but i think he's not unbeatable. It's just that to effectively deny him having a good gamesense is crucial, if you don't plan on changing classes to counter the sniper, that is. I wouldn't mind seeing something done with the class, purely for the sake of experementation, though