If you like this video please hit the subscribe button or Buy Me a Coffee - buymeacoffee.com/justinacaseoldschoolstyle. Thanks for your attention & support!! Have a nice day!!
A Ferrari specialist told me that if an expensive one is wrecked by an accident .....its possible that 3 new ones are 'born' : 1 with Original engine , 1 with original gearbox and 1 with original frame .......😁
That is why this story is confusing: the "fake" car is not really fake, it just has the wrong serial number on it. It would be fake if it was a replica with the serial number of an original. But that is not the case here. These appear to all be real cars from the manufacturer, albeit stolen and with incorrect serial numbers welded on.
Great point, it's not a 'replica' in the traditional sense. The term 'fake' can get tricky here because these are authentic cars from the manufacturer, but their altered serial numbers are what cause the controversy. It blurs the lines between authenticity and legal legitimacy. This complexity is what makes the story so fascinating! Thanks for sharing your insight!
I also heard somewhere that Ferrari also recycles the ID numbers of wreaked cars if they are limited production specials. They manufacture a new car but stamped with the numbers of the wreaked one.
It's not the brand itself, individuals like Klaus Kinkle represent a different level of manipulation entirely. It’s one thing for a manufacturer to reassign numbers for wrecked cars with transparency; it’s another for private actors to exploit systems dishonestly.
I think this is a case of an old time con man who didn't adapt with technology. In the pre-internet days it was a lot easier to get away with such VIN alterations or substitutions. He probably assumed that either the car he borrowed the numbers from no longer existed, or it wouldn't matter one day if two cars with the same VIN surfaced in different continents. Kienle kept running the same con game for way too long.
Good point! The pre-internet era definitely allowed for a lot more ambiguity when it came to VIN numbers and car histories. Kienle-or anyone else in similar situations-probably never anticipated how interconnected and traceable everything would become. As technology caught up, it exposed a lot of practices that may have seemed easier to get away with in the past. It's fascinating (and a bit sobering) to see how the digital age has reshaped the world of classic car authenticity. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
@justincase9014 I know of another German guy that had a shop in Santa Ana California and took cars in from clients to restore and sold shipped to buyers overseas. He strung these people along for years. He was one of the Germans that came over from sweeping the floors in the 300SL department at MBZ and flew over and were magically 300 SL specialists.
This reminds me of something that happened here in Australia. In the early 1970's, Ford Australia made 300 Falcon GTHO's. These rare high powered cars are now worth up to $1,000,000 if in perfect condition. There has been something of a cottage industry of people buying standard XY series Falcons, painting them and installing parts to make them look like GTHO's, but not necessarily with the correct 351 Cleveland V8 engine and correct extra strong gearbox, nor the correct diff, etc. About 25 years ago Ford Australia put out a press release stating that it had come to their attention that there were more than 300 GTHO's registered. Buyer beware!
when i was in uni, another student had an XY Fairmont that he had spent time and money on, and made a "HO" replica out of it, he didn't mind telling if you chatted to him about it, as he was proud of his vehicle - and that XY went hard. Anyway his XY was broken into and they only stole one item - the dash clock - apparently there are as scarce as when you are trying to build a replica ... he still had a hole on his dash when i finished uni
As a long time Holden/Brock fan, it pleases me greatly to read that Ford behaved with such ethics regarding their iconic GTHO. Thank you! 🙂 Somewhere in storage I have a blank HDT ID plate. When I was retrenched from their service department by Charlie Savage for 'working too slowly', the plate happened to still waiting to be fitted, in my toolbox. I've often thought about just what such a genuine blank plate could be worth in the classic car market. It's Ok to dream about doing something but never actually 'do it', isn't it? 🤔 Actually, I prefer the idea of retaining the plate myself, just to recall my time at HDT, & with Brock, where I saw things I'd never have seen or known otherwise. I'd left Holden's Experimental Engineering (where VN body shells were everywhere while the VL was still current) to work at HDT after the break-up between Holden & Brock over the 'polarizer period', of which I fitted a number of. Until 2013 when Holden sad goodbye to Oz, I'd often wished that I'd stayed with Holden. C'est la vie! I had other fun times in the industry, including QA at Kenworth Trucks & 15 years with RACV/RACT delivering roadside service, setting some KPI records, too. Mercedes-Benz' apparent behaviour in the investigation, detailed here, is no surprise to me. German auto brands have already shown their true colours in the VW/Porsche emissions scandals that didn't interrupt their overall sales for very long, and also throughout the '30s & '40s. Zig! Only money matters; & it's BIG money in cars. I worked on RR-Bentley servicing & restoration for 3 years, not long after leaving HDT. The truly rich have so much spare money, they often spend large amounts on any investment or passion.
@@keithammleter3824 Don't forget the matching specially coloured other components in those packages ...I was hopeful that Brock actually knew about some things that 'we' didn't, but not really believing it all. If customers wanted those packages fitted, who was I to say no? There have been far more hurtful things sold in Australia ...like a nuclear-powered future in Oz, but I digress. I'd vote for polarizers before trump or dutton, though. We might still have an Oz car industry, but now we can have a nuclear industry? Nuclear has no emissions we should ever be concerned about, or did I forget something? 🤔 Long live my Aussie made 1996 1.8l Corolla! It was great around Melbourne's traffic, & it's fabulous along Tassie's often winding but mostly quiet roads. It doesn't swallow too much fuel, or tyres, and can use the whole of my lane for my legal driving pleasure.
To begin my drive home from Medford, OR in 1998, I entered I5 highway & headed south. Just as I merged onto the righthand lane I noticed a Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing in the lane next to me.. Realizing How much this car was worth I decided to exit the highway & wait a few minutes to let it get ahead of me. Way ahead of me. I didn't want to take a chance of running into by mistake. I'd loose the ability to have liability insurance for the rest of my life.
😶 Smart move-no one wants to explain to their insurance company why they played bumper cars with a multi-million-dollar classic! But hey, it seems someone uses it as a daily driver.
A Gullwing is a miserable car to drive any distance. They are hot and loud inside. Don't take out the side windows when going over 90 mph. Why you ask. The rear window will pop out when you get to 100 mph. That was my friends $2500 lesson. Give me a 300SL roadster any day. I have owned both.
@@scotsoaring5373 Thanks for sharing your experience-it's always great to hear from someone who's owned both! I've heard similar feedback about the Gullwing's quirks, especially on long drives. That $2500 rear window lesson sounds painful! It seems like the roadster's open-top design and added comfort make it the better choice for enjoying the 300 SL's magic.
The most important word in the world of collector cars is provenance. Having the ability to trace the history of a vehicle back to its manufacture is critical in proving provenance.
Provenance is everything ! It's like a vehicle's fingerprint-telling the story of where it's been and validating its authenticity. Without it, even the most beautiful cars can lose their shine. Thanks for highlighting this crucial aspect!"
But are the cars really fake? If it is stolen and has the number from a wreck applied to it, it is still a genuine car, just a renumbered one. If is was just a number and completely remanufactured using real parts, it’s still a real car too. Most ‘complete restorations’ fall into this category.
Great point, it highlights the complexity of what we define as 'authentic' in the car world. If a car is renumbered but still made from genuine parts, it occupies a gray area between restoration and reconstruction. However, the key issue often lies in transparency. When buyers or collectors are unaware of a car's true history, if it was stolen or significantly altered, it becomes a matter of ethics rather than just mechanics. The line between a 'genuine car' and a 'replica' depends on how much of the original remains and how the story is told.
If the numbers are changed at any point after leaving the Factory.....it has to be 'forged'. It is difficult to correct the truth. It seems possible though but the car belongs to the original family or insurance organisation. Or whatever the LAW decides .....
@@ivankuljis1780 You bring up an excellent point! Changing numbers post-factory does raise significant concerns about authenticity and legality. In cases like these, the law and proper documentation are crucial in determining rightful ownership or historical accuracy. Such details can make or break a car's legacy. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
Not long ago we would have Sunday Cars and Coffee events in Montecito. One day we had up to 3-4 300SL gull wings together! One belongs to a friend and his tale is quite special. He originally was a mechanic, and was tasked with finding a gull-wing for a customer. After a long of work, he found a car! Alas! That customer changed his mind, and the mechanic worked out a deal with that customer by getting him to carry papers for him, essentially stretching out payments for him. He owns it still today, and drives it occasionally! Stunning!
What an incredible story! It’s amazing to hear about someone working their way to 300SL-it really shows how much passion can make dreams a reality. Having 3-4 Gullwings together at a Cars and Coffee must’ve been an unforgettable sight! Thanks for sharing that-I bet your friend's 300SL has some incredible tales to tell on the road!
I have a real passion for classic and actual cars.I even do restoration but just for myself. 20 years ago, my first classic car was a Mercedes Pagoda SL and it was the cost of cheap brand new car to dealershop (Pagoda in good conditions but not perfect). Now it costs 80 to 140k€ so the price of a luxury brand new car like a Porsche 992. A professional offers a nut and bolt restoration for 220k€. I even remember than a Dino 246GT wasn't so expensive 25 years ago... Now prices have totally increased and buyers are a bit mad or too rich ! The Rudi Klein "Junkyard"'s auction sales is an excellent demo of such crazyness. A Porsche 356B Drauz Roadster has been sold $70,000 ! A highly crash car, without motor but registration plates ! The funniest ( I guess) is that Rudi Klein has certainly been paid to take off that car from a car crash by the insurance... He certainly bought the Porsche for few hundred bocks in the 80's. Then sold the motor and gearbox if they were in good conditions to make a little profit. 40 years after, the junk car looks like gold ! At $70,000, you can have a second hand Corvette C8 with 10.000 miles, perfect conditions ! Something is wrong !
Thanks for sharing your experiences! It’s fascinating to hear about your journey with classic cars, especially the Mercedes Pagoda SL-what a gem! And yes, the market has gone a bit wild. The Porsche 356B story is a perfect example of how nostalgia can create a frenzy. It’s crazy to think a crash-damaged shell can outvalue a modern, high-performance car like the Corvette C8. Do you think this trend will ever cool down, or are we in for even more inflated prices.
@@justincase9014 Yes the Pagoda is an excellent car but to my opinion prices are too expensive now. I plan to buy a 560SL ( R107). A better motor, AC, electric windows and cruise control... For 25/30k€, it's possible to buy a car in good conditions. It's complicated to make plans concerning the prices of classic cars because new generations isn't attracted very much with cars to my opinion. Coupes, convertibles and sport cars will increase because of rarity. Most of all, new rich clients from China, India... will make increase classic cars market because some cars weren't imported in 60/80's.
Great point about the rising prices of the Pagoda and the appeal of the 560SL. The R107 offers a lot of modern comforts and reliability while still maintaining that classic Mercedes charm-definitely a solid choice for that price. Predicting the classic car market is tricky, especially with shifting generational interests and the influence of emerging markets like China and India. It’ll be interesting to see how the demand for these rare coupes and convertibles evolves in the next decade. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
The same thing has happened with Jag C and D types, bent chassis parts which had numbers were rebuilt into cars which were essentially clones of the original that had had new chassis parts fitted, for that matter, more Edwardian furniture from the UK has been exported than was ever made during the Edwardian period, the only difference is the value of the "antiques" Classic warbirds are "restored" after being dug out of bogs where in reality the only parts that go onto the new aircraft are the numbers, plus anything salvegable, it is the numbers that are the thing!
Great point. it’s fascinating how much importance is placed on those numbers, almost as if they carry the soul of the original item. Whether it’s classic cars, warbirds, or antiques, it really highlights how our perception of authenticity is shaped. Do this approach preserves history or just creates high-value replicas, who knows!!
If you are buying a car worth so much money surely you would first get an expert to check the chassis/Vin number and everything else to confirm the identity before purchase. There are many classic cars of similar value but missing chassis numbers should be ringing alarm bells before you have parted with your money. But it is known that sometimes a chassis can be purchased by one person and another person can find an engine that originally belonged to that chassis and both people build a car around what they have. This is why there is one more ERA vintage race car than the company ever produced.
You're right, and that’s a good point. The process of verifying a classic car’s identity, especially one of high value like the Mercedes-Benz 300 SL, is standard practice for serious buyers. However, the scandal involving Kienle shows how even these safeguards can be manipulated when forgery comes into play. The issue here lies in the sophistication of the forgery. Kienle was not only altering or forging chassis numbers but also creating falsified documentation to support these alterations. This meant that even diligent buyers relying on paper trails and supposed “expert” checks could be deceived.
@@justincase9014 Ihope he's jumpred on from a great height by the courts as it destroys confidence in the high end class ic car market, But where ever there are items of high value you will always find the odd crook out to make a buck.
A Ferrari specialist told me that if an expensive one is wrecked by accident .....its possible that 3 new ones are 'born' : 1 with Original engine , 1 with original gearbox and 1 with original frame .......
I run a restoration company. I have always been very careful when I identifying these special cars. It takes a deep look. I have worked on cars that were sold to customers where the terrible stories they tell us of previous restorations come to light. Parts being stolen from their cars is not uncommon. This is a very bad story. The question is how many of these 300 Sl‘s have been altered. Mercedes does have the data cards. They have vast amounts of original build information available to them. Cars can be verified. But it takes some work. Apparently, this guy was getting pretty good at faking things.
As someone who works directly in restoration, your perspective is invaluable! It’s truly alarming how many stories surface about shady practices, especially with iconic cars like the 300 SL. You’re absolutely right about the importance of verifying authenticity through data cards and original build information; it’s a painstaking process, but essential to preserve the integrity of these legends. The fact that someone could get so adept at faking details speaks volumes about the need for vigilance in the community. Have you ever come across a 300 SL with questionable provenance in your line of work? It must be a tricky but rewarding challenge to restore these cars the right way.
Mercedes will NEVER tell anything about this because this would destroy the market. If you run a restoration company you know the game as well as I do. You keep your mouth shut.
@africadreamin Haha, 😁you're probably right! Land Rovers have such a love-hate relationship with their fans. They can break your heart, but they also have that charm that keeps pulling you back. What’s your experience with them?
Oh, I was planning to purchase 4 Mercedes 300 SL. Instead, a Morris Marina and an Austin Allegro 'll be a safer, sheltered investment. Quite a relief ! Neverthless, gray humour aside, the Gentleman who bought the Car as an asset for his Foundation deserves simpathy and Justice
Haha, a Morris Marina and an Austin Allegro - now those are investments that scream 'collector's gold'! On a serious note, I agree - the Gentleman’s intentions were admirable, and he certainly deserves respect and fairness.
@justincase9014 Thank you for your comment. A Marina and an Allegro ! Nobody is going to Forge the Chassis Numbers. In that sense, I'll be Safe. As Bernard Shaw wrote, "If he is not a Gentleman, let him be Poor".
Truly a duo that proves 'style' is subjective. 'A fashion is nothing but an induced epidemic,' and I suppose these cars remind us why some epidemics are best left contained.
I know of several racing cars (gt/saloon) who were totaled and afterward the chassis number was removed to be welded in another body. That was "normal" practice in the 60-90's. Sometimes you'll get two cars with the same number, one with the welded serial number and the other restamped. The last one because people thought the original car was destroyed.....
Тhis was a pretty common practice, especially with high-value cars. The combination of frequent crashes and the high stakes of racing meant chassis numbers were sometimes reused or swapped, leading to the 'two cars, one number' issue you mentioned. It definitely complicates the history and authenticity of some cars today. Thanks for adding this!!
@@justincase9014 friend of mine had a racing GT. Bought as non running from the importer with title. Stood under a blanket for over 20 years when suddenly an exact copy appeared, with the same title on a German Motorshow.... He had to reclaim his title and prove his car was the original one! The copy appeared later again with a different chassis number.....
It’s crazy how these kinds of situations can happen. Your friend must have had quite the battle to reclaim his title-proving authenticity. Do you know what eventually happened to the copy with the altered chassis number, it should be punishable.
@@justincase9014 his was the original factory racing GT with the correct paperwork. There were also converted versions, with factory racing parts. The only big difference was the engine. Factory cars had a Kugelfisher injection. The copy got its original chassisnumber back and became a conversion car.... There are a lot of scams with chassis numbers. In the UK, during the 80's, we were offered complete bulkheads including chassis numbers with papers, from a scrapped aluminium bodied cars....
That’s a wild story- It’s fascinating how chassis number scams have been such a longstanding issue in the car world. It must have been a relief for your friend to see the situation resolved with his car recognized as the original factory model. The details about the Kugelfischer injection and the conversions are really interesting too! Those scrapped aluminum-bodied bulkheads with papers sound like a whole other layer of shadiness. The lengths some will go to in the classic car market are unbelievable!
You hear about this going on for years and people still don't learn. It is always the excuse someone put down the wrong number on the title. Different countries different laws.
You’re absolutely right-it’s surprising how often these stories come up, yet they still catch people off guard. The title excuse does seem to be a common thread in many of these cases. Different countries and laws definitely make things more complicated.
what i cant understand, MB sold like xxxxx 300SL's all with a chassis number, how and why would you give it a new/different number - and how would you obtain thas chassis number?
The process of renumbering chassis, often happened when cars were rebuilt after accidents, or during restoration projects to make them appear more desirable or original. A new chassis number could be obtained through less-than-legitimate channels, or sometimes even by salvaging a number from a wrecked or scrapped car. This practice wasn't uncommon in the high-stakes world of vintage car trading, where the 'right' number could significantly increase a car's value.
@@justincase9014 Yes, there are thousands of "recovered Titles". They are constructed from insurance writeoffs at a used care auction. They will take 3 Maseratis and construct a "new" one from the pieces and parts. Some unlucky fool will buy one, and it will have lots of problems. Maserati gets blamed for making crappy automobiles.
How would you obtain that chassis, rear axle, engine, etc… numbers to re-create a matching numbers car ? I can’t fathom how they do it as it’s technically impossible.
Thanks for sharing your feedback! I understand that music can be a personal preference, and it doesn’t always resonate with everyone. I aim to enhance the content with background music but will definitely consider balancing it better or reducing its presence in future videos. Your honesty helps me improve!
@@justincase9014 thank you for your polite reply. Consider…….you go to a seminar, an opening of something etc etc…….there is never some idiot on a piano accompanying the orator, never. If it worked, I promise everyone would add it. The curse of You Tube is this annoying habit of feeling the need to add irritating music as if it adds something, it doesn’t. Your videos will be enhanced by the content, nothing more. I am not alone in finding “music” irritating. I bet if you drop it, nobody will cry out…”where’s the irritating music?” I wish you all the best.
In 1984 a 300sl gullwing was getting photos taken next door. When they went to load it backwards into the custom enclosed trailer that also had a gullwing hatch. The guy backing the 300 up the ramps did not have anybody buying him. More was he using the mirrors. He would twist his body and look thru the rear window. Doing this caused him to turn the steering wheel slightly. After 3 or 4 tries he had destroyed all the wheel well eyebrows getting the car going thru the opening at an angle. My boss would not let me stop him. That's none of your business he said. I wonder what happened to that car and who ever was driving it. The things you see in Hollywood ca.. this was just north of pinks hotdogs in the alley.
Wow, what a story! It’s painful just imagining the damage to such a legendary car. Sounds like a perfect storm of carelessness and bad judgment. The fact that your boss wouldn’t let you step in makes it even more frustrating. It’s crazy to think moments like this can happen with such valuable cars. Hollywood truly has its share of wild automotive tales! Thanks for sharing.
Interesting to hear that these stories go back as far as the '80s! It seems like Kienle’s reputation has been a topic of discussion for quite some time. Did you hear about it firsthand, or was it something that circulated in the community back then?
@justincase9014 I restored MBZ here in California and had 2 clients that had experienced some problems. He has an excuse for everything and makes it out to be a common practice. It was not a common practice for me. He always seems to be trying to catch up with some problem of his design. The old robbing Peter to pay Paul.
@@unclemuir Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective. It’s always valuable to hear from someone who’s worked hands-on with restorations. It’s unfortunate to hear about the challenges your clients faced-it does seem like a mix of good and bad practices can often muddy the reputation of the community as a whole. I tried to highlight some of these complexities in the video, and your insights definitely add to the conversation!
Buy a modern performance car and enjoy it. If you are lucky and have good fortune, it may increase in value. Let already old performance cars go by the wayside. It's a fool's game.
I buy collectible cars for pleasure but it’s also sort of an investment as these are not really consumables. I would buy a modern car for utility i.e. transportation if I needed it. I would not buy an electric car because I don’t like the idea and these are not practical for long distance journeys. I see modern cars are high series production consumable items… Future classics, maybe but full of plastics which decays and deteriorates by itself as solvents evaporate leading to excessively brittle parts or straight powder. Financially I prefer not to buy high price tag depreciating products such as cars as by choice / decision I can’t afford the depreciation. I however did not hesitate to spend £1 million on prewar Bugatti even if it’s value can go up or down… As a student, my first car was a 1969 TR6 PI with overdrive which I bought in 1989 for about $11,000 at the time. Unfortunately it was stolen from me in Paris whilst I was stuck working abroad during Covid _ the insurance evaluated it at €34,000 in 2019… So not too bad for a car which I was using frequently as a student but of course I kept it maintained in top condition making a lot of the work myself. But yes, it’s a matter of personal preference. Some people prefer new everything whilst others look at things very differently. There are no rights or wrongs; just personal preferences ☝🏽
Thanks for your comment, @classiceuroautoworks! You’re absolutely right that it was a stolen car, not a traditional 'fake.' My use of the term was more about the misrepresentation and deception involved in the case. I appreciate you pointing that out.
extreme greed can sometimes leads to fraud. However, for some collectors, these vehicles represent more than just cars-they’re pieces of history and art. Whether they're 'worth it' often comes down to what someone is willing to pay for craftsmanship, nostalgia, and exclusivity. Appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
@@petesmitt Thanks for your comment, Pete! From the research, there seems to be some debate around his exact role in that deal. Some sources suggest he had a more hands-on involvement, while others describe him mainly as a broker. I’d love to hear if you have additional insights or sources-always happy to dig deeper into the story!
You're absolutely right! The 300 SLR was a purpose-built race car, while the 300 SL (Gullwing) was designed for the street, though it was heavily inspired by the racing technology of the 300 SLR. Thanks for pointing that out-it’s amazing how much innovation Mercedes carried over from their racing program to their road cars!
The only legit answer would be if it was stolen and recovered, I had a 911 that was stolen re vinned and recovered, California issued a new VIN and I bought it- I tried to get the original VIN assigned to the car to no avail
@@keithammleter3824 Many states allocate VIN numbers when a vehicle has been stolen and it's original VIN tags removed or defaced. My friend has a Cadillac Escalade that was a theft recovery and which he purchased thru the insurance salvage auction. It had the door VIN label and metal dash VIN removed. The state assigned a new vin number after being provided with the auction paperwork, etc. Even though he and the insurance company knew the original VIN, he state would not allow that number to be reused. The only time the original VIN is used is when the dealership has to order parts for the vehicle. In the case of imported cars, many states will assign a VIN or possibly even add digits to come up with a 17 digit VIN number for cars that weren't originally intended for the USA market, and which aren't from the era where cars had less than 17 digits in their VIN/chassis numbers. Also many kit cars have state assigned VIN numbers.
@@keithammleter3824 if the car's original VIN was altered or forged, the state could issue a new VIN after a thorough investigation, but this would depend on verifying the car's provenance and legal ownership. Forging or altering a VIN undermines the vehicle's identity and legal traceability.
Great point, @Iconoclasher! There's definitely something special about the simplicity and satisfaction of restoring an old car and enjoying the journey. These days, it feels like the focus has shifted to big horsepower numbers or high-tech mods, but the joy of wrenching and cruising never goes out of style. Thanks for the reminder to keep it fun!
Since collection cars have become a tax shelter and an investment, the entire spirit associated with what you write has practically disappeared and scumbags have grown exponentially in numbers.
@@pascalcs You bring up a very valid point. It's true that the market has seen an influx of investors who prioritize profit over passion. However, I believe the spirit isn't completely gone,there are still many enthusiasts out there who cherish these vehicles for their legacy. It's a tricky balance. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
@@pascalcs Great point. The culture around collector cars has certainly evolved, and not always in ways enthusiasts hoped for. It’s tough to see the focus shift from passion and craftsmanship to pure profit. That said, I think there’s still a community out there who values these cars for their history and spirit. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
That's right, the market for classic cars is unpredictable. Investing in classics is as much about passion as it is about timing and market trends-definitely not for the faint-hearted!
Kienle the Krook. This name was given to him in the 80's. He was known to have produced Air cars. These were serial numbers he just came up with, out of thin air.
Thanks for sharing this bit of history, @scotsoaring5373! The 'Air cars' story definitely adds another layer to the intrigue surrounding Kienle. It's fascinating how certain reputations stick over time.
That's an interesting connection! The concept of rebadging and reselling has a long history and it definitely resonates with the Klaus Kienle story. The Porsche 930 example shows how far some people go in manipulating car histories for profit. Thanks for the engagement!
Klaus Kienle's operation has been under scrutiny because of the resources he had access to as a world-renowned restorer. While the full details are still unfolding, it’s likely that some of the cars in question were created using authentic parts combined with less scrupulous modifications. The alleged manipulation highlights how even experts in the field can blur the line between restoration and replication. Thanks for the question!!
What is meant by "fake"? Is it in reality a VW transformed with clay and wood into MB? Such things happen when the object is judged not by it's phisycal value and looks, but some crazy ideas. Imagine that numbers on ALL the cars are eliminated, then the cars will judged by their looks and technical charachteristics.
The idea of judging cars purely by their looks and technical merits without considering provenance is interesting, but in the collector world, history and originality often hold significant value. It’s a balance between appreciating a car for what it is and the story behind it. How much originality should matter versus the car’s inherent qualities.
@@justincase9014 Yes, the collector world sometimes is very far from reality, never mind what you collect - beer cans or DaVincis. It looks like that the mankind (+womenkind & transkind) is slowly coming to its senses. Thanks for video. MBs were great cars.
Absolutely right-the collector world can sometimes feel detached from the practical value of an item, whether it's cars, art, or anything else. It’s fascinating how societal perspectives on value evolve over time. Glad you enjoyed the video and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
i work in an automotive machine shop and have seen lots of presto change o this is all you need to know when it is worth lots of money that's when to fakes come out and it dose not mater what it is art work , guns , coins , cars , Jewry ! we had a customer that re stamps corvette blocks his work is about ok the only thing that gives it away id his craftsmanship it start off with he peens the old no. so the acid test won't show the old no. then he has the block decked then he grains it to give it that broached look then stamps it . we had a motor that the block was decked and the customer freckled out he would not let the guy in town touch it he sent it somewhere in the Midwest when we got it back all i can way was wow that guy was an artist been around this stuff for 45 years and this was as good as it gets . so when some one tells my they have this or that and its all org. i say well maybe it is and maybe its not !
That part, the temptation to "presto change-o" is huge when a piece is worth a lot of money, and it happens across all collectibles, not just cars! when something gains value, the fakes aren't far behind. The lengths people go to replicate authenticity are incredible, even down to broached finishes
@@justincase9014 the best one of all time is the battery they think the sandy rags were using it to gold plate silver trinkets 2000 years ago oh that is so priceless ! The story goes that Archimedes shouted "Eureka!" after discovering a way to determine the purity of gold using the principle of specific gravity. He was so excited that he jumped out of the bath and ran naked through the streets to tell the king
Fascinating reference to Archimedes! It's wild to how ingenuity-whether 2,000 years ago or in today's world-always finds ways to test the boundaries of what's real and what's fake. The history of forgery really does span all of human creativity. Thanks for sharing that story.
I didn't knew the original 300sl convertibles were worth so much, a friend of my dad had one and he always said he wasn't worth that much. Yeah sure bud 😂
Thank you for your comment! It’s unsettling to think about the lengths people might go to with cars valued at $1.2 million. Especially the guy who put the foundation for his daughter. Such a noble move, and the foundation which is helping so much people in need, could go broke, cuz the greediness of some nasty guy.
Probably as well with some jag model such as the xk and e series. Alot have been bent and resurected over the years and are not what they Appear to be. My dentist had an aston martin badly damaged hen he was selling it. It was repaired and sold. Lots of shuffling of parts.
You're absolutely right! The phenomenon of cars being 'resurrected' with swapped or repaired parts is not unique to the 300 SL. Iconic models like the Jaguar XK, E-Type, and even Aston Martins have seen similar stories over the years. It’s a murky aspect of the classic car world. Thanks for sharing the story, definitely highlights how common this practice can be, even among top-tier cars!
You're absolutely right-at the end of the day, a car that runs and brings joy is what really matters! But for some enthusiasts, the story and originality behind the car add a whole other layer of appreciation........ and big cash!!
Greed....anyone who deals in or around classic cars know about all the scams.....why dont folk do due diligence?....because they think it wont happen to them,. ANYONE will clone anything if it makes money.....ugh, Low life
Greed can bring out the worst in any industry, and the classic car world is no exception. It’s unfortunate how often scams happen, especially when people skip due diligence. This guy Kienle was doing that for more than 60 years, that's millions!!
Good observation! It's definitely something to think about. Sometimes restored or well-preserved tags can look unusually clean, but fakes are always a possibility. Appreciate your sharp eye.
if you buy a car from a world renowned 300sl restorer you probably think you are working with an expert. It's not like he bought the car from a guy named snookie in bulgaria who "found it in a barn".
You're absolutely right-buying from a world-renowned expert like Klaus Kienle carries an expectation of top-notch authenticity and expertise. That reputation is why these stories are so surprising and worth discussing. It's a reminder that even the most trusted names in the industry can have shadows in their legacy. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Thanks for your feedback, @bachblues2. I try to strike a balance between detail and engagement, but I understand it might not be for everyone. I'll keep your comment in mind as I work on future content!
The guy who cheated these people needs to pay back the money he stole, but those cars are still beautiful and are Mercedes so Mercedes should look at all the cars and match numbers to see which are missing and which are real. Those cars are still worth good money and shouldn’t be destroyed or totally depreciated. Just like the beautiful Plymouth and Chrysler super birds I’d love a replica one as original ones are worth millions. The big spoilers are iconic just like the Mercedes gull wing doors.
Yup-absolutely-those Superbirds with their massive spoilers are iconic. Original can fetch over a million, and replicas let us, fans enjoy in them without the sky-high price.
In the 90's one could get this car for 100.000 USD . In the earlier 2000's one would pay arround 200.000 USD , not a million dollar car in the beginning of year 2000 - wrong !
Thanks for the comment, @andrewwestwood7004! the value of the Mercedes-Benz 300 SL saw a significant increase over the decades. In the early 2000s, its value was indeed more in the $200,000 range for many examples, depending on condition and provenance. It wasn't until later that the market pushed it into the million-dollar territory. Appreciate the clarification!
@justincase9014 thank you for an interesting video 👍🏻 Yes . . . The history, value and appreciation of some of these cars has certainly been changing over the years .
Thanks for your comment! While it might not be new to some, we aim to share stories that spark discussion about automotive history. The connection to Mercedes Benz 300 SL may not be direct here, but it adds a unique perspective to the broader narrative surrounding the classic cars and its legacy.
The text in parts comes across as autotranslated from German or something like it. Whatever it is, it is NOT English, wrong word order, wrong grammar, wrong "patterns of speech" ie things are expressed in a way that no English speaker would. Also, 'Paepe' isn't pronounced 'Peppe' like it is in the video. Also, there are huge logical inconsistencies with the story as a whole, these "collector circuit famous" clowns either forged the numbers on the cars, or have to prove that they got them as they were from somewhere. It's not complicated. This should logically have gone straight to be police, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Forgery of this type is a crime, it's not some sort of academic debate that should be resolved outside a courtroom the way that I used to swap matchbox cars with the neighbor boy when I was 5yo. "My mom said that when she painted the chip on the fender with nailpolish it became 'as new!' " is not going to fly in that context either, much less here.
Regarding the language, I’ll review the script and narration to ensure that it’s clearer and more natural-sounding in English. If it comes across as "autotranslated" in parts, that’s definitely something I want to fix. Pronunciation is another area I’ll pay closer attention to. As for the logical inconsistencies, you raise some good points. The intent of the video was to present the story as it’s been reported and debated, but I can see where it may have come across as lacking in critical analysis. You’re absolutely right that forgery is a serious legal matter, and I could have better emphasized the legal implications and consequences. I’ll take your comments into account for future videos. Thanks again for sharing your perspective-it helps me improve!
Thanks for your feedback! I’ll take this into consideration for future videos. I'm always looking for ways to improve the experience for viewers. Appreciate you watching!
The car manufacturers sell at a price suitable to them. People ADD values to them later. Nobodies to blame here except such fanciful buyers of old cars. People fancy many things old, except old human.
NO! This is FRAUD! Telling someone they are buying a 'perfect' car with all original parts, when it isn't. Knowingly selling a car that is not the one they present it be, and the actual car for sale is probably stolen. It is simple to understand, whether you're young or old, honest or dishonest. There is no question about it being wrong to rip-off people and defraud them of their savings for personal benefit. 🙄
That's a strong point, and I completely agree that knowingly misrepresenting a car's history for personal gain is unethical and fraudulent. However, back in the day, especially in racing, the reuse of chassis numbers wasn't always about deception-it was often a practical response to the realities of motorsport. That said, you're right that such practices can create a minefield for modern buyers, and transparency is key. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate you taking the time to let me know. I'll definitely consider reducing or removing the music in future videos to improve the experience.
If you like this video please hit the subscribe button or Buy Me a Coffee - buymeacoffee.com/justinacaseoldschoolstyle. Thanks for your attention & support!! Have a nice day!!
Leave out the needless distracting music. I'm here for information not music
It's a way to hide that they need a...tune up
You call that « music » ?
@@Roucasson I was being polite 😅
A Ferrari specialist told me that if an expensive one is wrecked by an accident .....its possible that 3 new ones are 'born' : 1 with Original engine , 1 with original gearbox and 1 with original frame .......😁
He knows his job. Salvaging parts from wrecked classics can lead to multiple 'new' cars
That is why this story is confusing: the "fake" car is not really fake, it just has the wrong serial number on it.
It would be fake if it was a replica with the serial number of an original. But that is not the case here. These appear to all be real cars from the manufacturer, albeit stolen and with incorrect serial numbers welded on.
Great point, it's not a 'replica' in the traditional sense. The term 'fake' can get tricky here because these are authentic cars from the manufacturer, but their altered serial numbers are what cause the controversy. It blurs the lines between authenticity and legal legitimacy. This complexity is what makes the story so fascinating! Thanks for sharing your insight!
I also heard somewhere that Ferrari also recycles the ID numbers of wreaked cars if they are limited production specials. They manufacture a new car but stamped with the numbers of the wreaked one.
It's not the brand itself, individuals like Klaus Kinkle represent a different level of manipulation entirely. It’s one thing for a manufacturer to reassign numbers for wrecked cars with transparency; it’s another for private actors to exploit systems dishonestly.
I think this is a case of an old time con man who didn't adapt with technology. In the pre-internet days it was a lot easier to get away with such VIN alterations or substitutions. He probably assumed that either the car he borrowed the numbers from no longer existed, or it wouldn't matter one day if two cars with the same VIN surfaced in different continents. Kienle kept running the same con game for way too long.
Good point! The pre-internet era definitely allowed for a lot more ambiguity when it came to VIN numbers and car histories. Kienle-or anyone else in similar situations-probably never anticipated how interconnected and traceable everything would become. As technology caught up, it exposed a lot of practices that may have seemed easier to get away with in the past. It's fascinating (and a bit sobering) to see how the digital age has reshaped the world of classic car authenticity. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
@@justincase9014 Now what no one wants to talk about is the authenticity of many of those high dollar muscle cars that cross the big money auctions.
Authenticity is a hot topic at high-profile auctions with so many restomods and replicas out there it's a mess.
@@justincase9014 Yep
@justincase9014 I know of another German guy that had a shop in Santa Ana California and took cars in from clients to restore and sold shipped to buyers overseas. He strung these people along for years. He was one of the Germans that came over from sweeping the floors in the 300SL department at MBZ and flew over and were magically 300 SL specialists.
Sad how greedy people can destroy someone's dreams so callously 😞
Reminds me of this Jedi who had his Corvette stolen in high school only to track it down in Vegas. Dude almost died getting it back.
Where can read about this? I can empathise with this person you speak of. I would do anything if god forbid my classic got stolen.
@@davidgalea6113 'Corvette Summer' staring Mark Hamill
@@lear60man thanks
This reminds me of something that happened here in Australia. In the early 1970's, Ford Australia made 300 Falcon GTHO's. These rare high powered cars are now worth up to $1,000,000 if in perfect condition. There has been something of a cottage industry of people buying standard XY series Falcons, painting them and installing parts to make them look like GTHO's, but not necessarily with the correct 351 Cleveland V8 engine and correct extra strong gearbox, nor the correct diff, etc.
About 25 years ago Ford Australia put out a press release stating that it had come to their attention that there were more than 300 GTHO's registered. Buyer beware!
when i was in uni, another student had an XY Fairmont that he had spent time and money on, and made a "HO" replica out of it, he didn't mind telling if you chatted to him about it, as he was proud of his vehicle - and that XY went hard. Anyway his XY was broken into and they only stole one item - the dash clock - apparently there are as scarce as when you are trying to build a replica ... he still had a hole on his dash when i finished uni
Most fakes are imports from South Africa, same specs but called a Fairmont for that Market..
As a long time Holden/Brock fan, it pleases me greatly to read that Ford behaved with such ethics regarding their iconic GTHO. Thank you! 🙂
Somewhere in storage I have a blank HDT ID plate. When I was retrenched from their service department by Charlie Savage for 'working too slowly', the plate happened to still waiting to be fitted, in my toolbox. I've often thought about just what such a genuine blank plate could be worth in the classic car market.
It's Ok to dream about doing something but never actually 'do it', isn't it? 🤔
Actually, I prefer the idea of retaining the plate myself, just to recall my time at HDT, & with Brock, where I saw things I'd never have seen or known otherwise. I'd left Holden's Experimental Engineering (where VN body shells were everywhere while the VL was still current) to work at HDT after the break-up between Holden & Brock over the 'polarizer period', of which I fitted a number of.
Until 2013 when Holden sad goodbye to Oz, I'd often wished that I'd stayed with Holden. C'est la vie! I had other fun times in the industry, including QA at Kenworth Trucks & 15 years with RACV/RACT delivering roadside service, setting some KPI records, too.
Mercedes-Benz' apparent behaviour in the investigation, detailed here, is no surprise to me. German auto brands have already shown their true colours in the VW/Porsche emissions scandals that didn't interrupt their overall sales for very long, and also throughout the '30s & '40s. Zig!
Only money matters; & it's BIG money in cars. I worked on RR-Bentley servicing & restoration for 3 years, not long after leaving HDT. The truly rich have so much spare money, they often spend large amounts on any investment or passion.
@@davidlilja9180 How did you feel about installing polarizers?
@@keithammleter3824 Don't forget the matching specially coloured other components in those packages ...I was hopeful that Brock actually knew about some things that 'we' didn't, but not really believing it all. If customers wanted those packages fitted, who was I to say no?
There have been far more hurtful things sold in Australia ...like a nuclear-powered future in Oz, but I digress.
I'd vote for polarizers before trump or dutton, though.
We might still have an Oz car industry, but now we can have a nuclear industry?
Nuclear has no emissions we should ever be concerned about, or did I forget something? 🤔
Long live my Aussie made 1996 1.8l Corolla! It was great around Melbourne's traffic, & it's fabulous along Tassie's often winding but mostly quiet roads. It doesn't swallow too much fuel, or tyres, and can use the whole of my lane for my legal driving pleasure.
To begin my drive home from Medford, OR in 1998, I entered I5 highway & headed south. Just as I merged onto the righthand lane I noticed a Mercedes Benz 300SL Gullwing in the lane next to me.. Realizing How much this car was worth I decided to exit the highway & wait a few minutes to let it get ahead of me. Way ahead of me. I didn't want to take a chance of running into by mistake. I'd loose the ability to have liability insurance for the rest of my life.
😶 Smart move-no one wants to explain to their insurance company why they played bumper cars with a multi-million-dollar classic! But hey, it seems someone uses it as a daily driver.
A Gullwing is a miserable car to drive any distance. They are hot and loud inside. Don't take out the side windows when going over 90 mph. Why you ask. The rear window will pop out when you get to 100 mph. That was my friends $2500 lesson. Give me a 300SL roadster any day. I have owned both.
@@scotsoaring5373 Thanks for sharing your experience-it's always great to hear from someone who's owned both! I've heard similar feedback about the Gullwing's quirks, especially on long drives. That $2500 rear window lesson sounds painful! It seems like the roadster's open-top design and added comfort make it the better choice for enjoying the 300 SL's magic.
Wow, what a bombshell!!! I hope that this gets resolved quickly! If I ever had enough money I always wanted a 300 SL to drive.
The most important word in the world of collector cars is provenance.
Having the ability to trace the history of a vehicle back to its manufacture is critical in proving provenance.
Provenance is everything ! It's like a vehicle's fingerprint-telling the story of where it's been and validating its authenticity. Without it, even the most beautiful cars can lose their shine. Thanks for highlighting this crucial aspect!"
Exactly. It's exactly the same for fine art, rare antiques, and antiquities.
same happens with Ferraries, Porsche vintage sports cars. It is not about cars. It is about greed of us humans.
"Absolutely, @FritzKraut, great point. This often says more about human nature than the cars themselves.
A similar story to what has happened with the 1970s Ducati Super Sports and Sports. Prices went crazy and the fakes popped up like mushrooms.
But are the cars really fake? If it is stolen and has the number from a wreck applied to it, it is still a genuine car, just a renumbered one. If is was just a number and completely remanufactured using real parts, it’s still a real car too. Most ‘complete restorations’ fall into this category.
Great point, it highlights the complexity of what we define as 'authentic' in the car world. If a car is renumbered but still made from genuine parts, it occupies a gray area between restoration and reconstruction. However, the key issue often lies in transparency. When buyers or collectors are unaware of a car's true history, if it was stolen or significantly altered, it becomes a matter of ethics rather than just mechanics. The line between a 'genuine car' and a 'replica' depends on how much of the original remains and how the story is told.
If the numbers are changed at any point after leaving the Factory.....it has to be 'forged'.
It is difficult to correct the truth. It seems possible though but the car belongs to the original family or insurance organisation. Or whatever the LAW decides .....
@@ivankuljis1780 You bring up an excellent point! Changing numbers post-factory does raise significant concerns about authenticity and legality. In cases like these, the law and proper documentation are crucial in determining rightful ownership or historical accuracy. Such details can make or break a car's legacy. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
Not long ago we would have Sunday Cars and Coffee events in Montecito. One day we had up to 3-4 300SL gull wings together! One belongs to a friend and his tale is quite special. He originally was a mechanic, and was tasked with finding a gull-wing for a customer. After a long of work, he found a car! Alas! That customer changed his mind, and the mechanic worked out a deal with that customer by getting him to carry papers for him, essentially stretching out payments for him. He owns it still today, and drives it occasionally! Stunning!
What an incredible story! It’s amazing to hear about someone working their way to 300SL-it really shows how much passion can make dreams a reality. Having 3-4 Gullwings together at a Cars and Coffee must’ve been an unforgettable sight! Thanks for sharing that-I bet your friend's 300SL has some incredible tales to tell on the road!
I have a real passion for classic and actual cars.I even do restoration but just for myself. 20 years ago, my first classic car was a Mercedes Pagoda SL and it was the cost of cheap brand new car to dealershop (Pagoda in good conditions but not perfect). Now it costs 80 to 140k€ so the price of a luxury brand new car like a Porsche 992. A professional offers a nut and bolt restoration for 220k€.
I even remember than a Dino 246GT wasn't so expensive 25 years ago... Now prices have totally increased and buyers are a bit mad or too rich ! The Rudi Klein "Junkyard"'s auction sales is an excellent demo of such crazyness. A Porsche 356B Drauz Roadster has been sold $70,000 ! A highly crash car, without motor but registration plates ! The funniest ( I guess) is that Rudi Klein has certainly been paid to take off that car from a car crash by the insurance... He certainly bought the Porsche for few hundred bocks in the 80's. Then sold the motor and gearbox if they were in good conditions to make a little profit. 40 years after, the junk car looks like gold ! At $70,000, you can have a second hand Corvette C8 with 10.000 miles, perfect conditions ! Something is wrong !
Thanks for sharing your experiences! It’s fascinating to hear about your journey with classic cars, especially the Mercedes Pagoda SL-what a gem! And yes, the market has gone a bit wild. The Porsche 356B story is a perfect example of how nostalgia can create a frenzy. It’s crazy to think a crash-damaged shell can outvalue a modern, high-performance car like the Corvette C8.
Do you think this trend will ever cool down, or are we in for even more inflated prices.
@@justincase9014 Yes the Pagoda is an excellent car but to my opinion prices are too expensive now. I plan to buy a 560SL ( R107). A better motor, AC, electric windows and cruise control... For 25/30k€, it's possible to buy a car in good conditions. It's complicated to make plans concerning the prices of classic cars because new generations isn't attracted very much with cars to my opinion. Coupes, convertibles and sport cars will increase because of rarity. Most of all, new rich clients from China, India... will make increase classic cars market because some cars weren't imported in 60/80's.
Great point about the rising prices of the Pagoda and the appeal of the 560SL. The R107 offers a lot of modern comforts and reliability while still maintaining that classic Mercedes charm-definitely a solid choice for that price. Predicting the classic car market is tricky, especially with shifting generational interests and the influence of emerging markets like China and India. It’ll be interesting to see how the demand for these rare coupes and convertibles evolves in the next decade. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
The same thing has happened with Jag C and D types, bent chassis parts which had numbers were rebuilt into cars which were essentially clones of the original that had had new chassis parts fitted, for that matter, more Edwardian furniture from the UK has been exported than was ever made during the Edwardian period, the only difference is the value of the "antiques" Classic warbirds are "restored" after being dug out of bogs where in reality the only parts that go onto the new aircraft are the numbers, plus anything salvegable, it is the numbers that are the thing!
Great point. it’s fascinating how much importance is placed on those numbers, almost as if they carry the soul of the original item. Whether it’s classic cars, warbirds, or antiques, it really highlights how our perception of authenticity is shaped. Do this approach preserves history or just creates high-value replicas, who knows!!
If you are buying a car worth so much money surely you would first get an expert to check the chassis/Vin number and everything else to confirm the identity before purchase. There are many classic cars of similar value but missing chassis numbers should be ringing alarm bells before you have parted with your money. But it is known that sometimes a chassis can be purchased by one person and another person can find an engine that originally belonged to that chassis and both people build a car around what they have. This is why there is one more ERA vintage race car than the company ever produced.
You're right, and that’s a good point. The process of verifying a classic car’s identity, especially one of high value like the Mercedes-Benz 300 SL, is standard practice for serious buyers. However, the scandal involving Kienle shows how even these safeguards can be manipulated when forgery comes into play.
The issue here lies in the sophistication of the forgery. Kienle was not only altering or forging chassis numbers but also creating falsified documentation to support these alterations. This meant that even diligent buyers relying on paper trails and supposed “expert” checks could be deceived.
@@justincase9014 Ihope he's jumpred on from a great height by the courts as it destroys confidence in the high end class ic car market, But where ever there are items of high value you will always find the odd crook out to make a buck.
@@BarryRudge Germans are neat people. They will resolve the issue, i am certain of that.
A Ferrari specialist told me that if an expensive one is wrecked by accident .....its possible that 3 new ones are 'born' : 1 with Original engine , 1 with original gearbox and 1 with original frame .......
But first you have to find the second expert to check the 1st one.
I run a restoration company. I have always been very careful when I identifying these special cars. It takes a deep look. I have worked on cars that were sold to customers where the terrible stories they tell us of previous restorations come to light. Parts being stolen from their cars is not uncommon. This is a very bad story. The question is how many of these 300 Sl‘s have been altered. Mercedes does have the data cards. They have vast amounts of original build information available to them. Cars can be verified. But it takes some work. Apparently, this guy was getting pretty good at faking things.
As someone who works directly in restoration, your perspective is invaluable! It’s truly alarming how many stories surface about shady practices, especially with iconic cars like the 300 SL. You’re absolutely right about the importance of verifying authenticity through data cards and original build information; it’s a painstaking process, but essential to preserve the integrity of these legends. The fact that someone could get so adept at faking details speaks volumes about the need for vigilance in the community. Have you ever come across a 300 SL with questionable provenance in your line of work? It must be a tricky but rewarding challenge to restore these cars the right way.
Mercedes will NEVER tell anything about this because this would destroy the market. If you run a restoration company you know the game as well as I do. You keep your mouth shut.
There’s definitely a lot of ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ in the industry when big money and reputation are on the line. It’s all part of the game.
Please don't mention Land Rover, you'll cry.
@africadreamin Haha, 😁you're probably right! Land Rovers have such a love-hate relationship with their fans. They can break your heart, but they also have that charm that keeps pulling you back. What’s your experience with them?
@ Ever heard of the Ag-Rover??
For farming?
Oh, I was planning to purchase 4 Mercedes 300 SL.
Instead, a Morris Marina and an Austin Allegro 'll be a safer, sheltered investment.
Quite a relief !
Neverthless, gray humour aside, the Gentleman who bought the Car as an asset for his Foundation deserves simpathy and Justice
Haha, a Morris Marina and an Austin Allegro - now those are investments that scream 'collector's gold'! On a serious note, I agree - the Gentleman’s intentions were admirable, and he certainly deserves respect and fairness.
@justincase9014 Thank you for your comment.
A Marina and an Allegro !
Nobody is going to Forge the Chassis Numbers.
In that sense, I'll be Safe.
As Bernard Shaw wrote, "If he is not a Gentleman, let him be Poor".
Truly a duo that proves 'style' is subjective. 'A fashion is nothing but an induced epidemic,' and I suppose these cars remind us why some epidemics are best left contained.
I know of several racing cars (gt/saloon) who were totaled and afterward the chassis number was removed to be welded in another body. That was "normal" practice in the 60-90's. Sometimes you'll get two cars with the same number, one with the welded serial number and the other restamped. The last one because people thought the original car was destroyed.....
Тhis was a pretty common practice, especially with high-value cars. The combination of frequent crashes and the high stakes of racing meant chassis numbers were sometimes reused or swapped, leading to the 'two cars, one number' issue you mentioned. It definitely complicates the history and authenticity of some cars today. Thanks for adding this!!
@@justincase9014 friend of mine had a racing GT. Bought as non running from the importer with title. Stood under a blanket for over 20 years when suddenly an exact copy appeared, with the same title on a German Motorshow.... He had to reclaim his title and prove his car was the original one! The copy appeared later again with a different chassis number.....
It’s crazy how these kinds of situations can happen. Your friend must have had quite the battle to reclaim his title-proving authenticity. Do you know what eventually happened to the copy with the altered chassis number, it should be punishable.
@@justincase9014 his was the original factory racing GT with the correct paperwork.
There were also converted versions, with factory racing parts. The only big difference was the engine. Factory cars had a Kugelfisher injection.
The copy got its original chassisnumber back and became a conversion car....
There are a lot of scams with chassis numbers.
In the UK, during the 80's, we were offered complete bulkheads including chassis numbers with papers, from a scrapped aluminium bodied cars....
That’s a wild story- It’s fascinating how chassis number scams have been such a longstanding issue in the car world. It must have been a relief for your friend to see the situation resolved with his car recognized as the original factory model. The details about the Kugelfischer injection and the conversions are really interesting too! Those scrapped aluminum-bodied bulkheads with papers sound like a whole other layer of shadiness. The lengths some will go to in the classic car market are unbelievable!
You hear about this going on for years and people still don't learn. It is always the excuse someone put down the wrong number on the title. Different countries different laws.
You’re absolutely right-it’s surprising how often these stories come up, yet they still catch people off guard. The title excuse does seem to be a common thread in many of these cases. Different countries and laws definitely make things more complicated.
Welcome to the world of greed and money laundering. The same happens with classic valued motorcycles.
what i cant understand, MB sold like xxxxx 300SL's all with a chassis number, how and why would you give it a new/different number - and how would you obtain thas chassis number?
The process of renumbering chassis, often happened when cars were rebuilt after accidents, or during restoration projects to make them appear more desirable or original. A new chassis number could be obtained through less-than-legitimate channels, or sometimes even by salvaging a number from a wrecked or scrapped car. This practice wasn't uncommon in the high-stakes world of vintage car trading, where the 'right' number could significantly increase a car's value.
@@justincase9014 thx mate for the information! i do hope not all buyers were scammed this way
@@justincase9014 Yes, there are thousands of "recovered Titles". They are constructed from insurance writeoffs at a used care auction. They will take 3 Maseratis and construct a "new" one from the pieces and parts. Some unlucky fool will buy one, and it will have lots of problems. Maserati gets blamed for making crappy automobiles.
How would you obtain that chassis, rear axle, engine, etc… numbers to re-create a matching numbers car ? I can’t fathom how they do it as it’s technically impossible.
I left because the ridiculous, annoying, awful music drove me made. Why oh why do you people add it, why?
Thanks for sharing your feedback! I understand that music can be a personal preference, and it doesn’t always resonate with everyone. I aim to enhance the content with background music but will definitely consider balancing it better or reducing its presence in future videos. Your honesty helps me improve!
@@justincase9014 thank you for your polite reply. Consider…….you go to a seminar, an opening of something etc etc…….there is never some idiot on a piano accompanying the orator, never. If it worked, I promise everyone would add it. The curse of You Tube is this annoying habit of feeling the need to add irritating music as if it adds something, it doesn’t. Your videos will be enhanced by the content, nothing more. I am not alone in finding “music” irritating. I bet if you drop it, nobody will cry out…”where’s the irritating music?” I wish you all the best.
Thank you for your honesty. I’ll definitely take your suggestion into consideration for future videos. Thanks again for taking the time to engage.
@@BruceBoschek 🤣
@@BruceBoschekJust stop the rudeness. If you have nothing nice to say, it's best to say nothing. Or maybe make your own content if you're so perfect.
seems like the only way to stay afloat financialy, was to make everything matching numbers. its such a large difference in price, they have to do it.
In 1984 a 300sl gullwing was getting photos taken next door. When they went to load it backwards into the custom enclosed trailer that also had a gullwing hatch. The guy backing the 300 up the ramps did not have anybody buying him. More was he using the mirrors. He would twist his body and look thru the rear window. Doing this caused him to turn the steering wheel slightly. After 3 or 4 tries he had destroyed all the wheel well eyebrows getting the car going thru the opening at an angle. My boss would not let me stop him. That's none of your business he said. I wonder what happened to that car and who ever was driving it. The things you see in Hollywood ca.. this was just north of pinks hotdogs in the alley.
Wow, what a story! It’s painful just imagining the damage to such a legendary car. Sounds like a perfect storm of carelessness and bad judgment. The fact that your boss wouldn’t let you step in makes it even more frustrating. It’s crazy to think moments like this can happen with such valuable cars. Hollywood truly has its share of wild automotive tales! Thanks for sharing.
I remember hearing about things like this happening back in the 80's about Kienle.
Interesting to hear that these stories go back as far as the '80s! It seems like Kienle’s reputation has been a topic of discussion for quite some time. Did you hear about it firsthand, or was it something that circulated in the community back then?
@justincase9014 I restored MBZ here in California and had 2 clients that had experienced some problems. He has an excuse for everything and makes it out to be a common practice. It was not a common practice for me. He always seems to be trying to catch up with some problem of his design. The old robbing Peter to pay Paul.
@@unclemuir Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective. It’s always valuable to hear from someone who’s worked hands-on with restorations. It’s unfortunate to hear about the challenges your clients faced-it does seem like a mix of good and bad practices can often muddy the reputation of the community as a whole. I tried to highlight some of these complexities in the video, and your insights definitely add to the conversation!
Buy a modern performance car and enjoy it. If you are lucky and have good fortune, it may increase in value. Let already old performance cars go by the wayside. It's a fool's game.
I find most modern cars tasteless and not that interesting to drive hence I buy prewar and classic cars plus a cheap banger for transportation.
@@patrickjean-philippe7679 I'm the opposite. In our fam, we have a Tesla Model 3 and a late model Mustang GT 6 Speed. It's all relative I suppose.
I buy collectible cars for pleasure but it’s also sort of an investment as these are not really consumables. I would buy a modern car for utility i.e. transportation if I needed it.
I would not buy an electric car because I don’t like the idea and these are not practical for long distance journeys. I see modern cars are high series production consumable items… Future classics, maybe but full of plastics which decays and deteriorates by itself as solvents evaporate leading to excessively brittle parts or straight powder.
Financially I prefer not to buy high price tag depreciating products such as cars as by choice / decision I can’t afford the depreciation. I however did not hesitate to spend £1 million on prewar Bugatti even if it’s value can go up or down… As a student, my first car was a 1969 TR6 PI with overdrive which I bought in 1989 for about $11,000 at the time. Unfortunately it was stolen from me in Paris whilst I was stuck working abroad during Covid _ the insurance evaluated it at €34,000 in 2019… So not too bad for a car which I was using frequently as a student but of course I kept it maintained in top condition making a lot of the work myself.
But yes, it’s a matter of personal preference. Some people prefer new everything whilst others look at things very differently. There are no rights or wrongs; just personal preferences ☝🏽
@@patrickjean-philippe7679 Your position is well thought out and makes a lot of sense. 🙂
Not "fakes", they are "ringers".
Are you allowed to use copyrighted material ( = full documentary ) from the SWR ???
We'll find out pretty soon.
@@justincase9014 Hehe, good luck. Very interesting story nevertheless 🙂
Thanks dude, i appreciate that
Why do you keep referring to it as a fake? It’s not a fake was a stolen car.
Thanks for your comment, @classiceuroautoworks! You’re absolutely right that it was a stolen car, not a traditional 'fake.' My use of the term was more about the misrepresentation and deception involved in the case. I appreciate you pointing that out.
Extreme greed leads to opportunity for fraud. No old vehicle is worth that much money. Rich people getting ripped off.
extreme greed can sometimes leads to fraud. However, for some collectors, these vehicles represent more than just cars-they’re pieces of history and art. Whether they're 'worth it' often comes down to what someone is willing to pay for craftsmanship, nostalgia, and exclusivity. Appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
A fool & his money are soon parted .
Kienle is a cheater and scammer!He did this since the beginning of his shop!
Allegedly 😶
Evidence? the car in question wasn't restored by him, he was only the broker for the deal.
@@petesmitt Thanks for your comment, Pete! From the research, there seems to be some debate around his exact role in that deal. Some sources suggest he had a more hands-on involvement, while others describe him mainly as a broker. I’d love to hear if you have additional insights or sources-always happy to dig deeper into the story!
@@petesmitt at this point,its only the top of the iceberg!employers said,they knew about all this things!
Will he go to prison ?
300SLR was a racer, but the 300SL was a street car, I believe
You're absolutely right! The 300 SLR was a purpose-built race car, while the 300 SL (Gullwing) was designed for the street, though it was heavily inspired by the racing technology of the 300 SLR. Thanks for pointing that out-it’s amazing how much innovation Mercedes carried over from their racing program to their road cars!
Why would someone get rid of a vin number, when the other car it was stolen for, is the same car ?
Thanks for the engagement!! Great question! Removing the VIN makes it harder for authorities to identify the car as stolen. That car WAS stolen.
The only legit answer would be if it was stolen and recovered, I had a 911 that was stolen re vinned and recovered, California issued a new VIN and I bought it- I tried to get the original VIN assigned to the car to no avail
@@emgriffiths9743 How can a State allocate a VIN? Especially if it is an imported car. Manufacturers allocate VIN's.
@@keithammleter3824 Many states allocate VIN numbers when a vehicle has been stolen and it's original VIN tags removed or defaced. My friend has a Cadillac Escalade that was a theft recovery and which he purchased thru the insurance salvage auction. It had the door VIN label and metal dash VIN removed. The state assigned a new vin number after being provided with the auction paperwork, etc. Even though he and the insurance company knew the original VIN, he state would not allow that number to be reused. The only time the original VIN is used is when the dealership has to order parts for the vehicle.
In the case of imported cars, many states will assign a VIN or possibly even add digits to come up with a 17 digit VIN number for cars that weren't originally intended for the USA market, and which aren't from the era where cars had less than 17 digits in their VIN/chassis numbers. Also many kit cars have state assigned VIN numbers.
@@keithammleter3824 if the car's original VIN was altered or forged, the state could issue a new VIN after a thorough investigation, but this would depend on verifying the car's provenance and legal ownership. Forging or altering a VIN undermines the vehicle's identity and legal traceability.
What ever happened to just buying an old car, restore or fix it up and just have fun with it? 🤔
Great point, @Iconoclasher! There's definitely something special about the simplicity and satisfaction of restoring an old car and enjoying the journey. These days, it feels like the focus has shifted to big horsepower numbers or high-tech mods, but the joy of wrenching and cruising never goes out of style. Thanks for the reminder to keep it fun!
@justincase9014 👍🙂
Since collection cars have become a tax shelter and an investment, the entire spirit associated with what you write has practically disappeared and scumbags have grown exponentially in numbers.
@@pascalcs You bring up a very valid point. It's true that the market has seen an influx of investors who prioritize profit over passion. However, I believe the spirit isn't completely gone,there are still many enthusiasts out there who cherish these vehicles for their legacy. It's a tricky balance. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
@@pascalcs Great point. The culture around collector cars has certainly evolved, and not always in ways enthusiasts hoped for. It’s tough to see the focus shift from passion and craftsmanship to pure profit. That said, I think there’s still a community out there who values these cars for their history and spirit. Thanks for sharing your perspective!
Just too many SL300 around. Even genuine classic cars are an unsafe investment the market goes up and down to an extreme degree
That's right, the market for classic cars is unpredictable. Investing in classics is as much about passion as it is about timing and market trends-definitely not for the faint-hearted!
Money is a funny thing.
Greed all round. None of this is about enjoying and appreciating art and history.
Kienle the Krook. This name was given to him in the 80's. He was known to have produced Air cars. These were serial numbers he just came up with, out of thin air.
Thanks for sharing this bit of history, @scotsoaring5373! The 'Air cars' story definitely adds another layer to the intrigue surrounding Kienle. It's fascinating how certain reputations stick over time.
@justincase9014 My friend has many stories about fraudulent cars made on the German prewar era cars.
It's a high stakes gamble when buying these old SL's . now everyone will need to be very carefull....
it's definitely a high-stakes game , and the importance of being careful-it’s a point every buyer needs to keep in mind!
Reminds me of the old 1977 film ( No man's land) where I think stolen Porsche 930 were rebadged and sold new
That's an interesting connection! The concept of rebadging and reselling has a long history and it definitely resonates with the Klaus Kienle story. The Porsche 930 example shows how far some people go in manipulating car histories for profit. Thanks for the engagement!
Where did he get limited edition lookalike cars ?
Klaus Kienle's operation has been under scrutiny because of the resources he had access to as a world-renowned restorer. While the full details are still unfolding, it’s likely that some of the cars in question were created using authentic parts combined with less scrupulous modifications. The alleged manipulation highlights how even experts in the field can blur the line between restoration and replication. Thanks for the question!!
What is meant by "fake"? Is it in reality a VW transformed with clay and wood into MB? Such things happen when the object is judged not by it's phisycal value and looks, but some crazy ideas. Imagine that numbers on ALL the cars are eliminated, then the cars will judged by their looks and technical charachteristics.
The idea of judging cars purely by their looks and technical merits without considering provenance is interesting, but in the collector world, history and originality often hold significant value. It’s a balance between appreciating a car for what it is and the story behind it. How much originality should matter versus the car’s inherent qualities.
@@justincase9014 Yes, the collector world sometimes is very far from reality, never mind what you collect - beer cans or DaVincis. It looks like that the mankind (+womenkind & transkind) is slowly coming to its senses. Thanks for video. MBs were great cars.
Absolutely right-the collector world can sometimes feel detached from the practical value of an item, whether it's cars, art, or anything else. It’s fascinating how societal perspectives on value evolve over time. Glad you enjoyed the video and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Kienle, not Kienel
You're absolutely right-my bad! Us Americans sometimes struggle with names, but I'll getting it right. Thanks for pointing it out!
i work in an automotive machine shop and have seen lots of presto change o this is all you need to know when it is worth lots of money that's when to fakes come out and it dose not mater what it is art work , guns , coins , cars , Jewry ! we had a customer that re stamps corvette blocks his work is about ok the only thing that gives it away id his craftsmanship it start off with he peens the old no. so the acid test won't show the old no. then he has the block decked then he grains it to give it that broached look then stamps it . we had a motor that the block was decked and the customer freckled out he would not let the guy in town touch it he sent it somewhere in the Midwest when we got it back all i can way was wow that guy was an artist been around this stuff for 45 years and this was as good as it gets . so when some one tells my they
have this or that and its all org. i say well maybe it is and maybe its not !
That part, the temptation to "presto change-o" is huge when a piece is worth a lot of money, and it happens across all collectibles, not just cars! when something gains value, the fakes aren't far behind. The lengths people go to replicate authenticity are incredible, even down to broached finishes
@@justincase9014 the best one of all time is the battery they think the sandy rags were using it to gold plate silver trinkets 2000 years ago oh that is so priceless ! The story goes that Archimedes shouted "Eureka!" after discovering a way to determine the purity of gold using the principle of specific gravity. He was so excited that he jumped out of the bath and ran naked through the streets to tell the king
Fascinating reference to Archimedes! It's wild to how ingenuity-whether 2,000 years ago or in today's world-always finds ways to test the boundaries of what's real and what's fake. The history of forgery really does span all of human creativity. Thanks for sharing that story.
Good thing he looked at the back of the paper!
I didn't knew the original 300sl convertibles were worth so much, a friend of my dad had one and he always said he wasn't worth that much.
Yeah sure bud 😂
😁😁Guess he figured if it couldn’t handle a grocery run, it wasn’t worth much, he missed the memo.
Very disturbing video indeed
Thank you for your comment! It’s unsettling to think about the lengths people might go to with cars valued at $1.2 million. Especially the guy who put the foundation for his daughter. Such a noble move, and the foundation which is helping so much people in need, could go broke, cuz the greediness of some nasty guy.
It is very well known, that there are more 300SLs around then ever produced. Is it a bad thing? No.
Probably as well with some jag model such as the xk and e series. Alot have been bent and resurected over the years and are not what they Appear to be. My dentist had an aston martin badly damaged hen he was selling it. It was repaired and sold. Lots of shuffling of parts.
You're absolutely right! The phenomenon of cars being 'resurrected' with swapped or repaired parts is not unique to the 300 SL. Iconic models like the Jaguar XK, E-Type, and even Aston Martins have seen similar stories over the years. It’s a murky aspect of the classic car world. Thanks for sharing the story, definitely highlights how common this practice can be, even among top-tier cars!
Are those cars working? YES. That is all what matters.
You're absolutely right-at the end of the day, a car that runs and brings joy is what really matters! But for some enthusiasts, the story and originality behind the car add a whole other layer of appreciation........ and big cash!!
That's why I don't give out my Porsche 911 Vin Number ‼️👎
Not just that, i have never show anyone my "Miura", just for that reason😎
Greed....anyone who deals in or around classic cars know about all the scams.....why dont folk do due diligence?....because they think it wont happen to them,. ANYONE will clone anything if it makes money.....ugh, Low life
Greed can bring out the worst in any industry, and the classic car world is no exception. It’s unfortunate how often scams happen, especially when people skip due diligence. This guy Kienle was doing that for more than 60 years, that's millions!!
Crappy narration.
How dare you, that was my best performance!!
that tag they showed was too clean so it's most likely a fake
Good observation! It's definitely something to think about. Sometimes restored or well-preserved tags can look unusually clean, but fakes are always a possibility. Appreciate your sharp eye.
this is old.
if you buy a car from a world renowned 300sl restorer you probably think you are working with an expert. It's not like he bought the car from a guy named snookie in bulgaria who "found it in a barn".
You're absolutely right-buying from a world-renowned expert like Klaus Kienle carries an expectation of top-notch authenticity and expertise. That reputation is why these stories are so surprising and worth discussing. It's a reminder that even the most trusted names in the industry can have shadows in their legacy. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Why this music ?
This is a croc of.bull that can be shortened without so much fanfare.
Thanks for your feedback, @bachblues2. I try to strike a balance between detail and engagement, but I understand it might not be for everyone. I'll keep your comment in mind as I work on future content!
Kienle is a German name - it is correctly pronounced "Keen-La"
Talk to Seigfried
The narration and music are excessive.
This happens in Ferrari world also ..
The Ferrari 250 GTO duplicate scandals, chassis number swaps, its comming.Thanks for the engagement!
The guy who cheated these people needs to pay back the money he stole, but those cars are still beautiful and are Mercedes so Mercedes should look at all the cars and match numbers to see which are missing and which are real. Those cars are still worth good money and shouldn’t be destroyed or totally depreciated. Just like the beautiful Plymouth and Chrysler super birds I’d love a replica one as original ones are worth millions. The big spoilers are iconic just like the Mercedes gull wing doors.
Yup-absolutely-those Superbirds with their massive spoilers are iconic. Original can fetch over a million, and replicas let us, fans enjoy in them without the sky-high price.
In the 90's one could get this car for 100.000 USD .
In the earlier 2000's one would pay arround 200.000 USD , not a million dollar car in the beginning of year 2000 - wrong !
Thanks for the comment, @andrewwestwood7004! the value of the Mercedes-Benz 300 SL saw a significant increase over the decades. In the early 2000s, its value was indeed more in the $200,000 range for many examples, depending on condition and provenance. It wasn't until later that the market pushed it into the million-dollar territory. Appreciate the clarification!
@justincase9014 thank you for an interesting video 👍🏻
Yes . . . The history, value and appreciation of some of these cars has certainly been changing over the years .
This is what happens when rich people hoard things.
Only interested in the car as an investment
Nothing new, has nothing to do with
Mercedes AG
Thanks for your comment! While it might not be new to some, we aim to share stories that spark discussion about automotive history. The connection to Mercedes Benz 300 SL may not be direct here, but it adds a unique perspective to the broader narrative surrounding the classic cars and its legacy.
The text in parts comes across as autotranslated from German or something like it. Whatever it is, it is NOT English, wrong word order, wrong grammar, wrong "patterns of speech" ie things are expressed in a way that no English speaker would. Also, 'Paepe' isn't pronounced 'Peppe' like it is in the video.
Also, there are huge logical inconsistencies with the story as a whole, these "collector circuit famous" clowns either forged the numbers on the cars, or have to prove that they got them as they were from somewhere. It's not complicated. This should logically have gone straight to be police, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Forgery of this type is a crime, it's not some sort of academic debate that should be resolved outside a courtroom the way that I used to swap matchbox cars with the neighbor boy when I was 5yo. "My mom said that when she painted the chip on the fender with nailpolish it became 'as new!' " is not going to fly in that context either, much less here.
Regarding the language, I’ll review the script and narration to ensure that it’s clearer and more natural-sounding in English. If it comes across as "autotranslated" in parts, that’s definitely something I want to fix. Pronunciation is another area I’ll pay closer attention to.
As for the logical inconsistencies, you raise some good points. The intent of the video was to present the story as it’s been reported and debated, but I can see where it may have come across as lacking in critical analysis. You’re absolutely right that forgery is a serious legal matter, and I could have better emphasized the legal implications and consequences.
I’ll take your comments into account for future videos. Thanks again for sharing your perspective-it helps me improve!
Damn music
This sounds more like a Max Schuster being a fraudster issue
Who uses a medical charity to buy themselves expensive cars?
Understand the tax shelter dimension behind it.
So how many fakes are out there?
Kienle was busy more than 60 years, so...
3 or 4 are known because the news got out
Every car haters wet dream.
😆 Mine too!
long-winded
Thank you for your feedback! I'll keep that in mind as I work on refining future videos. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!
What an irritating background music I can't listen this way to the narrator talking waaaaayyyy too much by the way.
Thanks for your feedback! I’ll take this into consideration for future videos. I'm always looking for ways to improve the experience for viewers. Appreciate you watching!
The car manufacturers sell at a price suitable to them.
People ADD values to them later.
Nobodies to blame here except such fanciful buyers of old cars.
People fancy many things old, except old human.
NO! This is FRAUD! Telling someone they are buying a 'perfect' car with all original parts, when it isn't. Knowingly selling a car that is not the one they present it be, and the actual car for sale is probably stolen.
It is simple to understand, whether you're young or old, honest or dishonest. There is no question about it being wrong to rip-off people and defraud them of their savings for personal benefit. 🙄
That's a strong point, and I completely agree that knowingly misrepresenting a car's history for personal gain is unethical and fraudulent. However, back in the day, especially in racing, the reuse of chassis numbers wasn't always about deception-it was often a practical response to the realities of motorsport. That said, you're right that such practices can create a minefield for modern buyers, and transparency is key. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
Oops!
Rubbish
Rich people with ego problems
Read the comments Thanks for the heads up Tired of music on these posts If I want music I don't listen to it on UA-cam...
Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate you taking the time to let me know. I'll definitely consider reducing or removing the music in future videos to improve the experience.
@justincase9014 Didn't mean to be rude Your video and story don't need a soundtrack Keep up the great work...
@@MOMO41837 I didn't take it as rude! I really appreciate the honest feedback. Thank you for your support!
@justincase9014 You're welcome!