Procedure Turns Explained | Barbs and Hold-In-Lieu of
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2021
- Have you had Procedure Turns Explained to you? The procedure turn is a big 'u-turn in the sky.' Each procedure turn has a protected area that ensures you obstruction clearance while performing the turn, in order to get situated on the final approach course for a runway.
This video takes a look at the traditional "barb" procedure turn, as well as the Hold-in-Lieu of procedure turn.
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My IFR instructor taught me to just always turn the opposite direction of the flag. So I'd have more time to make a stable approach
Again excellent. The "Remain within 10 NM" is indeed the maximum distance for the procedure turn, based upon (from) the navaid for the approach, the final approach fix, or any other designated fix. You are also correct about the mandatory procedure turn; just confirm with ATC that you cleared for a Straight In approach.
Thanks! I had a controller get confused as I was rolling a procedure turn (as required) on an approach. He realized what I was up to and moved on, but it made me ask around to some ATCs who said they don't automatically assume you're doing it anymore. Never hurts to double check.
@@flightinsight9111 Yep, that’s why they (most of them) clear you for a Straight In (ILS 17R) approach, so there is no confusion. For lost comm., I presume they will assume the full approach when you entered from the downwind side, that is why (I think) it is mandatory to do so and when not assigned as a Straight In.
So when you're doing a PT with the barbed symbol, you cross the VOR and then pretty much free to execute that anywhere within 10NM?
@@kazshamael If this VOR is the navaid for the approach, the final approach fix, or any other designated fix and the maximum distance for the procedure turn is 10 NM, yes, but you have to turn towards (and remain within) the correct side of the outbound track (where the barbed symbol is pointing to).
@@raccoonair ah gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. Wasn't sure when you were supposed to initiate that turn
This is a clear and comprehensive explanation of the procedure turn. The visuals are really helpful in making the concepts easy to understand. Thank you for the good work!
Same here.
Thanks again! Very informative and easy to understand.
I will watch all videos in this channel, absolutely perfect. Thank you.
Wow. Thank you so much for this. I had my first airport oriented VOR and didn’t leave enough room for a descent after the PT entry. I was left with 2,500 feet in 5 miles. Luckily it was practice, but this was beautifully illustrated here thank you!
Best explanation and yes clarification needed with ATC as they typically don’t expect you to fly procedure turn in some cases, but will generally tell you in their approach clearance.
Really good stuff man, keep the good work and thank you 🙏
Thanks for these videos…they are AWESOME!!!!
I love your channel. I took some lessons ,about 13 till I ran out of money. But love learning everything I can about flying. I bought a ifr procedures book. Your videos help me to understand what I'm reading. Thanks a bunch.
Really great tutorial. Many thanks.
From a 25,000 hour ATP/CFII : GREAT EXPLANATION AND SUMMATION!!
Wish you guys had an app. Would have bought your intrument program. Your videos are so clear
Sometimes I wish there was a like button that was more than just a like because I thought this is one of the most helpful videos I’ve had on VOR approaches as well as what the VOR will be doing during the approach and when To switch the radials
The only question I might have for you is where does the 10 nautical mile within limitation start
Thk very much, I'm actually in IFR and this vids help a lot. Keep up
I really enjoy your videos. Two questions: How do you know if you should do your procedure turn to the left or right? and how do you know how far to fly away from the VOR after you cross it in the first example before making the turn?
Great Video. Thanks
Super helpful, thank you!
thanks a lot my friend . you always do good video
I hope you don’t get tired of this comment, but yet another AMAZING video. 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Another phenomenal vid! Thx,
Great, to the point videos. I always misunderstood SUSP for some reason. It just clicked when you mentioned wanting to suspended the REST of the approach while in the PT, and now it makes more sense. I presume same applies to suspending during a go around where you want to remain in the MA hold. 👍👏
You’re correct about the go around SUSP function. The way it helps me remember what it means is SUSP basically means UN-pause. The gps basically pauses itself automatically at the missed approach point because it assumes you’re committing to land at that point and will no longer need gps navigation. So you hitting SUSP is basically un pausing the gps navigation so it continues you on for the missed approach procedure guidance.
Great video
Out of curiosity, what software do you use to make these animations and correlate the diagrams to the OBS? I'd like to see the technical side of your videos! :)
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How do you know when to START the procedure turn? For example the barb on the first plate is not identified by a cross radial or a GPS waypoint. Edit: I finished watching and my question was answered.
It's a great question regardless. Without DME or cross radials, you'd have to resort to time and ground speed to determine if you're still inside the prescribed protection. For example, if the procedure says remain within 10 miles, and you're doing 100 knots ground speed, you'd want to turn within 10/100= one tenth of an hour or six minutes.
Flying outbound for 6 minutes will take you near the edge of the 10 mile limitation in which you would bust the protected area on the outbound leg of the procedure turn. Generally about four miles out (in a cat a aircraft) is a good time to start the procedure turn and provides a reasonable space for procedure turn, keeping you within the 10 mile limitation.
Usually it gives either a time or distance if there’s no cross radial listed.
wait when executing the procedure turn, I thought you turn away from semi triangle hence making a left turn instead of a right turn.
hey! Looking at AIM 5-4-9, part 1, when we have a barbed turn depicted, the type and rate of turn is up to the pilot, as long as we stay inside the charted "remain within xx distance." Generally I'd do whatever turn gives me the most distance on the final approach course, to get more time to stabilize. Thanks for checking in!
Yeah that's also what my instructor taught me.
The answer to your question is to simply fly the headings published on the procedure turn. You would make a right turn to 200 degrees fly that for about 1 minute, then left turn to 020 degrees. Look at the tiny arrow on the 020 degree heading and it points toward the final approach course/135 radial/335 inbound track.
@@MrSuzuki1187 you mean 155 radial, but yes, you're right. That is how you should execute the approach. As published.
Nearly busted my IFR checkride for this exact reason. I was taught to turn towards that barb which wouldn’t have sense looking back since it narrowed my time to get from 3500 down to 1500 within 3 miles, but nevertheless I was wrong, per se. now I know.
In the first and third example it seems to me like the hold fix ok the missed approach procedure would be a good solution to reverse the course while staying protected. granted the turn would be closer to the runway but if it's good enough for a missed approach...
80/260 for the win, Baby! No worrying about exact headings, no timing, no muss, no fuss... Simply turn 80° followed by an immediate opposite direction turn for 260° and *BOOM* on course and tracking...
4:25 Hahaha... Should have waited another 45 seconds to type all that...
Man, you are good.
I do my best! And I appreciate your support very much Abraham
Your animated example shows 2 right turns for the course reversal. This IS NOT how the AIM depicts it in Fig 5-4-18. Remaining within the depicted distance (10 NM in your example) the 45-180 maneuver you show should be made by first turning right then LEFT back around to the final approach course.
Thank you! As long as we stay on the maneuvering side of the PT, and are within 10 miles, the AIM allows for pilot's discretion on entry point and turn type. In 5-4-9 a1., unless the procedure turn specifies a procedural track (like on a racetrack pattern) the rate, type, and beginning of turn are left up to us. Due to wind, it may be more favorable to make two turns to the same side. In the animated example, the reality was that two right turns were used so that the procedure could be depicted without the aircraft moving off screen! Thanks for watching and I appreciate all errors that get caught!
Keep your pants on Frank and stop yelling .... you can turn any way to want,, - as long as you stay within 10 miles (or whatever limit stated of the fix) and on the 'protected' side of the approach course. You can also enter a hold any way you wish no matter how it is depicted
Would also be nice to include information about straight-in clearance, that’s something people usually miss.
Thanks 👍👍
I was taught that you never turn in the direction of the barb of a course reversal. In this video you fly 2 minutes outbound on the 155 radial, the turn right hdg 200 for 1 minute. Then you turn right to 020 (into the barb) to intercept the 335 degree radial. Would you not "avoid the barb" and turn left to 020 to intercept the 355 radial?
Thanks
pilot discretion the direction of the turn?
Can you descend in the feyko hold if you’re at a higher altitude?
men auh got a question 2:23 while the aircraft is taking its first turn hdg200 is not a left turn? or can I decide it depending on how far out i wanna intercept the radial?
Yeah it's normally away from the final approach fix which in that case would be to the left. Not sure why it was depicted as a right turn. The main thing though is that you stay within the protected area.
Aren’t you suppose to always turn the opposite way. For example we did a turn first. The next turn should be to the right to intercept the inbound course. At least i was taught like that. Besides that good video!
I dont believe there is anything written as to how you fly the barb or hold in lieu, as long as it is on that side of the final approach course. That said, i was taught the same way because it provides you that little bit of extra room before the FAF if you need to descend once stablished per se. Just saying technically theres nothing written in the CFRs or such.
On the 45/180 you did 2 turnw in the direction of the barb, but on the 80/260 you did a right turn then left even though the barb is to the right. Are you allowed to turn either way or must you make your turns in the direction of the barb?
I noticed that too. Did you ever get a clear answer? I always treated the barb like it was pointing to the "unprotected side". So you turn away from the barb.
@@riod43 never did, but after this I just always turn into the pattern of that makes sense.
@@samuelphilip915 AIM 4-5-9 basically says, "pilots discretion "
@@riod43 makes sense. Holding pattern entries have always seem overblown.
When do you start timing the leg duration or note the leg distance? The HILPT at FEYKO states 4 NM but when do we track the 4nm? Or the 1 minute in other procedures.
Thanks for the content! Instrument student here who’s CFII is leaving for the airlines and I’m taking a few months off.
I’m sure you already have the answer by now but if the chart shows 4nm hold, hold for 4nm, if it shows hold 1 min on the chart, or doesn’t specify, hold for 1 minute.
That messed me up in my instrument training at first too
@@austingreathouse Hey Austin, I definitely have the answer by now. Checkride is next month. The concepts are easier to understand once you apply them in the airplane for sure.
Thanks for your response!
@@austingreathouse this is actually a debated point. 5-4-9 in the AIM just states "must not be exceeded" so the 4NM or 7NM you see on a RNAV HILPT could be interpreted like the "remain within 10NM". Then it also says the pattern must be observed...so makes that more confusing since you're doing a holding entry to a HILPT which isn't an actual hold for timing/traffic Deconfliction unless ATC states "hold as published" like he referenced in the video
@@IrishLuckyCharms great point. I reckon the best answer is to ask if you’re ever unsure with the controlling agency. Cheers mate!
What if you are inbound to the Iaf on a course that would use a direct entry to the hold in lieu of pt? Would you just fly straight in even if atc has not cleared you straight in or would you fly the hold? Assuming “no pt” is not listed.
I would confirm with ATC if I could fly straight in, but yes technically if nothing is said you’d need to do the turn, though most controllers wouldn’t expect to see that!
Question: If you were being vectored, the controller would try to vector you within 30 degrees of the final approach course. In your example, you were approaching from the north, 170 degrees from the final approach course -- in which case a procedure turn is necessary. At the end of your video, you mention that thanks to GPS predictive turns, you may not be expected to do the procedure turn by ATC (and therefore, ask). My question is, how do you know if you should do the procedure turn or not? Is there an angle of intercept? I had hoped you showed other approach angles to the final approach course where it is not so clear. Does this makes sense?
The technically correct answer is if there is a procedure turn, you are required to do it unless cleared “straight in” or being vectored. However, anything less than a 90 degree turn onto final and the controller might not be expecting it, so better to confirm. In short, it’s often up to you
Just request full approch with procedure turn if you are unsure. ATC will either clear you or tell you to fly straight in.
Are there any good tutorials to use that show the ins and outs of the Garmin 650 that you are aware of?
Come back around this channel on Friday! There will be a full IFR 650 tutorial
Looking forward to it, thank you!
Last video you said no PT means no procedure turn and now you explained procedure turn at the first example where it says no PT for arrival on LDN Vortech Airways radio 135
some kinda confusing to me if you can explain it I will appreciate it
At 1:43, with the OBS/CDI set to 155 would that not put the CDI on the VLOC to the left of the a/c after the right turn to 200?
No. The CDI cares not what is your heading. Notice when the turn is complete, the desired course is still on the right side of the aircraft.
I let the G1000 fly the course reversal, and it strayed outside the 10NM DME of the VOR located on the airport.
👍 Liked it.
Thanks, Bob!
So you are *required* to fly the full procedure unless on a STAR or cleared for a straight in. In a comm failure, would you fly the full procedure "as required" at a busy airport, unless it was actually required?
Here's the scenario I'm curious to see a video about @FlightInsight 🙂.
Say you are having a communication failure in IMC to a busy airport without a STAR, but where the PT or HILO is depicted and no statement "procedure turn not authorized?" (Of course, you'd try your cell phone and handheld backup radio to re-establish comms first...) Assuming you have RVAN/GPS, you can get yourself down from enroute using the TAA or feeder route altitudes. From there, I'd plan for a straight-in via the IF if coming in towards the landing runway. What about the scenario where you have to overfly/pass the airport? If you can fly one of the 90 degree base legs to the IF, great, then turn onto final and you are golden. This leaves doing an actual PT/HILO for the scenario where you need the course reversal or hold to lose altitude (e.g. in the mountains) but don't have those 90 degree base legs, or you don't have RNAV. Thoughts?
What is actually the reason for designing a range, which is 10NM, for the pilot to stay within during the procedure turn?
guaranteed obstacle clearance
What is a procedure track?
I love my Aunt Barb.
Why does it say no procedure turn for arrival on the 135?
1:15
Im wondering that make right turn is right?
It should be a left turn.
My instructor told me to never turn towards the barb of a PT. What am I missing here?
you're not missing anything. It's best not to turn towards the barb in order to give yourself more room on final. However, there is is no requirement to conduct the turn a certain way, as long as you stay within the protected area, as AIM 5-4-9 a1 states. In a strong headwind you may want to turn the barb side to not get pushed too far away, or you may run out of screen when animating a lesson and need to do so!
@@flightinsight9111 Thanks for the prompt reply.
Isn't Procedure Turn the same as Circle to Land? Both have the same outcome. Establish yourself for an instrument approach, while you are coming in from an opposite direction.
PLEASE SPEAK UP!!
We also used this procedure to do a VOR letdown.
Just imagine if we lived in a world where you could increase the volume of someone speaking, by, say, turning a dial or something...
You talk too softly. It is almost a whisper.