Free College: How can Germany afford it? (And not the USA)
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- The rising cost of college tuition is a major barrier for people who want to pursue a university degree in the United States.... but for Germany, the free tuition model has been around for decades. So, how can they afford it? Where does the money come from? Join us on this "thought experiment" as we compare the budget for the University of Freiburg and the University of Missouri.
Interested in learning more about Free College Tuition models and studying abroad in Germany? Here are some great videos that I recommend checking out:
Is Studying in Germany ACTUALLY FREE? 🇩🇪 by @BharatinGermany
• Is Studying in Germany...
7 College Differences! (Germany vs USA - University Life) by @DeanaandPhil
• 7 College Differences!...
Episode 78 | #highereducation #freecollege #university #american #germany #americaningermany #cultureshocks #studyabroad | Filmed September 28th, 2022
👉Quick Jump to Your Favorite Topic:
00:00 Intro
02:36 Tuition wasn't always Free
07:05 Where does the money come from in Germany?
10:30 How do American Universities make money?
20:28 The Important Statistics
23:48 On the Next Episode....
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Germany it's a bad country
@@UnExcited42 Thank you!
(1) Free College is just Socialism. (2) The reason because it is so overexpensive in US is called goverment easing of debt. Why Germany no goes that way? This is because they are no using the American easing of debt way to "help" (properly called theft and hamper the Market economy), and that Germany Mark is no the Worlds reserve currency and that since ever Germany was very responsible with their debt with exception of the Nazi occupation of Germany.
You forgot an additional benefit in Germany: BAFöG - Bundes AusbildungsFörderungsGesetz. Students who's parents are below a certain income level get money from the state to finance their living cost.
@@manfredselck9599 Hi there - this will be covered in next week's video where I discuss how students finance their studies.
When tuition fees were reintroduced in Germany a few years ago, newspapers reported about a study that showed, that the government would even make money from free colleges. The argument was, that free tuition meant more people would study which leads to them earning more money and therefore paying more taxes. That way free college even for foreign students could be profitable if enough of them would stay and work here for at least a few years.
It's kind of the logic behind the UK system now. Their fees have gotten to the size not unlike the US ones but the loan is a state one and it's paid back (basically) as an extra upper tax band. So the country gives you a university education and if that means higher wages then the country expects you to use some of that to pay back your education. If it fails to improve your earning potential, then you pay nothing because clearly the system failed you somewhere.
This is also why there's a reasonably well funded adult education system in Germany, so that people too with occupational illnesses can get rededicated to get a different job, even a better paid job, and keep earning and paying castle. It's not being nice hippies, it's economics.
@@Korschtal So what you‘re telling me economics done right can be super nice for everyone. 😉
Well, of course. Educating people for close to free of charge includes the hope to have qualified workers after college graduation here in Germany. But college is free even if you only come to Germany to study and leave us afterwards. Yes we have high taxes and are often judged in this fact. But when you think of all the benefits for parents, children's, students, health, retired people and even those who can not work for various reasons, the amount people from the US pay out of the pocket additional to the taxes is a lot higher I think. Well and don't forget: in Germany the parents don't pay for the children's college. They are payed by the students itself or financing is supported by the government (BaFöG Law).
@@holgerk.9232 If I could afford to study in Germany, I would not hesitate for a second to apply everything I learned by working in a German company. I would even be happy knowing that I am contributing with my taxes to the pensions of elderly Germans. My goal is to finish my degree in my country. and apply for a job in germany, i'm from colombia at my university we often joke about whether some of us will make it to germany.
You also have to consider that the fee of most universities in Germany include a ticket for public transportation. This is also helping a lot in living cheaply
yeah this is really one of the greatest things about it!!
Well, it depends on the fee.
@@a.r.r.i.9841 I guess its mostly less than 50 Euro a month including public transportation ticket
@@lukaradtke1991
It differs for each university, something between 60€ and 400 to 500€ per semester as far as I know. But you can't pay monthly, it has to be paid in advance.
And you don't get a free transportation cars in every federal state, eg there's none where we live.
It's worse than everyone (international) thinks. I'm an American, 40-year-old war veteran with a PhD. I owe ~$100,000 and have been paying down my loans for more than 8 years.
All this DESPITE qualifying for the GI Bill ($222/mo for 36 months). It was enough for undergraduate books each semester, but nothing else.
Coming from a poor family, my understanding was that if you join the military you'll get a signing bonus of $50,000, the "GI Bill" which we all code as 'tuition free education', and lifetime healthcare.
Turns out, none of those things are true. I now work 2 jobs unrelated to my PhD to keep my head above water. My PhD is in neuroscience. Turns out, no one in America wants to fund studies on anandamide (because you have to go through the Drug Enforcement Agency to basically get anything done).
So now I work in an HR department, analyzing "employee happiness" and lying to employees as a contractor. I've been with the same company (main job) for three years; they grant 10 days of PTO each year, but it resets in April. This year I got covid and burned through all my sick days by June. I have no sick days and no future.
I haven't declared bankruptcy and have never missed a payment. Therefore, in America, I'm considered a success. I'm almost positive I'll die with student loan debt, because I did the "smart" thing a few years ago and consolidated my "federal" loans with a private lender for a lower interest rate. Turns out, when you do that, all student loan protections disappear and you're on the hook for life, no matter what. And when I die, my beneficiaries will need to pay off my debt. Not kidding.
So my goal is to get to where I can't pass on any debt to my loved ones when I die. That's literally my goal in life. Wish it weren't this way.
This is one of the most heart-breaking comments I've read this year. As a young person who started his bachelor degree this week in Berlin and is politically interestes, this is a perfect example why higher taxes for better quality of life is enourmasly important. The European model of universal healthcare and education allows me to become whoever I want to be, work in any industry I want and change the world in any way I wish to. My free bachelor degree will have a bigger impact on the rest of my life due to financial independence, freedom of choice of career and mental well-being than anything else. Even though you are in a bad place right now, I wish you all the best. Countries that are run like companies are cruel.
Sweet jebus, it's no wonder the EU gets over flooded with international students... it's much, MUCH cheaper to just live here for a few years and get your degree here.
So sad that someone from a "dream-like" country like the US is considered a success only because you can make your debt payments ㅠㅠ
Fellow veteran here, I completed my associates degree prior to enlisting. I used two years of my GI Bill to complete a bachelor's degree in IT when I separated from active-duty debt free and went back to work. I considered getting a master's degree but worked towards an advanced certification instead because I did a comparison of expected salary vs the expense and time between the options. You are pursuing your dream, good for you. Your potential earnings when you complete it will far outstrip mine, so why should I foot the bill (via taxes) for your benefit because you choose to get an advanced degree? There is no such thing as "free" education either, it just changes how you pay for it. There is plenty of room for good faith debate on how much and what types of education should be publicly subsidized. I personally prefer a system where I can choose how much and what type of education I pay for. In that system I can stop paying when I get to the level of education I want to have, in the other I never get to stop paying for a service even after I may not need it anymore.
Biden just passed a law so now u don’t owe any of those $100k college loan
I live in Aachen, studied here many years ago. Today the fee per semester is 300.19€. This seems to be a lot (for Germany) but it includes 6 Month of free public transport in the state (NRW) and a part of the Netherlands that is just a few km away. Normal citizens have to pay much more for a smaller area so there are many people who would happily pay the student fee if they where allowed to, just for the benefit of the flat rate for public transport.
300.19€ includes 195.35 for the public transport, 93€ for social things like the canteens, 11.84 for the student organizations like the student parliament and nothing for the actual University.
Ah this is a great point! I'll try to talk about such cost savings next week when I cover what a student can expect to pay. Thanks!
Same for me. When I studied at the Leibniz University of Hannover 2000-2007, they introduced the student fee and there was a lot of moaning about it. But not too much, because they also introduced the flat rate for public transport in Lower-Saxony, Hamburg and Bremen. That was a huge relieve for a lot of students who came from outside of Hannover. Local public transport has always been free for students but even locals like me profited of that student ticket because at that point I could travel all over the country for free. That was great!
yeah, the only other group that gets free public transport as far as I know, is the military here in Germany, they can't be in civil though.
@@Sw4lley ... and for local public transport the group of severly disabled people (Schwerbehinderte) in Germany, approx. 7,8 Millions people, approx. 9,4 % of the population of Germany in 2021 (Quelle: Statistisches Bundesamt).
@@Sw4lley It's not free transport, though. You can think of it as a bulk purchase. When you buy thousands of train tickets at once you can negotiate the price.
As a European, what strikes me the most when I hear Americans speaking about education is that they always present it as an individual choice, as a way for people to improve their living. In Europe, education is usually seen as a public necessity to have a workforce that is up to the task. Basically, Europe thinks of education as part of their most important policies, while in the US, it is reduced to an individual choice. The US universities are among the best in the world, in terms of research and development, however very few Americans enroll in PhD or engineer programs, which force the US to hire foreigners to fill in the gap. As a researcher myself (in AI), I'm always amazed when I visit American campus to see so few Americans doing PhD. Most of the students come either for Asia or from Europe. Even worse, these students usually pay very little to study over there, thanks to grants, which are either paid by their governments or companies.
I remember Bill Maher scorning at student debt relief, recently, forgetting that as an adult born in 1960, he never had to pay as much as modern students, but also forgetting that an educated population is how the US became a major power in the first place. This focus on education being an individual choice had led the US to increase fees beyond measure, loosing on the way the big picture.
its a choice if you want a socialist system or not. It drives me nuts to keep hearing and seeing Free education. I can tell you for sure that each month i see half my pay deducted, its a long way from free. The German system devalues an education and as such there are far too many academic thinkers and relatively no doers. Again there is NO free university so stop suggesting there is
See there are other ways to go in the US that's far far far far cheaper than going to University. You can be a mechanic, welder (they make damn good money. My cousin does this and makes $78,000 a year. Right out of training school he earned $50,000), heating and A/C repair, gas meter reader, handyman, electrician, TSA agent (airport security. They make a minimum of $50,000 a year. They make more like $70,000-$80,000 a year and it's no education)etc. My husband makes $40 an hour here in the US and he didn't go to college. His education is just being damn good at figuring out how things work. He is just a handyman. Handymen make $40-$119 an hour. The average pay for a handyman per hour is $65.
@@jessicaely2521 completely unrelated to how a country can afford funded university. It will continue to be increasingly difficult to migrate to the US as The US transitions to a
Points based system. All the trades mentioned are vital and necessary, but unrelated to the discussion
@@jessicaely2521 Germany and most other European countries also have extensive and involved trades and vocational training. These jobs are similarly well-paid. Additionally, dual/track education involving both practical trade education and a focused university program to add theoretical knowledge and leadership ability are offered. The point is that education should not be a choice one takes to improve one's socioeconomic standing but a way to educate oneself and contribute to one's best ability to society.
That cultural belief of extreme individualism in regards to everything is intentionally cultivated to dismantle the welfare state by the crooks who run our country. With zero rights and enslaved by debt I feel like we live in a fucking prison. The fact that universities in Germany had the opportunity to charge fees and only charged 1,000 euros shows how there is such a sharp contrast between a stable society based mostly on logic and the greed driven race to the bottom we have here in the US. I would love to move to Germany on their skilled workers visa and eventually get citizenship, but unfortunately this fucking debt will follow me all around the world, until perhaps the glorious day when I can burn my US passport with a smile on my face as a fully fledged German citizen.
Dear Dr Ashton dear Jonathan and little Jack
Well I am an old bavarian paying taxes and beeing born in germany. I am happy to live in a country where education is basically free. What better recources do we have but young brains?Yes I do think education healthcare is a human right
We couldn't agree more. It's an investment in to a healthy and productive community/society. We are happy to pay our taxes that go towards providing this.
@@TypeAshton Thank you I couldnt agree more we are friends just to make this world a better place for everyone
enjoy your breakfast and go for a hike even its raining in bavaria THERE IS NO BAD WEATHER JUST BAD CLOTHING haha you have a wonderfull sunday with little Jack
As a mother to a HS senior who has been stressing out college, I want her to go abroad. For many reasons.
This will send her into the unknown as a woman, she will be faced with out help from her family when she decides to have children,understanding studying abroad she will most likely not return to this country.
@@speaktruth9313 thats not true and only an assumption you make out of unbased fears.
@@beckysam3913 you may find a statistic somewhere to match your experience ,72 % of students don’t return to their home town., many Chinese return to china, but in our community as children went away to college most did not return to the home town..
@@speaktruth9313Thanks for pointing this out! The statistics speak for themselves! In a marketplace of locations to base your life in, the United States are just terrible, so no wonder, that no one wants to go back - and good for these people too!
@@speaktruth9313Absolute nonsense.
Above all else, she will be much safer in Europe, have better and cheaper healthcare, a social safety net that doesn't exist in the US, receive better quality education, and will do what she wants after studying.
I got my university degree in 2005 in Würzburg. Had I studied in the US and being a teacher, I'm sure I'd still be paying off debts to this day. There is no reason the US couldn't at least make it easier on their young, it's all about greed :( And what is really annoying, seeing the universities spending fortunes on state of the art football stadiums, food courts and lounges. Who needs that?
In next week's video I'll talk a bit about how students pay for it all - including the outrageous interest rates on student loans. From a personal point of view... my federal student loans have 8 percent interest.
@@TypeAshton 8 per cent???? That is outrageous! My car had 2,4% interest and even that seemed a lot
@@TypeAshton Woof. Thats insane.
@@TypeAshton Comparing those numbers with Bafög I can only shake my head. The role of business in the USA is really, äh, strong to put it nicely
@@LucaSitan welcome to the US of Ehm yeah... Where breathing cost you somewhere something. Nothing here is for the people, but for those corporations, such as Insurance companies, banking, and other mayor players. Its a "in your face" ripoff. I miss the old country
Living in a university town, finding lodging there and not having an income for all those years that you go to university is seen as a hardship big enough for our young people and their parents. Due to the traditional structure of Germany as a federation each of its local rulers had always felt that it was his duty to make his part of the country to be something to be proud of. That not only resulted in fine castles and stately homes but in theatres, libraries and universities that attracted artists, scholars and students.
A really great point. I want to talk about the cost of housing a bit next week too.
I would put it a little differently. In the HRE, you couldn't just conquer your neighbor, so you had to think of other ways to be better. So in this competition each city-state tried to gain as much prestige as possible, but that again cost money, so they developed the economy, which in turn needed skilled workers and they needed education and appropriate wages. In the end, the state prospered when the people prospered too.
A combination of different political movements and a few wise rulers finally created the German social policy that still exists today.
@@Jasmin-lg3gf What I was intending to say is that Germany never was a centralised state except for the short-lived nazi period. Not even the "Wilhelminian era" from 1871 - 1918 saw the souvereignty of its member states dissolved. You are right to say that it was a matter of prestige to support the sciences and arts in the various "Deutschen Landen". Industries relied on natural resources, where there were ores, there were silver, gold, copper, iron and steel products. But culture could bloom everywhere. As a result no part of Germany was really "provincial" and far behind of the others.
@@christiankastorf4836 there definitely were provincial areas, like Pomerania (compared to other regions). The system of the city states was already crumbling by the late middle ages. It is also not really true that you couldnt conquer your neighbour (because it was done). There were active policy decision to restrict wars and feuds between the nobility. Also the idea of city states paints a picture of a highly urbanized country, which is definitely not true when compared to other regions. The HRE is similar to the Netherlands today. A really densely populated area, that was pretty evenly spread out compared to other regions like Spain or France, that centralised much earlier. A big city in the HRE at the end of the medieval period had maybe 40 000 inhabitants (like Cologne) while Paris had reached several hundred thousand at that point.
Another interesting part about the wilhelminian era is that the states were so independent that they even fielded their own seperate armies in the first world war. There was a bavarian army, a saxon army, a prussian army and so on.
@@carlosdumbratzen6332 In the 17th and 18th centuries more territories changed their ruler by marrige or inheriting than by violence. Many were divided between various branches of one family, others vanished from the political map because there were no male heirs and women could not be heirs to a throne in German territories. That is why Queen Victoria's uncle Ernest Augustus got Hanover, Brusnwick, Lunenburg, etc, and the regal union from 1714 ended. You are right, that parts of the bigger territories were horribly backwardsm but especially the smaller territories often had ambitious rulers. Think of tiny Sachsen-Weimar; a mircrostate with just ONE man in the position of "Minister", responsible for mining, the interior, justice... That man was Goethe.
You asked how your viewers paid for university. In my case, right about the time I was in my freshman year of high school, my mother started developing autoimmune disorders. The U.S. government claims these autoimmune disorders do not qualify as being “disabled enough” to qualify for government assistance. So, I had to drop out of school and work “under the table” to support my mother and brother. I got a G.E.D. a couple of years later.
Because I don’t have a college degree of any kind, my entire work life has been fast food or factory work. At over 50 years old I am still grossing only 20k a year. I make just enough to not qualify for assistance as a single person and my mother doesn’t count as a dependent as far as the government is concerned. My employer ignores me for raises/promotions but gives them to workers with less than half the experience I have because “at least they have a bachelor’s degree”.
So that is the cost for me.
Hey David I feel for you! A good friend (3 boys), he's the youngest, didn't study, was the most clever, but ended up as handyman.
@@Mayagick A friend of mine was told by a professor in university:" you might become a lousy electric engineer, but you may become a very good handyman. 30years later, he passed over a 50 head business to his sons. In Germany you may have different typs of handyman, from lowest level to a level, which is comparable with a Bachelor degree. Geselle (3 1/2 years vocatinal school combined with a job, Meister (add. 1/2 years with a broader approach) or Technican (more theoratical, comparable to a Bachelor degree). A Technican or Meister is earning nearly the same wage as a Bachelor working in the same profession. Now the tide is turning in Germany to more practical professions. In 2017 my car service company charged me 47,00 Euro/hour + 19% VAT, now it is 90 Euros + 19% VAT!!! In 1950 some of my relations moved from Germany to US and everyone, who had a craftsman education made a fortune in US.
@@FatBobGer a friend 20yrs ago learned MTA Medizinische Technische Ausbildung, medical course but no study, she followed her Professor to Houston as they haven't that, went well. The story of David was the dysfunctional health system he just could Not afford what he liked to be. Land of opportunity, but if your parents have a preexisting condition this steals away your choices. And as Ashton said, she paid for and still does but still got request to spend more money to fund Missouri university. Now she reached out for PhD and pays higher taxes in Germany, was able to build a house not more undergrad student debt.
You didn’t have to stay in the fast food industry your whole life! That was a choice you made. I didn’t have a college degree either but the choice I made was to learn a trade in which I made very good money and now I’m comfortably retired.
@@henryc1000 and even if he choose to stay in that field, is it fair to pay them so less money, that they can barely live? they are essential for a society to function.
As an economist’s daughter and now economist myself (I have given up to argue that my parents had nothing to do with my choice of major😅) the concept of an intergenerational contract for things like education or pensions is such a normal thing to me. I mean I am thankful to my parents supporting me directly and through taxes to be able to get a high quality education at a low budget and my parents are equally thankful to their parents for this. I am happy to pay taxes and one day support my children through school and university since they will also one day pay my pensions and so on. It’s giving and taking really!
Its something we very much enjoy about the German system as well. We are happy to pay it forward now.
Absolutely. I don't have any children myself, nor do I plan to have any, so by the American reasoning anything to do with future generations has nothing to do with me, and taxing me for it would be robbery. But I understand that I'm part of a society and a greater world, and both of those profit greatly from having well-educated young people without crushing debt hanging over their heads.
I don't have children, so my future doctors, nurses, lawyers, whatever... Will be other peoples children. And I want professionals, who choose this profession, because they were good at it and wanted it and not because they could afford it
Fuck the poor. I made so can you. Heart. Heart smiley face.
@@DarkDodger you are a future generation yourself from your parents. You do also benefit from a society. So it wouldn't be robbery. 🙄
Thanks for this excellent analysis!
I think some other factors in the high US university cost has to do with the business model in sports, food, and accommodations. These facilities are massive and often far fancier than needed because they feed into the image and appeal of universities in a marketing effort to attracts students to their particular „college experience.“
By contrast, in Germany, universities don’t have massive gyms, massive for-profit food courts, massive sports facilities and sport teams, nor sprawling complexes for on-campus housing. While those all have benefits, it adds substantially to ballooning costs instead of the stripped-down system in Germany focused on the fundamentals of education itself.
Part of this is enabled by governments throwing money to students. Now schools can charge as much as they want and students always can afford it (at least students seem to view it that way). If the federal government just stayed out of it all, things would not be nearly so bad/expensive. But granted, you could say this about a lot of things (road infrastructure, medical regulation, etc.)
The german education system is chronically underfinanced. Just look at the condition of our schools. I remember how it once just started dripping water from the ceiling of the classroom as it rained really hard😂
Also the universities have a too tight budget. Our lab equipment is 20 years old and most of it was a donation from companies, because the budget is not enough to buy new equipment.
If you look at how much of the government spending goes towards education you see, that in Germany it is only 9,1% as the OECD average is 10,7%. Our neighbour Switzerland puts 13,6% towards education. I've been at the FHNW Muttenz near Basel for visit and they have a wonderful building and wonderful laboratories.
I just said to my husband how much I love your videos. They’re so well made, I really like the topics and that everything is on a scientific level, underlined by studies and statistics. I’m German myself and take things like free Uni for granted but of course: how’s it affordable and why isn’t it free everywhere in the modern world? Will start watching now. Thank you 😊
Ah wow thank you SO much. I am so glad that you enjoy the videos and hope you found this one informative and entertaining.
The question I am mostly asking myself is: "Why are the budgets so much higher", because lowering them would of course ease the way to free collage. and I feel like the answers is, like you said, that they become more like companies,e.g. paying high ranking staff too much money
Excellent video as always,
I think an important factor when it comes to the lower percentage of tertiary education in Germany is that we actually have a viable alternative in our vocational training system (aka 'Ausbildung'). With a standardized training program like that which is recognized everywhere in Germany not everyone needs a college degree - at least in some areas. So people who are not cut out for college studies don't have to force themselves through it just to get a mediocre grade which won't do them much good later on...
This is important for sure. The World Bank's estimates include vocational education, but only those that are in addition to the completion of a high-school degree equivalent.
Plus the heavy gatekeeping of Abitur - which limits who can attend university or not
And given how strong a determinant factor German language ability is in what school form children attend - seeing the basis for generational wealth and earning disparities based on where your parents are from.
It is wise to look at % of children with an immigrant background attending university vs Native born in Germany (same for Haupt/Real/Gymnasium) and seeing just how problematic this is going to be
@@UnExcited42 are you sure of that?
My understanding is abgeschlossene Berufsausbildung is equivalent to a Fachabitur - only allowing you to study in a related field.
This is also an issue with Bachelor and Master programs.
The Master must be an extension of the Bachelor (at least in cases I know) - and say completing a Bachelor of German Literature at a University in NRW that does not offer Lehramt (Düsseldorf does not, less popular Wuppertal and Duisburg/Essen do) is not then applicable to pursuing a masters at Lehramt in German.
There is a large part of 'completing the degree as designed and only as designed" at play
@@UnExcited42 Sorry, but you're wrong.
Abgeschlossene Berufsausbildung + certain amount of work experience = Fachhochschulreife / (Fach)abitur
Meister / Techniker = equivalent to bachelors degree (but not the same, since those are non-scientific titles)
@@UnExcited42 They changed what? An Ausbildung is definitely not equivalent to a bacherlors degree. It grants admission to study a bachelor degree. That's a huge difference
I want to add that in Germany there is Bafög which is interest-free (unlike american loans from what i know) and in my state, Schleswig-Holstein, you can get a Studienstarthilfe of 800€ in the very beginning of the university life to help with the first grocery shopping or to buy a desk, in case your Bafög isn't approved yet
Loans can be interest free in the US while going to school. They are called subsidized loans. The government pays the interest rate while you're in school. I took out an extremely small loan (I got a new car so I could get to school), and it didn't accrue interest for 10 years. Once I graduated I paid it off immediately and didn't have any interest. I had a free ride in University. I got scholarships (free money from specific programs), grants (free money from government and/or private organizations), and work-study program (I had to work in my field, so why not have them pay for my schooling). The only bills I had in University was gas, car insurance, car repairs, health insurance, apartment (this included water and electricity), food, personal hygiene materials, clothes, shoes, and internet.
I remember protesting against the reintroduction of tuition. I was in my 5th grade, a freshly baked Gymnasium student in Hamburg and the university of hamburg was just a 15 min walk away from our school. I actually didn’t even fully grasp what we were protesting against, but a few of my classmates and I were mischievous and I grew up with parents who went to a lot of protests, so we sneaked out for the fun (No I do not generally recommend protesting if you don’t know what it’s about, but we were kids). My mom later explained to me what tuition meant for our future education and I don’t regret a second for sneaking out that day. It was exciting AND for the right thing. And 8 years later I enter the university of Hamburg for my undergraduate knowing that if the tuition fees had not been abolished, I might not have been able to afford it by then.
Want to mention the "semester fees" have to be itemized - as the others here already mentioned, normally there is a ticket for public transportation included and other things like the canteens.
For the Americans: In Germany the universities are scattered over the city - you need the ticket often.
Thank you for this well-made and thoroughly researched video.
I lived in the USA from 2005 to 2009. I've learned that education, especially higher education, is first and foremost an economic investment. I did not encounter the Humboldtian ideal of education.
However, my impression is that Germany (and Europe) is increasingly moving toward education as an investment and moving away from the Humboldtian model. I fear that this will lead to an intellectual depletion of society.
Sadly, I must agree. 😔 When globalization prioritizes economic growth, and the valuation of wealth and the generation of more wealth over all else, education becomes a means to an end, rather than a beautiful expansion on the human experience, perspective, what is possible, and the arts, humanities, and social studies all get swept under the rug, or only taken as token electives, due to their seeming inability to be useful, or practical in society. I studied sociology. Now I am learning to code, so I can get a higher paying job and keep up with the rising cost of living all around me, this was never my dream, now it feels like my best option. We must slow down and reassess our priorities as a species if humanity is to progress. If we strive for more than just survival for the poor, and prosperity for the rich, and subsidize and prioritize higher [all] education for everyone, we could advance rapidly as a species, and not merely struggle to exist, but truly live!
Whenever I meet Germans in The US (where I live), they always seem so open minded and carefree, planning their next wanderlust adventure... most of my American peers are stressed about debt, and many of them drink or do drugs in excess to cope with this.
Well, education IS an investment, but in Germany, it's an investment for the State. Just like the State does (or should *cough*) invest in infrastructure such as roads etc., an educated population is a benefit for the State (and a core component of a functioning democracy to boot...)
Having someone who would make a great chemist not be able to become one because they can't afford to study is a waste of talent.
you still don't understand education.
Well, it's a sad truth that the USA are driven like a business and not like a country. A country should care for everyone, not only for those that are rich already
You've put an incredible informative video on the internet. Your work of clearly showing how each country's university aquires the needed funds is amazing!
I think a lot of current and future students will use your video as reference. I hope it reaches a broader audience on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
It is truly a gift that you are able to present such a heavy number and economic based video in such a lighthearted, joyful and entertaining way and manner.
Thank you so much for your work. You can be truly proud of yourself and your family with all that you already reached in life!
Ah wow thank you so, so much.
I actually got paid for going to college. Well, kinda. I attended a so-called "Duales Studium" (dual studying), which combines training on the job and college education into one. The company was paying for college (it was some private college in Germany) and I also received a monthly payment check. I was lucky to have quarterly changing job and college education, as you can also have like 2 days of work and 3 days of college a week (or 3 days work, 2 days college). So, I really enjoyed that and was done in just 3 years (so, the expected time) and had even saved up money, not feeling overly worked out or anything.
My daughter-in-law's brother is also doing a dual study program in Paderborn. It's the same with him. Combined vocational training and university studies and also work in the company, plus a monthly paycheck. But this combination is also quite hard. Many give up because it's just too much and then at least finish their vocational training. My congratulations that you made it. I hope he makes it too.
@@stortebeker6464 Good luck for him! I actually didn't find it that hard, but then I switched quarterly and didn't have to do it all at the same time. I can imagine, that having studies and work/work training at the same time is a lot harder than just studying for 3 months and then working for 3 months. And having a paycheck did help a lot as well, 'cause wit maybe working on a 400€ basis would have been way less money and studying fulltime... That's also a lot of work and not easy to manage.
Did a similar thing attending a Berufsakademie in Baden-Württemberg while technically being employed by a company. Three years for a Dipl.-Ing. degree similar to the one from a Fachhochschule. Half the time was theory blocks and the other half i work at the company which employed me in different departments. The blocks were either three or six months long. For all the three years i received a monthly paycheck, regardless if theory or practical block, which amount in the first two years was similar to a Auszubildender and in the third year it was a bit higher than a Azubi. Each year I also got 30 days of holiday to be taken during the practical blocks :)
My son will make Abitur this year and us looking into this dual Studium.
@@martinohnenamen6147 You basically (if I'm not completely mistaken) did the same thing. The Berufsakademie is the former name of the Duale Hochschule. Just as (at least in Ba-Wü) the Fachhochschule turned into the Hochschule. And the University of Karlsruhe turned into the Karlsruhe Instute of Technology.
Inflation, baby! ;-)
This is great information, Ashton! I have never looked into it in such detail and I understand why some things work they way they do now. I was astonished when I heard that I only had to pay 175€ every 6 months, the Semestergebühren. In GB a friend told me her niece wants to do a Master’s (which I am doing in Heidelberg) and that it would end up costing her the price of a small apartment. I am SO grateful to be able to do this degree here, and the fact that it is paid for makes me keep going even though it’s tough sometimes (all the time lol)
To be fair, many also get graduate degrees in the US for free as well (although it varies greatly by major). Both Jonathan and I got our masters for free in the USA working 25%-50% of the time as a graduate teaching/research assistant. They waive your tuition in full and give you a stipend of 1200 dollars to live off of. Not too bad. BUT that being said - we still both have a fair amount of student loans from our undergrad days. It adds up.
@@TypeAshton oh, I had student loans from GB, too. It took ages to get rid of. We were able to pay off Franz‘s Barfög quicker, as they offered him a deal- pay it all now, and it’s less. It’s just so awful for youngsters from really poor families. The cards are stacked against them from the start.
@@TypeAshton that was a good solution for you, but I wouldn´t call it "for free" if you have to work so much to be able to get the tuition waived. But of course is better than nothing, it´s just not a good solution for everyone, nor in the long term IMHO. And you still have student loan to pay.
With all the higher taxes in germany in the end you will pay more for your degree over the span of your life time compared with just paying a fixed price. and if poor people study useless shit then it's no wonder they are poor. otherwise there is no problem in paying back student loans and making a career.
@@kevinschafer6345 yeah, sure... You obviously got your math completely scammed, because the tax we pay here goes into other benefits like healthcare services and social security nets you don't even consider in the US. But keep telling yourself that. Oh, btw: I know personally people who have US student debt and told me they will be paying it for literal decades despite having a well paid job, because they are just outrageously high loans. Meanwhile, I or my parents don't have any student or medical debt, and my diabetic mom gets free insulin and free device to measure glycemia. I had a surgery this summer because of my endometriosis without paying a cent, and the follow-up came of course for free as well. I am HAPPY to pay taxes if they cover such things and I don't have to go begging for money on the internet or go bankrupt like the US citizens just because of medical issues I'm not responsible for having. Oh, I forgot: before the surgery I also got 3 months of automatically paid unemployment(+ pension and insurance of course): I just needed a note from my doctor and a paper signed from my old job which I autonomously decided to change due to doctor's advice because of my condition. Meanwhile I know that to get unemployment in the US is hellish. Just ridiculous how much you think you can go around spilling bs about "bad taxes" while half of the US population can't afford going to the doctor.
Thank you for this great video and analysis! A lot of talk on college in the US vs. elsewhere seems to be quite emotional (understandably, perhaps) and I really enjoyed this very sober and fair deep dive into the facts and figures.
The question shouldn't be "how can you afford not to pay tuition fees" but "how can a country afford to not give its population the best possible education".
As a German I'm living in France. My son will start University next year. And he has looked for the international Ranking. The TU Munic and the RWTH Aachen are ranked before the best elite university in france. They are both within the 50 best Universities in the world...
So, all for free :)
But for an international Student, you have to pay for insurance, you have to give a guarantee (perhaps you do not have this as you are already living in Germany)... So it will be also expensive with a Flat (student flats are most with 3 to 4 Semester waiting time), insurances etc.
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Never understand that US is spend a lot of money to search international talents, but do not invest in talents in US...
Does ranking mean something when a graduate looks for a job?
@@yinzheliu9220
The Politechnique is for engeniering in France known as the MIT in USA... Same for TU Muc or RTHW Aachen, even it all of them are behind in the international Ranking...
US University rankings are generally bad, when looking at Continental European Universities, given a different approach to undergraduate teaching, many freshman students are taught by 2nd and 3rd-year students ( This causes the PhD/Student ratio used to fall in disfavor, while for graduate-level degrees, they are generally close). Additionally, a lot of research is associated with national research institutions instead of the directly University, this associated research is generally dropped in such ranking, reducing the factual research output. For example, many chairs at RWTH have around 10 to even >30% PhD students and even post-docs in association with a research organization, and those would neither count as PhD students of the University nor does their research output count.
College isn't free in Germany. That's a misconception. Every German pays for it in taxes. Because german society believes, that peoples education is the most important resource we have. And that in average, people with a higher education earn higher wages and therefore pay higher taxes, which in turn benefits society and therefore the financing of the education system. And when looking at Germany's rating in a comparison of industrial nations, this seems to have worked out pretty well ;)
(and btw - even if there are nations with higher ranking - those usually don't have a free society, free education or a health care system worth mentioning. So, IMO, Germany checked all the boxes ;)
“People with higher education earns higher wages”
Not always so. Some people with high degrees have quite low income, and some with only a few years education, who starts their own business, earns a lot. I think some of the richest people here in Norway have no higher education.
It also needs to be mentioned that educations like nurse, engineer, electrician etc. are usually a full time education that includes practical assignments. So after two years you have both. The education and the needed practical experience to have a running start.
During those two years students are getting paid because they do "work" part time in their future job.
Student from University of Potsdam here. The biggest chunk of our Uni "fees" is our ticket for public transport, which includes the entire State of Brandenburg and all of Berlin*. A Bachelor degree is assumed to take 6 Semesters which is called "Regelstudienzeit" (regular study time), altho I don't know a single person who finished their degree in this time frame. We tend to call it "minimal time": theoretically possible based on scheduling everything without overlaps, but not actually real. (Obvi this might just be my faculty tho, maybe idk economics or sport science guys have a better time than biology/STEM/languages)
If you got Bafög (government loan for students), they demand it back when it starts to look like you won't finish within the minimal time. If you don't (most people aren't eligible for it anymore as the threshhold for how "poor" you have to be was based on the cost of living in the 70s or something) you get up to double the minimal time, so up to 12 Semesters. If you haven't gotten your degree by then they'll kick you out. Luckily covid Semesters didn't count tho! So we all got 2? 4? Semesters on top :) (definetely needed, I don't know anyone who managed even half their credits during zoom uni)
*Every few Semesters the costs go up a bit because the public transportation company is trying to negotiate higher prices. Earlier this year they tried really hard to hike up prices by A LOT and student advocates had to hold official votes for the student body whether the Uni as a whole was going go back out of the contract under these conditions. Scary times tbh because there is no ticket we could buy on our own that comes close to comparing. But also, getting backed into a corner with zero negotiation is really damn rude. Especially post pandemic, after public transportation profits tanked for 2 years with student tickets being among the few big, stable source of income for those companies.
Very good episode, sincere congratulations. I taught/worked on both sides of the Atlantic in public Universities (US: UC System). Many more issues are connected to your (again, very good) presentation, the most important for me as a teachers is that students in general in the US are much more timid to engage in critical/controversial debates, utter disagreements, etc., due to their dependency to make good grades, achieved within a very tight time frame in order to receive the respective financial credits with lower interest rates. In short, a lovely paradox: higher taxes => more freedom. My concerns about the different financial setting I experienced as a researcher or in university administration are different, equally worthy a debate. Again, congrats and continue!
This is a really interesting observation. I taught full time in the US and then part time in Germany while finishing up my doctorate and also found that my German/EU students were much more engaged in the class and took the content more seriously. I have often wondered if this could also be due to the higher qualifications in order to enter University. I got the impression that the students realized what an incredible privilege/opportunity University is, whereas in the States I saw a lot of kids just "going-through-the motions".
@@TypeAshton Might be an additional aspect, absolutely true. And yes, preparedness for tertiary education is markedly different between the US and Germany (also for money/tax related reasons). But for me important is to point out that money relations in general and credit relations specifically add a specific power dimension to areas that should be governed by different rules than those that apply to power relationships. For obvious reasons, knowledge, thinking, learning, and creativity should be (actually must be) kept free from fear, anxiety, worries about one's welfare and future, to the extend possible. German students are not free from those worries, though the American model gains momentum, but they are still markedly better off than their peers in the US. (This not a judgment on the comparison of the quality of teaching!)
@@urlauburlaub2222 I work in a role at my office where I work with many different teams daily. Only 2 from 20 colleagues I have weekly contact with studied privately. Over 90 % of the new hires come from public universities, which are announced two times a month. My employer is among the 15 largest media companies in Germany. Your statement is factually wrong. I'd even argue private universities have a lower reputation as only the students who weren't good enough in their a-classes / highschool degree for state colleges are willing to pay ten thousands of dollars in the contested fields of e. g. medicine, psychology, political sciences, etc
Great video as always, well researched and well delivered.
Like most Dutch/EU I believe high quality and accessible (for everyone that want to) education is the key to a successful and healthy society even though sometimes our political leaders seem to forget this!?
Anyways loved the video and the flash back to my days learning CAD.
Which I might need to brush up on when I get started with the 3D printer we plan on buying, so maybe you could throw together a "getting started" video hahahaha
Hahaha maybe I could do some moonlighting with CAD classes. 😂
Coatia here. My wife as a student was poor as she had her dorm and tuition at medical colege. Dorm was paid by her excelency stipend, and she haid 20E a month af spare money.
Today she is top european cardiologist in her field paying 10x what she cost in taxes. If she had lost any of that finances doesns of ppl would be dead by now, as her skills actually save lives. Daily.
Great Video, realy a very good explanation, congrats great job
Hi Ashton, very good video as usual!
I happen to be reading John Kampfner's terribly named but otherwise quite good book "Why the Germans do it better", and just yesterday, I read the chapter about education. 😉
He's basically coming from the background of Brexit-Britain (and also a good chunk of Trumplandia), and by analysing the "German approach", offers interesting views on both countries, historically, economically, and culturally. I find his views on Germany a bit too positive at times, but as we all know, the grass is always greener elsewhere... ;-) So, I highly recommend this book if you haven't read it already.
On another note, what I think is very important to look at when comparing budgets of universities is whether they do or do not include research facilities, which, as you probably know, are often external in Germany in the sense that they are operated by institutions like Fraunhofer or Max-Planck-Gesellschaft. I don't know how big a role they play in Freiburg, but they do in my two universities of Mainz and Bremen, among other institutions and cooperations with private or semi-private entities like spin-offs and joint ventures.
International rankings are usually very friendly to the Anglo-American system by not including the research institutions when it comes to universities from Germany and elsewhere, where technically, research is largely external while factually it is undoubtedly part of the university system, but which doesn't reflect in parameters like citations. That way, miraculously, it's always certain universities that come out on top while others with not less scientific quality are ranked much lower. The same is probably true when you look at the budgets. It should be very clear that much of this is nothing but marketing and looks very different as soon as one looks deeper into the details.
Take care!
It would be interesting to also compare the high school system and the apprenticeship programs. This would cover the issue of “value” of higher education programs. I am not suggesting a University education isn’t valuable. I am suggesting that Germany does a far superior job training it work force in general. However, I am still torn on the separation at the high school level academically.
I like to watch your videos. And I think this series is really worth watching.
I just had an additional idea maybe to follow up your universitiy series - and that would be to compare non university opportunities in Germany vs. the US of A.
What a great video. Thanksgiving for your Input i really got some points to think about
These are the costs for going to university in the Netherlands, accounted for everything:
Rent 426
Groceries 173
Books 49
Travel 72
Relaxing, social and sports 124
Clothing and shoes 53
Medical 115
Phone 19
Total monthly costs: 1031
Source: Nibud Studentenonderzoek 2021
Do note that most of those costs are costs you need anyway just to live. If you would have a small, minimum wage job for only 8 hours on a Saturday (and you are 21+) you earn about 4215,12 a year. If your parents cannot support you in any way, the government gifts you 5028,48.
So, if you would work 14 hours a week at a minimum wage job (believe me, minimum wage jobs are hard to find, everybody pays more!) you leave your studies debt free.
A few years ago the government decided to give students less and let them pay more, but found out it was a bad idea. It will be changed again, so these numbers above are the current worst case situation.
As an American student, a "Relaxing Social & Sports" section sounds like a fairytale.
Most of my peers are at risk of homelessness. Students are excluded from housing assistance and my school's student loan eligibility is ~30% too low for the basic cost of living here. You'd have to work 130+ hrs a week on minimum wage to scrape by in a dorm. I'm incredibly jealous of how reasonable your country is with students
Humboldt and Freie Uni ....didnt expect them to be so highly ranked globally. Thats awesome.
Yeah it's really impressive!
That was a very interesting video, thank you (and congratulations on the Dr.)! What I am stuck on right now - and maybe you plan on adressing this in a future video - is where the difference in the budgets comes from in terms of spending the money? I assume from what little I know about American colleges that at least a part of it is student accomodations/dorms, given that those aren´t as much of a thing in Germany, but I have absolutely no clue whether this is enough to account for the difference ...
Your research & presentation is outstanding ... something I came to expect watching your videos! ;) Keep up the excellent work & Thank You!!!
Wow thank you so, so much.
It has such a relevance to me, because of our 4 grand-kids here in California and Nevada. Their dad contacted us and said something about a "529 Plan," gently suggesting that a monthly contribution to the plan would be most welcomed to help with the future cost of College. The oldest one has great scores and has qualified for a scholarship in a US school in Europe. She absolved a semester in Rome and is now in Paris. The 2nd oldest is 16, and the quest for college is imminent. However, my retirement is also more and more imminent, and my wife is a disabled, handicapped person. So I literally do not know if and how much I could contribute. Looking back at my land, I think we did it better recently, and I am happy for you in Schwarzwald.
Garmany can affort The Free University, halth care usw. Because Germany is Spending much less in Army and War.
Also the Taxes in Germany higher than the US Taxes. An other point is that Germany exports are higher than the imports and this since decades. So the Companys in Germany are verry wolthy what aloows them to pay higher taxes.
One of the main reasons less students go to college in europ is, that they have highschools that are specialized in technical jobs. From nurses to car mechanics and so many other different jobs. I went to a technical school and followed the highest classes there. Those where classes to prepare you for college like ingenieurs, archtictec, bio research. But we had also classes like car mechanic, building,metal treatment, electricians. Those students left school when they where 18 with a degree to start their own business or work for a company
Thankyou for this very informative video.
So glad you enjoyed it!
One major important thing you did not mention is that in Germany you have to meet specific entry requirements, as you do in the US to study s specific degree program. In the US the stadards are pretty week. The first two years at a 2 year or 4 year institution, regardless if community college, college , state or private they make you take course in subjects that were already taught in high school „supposedly „ which is a waist of money and other resources. We hope that with a high school diploma you already know how to read, write do math and have a good understanding of history, government and social sciences without having to do a repeat in the first two years of college. In Germany you go straight from gymnasium to university and study your major from the get go unlike that in the US!!! And free tiition does not mean anyone can go you have to meet Standards lile GPA, test scores in order to study a particular field. I could go on and on but I thought I’d give my two cents worth in for what it is. Again Ashton, great content and well put together video!! 🤩
On the other hand a lot of subject don't have any entry requirements. Anyone, with any G.P.A. can go study Computer Science at German universities.
@@sugonmad2402 But then they have to take a lot of math test and a lot drop out because of that.
@@sugonmad2402 was für ein Abschluss muss Mann haben
@@wora1111 Yes, but that would happen either way.
@@michaelvonfriedrich3924 Fürs Studium Allgemeines Abitur, aber man kann auch immer eine Ausbildung machen. Dann kann man halt eher schwierig Richtung Forschung gehen und bleibt meistens eher Softwareentwickler oder Systemintegrator.
I don't know what university rankings you used, but of not is that many of those are tailored to give Anglo-Saxon style universities higher scores as they give a very high weight to the impact factor of papers published by people associated with the university. In e.g. Germany there's much less publishing and direct research going on in universities, instead, institutes like Max Planck and Fraunhofer do the heavy research workand if included in the university rankings they'd have lower single-digit places.
Ah that is a really great point and I am not sure of the weight that the Times used to weight this.
I have "researched" the same because I couldn't understand why almost all top universities were in the USA or UK and not in the rest of the continent (Europe) or Asia. And the biggest difference is in publishing papers and research. And "coincidental " it is the thing that the USA and UK are the best in.
I think this list of "best universities" is sort of trying to justify the exuberant amount of fees.
But as usual, everything has to be a business and make money in the Anglo-Saxon countries. (Sorry for the judgment)
@@TypeAshton you should include that in the budget analysis. In the US research needs to be funded by the university while in Germany it is common to "out source" research. Fraunhofer & co have a close working relationship with the universities.
What cannot be reflected in the data for tertiary school education and enrollment is that countries like Germany have trade apprenticeships and trade schools, that serve as an alternative path, where as the US does not invest in these facilities and offer them as an option nearly as prominently.
Thanks for this informative video. My daughter has received a Masters degree from the University of Köln and now is studying medicine in Germany. This has been a really major savings for her and us, but we still have to fund her living expenses and while her Masters had no tuition and just small fees, in Baden-Württemberg, foreign students do pay some tuition, but it's just a €1,000 or so a semester versus $40-80k a year in the US for most medical school. And in Germany at least the schools she applied to there aren't dorms. Students are have to find places to rent themselves though there are a lot of apartments to share with other students. It is also competitive to get into these programs as there are limits on the numbers of foreign students admitted and you are competing against students from all over the world. Her masters was an International program so it was taught in English. Medicine requires fluency in German.
One difference she has commented on between university in the US and in Germany, there is much less hand holding and help in German universities that she has experienced. Professor office hours are very limited. Also when she applied to University in Germany they didn't care about testing scores or transcript grades. They wanted official copies of diplomas and certificates. Germany seems obsessed with certificates. Official copies of college diplomas is costly but doable. Try getting copies of high school diplomas. I ended up printing them myself and getting her high school to stamp them as official copies.
Undergraduate here in the US, my daughter was unhappy that many of the US students were obsessed with making money and not paying taxes. In Germany students don't obsess about that, just getting an education. But it has been a great life experience for her and she won't be in debt for decades like many of her peers.
Very interesting. It would also be interesting to know why the budget is so much higher in the US.
You mentioned how universities in the US are run like a business. This makes total sense, I went to Mizzou as well and I was going to go in to teaching but I learned in graduate school that the professors had to spend most of their time writing up Grant proposals and hunting down money and some of the top professors we're actually great grant writers and not so great or even horrible teachers. I think this approach really deteriorates the quality of teachers at the institution. I abandoned the idea of teaching at a university because I had no interest in hunting down money, basically sales, I wanted to teach.
same here, friend. it's even worse cause i was also willing to settle for teaching at a community college (which i would have been TOTALLY fine with as some of the best and most fun classes i took were from CC), but they pay absolute peanut. i'm hearing it's like $2k-$3k per course! my grad school advisor even advised me to not bother with that if i'm not planning on supplementing it with another job.
so tragic :(
An important addition might be that the tuition fees of around 300€ per semester in germany mostly arent going to the universities but they are used for a public transit ticket, other programms that are meant to support cultural activites of students (for example free/cheaper theatre or football stadium tickets) and a student represetative organization (AStA) that (I think) all german universities have. This organization represents the students rights and wishes inside the university management.
Your video's are getting more and more professional. Great job 👍
Thank you so much.
Thank you for your video Ashton!
I think people need to see the tax argument in perspective though. As a single, yes Germany is horrible when it comes to taxes and social insurances (health care, unemployment, pension), which means your take home is only about 60% of your gross income.
When you have kids though and are married (as most families with children needing to go to college eventually are) the situation is much different. Our example might not be the norm, but here's our budget. My wife is still at home, I make 120,000EUR per year, tax class 3 (married), 3 children.
Gross pay: 120,000 year
Tax credit for 3 children (Kindergeld): 7956EUR
Income tax: 26430EUR
So the "real" tax is 18500EUR or 15.4%. On top of that come social insurances of 14300EUR per year. But these are not real taxes because you get something for it, it includes a very good health insurance for the whole family, public pension, nursing and unemployment insurance.
So combined income tax and social insurance is 27,3%. For that, the whole family has health insurance, a basic pension of currently about 2500EUR is paid (in my contribution class, of course who earns less gets less), and you're covered for unemployment for 1 year. So I think in total it's a pretty good package - Considering decent public schools, low crime rate, no fear of school shootings and free college and other great options such as paid Ausbildungen (vocational trainings).
My wife is from the US as well and of course we have looked into where we want to live. But if you factor in all the costs that come with children that need Betreuung (Kindergarten, School, extra health insurance depending on your job, savings for college fund etc.) the US is not cheaper at all and we decided to stay in Germany. At least for now :-)
As an American I have found the European system fascinating and me and my wife have considered the benefits that moving there could offer. It seems like a much better life balance. However there are a few issues with trying to implement a similar system in the US.
The first issue is simply trying to convince people that part of their tax money is for a service that they receive. About half of my taxes that I pay are already split out as social security. Everyone in the US would consider that a part of their tax burden regardless of what they may receive in exchange.
The second issue is that the management of these sort of systems has not been good in the past and I do not believe many people would trust it moving forward into the future. Social security is a good example. We all pay into this, but there is significant distrust in the government managing these institutions. So even though a significant portion of our taxes are to account for our ability to eventually retire, we still save significant money in private retirement because we don't believe that it will be sufficient.
I think the first thing the US needs to reform is the two party system. More moderate parties that can help stabilize the country. Jumping from one extreme to the other every four years is a problem for the stability of anything under its direct control.
Because in the US the education standards are so low that everyone can go to college. In Europe, you actually have to take tests to pass high school level and they involve a lot of studying and learning. Some subjects most Americans don't even take, like physics,. Unless they are going to be scientists, most American students never learn physics or advanced math. When only the best go to university, a country can afford to invest in higher education.
Perhaps this gatekeeping is a contributing reason to the persistant gap in university degrees between people born to German parents vs those with an immigrant background
And also the very low representation of German people with immigrant backgrounds among the top leadership of major German companies
What an excellent video. Thanks for doing this, it was very enlightening! Especially the huge difference in budget was surprising to me. Years of questionable incentives on the US side obviously, but as far as I see, there has also been a lot of unhealthy cost saving here in Germany, making a univerity career more risky and less attractive.
Another great informative video! 🙂
In most European countries university is part of the general education system meaning it's the normal continuation of high school. I'm from Hungary here as a student there are two options if you're a good enough student academically then higher education is essentially free funded by the state (you have to get a certain amount points based on your grades and high school leaving exam ) in other cases (let's say your gpa is slightly lower but not too low ) than you have to pay a tuition fee between 550-1100 eur /per semester.
In Denmark and Sweden EU students get an allowance to study at university.
In Poland we also have free higher education. Ive been studing for 10 years on 2 courses civil engineering and computer science. Many people (about 5%) after 3 year on one field of study finds that he/she didn’t like it and don’t want to do it and change to other Field of stady. Yeah I know it is waste of time but some people do that, and in europe it is frequent. I like that I’ve changed to computer science. ;) Nice we have it for free. But i think people in europe especially Poland are less mature than use. When we go from high school to university we are still childs. Like going from First high school to second.
I think the idea of "free" college education was that the lessons taught should not reflect any company's set of values, but be "pure" science. When my Dad got a three-year assignment to work in California, I was in high-school one year and two years in a community college. My Dad's employer paid for my Associate in Arts degree in Business Data Processing, was roughly $11,000 per semester in 1978 money.
What a disgrace!
Thanks, very interesting collection of stats and facts. As a German who has lived in both countries I have never really thought along these tracks. I think it's a pretty crazy budget Misu has compared to it's German counterpart.
Looking at your excellent series a few side thoughts :
If an undergraduate degree in Germany costs only $32,000 then I’ve already payed mine back in the first two years of working full time by paying income taxes.
So „free“ Education really pays off for the German government (and me of course - I couldn‘t have afforded US like tuition fees).
In addition to the tuition-free studies, I received about 30k € in financial support aka. BaFöG (parts of it as a loan) from the government, of which I had to pay back later about 7k or 8k, ... the other ~ 23k € had been paid for by either state's taxes or federal taxes. So, basically my first 55k € of income tax could be considered as "paying back what the government has invested in my university education".
Then the next ~50k or so could be interpreted as "today's value (adjusted for inflation etc.) of the 300 monthly payments of Kindergeld (child support from the federal gov.) that my parents had received for me.
Hello Ashton, welcome as a local German! Laughed my ass off when you mentioned Bayern instead of Bavaria! Sure you controlled it a thousand time and always stumbled over it like a real German speaker!
What I heared university teachers in US do have less students to supervisory than their German counterparts and they get better remuneration. I'm curious If you can confirm that.
Hmm, I remember one Prof asking us for forgiveness because the Übungsgruppe was too large. We were five people. And the instructor was our Prof himself. In the other practice groups we usually were about ten person's with a doctorand as an instructor supporting us in practicing the stuff the Prof had told in the auditorium (with about 150 students).
But lots of things were different when I did my "Diploma". I vividly remember our tests. We always did them on Wednesday afternoon. Thursday morning the Prof presented the results of how we did and explained possible easy to efficiently solve the problems. If one of the problems of the test was not solved correctly by many of the students the Prof would start a discussion, whether he had not told us enough, to easily solve the task? I still think fondly of that mindset.
The high tuition fees in Anglo-Saxon countries may also be a means of social selection. Personal skills are not the criterion, but the ability to finance university studies. In this way you can prevent the social advancement of entire population groups. Maybe that's intentional?
There is a good video from visualpolitik about the astronomical costs of University tuition in the US compared to the EU and other countries
I've got an addition to make about the student protests against the reintroduction of tuition fees in Germany, because many people including politicians got the main reason for the protests wrong. Most students weren't protesting the possibility of having to pay tuition but the lack of something called zweckbindung. In Switzerland this is the norm, meaning if I pay tuition, the money goes to the university, which can use it to better my education. In Germany they wanted to reintroduce tuition without that, meaning that those tuitions could have been used to cover pensions or build highway without a guarantee that the quality of studies would improve. And that's what those protests were mainly about. The irony is that politicians' response was not to add zweckbindung but to scrap tuition again.
Tuition fees could not have gone into highway construction, they were paid to the university, not the state government.
The biggest fear was that the states would deduct the tuition fees from the public funding. Which is why in several states, the universities were explicitly forbidden to use that money to pay for lecturers to not give the states an excuse to cut funding.
Not sure if I missed it in the video but I would be very interested to know where the budget differences between the two example universities come from.
Wonderful work with the subject. Thanks for such passionate work! I wish all the best for you and your family.
P.S I studied in Federal University in Brazil, and although the problems with structure, we have good professors and a public education funding by the government. All this to say, how I never understood why the US have such amount of money and the students graduated with high debt. It's a public issue, with I hope developer for the better in a near future there.
One thing I would add is that money in form of higher tuition not necessarily buys you a better education (it might to a small degree, but must not), but certainly will buy you an easier one as you will get more support.
In my case I can compare studying pharmacology in Bonn (ranked 100-150) and in Johns Hopkins (ranked 5) where I was for 3 years. While the year in Baltimore gave me a lot in all kind of ways in regard to sheer knowledgle learned in your main study the Friedrich Willhelm univesity is the better one. John Hopkins has other advantages though. While in germany it is expected of students to handle everything on their own you will receive a lot of support in a US college. Their main advantage though is their residency program. Here they excell due to their good structure, their technical potential and advanced reasearch in many areas. As those are post doc positions it will not help much during your studies.
And that also shows why the QS university ranking does not necessarily say much about the quality of education. The QS ranking is based mostly on academic reputation, student to staff ratio and employment outcoms. While the student teacher ratio will help you lerning it does not say anything about what and how much you will learn. The academic reputation is also no factor as a good researcher is not necessarily a good teacher. The employment outcome does not say anything either.Due to the limitation of university places for pharmacy in germany a employment outcome as pharmacist als almost guarantied. The ratings in regard to the top worldwide universiies are way lower though as the employment outcome can not be documented as long as the student is not employed by the university itself or is offering the information himself.
That said you can sum it up in two points:
1. both systems have their advantages in different areas
2. the universty rating systems might help you, but effectively does not say much about the quality of education itself
It is very easy. Free College is an Investment. Higher Education means higher tax revenue later. It’s a no brainer. . Unfortunately in the US is education an Industrie where money and profit is more important as the education itself.
It is really heartbreaking to see programs cut because of finances. Things like art and the humanities are so important.
if they stay in Germany and pay taxes there, it is no problem. I might be wrong on the big scale, but i have not yet seen many foreign students planning to work in Germany, most of them want to go back to China or India. In general, I have not found much data at all on how many students from outside the EU stay in Germany after graduation although I have read that the willingness to stay is increasing, but the numbers were not specified, which makes me think that the percentage is not high, but hopefully I am wrong (Otherwise, how will you be able to say that the willingness is increasing without the numbers, also personal experiene will distort my perspective a little bit).
As far as i understood, in USA the federally backed loans in addition to the opening to foreign students (esp. china, india = now the rich families send their children to prestigious US Unis too) likely play a role in the increase of tuition fees, as more students from a rich background enroll and are able and willing to pay up. Also the federal loan system does not punish Unis when they increase fees, as the loans will still be granted to students, thus not giving an incentive to reduce tuition fees in order to keep stdents enrolling. But surely many more factors are at play here.
We Europoors sacrifice innovation for college education, while Ameritrash cashes in on highly innovative Unis at the cost of the affordability of the higher education.
Very interesting especially since both countries have such different approaches to higher learning. To me the U.S. concept of financing college sports as part of university life seems very odd- just think about the enornous scholarships for athletes. On the other hand, American colleges seem to really want every single of their accepted students to succed academically and offer lots of help. If you enroll in Germany as an undergraduate student, it can be tough to survive the first few semesters and as a result, the drop out rates are very high (around 30%, science majors have even higher dropout rates).
FYI: It is becoming increasingly "popular" at German universities that professors have to find external sources for funding, I heard something that up to one third is supposed to be "Drittmittel", organized by German professors. This financial dependancy makes objective research very "challenging", just think of fields like pharmacy and environmental studies.
About the drop out rate: There several reasons why it is like that:
1. For many subjects we have no restrictions. Everybody has access. There is no entrance test. And for some the subject is plain and simple to difficult. When i started chemesty dipl. in the early 90's we started with around 150 in that semester. After 2 semsters we droped down to under 100. At the end under 70 made the diplome. Chmestry was one of the most difficult subjects you could study.
2. The education method is not for all. In germany the tradition how you get teached is very different to the school. You just get lecturtes and some few tests and practica but you need do the learning by your own. You no one is telling you what you need to do. No one is checking on regular basis if you had understood what was tolled in the lectures. You need find out your very own way how you best lern the stuff. In some subects there are only lectures and at the end of the semester some tests and nothing else.
Not all have the discipline to do all the learning by your own. Those will drop out.
3. Some just find out that studing is not what they expected and they choose another carrer path. SInce it dont cost a lot but mainly just time, to drop out is not a so hard choice.
Thank you for making this video! It is really valuable. One note, the University of Southern California, USC, is a private university.
I am in the same position. I came to Germany and have finished a Master's degree. I turned in my PhD thesis about two weeks ago and I am just waiting for my defense. I just started a full time job here and have decided to stay in Germany. I also still have some student debts from my undergraduate degree in the USA.
Hello Dr. Ashton, happy (wet) Sunday!
I'm guessing that american Universities in the long term are a Business and should make some money. That's not rhe case in Germany, also german universities should be possibly accessable for each kid. I'm not Sure if this is possible in the USA. That's my thoughts. Best regards Ralf
Yes it a fundamental difference for sure. Nearly everything is based on whether or not it turns a profit in American universities.
Great video as always! I'm posting from here in Louisiana, so its 2:48 AM right now, but I can't sleep at all. If I wanted to get a 2nd degree in Germany, could I work part time?
Ah shoot! On the one hand, I'm super happy that you watched the video and that we could provide some late-night entertainment - but hopefully you can rest soon! Its about 10 am here.
A great analysis Ashton. For a future program, let me suggest something that initially totally baffled my German wife when she was driving my American visitors around the Koeln area. If she headed for the Autobahn, the American women started giggling and laughing when they saw a sign that said "EINFAHRT". More laughter with "DURCHFAHRT" or "AUSFAHRT". My wife finally asked me what was so funny about those "FAHRT" signs that made her passenger laugh. I explained the double entendre, and then when the giggles started the next time, she could now give her passengers an explanation of the German meaning of the signs.
As always, a very thorough and well done video! Thank you. However, I have a consideration about the graduate percentages: in all of those countries with tuition free university, there are also alternative forms of higher technical education that don´t count as universities and don´t come into these numbers, but are very qualifying and very much important on the job market.(since they are very requested, the wages are going up actually) In Germany as you probably know, we call it Ausbildung, but I am pretty sure places like Norway or Denmark have the same concept. So while it´s my understanding that in the US after a high school degree, to increase your paycheck, you HAVE to go to college, here that is not the only option. Of course, Ausbildung is also State financed and free for the students. They even get paid by the companies they go for their internships, even if it´s not a competitive salary (but it is also to consider that the usual "Azubis", aka the students, are quite young and don´t need to fend for themselves).
Furthermore, about the ranking of universities, I have a question: which parameters are considered? Because I often read these rankings and see that are based mostly on few things, among which is, e.g., the number of publications. But, given the number of predatory journals going around, I don´t know if it can be considered a reliable parameter, in all honesty, for any university (and if "publish or die" is an issue here, more so in the US from what you also explained). Another parameter I saw is student/professor ratio which, eh, ok. Gives me kind of "that´s a thing we can tinker a lot with" vibes. That is why I am asking, I´m sure there are better parameters we could rely on to judge ANY university, really. But the mentality on this point is difficult to change I guess.
Just food for thoughts! Thanks again!
Hi there! You bring up great points and to be honest... I spent 3 hours yesterday trying to dig through the World Bank's notes on how they calculated their rates on tertiary education and was frustrated by the lack of transparency on how they arrived at their numbers. On the other hand, the ranking of the Universities is always a difficult measure because, as you mention, they don't always equally weight publications and research activity. That being said, all major German universities (including the University of Freiburg) use the Times (which is the rating scale I used in this video) as part of their marketing and advertising of rank on their official website. So while it might not necessarily be 100% fair, it seems to be the metric preferred.
A few omissions here (and thank you for a great report) regarding budgets include: (1) American universities are absolutely laden with totally unnecessary six-figure administrators with PhDs in education (they're all over the campus of every American institution, and most are totally useless); (2) the amount of needless construction to make lobbies, lecture halls, and dorms resemble hotels is insane and has nothing to do with quality instruction; and (3) sports teams generally cost far more than they bring in from alumni donations. Get rid of them and focus on learning. Americans attending university are no longer students; they are, instead, customers. It's a very sick business model. I say this as someone who has attended five U.S. universities for undergrad and two master's degrees.
The lifetime earnings gap between those with and without a BS/BA degree is collapsing. Your data need to be updated. Half of the 2021 American graduates are working in jobs that do not require a degree at all and are getting paid an hourly rate of between $15 and $17. This is slated to be worse in the next ten years, as we will likely have (at least!!) two more major and protracted recessions between now and 2032. Our economy resembles that of a failing nation (over 60% of Americans cannot afford a $500 emergency), and most Americans of middle class or working class means are going to start omitting college from their list of options after high school.
The American university system is one of the top three economic rackets in this nation, and fortunately people are starting to get smart about it. Unfortunately, as enrollments drop and fewer people even try to attain a well-rounded education, that means we will continue to fall behind OECD and other developed nations among many variables having to do with a decent living standard. But that's what happens to failing nation-states that become psuedo-fascist corporatocracies which essentially purchase the entire federal judiciary and legislature (a related, but complex topic.)
I always found this fetish of universities having bigger sportstadiums than some cities shocking.
people are there to get a degree, not watch some insecure men run behind an eggshaped ball
Taxes.
If everyone pays the same percentage, one billionaire will pay for the tuition of thousands of people each year.
Those people will bring in money to the billionaire, who can then pay the tuition for even more people.
In the US the rich evade paying taxes.
@@scratchy996 it is not true, contrary to public belief the US tax system is very progressive and most taxes are paid by wealthy people.
@@wikingagresor "most taxes are paid by wealthy people." - that's how they trick you into thinking that they pay their FAIR SHARE of taxes, but they don't.
The Rich still pay WAY less than the average person.
It's 5th grade math.
Let's say everyone has to pay 20% in taxes (random number).
You have the middle class people in a state pay their 20%, that amounts to a sum of X.
Then you have the multi-millionaires and billionaire pay their taxes, that amounts to 2*X.
Naive people will then say : "Hey look, the rich pay more in taxes !"
BUT, percentage wise the rich only paid 2% instead of 20%. It still amounts to 2*X, because they are so damn rich.
That's how they trick you. They pay a tiny amount, but because they are so rich, it looks like a huge amount on paper.
AND then they get extra tax breaks from the government.
No Universal health care, no motherhood and child raising allowance, no paid 1 year maternity leave, no child aid, no! I wouldn't raise a child in the .U.S.
I highly value your structured, fact-based inputs on several topics. Educating, too.
Thank you so much!
Just want to say that this video was awesome. I missed a side by side total study cost comparison, but the way you researched, collected and explained all this data leaves no doubt that you are a very smart woman. I personally never visited a college here in Germany (not completely true, I had 2 semesters in business Informatics), but this is because the rate of students here is only around 57% and the rest (me included) starts vocational training (not comparable with what trade universities in the us mean by that). Based on a research of the SOEP in 2021, my monthly wage allows me to be in the top 5% of the country... Without ever got a college degree. And these vocational trainings are 100% free.
I just started my first semester. Nice that this university series starts at the same time I start university :D
I think you captured a number of good points. Here are some additional points worth adding to your list:
1) German culture places a high value on education at ALL levels. When I lived there in the 80's you needed a certificate of completion (in whatever form that came) to even apply for a job in a field. Also, the vast majority of the population (>70%) went through an apprenticeship (whether it was blue collar or white collar). Only a relatively small portion of the population went for the Diplom. I realize some things have changed, but in principle, the German culture BELIEVES in proper education for people to perform their jobs. By contrast, American culture does not value education as highly. Consider this, some of the richest men in the world never ever finish college: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs come to mind. These individuals are "respected" because of their wealth, not their education. Moreover American businesses use education simply as a method for filtering out applicants, regardless of whether the job actually needed a college degree to perform the work.
2) I think you mentioned that student loans cannot be forgiven. This is like free money to the universities. They don't have any skin in the game because the students have all the responsibility to repay, even if their education was inadequate. I have two kids in college so I am feeling this pain quite acutely at the moment. Universities/colleges have no disincentive to demand so much in tuition and fees. What do they care if the student is crippled with debt. They got their money.
3) Also, there is a question of supply and demand. Many universities and colleges grew in size during the years when the baby boomers were going to college. When Gen X became the predominant group the numbers of students declined. Universities looked at ways to attract more students. They built new dorms, expanded entertainment and recreational opportunities, and worked on "selling and marketing" their institution. Some places proudly hailed that they were the "top" party schools. Other factors include the increase in the number of foreign undergraduate students which has risen dramatically. It might be true that there is an oversupply of slots for students in the US compared to the supply. Universities have mostly fixed costs, so if in a simplistic calculation the tuition is [Fixed costs/number of students] if the number of students goes down, tuition must go up. Also, if fixed costs increase, tuition must go up.
4) Going back to 1), the education system in the US emphasizes a college education but not a trade or apprenticeship. In fact, apprenticeships seem to be on the decline. That is also a mistake and probably contributes to high university costs. If you are the only game in town you can name your price. If you have competition (eg another route for education) then you need to price your product to attract the business.
Good job on your analysis and best wishes to you and your family for the future.
There are plenty of wealthy people who aren't respected. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are respected because they created huge companies that provided important products to people throughout both the US and the world.
College isn't tertiary education in Germany, it's secondary education. The highest diploma you can get at a German secondary school (i. e. Gymnasium, Gesamtschule, Oberstufenkolleg) is the Abitur which is comparable to a US college diploma. This then enables you to enroll at a university - if you so wish. Same in other EU states.
Yes, I also noticed that flaw
Who told you that an Abitur is comparable to a US college diploma? That is just wrong.
It is often said, that the first year of US college is on an Abitur niveau, since college education is not as specialised as a German Uni education, where you don't have any classes outside your major.
Given that the US has 4 years bachelor degrees and German has 3 years bachelor degrees, the result is pretty much the same. The one year extra in college makes up for the slightly higher niveau of an Abitur.
No, you get Mittlere Reife after 10 year of schooling in Germany, which is done in a Gymnasium by simply passing the grade, while in schools topping out in year 10, you sit an additional exam. Thus the last 2/3 years of the Gymnasium are a combination of Highschool diploma and College, given that students also have the choice of putting emphasis on a specific topics of study.
Here in Austria studying at an University is also (nearly) free. The estimated time until graduation are 6 semesters for a Bachelor degree and 4 semesters for a Master degree. This time is called "Mindeststudienzeit" or "minimun study time", which is free. Additional to this time you have 2 extra semesters (Toleranzsemester), where you also do not have to pay fees. So for a Bachelor degree you have 6+2 (4+2 for a Master degree) semseters time before you have to pay any fees. The only fee you have to pay in this time is for your student council, which is the political represantation of students, which is around 21€ per semester. If you exceed the 6+2 time (or 4+2 for a Master degree), you have to pay around 360€ (around the same in US-Dollars) for every additional semester you need.
My time in college is skewed toward the left hand side of the chart. Even in those days, tuition was low and but a small fraction of the total costs with many fees. We had athletic fees, student union building fees, lab fees, and even Ralph Nadar’s PIRG fees. Of course, resident students had meal plan and housing fees. One peculiarity of high education funding in my state was tuition money was sent to the state to be returned as part of the state’s contribution and fees remained on the campus that generated them. Of course, this lead to an even more complex menu of fees. What has happened over the years is the state governments which fund the local public colleges and universities had budget problems found it was a relatively easy choice to cut back in the funding with the schools having to make it up either by cutting expenses or raising money through fees. Once this process started, it was easy for the state to keep cutting and here we are with outrageous student (or their patent’s) paid costs. I suspect that the inflection points in your cost vs time graph correspond to economic downturns. Further, public (and private) higher education has become administratively top heavy with a plethora of associate deputy assistant Vice Presidents or deans of this that and the other thing proliferating. What you see on campuses now is less tenured faculty and more adjunct teaching staff. Certainly, US states need to step up and make investments but cutting administrative bloat and over the top student amenities need to be looked at, too.
Additionally, why do the majority of students no longer graduate in 4 years but now take 6 years to attain their bachelor degree, if they attain it? Are current students not prepared, unable to enroll in required courses, cutting back to work to pay their tuition, or are they enjoying college life and don’t feel the pressure to wrap up and find employment?
Finally, this is yet another in the series of Dr. Ashton’s well researched topics. Thank you for the effort to produce these thoughtful and thought provoking videos.
Hey. I do know what a undergrad student is, but not all viewers.
You maybe explain this in another video.
Ah interesting! What is the term for a bachelor's student in Germany? In the US, undergrad is another word for someone not in a graduate degree (masters or doctorate).
@@TypeAshton . It is a Bachelor student and the a Master student and then there german words.
„ Doktorand“ = somebody like you , before you got your „Doktortitel“.
Other word is „ Promotion= is not same a an us promotion( german Beförderung).
Missed the other video, but answering your question about paying for college:
1) MY college education(s)
a) Universitiy of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music, graduated with B.M.E. in 1974 with about $5000 student debt. Paid off by me working during school and after graduation. Done so BEFORE leaving for...
b) Schola Cantorum Basiliensis der Musik-Akademie der Stadt Basel, Switzerland. Studied for 4 years as a part time "external student" NOT for a degree. Cost was minimal, don't remember but way less than $500/semester as a foregin student.
c) University of Calgary, Graduate Degree in Conducting 3 3 week session during summers. Cost around $1000/summer.
d) Konservatorium der Musik-Akademie der Stadt Basel, Switzerland: Teaching degree (analog to a now Bachelors Degree after the move to Bologna system) in Trombone/Euphonium. Since I was already an employee of this institution, my tuition was massively reduced to something like $400/semester. Also due to my previous Bachelors from Cincy, I was passed through 90 of the required academics, only needing to have supervised teaching (a joke as my supervisor never visited my teaching) and writing a final paper as well as passing playing exams.
2) college education of my kids: My son attended first the University of Lausanne, Switzerland and got a Bachelors of Sociology. We paid $700/semester for his education. He did his last year in Montreal, which was paid for by the internaltion exchange student program. Then he did a Masters at the International Institute in Geneva for Sociology. Also cost $700/semester which he paid for by working 30-50% on the side.
My daughter attended the University of Basel. Different system here. She enrolled in the medical school which is 6 years and you exit with a Masters in Medicine. If you pass the federal boards, you qualify to practice medicine, without a doctor title. If you want, and it's not necessary, you can sign up for a doctoral program, do a research dissertation and receive an M.D. All this cost $700/semester. We paid until she graduated with her Masters and got her first assistenceship at a local hospital (analog to residency). She paid for her MD.
bottom line: no student debt, but highly subsidised from our taxes, which hit 16.8% for total local/state (Kantonal)/federal taxes. We're fine with that.
Ja, die Schweiz ist teuer. Aber wunderschön. Habe dort auch immer gerne meine Steuern bezahlt. Das Preis-Leistungsverhältnis stimmt.
Our son graduated two years ago with a 2 year welding fabrication diploma from the local community college to the tune of $20,000. He lived at home so that made it easier. Next year we will be moving back to Germany and he wants to do another apprenticeship. I’m already relieved there won’t be another bill coming.
Your headline question "How can Germany afford it and not the USA" bears a lot to unpack but after living in the US for more than 35 years (as a German) I may have a simple answer:
The US could afford it but her individualistic (to avoid the term egotistical) culture exacerbated by a phobia of everything "socialist" prevents it. Before I explain, let me say this: any generalization is prone to be inaccurate, so when I write about "Americans" or 'Germans" then I am fully aware that 340 Million Americans or 83 Million Germans respectively do not all think alike just because they hold the same passport, I am merely referring to prevalent attitudes.
In the US most matters are considered issues of one individual, perhaps their family but that is it. Anything else is either considered infringement on personal freedom or socialism. As a consequence people/families are on their own when it comes to care for their (old, sick, very young, etc.) loved ones. Germans (still) have a sense of community that reaches further than parents and grandparents. And so does her governments, be that conservative or liberal (using American terminology here). Germans understand that good education is in the interest of the nation as a whole. Society has a vested interest in a well educated workforce. And btw.: same goes for a healthy population, which explains the superior educational and medical systems in Germany vs. the US.
Now I can already hear some Americans screaming that the US has Harvard, MIT etc. and John Hopkins or the Mayo clinics. This of course is true but irrelevant. These fine institutions are accessible only for a selected few, meaning the super rich while average citizens accrue thousands of dollars in student dept for a mediocre college education and wait 1/2 year for a total hip replacement. The American dream which once included upward mobility is nothing more than a fairy tale.
There is one area where I'm a bit confused about the logic of free tuition in Germany and where I personally would advocate for a change and that is the medical area.
Looking at how high the numerus clausus is in that field and how difficult it is to complete these studies, it's fair to say that it produces top level graduates. But what happens with them? Well, many of them are hired off to high-paying neighbouring countries like Switzerland (who educate far too little people in that field to fulfill their own needs). Don't get me wrong, as a Swiss citizen I'm in no way opposed to them coming to work here and I understand their decision. But I also think that we should educate enough people ourselves and not rely on hiring graduates from Germany. But as a German, I'd be mad that my tax money is used to offer free tuition to students who then up and leave as soon as they are done while many areas in Germany suffer from a real shortage of doctors, especially in the Neue Bundesländer. What I would do is give students two options: either pay for their tuition and work wherever you want after graduation, or study for free and you have to stay and work in Germany for X years after graduation.
There's quite a few programs in the USA (the medical field is one of them, as is teaching) that if you work for 4-5 years in under-served areas then they wipe away your school debt completely. That could be a great incentive program.
@@TypeAshton I think that is a brilliant program where other countries could learn from US. There are always areas that look less appealing and such incentives can really make a difference there.
A real problem is also that a lot of the women do not practice very long after their graduation, as they start a family. And as this is one of the most expensive studies, this causes a shortage of medical staff.
@@urlauburlaub2222 tbh I don't think many Swiss students swap to Germany to save tuition cost. They are not that high to begin with (about 1600 per year) and you can easily get funding for it as well if needed. Most students I know study abroad because of the experience, to improve language skills, or because certain specialised subjects aren't available here.
@@PowerControl We are always guilty: guilty of not getting children, guilty of getting children while being employed. I see what you mean: women shouldn't study, they should get children and stay home. Sorry dude - we have other plans. And if a country isn't able do let us leave our job for one or two baby-years it's a very poor country.
thanks for sharing this info I am strongly considering Germany as destination next ...
A big compliment for your work. When looking at the different educational systems, I'm interested in whether the so-called "duale Studiengang" is also offered in the US? In Germany, this is becoming increasingly important for companies to attract motivated employees. And young people can earn money immediately after graduating from high school.
Nothing is for free. Taxes, taxes and taxes! Something the US is allergic for.
Iam allergic to taxes too and Iam from germany. They tax the shit out of us trust me.
they are triggerd
@@jonaskreuder1817 Um, if you compare all the additional costs, US citizens usually have, it's almost on par with what we pay in taxes.
And, tbh, i'm absolutely ok with what i pay in taxes.
@@peter_meyer
Well the magic term is “private taxes” that Americans are paying.
Expensive low quality groceries.
A short while ago a German channel from LA
showed a glas of jam / marmelade costing 12 / 13 USD
Expensive communication contracts
25% tip for meal at a restaurant, whut?
Homeowner association anyone?
1 liter beer mug at the October fest is considered expensive in Germany, but that’s about what you pay regularly at US sports events.
OK, gas is cheap but the roads and infrastructure are crap.
Ever seen a real pothole on the autobahn?
I don’t need to repeat education and health care costs.
regarding the rather low College-enrollment / tertiary education: Did you include vocational training? This section is rather unique to Germany (+Austria/Switzerland) and it provides not only quality education mostly for free, but oftentimes apprentices are paid during the VET as they actually work for a company. Depending on further qualification and experience, these paths can lead to a BA-equivalent degree (BA professional) or offer entry to a shortened BA programme.
Another excellent video! I consider myself lucky that I never had student loans. And that’s because I got most of my education from German universities. I started at the Universität Hamburg (5 Semesters), then move to Heidelberg (3 Semesters), and finally Tübingen (2 Semesters, before I went on an exchange program to the U.S. (Wittenberg University, Springfield, OH). But that was free for me too as my exchange partner had to pay the U.S. tuition. Then I was invited to study at the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Gettysburg. That was also tuition free for me because of that invitation. That’s where I earned my Master of Divinity. The only degree I actually had to pay for was my Doctor in Ministry degree at the New Brunswick Theological Seminary in New Jersey.
It is also worth mentioning that the semester fee in Germany also includes the mobility fee, which allows students to travel freely by public transportation within their state.
Great video again!
You might want to add that within the EU it is uncommon to charge higher fees for ‚out-of-country‘ students (just certain student grants are only available if you work minimum hours in the country). It‘s different for the UK (and used to be already in place when the UK was part of the EU, as Scotland subsidised Scottish students but charged English/EU students what they would have to pay in the UK, which is a lot compared to basically all other EU countries).
From 1962 to 1968 I attended the University of Washington in Seattle. For two years as a Physics major and then as a Business major (our business studies location was Balmer Hall, which was generally referred to a "Balmer High School".) As a non-resident tuition was $300 a quarter and once I got resident status, $100 a quarter. Dorm living was a lot more, probably close to $2,000 a year. I don't have a good number for books, but the UW bookstore wasn't cheap. There were places to get used books but still pretty expensive for a student with no income. My dad paid all my costs. I did not have any student debt, I took out no loans. My last year was as a graduate student, working on an MBA. I actually got a tuition scholarship.
I studied in the 90s before the semesterticket (free public transportation) which doubled the fee, but it was only about 150 DM per semester (300 DM per year or about 150 Euro per year).
In addition there was the BaFoeg. Students can get this money to concentrate on studying instead of working for living. Depending on the parents income it could be more than 800,- DM per month. Half for loan and the other half for free. After examing the total cost for me was 12000,- DM (6000 Euro) to pay back. After one year you get a list how much have to pay. But you can save a lot, because it depends on the time you need to the money back. If you saved enough money in this year the amount is reduced to the half. So I received about 24000,- DM and had to pay about 7500,- DM at all.
Hi Ashton, interesting topic.
I often heard that the university tuitions in the US are so high, since those universities offers additional services like university sports, gym, clubs (?) and many other activities for a "fulfilling" campus life experience. What is your opionion about that?
There is one thing in my personal view that is too rarely talked about when universities are mentioned: Universities of applied sciences. I have the impression when American students mostly go studying in Germany for a semester at university and not at university for applied sciences. I myself am a student at the latter one. I think studying at university of applied sciences is interesting for those people who want to have a fixed schedule. At German universities you have organized everything by yourself. Another point is the application-oriented research at universities of applied sciences. That could also be a great reason to study at UoAS because the research focuses on concrete development of new technologies and not on theory.
Another question: Will you also talk about the NC in Germany? This is one the most discussed uni topics in Germany. The NC is especially an issue for those who want to study medicine. This has lead to Germans going abroad where they hasn't been always welcomed. In Austria German students are sometimes called as "NC-Flüchtlinge" (NC refugees).